Vol 15: How Overclaims Are Flagged

In this episode of Appointed Counsel, Joe Byrd is joined by Jasper Beard, a compliance officer on the AOC's Indigent Services team. Joe and Jasper's discussion is all about attorneys submitting activities that exceed 24 hours of work in the same day. Learn when overclaims are flagged, how to fix an overclaim status as an attorney and Jaspers approach to correcting over claim status's with attorneys across the state. 

Transcript

00;00;03;03 - 00;00;30;10
Host
Welcome to Appointed Counsel, a podcast presented by Tennessee Court Talk. For those involved in indigent representation, I'm Joe Byrd, Lead Attorney for the Indigent Services Team of the Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts. Episode 15 over claim audit. Well, the podcast today is on that topic over claim audits. I know so many attorneys don't like to hear about an over claim audit.

00;00;30;12 - 00;00;44;25
Host
And I have a special guest here today from the indigent services team who's with me, to discuss this issue. Jasper Beard, Jasper is our compliance officer on our team. Jasper, good to have you here. We're glad to have you on the podcast.

00;00;44;27 - 00;00;48;06
Jasper Beard
I'm glad to be here. And hello to everyone.

00;00;48;08 - 00;01;06;26
Host
So they know you by emails? And maybe a few phone calls. But most of the listeners right to this podcast are attorneys who take appointed cases. So tell us a little bit about what you do and your work for the Indigent Services team. What kinds of functions do you do? What are the things you work on?

00;01;07;00 - 00;01;14;12
Jasper Beard
I work on over claims, interpreter claims, court reporter claims and time log billing.

00;01;14;14 - 00;01;38;19
Host
A lot of attorneys may not know that we actually do administrate. The interpreter claims they're not paid under rule 13. They're paid under another rule. Under the Tennessee support. Tennessee Supreme Court rules. But, the AOC has to process those claims. And so you review those claims like, the other auditors review, dependency neglect claims or non-capital, criminal cases, right?

00;01;38;29 - 00;01;39;05
Host
That's correct.

00;01;39;12 - 00;02;02;00
Host
Claims. And, and in fact, Jasper has, a job that's difficult because there's different rules that apply to interpreters, on mileage and how we recently changed the in county mileage for attorneys. But that doesn't apply, for interpreters. And they have a basic amount of billing that they can do, for so many hours.

00;02;02;00 - 00;02;09;23
Host
And it's that's not something that is allowed for attorneys. So you have to think kind of different ways. The other thing you said that you do is court reporters.

00;02;09;24 - 00;02;11;00
Jasper Beard
Yes, sir.

00;02;11;03 - 00;02;32;06
Host
There are times that, I guess the that that the attorney who's appointed, they need to preserve the record, maybe of a preliminary hearing or something, or if there's a deposition and they have to hire court reporters and they get prior approvals. And, you know, when those claims come in the invoices, is that. Is that what you're talking about?

00;02;32;06 - 00;02;51;18
Host
That you. Yes, sir. Matter of fact, we have an entire podcast that I had with Lisa Angel talking about, court reporters and and how to use them because they're different than any other kind of expense under section five of rule 13. And most of my listeners know what I mean by rule 13. So but let's talk about this over claim thing that you do.

00;02;51;21 - 00;03;17;11
Host
My understanding is, is some years back, the, comptroller's office did an audit, and it was before my time and yours. So this predates us, and it predates a lot of the people who are at the AOC. And it wasn't anything that anyone was doing wrong, but the comptrollers office came in and in an audit made a finding that, our system, a cap, wasn't, allowing us to track when somebody was billing.

00;03;17;13 - 00;03;35;25
Host
A lot of hours on a day. So how did we know we weren't overbilling? And so, a cap was changed to flag claims. In what? We'll just what we call internally our inside baseball is over claim status. Tell us, what are the kinds of times that the, claim is flagged as an over claim.

00;03;36;01 - 00;03;47;11
Jasper Beard
Over claims that normally flag when an attorney bills over eight hours in court on on a given day, or when the attorney bills 12 hours total on a given day.

00;03;47;13 - 00;04;06;20
Host
Okay. So like in court time, most of our listeners will know what we mean. That time in front of the judge or, arguing the case in front of the jury. And so it's over eight hours and then 12 hours in a day. So we know attorneys who work burning the candle at both ends. They're going to work well over 12 hours.

00;04;06;20 - 00;04;11;19
Host
So this is a common thing, especially the out of court 12 hours in a day, right?

00;04;11;20 - 00;04;12;09
Jasper Beard
Correct.

00;04;12;12 - 00;04;17;23
Host
Now, I'm assuming, though, that eight hours of in court time, that would be a little less regular, wouldn't it?

00;04;18;00 - 00;04;19;10
Jasper Beard
That's quite normal.

00;04;20;01 - 00;04;22;03
Host
Over eight hours a day or under eight hours?

00;04;22;03 - 00;04;22;16
Jasper Beard
Under eight hours a day.

00;04;22;22 - 00;04;41;03
Host
Yeah, right. I mean, it would be uncommon for them to work over eight in court hours. You'd have to be in, like, some trial that right? Right. Or something like that. So, now what I understand happens is, is when a claim comes in, it goes to you first, before it will go down to the auditors.

00;04;41;03 - 00;04;41;21
Host
Is that right?

00;04;41;22 - 00;04;42;21
Jasper Beard
That's correct.

00;04;42;23 - 00;04;53;07
Host
And, I've, I've explained to some attorneys that that's really to their advantage because sometimes working out the over claim, depending on how many hours it is, might take us a little bit of time. Right.

00;04;53;13 - 00;04;53;27
Jasper Beard
That's correct.

00;04;54;04 - 00;05;00;25
Host
Okay. So accept flags. Claims. As as an over claim. So what's the first thing you do?

00;05;00;27 - 00;05;04;02
Jasper Beard
The first thing I do is send the attorney an email.

00;05;04;04 - 00;05;09;29
Host
Do the attorneys get the same email requesting information? The same for everybody.

00;05;10;06 - 00;05;13;15
Jasper Beard
That depends on the number of hours they have billed.

00;05;13;19 - 00;05;19;24
Host
If it's only, like an hour over the 12, or if it's, an hour for eight in court hours, what happens then?

00;05;19;25 - 00;05;25;02
Jasper Beard
If there's an hour over an an hour or, eight? I just ask for a sworn statement.

00;05;25;04 - 00;05;34;00
Host
Okay. And by the way, a sworn statement is the same as an affidavit under the under the rules. So they. So you actually send them a copy of that.

00;05;34;03 - 00;05;34;12
Jasper Beard
I do.

00;05;34;14 - 00;05;44;19
Host
Affidavit. So for a lot of attorneys that I know, and I think our thresholds through, if it's three hours over, the limit, you only ask for a sworn statement, right?

00;05;44;23 - 00;05;45;03
Jasper Beard
Correct.

00;05;45;05 - 00;05;53;04
Host
Yes. And basically that sworn statements. Just saying, I worked these hours, that I put into the into the system, right?

00;05;53;18 - 00;06;00;05
Jasper Beard
That's correct. I work these hours and there will be more hours billed on this date, or there will be no more hours built on this particular date.

00;06;00;05 - 00;06;05;23
Host
Right? And if I'm not mistaken, you send them a copy of this over claim report, is that right?

00;06;05;23 - 00;06;14;07
Jasper Beard
Yes, sir. I send them a copy because a lot of them. I don't know why, but they don't know how many hours they've billed on that particular day.

00;06;14;10 - 00;06;33;29
Host
Well I kind of know, I, I think, it surprises them because acap has no way of tracking and going through and looking at, looking at particular days. They the attorneys don't have the opportunity to run a report and see what happened. You're actually running a report for a particular day, and it might have five, six, ten claims.

00;06;34;05 - 00;06;57;05
Host
That had hours. So for the attorney it might sneak up on them. Right. They're just putting they can be taking copious notes of what they're doing and they're putting in their hours. And they have no idea that it's actually accumulated over eight hours in that day. Now they'll know. They'll know that that was a long trial day, or they'll know that they were working at the office till 9:00 that night or whatever.

00;06;57;12 - 00;07;20;13
Host
But they haven't really thought through that. The total hours that they put from five claims or six claims exceeded eight in court hours or 12 hours in a full day. So and I have also found that sometimes attorneys don't take time to read that report that you send them. First of all, because it's just some attorneys get frustrated and I understand their frustration.

00;07;20;13 - 00;07;30;21
Host
But they just get frustrated. In fact, you know, if they'll take a minute and just look at it. I think the majority of the over claims are for less than three hours, right?

00;07;30;22 - 00;07;37;26
Jasper Beard
That is correct. Which is just basically returning a sworn statement. And then that closes the audit.

00;07;37;28 - 00;07;45;13
Host
All right. So all they have to do, they don't have to go to a notary. They just have to sign the sworn statement, fill in the information and scan it and return it to you in an email.

00;07;45;13 - 00;07;45;28
Jasper Beard
That's correct.

00;07;45;28 - 00;07;47;23
Host
Yeah. And that's the majority of the over claims.

00;07;47;25 - 00;07;49;02
Jasper Beard
Majority of the overclaims.

00;07;49;04 - 00;08;04;01
Host
Now let's go to this one though, because here it comes. What happens when it's more than three hours over the limits. So say it's 12 hours in court or it's, 16 hours total in a day. Do you just want just a sworn statement for them?

00;08;04;02 - 00;08;11;01
Jasper Beard
No, sir. I need a little bit more than that. I need the time records as proof that you've worked these hours.

00;08;11;04 - 00;08;41;19
Host
Yeah. And you know that that goes back to, rule 13 under section six, talking about how attorneys are going to be held to a high level, of accountability to maintain the records, their contemporaneous time records. And we've done some previous podcasts on that and, that they have if they don't give, the supporting documents, if they don't give us the sufficient information to process the claim and the contemporaneous time records, that could be grounds for denial.

00;08;41;19 - 00;09;06;03
Host
And we never want to deny claim, but we have to have those, those contemporaneous time records when it exceeds, three hours over the, in court or out of court time. And we, we sort of put those thresholds in. It seems to me if the majority are small overages over that, over the thresholds of eight in court, 12 out of court, that, it's pretty simple thing to fix for attorneys.

00;09;06;03 - 00;09;14;28
Host
And they shouldn't just immediately panic. Right? Right. Or just just respond to your email. Because if they don't respond to the email, what eventually happens that.

00;09;15;00 - 00;09;18;24
Jasper Beard
The claim could be reduced, denied.

00;09;18;27 - 00;09;47;13
Host
Yeah. And sometimes we'll go through and you and I will talk. And when they haven't responded several times, I mean, we could always reactivate them if they if they start responding. But when they don't respond, you know, we just have no option. We're not going to move on that claim. Until until they, they respond. And it's it saddens me because sometimes all it takes is just fill out the form real quick, get it back to us, so that if we ever have a comptrollers audit, they can see that we've we've asked we've done some due diligence on it.

00;09;47;13 - 00;09;57;13
Host
So knowing that, you know, there's a lot of these claims are for so much smaller, are there some common reasons why these over claims get triggered like that.

00;09;57;19 - 00;10;04;03
Jasper Beard
Duplicate billing, wrong dates, key or entry errors.

00;10;04;04 - 00;10;08;20
Host
So like instead of me putting 0.6 hours down, I put 6.0 hours.

00;10;08;20 - 00;10;09;18
Jasper Beard
That's correct. Yes.

00;10;09;18 - 00;10;21;15
Host
Yeah. Okay. What about I suppose there could be times when, if they put a claim in that's denied and it those hours count against that day, can that happen and count against them too?

00;10;21;18 - 00;10;22;25
Jasper Beard
Yes. That can happen.

00;10;22;27 - 00;10;30;24
Host
Or maybe, if, maybe they removed a claim. That can also cause an over claim that we have to look at too. Right?

00;10;30;26 - 00;10;37;05
Jasper Beard
That can happen as well. I've seen that as well. More so just the dates and duplicate billing. Really? Yeah.

00;10;37;07 - 00;11;01;17
Host
So there's a process now when we get to these, the more in-depth claims where we're talking about needing the contemporaneous time records and the new amendment I mentioned of rule 13 kind of lays out this, process when an audit, over claim audit is flagged in the process. And if they go through and they'll, they'll respond to us and we, we say there's a reduction that needs to be made.

00;11;01;19 - 00;11;25;22
Host
It's not the end of it necessarily. Because there is a there is an option for them to ask the Chief Justice to review, any kind of, reduction, if it's substantial, that we think is important. But they do have to follow through, what the rules say, which is that attorneys are going to be held to a high degree of care and keeping those contemporaneous time records, and that will support those claims.

00;11;25;22 - 00;11;45;10
Host
And and also to keep all of those, documents and give us a sufficient description in order to be able to support what they're doing. And I know and my listeners have heard this before, I know it's a hassle. No one wants to keep a notebook and saying, you know, 15 minutes did this phone call for seven minutes and bill in tenths of an hour.

00;11;45;10 - 00;12;00;08
Host
It's it's very strange. It's not the normal thing. So I get their frustration. But over claims are not the end of the day. In fact, would you agree with me that if most attorneys would just respond over claims can be pretty well cleared pretty quickly? The vast majority.

00;12;00;08 - 00;12;14;02
Jasper Beard
Majority of them are cleared pretty quickly. You may have a handful that I never hear back from from months on in, and but more, more so I usually hear from attorneys within the day that I send the email.

00;12;14;10 - 00;12;18;17
Host
So, and do they send the, the sworn statement most of the time, and.

00;12;18;23 - 00;12;20;28
Jasper Beard
They send it right back that same day? Yeah.

00;12;21;00 - 00;12;21;29
Host
And then you close the audit.

00;12;21;29 - 00;12;22;11
Jasper Beard
Close it.

00;12;22;11 - 00;12;23;29
Host
Up, move on with life. Right?

00;12;24;03 - 00;12;24;15
Jasper Beard
Yes, sir.

00;12;24;15 - 00;12;40;23
Host
So and then the payment can get and then the payment gets reviewed. You know, through the normal process, you know, it doesn't get sent over to finance and administration after your your clearing that on it, it still has to go through the review process. Well, Jasper, I'm gonna just say, you know, I really appreciate the work you do here.

00;12;40;24 - 00;12;47;14
Host
I know that you're actually doing a little bit of training. I think, going to get your, certification, aren't you?

00;12;47;14 - 00;12;52;23
Jasper Beard
Yes, sir. This in the process to become a certified fraud examiner.

00;12;53;00 - 00;13;10;10
Host
Yeah. I think that's going to maybe serve us. Well, someone, you know, I think a lot of folks who work over in the comptroller's office have that certification, and and it, you you it will help you in your work here and it but we'll also, our hope is, is it's going to help you via communication.

00;13;10;10 - 00;13;24;18
Host
Whenever we need to talk to the comptroller's office work. You'll understand their lingo, a little better than the, the me as the attorney. What about it? Are there some suggestions that you would give to attorneys, just generally, when it comes to over claim audits.

00;13;24;18 - 00;13;39;10
Jasper Beard
The main point I would like to, convey would be just to respond to the email that I sent. I mean, help me help you. You know, that's all I want to. That's all I'm trying to do is just to help you get paid. I know, so.

00;13;39;12 - 00;13;40;11
Host
You're not against them getting.

00;13;40;11 - 00;14;03;08
Jasper Beard
Paid? I'm not against them. I'm. I'm trying to help you get paid. So just respond to the emails that I send with, documentation that I'm requesting, and then we can make this process as painless as possible. Another thing I would like to tell the attorneys is to keep their contemporaneous time records. That is very important when it comes time to audit some of these claims that I'm processing.

00;14;03;10 - 00;14;27;17
Host
Yeah. You know, it's a pain in the neck for attorneys. Right. And we understand that it's a frustration. But if they don't do it right I mean, they put us in a box, right? I think in terms of it. Well, Jasper, it's been great. We're demystifying what are, over claim audits and sort of making sure that everybody understands it's not the horrible, experienced, for the most part, for the vast majority of claims.

00;14;27;17 - 00;14;29;14
Host
And I appreciate you taking the time today.

00;14;29;17 - 00;14;30;11
Jasper Beard
Enjoyed it.

00;14;30;14 - 00;14;36;06
Host
For more information, check out the Indigent Representation web page at tncourts.gov.