The Duratus Mind - Mike Bates - Former Counter Terrorism Operations Leader

In this episode Gaz talks to Mike Bates who is a former Royal Marine, former counter terrorism covert operations leader, 2nd Dan BJJ Professor and is in training to row the Atlantic solo in Dec 2022.  Mike opens up regarding his formative years, the leadership opportunities he grabbed when they presented themselves to him, what principles he took away from the Royal Marines and how they helped him through his 16 years in his confidential MOD department career that followed.  

Mike now owns and runs Roundhay Leeds Gracie Barra BJJ gym which is the fastest growing in Europe.  A full contact sport and gym which he started in lockdown.  In his spare time he is training for the Talisker Atlantc ocean row event in Dec 2022 where he is hoping to raise over £100,000 for Leeds Children hospital.  

Gaz and Mike talk all things leadership, principles, goals, resilience...and life!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Mike Bates. Gas Bamford, how are you? Nice to meet you, mate. Can we reach? Yeah, that's it. T-Rex. Mate, um, the next episode of the Duratus Mind podcast. I was thinking on the way up here. I'm in Leeds today. This gym we'll talk a bit about in a few more moments, I'm sure. I was thinking I can introduce introduce this one because I always introduce in the same way. It's like I'm mega excited today. And I thought, you know what? I'm just going to stay with it because I am excited, interested by this conversation. Because um it's a pleasure having you on, firstly, because I know your background and your backstory and what you can offer to people listening. So welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Thanks for having me, mate. Thanks for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I love it, love it. And I and I'm genuinely interested where this goes. I don't know where it's going to go. And so there's no agenda either. A few months down the road, we don't know where it's going to go. But you know, we we've got this opportunity to talk. And um, what I'm fascinated by is people that have had their success in their chosen domains and how they've managed that, and how that other people can learn from that and then apply it to themselves. That's what I'm fascinated by. Firstly, because I'm fascinated by it, I just want to keep doing what I enjoy and have my own success in that space. And I heard you, and I thought, there's a bloke that I connect with. Felt like I knew you listening to you for the first time, and I'll come on to where that came from in a minute. But I uh it just feels like I know you already. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Me too, mate. It's bizarre, isn't it? I remember when you called. Yeah, same thing. I think that's probably because our values align, and without even saying it, we just know, right? You just can look someone in the eye and you go, This person is in it for the right reasons. And when you get that back, I think instant instantly there's the kind of connection, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, 100%. So I first heard of Mike for those listening. I was driving up the line and I was listening to the high performance podcast, one of my favorites, and um bit embarrassingly, it was bare grills, but it's a really good episode. I enjoyed it, didn't expect to enjoy it quite as much as I did. But at the back end of that, um, they often, Jake and Damien, get someone on to talk about their experiences with the podcast, etc. And it was it was Mike. And I listened, I was like, former bootnik, former confidential government department worker, we'll go into that in a little bit more detail. Um, and now owner of a really successful gym and grand plans for the future. And I thought that's a bloke I've got a lot in common with from our backgrounds, and let's have that conversation. Reached out, connected, and here we are a few months later. So, like, so grateful for your time.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Oh, thank you, mate. And if anyone's listened to that episode or does go back and listen, number 100. It's number 100, right? Um, I actually do say explicitly what I did on this podcast, and we've discussed this before. I'm actually in a legal negotiation at the minute with the Majesty's government about what I can and can't say. And out of respect to them, because I'm like you, I'm a patriot, you know, I don't I don't want to do anything that's gonna upset anybody or overstep the line. So the words we might use today, if that's all right with you, is confidential MOD department. We might talk about the roles I did and and uh my experiences in there, but yeah, it's gonna be weird for some people who have heard episode 100 because I explicitly talk about it there. Um, but today we're gonna use those words whilst that confidential MOD department decide which direction they want to take.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

It's all good, mate. I'm uh I'm all about, and again, I in my mind have never crossed that boundary with my old work, and I don't want to, you know, and I and I'm respectful of the organization, uh, and I super respect the blokes that still do it, and it's vital work in that domain. And I think the same about yours, we work closely with your old organisation. So hey, we had this conversation, so we're gonna it's a minefield because we're gonna have to wander around it a few times and we both know what that feels like, and that's dangerous. But um, we're gonna do our best, and if at any point we we you know just we'll we'll move around it, we'll do fine. Can I can I just say thank you to you actually?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Because when when you called that first time, um, I think I just that that podcast had just landed and a letter had landed on my doorstep, and I remember saying to you, I think you're on to on your way to Manchester to do some mentoring. And it was really helpful for me to hear your experiences because I'm mindful that in your old world there's quite a few guys who've branched out and and done great things. Um I'm the first, I think, from my organization to want to share his experiences in a in a positive way, in a non-sensationalist way. So it was nice to hear from you, so thank you. It was really reassuring to know that there is a path, it it's not gonna be easy, but stick on it and yeah, good things will happen.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

We've had this conversation just while we're on it. You're you're a pathfinder in many ways because there's not people from your old organization. Like we've said, we're and I know your values are trying to help other people, and when you're coming from a place of contribution, it will work itself out, and the powers that be and the government groups that we're talking about do need to be protected equally, don't they? So, hey, you know, you're doing it for the right reasons, it'll work itself out. And I'm sure in a few months' time this podcast can be labelled as wherever you've come from. Do you know what I mean? But when that's not where we're at now, and we'll we'll uncross that as we come to it, mate. So, Mike Bates, I'm I'm I'm keen to understand your journey. As could you give people like a two-minute canter through your life to this point, and then we'll we'll backtrack into into various different bits.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Sure. Um, so from Doncaster, so uh from Donny, so pretty kind of working class background, I suppose. Um normal upbringing. Although I will say, and we discussed this, but we'll probably come into it. Um something happened when I was about 10, my dad left and it changed me. And and from the age of 13, I were kind of doing drugs and I was playing drums in adult bands in town drinking at 14. So I was kind of heading down a bit of a dodgy path. A few things happened, I ended up joining the core at 20, which no one thought I was gonna do by the way. Um that's where things got really weird. Yeah, that's right, yeah. And uh so I did five and a half years in the core and then left there to go directly into this confidential MOD department and spent the next 15 years on the operational front line in lots of different intelligence gathering uh roles, but primarily in human uh running agents and working undercover and stuff. Um, and then I decided to resign in 2020. Um, one to row across an ocean solo to raise money for a hospital, uh, which we'll talk about again. Um two because I didn't want to have a predictable or comfortable life, guys. You know, like I I looked ahead and I thought I really want to take some risks uh before it's too late. So I did that and I started Gracie Barrow Ronde Leeds, uh, which uh in lockdown, so a contact sport in lockdown, mate, it's not gonna work, it will work, trust me. And then really worked hard to create something within our community which people could be proud of and safe to come and train here. And this place has exploded, as you've probably seen, over 400 students, and then now we're looking at I'd like to write a book about my principles for reaching goals, all sorts of exciting opportunities. So quite a lot packed into the 41 years.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

That's that's bang on, mate. And it's interesting to me that you say you wanted to leave your old organization because you wanted to take a few risks. We'll unpick that because there's a few people listening going, sounds like you've had a pretty risky career up to that point, but we'll unpick that. So I I like to understand people. I I'm fascinated by all of this, and we always end up talking a little bit about people's upbringing because it's so important. And again, you're a father, and you know, I am too, and I want to get things right, you know, and I look to my upbringing, and I was again connected to you in many ways, working class, um on the face of it, very normal. And I and I say that it was very normal, my normal, if there is such a thing as normal. Parents, you know, stay together and um brought me up as well as they could, and they've done a great job, in my opinion. Um, so I connect with you on the working class background and you know, opportunities. And there was a point in your life you said about your dad leaving, and you know, can you go into that a little bit? And you say it affected you. So, like are you at the time do you think it did? Do you you're conscious of it, or do you think now, reflective, you're you're more aware of it now?

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Um, I think at the time you're just in pain, aren't you? I think no no child wants the the parent to split up. It was the way my dad went about it, I think, and I was and the way it affected the whole family group. So I'm the eldest of three kids, um, and I saw my mum suffer. Um and yeah, it fundamentally changed me. I think if if I looked back at the time I didn't realise, but I looked back, I was kind of rudderless. You know, there's a great book called Raising Boys by Steve Biddle for everyone who wants to read it. I read it when I became a father of two boys, and it talks about the real importance of particularly young adolescent boys slash men having good, solid male role models. Um, I didn't have one. I had a couple of teachers, I suppose, who were in the sports arena which were you know good role models for me, but I didn't have that person that I could really look to, you know. And this sounds bizarre, and I'm I'm not upset about it now. I still don't have a relationship with dad, by the way. Um that's not well, it is by choice now, but it wasn't for many years. I did try. He's never once and he's proud of me, and I and I know that still hurts me inside because a young man needs to hear that, and I I didn't get told that, and so I kind of had a choice, and I think this is maybe just a bit of kind of nature in me. I thought, well, I can stick around Donnie like ever all my other mates and you know become a painter and decorator or a plumber or whatever, um, or I can strike out into the world myself and kind of make something of my life, and I I think that's one thing I am pleased for for that experience, is it pushed me into a whole new kind of realm? And I left I left home at 16 and kind of from then on offended for myself.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Talk a lot about leadership now. You're also the eldest of brothers brothers, did you say? Uh brothers and a sister, yeah. So um I asked you a question before we came on about some leader role model leaders, and you kind of struggled initially to think about it. And it's like because you probably took that role on, you know, and from a you from a young age, and so you moulded that by the sounds of it, you know. I'm not a flipping psychologist, I don't want to get into that, but that sounds like what you've done, isn't it? You you know, you've you've kind of created, well, I've got a you know, mum's upset, I need to help deal with it. Step up, didn't I? Yeah. 100% from an early age.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Very early age, so 10, 11 years old, you're the one liaising with parents who fundamentally hate each other, and you're the one in the middle protecting your brother and sister and making arrangements and then dealing with the aftermath when that person doesn't turn up when they said they were gonna turn up to collect you and and all that stuff. So yeah, I think I was thrust into that environment where I had to either lead or you don't, and whatever was in within me just said go do it. Um yeah, and I think perhaps that that was the first opportunity for me to kind of and I think I enjoyed it too, right? I kind of enjoyed looking after them too, and I enjoyed making decisions, and that's been a theme then throughout my life that I'd rather make decisions than have decisions thrust upon me, right? 100%. No, I hear that.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Um you said you left home at 16.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

You fan work or I was working in a bar actually, so I was a musician, I was a good drummer. So from the age of 14, like I said, I was playing an adult band in town, drinking, got arrested at 15 for climbing on a car, drunk, um, which uh my mum still talks about to this day. Um mortified. Um, yeah, so I was working in bars, and then I suppose that kind of leadership angle again, the age of 18, so only just legally old enough to drink, Carlsberg Tetley kind of plucked me out and said, You're someone we want to develop uh as a future leader. And so I became a relief manager for Carlsburg Tetley at the age of 18, and I was going around the country running pubs, like barely old enough to drink, and that's how I found myself in Leeds about a mile from here, actually, at a pub called the Chain Bull. It was the largest taking pub for Carlsburg Tetley in the region. We used to take like 30 grand a night sometimes. Um and that was again the first chance I had to kind of lead other people and manage. Um, and then that's where I met someone who'd been in the Navy and I was fascinated by the stories he used to tell, and I th and I felt a real drive within me to go and do something that not a lot of people could do. And I and like most of us, mate, I I saw an advert in FHM of a guy coming out of a swamp, 99.9% need not apply, and I thought, right, well, am I that 0.1% or not? Let's go and figure it out. Um, my uncle bet me 50 quid I wouldn't be able to do it, and none of my family thought I'd do it because at that point I'd been smoking weed for seven years, I was drinking, I was smoking. In fact, the first run I did from the chain ball around the block, it's a mile, and I know that now because I live here, um, and I didn't make it all the way around without stopping. But there was something in me again that I thought, you know what, I need to go and prove to either myself or others or both that I am capable of good things.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

The core's good for that. And uh and again, I've not I would say my upbringing, I don't remember anyone positively encouraging me to go and do it. Um, I don't remember anybody saying, Yeah, you'll crush it because I was this scrawny little kid that you know no one knows their potential, do they? And but you get thrust into an environment that challenges you every single day. So talk about your early experiences in the core, then. So your first experience of running a mile around the block didn't go so well. It's like a reality check, feedback. Right? We talk about feedback all the way through this. I know we will. And you're not someone who's afraid of feedback. Go and do it, take action, then then what? Um, so first experiences in the core. Like, talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

They were good, they were really good. I mean, I I was kind of looking at myself, you're smashing uh, you are smashing this. You're like the first two weeks in foundation block, got some orange tapes. You know, you're someone we're like we're thinking. I mean, uh the first day of the I turned up in a purple tie and a pink shirt, which wasn't a good move. Uh that I think that I think the train team kind of liked me for that, but in the wrong kind of way as well. Like this guy's got something about him, but um, so I was the first to get me I'd shaved. How old were you as well? 22. Yeah. Um so I'd had a bit of experience of life, which I'm I was grateful for. Um, but it was a massive, it's just an alien environment, isn't it? It's a weird environment. Um, and then got the Craig Medal at week 15, and then the real test was 22 bottom field. I could not climb the ropes, I just couldn't do it. In fact, I've only ever climbed that rope once, and that was the final attempt to get through training. Went into hunter and all that stuff. And again, that was a real it was one of those kind of moments, wasn't it? Like it could go either way. Have you got what it takes? Are you the point one percent or not? And I remember uh the PTI saying to me as a guy called I still remember his name, couple of toes, he was called, I don't know. He just said, Listen, just close your eyes and keep climbing till you're read it's a stanchion at the top. And I did, and I thought, man, I can do anything. Yeah, and then the rest was easy then. Do you know what I mean? Um I never was an amazing natural athlete, I was kind of middle bottom of the pack, but I was committed to my soldiering, and I really loved being part of I don't think I've ever felt the same feeling of walking around knowing that I had a group of guys behind me that would do anything for me, and I I love that.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, I knew I I almost knew you were gonna say that that being connected to something, this that that that group, that brotherhood, that you feel it, don't you? And I think it's something that we'll come on to this, but you found maybe in your last career, but certainly this career, this connection that we all need. Um, we're definitely gonna unpick that.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

I wonder, sorry guys, I wonder as well, just saying it there, and we you said this might be a cathartic conversation. I do wonder whether or not that is what I was looking for, given that I didn't have that at home.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I think we're all looking for it though. I think I think it's something that is fundamental in human beings that we need that group that we are with, we connect with. We we need to be a part of that, find our tribe. We need that. And sometimes, what does the core offer? The core offers a really mixed bag of people. You are invariably going to find people in that group that are like you, like good homes, broken homes, drugs, whatever. There's gonna be some people like you that have got that experience, and inevitably you gravitate towards them, don't you? Because oh, they these people are like me. First time I've ever met people like me that still want to try and achieve something and make something of their life. And it the the core is an avenue to do that because of their their culture of taking something which is formative, like which is a the bare bow. I was a spotty teenager, 18 years old, and their job is to turn me into something that I'm like a soldier that can go to war ultimately. I didn't view it like that, I just wanted to get the green berry, it seemed really important. But they they put you on this conveyable, don't they, to get you somewhere and that journey that you go on with other people, shared experiences of adversity a lot of the time as well. That is so fundamental to people coming together. And I I think about it every day with groups, execs, and teams that I work with of how you can get people to bond, because we need it, we need people like us to be working on things because nothing amazing gets done that isn't done by a team of people, like ever, ever. Like not the most like Egyptian history, the pyramids. I know one person did that. It was like an unbelievable feat by thousands of people, and getting people to work together is important, so the core's good for that, and so you were seeking it because we all are, you know what I mean. And I think people that are listening that go, I just feel lonely, or I just feel like you haven't got it. Well, find do different things, and you'll find different groups, but always try and find groups, and you'll ultimately eventually find people like you within that, and you won't like everyone. And I'm sure you've got experiences in the in the core and your last career that you didn't like everyone, even though they're high-performing teams. Um, so yeah, so you don't know any thoughts, comebacks on that?

SPEAKER_02 19:27

No, I think you're absolutely right, and I'm grateful for that experience. I think the I still remember, as you will probably do, in Foundation Block, they bring in one of the one of the lads who are in the commander commando phase, and you're looking at this person, you're thinking, and they're telling you about the commando test they've just completed, and you're thinking, there's no way I'm gonna be able to do that in 26 weeks. But you do, you do, and I'm grateful the experience, and I there's no way um I would be sitting here in this environment, nor would I've had my the 15 years that followed the core, would it were it not for that experience and for those people who believe in you and give you the opportunity and mould you and shape you and push you, and I'm grateful for that, I'm grateful for the thrashings, I'm grateful for the adversity. Um yeah, and I was lucky as well because I joined at a time when there was some real operations as well, right? 2000s, 9-11 happened when I was on fogging tour. So yeah, honking. Again, the leadership thing came in because I'd sorry but just to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

So just before we go into the ops talks, I know you've got a few under your belt before next chapter, so to speak, but what do you think are the fundamental things that you learn? Again, it's different for everybody, but what were the fundamental things at the core or your time in the military early days moulded you to kind of focus on a bit more? What'd you say?

SPEAKER_02 20:53

I think self-belief for me, but also the power of teams again. So um no one person was the same, but together that created the strongest teams. Um, and that that you know, the un the commando quality is right. I did a talk the other day, we'll talk about this, I'm sure. Um, with Lee Dry Nours, and I spoke about unselfishness and doing things not for you but for your mate. I love that. Um, and certainly that's what I'm all about now. I don't, I don't, I'm not doing this academy for me, I'm doing it for everyone else. Um, but the self-worth you get from that, the currency you get from that is it's priceless, man. And it's worth six figures straight away, just seeing that you know someone else developed because of what you've done.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

It's it's contribution, but also I think the core's got a great way of teaching you that. Like I always remember if you messed up, it wasn't you didn't get punished always, it was the group that got punished. And so if you were selfish, the group got punished, and you were like, man, that hurts. I care for these people now, and I feel a right throbber. And the core's great at teaching you that lesson, and I don't think a lot of society has that accountability. So I don't think there's a lot of people that for their actions, the consequences are this for other people, which there are consequences. You look at thieves, robbers, whatever, they'll rob something. They're not thinking about the consequences for other people, it's very selfish, isn't it? And so having that unselfish attitude or self self selflessness, what is it? Unselfishness. Yeah, it's like you that teaches you something, and you but you need to learn those lessons. You've got to that I think as a part of that, and then that contribution. To others, you go, this is actually a really good feeling. So many of my experiences are more about that. Um, so you you you had training, training went well, um, a bit of time in Hunter, um, but you then progressed out and you joined uh four or five, did you say, I think? Yeah, and and like you said, things were busy. You joined at a time when the military was busy. I joined '97 and before 9-11, there hadn't been anything since the Falklands, pretty much. And I remember looking at the organization going, What has happened? This is a really good organization. I've worked hard to get it, but nothing, not a lot's happened. I was like scratching my head going, is this the right place? But that wasn't the case for you. You joined, um, landed straight off. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Pretty much. I think there was a there's a period of mountain training, and then we went on ocean and we were straight out kind of spared. So yeah, very grateful for that again. Good timing. Some people say not, but I definitely think it was. Because again, it it it it shapes you, doesn't it? Those experiences. I'm grateful for them. Um learned a lot, particularly again about my own kind of who I was, and I just didn't I very quickly kind of became someone who the core was looking to as the future as a future leader. And I don't know why, but they saw something in me. Um, and that became my path then. And that's what they started to to do with me. They got me sitting with the officers, they got me developing, they got me um call it candidate training, don't they?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

So did you get put as a candidate, so a candidate for promotion, so you got some candidate training.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they did all that, and then then I got my lands track after like 11 months of coming out of training, which was good. Um, and and again, that was great because within my section then, um, as I actually I was a section commander then, um, when we went to Iraq the year later, there was a guy who'd done 15 years in the core, and people looking at me like, Well, you can't lead him because you've only done 11 months, so then it's about leading with actions, right? And then going out and proving to those people, the doubters, that you've you've got what it takes. So, again, I'm really grateful for for that. And um, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Just that just on that, because people would often there's a lot of people listening. Talk, I talk about leadership quite a lot with various different groups, and I haven't got the answers, far from it. I'm learning all the time, but lots of experiences of leading, and people assume because you've got the the age, the seniority, the experience that you're the person that should be leading. So a new person can't be the leader, but then what they're what they're not recognizing there, they're not baselining you. You from a young age, you've been leading, from 10 years old, you've had a leadership responsibility and or have become more comfortable in that position. And we never look at that, we never, we never scratch below the surface level position or title, and we go, Oh, you're the managing director, or you know how to lead, you should be leading this. And it's like, well, yeah, but this person that's come in that is like got unbelievable experiences and has to learn and navigate that from a young age. They let's measure that and let's understand it. Let's give them a chance if they're showing potential. And you know, you were clearly showing potential that was recognised, and you you ran with it, right? And what an opportunity, like Iraq. You know, there's no better testing ground. Oh, there probably are better testing grounds, but there's there's uh there's no greater challenges than conflict and war, right? Because there's big consequences. So talk a little bit about that, the kind of experiences you had in those roles, leading the guy that was 15 years your senior.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Yeah, yeah, and it was fantastic, wasn't it? Um, I think I'm just thinking about it there, actually. I think perhaps those really formative leadership experiences developed an empathy in me, and I think that's what got me through. I really cared about my men, and I really cared about the lads. Um, where not everyone did. Um, it was a bit gung ho and macho, but actually I really cared about and I think I showed him that love. Um, yeah, did that, and um Iraq was good. We were kind of working with your old mob actually, um, out in the western side of things. I think we went into Syria for a little bit of time. By accident, yeah, yeah, not for long. Quick about turning back out. But again, it was a great experience. We were lucky, mate, as well. I mean, let's face it. Did Afghan for six months, did did Iraq, we didn't lose anyone. And I know things changed after that. And I'm again, I count myself very lucky because I'm not scarred by those experiences. When I reflect on them, they are very, very positive. Um, but again, just doing that was great for me. And then again, I did Northern Ireland a year later. Again, I think I was acting troop striper then. I'd only been in two years, um, but they really wanted me to go and do my commission, and then I was kind of um and iron whether or not I was gonna do that or I was gonna go down and try and do the stuff that you did. And then I got poorly and I got pleurisy and pneumonia, and it gave me, and I'm thankful for that because it gave me a little bit of time out of the ham off the hamster wheel to think. And I was sat in hospital, I was like, I spent about two weeks in hospital. I was like, do I want to be in the military when I'm 35, 36, 37? And for me, I didn't, and I was 25 at the time, but I knew I wanted to serve my country, and I knew I loved operational work, and I loved experiencing developing myself at the sharp end when decisions you make aren't about pounds or pence, they're about lives, and I and I love that. Um so that's when I made the decision to try and join this confidential MOD department.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And how did you do that? Because I mean, a lot of again, it's hard when we can't talk about it, but a lot of people go, I'd love that job, but no one's got an idea. They've got a website. Do you just apply on a website? Do you do you do you send them an email? Do you wait for a job? Do you think do you need to know someone inside? So talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Well, I mean, back in the day, that most people were plucked out of Oxford and Cambridge, you know, that that Oxford and Cambridge to do that kind of work. When I applied, it was online. Uh, in fact, I was uh I was telling James earlier about this as we were setting up. So I didn't know anyone who'd done that work before. In fact, I didn't even know if it was a thing, but I saw it and I thought, I reckon I could do that. And what I really loved the idea about it, mate, was that I could continue to contribute to my country. Uh I was a massive patriot. I wanted to help keep people safe, but I also wanted to go home at night. And I knew, I think, thinking about my own childhood, I knew I wanted a family. And I thought it's a good opportunity for me to be a civvy, but still contribute. And I love the operational arena. Um what was interesting was uh everyone in 4.5 went to uh on a field fire exercise and I was on rear party, uh and the the troop striper, I think it was at the time, or certainly the person in charge. Um I said, I need Wednesday off, I've got this final interview for this job. And he said, Well, who's it with? I said, Oh, the MOD. And he went, Yeah, we're in the MOD, dickhead. Like, who's it actually with? I said, I can't tell you. He said, if you don't tell me you're not going. So I said, All right. So I told him, I said, but you can't tell anyone. I've been told I'm not allowed to tell anyone. He said, Yeah, yeah, don't worry. He got shit as that night in the mess and told everyone. And what was interesting was I was on a team in that role, um, working on some operations. I started to see these faces. I'm like, I recognise him. These are all the lads from 4-5. Like, word had got out again, that Pathfinder thing, word had got out that this guy had gone and done this second career, and then loads and loads of guys followed.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Talk about trust an awful lot in in in in in high performing teams, so that trust was lost, and booze is a good way to lose trust. But um, but no, so talk about the the kind of process to get in. So that yeah, you went off and uh clearly some of it is confidential, but the kind of work that I I buy into it completely, you know, like making the world a safer place ultimately for the greater good of people. That was the goal, right? That's what they're trying to achieve. I've done quite a lot of work with um CO19, CTSFO networks, and for the same reason, like I I can't imagine myself as a police officer, but being in that role, that would that was a part of my life, something that I would I would have loved to have done the CTSFO role because that's like you know, the book stocks stops with you. That's like that ultimate decision and that responsibility, and it's it's challenging, but and you're in a similar situation. I know the kind of work that we used to do, a lot of cross-contamination with your old organization, and and I know the work, and we used to do the similar work abroad, and you know, like the process to get in, like what because there's so much unknowns, there's so much uncertainty, and people struggle. That's for me, that's what I've learned that people really struggle with uncertainty. So the safe thing to do when there's uncertainty is I'll not try at all. But you're someone that has unpicked that and unraveled that and gone, no, I don't mind uncertainty because well, I don't want to answer that question for you. So talk to me about that. So how did you reason on that? Look, you didn't know, I I assume you didn't know anybody in that organization, and you went and did it. So, like, how come?

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Um, I mean, we'll come on to talk about the principles in the in in a little while, I think, and that because they're reverse engineered at the time. I don't think I know, I didn't think I knew. I just knew that I was the kind of person Damien talks about on the Hyper Forbes podcast about creating a wall of evidence.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

And I looked at my career in the corner, I thought, you must be good at leading, because bloody hell, you've been doing that, and everyone keeps telling you you are. You must be capable of doing that somewhere else. You know, if you can do it there, you can probably do it somewhere else. So why not give it a shot? Um the process takes a while. I mean, if if anyone googles it now or even goes on their website, you pretty much tell you exactly what you need to do. Um the vetting's significant, as you will well know. Um, to the point where they actually come out and interview your family members about you. I remember the financial bit was about an inch thick. Um, the financial kind of questionnaire or whatever it is, the application form. Um, yeah, and then I again I was lucky, was I lucky, I created the opportunity. You know, we talk about I talk about you know, movement creating opportunity. I I'd had the nerve to apply, and then they called me and said, Look, you've you've dropped on the end of a recruitment campaign. So what we're gonna do is pluck you out of your 12 month notice after six months. And I I walked out of the core on the Thursday and I walked through the front door of that organisation on the Monday, and then two weeks later, 7-7 happened again. Couldn't talk about good timing, so I was right in the thick of things in operations once I'd passed my training.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Amazing. Um, and that how would you compare the two organisations? So you've got the core, which on the face of it is high performant, it's got it's got a commando ethos, it's got a commando spirit, it's got this um values that it holds dearly, then you've got this other organization which again is absolutely pointed at what it's trying to achieve. How would you compare the two organizations from a place of being embedded in both, you know?

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yeah, um, culturally quite different. Most people, I imagine, when they leave something like the Royal Marines or the military, struggle to adapt. It's probably the greatest fear, I imagine, for most, particularly if they had a long career. How am I gonna cope on Civvy Street with all these civvies? It was a bit of a soft landing for me because I went straight into a surveillance team. That was what I joined to do. Within that team, there were people from the military, there were some ex-military people, but there were also I was gonna say normal people then. There was there was yeah, civilians as well. That was a great opportunity for me to realign myself into civilian life. So I was very fortunate again for that. Um, I think the key similarity for both is the mission. You know, you are there to keep our country safe. Um, and everyone bought into that mission. In fact, they did a great bit of work actually called working for that confidential MOD department, and it really helped to bolster that why, you know, because an organization like that on the military, they can't pay you six figures, they can't give you all the trappings of a great life that you could get in the city. So you really need to be there because you want to be there and you really want to be motivated to contribute. Um, even though you're a tiny little cog in that machine, you are contributing, and it could be, you know, you could gather the piece of intelligence that could unlock, and that actually happened. I can talk about that in a little while if you want. That happened on a big operation. Um, and so you the why has to be there, and I think in the military and in that organization, most people are there because they're motivated for the same ends.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Yeah, no team is perfect, there's always going to be people that are a bit more self-serving, but as a whole, the team is focused on the purpose, the why, start with the end in mind as Steve Kerry's.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

The thing is, if you're not if you're not motivated by that, you you will go and get a different job because you know you you're joining on not a lot of money, you're based in well, certainly then, based in London. So you're trying to live in London on 30 odd grand a year, like unless you really want to do it, you ain't gonna do it. Um so I think yes, there are the odd one who um I think the other thing as well, without an organization like that, you can you can't tell no one about it. No, so it has to be an intrinsic motivation too, you know. Up until me resigning in 2020, you know, my kids didn't even know what I did for a job. Um so and half the time my wife didn't know where I was, and it was all very, very um weird. But so again, it comes back to that motivation. It has to be for the right reasons, it has to be intrinsic, it has to be about you contributing to society and making the world a better place. If it isn't, you won't do it, man.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

I agree with you, and I'm just trying to I'm thinking of the people listening and going, how do they find that? So you've you've had a number of experiences where like you've had to take action against a circumstance that wasn't necessarily your choosing initially, but then you've taken action against things that you wanted to do and you've gone and found out that actually this is something I really want to be a part of. Um, you know, people that have got that that motivation, what what's your advice to them to kind of to do with that kind of thought of I'd love to be a part of an organization like that?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah, uh well, we're straight into my principles here, but the first one is motivation. Um, I always I think it was it's Sakichi Toyota talks about the five whys, and the Toyota organization used to ask that question five times. Um, I think you could simplify it down to three whys, but certainly you should be asking yourself that why question more than once. Um, and if your answer brings up anything that's extra extrinsic or for anyone else, you probably shouldn't do it. Um, I think, but if it comes back to something that's really deep inside and intrinsic, then it's worth persevering with. So I think if anyone's thinking, oh, I fancy that, I fancy that you've got to ask yourself those questions first. And for me, again, it's coming back to the why for me. I knew I wanted to continue to save my country, but just under slightly different terms, I didn't want to go away for six months again. And also I felt that given I'd done three operations in three years, I'd kind of done what I joined the court to do. Yep, get it. And so I'm either gonna go try and go down the special forces line because I admired what they did, and uh and again I felt that was you weren't just a 0.1%, you were 0.01% then, even less, mate, even less. Um and that appealed to me because again it was good enough stretched me and could I do that? And I I felt that I probably could, um, and I don't mean that in an arrogant way, but I felt I had it within me to get it to do that, um, or branch out and do something different.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Were you were you married when you went into or long-term partner when you went into um? Yeah, I had a long-term partner, yeah. Yeah, and did you have that when you were in the court towards your back end of the time in the core? Yeah, yeah, it was a same person, yeah. Yeah, so it's and how did you manage that? Because again, five years, three or four decent length deployments, that's a quite a busy tempo, right? Um, learnt a lot, but also tough on home life, right? And how did you manage that again with not very well? Yeah, I don't think anyone can, can they? I think it is a challenge, and I guess with your background and thinking of what's really important to you of creating a good family home, you know, is that something that was front and centre of your mind at the time?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Um, honestly, no. Yeah, uh, I was 25 when I left the core. So uh I met my wife uh when I was 27, 28. So, and I was on my own for about a year. I mean, ultimately me transitioning out of the core into this new job ended my relationship, my that longer term relationship because I loved it. I mean, we were right at the sharp end there. 7-7 had happened. I was on surveillance teams and then ultimately running surveillance teams all over the place, and you're following terrorists around every day. And then because a lot of the work was outside London, you're then staying over in hotels and then you're socializing, and then you're following terrorists again the next day. That's a pretty cool existence when you're 26-27. You know, and I just didn't prioritize my home life at that point. And when I look back, you know, I look back with a a little bit of regret there because that girl had moved away from her family home to be with me, and ultimately it was the end of the relationship because I was never at home. Um you can look at it two ways though. You know, I learned from that, didn't I? And then when I met the person that I knew I wanted to be with forever, which is my wife now, I didn't make those same mistakes again.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

I was I was about to say, you know, the there's a there's a balance, isn't there? Because like I I would put myself in the same bracket. I was I absolutely loved my job, and I could say, and you're like, well, you're always gonna you have to love that kind of job to do it. Yeah, but I also the person that I was with at the time, I wasn't it's not the same as what I've got now, if that makes sense. And so you you you you find yourself investing your life in the thing that you're passionate about, right? And to the point where I found someone that I was passionate about and had to make career changes because the the two don't work together, right? And so I can I can I can hear that completely. Um that balance with work and life, you know, you were fully invested when you were you know doing from 7-7, and again, um, I can relate it was incredibly busy times again. In my old organization, we were doing some shared work, but we were also abroad, incredibly busy. You know, the plan then for us was to try and do things upstream to prevent things coming back, but never really understood how much or if that was even being achieved. But we were working flipping hard trying. And I know yourselves were back in the UK working flipping hard trying to ensure British people are saying you feel really purposeful, right? And that that word, you've already said it a few times, I've said it a few times, that purpose, having something really that you're focused on, like like give me a scale of one to ten of your previous careers, like how important that's been for you and what like yeah, purpose it's everything.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

I I think it's everything in life, full stop. You know, my my favourite book to date is probably Man's Search for me. I know you've read it as well. Yeah, Franklin. Yeah, exactly. And when you when you found that calling, that that meaning, that purpose, that is that is the essence of life. I do honestly believe that. You know, he spoke, didn't he, about the people who survived out of it. There was luck involved, of course. Do you go left, do you go right? If you go left, you don't make it, if you go right, you make it. But he also spoke about the ones who survived, the ones who had that meaning, there's something to live for afterwards. Um in fact, one of the one of the most powerful things I think he spoke about in that book was when people would they keep a cigarette in their pocket at the last one, and when they smoked it, and he would witness these people smoking this last cigarette almost, it was that they'd given up on life. There was no more cigarette to to wait for. And then he could all he would all say like within three days they'd be dead. Um, I think that purpose, that drive, that that motivation again is absolutely key to anything you do. If you don't have that, you've got to go find it somewhere else. Because everyone's got one, but you and the people who are lost, that existential vacuum that Victor Frankel spoke about, people don't have that meaning, then we're in a space which self-doubt exists. Who am I? What am I here to do? Am I capable of anything? Maybe I'm not worth anything, and then you're down a bit of a rabbit hole. So I'm very, very lucky, I think, that I've always had that strong purpose and that strong drive, and I've never suffered to date because I've always had that.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

You've used the word luck about five times, and I don't think there's an awful lot of luck in as you've had a lucky life in many ways, but there's also you've made your own luck, haven't you? You've taken opportunities, you've you've seen that things something inside you have gone, I'm this I can do more than this, and you've gone, you've gone and done it. And I think that you've taken action, and I think that's one of the key things. Um, I was catching up last night on um, I've not seen Titch's S-Bomb motorcycle um programme yet. And I watched it last night with uh Karen, my wife, and um it was the first episode's got Toby in. I've interviewed both of them on this podcast, and it was fascinating for me that what you just said there about um that that hole that you can have in your life, like for Toby. Like Tit Titch is an absolutely lovable, likable guy. He's in his amazing bloke. Like Toby has has has come up against the challenge in his life where it would be so easy to give up on life because. And again, his story is incredible. I really look forward to, and I know his book sits with disclosure right now. And um, I've got zero power there, but just push it through, lads, because everyone needs to hear that story, and um you know that that opportunity to or not opportunity is the wrong word, but that that choice you get in your life where you look at your life and you go, it's either left or right. I can either give up now and actually I'm not going to be able to do that thing that I wanted to do, or I can. And last night watching Toby in a sidecar with Titch riding, and just Toby appreciating the wind on his face doing 50, 60 miles an hour at least, I'm sure, down the roads. And I'm like, that that is appreciation for gratitude for what you've got, and that's what you've just spoken about, there isn't it? That that why, you know, it's like you don't need much, but you as long as you're connected to it and you understand yourself, and so you've taken a number of choices where you've experimented and worked out if that's what you love being a part of post-7-7 trying to round up the terrorists and keep this country safe. Like now you're in a very different environment, right? I'm sat in what is in a really impressive gym, but it's very different. So, again, where is the crossover there? You know, with this purposeful organization of rounding up terrorists to you know what it is you do now. Do you want to cover that?

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah, I think at its heart is my motivation to help other people. I mean, that that's it. And I think we go right back to helping my brother and sister navigate the parents' divorce and protecting them from a lot of the pain that went on there right the way through to helping Marines survive and thrive in an operational environment, through to helping the country stay safe by following terrorists about or running agents or working undercover against uh you know the the worst terrorists in the UK and abroad, um, through to today, where I help over 400 students develop every single day, and I love it. And and one thing that I really love, not more, but I really love about this place, is I get to look into someone's eyes and see that change. For the previous 15 years, no one ever knew what I was doing, and I could never tell anyone. So you had to have a deep motivation within you because you couldn't shout about it, but now I can really look at someone and I can see that change in them. And we've got I've got students who suffer as much as anyone, but Gracie Bar around day leads gives them an environment. I mean, we talk about brotherhood, it's our number one value. Brotherhood, integrity, and development are the three pillars of Gracie Bar, which is why I'm part of the organization. And we give people a really safe place to come in here and suffer together and realize their true potential. Um we spoke about adversity kind of uncovering people's potential. Um, for a lot of people, they don't get the opportunity because they don't join the military or they don't push themselves out of their perceived limits. Jiu-jitsu gives you the chance to suffer. Most importantly, I think it gives you the chance to lose on a daily basis. And when you're faced with loss, then you really have to look in the mirror and find out who you really are.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

There's no adversity. Well, I I I work with this on a number of people, with a number of people. There's no stress. The quickest way to impart stress on this system of ours is to turn your gas off. There's no you that's the quickest way, and like that panic, right? And so adversity on a daily basis, you are being asked a question yourself, do I want to be here? And I remember when I was growing up, I was I wasn't too young, but I was I was a like I said, I was a skinny teenager. My dad took me to a local rugby club, Burton rugby club at the time. I got smashed and I was like, I was like, I don't want this, dad. And he was like, don't have to go again. Do you know what I mean? The motivation wasn't there. Uh I definitely didn't have it then to kind of just go and whatever the motivation was or wasn't there. Whereas football, basketball, swimming, I was like working hard at those things. Fast forward 15 years, maybe 10 years or so, like halfway through my career in the core and then into SF. Like, I I loved putting myself into circumstances where really challenge myself and the feedback you get from that and the the challenge of going again, picking yourself up. I've just been owned, and you know, I've done enough um jiu-jitsu or MMA to know that there's always going to be a bigger fish, and there's always going to be someone that you don't know by looking at someone how that's going to go, and that's that's a challenge, and you can choose to step into that arena or not. And that is, you know, you can take those little steps. I've got an email waiting for me today from a client that I work with, and he's like, How do I challenge myself more? How do I my things that I'm struggling with, how do I take steps towards it? Well, that's the key, isn't it? You break down those steps, and I'm sure you know one of your pillars is development, and there's pro there's steps there, isn't there? Right, and so talk to me about how you welcome people in, and like from your understanding of the core, you know, joining the Royal Marines is a dirty odd week process now, but it's gradual. Joining SF, exactly the same. Um, your old organization, you were trained what you needed to do. Now you bring people in, you welcome, and it can be daunting, right? Second Dan Professor of BJ, like, hey, come on, let's let's have a role. What you know what I mean? It's like that you could get owned, but you know, there's talk to me about that progress and how you develop that.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Um, well, I think being in the human world, just taking one step back to my previous job, then. So I worked in surveillance, but then for the majority of my career, I ran agents and then I worked undercover, and that that it fundamentally is understanding people. Yes. You know, you are a you've got to be a people person. Um, you know, you're asking someone when you're running agents to betray potentially the people that they care about right now to work for you, some guy that they hate. Um, you've really got to understand people there to be able to achieve that, and then working undercover, you're gonna try and convince people to be your friend. Um, so I take the same approach with all my students that I see them as individuals. We don't have a catch-all. Everyone's reason for being in jujitsu or on the mat is unique to them, and I try and understand that. And for some people, they need to be really challenged. And for some people, I'm quite tough on them, guys, you know, but they need that toughness. And for some people, I put my arm around them, and for some people, I do a bit of both. But it's trying to understand, and I always talk to my students, and I I try and convey my how much I care about them, and I genuinely do. Um, I think about them all the time. I'm invested in their development, and I'm invested in them as people, but primarily what they get here is and it says it above the door, right behind you there, nowhere he goes, it's a safe space. I've I've asked people to leave this environment and this this community, and I'll continue to do that because ultimately I don't care if you're and I've got ex-professional rugby players in this organisation, right down to three-year-old kids who are crying before they come on the mat. Everyone is safe and everyone has the opportunity to develop.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Have you got professional rugby players that are crying before they come on the mat?

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Uh funny you should say that. Everyone, regardless of their background, is trembling before they come on the mat for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Like 100%. I I've I've I get it, mate. I've been in probably, I don't know, 15 plus MMA gyms, whatever, round the round the globe, and like stepping in there is daunting, right? And I think what you learn quickly is in the good gyms, there's just this, because the word that you've not said out of all those relationships that you've built is trust. And you you you are you've got to give people trust. Your old job, you you people entrusted you with their life. You were you were handling them, but you were they were entrusting you with their life. And again, my old my old organization, people imagine a lot of what you did, and again, there's reasons why this primarily Hollywood, um, that groups of us, them went away and did what they need to do, caused commotion, arrested the bad guys, come back, high fives, beers. The reality is, more often than not, it was small groups of you, small teams, went into much larger, larger organizations and had to build trust in those teams to get them to come together with you to achieve this joint mission. So that might be making their country safer. And you think, well, they've got to trust someone who's external. That what's their what's your purpose here? Like, why are you here trying to help out? Uh you know, and it's like that people naturally put up barriers, but and again, for the confidence of someone to step into this gym and go, I want to come and learn. You've got to be you've got to have that ability to gain trust, haven't you? And that's like true of any team, whether it's the core, whether it's your old organization, that name shall not be said, uh, whether it's this this team you've got now, whether it's Apple, whether it's NASA, you know, you've got to have trust in that team, otherwise you haven't got a team.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Yeah, I think jujitsu is unique in that regard for a couple of reasons, and I'm obviously gonna be biased when I say this, but um one, it's a really honest martial art because anyone can look a million dollars on a bag, anyone can look a million dollars in kind of like light sparring, where no one's really trying to impose themselves on anyone because it's too violent, that you can't go toe-to-toe with strikes and and small gloves. But in jujitsu, because we can grapple to pretty much a hundred percent and it remains safe, that's a real honest account of you and your ability at that moment on the mat against that other person. On the trust angle, I think it's really important to do jujitsu because someone's gonna try and strangle you. If when you tap they don't let go, that could be fatal. And like, let's face it, that is for real. Like, it could be fatal. I talk about that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

That's what the submission is, isn't it? The submission is you've got me. If you keep doing that, you are going to kill me. Yeah, correct. And you're hoping they let go. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

But you've you've not met this person before tonight, and they're twice the size of you, and you you're hoping that they're as nice as you because if not, then this is gonna be a bad night. But they let go, and you're like, oh, it's a trust in humanity, then it's like this is a good person. This person allowed me to be in their personal space, which again we never do in society. We never walk up to someone, grab hold of them, and be like inches from the face, dripping sweat on them. This person's allowed me to come into their personal space, and then they've dominated me physically, and then when I've asked them to let go, they have. That tells you pretty much everything about what's great to be a human, right there. And I think people get to experience that all the time in jiu-jitsu, and that I think that builds really good people, and then those lessons they take them back out into the world, they take them into business, they take them into the family home, and they have more compassion and they have more understanding, they have more respect, they have more discipline, um, they have more confidence, more resilience. Man, if you've not done jujitsu, you've got to come and try it at least once, I think, in your life.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Especially if you're near Leeds and Round Hay Jiu Jitsu, yeah. You'll be welcome if you've got open arms, man. Yeah, there's a great community here for sure. And and actually it's an amazing facility. So like thank you. I was hearing earlier like how you've built this and the the risk you took. A bit like Tich in the sense of that I remember when Tich first wound back his doors on his S-Bomb workshop, it was a shelling factory, it stunk. It was a hole. Um, and it was like the vision to change it into something else. Like, I I've got so much respect for that, and clearly that's what you've done here as well. Like an oppressive facility. Um, what's the kind of goal with it? Where's it going? You know, what's what yeah?

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Um the goal is to continue to develop people and to maintain the culture uh which we've created, which we is the driving force behind this place. Um, it's not money, it's about doing the right thing. But ultimately, my goal, my drive is to give this to someone else and to create a pathway for someone else. And and that person's T Tanan, who's been with me from the beginning. So um those who know me and know this this uh business know that I gave him five percent of the business at Christmas as a in recognition for his hard work, but also because he's someone who tried to join the court, it didn't work out. Um I introduced him to Jiu Jitsu, he committed to what we're doing here, the project, the vision. And I want to give him a life that he can be proud of, and ultimately I want this to be his. So I didn't create this for me, I created it for the community, um, and I mean that. And ultimately I want someone else to benefit from my vision and the risks I took, and I'll go on and do some of the other stuff.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

What is that then, Mike? So what what is it that you've I mean this has been a journey. You you how many years have you been training BJJ?

SPEAKER_02 57:40

20.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

20 years. So it's a journey that will never cease, I assume. That'll never stop. But creating a club, there must have been a point where you've decided I'd like my own club, that'd be amazing. And then now you're kind of already, you've got one. A couple of years old, it's good to go in amazing, like like kudos to you, but you're already thinking next step, right? So, two questions. Why do you think that is to what is it?

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Yeah, my grandad, he was like my father, I suppose, but he always used to say you're like a manic depressant, you're never happy, you're always moving on. I think you know, I want to I want to experience life, you know. I I've never been one for it to want an easy life. I want to go see what what might happen. Now I'm never going to step away from GBRL because ultimately my students mean too much to me. And I'll always be that head professor here, I'll always be the guy who promotes my students and I've invested in them. But I have aspirations to share and help people through my mindset principles. The experiences that I've had, I do believe they're unique if you're looking at me as a collective, um, particularly in my former career, um, the last 15 years. I was the only guy within that organization. I'll be I won't be modest for a moment. I'll say I'm the only guy ever in that organization to have passed the surveillance course, the advanced stage and handling course, the advanced modern day undercover course. No one else has done that. And so that collection of experiences I've boiled down, I think, and and come up with almost like a blueprint for people to help them try and succeed. I want to share that. That's my passion. That that's why I'm kind of almost taking on the establishment and trying to write this stuff down in a book because I think it's powerful. And if it helps one person or if it inspires one kid to dream a little bit bigger and achieve some stuff, I want to be that person who helps them.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Yeah, I mean, you're already way ahead of that. I mean, you've got 400 members in this club, and they're all, I'm sure, inspired by that message. So talk to yeah, we'll we'll talk about the Atlantic row and then we'll come back to the the the values and the the mindset principles. So the row, like talk us a bit, but that there's people listening, and I've interviewed people that have done rows, have been a part of big rows. So it's not uncommon in certain circles, it seems to be an ex-bootnet thing. If you've been a bootneck, like to row across the Atlantic is a is a thing that people um strive for, and it's it's such a massive challenge. But talk to us a bit about that. Like, where's that come from?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

It goes back to motivation again. You know, like my my youngest boy, um Gabe, was born nine and a half weeks prem. He's 11 now, really healthy, but um nine and a half weeks pre, he weighed three pound gas. You could see through him. Um, and he was very poorly, really poorly. Um, and then he got meningitis, he was in intensive care for a long time, and it was that experience, and it was a traumatic experience. In fact, I don't think I've fully dealt with it because every time it's his birthday, I get really upset, and I think there's a box somewhere in my mind with it all locked up, it comes out. Um but I realised in that experience that and this was my naivety, but the NHS don't fund some of the specialist kit, charities do. And so I always knew that I wanted to pay back that debt of gratitude in in a significant way. And I'd raised a couple of grand for them, and you know, fair fair play. But I got to 40, we call it a midlife crisis, call it what you will. I was considering leaving my career and I thought I want to do something meaningful for them, for other people again, so they don't have to suffer like we did. Um also I want to do something that my kids can look at and see me through a process so they the wheels are off for them, you know, the shackles are off. It's like yeah, your old dad can go do this, you can do anything, right? So I decided I was gonna roll across the Atlantic. And at that point, in 2019, when I'd kind of conceptualised it in my mind that I was gonna do it, it wasn't that popular. It's actually in the last few years exploded again, and a lot of people are doing it. Um I'm gonna do it solo because I think that's the purest, most challenging way to do it. And it was actually something that was gonna take me years to fulfill, was what I was interested in. And some of that was gonna push me way outside of my comfort zone. So physically, yeah, but more so mentally. And also the the campaign. I mean, that is the hardest bit, it's the cliche, like getting to start points that hard bit. It's like running a business, trying to fundraise over a hundred thousand quid, the logistics, the technical aspect of it. Um, that's the thing that I'm really kind of excited to complete. I'm kind of looking forward to being over as well, because it's been a long journey uh and it's less than eight months away.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Yeah, so it's the uh is it December or January? December the 12th, we go, yeah. Yeah, so talk a bit about the challenge then. So, like how long's how long's a length of string, but how long is it going to take? Um, the some of the kind of logistics involved and what the route is, etc.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

From the Canaries to Antigua, it's 3,000 miles. Uh, I think Dinger came the other way, right? Um, which I was arguably a harder route. I mean, a friend of mine will give him a shout out, Jack Jarvis.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Pill or downhill, it's the same way, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

Yeah, uh slightly wet away. But Jack Jarvis has just been the first guy to row from mainland Europe to mainland America, 111 days. It's not an expedition like that. This is the Taliskowiski Atlantic Challenge, it's a race. Um, you won't be surprised to hear that I'd like to be competitive. Um, but ultimately I want to be safe and I want to perform optimally. If I'm in a position to win the solo class, then I will try and win it. Um just for me. But if I'm not, then just completing the row will be a success. And it has to be. And I've I've actually had to reconcile that in my mind already. Um, I didn't want to come second in the solo class and see it as a failure, so I won't, I won't. It's been a success no matter what. Um and I what I've loved about the campaign is how the vortex of it has pulled people in. People have seen what I've done, particularly in lockdown, because I suffered every day in the gym, every single day, and I posted on Instagram, and people from all over the world were saying, Man, you're killing it, man, you're going for it. And it's pulled people into this positive thing, and they're starting to benefit from it as well. And I love that. Like I did a chat to some school kids in Salford the other week about it. You know, and the head teacher got in touch, he'd hurt me on the iPormance podcast. He said, Look, my students leave and none of them get a job. It's like really deprived area. So will you just talk to them about this thing you do? Because they'll be really inspired. You know, the local school there designing the wrap of the boat. I'm just trying to bring as many people on board as possible. Make it as positive as it can be. And even though it's a solo row, going back to what you said before, mate, it's a team effort, isn't it? You know, sponsors, people in schools, family being sat here today. You know, this is all part of the process to realize that dream.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

The family at home as well, right? I mean, it's uh it's one of the conversations I had with Dinga. And again, I've I've lived a career where if you focus on all the things that could go wrong, there is an unlimited amount, right? And so I don't want to dwell on all the problems that you could face and the the ultimate risks you're taking. But there is risk, right? There's inherent risk in what you're trying to do. Yeah, you're part of a race that is being um managed somewhat, but still massive risk because you're in the middle of the ocean on a little tiny boat and the variables there are just massive. My brain goes, Yeah, don't want that. Do you know what I mean? And so, how have you reconciled that with wife, kids, etc.?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

Uh it took a while. So I first spoke to Sarah and my wife about it in the summer of 2019, and she said, Absolutely no way. You're having a laugh, mate, no chance. Um, too risky, all that kind of stuff. And then we talked about it. Initially, then I was like, Well, I'll do it as a pair then, because then if I bang me at least, someone can help me out. Um, and that kind of moved us a bit closer to doing it, and then ultimately I won't get back to a solo. I said, I have got to do it on my own. I'm very, very lucky to have, as you will be, guys, someone at home who is selfless in many ways and supports me in all the crazy ideas and dreams I have. I came home on Saturday and said, I'm what guess what? I'm gonna open a bar. She's like, What? No, you're not like a nail bar. I probably will. Um, and so that I mean that's something for the future. But um yeah, I'm very lucky. I think we all anyone who pushes outside of the norm requires a real stable support network at home. And I'm very, very uh lucky to have. That um, but also I think I want I want them to benefit from what I'm doing too, right? I want them to be proud, I want my wife and my kids to be able to say, That's my husband, that's my dad. He goes and does things that other husbands and dads might not do, um, and ultimately, again, as a family, we not me, we want to give back to that intensive care unit at least general infirmary, and we're gonna do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

I get that, and I also know again, certainly how I have played it in the past, that when you take on a particularly invested endeavour, so you're away for a period of time, it's gonna take from you, you're gonna extract yourself from the family in some ways and not be there, are you? And your your wife can let your wife, excuse the pun, manage the ship, so to speak, on her own, and that's tough. But when you come back, then you then that's a time that you really like again for people that haven't experienced it, the appreciation you've got for what you've got, um, the extra kind of bond that that can bring, because it's like almost like mag um bungees, isn't it? That pull apart and then they come back together so much harder and faster because they they they kind of have missed each other, and that if you never experience that, it's hard to understand. But I think there's a lot to be said for that. And I say that from a quite a selfish space of being away a lot of the time and and and having that, but no, like people listening, how can they help? How can again you've got a cause that you're trying to raise money for? That's the obvious one. But is there any other way that people listening could go, hey, oh mine, even a follow, a like, or a help spread the news, spread the message?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

That's what I always say, mate. It's not just about the finances, really. I mean, I'm lucky to have some great sponsors on board. There's still space for more, of course. I want to raise over 100,000 quid. I actually moved the goalposts there in the new year. I did have an aspiration to raise over 50. I've just doubled it because I think we can. And again, that's me just pushing the boundaries again and again and again. I think if people just if they can, if they like what I'm doing, if they want to share it, if they want to tell people about it, do that. Because it's the sharing of it, it's the broadening in, broadening out the the impact. You never know it's gonna really touch in a positive way. That's what I found. Um, and it might be through sharing this, and someone follows me on Instagram, let's say at the Atlantic Grappler, and they go, actually, that's inspired me to start the gym again, or that's inspired me to do something for charity, and I'm gonna go and do leads 10k or couch to 5k or whatever it is, then that's been a positive thing. And someone can always play. I would talk about jujitsu again, just real quick. I always talk to my students about there's almost if you don't share what jujitsu's given to you, you're all you're being selfish in a way. If it's been a really positive thing for you, so if someone follows what I'm doing and they like it, you've kind of gotta share it. Because if you don't, you're keeping to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

Yeah, yeah, I know. I get that completely. And I think what I'm hearing is so the Atlantic Grabpleme, remind me what the charity is. So it's for Leeds Hospital's charity, yeah. Yeah, okay. Again, similar experience as myself. Until you've had family issues, my mum tragically died very quickly of cancer, and um oh, the charity is gonna escape my mind now, it'll come back to me. Um, but until you've been involved in that personally, all of a sudden you've got that immediate connection with him, you know, and it's like you need to get involved. So, for those listening, Atlantic Grappler, follow Mike and look at what he's doing and see what you think. And again, if you think there's other people that could um benefit from hearing about it, then then get involved. Um, what what I'm also hearing is a lot of um values that carry over here. So you've got this mindset. What would you describe it as? The principles, I think. Yeah, so talk to us about that then. So where's this born from? You've clearly given it a fair bit of thought and then um share them. Let's let's get it out of there.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:25

Yeah, so I again that these are reverse engineered. I don't think anyone starts, you know, age 16, 20, whatever, with uh a blueprint for how to succeed in life. If we did, then great, we'd be able to move it. But I think actually people like you and I, Gaz, and other people as well, who have forged their values in a real challenging environment, ultimately we should be sharing that stuff again, right? So I've developed what I call my mindset principles, M-I-N-D, and they're motivation, inspiration, nerve, and discipline. And I think they're the four things that underpin any successful goal. You know, you've got to have a strong why, we've already spoken about that. You've then got to be able to create something inspiring for you and for others. Um you then gotta you've gotta start, man. And that's where most people fail. Like they don't even start, they haven't got the nerve to resign from a career of 20 years and give up a pension and everything else to go and strike out or do something else. You've you've sometimes got to quit to win. And then, of course, you're gonna hit some bumps on the road, and you're gonna have to have a discipline, um, a personal discipline, a daily discipline to push through the times which really challenge you. And I think if you do those four things, if you've got a good why, it's intrinsic, you've been inspiring to yourself and to others, and you you've got a great thing you're doing, you start it and you tell people about it, and you back yourself a little bit, and you actually get on that journey, and then you prepare to dig in when it really matters, you can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

There's a lot of motivation theory there. How how do um how do you help people with the discipline bit? I think a lot of people could recognise that they've got something inspiring that they'd love to do. There's a lot of um you've got to start, you've got you've clearly got to go, but and it's the continuing on that path. What's your thoughts on that determination, that kind of doggedness to just keep going towards? I think that's where a lot of people stumble and then don't continue. So, what what's your thoughts on that? And how have I guess you proving it to yourself, but then how do you help others with that, especially with the gym, even you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:39

Yeah, I think again, I'll I'll come on to that, but I think whenever you're faced with all those obstacles, if you don't have a really deep sense of why, you ain't gonna do it. You can have the best discipline in the world, but you're gonna have to reflect back on the why, uh, you know, often. So get that bit right first. I think from a discipline point of view, I think it's doing the basics right. We talk about this, and lots of people do, it's the little basics that count. There's no magic formula here. It's like right-there's no secret source, there's no secret source, guys. Um, it's doing the basics, it's doing the little things right. So if you've said to yourself you want to row across an ocean uh solo, you know, we all know that the hardest thing's gonna be the mental aspect to it. So I said to myself that I would not miss one rep in the gym. How was I gonna do that? Well, I need some accountability. So all great coaches have coaches. So I sought out a great SNC coach who programs for me. So I know that the work I've done has been overseen by a professional who knows more than me. Um, and I said to him when he said that he said he'd do it, I said, mate, well, just so you know, whatever you prescribe, I will do, and I won't miss one rep. Because I know if I miss one rep in the middle of the ocean, that's gonna haunt me, man. When something's gone wrong, that one rep will haunt me. So it's doing that every day, it's getting up early, it's getting ahead, it's getting it done. Oftentimes people would succeed, but they jump off too soon. They hear that story all the time about businesses who who fail but could have been huge or whatever. Um, so I think it's just keeping going, even when you think it's sounds like you've made it a habit.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

You know, this is what we're talking about, isn't it? Like you you will see something, you will keep going at it because that is who you are. You've you've you've set a target, you wanted to get into that organization, earn the green beret, you wanted to row the Atlantic, you will keep going unless something catastrophic happens. Like that's a habit you've developed, right? And and I guess there was a again. I I'm I'm thinking now, and like your your early childhood, like the the responsibility and accountability that you took on, the ownership of that problem. I've got to look after my brothers and sisters, right? It's like that is I've just got to do it. That's a really important thing. And you learn that you can manage that. And again, all these examples that you've got, you've continued to learn like that that attitude of I'm not gonna miss a rep, that's a learned behavior that that's got to be because you know when you're you've got a problem in the Atlantic and your hamstrings like giving you so much gip, or your your hoop is so sore. Because I've imagined you're gonna get come across some difficult situations like that, and you're gonna be like, Man, if I'd if I'd not have put the time in, there would be other things that are just falling apart now. And it's like I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna have to give up. And then, but that's just not an attitude that you've got. Like that, don't give up. In fact, it's not lost on me when now we're talking about never give up, which was Bear Grills's kind of mantra, is very much his mantra. It's like, so where do you think that how have how do you continue to foster that?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

Um, I think you I think one should always be looking ahead and then turning back round in life. I think yeah, future authoring thing. Reflection, reflection, yeah, yeah. But that future authoring thing that Jordan Peterson talks about. So I did a talk the other day um with Sadulo group, but it was brilliant. And that's a group of very, very, very successful businessmen. I think that the the poorest person in the bandwomen, the poorest person in the room was worth 10 million, right? Um so they built these amazing businesses, and I did a little thing with them where I just said, Look, I want you to imagine yourself in five years. It's basic stuff we we you know, but we don't always do this. I actually think you should imagine yourself on your deathbed and then look backward and say, What kind of life do I want to be proud of? What are the things that I want to achieve personally, professionally, physically, spiritually in my life? That when I'm taking my last breath, I've got the peace that I know I've lived a life that's fulfilled and has helped others. I think that's key. I think if you've got a discipline there and a motivation, it can it can impact positively on others. That's always going to get you out of bed in the morning because it ain't about you anymore, it's about someone else. It goes back to the commando, spirit and selfishness. So I think looking ahead, and I would challenge anyone to do this no matter what they're doing, whether they feel they're successful or not, um look five years ahead, look ten, look twenty, look end a life, and then turn yourself back round and look back at your life. Say, right, did I take enough risk? Did I spend enough time with my family? Did I get that balance right? And if somewhere you're off at the moment, you've got a chance to fix it. One of the businesses I want to go forward with in the future, it's already registered, it's there, it's called the next 45 Limited. The next 45 being the next 45 years when you're our age, it's probably all we've got if we're lucky, next 45, second half of life and all that. I believe your second half of your life can be the best, best half. You've got to view it in that way. And most people, our age, guys, get to get to this point and they're always looking backwards. Oh, the best years have gone. What next? No, no, no, no. Best years are yet to come, but you've got to go into the future and look back.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:13

I'm gonna live to 100, mate. That's my goal. That's my goal. Easy. I'm only 24, mate. That's a high definition camera, right, James? Um, yeah, I'm only 24, but no, I um I I buy into every single thing you say. Um, I was only listening to something recently. We're talking about nature nurture, and people will ease very easily switch it to ah, he's just gifted, he was gifted, look at the talents he's got. And it's like, and then we talk about nurture, and I think we often look at nurture as happens during school, and it's like then you decide what you can be, and it's like, when does that stop? At what point do you draw a line under nurture and go, yep, that's it, I am who I'm gonna be, and now this is all I've got to deal with now. And it's like, nah, I don't buy that at all. Like, I could literally pick up a violin tomorrow and go, I'm gonna learn this for the next two years and be an amazing violinist. I'm not gonna, it's not motivated to do it, but you know, you can literally turn your hand at any point in your life to anything and go, I'm gonna continue to do that. And I think one that is good for the soul to have something purposeful that you're still learning. Again, again, um a great mentor of mine, Preston Klein, um, met him a few years ago, and he he talked about every single year he wants to learn something new, so he chooses something at the start of the year to learn something new, and it just keeps him young and it keeps him just evolving, and you know, then there's neuroplasticity involved there, there's a lot of neuroscience there, and it's there's a lot of fact and truth. And so, but I think I'm I'm hearing what you're saying. It's like ensuring that you've got that that kind of thing that's pulling you forward, and we shouldn't stop at a certain point. Um, the last 45, is that what you said it was called? The next 45. Yeah, that's probably better, better title than mine. So, yeah, the next 45. And it's like, well, what does that look like for for yourself? You know, tell us a little about a bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:59

Well, I'm still developing it in my mind. I think um I do this often as well. You know, I'll have this idea. I just go out and do it, mate. So I've got a number of businesses registered, just kind of sit in there. One's a jiu-jitsu health business called First Stripe, the next 45 Limited, might open a bar, might write a book, might do a public speaking thing. They're all kind of lined up, waiting to happen. Um, and part of the nerve is telling someone about it's already this has to happen now. I see it as uh probably a little bit similar to yours, insofar as there'll be an online offering, but ultimately this is gonna be uh something that can impact probably a man at midlife because I do feel that once the kids start to leave the nest and you're facing the next 45 with that woman that you got married 15-20 years ago, and perhaps you're in a job that you're not certain you want to be in, but you've got 10 years to your pension, so you better stay in. Um I would challenge that actually, but and perhaps you put a bit of weight on and it hurts to walk upstairs now when you used to be fit and used to play five a side, you that existential vacuum that we talked about before becomes a real thing. And I want to use my mindset principles and use my experiences to create opportunity for people for them to realise that exactly what you were saying, they can be whatever they want to be, but you've got to start and you've got to be willing to go forward. The other thing I would say, and I've realised this um having left um public service, um, and it's cliched in a way, but it's true. There's a student of mine called Johnny Gracian who runs UK, ex-professional rugby elite player, got an online kind of weight cut um platform, but a phenomenal guy to be around, um really imposing guy, six foot six seven, big, big dude. And he talks about your network being your net worth. Um and then I spent a bit of time with Kev Simfield uh last week, um he's obviously mates with Jamie Jones McCann, who I work with a little bit. Um I'm grateful to know because Jonesy, Jamie Jones McCann, is one of the most well put together, thoughtful individuals I've ever met. And if you looked at him, you'd never think that. Um but he is, he's an amazing guy. And Kev uh Kev says, you know, you're the average of the five people you spend the most amount of time with. Um so that's important. Getting the right people around you. You ain't gonna be successful if you surround yourself with dickheads. So you've got to find that five or six associates that you can look at and think, I kind of want to be a bit like you. Um, I think if you do that, you can build a really powerful environment.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:41

Yeah, completely, and that's what you've learned, isn't it? Right? So we said probably about an hour ago that nothing great was built by someone and by themselves, right? That's just a fact that we fundamental truth, and what you've spoken about all the way through this is fundamental truths. Look, without starting, you're never gonna achieve anything, without working out what you're doing it for, the why. Start with the end in mind and working that out. It's like these are fundamental truths that we need to keep aligned to and and keep um reflecting on, going back to like look back and I completely buy into exactly what you're saying. How do you deal with the doubt? How do you so when the doubt cre creeps in, we call it the inner critic or the uh the inner commentator, how do you reason with that? Do you are you is it something you're conscious of? Do you do you suffer's the wrong word, but yeah, I think I doubt myself a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:33

Um, I think it's healthy. I think if you're not, you're not really self-aware. Um, particularly if you're taking on challenges which do have inherent risk of failure. Um, starting a business is pretty risky business.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:45

Run across the Atlantic.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:46

Run across the Atlantic, yeah. I mean, I'll be honest about the Atlantic stuff. Like, I'm really nervous about it. I get nervous, super nervous, more than people would think. Uh, I did a talk for the Rhinos team before the last game, mega nervous. I got I did a talk, my first paid professional speaking gig last week in front of all these amazing business people, warmed up for Eddie Hearn, the boxing promoter. Man, I was cacking it. Uh, I think I hide it quite well. Um, because the doubt is, you know, will I be able to live up to my own hype? Will I be able to live up to my own expectations and mind the expectations of others, and I place a lot of expectation expectation on myself to perform really well.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

How do you how do you hide it then? So again, you're a former surveillance operator, so you're amongst other things, and so you you you you're good at blending in. That's the to be a good one, you you're good at blending in somewhat. Uh not like the guy sat outside here earlier today, by the way. But uh, we we're watching you. Um, but yeah, talk to us about that. Talk to how do you how do you manage the how do you deal with it? How do you deal with the the the fear of well actually this could come and stop?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:51

You prepare, yeah, and you prepare uh more than you have to, hence the no no missing a rep. You know, so for those talks, I I mean I I'll show you my phone. I've got reams and reams of notes and ideas that I just put into my phone in the notes about my book, but also those speaking gigs, I must have written five or six iterations of an outline of what I wanted to talk about. Um you've got to smile as well, man. You've got to enjoy it. So that feeling of wondering whether or not this will go well is how you feel alive. And if you're getting out of bed every day and doing the obvious and the predictable and the stuff, and that came back to again why one of the reasons why I resigned from my previous career, because I could look at myself in 20 years' time, as a 40-year-old man, I was 60, I turned back around and I said, if you stay in this career, you've taken the easy option, son. You know, this is you you could guarantee a job here, you guaranteed a great pension, you can do the same 20 years again. Man, that's not living. That's not living. So I wanted to take risks, but accepting that as well and harnessing that fear and and knowing that that feeling is ultimately what living is all about.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:04

I don't care, I don't care who you are, what you do. I even listened to Nims the other day on Joe Rogan talk about he doesn't have a fear over this particular thing. And I thought, I think he's just-I mean, I've known Nims a long time, and I feel like I can say this, but I think he's just so used to doing one thing now, he's forgotten what that fear felt like. Um, but he does have fear, he does deal with that just like the rest of us, because it's such a human, it's another fundamental truth. It's a fundamental human truth. If you're listening and you're thinking, the thought of standing in front of a group of people, that just is my worst nightmare. And it's everybody's worst nightmare if you're not prepared to do it, if you're not trained, if you've not had practice. And the more you train, prepare, practice, and do, you then can look back and go, actually, this is doable, and I'm actually all right. And you know, and people are saying good things. You've got the the feedback that you got, and you you you are prepared for feedback. There's all these common things that we're talking about, and it is it is what we have to try and do. We it is what we need to seek. We can't, in my mind, just sit in that place of doubt and regret is just the worst, isn't it, right? Of not trying in the first place. And again, we all feel it. I again I've had a chat with Adam Petey when he steps out into the uh into his arena, into Olympic final. He's got nerves. It's like he's the best there ever has been world record holder, world champion, Olympic champion, best there's ever been in his field, still got nerves. And it's like, well, that tells you something, you know. And I think we need to remember that, and we need to recognise that feel it, go with it, learn from it. I think that is the simple process that you just keep reiterating, keep doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:43

There's one other thing as well, and um I I'm not good at this. I'm I'm getting better at it, and that is recognizing success. And I think the the one thing if we're really going to develop is that every now and again you've got to pause and you've got to look at yourself and you've got to be able to tell yourself, do you know what you did a good job there, mate? You've built a good thing here. You took some risks and you've succeeded. Well done. I remember meeting a friend of mine who runs a very successful business, he built it from scratch. Um their 15-year anniversary recently. You might listen to this, Steve, if you are listening. Very proud of you, mate, and what you've achieved. And he used to meet me for lunch when I was in my old job. And I had to rush back because I was obviously working for someone, even though it was uh you know, one of those outfits that was a bit different. You're still bound by their time. And he I remember him saying to me once, I'm suffering. From success guilt, Mike, because I don't need to go back to the office. The office is going to run itself. I drove past here, I took my friend of mine to the Leeds Rhino's game the other day. The team offered me some tickets for saying thank you for helping them out. And I took my mate there for his 50th birthday. We drove past here on the way and the lights were on and people were training jujitsu, but I wasn't in. I used to feel guilty about that. I don't now, I think. Yeah. I took the risks and I built that and I'm proud of it. So I think it's really important that we reflect back when we have done those scary things and we have pushed ourselves and been successful, that we're able to just look at ourselves in the mirror and tell each other we've done well because not everyone does that.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:11

And I think that's the beauty of thinking about what you're trying to achieve, your why, because if you've got a clear why, you're aiming towards that, and you can better recognize when you're there. Now that goal will shift. And it once you're there, you quickly look around and you go, actually, I want more. This isn't as challenging as I thought. I can do more. And that's that's normal as well. But I think recognizing that you've achieved what you did, you've got to have that moment, you've got to stop and tick that literally tick that box, celebrate that win, and go, look at what we've got. I mean, like again, uh you showed us around earlier, it's impressive. Do you know what I mean? It's an impressive place. And if the if you were to quickly just I want to make it bigger, I want I want to branch it out, I want to have one in wherever, you know. And it's like then you start to, well, actually, are you really appreciating this? And and is that still aligned to this why that you had? And maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you've got to you've got to reflect.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:06

It's that old stoic kind of uh and I think about this word a lot, enough, because that there has to be enough at some point, otherwise you're never gonna be happy. I I won't create another jujitsu academy. Most people do, most people do one, they do another, do another, do another. Uh you can just replicate it. But I don't think we can replicate what we've done here in GBRL. I don't think I want to. I think this place is special. Um, it looks impressive, it was done on a shoestring budget. Um but yeah, I think enough is something that I wrestle with a lot. You might do as well, because you could continuously set goals and continue to push yourself, but at some point you're gonna have to say, actually, I'm I'm quite happy with where I am and that particular part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:52

I had that conversation on Friday. So Friday just gone. Uh former colleague of mine. Um, well, he's a coach, he's a great guy, a guy called Andy McCann. Um for well, he's a uh performance psychologist, he used to work with our old organisation, and um in my mind, he took me under his wing a little bit when I left because I was looking at what he did. I thought, I'd love to do that. I mean, he's a he's a professor of psychology, um, but he's working with teams, helping them, and individuals doing that. And I was like, I'd love to do that. And he's like, Well, Gaz, why do you think you can't do it now? And I was like, Because I've not got the the qualifications. He's like, Look at your experience, you've done that. And I was like, Okay, yeah, okay, maybe I can. And he goes, one day, he goes, You'll you'll we'll have this conversation, Gaz. You know, you go, What was I ever worried about? That happened after about six months, six months down the road, maybe a year after leaving. I was like, Andy, we're having that conversation because I'm you know, this is going awesome, I'm loving it, and it's exactly what I want it to be. And we were chatting last Friday, and uh he said, How's things going? I said, Oh mate, it's going fantastically. I said, What I because what I'm hearing there is enough, but also comparison. And so it's so easy to compare yourself with others that you hear, don't necessarily see with your own eyes, but you hear what they're doing, you you you hear what they're probably earning, and you go, Oh man, I'm I'm underselling myself. And you're like, no, are you happy? Are you is this what you've got enough? Like I my personal story. I left the military. I was looking for a number of things in my life, but one of the things I'd look for was balance. Like time with my family was the thing and control over my time. I think that was probably the thing better control over my time. I've got, I would say, almost, I mean, I'm still in service to others, so I still work with people, so I want to serve them and give them my time, but I'm that's in my hands, right? And so I've got incredible balance now. We're paid like better than I could ever imagine that we would have been. What does the future hold? Like, man, I could I could niche and just work with certain companies and earn a fortune, don't get me wrong, but I'm actually doing enough now. And people like business, like business people are saying to us, guys, you need to have a look at your business. It's not that scalable, it's like scalable. That's not my why. I don't need scalable, I want to earn more money for my time, but I don't need it to be this big empire. And because my why was creating this balance and this and this this control that I've got for me and my family for this chapter, because whilst my kids are the age that they are until they're moving out and leaving the home, like that you know, 17, 18, whatever that looks like, I've got no control less control then, influence then. And so then you can look again, reassess and go, like, what is it that me and my wife are looking to achieve? And what are we going to do again with our time? And I think constantly having those chapters an awareness that life is a chapter. Your story is a great one of chapters from a childhood core or in fact band, bar, core, the old government organization, and then now this, you know, and you haven't stopped because you've already created a business called the next 45, right? I love that. It's it's all this constant journey of do, achieve, look back. Is that what it was? A tweak, adjust, move again. I love it, you know. And it's like I think that's the message of this chat, really, all this constant, not reinvention, because there's fundamental principles that you've you've worked those out, and there's no secret source. You know, there's these fundamental principles that we just keep having to apply. But start with the end. What is it you're trying to achieve? Take action against that, and then when you get there, monitor that. When you get there, we like seek feedback. What you got from the speaking event the other day. You know, we chatted about it, you were like buzzing about it, like it went really well. And obviously, the fear before you did it was massive, right? You've now gone, actually, got some money for it, brilliant. Wasn't ever the goal, but what I've learnt is feedback's quite good. People want to listen to what I've got to say. Well, that's revelatory sometimes, and you're like, Well, okay, well, maybe I could do more of this, and it's just you've learned by pushing that door. People will be listening, going, I've got an idea, I think I know how to start, but it's I'm I'm so scared of pushing that door and seeing what happens because I might look a fool. Now that never goes well, but you you learn by every single experience, and so you push open doors, Mike, and you kind of learn. Like, how can you help people push?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:27

Well, I would I was just on that point there. So I think when you say looking a fool, you look you look you you're talking about looking a fool to others. Fear of, yeah. Fear of looking a fool to others. If you don't start, then you're fear of looking like a fool to yourself. 100%. And I think that that is that is the thing. You've got to be happy with who you are right now and who you're gonna be, and ultimately who you're going to be remembered for, what you're gonna be remembered for. And I think that's the key. So I would just say live a life, and I think I when I reflect, and this is not by design, by the way, this is just the way my life centered up to this point. Um, but it has been multiple chapters, but I'm happy about each one of them. You know, I I never I achieved what I wanted to achieve in each one, and I think that's why I moved on. Like I didn't want to then just coast. I remember um in my ex interview for my my last job with my boss, um I remember him saying to me, because no one knew I was gonna do this by the way. We were in EMET for six months, got in this place, it was derelict when we moved in, and we painted every single wall ourselves, scrubbed them all off the walls, did it all ourselves. Um when he found out I was gonna do, he said, I'd love to do that, I'd love to join it. I said, do it. I can't, I've got 10 years to do my pension. I just I remember just thinking, I feel really sorry for you, man. Because you can't see past that, and you need to. I would say live a life you're really proud of, do great things for other people and have a meaning in your life that you can look back on when you're sat in a pub somewhere having half a pint of bitter shandy with a little whip it sat next to you, or you're on your deathbed. So we're up north now. Yeah, we're definitely up north. That's my dream, by the way. Uh just be proud of what you've done. Because if you're not, then what's it been for?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:22

I um I had a chat with a former boss of mine over a year ago now, and he was in the same boat on the face of it, getting incredible success. And he's like, I'm still I've got so much respect for this guy as well. He's like, Um, I'm still working it out, guys. I'm still like no one's got it worked out. And and if you're sat there the wrong side of the door going, I'd just love to wonder behind there, just go and have a look because no one's got it worked out, and you've got to try and sample things to work out what it is that you even enjoy in the first place. Uh, I've heard a lot about your kind of journey and your successes, Mike. But what what are the things that you're not very good at?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:00

I said this to my wife yesterday, actually. We I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:03

What did she tell you?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:04

I don't get much time off. Um, in fact, I get like an afternoon a week off. Um in so far as like if I didn't want to do any work, I didn't I don't have to. It's like yesterday afternoon I didn't do any work and I felt at a loose end. That's not good, and I recognize that's not good. I'm not very good at not doing anything. I need to get better at that. And that's actually a goal of mine to be able to sit with a book or watch TV without becoming distracted about the other things I could have got and achieve. Um, should I should I prepare better for that podcast tomorrow? Should I go and write that email? Should I check some numbers on that bar? I'm thinking I might want to open it someone else. That's another thing we're gonna do. Um, should I tinker about with a campaign? Actually, I need to get better at just saying stop and do nothing. Um so that's what I need to get better at.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:58

Can I can I just elaborate somewhat on that? Because I talk to people a lot about this. There's a lot of people that are highly successful in their field. Most of the people I talk to now are probably 70% business, 30% sport, but probably 70% business. And we've got one of my other podcasts we talked to with uh James King, and he talks about this four-color head model, and it's like we're talking about blue there. You you love to you're in your flow when you're busy, you're active, you're doing right. And what this space that you're also talking about is, or that you're probably not so good at is this green space, and it's not it's not sleep, it's it's it's it's active recovery, and you're it's where you're sharpening the axe, and it's almost like how do you unwind? What does unwinding and chilling out look like to Mike, you know, and if we because we need time to really to we we oscillate through full effort and we should be able to back off if we have full effort all the time, and you've obviously you obviously know how to do this because you wouldn't have had the longevity to your career. A lot of people we talk about overwhelmed burnout because they just they're full on, they're fully accelerating all the time, and they don't even know how to switch off. The time they switch off is when they close the laptop and try and sleep immediately, like doesn't work like that, and they struggle with sleep. And so, like, how like that unwind, you must have a list of activities that are things that you like to do that are recovery activities that are probably a little bit more I don't know, less relaxing that for other people, but for you it's it's time when you're sharpening the axe.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:34

So jujitsu, right? I mean, it's Hoyler Gracie, I think, who famously said that doing jujitsu is like being plugged back into the wall and recharged. And the reason for that, and again, I speak to my students about this, is if someone's trying to pull your head off, you can't think about anything else. You know, it's not like you're in the gym this morning. I was in the gym and again got distracted. I'm planning my staffing while I'm resting between sets. That's not good because I'm not fully present. Jiu-jitsu, you have to be fully present. So when I'm rolling in jiu-jitsu, and I always make sure I spar at least two or three times a week with my students, that's time for me to just do jujitsu. I can't think about anything else. You need to find those things, right? Um, that's probably the only thing I can do. I like to read and develop myself. Um, I do prioritize sleep. I know you've done a lot of stuff around sleep. I prioritize that. I eat well most of the time, not all the time, but I eat well. I train every day in the gym. Um I do do some things for myself, but um I wish I was better. No, I will become better at being quiet. I want to be able to sit down, look out of a window, just be happy being there. Just me or just my wife or just my kids and just be present. I'm not very good at that. That's something that I know I need to develop better in the future because that will give me the longevity. And I think that green space becomes larger as you become older, doesn't it? If you start to retire and things, you get more and more time. Or you just even if you're just successful in business, you're gonna find more and more time. I want to fill that with time to just be Mike.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:10

That'll be walking the whippets. Could be. You'd be walking the whippets, just being Mike with your whippets. We've got four cats at the minute, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So some way to go there, yeah. Yeah, I've got two cats and then enough, enough said. But uh you said about books, you said about maybe podcasts. What what are your books? What other you mentioned Victor Frankel earlier. What's the what's one of the the better books that you've read recently that's kind of impacted you? Well, that one, yeah, clearly.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:37

Um I read Stephen Butler's book, Happy Sex in the yeah, which I thought was quite good. CEO, this diary of CO, guys. Yeah, CEO. I thought that was good. That was he spoke about, and again, something I remember from there, about when the the 20 million quid or 100 million quid dropped into his bank account and he expected to feel ill and it nothing happened. Um and he also spoke about quitting for winners, um, which I I really believe in. Although Kev Simfield pulled me up on that, he said, I don't like you using the word quit. That's an everything. I was like, no, I think it's it can be a positive word as well. Um, podcast-wise, uh high performance again. Um I listened to a podcast called Happy Space with Fern Cotton a few times. I quite enjoyed that. It was different. I would probably want to listen to it, but I really enjoyed that. Um and I'm reading Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. If you if you haven't read that, you need to read that. Yeah, it's on my read list, it's on my read list. Change your change your view on how you prioritise yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:32

So I work with Martin Jones now, who's a he's a doctor of a few things, human performance, but um he's very well informed on sleep. It's a little bit um Martin's the is the level-headedness to where Matthew Walker's very um what's the word when it's dramatized. And they getting this right is really important. Um, and but it's a great book and it's definitely on the read list. I think we I think we all overlook it in many ways, and and especially as in the core, you know, I think from a very fundamental age where we were described as nods, yeah. So because we were falling, that's for those listening, that's because we've fallen asleep all through the day's lessons because you just weren't slept enough. Um, and we were taught that if you um could manage without sleep, then you were some sort of warrior, and uh ultimately the less sleep the better. And the time we got to recover the weekends, we were down in X to causing commotion and you know and weren't resting, and and it's just that culture to taught us maybe not the best habits, right? And I think un unpicking that is is been a fascinating journey for me. But again, it's so common uh in a lot of sectors where people just the natural, the norm is just full throttle and you know uh they don't they don't turn off.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:49

Uh I'll just say one more thing about the podcast and the books. So I'm mindful there that I probably didn't say anything that is revelatory. I think a lot of those books people have read. I would say that arguably the best books or the best podcast you can ever um develop yourself with is by spending time with good people and just talking. So there's nothing I love more than something like this, because I know you've got a wealth of experience that I can learn from and I enjoy um speaking to you. But people like Jamie Jones Buchanan, Johnny Graation, those people who've got a view of the world which resonates with me, but at the same time they're a little bit further on in certain areas, and surrounding yourself with those good people and listening to what they've got to say, sit down, have a coffee. I've got this issue, mate. What do you think? That's some of the best learning, I think. Um so I would say anyone who's wanting to improve themselves, they could definitely start by improving the social circles.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:47

Oh, couldn't agree more. Like this is my green space. This like having converse rich conversations with people that are interesting to me. You know, I've handpicked yourself to have this conversation because it's it lifts me. I'm I'm I'm I'm trying to understand your view of things, you've got your experiences, they're different to mine. Um, but I learned I'm learning and I'm I'm piecing together this this the world's most complex puzzle, which is life, right? And it's like you you've got your answers and they align so clearly with mine, but there also there's some differences, there's some nuances there, and it's like that's interesting to me. And I think just being inquisitive towards that, and I think understanding that this, like we said earlier, this this nurture that's of ourselves, this personal development, doesn't have to stop, and it never should stop, really. The day it stops is the day that you start to slowly decline into that into that six-foot box. Um uh and I think that's a shame. And I think people there's an abundance of information out there now from unbelievable people like Stephen Barler, um, you know, he's a great example, the guys that run the high performance podcasts, you know, there's there's an unlimited amount of information that you can choose nowadays to take in and to get into you. And and I think you know, if you were to produce a book, if you to write a book, to you know, I think you'd you'd do well because people have got a lot to learn from that. And I think like I'm gonna wrap this up now, Mike, because I think it has been great talking to you, it's been amazing. Um, I'm super grateful for your time. Um, you've got an amazing establishment here that is gonna keep going and growing because it's literally started that long ago and it's it's blowing up. Um, and it's because of these fundamental things that you've put into it, you've set it out the right way because your vision's quite clear. And let's stay connected because there's so much we could uh talk about and do. Um, looking forward to following the journey to the end of the year uh and then beyond with regards to the Atlantic Row, um amazing effort. Um, I'm not envious at all, um, but I wish you genuinely all the best. Everyone listening, immediately go on to Instagram and follow the Atlantic Grappler and check out what Mike's doing because it is pretty phenomenal. He's a great guy to be connected to. I'm sure you're happy with people reaching out if they've got messages, etc.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:10

I was gonna say, like, if if I can be of value to anyone, then if I'm able to do it, I will. If that means you want to come try jujitsu, you've got a place to come try to jujitsu. If that means you want to ask for advice or help, then do it, man. You know, I'm ultimately here to serve others, as I've always done. And uh that is my why. So yeah, I'm here, man, for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:35

Awesome. Just before I sign off, I've got a shout out to James Malone Photography Videography today. Um, you might have noticed if anyone's watching on YouTube, the three of you that watch on YouTube uh jest, but um that it looks a bit sexier because he's got his sexy mode cameras out, and uh so we're all good. Um so thanks for today, James. Megra appreciated, Mike. Thanks very much, buddy. Thanks, mate.