Ep. 14 Pandemic Court Proceedings in Tennessee

The pandemic has created stresses across the court system like never before. Supreme Court Justice Roger Page, former Chief Justice Janice Holder, Judge Russ Parkes and Judge Mary Wagner discuss how to use data and technology as well as alternative dispute resolution strategies to keep courts open and dockets moving. 

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;23;10 - 00;00;45;26
Voice Over
Tennessee. Court Talk is a podcast presented by the Tennessee Supreme Court Administrative Office of the courts. The aim of the podcast is to improve the administration of justice in state courts through education and understanding. The target audience varies and is announced in the beginning of each episode. Welcome to Tennessee Court Top.

00;00;45;29 - 00;01;13;05
Host
Welcome to Tennessee Court talk. I'm your host, Barbara Pax. Today we will be talking about post-pandemic tips and strategies for managing the backlog of cases that have built up during the pandemic. This podcast is intended for judges and attorneys. Our first guest is Tennessee Supreme Court Justice Roger Paige. Justice Paige was appointed to the Supreme Court in 2016 and previously served on the Court of Criminal Appeals and as a circuit court judge in the 26th Judicial District.

00;01;13;06 - 00;01;42;05
Host
Our second guest is former Tennessee Supreme Court Chief Justice Janice Holder, served on the Supreme Court from 1996 until her retirement in 2014. She also served as a circuit court judge in Shelby County, and has almost 25 years of judicial experience. Today, she serves as an alternative dispute resolution neutral and as a rule 31 mediator. Our third guest is Judge Russ Parks, a circuit court judge in the 22nd Judicial District, which includes Giles, Lawrence, Murray and Wayne counties.

00;01;42;11 - 00;01;59;27
Host
He was elected in 2014 and was in private practice prior to joining the bench. And our final guest is Judge Mary Wagner, a circuit court judge in the 30th Judicial District, which is Shelby County, Memphis. She was appointed to the bench in 2016 and was previously in private practice. Welcome to everybody.

00;02;00;02 - 00;02;00;18
Ret. Justice Holder
Thank you.

00;02;00;19 - 00;02;01;03
Judge Parkes
Thank you.

00;02;01;04 - 00;02;01;28
Justice Page
Happy to be here.

00;02;02;03 - 00;02;24;23
Host
So first let me set the stage a little bit. In March of 2020, the pandemic struck, which led to some pending cases being postponed in particular, jury trials, which have been postponed for about 8 or 9 months of the pandemic. There was a small break when they were allowed in the fall. Other cases were not filed and particular eviction cases.

00;02;24;25 - 00;02;44;15
Host
And as a result, 56% of judges across the state are reporting a backlog. And our data shows that while some counties do not have an increase in pending cases, other counties have nearly double the amount of pending cases on their docket compared to the historical data we have from before the pandemic. This is similar to what courts across the country are also reported.

00;02;44;18 - 00;02;49;25
Host
So, Justice Paige, let me start with you. What has the Supreme Court done to respond to this information?

00;02;50;01 - 00;03;15;06
Justice Page
Well, first, of course, when the pandemic started on March 13th of 2020, we put the first order down, limiting in-person hearings and, court stopping jury trials at that point. And we started with virtual hearings and tried to do the best we could to allow court to go on every order that, the Supreme Court filed always said court shall remain open.

00;03;15;09 - 00;03;29;04
Justice Page
Courts were never closed during this pandemic, and I can only give accolades to our trial judges and our general sessions judges and juvenile judges for keeping things going and having a good attitude about it that the whole time.

00;03;29;07 - 00;03;36;00
Host
Great. So, Judge Parkes, let me go to you. How do you know whether you have a backlog or not in the counties that you represent?

00;03;36;03 - 00;04;01;09
Judge Parkes
The EOC provides a memo to the court clerks, which is available to the trial judges, each quarter. And it is a pending caseload report, and it's segregated into Chancery Circuit, civil and criminal. So you can access that as a as a trial judge and determine how many cases are pending less than three years, 3 to 5 and so forth.

00;04;01;12 - 00;04;21;18
Judge Parkes
And I've just created a graph or in a spreadsheet we capture that information a minimum of every six months. And then it it's easy to convert that into a graph to sort of see where there's a trend. If you have in a county pending cases going up or down and you sort of know where you need to, allocate your resources.

00;04;21;20 - 00;04;27;15
Host
So every, every trial judge in the state has access to that information. So tell us how your four counties are doing.

00;04;27;17 - 00;04;50;14
Judge Parkes
The general sessions. Courts in each of our counties have different limitations. Some of them are space limitations. Some of them are security limitations. And so they're very different. So how Lawrence County may have been able to address having cases coming through the General Sessions Court, criminal cases and coming into and the circuit court, may is very different from how Murray County may have been able to address that.

00;04;50;16 - 00;05;08;10
Judge Parkes
So, our trial count or our case pending case count in Murray County is up significantly. Whereas in the other counties, we have either them staying fairly level or actually decreasing during the pandemic during the last year.

00;05;08;13 - 00;05;11;23
Host
So what are some of the strategies you're going to use in Murray County?

00;05;11;24 - 00;05;40;16
Judge Parkes
We reallocate some some judges. I've communicate with Judge Hargrove, and she was the the presiding criminal court judge there. Now, let her know that she can back my cases that I have in Lawrence county up with Murray county cases. That is one way we address the caseload. Another is we have, criminal court, judicial settlement conferences, which are, will preside over where they can refer cases to me.

00;05;40;16 - 00;05;59;10
Judge Parkes
And I can no longer preside as a as the trial judge at that point. But we get the district attorney general or Ada and the defense lawyer together, sometimes with or sometimes not with the with the client. And we discuss the merits of the case. And a lot of times that results in a resolution.

00;05;59;12 - 00;06;06;05
Host
Okay. Judge Wagner, I want you to tell us a little bit about the civil docket in Shelby County. And if you do feel like you have a backlog of cases.

00;06;06;10 - 00;06;27;04
Judge Wagner
So we have some, backlog. But since we're civil, we've done a lot to keep things moving, keep courts open. But the jury cases are where our backlog would be. And so we've just started, trying jury cases again. And we're getting those moving. We're sending we used to send a lot of cases to mediation, but we're sending even more now to mediation.

00;06;27;06 - 00;06;34;23
Judge Wagner
And so we're slowly working our way through that. I don't think it's as bad as maybe we once expected. But there's definitely a backlog with the jury cases.

00;06;34;24 - 00;06;48;18
Host
So tell me a little bit about what you did during the pandemic to keep your docket moving. And in particular, I know in the past you've actually held like, bench trials via zoom. So tell us about that experience and how it worked.

00;06;48;21 - 00;07;07;26
Judge Wagner
So we did a lot of zoom, zoom fatigue is a real thing. But we we did everything in court via zoom, from status conferences and motions is what we started out with. And then as the pandemic continued on, I think we all thought, well, this will be over in a month or so. And it wasn't.

00;07;07;28 - 00;07;26;24
Judge Wagner
We did full multi-day bench trials, via zoom. And in some ways, I think we learned some things and doing those that will help us improve court practices going forward. You had to be more prepared at the beginning. But once we were prepared and ready to go, especially with exhibits, it was very efficient, frankly.

00;07;26;26 - 00;07;32;22
Judge Wagner
Even more so than in-person trials. And so we, we had full bench trials multi days over zoom.

00;07;32;24 - 00;07;37;00
Host
What lessons are you going to take from that now that you're doing your jury trials again?

00;07;37;06 - 00;07;58;09
Judge Wagner
I think a lessons about being prepared, especially with exhibits a lot of times, we'll just do exhibits on the fly. And it really helped with zoom. You we I required the attorneys to mark them in advance, and also exchange them in advance to discuss whether there were going to be objections to admissibility in advance. So that we could deal with the technical aspects of that.

00;07;58;09 - 00;08;09;07
Judge Wagner
And it helped the trial just move a lot more efficiently. And so we can bring those, whether it's on zoom in the future or in the courtroom in the future, to help trials flow faster and more efficient.

00;08;09;10 - 00;08;21;27
Host
With your scheduling. Now, of so many jury trials, do you have any particular strategies that you're doing this year, like what your backlog is, is jury trial, so you just scheduling them one right after another, or sort of what kind of strategy are you using?

00;08;22;02 - 00;08;45;24
Judge Wagner
My main strategy is scheduling orders. I used to only require scheduling orders in the more complex trials, but I'm now requiring scheduling orders in every jury trial. So that we know well in advance if there's the medical proof is not done or if, it's settled that we're going to not need the jury trial. And so we're doing scheduling orders.

00;08;45;24 - 00;08;57;07
Judge Wagner
We're requiring more mediation. We're double booking them. We're doing pretrial conferences in almost every case. So that we're prepared for the differences that a jury trial with Covid looks like.

00;08;57;07 - 00;09;07;16
Host
Great. And then, Justice Holder, why don't you tell us a little bit about, how alternative dispute resolution might be able to help some judges move their dockets along?

00;09;07;19 - 00;09;43;03
Ret. Justice Holder
Well, when I started, well, when Covid started, I had never heard of zoom, so I didn't even know what it was. So I had to learn a lot very quickly. And I found that it's a very effective platform. The first attorney that I, one of the first attorneys I had in, the my first, very first zoom mediation was from Chattanooga, and he got so excited about it because he could stay in Chattanooga and he could have his, his paralegal participate and provide things on the screen.

00;09;43;03 - 00;10;09;06
Ret. Justice Holder
And it it provided a whole different world for him than coming to Memphis by himself and, and engaging in mediation. So one of the things that has happened is that someone who wants a mediation can use anybody, anywhere in Tennessee to get the mediation done. So you're not limited to someone in your jurisdiction, and you're not required. If somebody wanted me to go to Nashville, I don't have to go to Nashville.

00;10;09;06 - 00;10;35;06
Ret. Justice Holder
I can do it virtually. Will that continue? I'm not sure. I think that what we're going to see are hybrid mediations, where part of it will be by zoom, and then part of it will be in person. And I'm starting to see that even now, where the clients may be in the attorneys offices. But the attorneys are in different places with their clients.

00;10;35;09 - 00;11;00;22
Ret. Justice Holder
So I think it's it's very effective. Much like Judge Wagner, I've been doing, bench trials by zoom, and I've found them to be interesting. And there are certain challenges in bench trials. And part of that has to do with, the judicial authority and making sure that the people who see you on the screen know you're a judge and not their buddy, who they can kind of talk to.

00;11;00;22 - 00;11;25;03
Ret. Justice Holder
However they want to, and that's a bit of a challenge. So I'm kind of working on that. But I think there is a lot to be said for, for example, this this week I had two mediations. And in both mediations the attorneys had to make a brief, appearance in circuit court before the mediation. Well, they did it by zoom.

00;11;25;05 - 00;11;43;27
Ret. Justice Holder
So instead of having to travel down to circuit court to make an appearance and then go to the mediation, they could do it by zoom and then get on the mediation by zoom. It's much more efficient that way. So I hope that that that is some of some of the efficiencies will carry over into a post-pandemic world.

00;11;43;28 - 00;11;52;08
Host
Justice Paige, tell us a little bit about how the Supreme Court has supported the use of alternative dispute resolution during the pandemic and afterwards.

00;11;52;10 - 00;12;16;04
Justice Page
Well, the first thing we've done is encourage that it be done. And we've tried to provide all the zoom app around and everything else one would, would need to, do they do those virtually? And, you know, I was a trial judge for almost 14 years, and I can remember very well having a multimillion dollar minor in my, you know, our settlement.

00;12;16;06 - 00;12;39;19
Justice Page
And one set of lawyers was from Atlanta, one from Memphis, one from Nashville. They all drove to Jackson for what amounted to be about a 20 minute hearing. And I think as we go forward, surely that won't happen anymore. Things like that can be done on zoom. But of course, and in further answering your question, the court is all for anything that we can do to make our system more efficient.

00;12;39;21 - 00;13;05;11
Justice Page
Like Judge Wagner said, a lot of things are being done by by zoom during the pandemic. I think those things will continue and they'll make our courts much more efficient and save, clients money, save litigants money. Instead of paying for lawyers to fly around and take depositions. Maybe we won't need to do that anymore. And I realize in some situations, a lawyer needs to see an expert witness face to face.

00;13;05;12 - 00;13;13;09
Justice Page
I get that. But I think we can, stop doing some of that and make the system more efficient and less expensive.

00;13;13;11 - 00;13;20;13
Host
Great. So, Judge Parker, she mentioned, judicial settlements. Tell me how in your judicial district, judicial settlements work?

00;13;20;20 - 00;13;44;07
Judge Parkes
Well, first, how they work are slightly different in criminal cases versus civil cases. I was a mediator. I did a lot of mediations prior to, taking the bench and and so on the civil side, it's similar in the sense that you have litigants and or individuals and lawyers with you, and your goal is to see if the case can resolve.

00;13;44;10 - 00;14;10;20
Judge Parkes
So the goal is the same sometimes in the criminal setting. However, disciplinary rule or the Code of Judicial Conduct, 2.1 or 2.11 specifically says that if a judge participates in a judicial settlement conference, whether it be criminal chancery, civil circuit, civil, you cannot then preside over the over the, the, the trial. It's not just a common sense rule.

00;14;10;20 - 00;14;30;16
Judge Parkes
You don't want to learn what offers were made and then have to consider an attitude or a remitted your motion, or in a criminal case, be called upon the Senate. Someone if you know what offers were on the table before. So I understand the rule and it is. And the way that I read the rule is, is a not a favorable, conflict.

00;14;30;23 - 00;14;34;08
Judge Parkes
And so we're strictly prohibited from then participating in the trial.

00;14;34;11 - 00;14;41;08
Host
So how do you just rotate with other judges? How do you. How do you set up judicial settlement?

00;14;41;10 - 00;15;05;10
Judge Parkes
Judge Allen and I both had done quite a few mediations before. Judge Allen, certainly on the on the more of the divorce chancery side. And so if you take Judge Allen is a wonderful example. I had a multi-day divorce case that was said. The parties advised me, the lawyers, that the they thought another round of of mediation may prove fruitful.

00;15;05;12 - 00;15;28;17
Judge Parkes
But then they ask about Judge Allen, who was a very experienced mediator before coming to the bench, and he actually conducted the mediation. I called to ask, would you could you and he set aside a day and and he got the case resolved. And it kept those it held a litigation expense down. It allowed me to try something else in those and for those 4 or 5 days.

00;15;28;19 - 00;15;54;27
Judge Parkes
And so we know where the hotspots are based on the reports. We know where there's a backlog. And so I make communicate, which I have with Judge Hargrove and Judge Charcoal, who were in the criminal court in, in, Murray County right now. And I said, look, we've we've got this problem. What do you think? And so Judge Hargrove will send me a batch of cases that she has on her her docket.

00;15;55;01 - 00;16;18;13
Judge Parkes
I will communicate with the DA's and the, the defense lawyers, and we'll have settlement conferences on the civil side, sort of the same thing. I did one for Judge Burke, who in the 17th Judicial District, I do a lot of complex civil work. And he called and said, and the I've got a two week nursing home case.

00;16;18;15 - 00;16;32;21
Judge Parkes
They were close in mediation. Maybe a judicial settlement conference would would help. And it led to the resolution of the case, and we were able to again plug in Judge Burke doing something else for those two weeks and trying other cases.

00;16;32;23 - 00;16;38;15
Host
Instead of how those judicial settlement conferences work in Shelby County in your courtroom. Judge Wagner, it's probably.

00;16;38;15 - 00;17;02;08
Judge Wagner
An area we could grow and improve on. We do them, some, but not nearly as routine as it sounds like Judge Parkes does. Those cases where either they, they don't have the funds for mediation or a really difficult case. We will recommend going to use another judge, or they'll ask, can you talk to judge so-and-so to help us and set up a judicial settlement conference?

00;17;02;13 - 00;17;07;19
Judge Wagner
And they usually work. They do. They do very well. We just don't use them as often as maybe we should. And then.

00;17;07;19 - 00;17;16;21
Host
Justice Holder, tell me why. Why? Maybe a sitting judge may not be the best person to be the alternative dispute resolution. Neutral.

00;17;16;22 - 00;17;44;16
Ret. Justice Holder
Well, I'm not going to say that they can't do it because it it's very much something that a judge can do with respect to talking to the parties. The problem is being able to take off the judicial hat and putting on the settlement hat instead, because judges are are tuned to ruling and tuned to making decisions for them, for those parties.

00;17;44;19 - 00;18;18;29
Ret. Justice Holder
And unlike a ruling, what a judge has to do in a settlement conference, or what a mediator has to do in a mediation, is to guide the participants to resolve their own case without too much, input as to how you think it should be done. That's not to say you can't help them evaluate the case and lead them to make their own evaluations and ask people what will be your what's going to be your your your budget going forward?

00;18;19;00 - 00;18;35;01
Ret. Justice Holder
How much are you going to spend going forward? How much? You can ask all sorts of questions that help them evaluate their own case. But, actually telling them what you think a court would do or a jury would do sometimes can be a bit counterproductive.

00;18;35;02 - 00;18;41;17
Host
So what kind of cases? I mean, you do a lot of mediation. So what kind of cases are ripe for mediation?

00;18;41;19 - 00;19;07;09
Ret. Justice Holder
I think anything is is good for mediation and it also depends on where it exists in the continuum of the case. The earlier the time, I think you can say the harder it is to settle. Although I've had a lot of recent mediations, if you are going to do a pre suit mediation, however, you have to do a lot of preparation to provide the mediator with information.

00;19;07;14 - 00;19;32;16
Ret. Justice Holder
I've had pre mediations where the parties have engaged experts for purposes of mediation only, have done all sorts of things that really develop the case so that you have a very good idea of how the case is going to unfold before it's ever filed. So there really aren't cases that aren't suitable, but the attorneys have to work hard to put their cases in a posture where the mediator can help them.

00;19;32;19 - 00;19;46;27
Host
And what about cases? I mean, I think sometimes judges get cases on their dockets that are just, let's say, judgment proof, but it's more to prove a point or they just sort of sit there. What about those type of cases? How can you help as a mediator?

00;19;46;29 - 00;20;10;15
Ret. Justice Holder
I think you can help as a mediator by listening to the parties and letting them have what is essentially a day in court. One of the interesting ones I had several years ago was a couple that were suing two women who they believe defamed them and their family. And the women who were being sued really had no money there.

00;20;10;15 - 00;20;36;13
Ret. Justice Holder
They had counsel who was doing a pro bono. And if there were a judgment that were rendered, nobody would be able to pay it. And what we achieved in the mediation was that the two people acknowledged what they had put the family through in a two page document. They didn't apologize. They acknowledge what the family had gone through and their role in doing what they had done.

00;20;36;15 - 00;20;39;26
Ret. Justice Holder
Signed off on, and everybody signed off on it. And that was the end of it.

00;20;39;29 - 00;21;01;21
Host
And that's something that judge just can't do. It just can't. Or she's someone to apologize. Right. So does parks. Let's talk a little bit about criminal. The criminal docket, the criminal dockets, one of the areas that is backed up the most. So tell us what kind of alternatives you have in the criminal courts to sort of get cases moving along beside, you don't usually use a mediator.

00;21;01;21 - 00;21;05;08
Host
So kind of what kind of what kind of, strategies can you use?

00;21;05;11 - 00;21;32;19
Judge Parkes
Well, we use judicial settlement conferences, which are very similar to mediate civil mediations. The one thing that I think has been very important on the in the criminal side, very much like Justice Holder said, you have to get the two sides talking and you have to, I feel it important in those criminal cases to have each side acknowledge the strengths and the weaknesses of their case.

00;21;32;19 - 00;22;10;00
Judge Parkes
And sometimes it's good for the each to hear the other side acknowledge a weakness in in the other side's case, and then you start bringing them together. So the judicial settlement conferences are something that have been beneficial to us. We have done them a couple of times in the past where I've done a number of those. But the one byproduct of that is the district attorney general and defense lawyers begin talking earlier in a case in hopes of avoiding coming in to me with a judicial settlement conference, and then they become more innovative.

00;22;10;03 - 00;22;31;12
Judge Parkes
And they they come in and they say, well, here's what we're willing to modify our offer to do. Judge. And it may be will reduce this charge, but we want to waive that. We want them to waive the jury. And so they become the lawyers have become very innovative. And in things that they think through in helping resolve a criminal case.

00;22;31;14 - 00;22;37;09
Host
And how do you use the data, in your districts to with the DA's in particular?

00;22;37;11 - 00;23;06;12
Judge Parkes
Well, I have every six I was doing it every six months. Every six months I harvest the data that's supplied by the AOC. And and I put it on a spreadsheet and it tells us how many cases are pending in each court, in each county. And then that's converted to the graph that I spoke of. And if you see it spike up in and I supply that or give that to the district attorney General's office, so they know there's no sense in them having to recreate the work that I've done.

00;23;06;14 - 00;23;33;00
Judge Parkes
And so they know that during this six month period, there's a spike in Murray County or Giles County or whatever county it may be. And so they then can can see where they're going to have a problem, because if if it's a backlog for us, it's a backlog for them to and, and they look at that that that data they have access to it also.

00;23;33;03 - 00;23;54;24
Judge Parkes
And so sharing that data has has really helped. And then you have you sort of figure out, okay, why is there a backlog too. Is it that we haven't been able to get enough cases through General Sessions Court? Is it that this county needs two courtrooms for jury trials now, whereas we just have one now? There's a so you try and figure out why there is a problem.

00;23;54;24 - 00;23;56;10
Judge Parkes
Not just that there is a problem.

00;23;56;11 - 00;24;05;06
Host
Justice page. So how can how how is the Supreme Court sort of you retired and senior judges in relation to the backlog?

00;24;05;08 - 00;24;29;02
Justice Page
Well, like we talked about in the seminar we just completed, we're going to use them, what I call the regular designation procedure by a judge when he or she needs some help contacting our general counsel, Rachel Harmon, to ask for a designation. But we've already right now we have three senior judges, and, we are adding a fourth one in East Tennessee.

00;24;29;02 - 00;24;56;24
Justice Page
Hopefully by 1st of October, 1st September or something like that. So we'll have an extra person helping out. We've also decided that we're going to, hire some retired judges on an hourly rate, at least one for each grand division. And, we have a lot of judges who are retired. I think they really don't want to commit to being a senior judge, but they wouldn't mind going into a district when someone's ill or there's a backlog to help out.

00;24;56;27 - 00;25;19;28
Justice Page
So we're hoping that that will help eliminate the backlog. Like, Judge Parks was talking about, one of the things I can't get a handle on is some of the judicial districts have not had grand juries meeting on a regular basis, and I have not seen the statistics about how many cases are just lingering in general sessions court or between General Sessions and circuit or criminal court.

00;25;19;28 - 00;25;44;24
Justice Page
So I really don't know about how to handle that. But, this has been very interesting for me, listening to everyone else here who's still on the trial bench, because, how did you decide on conferences myself? And, one of the things I would do, like Justice holder said, I know I'm not ancient. Your question, but he they they want to ask the judge how much the case is worth.

00;25;44;26 - 00;26;00;15
Justice Page
I would never answer that question. But what I would do sometimes and say, you know, we've tried 4 or 5 cases in this history very similar to yours. And here's how you can look them up in the clerk's office and see what happened. And sometimes that was very helpful. And I think that was okay to do that.

00;26;00;18 - 00;26;10;19
Host
So let me talk to let's talk a little bit about the pandemic itself. So Judge Parks, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give yourself in March 1st of 2020.

00;26;10;22 - 00;26;48;22
Judge Parkes
Become more tech savvy immediately? We didn't have any idea how long the pandemic would last. And I think that as a trial judge, we were forced fed and and forced to become educated on things that we really probably should have already become educated on, both on the criminal side, in the civil side, as Justice Holder said, you have lawyers from Chattanooga or Knoxville or Memphis who have simple, fairly simple motions that are not on, not going to require testimony.

00;26;48;24 - 00;27;14;05
Judge Parkes
And as long as the pleadings are forwarded to us, it's easy, very easy to allow them to stay in their office. It saves litigants cost, and they argue those via zoom. So becoming more acquainted with the zoom, I think if you told me what's the one thing that I, in retrospect, I would do differently, I would become more acquainted sooner with the use of technology.

00;27;14;09 - 00;27;31;19
Host
Which technology or strategies that you picked up during the pandemic. Are you going to use probably forever for the next couple of years? Is it is it status hearings via zoom? Is it arraignments via zoom? Like which particular types of cases you're like? This has worked really well.

00;27;31;21 - 00;28;13;29
Judge Parkes
Was certainly the motions to compel status conferences, motions for summary judgment arraignments in criminal cases. I called Commissioner Parker's office and said, we're we're transporting a prisoner to Wayne County from DAV County, and that's two people doing a transport. He's coming down here for a simple arraignment that last 15 minutes, and there's security issues. If we could get technology in the prison that would allow us to to to have that arraignment by zoom, it not only is a avoids a safety issue, it's a cost saving issue for the state.

00;28;14;01 - 00;28;45;14
Judge Parkes
We appoint lawyers in a post-conviction relief and the individual is in, East Tennessee. That lawyer has to get in the car, and the EOC has to pay for that lawyer to drive to to East Tennessee, whereas if they had zoom available in the prison, we avoid that cost. And so I think that will be a great thing that comes from this is, is it's not just saving litigants money, it's saving the taxpayers money also.

00;28;45;17 - 00;28;52;03
Host
And Judge Wagner, if knowing what you know now, what advice would you give yourself on March 1st of 2020?

00;28;52;06 - 00;29;10;17
Judge Wagner
I think it would be very similar to judge Parks. I mean, the first thing would be take a deep breath. This isn't going to be over very quickly. I remember that weekend after we got the Supreme Court order sitting at home and researching Zoom and Google Hangout and team meetups because I hadn't heard the word zoom before March 13th of 2020.

00;29;10;20 - 00;29;30;16
Judge Wagner
And, so using that technology and I think, like Justice Holder said, going forward, I don't think Zoom's going away. I think we'll see a lot more hybrid proceedings. I've got a one case now that's a complex health care liability case and plaintiffs lawyers in Chattanooga, and we've done several motion hearings. He's like, judges just saves me a lot of time.

00;29;30;16 - 00;29;49;17
Judge Wagner
If I don't have to drive over there for an hour motion and I have no problem with it, we've now got the equipment in the courtroom that everybody can hear each other just fine with the defense lawyers who like to come in person because they're local. And we do hearings that way, status conferences that take ten minutes. There's no reason for the lawyers from Nashville to drive to Memphis for ten minutes.

00;29;49;17 - 00;30;04;13
Judge Wagner
Status conference. And so, you know, looking back on it, it's take a deep breath, but we're going to be in this for the long haul. And then there's not going back to a normal I have a lawyer sometimes and not so much now. But at the very beginning. Well, judge, we just want to wait until this is over.

00;30;04;13 - 00;30;15;26
Judge Wagner
And no, we're not waiting. Let's figure out how to make this work and how to keep court moving as safely as possible and find new ways to make things better. And I think we've all done that using new resources.

00;30;15;29 - 00;30;21;11
Host
Justice holder, knowing what you know now, what face would you give yourself in March 1st 2020?

00;30;21;13 - 00;30;52;02
Ret. Justice Holder
Well, very, very much what everyone else has said. But I would say this to the judicial system generally, but for this pandemic, we would have made these changes in 20 or 30 years. So while it's been awful, I think we have been forced to examine the way we do business and to to do business in a more effective manner.

00;30;52;05 - 00;31;20;29
Ret. Justice Holder
Roger was not on the court, but I remember the knock down, drag out fight we had over whether to go from legal size paper to short paper. Eight and a half, I love it. I mean, that was a big deal at the time. Those were the kinds of, fights we engaged in. And the pandemic did not allow us to hold back and say, well, we'll just wait until this all blows over and then we'll start back the way we were.

00;31;21;00 - 00;31;36;03
Ret. Justice Holder
We couldn't do that. And and my hope is that we will all learn from this. Take away from it, use what hybrid procedures we need to use and move forward and make the judicial system better.

00;31;36;05 - 00;31;37;19
Host
Great. Justice Page?

00;31;37;23 - 00;31;56;19
Justice Page
Well, I was never, afraid that, people who make up our judicial system wouldn't come through in the clutch. It's like a baseball game. We have a tremendous judiciary here from the lowest municipal judge all the way to the Supreme Court. And everybody worked hard. And maybe I would just have more confidence that it's going to work out.

00;31;56;22 - 00;32;05;17
Host
If if a judge is listening and they're just sitting there with a lot of backlogged cases and they're not quite sure what to do, what would be your couple of pieces of advice?

00;32;05;20 - 00;32;31;07
Judge Parkes
Reach out to other judges. I mean, we did that before the pandemic. I called Chris Kraft. If there was a complicated, criminal matter. I called Bobby Holloway at times. I mean, we I was really surprised when I came on the bench in 2014 how accessible everyone made themselves to help, because I think it's everyone's goal to make the whole judicial system better.

00;32;31;09 - 00;32;46;04
Judge Parkes
So, I would encourage any of them who have a big backlog to call someone who is addressing it. And that's sort of what we've tried to do in addressing this at this conference. And I think that will continue.

00;32;46;04 - 00;33;01;02
Host
And last same question. So Judge Wagner, use your newer to the bench. And we've got quite a few new judges coming on. So for the new judges who might be listening, who are just, you know, I think we've had seven in the last year who were just getting appointed and stepping into the backlog. What would be your best advice for them?

00;33;01;02 - 00;33;15;20
Judge Wagner
I think I'd hearken back to what we said in law school. It's a marathon, not a sprint. So slow and steady, you're going to have to take it one bite at a time. And rely on your colleagues, whether they're the colleagues that join the bench when you did or colleagues that have been on the bench 20 or 30 years.

00;33;15;22 - 00;33;27;17
Judge Wagner
Everyone is so helpful and willing to answer questions or even bounce ideas off of, and using all of those resources to, just take care of business, but don't get overwhelmed.

00;33;27;17 - 00;33;31;27
Host
Thank you all for joining us. And thank you for listening to this edition of Tennessee Court Talk.