The Duratus Mind - Langley Sharp MBE - Former head of the Centre for Army Leadership

Lieutenant Colonel Langley Sharp MBE is the former head of the Centre for Army Leadership (CAL) at Sandhurst and responsible for championing leadership excellence across the British Army.  

Having himself graduated from Sandhurst two decades ago, his career in the Parachute Regiment, which included operational command at every rank, saw him deployed to Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Among his many varied roles, he led a counter-insurgency Task Force operation, commanded a Parachute Regiment Battalion and delivered the Ministry of Defence’s training programme for the London 2012 Olympics venue security, for which he was awarded an MBE.

He is the author of the British Army’s official account of leadership, The Habit of Excellence, distilling over three centuries of the Army’s experience in the art, science and practice of leadership.

He is the founder and director of the consultancy firm, Frontier Leadership.
https://frontierleadership.co.uk

Find his book link here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Habit-Excellence-British-Leadership-Works/dp/0241992184/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=2Y8N0U32HIX66&keywords=habit+of+excellence+paperback&qid=1669662169&sprefix=habit+of+ex%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Okay, so next episode of the Duratus Mine podcast uh today really and I again I I think I say this every single podcast now that I'm always excited with the people that I get to speak to. Uh I'm I'm I'm selective and able to select people, but today we've we've got uh Langley, uh former head of army uh centre of leadership, uh Lieutenant, former Lieutenant Colonel, now retired, um MBE, no less, and um really excited to where a conversation on on specifically the topic of leadership is going to go today. So welcome, Langley.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Hey guys, great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah, I always get worried when people say retired at my age, but uh yeah, well, transitioning sounds different as well. That's got various con connotations, connotations, yeah, yeah. But um, but yeah, so um former head of um army leadership, like the burden of responsibility that comes with that uh job role. Um, and you've recently distilled some of your thinking, Langley, into into a book. Um, you sent it through last week. I've I've flew flown through it, like genuinely, uh thoroughly enjoyed it. And um, I think there's gold in there for anyone uh interested in this journey of leadership. Clearly, there's a it's heavily weighted from the military perspective, but like the burden of responsibility of even distilling the leadership down into a book. I googled it earlier in 0.5 seconds, you get about five billion articles. So yeah, so talk to me. Um well, firstly, just how how did the book come about?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Uh so it I I the first thing I'd say about the books, my name's on the cover, um, but there's fingerprints of many on the inside. I often say that because it's like all things in life, and I'm sure most authors would say this um, you know, it's always a team effort, and that book definitely was a team effort. So it was actually the brainchild of um Professor Lloyd Clark, who's the director of research at the Cal, the Centre for Army Leadership. And um, he's worked there for five years. The the the Cal itself, the centre has only been uh it was only set up in 2017, so it's a pretty new organization. And there was a small team of us, and we were charged effectively with doing the army's thinking on on leadership or having that space to to engage with other people from different sectors, as well as clearly our own people across the organization to really understand what do we what does leadership mean to us, where are we going in the future, where we come from, all that sort of business. And um uh and the team is charged with writing the doctrine, and we reviewed it and updated it uh during my time there, which is which is a really good experience. And as we were doing that work, Lloyd said, Well, actually, um, you know, you know yourself, Gaz, that you know, doctrine is is is a sort of conceptual framework of thinking. It tells people um how to think, not what to think, and it's and it's some broad principles um about how we conduct our business. And so Lloyd said, What wouldn't it be great to have a book that that dives deeper into what leadership means to the British Army? Conscious that actually a lot of people look to the army and the military more broadly as a reference point for for leadership, right or wrong. Um, but um so we thought uh uh great idea to have a book so it would be it will enable our own audience, people in serving people to better understand it and put it into context, but also wider than and almost with an um altruistic focus, uh, an offer to a wider society to say, well, this is how we do things and why, and this is our context, and these are some of the lessons we'd like to share with others, but in so doing, almost providing a platform for discussion and debate so that we can learn off other people. So it was Lloyd's uh brain child as uh as I say, it took us about a year to pull it together. Um, I guess there's a slight uh fortune in that COVID um happened at the same time. I say fortune, because you know, every crisis has got its opportunities, and that allowed us a bit of headspace to to really um uh close the door and do some thinking. And um, and fortunately Penguin um picked it up as a our publishers, which was fantastic to have them behind us and um and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Very grateful they did. Um I've I've I'm a I'm an avid highlighter all the way through it. There's uh there's stacks of points uh you know that's how I uh I chew through things, I learn, I review, but um it's it's it's really good. And I know our listeners, I often get messages, um frustrations from people's partners more often than not of how much we cost them. But uh there's a lot of people listening that will no doubt dive into this because I'd recommend it for anyone in the leadership game. Certainly, you mentioned about how the army um or the military in a wider context is seen as having this greater understanding, maybe, or certainly a point of reference for leadership. Um and there's so much I want to say around that, but if if can we if we if we may just rewind a little bit? Um, just your story to getting to this place where you're the head, the centre of army leadership, um, and uh how that journey's come about. Do you mind just cantering through that for us for a minute or two?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, sure. Um, I guess I fell into the army. Um it depends where you want me to start with uh life-wise. Well, I'd always say I'd had a I've had a privilege upbringing, and I mean that not in the sense of uh money or wealth or what have you, but just in terms of very fortunate to have a loving phone, uh loving home. Mum, dad are extremely supportive, and I think a lot of my uh my characters as as as drawn from from them and what they they gave me as always into sport and and the outdoors as a kid. Um, at an older brother who I always looked up to, even though we fought like cats and dogs as kids. Um, but I I so I I had an inkling that I might want to join the army. I don't come from military background at all. My dad's a cleaner, uh ran a cleaning company until about four months ago, uh, 55 years. My mum's a psychotherapist, and uh, no one else in the family, but I'd always had an inkling and had an interest. And then I went to university in Sheffield and I joined the officer training corps, which is a bit like uh the reserves for students. And uh I remember getting to the end of my first year there, and I've been away on a uh the first look, I think they called it a weekend, the first weekend away when we dressed up in 58 pattern webbing, which you probably remember, sort of relics of World War II. Uh a hideous kit. And um, and I just spent 48 hours cold and wet, and the um and the boss there said, you know, at the end of the year, Langley, are you coming back uh next year? And I said, Not a chance. I said, I don't understand this military lark, and you know, how would anyone would want to do that as a career? And he said, Well, come come back in September after the summer camp and the adventure training package and um and see how you feel. And I absolutely love those, and and that was it. And the next few years I I I carried on, but even when I'd finished university, um, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And then a friend of mine was a reservist with the with the parachute regiment, and uh I I tried the TA course as it was then, Territorial Army uh commissioning course, and I failed. I was told I wasn't good enough. Um, so that was a bit of a a kickback. And uh and then my mate said, uh, no, just go for the regular commission, you'll be fine. Something's happened on the day, whatever. Um, don't look back, uh, go for it. So I I did, and I unfortunately I passed. I thought, well, who am I going to join? What regiment am I going to join? He said, Well, you're going to join the Parachute Regiment. I've already booked you on a look at life, two days with them. So um I thought this is ridiculous. Uh, you know, just about scraped through the regular course, let alone join um what everyone, what many people consider one of the better regiments. So, anyway, I I did spent two days with them, loved it. They sponsored me through Sanders. And fortunately, when I went through the interview selection, um uh they very kindly said, Yeah, we'll give you a place. And uh and that was a start of my 23 years, really, with um with the parachute regiment. I served in all three battalions um from a young platoon commander. I guess it's uh similar to you guys, we uh i i in many ways we were we were fortunate in in when we joined just because there was so much going on in the in the late 90s when I joined, I joined in 99, but in 2000s, um within my first 18 months I deployed to Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan, and then clearly Iraq and Afghanistan dominated our careers thereafter. Um so I I I was fortunate to get some real great experience, operational experience, which puts sort of theory into practice, if you like. And um, yeah, I kind of one of these people, I was never wildly ambitious, I never wanted to be the next, you know, head of the army or anything like that. Uh, I just always looked at the next job and thought, where would I like to go? Where am I going to have the most fun, have the most value? And um, I think if you enjoy your job, it's you're gonna give it 100%, and and the rest looks after itself. And I was just very fortunate to have the right opportunities and uh and sort of I went onwards and upwards. And then and just before the Central Army Leadership, I commanded one of the parachute battalions, which was that and the company command before that was um probably the highlights to my uh my career. I had a great time. Definitely, definitely gonna scratch around that.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Definitely gonna scratch around that a little bit. Um, further into this. Just just but I I want to just try and understand a couple of points. So, again, it's it's fascinating to me, at least. People probably less so listening, but we've got almost identical stories in many ways. Um, no military experience in our families. I've got an older sister and older sibling. And just out of curiosity, how much older was your bigger brother?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

So he was Spencer's two years older than me.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah, so I I my my sister was three and a half years older than me, and arguably, you know, I was competitive as a child in sport and kind of dominating me in in most things we did. Uh, and that taught me a lot of how to lose and how to just go again. And I certainly I wonder you said you fought like cats and dogs. Um, I wonder if again that you know being the younger sibling, it's maybe taught you that you know you have to be a little bit more crafty to get to where you have to go.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, possibly. Yeah, I think you also sort of uh uh encouraged me to sort of take my own path. My parents are really good at saying, you know, you you decide what you want to do and we'll back you, unless uh you know, clearly it's dangerous or whatever. But they'd always say, you know, you push the boat and we'll be behind you on it. And uh and my brother and I, when we were growing up, we were poles apart um in terms of personalities. He was he's a real character. Um, he you know was often in trouble, uh, didn't really get on with school or school didn't get on with him. Uh, but one of those one of these kids everyone everyone loved, but was just uh uh always wanted to do these things his own way, we wanted to be different. And um, and I I looked up to him and admired him for that. And I was the straight guy. I sort of got on with it and you know, I did my did my own thing. I was probably the boring kid. And then I think we he calmed down a bit in his late teens, early twenties, and I probably you know let loose a little bit more, and we met in the middle and we're and we'd be best friends for for life.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

But our stories align even more. Um just spoke my truth. But uh, but yeah, so but also with that, you you mentioned um you fell into the army, or more specifically, were pulled into the the parachute regiment. Um, as I'm sure you know, I'm former boot neck, and definitely not wanting to get into that debate um around the two organizations. I put them on the same page, certainly as the lead recruiter into UKSF. Um, they were the rich talent pools that I was speaking to on a on a weekly basis, and the people in there were the people that I was most interested in. Um, you you mentioned your your caution or your fear, whatever it was. Again, I can speak about that from my perspective. Uh I I didn't expect to be successful in the Marines itself. Um when I when I volunteered, but you know, was it a simple case of uh your friend who was saying, No, you are joining the parachute regiment? I mean, just just that that willingness to volunteer for something that you could see was arguably the most difficult challenge. Again, there's something in that for me. Is there a simple have you ever thought about that?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Um no, I haven't really, but I guess I guess there's a that there's there's always been something in me that is willing to give something a go, willing to give it a you know, willing to try and overcome a challenge. But there's also I think I guess we've all got it to a greater or lesser extent, that that element of self self-doubt. You know, am I good enough? Because and again, guys, you would have experienced this throughout your career. No course or or no unit to get into is ever as hard as as you think it is before you actually do it, no matter how hard it is. There's always this perception, not normally because you speak to the people that have come off of the course, so you always get the bad side of it, right? Or people who have passed and they're in, you know, big it up. Um, so uh of course it was you know, and and your butt but your background more so, but it was it was it was a you know tough challenge and some for various hurdles and what have you to get over. But um, I guess initially I thought that that's out of my reach. Um, but I was always willing to uh uh you know follow other people's advice that have been there and um and give it a crack. And I guess every turn, you know, when people turn around and said, Yeah, you've you've got it, what it takes for the next stage, whether I've sponsored it through Sanders or whether you know through the interview board at Sanders or P Company after that, and um, and then sort of every career stage after that, I think you just take one step at a time and uh and you and you give it your best shot. And if it doesn't work out, you you you recock and you go again and try something else.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

You do completely agree. Um, and you know, social media world, it will throw out that that that statement of get comfortable being uncomfortable, which you just described, and we can in hindsight kind of view each of those moments as a small step forward, where we're in the thick of it, we it seems a lot more important or much more challenging. And actually, when we're in that uncomfortable position, we hate it. Um you know, but that P company is again. I've not I've not been through that process again, comparable with commando training. I've got no doubt about that, but just kind of just from a perspective of transformation, and you know, I I talk about a performance, uh, sorry, experience accelerator. I'd imagine that um P companies exactly that it certainly was in Commando Training, just that experience accelerator, just how challenging for people listening were were things on a day-to-day weekly basis.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

There's no doubt about it, it's it was tough. Um and I think you look back and think, I wasn't that bad after all, but when you're in the thick of it, it's it's it's pretty horrendous. And it's supposed to be, right? It's supposed to push you to your mental and physical uh limits at that point in time. And it and it and it certainly did that for me. But you know, you're surrounded by quality people, you've got that the urge that you don't want to fail, you don't want to be that one and that they say no to at the end. Um but um so yeah, it it it it it was it was tough. And and I I like your expression there of an experience accelerator because it's it's it's often as Commando course and others other courses you've done, um, it's a reference point, isn't it? You look back on. And you know, people talk a lot about resilience today, and and and and the military is very good at providing you those experiences that just take you out your comfort zone, challenge you, take you out of your comfort zone, and then build that bubble of comfort and and and experience so that when you're in some tough times, you look back and think, okay, well, I've done that, or I've done that, so I can cope with this now. Um, and I think it's about building those experiences and putting more and more pressure on. And P Company was definitely one of those defining moments in in my career when I look back and think, okay, yeah, that's a that's a significant hurdle that I've overcome, and particularly certain events. Everyone talks about the stretcher race, you know, it's the infamous, it's the infamous um uh event on P Company that everyone refers back to because it's just such pain. In you could be the fittest man or woman alive, it's gonna it's gonna hurt from the first hundred metres. And I do remember being a platoon commander at at Catarick training our recruits about three years after I passed P Company. And of course, going back to my point, you forget what it was like and how hard it was. And the the Joes, the recruits as as we nicknamed them, and they were on the on the log, and I was getting all excited to run alongside them, and a couple of them fell off, and I was like, Come on, Joe! And I jumped on the log, you know, all full of bravado within about 20 metres. I couldn't even speak, I couldn't even breathe. I was like, I now remember what it was all about.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Yeah, yeah. So you forget you forget hindsight's a wonderful thing, and and those rose tinted glasses for sure. But again, again, we lean heavily into self-reflection and certainly personally reflecting and having those um getting it written down, it really helps you get context to that. When you look back, uh again, I've I I documented my career as I went through it in a personal journal, diary, not with any great detail, but uh, but just now it's it's almost it's such a good thing to have because I've got those experiences um documented. And because you say we can look back and just so easily forget. Again, we could we could compare stories like that all the time, and you know, having gone back as an instructor on a number of courses where um you think you remember how hard it was, and yeah, can be running next to somebody not carrying the same weight and and judging them in some ways, yeah. We've got to really be careful of that, and again, that comes back down to a number of leadership qualities, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Um but it's also appreciating that you know, a good example of when you're when you're an extra instructor, you may be five, ten years older, and you've had those other experiences that that have given you more physical and mental resilience. So you're actually in a a better place on the start line compared to you know an 18, 17, 18 year old young boy as uh as as they uh were then uh running along on a log for the first time. You know, it's a completely different mindset, not not just physically but mentally. And I love your I love your um your your discipline to write a journal. I did it uh twice in my career, uh, and I've tried many more times after that to keep one. One one during my time in Afghanistan on the on on one tour, and then one towards the end of my career. And I really value that and look back at those diaries now, and I wish I'd done it for the rest of my career. My dad said it when I was growing up, you must keep the diary. And I was like, Yeah, whatever, uh I'm too busy.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

And you also think there's just no chance of you forgetting this stuff, but I can't exactly it's electronic now, it's it's all it's all in a document that I've got. Um, and you can read back and review it, and you can think, actually, uh, there's no way I would have remembered that. You know, I just yeah, because it had just been complete, thankfully, it'd been completely compartmentalized and to to kind of try and forget it sometimes. But uh, but yeah, no, I mean uh recommend anyone doing that again. It's it's not a habit that I am uh habitual on right now, but certainly with self-reflective practices, whenever I'm trying to kind of review something that's happened, and I certainly like to think in ink, it's something we we work on a lot with our with our clients as well, especially when they're facing various different challenges. Um your career in the parachute regiment as a leader, and again, it's interesting to me that even that the relationship or the decision to be an officer, again, just for your information. You um I hope you I'm sure you're unaware, but I volunteered to be a Royal Marines officer initially, went in and they said, Oh, yeah, Gary or Gaz, you you qualified, you're also 18. Um, why don't you go away, get some life experience? So they recommended sheep shearing um in Australia. Ironically, I don't know what that would have provided me. They said, Go away, sheep shearing, get some life experience and come back in a year or two's time. Um, and I was like, Yeah, okay, sage advice. So left the room, thought about it for 10 minutes outside, and actually, I'm I'm really keen to go now. I was coming towards the end of my A levels, keen to go now. And so just went back in and volunteered as an OR. You went into um Sandhurst, and again, a lot of respect for Sandhurst. For those that don't know, it's uh the center for army officer development. Um, and again, this talk about experience accelerator, um, just the the years and legacy that is involved in that place. I've been there presented a number of times, and um it's it's super impressive. But again, that being in that environment, you know, we we work with groups that talk about getting to different streams and tidal streams, and you know, when you're in a an environment like that, you know, you're where you started that transformation that you went through. Um, can you share a little bit about that? And again, thinking of the the person listening that isn't going to get that experience, but maybe how they can join the dots with what they can do, you know, because it's hard to replicate that model.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Sandhurst itself are you talking about? Yeah, the experience of that.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Um, I I but I think what would I say about that? I mean, I had a fantastic year at Sandurst. Um, one of the few times in your career when it's you you only really have to worry about you. Of course, you've got your your mates left and right of you, but you you're not commanding anyone, um, you're not responsible for people's careers, people's lives, and what have you. So um it gives you there's plenty of time and scope to to um to to do well and to fail and you know try again. And uh uh and it's a pretty in intensive course, um, unlike other militaries like our American uh partners who do typically four years, including a degree. This is pure military training for for 12 months. Um, but it's uh it's a great course, takes you through the you know the the the basics of your profession through to commanding in and various different um uh environments and then and then a real sort of deep dive into uh leadership and and officership towards the end. So it's a really good uh journey. And and actually I think over time you say there's a real legacy there. I mean it's it's it's been running for um uh for hundreds of years, and uh, and I think that depth of history and culture that's there is is is all part of that inculcation of of joining the army and joining something special and joining uh a legacy that others have uh set before you. Um and all that is is important. We can perhaps talk about the importance of all that uh going forward. But um I you know I had a really uh good career, uh a good year there. I think one of the one of the real benefits that we you have of that experience, um you your staff are both um uh uh senior NCOs and um and officers you'll have a captain and a colour sergeant or staff sergeant that take you through training and having that that um that partnership leading you through that early part of your journey I think is um is really really beneficial particularly the colour sergeants and staff sergeants and I think that's quite unique to a number of armies that the the the bulk of your training is delivered by by those seniors with really experienced the people that uh you know very soon after you'll you'll have under your command. So I think I think I think that rich immersion uh we're very fortunate in the in the military in that we have time and space to get out and be trained and educated. And you know if you're talking about leadership there's many come you know most companies are they're on operations all the all the time whether it be public or private sector they're doing what they're doing every single time and it's very difficult for them to pause to stop and to take time out to do some education or do some training but it's absolutely pivotal. So we're really fortunate with those foundations are set beforehand and and space is allowed for that because it is a force multiplier there's no doubt about it so such that when you arrive in your unit your battalion you know you've got that ground and and then the real work the real development begins uh through through daily experience.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah I'm pleased you said that so again for those not familiar you was was your first appointment a platoon commander would that yeah B Company two power in North so you know daunting I'm I've no doubt but you you know for people to understand so uh typically a a youngish man with some training can what cannonballed into a group of you know warriors in many ways and seasoned warriors no doubt and yeah you know with the role of being in charge now that's the relationship where you're alongside a troop sergeant with a number of um talented corporals I'd like to hope um can you share that kind of you know when you're almost that managing up and managing down balance when you're you're new in the role I'm sure a lot of people can uh or listening can can can think of a time they've been maybe in a leadership position where they're new in role as well and that's the challenges and the thing the key things that help people cross that bridge.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah it's a great question and I've I've I've I've reflected on a similar sort of question. I've talked about it in terms of fellowship and I've talked about it in terms of the difference between command and leadership because it was absolutely stark to me. I only realised it in reflection years later but it was very stark when I walked into um into the room to meet my platoon for the first time so that was um as I say I joined B Company two power uh five platoon B Company two para on tour in Northern Ireland in 2001 um they'd already done four months of a six month tour so I was joining for the last two months down in Fermanagh and uh and uh Stu the guy I was taking over him said right let's go and meet the platoon and I walked into the room and it was a it was a room about the size of your average classroom with 30 paratroopers that lived there for six months in this one room triple bunk uh triple bunk beds um squashed in together and uh I got introduced as the new platoon commander and I remember staring across this room of of um rather um um yeah sweaty aggressive looking paratroopers in various states of dress some just come off patrol some in in their box of shorts or whatever they were um just got out of bed and uh uh and I remember this weight of judgment looking at me thinking you know who's the new guy what's he going to be like is he going to look after us um and it dawned on me then that that was the difference between command and leadership because command is as as we define it is the position of authority that is invested in someone in their in their their their rank or the position what have you and the responsibility and accountability that comes with that whereas leadership is this and I'm sure we'll talk about this human element of being able to connect and influence people etc um and and I thought this is it I'm actually commanding these people and I'm the least experienced in the room even the youngest private soldier has got four months on me of operational experience and my platoon sergeant Mick Southall was the youngest soldier to serve in the Falklands with uh with three paras 17 years old and I think you know this is a room full of it going back to your point as some quality NTOs great sergeant um and uh and all this experience is just staring at me thinking what do you know um so it it was tough it was it's a dawning experience when you think this is it I'm I'm in now um the rooms absolutely or literally stinking of experience it was yeah honking as you'd say it was yeah I'd uh I'll get that one in but uh how so your job in that and again people can relate to this your job as the the new leader coming in um is to build trust yeah to build relationships um you know what have you learnt the best ways to go about doing that um I mean I've probably learned and relearned as we all we all have but I mean that's what leadership is all about right to social relationships that ability to connect with people and influence people in order to achieve an outcome and um uh I think you know you're absolutely right and nailed it there straight away it's all about trust if you don't have that trust we often say it's the glue that binds if you don't have that trust between you and the people you're leading or you and you know the people you're following um then then the relationship breaks down you can't achieve anything um how how do you do that I think you just got to connect and the the you know the first and foremost it's just about it's really simple things I mean we call it servant leadership about serving the the needs of your people and looking after your people and knowing them etc and that's all absolutely uh you know rock solid truth um hence the motto of Royal Military Academy sounds is serve to lead um but what does that mean practically day to day it's it's just the little things it's just been speaking to people speaking to them on their terms asking them how they're doing what's you know what's going on what's happening today how's that how's the parents how's the kids how's the whatever you know it's just building those those micro conversations and um uh actions every single day that that that that that builds those relationships and and and it doesn't take much for people to realise actually this man and woman cares about me he gives up you know monkeys about what uh what what what you know my my role here um I think that's first and foremost there's lots more after that there's you know the ability to communicate effectively people will ultimately will look to you for your professional competence there's no doubt about it you can be the you know the friendliest guy or gal in the in the room that everyone loves would love to have at a party but if you're no good at your job um you know certainly on operations there will be no trust there at all because you're ultimately responsible for for for for their lives I think you've got to be you've got to be professionally competent um I think humility is absolutely important going back to your point about um you know there'll be a a whole raft of experience and throughout my career no matter how senior or I got I was surrounded by talent and I was surrounded by experience and interestingly slightly off touch but uh the higher you go up in an organization as everyone knows the breadth of knowledge you've got is is is is is expands but the depth of knowledge in certain areas you know you're you're not going to be able to capture that because you're surrounded by specialists so you've that humility I think is absolutely critical um to be able to to to draw on the experience of other people regardless of rank you know um um or or where they sit in the organisation um so yeah I think it's a whole mixture of things being able to relate to people having that sort of emotional intelligence to to to to to relate to them um being good at your job communicating well and um and and and being professional.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Great great answers as you progress through your career um and you've seen this breadth of talent um you know you know at no point again you know I I feel blessed in some ways with my military career to being in an environment where I've always been surrounded with with incredibly competent leaders to learn and develop myself from that was my hope. And I think what I'm trying to the the question is really when you've when you've seen other people yourself well what what is it that they've had that you've gone oh I I want to be have you got a specific example of a somebody who you've looked at and gone oh that man or woman has got attributes that that's that's what I want to be like as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Um uh so no no one person that stands out I think I've been fortunate like you to come across many great leaders and not so great leaders throughout my life let alone career and I think I learn you learn different things off different people right but I I I think the qualities that really unite the people so I'll name a few because uh it's always dangerous naming people because you'll forget others and um if anyone's listening think what about me but James Martin um is quite a senior officer in the British Army now I know Colonel James Martin as well as he was when it was yeah yeah so and um I think general general james now so um you know phenomenal leader was my boss previously um absolutely had your back bright capable understood the bigger bigger picture could relate the tactical action into into that bigger picture um great decision uh making um he built a headquarters that that that was absolutely supportive of me and my guys and girls and um gave us the freedom to deliver on what we needed to deliver uh and yet were there for support held me accountable when when I needed to be you know just uh and and just strong morals and and and the going back to that point of communication able to communicate with the youngest recruit all the way up to the prime minister you know um really impressive individual and there's a number of others uh like him uh junior NCOs senior NCOs Corporal Scarrouths Sergeant Curry there's my my RSM Den Starkey you know uh and again there's qualities of those individuals utterly professional moral courage um could could communicate with the senior officer or the young again the youngest recruit and um on on equal on equal measure and individuals that everyone looked up to there's also people uh outside of the military I mean I I boxed at um Winker Bank uh chim in in Sheffield Brendan Ingall who's a world class um uh boxing trainer and anyone in the boxing world will will know him sadly is no longer with us um trained four world champions and many others um and he was just a wonderful man who he wasn't just there to to teach boxing he was there to you know give give young kids no matter what their background a step up in life and he used to teach life skills in there not just boxing skills and and I look back on people like him they weren't in it for the money or the fame they they were in it because they love their job they love their profession and they genuinely cared about people and I think those sort of tenants resonate across the whole great leaders mass massively um uh yeah a lot of respect for the your examples I know a few of the individuals um what you've just touched on there you you mentioned with with Brendan Ingall uh specifically but uh when in in your role in various different command appointments but then as the the centre of army leadership what how do you uh sort of individualize people's development you know what's the you know clearly there's procedures there's various different training opportunities that can develop it with operational experience but you kind of given some thought to individualizing people's development because that you know we're all very different have got different needs is is that something you've you've given much consideration to previously um I'm smiling because we spent over a year um on a project called Project Brammel which we managed to get exco endorsement on and about 10 million pounds of investment over 10 years. A year later I don't know where it's got to I'm out of touch but that's exactly what it was all about and we've we've phrased it as the next stage of professionalizing British army leadership and our premise was that you know we've taught leaders and leadership um for centuries right and we've professionalized it in the last few decades with our doctrine and our ever improving training and and and edge education but our fear was that the net not the fear we were we we weren't personalizing it enough um you know people were getting educated the people were getting that education and knowledge put into context through training and and people were um taking lessons away for themselves from those experiences and then of course the where you really learn as I said earlier is in the day-to-day in barracks and operations but but I think the army has uh and many other organizations that are the same um can afford to do more in terms of personalising that which was what Bramble was really getting after um now it's very difficult to say how do you have an individual pathway for 70 000 people but there's lots of ways that we could and uh um um improve that you know there is coaching coming in now uh more so at our sort of senior level um uh there's psychometric testing uh personality tests and self-awareness tools that out there that that that are starting to come in but I think it's also about joining joining the dots we were talking about you know if a young soldier joins up has a does some psychometric testing self-awareness uh reflection uh puts that into context in training and then goes back and then their you know chain of command um specifically uh uh manage their development over a couple of years before their next career point and they go on to the to the to the next career stage uh career course and there's there's specific leadership evaluations that happen on there because a lot of our courses are still command focused they teach leadership and you and of course you're expected to lead in certain training scenarios but I think there's more we can do to actually dive into the strengths and weaknesses of people's leadership specifically and then you can you can just slowly build up that evidence uh over your career um and that allows your chain of command to to really target your own your own development but I think and it goes back to something you said earlier on and I've had a couple of conversations in the last week actually the real force multiplying a lot of these things is is that reflective practice that ability to look back and how how many times have you gone throughout your career the SF are really the SF community are really really good at this they come off the ground I'm not talking about leadership now but more broadly they come off the ground and really robust after action reviews hot debriefs after action reviews focusing not on what we did right but what we did wrong um or you know how we can improve it for the next time and your elite sports teams there's many other good examples out there legacy James Crow everyone knows that there's a great example in there where New Zealand just thrashed whales 40 42 seven and they come in and they just focus on where they could have done done better for next time and um uh but that that that rigid focus on on self-reflection I think will really take people to the to then to the next level um hence why sort of coaching is is is taking a hold in and out of the military now because I think you know if you if you're able to dig into a couple of layers below the surface that's when you really learn.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Yeah I could I couldn't agree more and again no one um by definition was my coach um or defined mentor through my career but there's lots of people that coached and mentored me through my career. I absolutely see there being um a position for that in the military um lots of positions for those whether they're external or internal coaches mentors but then also within business you know I think that's a trick that most people because it's almost it's it's that sense of vulnerability of well there's there's things to learn. Well yeah right there is things to learn five billion articles in 0.5 seconds right yeah there's a lot to learn and why would you think as a leader in any given situation that you've if it's complex that you've got the uh the the best answer well that's that's humility right out the window that you should even consider that I actually just with what you were saying I feel lucky towards the end of my career I was going to a lot of these command courses to to speak to the people on them as as a rich talent pool potentially of people that might may be interested in a a career in SF and um so the the captain's cards and the the the majors carders at various different locations but then also uh it was it was Brecon where we used to go down to the the junior Brecon and senior Brecon and speak to those boys alongs alongside in the Navy and the Marines as well. And um I remember myself being on those courses and and at the time we in line with what you were just saying about that self-reflection at the time like again what we did in pool we would send our guys um out to back to the Marines or back to uh Brecken if they were our army cap badge to go and conduct this command course which at the time seemed like an epic waste of time because you didn't value that experience at the time now and again we came back more often than not with great results and were able to compare ourselves some social proof against some quality people and see that we did all right we fared well and we came back with broader experiences often that we were very happy with where we were and we made the right career choices with regards to the the the the sector we worked in but um we then kind of were able to lean on some of those experiences uh because it was in a safe ish training environment and I look back now quite richly on those experiences because it did teach me an awful lot and I actually had a conversation towards the end of my career with a good colleague friend of mine and he was saying oh we can go to Liverpool University and go get a get a degree in leadership if we you know do this that and the other and I was like do we really have to quantify our leadership acumen with a degree in it through a university in Liverpool you know and and I was pretty unhumble about it and then I reflected walked away and thought how much do I actually know about leadership if I wrote it down certainly a few years ago not a book's worth of information and uh I was you know I was thinking well actually there's a there's an awful lot to learn because it's such a broad subject and so you know I've really value those learning experiences now and again wish at the time I'd have valued it probably a little bit more the beauty of hindsight like we mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

And I and I think that bit about education is is is really really important and often it's about making conscious what you already know. So the the breadth of experience you would have had over your career you could probably read that that book or any other leadership book and think yeah I know this but you may not you may not uh it may be sitting there in the in the subconscious because you haven't had that chance to reflect I think that's the beauty of a sort of wider education just because it opens your eyes. I often say about leadership um and and and it goes back to your point right at the beginning about that the the the the book is is military focus and it absolutely is it's the British Army's perspective um but I but I often give a talk that uh about the fundamentals of the fundamentals endure and um uh and the fundamentals the context is very different but the fundamentals are the same across every sector and I don't think I've I often say I don't think I've had a conversation in the last two or three years where I've been thinking about this and reading you know extensively and speaking to people from all different sectors. I don't think I've had one conversation where someone has said something fundamentally new about leadership to me. It's all right rather intuitive what but the beauty of it is is it it it brings it into your consciousness and and a bit like self-reflection if it's in your consciousness then you're gonna be better for it because you're gonna you're gonna be more important and and and you have introduced some new thinking from your book there's not everything in there wasn't a case I've heard this before at all.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

But like I I forget who said it it's that quote uh people need to be reminded more than they need to be told and just being bringing it into your conscience again it absolute vital skill and whether that's fresh ideas fresh stories and again um big thing that I'm leaning into now with with our groups is just that having a really rich story to tell a lesson or to teach something in my old world in training environment it would off any lesson would be preceded with a story of where to give it context and again we were lucky with having those experiences and I know now why that's so with how the mind works um we've we've used great storytellers but no one wants to be the storyteller in our old organizations because that's got various connotations and I don't want to be that person but it's uh it's it it's doing it the right way and again making it about us and we rather than about I. Yeah. Your own personal experience not to put you on the spot but uh kind of the worst leadership experience or example that that you learnt from that.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Do you have uh any sort of examples or stories around that um I don't about experience I I say experience in terms of individuals and going back to your point about you know who are the best leader or leaders you've learned from I think in the same way I've probably learnt as much if not more from those that weren't good leaders. Of course um in the same way you you learn more from failure than success right so um I and I'm I'm definitely not going to name names here but as a platoon commander as a captain I worked for I worked for a number of different majors over the years but there were a couple that that that spring to mind that have very sort of similar qualities in terms of their poor each in fact I look back and didn't think they were leading at all they were commanding you know they would live in their rank and they would they would talk to you and they would talk to those below them in a very different way to those above them and um and and and it goes back to your point about trust and they weren't particularly professionally competent and they often make poor decisions or didn't communicate them effectively. um and and and all of that could be seen through and so there was no trust there was no respect there and uh and that and that was really difficult when you've got people like that and you're and and many people have had similar experiences in different organizations with the line managers and what have you and how you how you deal with um individuals like that but i think i think you the the the beauty or the advantage of those experiences you think okay that's that's something i absolutely need to avoid you know that i can see the effect that that individual is having on on me on my my my mates my colleagues and the the organization more broadly the climate that they're they're set in and i think those are ironically valuable experiences couldn't couldn't couldn't agree more the uh i always think back you know we are you know by our very design wired to recognize bs right we and and because it's potential threat exactly potential threat to our security and so and that lack of authenticity of somebody stood there that's in some ways sometimes presenting a facade to protect themselves or their own lack of uh willingness to express some vulnerability and make it sound too complicated but just to stand there and put a front on to kind of say well i i've got the answer here well be scratching around that that's probably unlikely and actually it's born from fear of judgment in many ways definitely you know we could we we can learn from that so much but it's hard though right it's hard to really be vulnerable in a leadership position when you've got this group of people around you again certainly my experiences are that the times that you are honest about that just builds trust rather than presenting the facade absolutely people can just we're hardwired to see it right absolutely and as and there's always a balance as you as you know you know you you can't be too vulnerable all the time there's a place to be vulnerable place to not but absolutely um because if you're not then there's um uh I I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of those individuals and there's one other who is more senior and and uh goes as far to say the the the toxic word um that I think they lacked they lacked inner self-confidence um and um and and this front was there to protect them uh absolutely I often say I I hate giving lists of you know leadership qualities what makes a great leader and you know it's always dangerous going down lists and what have you attributes but there's one that always stands out and I guess it goes back to your question about the you know the qualities that the the same across all work leaders I've come across is is is self-assuredness and it's that inner self-assurance I may have already said this excuse me if I'm repeating myself but it's that inner self-assuredness and it's not it's not um necessarily it of course it comes out in in an element of confidence certainly not overconfidence and arrogance which is I I detest um but it's it's that uh self-assuredness inside to be confident about making decisions about confident in um taking risk it's about confident in letting true letting your your um control go and empowering other people's this can uh self-confidence and assuredness in in having humility in knowing that other people are better than you and have more experience in you regardless of what rank they're all the stuff we've spoken about um I think it's such a strong quality uh and I think that's that's the one that really stands out for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

I agree and a lot of that comes down to um when when you're saying that that self-assuredness you know formed from making the right decisions based on what you know at the time i.e moral courage to say I I believe this is the right thing to do. Now you've always got to live with those decisions.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I'm sure you've got experiences I know I certainly have where I can hand on my heart say at the time I thought I was making the best decision for the group myself um and and and I stand by that to this day um and and that therefore we can deal with that and I think leaders would struggle if they asked themselves that question and say I was I was maybe thinking a bit selfishly or actually on reflection that that probably wasn't the right call uh based on things I did know at the time if I'd have just taken a bit of a what we call a Hamlet moment on the condor moment definitely yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's also appreciating you're absolutely right um uh in fact I there there was um uh a lady I was having a conversation with the other day she made a decision I won't go into these she made a decision and then um and she said she was worrying about it all night all night and she phoned up the next morning and she said I'm gonna have to revert my decision I'm sorry um but I I didn't take as we would call it that Hamlet that condor moment when when perhaps I I should have and I really respected her from that because she could have just let it go but there would be wider implications in terms of the perception of of of her not being true to herself and true to to the rules and regulations or whatever it may be that others others would then look at her um uh as a result and um and I thought you know that you you had moral courage to to do what you did there and and I thought that was um that was great.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

There's there's also come on I was just going to say you can only you can only you can only um make a decision and then accept the feedback or the action the action gives afford feedback and then you can adjust test and adjust and and so like the U-turn based on new information that's so much stronger than just firing on regardless. Absolutely and again this that you know it's a balance of yeah we I mean this is the classic u-turn this is all over the news at the moment isn't it but um you know I dare I say I think yeah that's one area as well our our political um masters would would would learn a good lesson and I and I get why they don't because it's it's it's literally so political and and divisive as a as a as a as a culture um and unfortunately the media and other political parties jump on that as a negative but you're absolutely right if if if you make a decision and on reflection or with trusted people around you saying actually you made the wrong one there having the humility to turn around say yep got it this is why I made a decision but I'm gonna change it and this is why let's move forward positively and not wait so you have to be forced to make that decision um uh you know too far down the line then uh that that that's got to serve to your strength and and again going back to your point and enhance trust at the end of the day really really important absolutely um I'm super conscious of time uh there's a few questions I really want to unpick you've you've lived a a busy career you're a you're a husband father um balancing intense career with family life uh we touched on it briefly before we started recording wish I'd already started recording but uh uh there's a lot of people that in the exec world that I speak to that wrestle with that um in only a minute or two what what have you learned Langley in that space that have really uh helped you keep balance um on the whole uh you can ask my wife whether I actually kept it um I I definitely haven't kept the balance at times um I think there are times when so long if you set the conditions where you are if your focus is going to be work um if you set the conditions then then you're in a good place so when I was uh one of my tours in Afghanistan again six seven months my wife was absolutely brilliant she said right this is your time go to I've got I've got the family and she set herself up at uh at home uh with the kids went to live with her mum uh and the conditions were set allow me to focus what I had to do same when I was command nostr uh she said these are your two and a half years I've I've got it and she's an absolute rock she's a legend and uh and it enabled me to focus and there are other times in fact when I was at the Center of Army Leadership COVID kick kicked in we were doing the book we were helping the NHS doing lots of other work and we we we were had a great team and really enthused by what we were doing but I just I just did too much. My wife is saying well you just finished command this is supposed to be some balance now and you're still here at 12 o'clock at night or whatever it was doing work um so I I think you've got to be really conscious of of when you focus on work and where and when you don't and I think one of the one of the real advantages and I I'm as you say I'm now recently left the army and that was a family decision um and it was in order to settle the kids for for school uh I left on a high still love your organisation um but but I I reached the point where I thought no I've got to give back and um unfortunately I've I've now managed to get that and still doing very enjoyable work but but getting that balance with the family you've yeah it's crazy again life in truth has chapters again we're we've we've got a similar story with regards to that you know my my decisions were formed on very similar reasoning and uh conscious of missing out way too much and also not supporting um them in the way that I wanted to do as a as a father and a leader of the my family right and so it was important to me to to have make that decision as well tough decision that it was and um we won't dig around how that's going managing business and also keeping balance right it's uh it's a challenge in itself yeah it is a challenge for sure um but with that in mind uh like how how does Langley unwind what does what does relax and recover and reset look like for for yourself ironically and myself and my wife are the are the same are our our unwind is not necessarily relaxing is exercise as we were speaking about before um that's my release valve that's heather's relief valve release valve um when you're stressed when you're you know burnout whatever it may be just go for a run go to the gym rounds on the bag whatever it may be uh other than that genuine relaxing I'm afraid in it includes a bottle of wine um or a couple of glasses at least uh and and just be able to sort of detox and sit in front of the TV or spend time with the family in fact one other is um we just got some pigs in so spending time gonna feed the pigs is uh real mindfulness as they say nowadays yeah like so I love it each of their own for some people it's choir for some people it's riding a horse and absolutely pigs um I love it um last question and we always like to leave uh people with a a kind of um some gems myself aside from the book which all good book stores the habit of excellence um that I've mentioned already you know any any books or podcasts that you'd um you'd steer our listeners to I I would definitely steer you to a book I'm trying to find it on my bookshelf now Man's Search for Meaning Man's Search for Meaning Victor Frankel um I I mean your reaction says it all probably the most compelling book I've ever read read it several times I often refer to it um a remarkable story um all about freedom and responsibility from a man who lost his in the most horrific of circumstances as a uh um a prisoner of war in Auschwitz and Dachau and many other concentration camps and I mean his story and his reflection on how he survived is just utterly remarkable. But yeah that's that's the go-to book yeah our listeners are familiar with that and I've banged on a number of times but but I mean we we we almost need to hammer that point home it needs to be read and understood. We talk about context our backgrounds afford us some context and perspective like like completely submit to the experiences that Victor experienced and kind of learned from with regards to resilience and perspectives you know you you know you mention it there it's a fascinating book. I'm so pleased it got it got written and because of the decisions that were happening on a daily basis during that time it very nearly didn't um so no it's it's an amazing book.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

There is one other yes if you want a fresh one it's Ordinary men and uh Christopher uh Browning I think his name is Ordinary Men and it's about the similar sort of uh period and issue actually and it's about um a police battalion in in Poland who were charged with um rounding up um and and in some instances killing um uh Jewish people as part of the uh Holocaust and just the psychology of of the different people that were involved in that why they did en masse why they did what they did and um in terms of understanding human psychology uh it's a fascinating book um again a disturbing read but but really insightful and and in an important lessons we must learn thanks no that's really useful Langley I appreciate that um where can people find you my friend um steer them towards your things I'm more than happy with that great uh well you've already mentioned the book which is very kind of you the paperback's out on the 3rd of November uh hard back I think some copies still are available on Amazon uh on my website uh frontierleadership uh co.uk uh or I'm on LinkedIn be great to hook up with people yeah for sure and uh as we were saying before uh we're moving in similar circles um I welcome any collaboration or stuff we can do together if our pat's cross then I look forward to a coffee or a pint uh glass of wine or bottle glass of wine and a walk with the pigs yeah absolutely thanks for your time brilliant appreciate it thanks a lot guys much appreciated