Appointed Counsel Volume 13: Fiscal Services

The indigent services team relies on several other departments to accomplish its goal of getting attorneys paid for their services, but in this episode, Joe Byrd sits down with two of the most important people in the process. The fiscal department of the Administrative Office of the Courts join Appointed Counsel to discuss best practices in filing a claim for expenses and the different terms used to define the services of an attorney in indigent representation. 

Transcript

00;00;03;01 - 00;00;36;24
Host
Welcome to Appointed Counsel podcast presented by Tennessee Court Talk. For those involved in indigent representation, I'm Joe Byrd, Lead Attorney for the indigent Services team of the Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts. Episode 13 Supplier Identification and Finance and Administration. On today's podcast, we have special guests from the Fiscal Division of the Administrative Office of the Courts. Today, Shoni Akane, the Accounting Manager here at the AOC and Tasha Furnace, who's one of our accountants, are here, and we're glad to have you, Shoni, maybe introduce yourself.

00;00;36;24 - 00;00;38;03
Host
Tell us a little bit about yourself.

00;00;38;04 - 00;00;57;00
Shoni Akene
Sure. Thank you. Joe. So as Joe mentioned, I'm the 
 Accounting Manager for the Administrative Office of the Courts. So in a nutshell, my job is to oversee all of the accounting functions for the agency, which spans from vouchers, payment cards, travel expense documents, anything accounting related. I am your girl.

00;00;57;02 - 00;01;01;16
Host
And you've actually worked for the state for a number of years, and different agencies, so you know how these things work.

00;01;01;17 - 00;01;12;04
Shoni Akene
I do, yes, yes, yes. And so it's been it's going on 11 years and a couple more months. And so, so yes, as we like to say, we live in an accrual world as an account.

00;01;12;06 - 00;01;22;09
Host
And so yak yak yak great joke. So Tasha tell us a little bit about yourself. You're a little more you're a little newer to the Administrative Office of the Courts.

00;01;22;10 - 00;01;39;08
Tasha Furnace
I am I've been here for seven months now and I transferred here from Wichita, Kansas. I am an accountant. As you said earlier, I'm responsible for the supplier and maintenance process for the agency. And I also review the indigent claims once they have been batched into Edison.

00;01;39;10 - 00;01;45;21
Host
And that's a big role, right? I mean, the, indigent representation is a big portion of the AOC’s budget, isn't it?

00;01;45;24 - 00;01;47;08
Shoni Akene
It really is a big portion.

00;01;47;12 - 00;02;15;21
Host
Yeah. And it's, it's a process to I don't think people understand all the details in the process that sometimes it's not a creation of the AOC, but it's required because these are tax dollars. We have to be good stewards of them. Plus, we know the comptroller, will potentially come in and do an audit from time to time, and they're going to make sure that we're doing our job and applying the rules and processing these claims.

00;02;15;21 - 00;02;40;20
Host
Right. As a matter of fact, the AOC processes between 80,000 and 100,000 claims a year. Last year, I think it was up to nearly 96,000 claims, in the fiscal year. That's so somewhere between 2500 and 3000 claims per week come in from all 95 counties across the state. Circuit Court, General Sessions Courts, Juvenile Courts.

00;02;40;23 - 00;02;59;23
Host
And so I think it's sometimes easy for attorneys to think, well, I submitted my claim to the AOC and now fiscal. You're cutting the check. Why aren't you just cutting a check for me? But there's a process for us to review the claims, and then there's a process for, for a payment to be made, whether it's a direct deposit or for a check to be written.

00;02;59;23 - 00;03;02;16
Host
Right. I mean, fiscal doesn't cut a check, right?

00;03;02;17 - 00;03;24;17
Shoni Akene
That's correct. And so, as Joe stated, that fiscal doesn't cut the checks. So Joe's team, they graciously examine all the claims by ensuring that everything is correct in regards to the Supreme Court rules and regulation. And once that occurs, once they are, approvals have been decided upon. Those claims batch into the state's accounting system, which is called Edison.

00;03;24;19 - 00;03;56;09
Shoni Akene
Edison pretty much holds all the accounting records for the state. So a copy of the claim does follow. Well, actually, it comes into Edison. So these claims batch into Edison in a process called a voucher. So the fiscal depart or a fiscal’s responsibility regarding the voucher is to review the vouchers to ensure that we are complying with different guidelines set forth by the Department of Finance and Administration, whose main responsibility is to oversee accounting for the entire state.

00;03;56;14 - 00;04;22;27
Shoni Akene
So once fiscal has did our part in reviewing and when we say review, we're ensuring that, different aspects of the voucher is correct, i.e. the math is mathing, the supplier ID is right, the remittance address is correct, then we provide a set of approvals. Once those approvals are provided by fiscal, those vouchers batch overnight into a payment queue if you want to call it that way.

00;04;22;29 - 00;04;40;10
Shoni Akene
And that queue is released the next morning by the Department of Treasury into a payment. And that payment normally is released in regards to a either EFT or electronic funds transfer or a paper check. But it depends on what the claimant decides in regards to their payment method.

00;04;40;12 - 00;05;00;09
Host
Yeah, so let's break down time wise. Right. So because we only have eight auditors, we have to process those claims. And our goal is always from the time the judge approves them until we basically batch them, as you said into Edison and Edison is the pervasive system across the state. It's it's the for instance, those of us on state payroll, right?

00;05;00;09 - 00;05;07;09
Host
I mean, our our payroll is processed into Edison or if we're going to get, reimbursement of expenses, those kinds of things.

00;05;07;09 - 00;05;08;07
Shoni Akene
And and that's great.

00;05;08;14 - 00;05;24;11
Host
So, so in other agencies, they have a system, they won't have an A cap, but they'll have some sort of system that has to interface with Edison. That's correct. And there's a, there's a, there's a division that kind of takes care of the technology side of that, that involves them STS or something like.

00;05;24;11 - 00;05;37;22
Shoni Akene
Yes, the Strategic Technology Solutions Division, which is actually a part of FNA as well. They take care of ensuring that those interfaces work correctly in regards to a cap, which is for which the AOC handles and Edison.

00;05;37;22 - 00;05;55;17
Host
And so and they're great to work with. We've we've worked with several people, from STS and and so we go through it. A cap has its own issues that none of my listeners are that's lost on any of my listeners. They know that a cap we do have some complications sometimes with a cap, but then it has to interface then.

00;05;55;17 - 00;06;19;11
Host
And this batching process is something that, you're talking about goes through Edison. So if our process takes about 30 days because we, we, we have we try to do the claims in the date order that they're received. The process of fiscal doesn't necessarily take too many days unless there's some issue that comes up where a claim, gets flagged for some reason.

00;06;19;13 - 00;06;38;17
Host
And then then it's up to FNA through that, through their process. And I usually say to, to everyone, I anticipate it taking 7 to 10 days from FNA. Now, though, if they choose to have a check sent, it's not just FNA, but now you add on the postal service.

00;06;38;20 - 00;06;39;21
Shoni Akene
That's very true. Yeah.

00;06;39;21 - 00;07;03;25
Host
Right. And we've seen some where we've had to cancel checks and have checks reset at. No fault of, of the AOCs or of that of FNA, but they get lost in the mail and, and then, and then it gets complicated whenever the checks do finally show up, if the attorney accidentally deposits those checks. Right. That can really be a hassle.

00;07;03;25 - 00;07;04;23
Shoni Akene
Yes, yes.

00;07;04;23 - 00;07;27;02
Host
So, that doesn't happen for the number of claims that we have, percentage wise, that doesn't happen. But it's it's a fairly complex situation. When it does happen, I mean, sometimes I know people might get a little impatient with us in terms of trying to fix a problem. But, you know, I think that they just they just have to understand the process.

00;07;27;02 - 00;07;49;14
Host
And it still is a process to not just protect, to be good stewards of the taxpayer dollars, but also to make sure that there's checks and balances in the system. That's great. As a matter of fact, Shoni and I have become friends over the 20 months or so that I have been here, almost two years. And, I don't think you'll be offended when I say Shoni has a little bit of an obsessive compulsive side.

00;07;49;14 - 00;07;50;10
Host
Would you agree with that?

00;07;50;14 - 00;07;53;16
Tasha Furnace
I would agree 100% there.

00;07;53;19 - 00;08;18;21
Host
That Shoni is good at is keeping a, a basically a tracking of what happened in the emails and everything, and sometimes some, some attorneys can get lost in it. So. So what you all may not know is, you know, most of us who go to law school, we didn't go to be business administrators. Right. So right off the bat, it's okay.

00;08;18;21 - 00;08;33;24
Host
We have to accept the billable hour, but then we have to we have to do this business administration on in our office, and we have to work with things like a cap. And then we have to deal with this accounting side of things, which it becomes frustrating.

00;08;33;24 - 00;08;34;09
Shoni Akene
It does.

00;08;34;13 - 00;08;56;26
Host
And we can understand that for anybody. Right. And for me too, I mean, certainly accounting was not part of, my life though, though, though, though to use your joke, sometimes my world might be a cruel one. So, now, now the attorneys will hear me talk a little bit about the comptroller's office. I think I said that earlier.

00;08;56;29 - 00;09;00;24
Host
The comptroller is not part of the, finance and administration or what we call FNA is it?

00;09;00;28 - 00;09;23;05
Shoni Akene
No. There are two totally separate entities. So when you think of FNA so, you know, they both maintain oversight in regards to the state. So the so I guess the comptroller's office is ensuring that I guess you could say they're ensuring that you they are the laws and the provisions that are set forth by the state are being enforced, whether or not, you know, these different rules or guidelines that they are enforcing it.

00;09;23;05 - 00;09;49;21
Shoni Akene
And by enforcing it, that means that you're doing the correct paperwork. You're following the correct provisions FNAs main role is to ensure that they are maintaining financial oversight over the state. So that means that money is going where it should be going, and it is being appropriately accounted for as well. So I think of them as two totally different entities, but they have to marry well together in order for the job to be done.

00;09;49;24 - 00;09;52;28
Host
And, and from the AOC, we have to work with both sides.

00;09;52;29 - 00;09;53;14
Shoni Akene
That's correct.

00;09;53;14 - 00;09;54;13
Host
As any state agency does.

00;09;54;17 - 00;09;55;28
Shoni Akene
That's correct. Yes.

00;09;56;01 - 00;10;15;24
Host
So when these things are, when these claims are batched over, into these vouchers, it might be easy for the attorneys to think of them. There's a function in a cap that that, allows them to print a convenience copy. It's sort of a summary of the claim. That's what FNA actually they get. They get like that summary copy.

00;10;15;24 - 00;10;38;25
Host
Right. The convenience copy. And now we don't have to. We don't have to have the, the personal identification, off of the orders because we're not shipping the orders over. But whenever there is something that might have, that has to go over with the claim, we still the attorneys, and we still have to make sure that, all personal identifying information is redacted, right?

00;10;38;25 - 00;10;39;18
Shoni Akene
Yes. That's great.

00;10;39;18 - 00;10;59;02
Host
That's what I was thinking. So, All right, so, Tasha, you may be able to to to chime in here a little bit more because of what you do. Because one of the things that I always tell attorneys is, is the number one reason your claim gets, delayed in processing is, is when we have to return it.

00;10;59;02 - 00;11;24;17
Host
And that can take a couple of weeks going back and forth. Like, for instance, I can't I don't get to look at my queue every day for complex and extended. I just my schedule doesn't allow me to do that. But a huge time drain, in terms of claims, is when there's a problem with supplier ID, can you walk us through a little bit about supplier ID information and, the W9’S a little bit?

00;11;24;17 - 00;11;27;11
Host
Just give us a general overview of some of that.

00;11;27;13 - 00;11;40;18
Tasha Furnace
Okay. The, the supplier ID if Shoni and correct me if I'm wrong. When I think about the supplier ID, I think about it as being a, an identification in our accounting system to identify that vendor. Would that be correct?

00;11;41;01 - 00;11;56;06
Shoni Akene
That is correct. But it's associated more so specifically with a tax ID. So if you have two different tax IDs you'll have two different supplier IDs. So it is a very unique identification number that is associated with one tax ID okay.

00;11;56;06 - 00;12;12;13
Host
Now remember I've attorneys don't take account and they don't necessarily like me. I'm confessing me to I don't I didn't get into this to be a business administrator. But when you say a tax ID number, we're talking basically about a Social Security number or, an employee identification number. Yes.

00;12;12;17 - 00;12;32;12
Shoni Akene
So, Social Security number, an EIN, an I10, which is a number that is for individual that may not be, a legal resident of the United States. So it's any type of tax ID that is used to file taxes. And so, so anything that could be used in, in it's also dealing with foreign documents as well. So yes.

00;12;32;15 - 00;12;53;14
Host
So we say in every monthly newsletter we put a section down that says understand that, if you make a change in your supplier identification address, in a cap, it still has to be done in it. It's not that doesn't automatically change it, in FNA. Right. Help us out on that to explain what that means. What what are we talking.

00;12;53;14 - 00;13;20;03
Shoni Akene
So as Joe stated. So a cap in well, a cap, which is the system that the engineer claims go through, it has to interface with Edison. So when it interfaces, it has to be like a handshake. Okay. So whatever's in a cap normally batches over to Edison. So if it batches over into Edison and that individual has changed their address in a cap and it's not the correct thing in Edison, Edison will automatically stop the payment.

00;13;20;10 - 00;13;41;12
Shoni Akene
So it's more so done as a security measure. We don't want payments to go to the wrong individuals. So if you've change your address in a cap and it batches over into Edison and we see that claim and there is an inconsistency, you will reach out to the supplier. We want to ensure that their payment is correctly going to the correct place, whether or not it's a bank or whatever.

00;13;41;12 - 00;13;42;07
Shoni Akene
And so.

00;13;42;10 - 00;13;55;14
Host
So so you've used two terms that we need to define, okay. No, it's just that it's kind of inside baseball for you bean counters I mean, you okay. Supplier and vendor, attorneys don't think of themselves as a vendor.

00;13;55;16 - 00;14;12;13
Shoni Akene
It's suppliers. So it's it's something that's so the state years ago, and I think this, so supplier and vendor is something that is interchangeable. And so, so a supplier is a vendor. So I think of a supplier or someone who is, the state is either contracting to do services or they're doing services on behalf of the state.

00;14;12;13 - 00;14;21;02
Shoni Akene
So it's one of the same, you know, you'll hear some individuals refer to it as a vendor. You hear some individuals refer to it as a supplier, but it's tomato tomato.

00;14;21;09 - 00;14;37;14
Host
All right. So when you say supplier ID supplier information what is supplier information that's important Tasha. What is that. What are we talking about. The information of a supplier I think we've covered tax ID but what what are what other issues are, are part of that supplier information.

00;14;37;18 - 00;14;57;17
Tasha Furnace
The supplier information I guess you will it will be the address. The remittance address is very important. As Shoni mentioned earlier, we need to make sure that is aligned with with a cap, whether or not that supplier ID is active or inactive. That can happen. It can get deactivated for several reasons. One of those reasons could be if the remittance address is incorrect.

00;14;57;19 - 00;14;58;21
Tasha Furnace


00;14;58;23 - 00;15;16;02
Shoni Akene
Yeah. It could, it could be a lot of factors, like Tasha said. And when we get into the remittance address not getting into the weeds, it could be if if the supplier has changed firms. We have a lot of ACap attorneys that work at different firms. So there so when you're thinking about your we say remittance address, when you're thinking about where your payment is going, okay.

00;15;16;02 - 00;15;34;14
Shoni Akene
Where have you directed your payment to go to. So if you want that payment to go to your house and it's in Edison or it's in a cap and you have it is in your house, it needs to match that in Edison. If you have that payment to go to your accounting firm, care of you, if you've change firms, we need to change that over in Edison.

00;15;34;22 - 00;15;56;20
Shoni Akene
So when we say remittance we're saying where are we remitting? Where are we sending that payment to. So I would say that the the remit it's address is correct. It has to be correct. The supplier ID and the tax classification. So we have attorneys that sometimes may change their tax classification. They may go from an individual to a partnership.

00;15;56;26 - 00;16;15;14
Shoni Akene
So those things have to be a match. And it's it's important to be a match because and during tax season 1090 nines are sent out based on the information that is on file. So we don't want them to have any trouble spelling their taxes. So we want to ensure that we're doing our part to make sure it's correctly recorded in Edison.

00;16;15;16 - 00;16;27;23
Host
And sometimes what gets frustrating to two attorneys is when they find out we put them in our on our side in modified status, which essentially means we're not processing claims, but they don't understand we're doing that.

00;16;27;25 - 00;16;29;00
Shoni Akene
As a safe measure. Yeah.

00;16;29;01 - 00;16;46;18
Host
To make sure claims aren't getting paid out to someone else because then they need to. Then we have to unravel it. They have to unravel part of that. And I think what you said that it's it's not just moving from firm, the firm, but even if the attorney says, okay, I'm going to incorporate is a professional limited liability corporation.

00;16;46;18 - 00;16;48;20
Host
Now I have an EIN. Well that's a change.

00;16;48;23 - 00;16;49;11
Shoni Akene
That's very true.

00;16;49;12 - 00;16;59;10
Host
It may be going to your same address, but now that because the information on that, on that, W9 form is going to be where that 1099 is going.

00;16;59;11 - 00;17;00;05
Shoni Akene
That's great.

00;17;00;07 - 00;17;21;29
Host
So all of that has to match. And so is important as that is in the time delay that that can cause, because we're in line with all the other state agencies when supplier maintenance is trying to make these changes. Right. We don't we don't get to bump up. You know, I've had some attorneys say, can you put in an expedited request?

00;17;22;02 - 00;17;27;00
Host
But if if FNA and supplier maintenance, which is part of FNA I think.

00;17;27;03 - 00;17;28;10
Shoni Akene
That’s correct. They are a division within FNA.

00;17;28;11 - 00;17;48;09
Host
If they were doing expedited for agencies, they would never get anything that everybody they have to take them as they come. So in order to avoid that right. What's the best advice we can give attorneys? And I always say this at the end of the year, because at the end of the year we've got to put a deadline because those 1099 forms are going to go out.

00;17;48;09 - 00;18;07;16
Host
And if they get kicked back to FAA, they're going to immediately be put on hold and they're going to be put in modified status. So what's the best advice we can give for attorneys? I always tell them, you gotta you gotta follow those instructions on the W9. You got to keep the information updated. But can you give them any general where who should they contact?

00;18;07;16 - 00;18;30;06
Shoni Akene
And I would I would say the best advice that I could give them is, is kind of like a doctor's office. If something has change with them, we need to know. So if their address is changed, we need to know so that we can ensure that everything is matching. If it doesn't match a cap, we'll put you in a modified status, but for will also deactivate the supplier ID, which is a even bigger cumbersome process.

00;18;30;08 - 00;18;53;14
Shoni Akene
And I would say even if it doesn't match and something has changed in you, send over your W9, make sure you are make sure you're submitting the correct version of the W9, which is the 2024 version, and make sure you're feeling it out based on the instructions, and make sure you provide a hand signature on the W9. And if you can do that, then nine times out of ten we can get you squared away quicker than normal.

00;18;53;14 - 00;19;04;21
Host
And so yeah, I have some attorneys that they don't understand why it has to be a wet signature, but that's the fastest, most efficient way because there has to be a certification or something that they try to do. Yes. Adobe Signature.

00;19;04;21 - 00;19;22;27
Shoni Akene
Yes. Yes. And so and so there's some type of so so supplier maintenance does accept digital signatures. But if you do it through them then you have to do the submission yourself through some prior maintenance. So you don't have a person that you're speaking through. You have to submit it in a queue. And then it has to pass some type of validation check that they have.

00;19;22;27 - 00;19;33;08
Shoni Akene
So so most individuals there Adobe is not passing that validation check. So just to shorten the process, we ask that they do a wet signature so that we can go ahead and expedite the process.

00;19;33;14 - 00;19;55;20
Host
And you are so great to help us because you know, from our side on the audit team, we're not we don't know all the ins and outs of the W9s. And Tasha helps us and she she connects with one of our staff members, Alyssa Hudson. But I think we actually we will send them, a forum or something with some instructions, right?

00;19;55;21 - 00;20;13;04
Tasha Furnace
Yes. Normally, usually when, they get ready to update their information or supply already or, register for a supplier ID will request a W9. And Alyssa, she'll normally send the W9 directly to the W9 email box or they'll send directly to us to the W9.

00;20;13;07 - 00;20;21;17
Host
And isn't there there's a W9 email box that we use, right, that we have set up to handle all that. And then I guess you and Alyssa kind of.

00;20;21;20 - 00;20;37;07
Tasha Furnace
We kind of go, you know, interchangeable kind of hand in hand. We work together with the attorneys to make sure that the W9s are filled out correctly. Making sure that, like we say, that the signatures on there that the tax classifications are correct, that the remittance addresses are correct.

00;20;37;09 - 00;20;57;07
Host
One last thing, and I think this is really just, a note of explanation. Sometimes when attorneys, they get an email advice, sometimes on the vouchers, on what they're getting paid for and they don't, they don't see all the individual claims that are related to that voucher, but they don't understand that the voucher is actually produced by FNA.

00;20;57;09 - 00;21;10;02
Host
It's not something internal. So we don't have that. But, we how can we, how can we help them when they don't see something that's in that voucher? What's the best way?

00;21;10;05 - 00;21;29;24
Shoni Akene
So so it just depends on the process that they want to do. So supplier maintenance does offer the process where they can have their own access to Edison, but it would be on their side. So if they are on the supplier side versus the state side. So if a supplier wants that transparency to see when their payments are pending, when their payments are coming, what a voucher.

00;21;29;24 - 00;21;46;11
Shoni Akene
What you know, the details of the voucher, they can contact us and we can get them the information where they can get their own log in. And to be honest, I feel like that sometimes makes it a little bit easier on them because they know what's coming, what's in the queue, what I mean, so it's more of a transparent process.

00;21;46;13 - 00;22;11;18
Host
And of course, I do know, like I said, attorneys, we don't get into this to do to become administrators of businesses. And that's just another sign in for some attorneys and another another password to remember, you know, and they won't take my mother's name, middle name for her big name anymore. So, I get when they don't want to do that, but if they can just sort of transition into doing that, all of that information really is more at their fingertips, isn't it?

00;22;11;18 - 00;22;25;29
Shoni Akene
Is. It is. And so yeah, it's an easy it's a very, very easy process. And to be honest, when you if to be honest I my understanding is that if you have that sign on, if you want to, they can also initiate the change you to change your own address as well. But then it goes hand in hand.

00;22;25;29 - 00;22;35;12
Shoni Akene
If they change your address with supplier maintenance, they have to make sure that they change it with a cap as well because it has to be a match. And so so I just feel like it offers a little transparency to the process.

00;22;35;14 - 00;22;52;05
Host
Well, and I appreciate you guys being here because I do like to always point out and it's not FNA they are only doing what they're supposed to be doing following the Internal Revenue Services. But when we try to get them to get these W9s filled out properly and everything, it's not us being particular. Right?

00;22;52;08 - 00;23;08;15
Shoni Akene
It's not. It really isn't it. They have a they have an obligation to ensure that these documents are filled out correctly. And so and like Tasha said, you know, just make sure that you're filling it out. Make sure you're not correcting it. Not why. Think of it as a legal document. You know, it's something that you have to treat.

00;23;08;15 - 00;23;19;27
Shoni Akene
They have to keep on record. So God forbid if something happens, you know, the IRS wants a copy of it. We have to be able to present that, and it has to be unaltered in its most original form, filled out correctly.

00;23;19;29 - 00;23;27;26
Host
And you said if they do want to get that access to Edison, they can contact us. Do they just contact a particular email address here?

00;23;27;28 - 00;23;45;29
Shoni Akene
Yeah. They can contact the W9 email W9.help@tncourts.gov. And I feel like Alyssa may have a set of the instructions as well. And so and we have a set of instructions that supplier maintenance has provided to us to be able to distribute to suppliers. And we'll make sure we get that information over to us.

00;23;45;29 - 00;24;10;01
Host
And I think all of those links are actually on the TNcourts.gov website on the indigent team. And I think it's also on the a kept landing page where they can find links for or those email addresses. So, well, listen, I appreciate you both being here today. For more information, check out the Indigent Representation web page at tncourts.gov.