The Duratus Mind - Jason Fox, Ollie Ollerton and Richie Mann

Over 67 years experience of 'pushing the envelope' in one room.  So much UKSF experience on one podcast has never before been done in the UK.  Listen to the 4 individuals talk all things mindset, resilience, performance, mental health and the SAS Who Dares Wins TV show - to name just a few things.  Do not miss this one!

Follow the team at 
Jason Fox on instagram @jason_carl_fox
Ollie Ollerton  @ollie.ollerton
Richie @richardmannonamission

Duratus UK 
Insta = @duratus_gaz
Facebook = @DuratusUK
Twitter = @DuratusUK

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Ticking timer. We've had an absolute hell. You've just missed about 40 minutes of some of the best chat you've never heard. 67 years of uh experience all been spun out onto a extent that we can hear. We were talking about optimal performance and uh and we didn't press record it. We needed an intro producer in it. Yeah, where's you know where's Sammy?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Sammy Land's fault this is uh I I did actually look at that square and I thought green must be for Go. I don't work in the TV world, fellas. You should know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

How long are we going for? Well, how long you got now? Because obviously we've got the table. So go around the table then um when Ollie gets back. But uh what we miss, what we covered so far.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Okay, so a summary of what we've covered, which we're about to cover again.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Fox's feet.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Is my feet, your hairline. Richie's hairline. We haven't even we haven't even bothered with Richie's hairline. And then basically our sort of journeys to where we are now to it in a in a sort of mix.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

So Richie Mann, performance coach, Gaz Bamford performance coach, um, and Jason Fox TV star and Oli Olerton TV star. Um like we said, 67 years of uh militaryslash SF experience in the room. Not doesn't happen very often. It's really good to uh share some stories and some insights really into the mindset of how the sort of certain people can motivate themselves to do. I'm gonna use the word extraordinary things. Um it feels uncomfortable saying it because you just we were always just doing what we like to do, but um, on the face of it, certainly taking some of the risks and chances that you do. Um that's Ollie. That's good just to explain the noise. Do you want to wear? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good personally. So, yeah, so um that's what we're gonna talk about. So, Jace, your reasoning for joining the military.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Joining the military is it it can be summarised very quickly. I grew up in Luton, I wasn't academic, I didn't do well at school, I was getting into trouble when I left, and my old man used to be a Royal Marine, so I'd heard stories about the Marines, and so rubbish some somehow, yeah, rubbish dips. So, but somehow, subconsciously at 16, I knew I needed to get myself out of that, and so because of that slight influence from my dad, I went and joined the Corps.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Okay, Richie. Um yeah, I I sort of summarised before, but it was it's um as training, kickboxing, tie boxing, boxing. I feel like I've heard this. Yeah, you may have done English. Um just yeah, training, just training loads and loads. Never even thought about joining the military, and then a guy that had gone on holiday, his cousin was a Marine, and I was at college, totally clueless what to do with my life at the age of 16, 17. Um, saw the glossy brochure, the Marines, and rest of his history. Next moment I was in the careers office doing pull-ups with some fat Matlow looking at me.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Wishing he could do the same.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Yeah, um, I got into a lot of trouble when I was a kid. Um, around about uh just when I got through that sort of crazy phase of uh a few run-ins with the police, um, etc. etc. And it was it was a decision I'd made. It's it felt like a natural progression for me at 14 years old, and I actually decided to wanted to join the military. I think I think it was the Marines straight away. I just wanted to be in the military.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Was that something to do with the Sornov shotgun incident?

SPEAKER_03 4:21

That was something to do with the Sornoff. I wasn't actually gonna mention the Sornov shotgun. But um it's it's in the public domain anyway. So but that's a long story. But um, yeah, so it was really uh I don't know, I think it was um yeah, it was that at that moment at 14 years old. I'm joining the military. Uh you know, I wasn't I wasn't bad at academia, I suppose, but um I just wasn't interested.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah, so not a dissimilar story. Um I read Bravo 2 Zo as a kid. Soda seed, watched TV shows about the Marines following MLs, etc. It just looked exciting. I was looking for excitement adventure and it seemed to offer that. No one back home, my perception was thought that I would pass it and uh I did, and uh then went in. But I was just I had no information, and this is what we were talking about. I had no information about what it was going to take to get in. I was happy with that and just went and did it. People had passed before, I was content that I would be able to, and then I've kind of followed that through going through my career, never been fully informed, was willing to take a bit of a chance, a bit of a punt, and get into sort of military careers, but then sort of transition out as well, um, and just how that's had an effect. Um yeah, so experiences whilst you were serving what was it in what wasn't happening in the core for you and why did you want to join SF all three of you? Go opposite way around, go for it, Ollie.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Yeah, I'll tell you, I when I first passed out of training, I I went straight to Northern Ireland, that was my first tour, and then um we came straight back from that and then we're called out to Desert Storm. Um But I don't know, I came back from there and I was I was pretty I'll tell you what, I was I was in Northern Ireland and as a young lad, um this is how my first I was I was I was disillusioned at a very early stage in my career. And I had a I don't know if you call it an epiphany, I don't know what to call it, but I had a a realization pretty shortly after getting to Northern Ireland. I I I I kind of I looked at the things they were asking us to do and I didn't have a I didn't have any faith in what was happening out there. I I I just came up with this assumption that all these jobs they were asking us to do, all these sort of missions, operations, whatever, it was just away. Not that, it was just the fact that I didn't believe there were there was any credibility in him. They were just putting us on the ground as bait, you know, with cannon fodder because they wanted they obviously got their information, their intelligence from the follow-up. You know, and I I I just had that realisation. I just I just then realized I didn't want to be part of that cannon porn. Yeah. I didn't. I just I and also the fact that I you know I wanted um it just wasn't sharp enough for me. You know, it's just I wanted something I wanted and actually knowing that it was there, knowing that something better out there was the driving force for me. You know, if that wasn't out there, maybe I wouldn't have been I may I maybe I would have learned to be satisfied, but when you know there's something out there that you can better yourself, there's a there's a bigger part of the pie you can have or whatever. That was that was the driving force, you know. And really for me, I had no belief in the fact I could do SF. It was actually my officer from T5 Commando that saw me one day when I was had my notice in to leave who said if you don't leave, you're gonna regret that for the rest of your life. If it wasn't for him saying those words, give me that tiny bit of confidence I wouldn't have put in pressure. If he never had again ever I met him, I met him, he came to one of the courses we do here. Yeah, um he's ever not on a course, not on a course, but he brought his boys over to meet me. I've not seen him since the last time I saw him was two nineteen uh ninety-two. And that was the last time I saw him, and then yeah, he's he's he got in touch because of he read my book and then he came and uh came to visit me.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Um is that story in the book? No, right.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

No, no, it's not it's not in the book actually, but he came to visit me and if it wasn't for his words, those few words he said that night, I wouldn't have gone through it.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Until you said that, but you know how you again I I I was in the Marines when uh we used to have a Paul guy serving within the commando, and there was uh mention his name. Um I've got I've got uh editors right, so I'll just edit it out my troop commander version. It was almost like, well, he seems like he's making it up a little bit. You know, that's not that high achievement. I feel like I could probably do that. And it was like almost closed that gap from my yeah understanding of what uh yeah, perception of who these guys were, brought it right down to earth and goes, Well, I could do that. Um another guy called Big Bird, who you may or may not know, and that's what we called him, I don't even know his name. Really tall ex matter, actually. Um yeah, it was like he that is really achievable, and um yeah, it's interesting sort of how that happened, but and but that was my impetus. And other people had a go that I knew that I thought, well, I'm at least as good as them in my own mind, and and managed to crack it. What about yourself, Richie, with core and um stuff?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

God, it seems like listening to Ollie is like we're at the same time, weren't it? Because I came straight out of basic training, straight to West Belfast, North Howard Street, Mill, you know, um sweat, young face, young face 17-year-old with hair. Um I was like, I don't know, yeah, I I think the same things. I was I was uh really still interested in in boxing and ended up on the boxing squad for a while and I was sort of playing around with things, but I I got to that point where it genuinely felt like it was either stay or or do something different, the SF thing, or leave. It just didn't, it was a bit of an anti-climax basically, in the unit of the time uh for me. And I just thought, and then I don't know, I just started to think, you know, Paul started looking at that a little bit more. A couple of guys that I'd known that had done Paul, and and you think you know, they were good guys, really, and and so on. Um been successful, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they've been successful, um, good guys, and then I suppose that there's that sort of you know, you doubt yourself, don't you? You know, the the doubts are there and you think still do, yeah, still do all the time. And you know, in anything that you you do, and I think that's one of the things that people think that you know, the the people sat around the table here, you know, and you see the guys, you know, obviously on the show and all that kind of thing. It's like that there are no doubts. Well, I mean, that's one of the things that we work in, and you will work in a lot in the psychology bit is you know, the fear is is it's always there, and the doubts and all that sort of stuff, and was I good enough to I I always uh deep down I knew that I was sort of fit enough and I could mentally take myself down into very sort of I suppose deep rabbit warrants of of like keeping in there and hanging in there because I'd uh I suppose I was talking to someone the other day just when I was in Nottingham doing my tie boxing before I'd even joined the core, I was doing sort of three-hour sessions with these uh monster fighters, you know, and sort of you know, the ages sort of 14, and I knew I could really sort of push myself, and that was that was a thing that kind of helped me, I think, to do it.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

I massively agree and relate to that. So, what what do you think is that what is that? Is it constant little improvements that have got you to that understanding and willing to challenge yourself, or do you think there's something inside you that has just got that no quit attitude?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I think there I think with all of us probably there is a no-quit attitude at some point. And I and I f I usually find I'll speak for myself here, but when you get into the the more sort of challenging it gets, the deeper you dig in. Yeah. Um and that that's what really sort of helps. I mean, I think um going into a broader perspective, I think knowing myself as I've got older has come from dealing with anxiety, dealing with doubts, dealing with those those sort of things. And I think as Foxy was saying there uh earlier on, um you'll come back on to probably come back on second time round. Um yeah, just just being able to sort of um deal with the doubts and and sort of move forward with them, despite of them, anyway. In spite of them, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

So Foxy, your um experiences in the corps and then why you went SF.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah, I uh I I went into the Corps and then I actually joined the SBS as a signaller, so I was attached to them and I was there for a a decent period of time. So that was something that had already wet my appetite, but I still hadn't fulfilled my goals within the corps. I still wanted to go out there and do the sort of GD work of just being a soldier because I was a signaller before, and so I did. I went back to a unit, joined Recce Troop, had a look at the ML world, which was another route I was considering to go down. But then in the end, if I'm honest, and this is not taking anything away from the Royal Marines, but I loved soldiering, but I just hated the bullshit that goes with working in a Royal Marines unit, which there was there is a lot of you can't get you you cannot get away from it because it does operate with very young guys straight out of training. There needs to be that sort of what everyone would imagine, yeah, the regimented way of life. And I saw, having had my experience of pool, I just saw it as a more grown-up unit where you're given a lot more autonomy, although also a lot more rope to hang yourself with if you want to, but you know, as a even as a young Marine or a trooper, whatever you want to call them, you were given far, far more responsibility, and I already knew that. So the the decision was made, and then you know, in 2001, Twin Towers are hit, that then gave even more purpose, and off I went. But with regard to the the the doubt thing, I had there's always that doubt, but for me, this was my last make or break, and I just gave myself no choice other than to continue and try and get into the the SPS because otherwise I was going outside, and then that would I didn't know what I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah, I forget what that's called, but almost having that goal where there's no fallback plan. Yeah, so yeah, it was so for me, I was very much gonna punch out if uh I wasn't whether I would or not, I don't know, but that was the sort of thought I had that the military wasn't doing it for me, and same as you, Foxy, Twin Towers has happened, and I was like, I need to help that situation. So I volunteered and I knew a few people that had gone before me and they'd been successful. I knew a ton of people that had been unsuccessful, but um, the people that had been successful, I thought I could do that, and so I can relate to that. And it for me at the time, it seemed like the reason I was doing it was to try and help that situation of the Twin Towers again. I say it time and time again, but not wanting to argue the rationale of that. I'm not convinced we have at all. But uh uh gone.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Just one other thing I'd like to say. Obviously, obviously, it is people like Richie and Ollie, and I've spoken to Ollie about this before that have inspired me as well. You know, I knew them when they were SCs, when they were SBS operators, and sort of seeing them do their business. I was like, yeah, I want to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

I'm happy to tap into that because so my like I said, my my reason was this is this is it, but this is it. But this is true, this is interesting because my reason was uh Bravo 2 0. I read the book. Now I didn't know those people in the book, but it sounded mega. I knew they were human, so if they've done it, my mindset is well, I could probably do it if I put myself to it enough. Um, but I didn't know anybody that was serving. Um but I was happy with that. Now it seems like people want more information, and to be fair, partially because of the TV show and yourselves putting yourselves out there, um, there is more ability to use role models and have access to the role models to inspire you to do what it is. Is that part of what you enjoy about what you do on yourself, Richie, with it with regards to your experiences? Is that sort of part and parcel of like the TV show?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

There's different reasons for the TV show. Um one of them is I was absolutely strapped for work. I wasn't getting any. I'd I'd I'd actually bitten the bullet and tried to go back into the security industry. I actually did my refresher course course, my CP refresher course with Ray. Um and I'd actually picked up some work because it was it was um it was f it was very freelanced with a small company, it was with people that we knew who they'd given me the job, and I was going to be going with a friend of mine, Sean. And then at the last minute that fell through, and then there was no work. You know, I'd written off six months for a really well-paid job, and then it just fell through at the last minute, as these things do, and I then I was propped basically, got the phone call for the TV show, and I don't know, I just saw it as something that we could do. Me and Ollie had already spoken about trying to set up something that helped people, whether it be corporate team building or just inspiring people and making and showing people that they can push themselves further than they actually think. And then this this thing came about, didn't it? And it was it was just a call, then was it? Yeah, there was it this the story's a bit longer than I actually picked up a bit of work looking after a uh a production crew out away in Madagascar doing a bit of safety for them, and then did a decent job on your treasure, yeah. Found some pilot treasure, and um but did a did a decent job, and just by chance, someone was talking to someone else about me getting involved. Uh they were looking at look find trying to find the XSF people, sorry, to to sort of head this show up, and they didn't know where they were going to find them. And it was like, Well, have you tried this bloke? I worked with them out in Madagascar, that's where the call came from, and then that's where I was like, Do we do you need more? There's this other bloke on it. So we all came in like that, and so it it's yeah, it was perfect timing, but on the flip side, I did see it, we did see it as a platform to sort of break barriers down, and I did use it to talk about mental health, and I I wanted to show people that it because I knew it did it did me an awful lot of good, you know, selfishly, but I also wanted to sort of show that it it can affect anyone because the thing that annoyed me a little bit about the branding of having PTSD was people going, how's he got it? He's he's a and I'm like, I am, and I was, but I'm still a human being. Do you know what I mean? So I there's a lot of different reasons otherwise, mate. Yeah, yeah, there are exactly, yeah. There's a lot of other um there's a lot of reasons, but they're they're probably the the main ones I'd say, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_03 18:36

You know, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean the show, you know, if if we sort of go forward now, I mean it's into its fifth series now, currently airing on TV now, and you know, I feel it's got to a stage now where we've got a duty, you know, it's given us a voice, you know, because of our media, you know, the uh a celebrity, I hate saying that word, but our celebrity sort of ex um status.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Quite enjoyed it, actually. Well, it does have its moments, actually.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

It does have its moments. But the thing is, I I do feel that we have got, you know, it's not about stroking our egos. I feel that, you know, I I saw the power of that show and I I I failed to understand the purpose of it on the first series um and and why we were doing it. We were doing it because we could create a bit of exposure for our business, like Foxy just said. But um, you know, the moment when Foxy did state on national TV about having PTSD, we saw such a major, massive ripple effect across the whole of the UK, not just from veterans, but from everyone, you know, a lot of people that had suffered with some kind of mental illness at um some point in their lives. It was it was amazing. And then it it showed you and it proved how powerful the show was. The show is not about military as far as we're concerned, it's about human psychology and it's about addressing issues that people face on a daily basis, every sex, every genre. So it's just such a powerful, powerful machine, these you know, and it it it's inspiring loads of people.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

It is the best thing about being a part of that show, is the fact that you can you get feedback that it people are gaining from it, how it helped, how it helped people. You get it in all sorts of in-person, social media, messages, you know, word of mouth. You you get there is an awful lot of feedback from it, and it's but it is probably it is the best feeling from that, is just knowing that you're helping people.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

I wanted to ask you before, Foxy. Um, I suppose leading on to that, but what what brought you out? You know, I say brought you out, but the PTSD, what was the sort of turnaround for you if there was a turnaround point?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

What for managing it?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

I don't no, I don't even need to manage it, there'sn't it's not there as far as I'm concerned. I think you can actually cure, you get you become you you know what you basically learn a little bit about yourself and how you need to then move forward with your life. But my turning point, really, if I'm honest, was before it started to get better, was when I'm stood on top of a cliff contemplating suicide, and I just was like, hang on a minute. I I things are going drastically wrong in my life as far as I was concerned. I either I either jump or I if I turn around from this cliff now, I need to I need to be honest with myself and address the situations or the things that are going on in my head properly, be honest with myself, and start looking for a positive route to the new stage of my journey. So that was the turning point. The next turning point was just going on that journey and eventually finding someone that would help me find my own route out of that.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

See, it's interesting you said that, and I don't know your your thoughts on, but it's it's like I sort of work with people around getting them to, you know, in this time of year, you know, yeah, there's resolutions and change and goals, and but people don't change, you know, or people yeah, habitual patterns of behaviour, everyone's into those, you know, that's that's what takes place. And often it's just that enough pain. And the thing that in in the work that you probably do, guys, as well, and that I do, it's trying to get people proactively to change rather than get to a point where there's so much pain that they they're literally at that you know, that metaphorical rock, you know, uh cliff face, they're either gonna turn around or or whatever. You know, so it's that it's getting people to actually sort of make change. And that's been that's been the saving for myself because you know, I think with all at times, you know, uh anxiety, you know, we're talking about doubt and th those kind of things, those negative mind states, you know, for me personally, one of the one of the I suppose kryptonites for me. Was taking the mental strength that allowed me to do selection and all those kind of things. I took the fight of that towards anxiety and and and fears and stuff rather than an acceptance of it was like fight them and and there was ultimately only one winner if you keep going at that.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

A common a common thread of people that I talk to from our neck of the woods is how they uh frame a challenge, sorry, frame a threat. Yeah, we we view it as a challenge, as an obstacle, and we go at it and go around it, as opposed to a lot of people. It seems to me this is all just anecdotal, but just sort of talk to people, they face a problem, it becomes it seems overwhelming and they they they avoid it and they just don't want to deal with it and they go put it in a box and then go away. And if you're and I think we were talking earlier at Jace about um your lowest point, and again, we were working together at the time, and I just remember you being we talked about this before, but I remember being at and just you were distant in the sense of you weren't coming into work, and I didn't really understand why, but work was so busy that we didn't have time to think about why you weren't coming to work, and then there was a time you went outside and didn't really understand the full picture. I think you were telling people problem with your hearing, and I was like, okay, didn't know he had a problem with his hearing uh that was significant enough anyway. But then um you came back and we we spoke about how it's written in the book and it was something that I struggled with reading or listening to it, and how you because we met in a corridor, I joked about your current occupation, you were working for Sedexo, you joked about my hairline, um, which hurt real bad. I'm pretty sure I'm talking about this again because I've not got over it still, still hanging on. Um but uh I've let it go, mate. Let it go. But uh liberation, yeah, freedom on the other side, mate. It's coming next week. It's coming. Um, I'm ready. But no, what what what was it that you you touched on it the other earlier, mate? But what was the reason you were so low? Like if you're honest with yourself now.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Okay, that's that's it right there. The reason I was so low is because I was actually lying to myself about where I was in my head. I was pretending there wasn't really a problem, I was pretending I wanted to be someone else in a job I didn't like, and because of all of those things, I was basically lying to myself, and that in line with the fact that I was probably going through that bout of depression because I'd lost the job that I did love. It just put me into a really, really dark place. So a lot of it in my mind it is about being honest with yourself and then also understanding that to sort yourself out you need to go and talk to someone. It's it's that's the biggest thing. It's just getting getting on you know, getting on a horse, getting on that horse and going on that journey and finding the right person that you need to talk to and taking that leap of faith.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Do you find it also I suppose as as guys and then as particularly XSF, even within our own heads, there's you've got to be strong, you've got to you can't show sort of sort of weakness, you you've got to be strong, and I think that's the perception and probably what we sort of bought into. But then, you know, my biggest thing in talking to people now about the the mental skills training side is really to sort of say that the courage is really to turn into emotions to be you know vulnerability and all those kind of things, and with that and people equate them as soft skills, but I think as we as we all know, they're not soft at all, they're the they're the things that are most challenging.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

I've had this discussion not long ago, and I they were like, ah, yeah, but you know, to to open up and that that's not to be a man. And I was like, What are you on about? I says, if you look at it nowadays, what's going on, to be a man in the old sense of the word isn't working because blokes are taking their lives left right in Chelsea. You can still be this rugged individual, you know. We're all sat around a table now, we've all done jobs that people would deem as being probably one of the most alpha male jobs in the world, and I'm still that person, I'm still that rugged bloke I like to think, and I go off and do stuff or challenge myself. You know, I I try to be hardy in what I do, but I still what I do do is I check in with my mates. It doesn't have to be like a big hug and cry and we kiss each other. I check in with you. We don't tilk all the time, but you know, when we do, we have a quick chat and I check in with you all the time. And I do the same with really good friends, Rob, you know, people that we know.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

That's trusted environment in it. When you were when you were working in the job, there were moments. I can remember moments we were deployed and things were happening, things have been a bit fruity, a bit tasty, whatever. And we had moments where we could let off some steam, we could vent off, and times there was people sharing emotions, etc. It was it was something that we weren't doing it consciously. We were doing it reactively rather than proactively, and I think now there's a bit of a bow wave of people recognising that there's more need for proactive stuff to get this off people's chest because it's stress ultimately, and you're wearing too much, you need a way of getting that getting it off. But uh I can relate to it. Um when you step outside the military, maybe there's not that sort of safe environment for you to do that and people don't understand necessarily, but it impacts not only your well-being but performance as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, you know, so you're trying to perform at those elite levels or any sort of level, and if you can't think clearly because you're so consumed in the inner critical, the negative what's going on. On about the suicide things, I sp I spoke to a guy at a university in Nottingham, and he said there's one to two deaths in the construction industry per day. I had to sort of like I don't know if you'd heard that, I had to like confirm it. And like you said, and that's why it's so great that like these guys are out there putting on the program and and talking about that sort of stuff because you know it is that you just can't let that let that wash.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Agreed, agreed, it's massive. I've done a bit of work consulting into the construction industry with a another company, and uh similar stat blew my mind that there was such a problem. And I think again, I could talk about why I think that is, I've got no idea. If I'm perfectly honest, I struggle, if I'm honest, to understand that mentality. I've I've had difficult times, but I don't think again, I've had to reflect on this and go, why why does it seem that I'm resilient? Have I had hardship? You know, for example, my mum passed away of cancer seven weeks last year just from diagnosis to death, and I dealt with it. Um it's tough, and life throws these challenges at you. But again, I've just said it myself. I almost frame stuff as a challenge. I was there in that scenario to try and support my dad, or I was there to help the family in another way. And I sort of set myself these little challenges to try and help myself with it because you know, and I found ways to sort of uh you know trusted people to sort of share your sort of feelings with, but I struggle with that, you know. So many people genuinely, I can't get my head around it. Even what your story, Jace, when you was at the cliff edge, I struggled to get my head around being so low. I've not experienced it if I'm if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

I didn't I would see looking back, I don't think I'd have ever seen myself being that low. I don't know what happened in that period of time. There was obviously a a system of events or a you know, sequence of events, sorry, that just fed into the next one and the next one and the next one, and I probably wasn't in the right headspace, and I probably wasn't hanging around with the right people. I didn't have the network at the time, partly through my own fault, because I'd taken myself away from the people that actually did matter to me, and I'd also ended up in a a circle of people that was just toxic and it and it needed to change. And I think, yes, I was there thinking dark thoughts and and and thinking oh I've not achieved anything and I'm now well I've achieved stuff but now I'm failing and my time in this world is looking sketchy. I think all it was was if I'm honest with myself, I probably never was gonna throw myself off. I just needed to have that moment. It I needed to push myself to a place where I was like, sort your shit out and do what you're talking about that you two are doing, which is motivating people to my motivator was myself just stood there going, you absolute bell end. Sort your shit out.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

That's reflection, that is reflection, innit? And it's almost at the extreme level. It's nice to hear you say that that you felt you probably weren't ever, but obviously some people take it one.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

But the thing is that you see that as it is. I see that as that had to die in you.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

It was that that was like my ayahuasca trip, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 30:43

Yeah, that had to die and you just never face the problem.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

No, and I'd and what would have happened probably is I'd have probably been miserable, depressed all the time, I'd have probably got ill once in a while. I might have, you know, because I do believe it's all linked, it all just feeds into itself, and and you just sort of you don't really you know, you give off what you give off, and if you're not giving off positive energy, then you're you're giving off negative energy. Yeah, yeah. It's people think I'm a bit of a hippie and a a a druid for thinking like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

But I I genuinely do believe in like even being honest there, isn't it? I think it's you know, being honest, and again, people think it's they still even now I think equate it with weakness, don't they? They still equate it with people not coping and and those kind of things, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

But um people people use the wrong language, I think. They talk about it as an illness. Mental health, it's an they they often think of it as a negative. It's like you have you have physical health, it's gonna be high, sometimes it's gonna be low. You fill yourself full of rubbish, your physical health is not gonna be as good. Well same with mental health. If you fill your head with rubbish, you are gonna feel low about yourself and just understand that when you're low, you're just low. It doesn't mean mental illness is very different, it's a completely different people, people confuse the two all the time.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah, it's it it's um it's being depressed or being low and and feeling upset or being anxious or being fearful, you're allowed to feel like that. It's a normal, otherwise, they wouldn't exist. If you if if if you end up feeling a certain way, you're allowed to feel like that. There's a reason for it. And I think a lot about I hate the word resilience, but people talk about how what is resilience, how do you become resilient? A lot of it is just being emotionally aware, and I think you'd you'll be a lot more you'll your mental health will be a lot better if you just allowed yourself to feel those emotions, acknowledge them, be honest with yourself, explore them, and then work out what you need to do to get out the other side. It's that's the difficult bit though, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Deeply into mindfulness kind of stuff, it's like to be able to turn into negative emotions and actually sort of and when you do, it's again quite sort of uh you know, that liberating experience of feel actually feeling the whole experience of what you're doing. But I also think you're right in terms of the the the uh the language that people use, and so if you talk about mental skills training, you know, I was saying I always say in the word there's three things you can train, you can train your craft as in whatever you're doing, and in in those sort of things, you can train your your body, yeah. Scene, yeah, they have seen, or or you can train your mind, and I think that third bit is that people don't actually recognise that you can train the mind. And and we and we talk about in the work they do um bringing back people back into the present moment because so often, so much of this uh internal dialogue is in the past, you know, ruminating on what we should have done, or you know, or in the future, future. So I completely agree. So, how how can you bring yourself back into the present more often? Yeah, it's really where you're reflective on your present situation.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

I mean, you look at Fox's situation, he was projecting himself forward. Yeah, best part of my life was behind me. Yeah, it's like it's never gonna be as good as that. And you in your and that there's no reason why that is the case. Like you think about you describing your situation, Ollie, about how you left, you were always something better, you were looking for something better, and then now you've only quite late on you've found this uh purpose. Do you know what I mean? And so, but you you couldn't work it out until then because and you were looking forward all the time, going, I don't see what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

But that's the problem with everyone challenge, isn't it? Yeah, the problem with everyone, the way we're wired, we're wired the other way. We're wired to take the short term the short-term comfort, but that leads to the long-term pay.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Yeah, and I think people it's such a hard thing to measure, isn't it? The only thing or the only the easy thing to measure is financial wealth, and so you go, right, okay, I'm gonna try and be rich because that is gonna make me happy. Yeah, and then the reality is there's so much evidence out there that that's not the case, and there's so many billionaires telling you, don't chase wealth, it's not gonna make you happy. Easy for you to say, easy for you to say, but then you've got people that have got next to nothing, they're like, I'm good to go.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

But we've seen them in we've seen them in the private security world. I was about to say that you untold wealth, literally untold wealth, and I've not seen one of them that's stable at all, yeah. You know, um, and topping volumes and and drinking, you know, except that was Ollie. You've got that the wrong way. So we've seen we've seen the wealth that just you know, um I I I put about the thing that vibrancy is the new wealth, is to feel to feel vibrant in your life because most people are just running at the edge of it all the time, yeah. You know, and absolutely just you know, whether it's stress, whether it's kids, and I suppose our generation, what you see is like people, you know, that they've got to do everything for the kids, they've got to do everything, you know, you know, particularly like I sort of from a bloke's perspective, a bit, you know, but they've got to be, you know, the best husband, the best dad, the best worker, bringing in the best job to get the best time, you know, and it's just like this constant conveyable of stuff, you know. And how are you gonna feel vibrant when you feel like that, you know?

SPEAKER_02 35:51

So I grew I I grew up playing with He-Man, talk about body, body issues, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, but no, I completely agree with the pressures on people to get to certain standards, and and we're not we're just giving these messages. I genuinely think social media is one of the worst things because of that.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I mean, I social media now is like He-Man, it's what He-Man was.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

You're exactly it's bang on, it's bang on. Uh, but people live it, don't they? They live it for hours and hours, and it's their only way of getting feedback. Like you spoke about feedback from the show, um, and how that gives positive feedback for you. People are looking for feedback from their social media, and it's that's all they've got now to sort of get them get their measure of success, and it's just I'll worry about it too much.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Yeah, but that going back to that sort of uh present moment thing, I'm thinking about us guys doing the job. It was easy, it was almost easier to lock in to you know, when you're on a task, a mission, training, whatever, is to be able to lock into the present moment because all of a sudden we you're with the team and and you're sort of passionate about it, and just that that obviously drives that that focus stubborn, yeah. We're all stubborn, stubbornness, focus, you know, it's all there, isn't it? But then again, in other areas of your life, it's it's difficult to do.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

So just on that, when you're in the moment of the super high stress occasions in your life, I'm sure you've got loads. Do you quite two questions kind of about around about the same one? Do you know what you did to cope with that stress? Are you aware with what you did, or did you just do it because your purpose was so clear? Just go on, Jessica.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

I think because we've spoken about this, I've talked about it with hundreds of other people, I've spoken it with about you. When when we're sat here now, our careers in the special forces is done, it's over, we can look back on it and reflect and have a you know have a laugh. And when you think about it now, when you look at some of the things we did, you're like, ah, how'll they do that? See what I mean? When you've like jump halo in through the night sky and you're like five blokes landing. When you land on a oil rigs, when you land on a when you land on a postage stamp, literally, as a team of guys, you're like ah, and then you're off and doing something else, or you've diving on you're diving at night. I think it comes down to not thinking about what could go wrong because it hasn't gone wrong yet, and there's no point worrying about it. It's about I think there is a lot to be said for SF guys, are very spiritual in the way that they just live in the moment and they're and they're confident as well, admittedly.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

So, how do you look how do you translate to then you being stood on the cliff, struggling to be the moment then? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 38:27

That's what I mean. That's what I mean. I had a blip, and it was that it was that bit moment of realization where I was suddenly like, hang on, I'm still that bloke. Because for me, I think I lost my sense of identity, I lost my sense of belonging, and I thought that it had gone with that with that organization. When actually I suddenly realised I'm still that bloke. I'm st I've still my I still belong to me. I am my identity.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

I just need to adopt the old mindset which I had when we was in the something called self-determination theory, which is why people do what they do and that belongingness. And when when and again, I think this is where people struggle the most with transitioning from the military personally, is where they've lost their without realizing it that the military was the purpose, even though they hate it, love-hate relationship with it. Um and then when they stepped away from it, they they didn't understand just how much support it was for them because actually, outside of that brotherhood, call it what you will, maybe you didn't have as many friends or real friends as you thought you did, and then actually these are the people that you relied on when times are hard or more difficult or just a change of scenery, you know. And I and yeah, it's uh it's strange. I think going back to the the stressful moments, you know. So you felt you just could get in the moment, and that do you know can you think yourself how you dealt with the stress? You know, so again, not wanting to name the operation, but yeah, you're in the trench and all hell's kicking off.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

And I think there was a lot, a lot of that was to do with just being being present, which meant you knew you're in a shit place, but some of it was taking str you know, you take strength from yourself when you when you need to give yourself that proverbial slap around your face when you're sort of having a bit of a moment when things are bad. For me, it was about like, hang on a minute, you are this person, you've done this, you've achieved this, you belong, you but you deserve to belong here. Yeah, a lot of it is taking strength from the people around you, probably more so that knowing that you're knowing that you're um accountable to them, yeah, and also they're accountable to you, and then and you're like, hang on a minute, I know these blokes, they're awesome. Yeah, yeah. They're they're good. We you know, everyone talks to me about how do you motivate a team, and I was like, I I was in the SF, I was lucky.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, I didn't really need to motivate them because there's there's they're just individuals who sort of it's like jumping off in the in the halo bit on the end of you know, people have said said, Oh, do you feel like you're not gonna you weren't gonna jump or you'd rather not let the people down around you? Yeah, yeah. To be honest, I'd rather just hoy myself out than let the people down around you.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

That that was self self-image, you know, and your self-image is that part of that organization, and you're so tied into the values, the ethos of that organization that you need to live up to that standard. It almost drags you up sometimes, in it, because you're the internal inner critic, like you mentioned, Richie, was it's going, you don't want to do this, this is mega dangerous. Um, or you drop over the side of a boat into ice cold water and there's an oil rig at KOA, and you're like, This is gonna be epic, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Uh just sorry, just a quick dit there. I remember we got to California, we're gonna go and do the halo jump, and we'd not done the j any jumps in in UK, and so the first jump was gonna be on the Monday morning, so we got straight to to their labs were like that, right? Get the bus, San Diego. So we went down to the for the weekend and it was like everyone like you know, it's just like holding on and all the rest of it. And um, so we're coming back on the bus on the Sunday night, and the next jump's next morning, and it's just like you know, it starts to everyone's had a load of drink as well, and um and it starts to get quieter in the bus. And all of a sudden, from the black thing is in the black is uh just out the you know out the quiet, all of a sudden I'm shitting myself. That was the reduction of everyone in the yourself, mate.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

How do you deal with the stress?

SPEAKER_03 42:23

I don't know. Again, me and Foxy had talked about that, and I I do believe, you know, um how how we manage, you know, in situations where it's everything's spiraling out of control, and you know, there's one particular um time again when I when I was in Iraq and it was the first time I'd been in any kind of scrap outside of the military. And um, you know, it for me when I look at it and when I look back, I realize it's down to your breathing has a lot to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Sorry, just on that one, I I think people misconstrue what the the present moment is, it sounds a stupid thing to say, but they think, oh yeah, I'm being present, but really the kind of thinking, you know, 10 seconds, even 30 seconds a minute in front. But when you're actually in the present moment at that point, you know, and that might be sort of like bullet swinging past your head or whatever it is, but right in that present moment is where I suppose the training kicks in. We've been so many times through it, yeah, conditioned in that moment, conditioned, conditioned.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Yeah, we there's a saying, isn't there? You don't rise to the occasion, you fall to the lowest level of training, and the therefore you have to take your training up to as high a level. Uh we were talking about it earlier, about being proactive with stress management as opposed to reactive, expecting yourself to be able to manage stuff when it comes your way. Well, it don't work like that, you've got to prepare yourself. And we were conditioned, stressed, our training was as tough, if not harder, than the actual reality. So we were ready and we were able, I think, to sort of control our physiology a little bit better because we'd been in that scenario, it wasn't so shocking. Uh completely gone.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Because we what you do in all that training when you're doing that. I mean, like I said, I I did I was in the Marines for 10 years before I went SF. So that in itself is a period of time where I'm conditioning myself to be in a stressful situation that when it does happen, just happens. Yeah, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Because the the breathing thing, your fight, flight response is kicking off. You're not going to control that. That that is happening whether you like it or not. The breathing is the only way, yes, along with eye movement as well, apparently, um, how you can then bring back your physiology. So it's taking control of your physiology, and it's you know, people don't recognise when they're in the fight flight response because they've never been there before, they're in shock. Maybe it's a car accident, something like that. They weren't they're not my breathing's super high now. They're just worrying about what's happened, what's going to happen next, what this means. When actually that's the moment we would and we do did do coach it into sort of our training at all levels, the breathing exercises, that you have to coach your breathing for those stresses. So you might be on the tail ramp and you'll right now's the time to think about your breathing because on the day of the race, you are going to be a little bit more nervous naturally if you've never done that thing before for life. So you have to then sort of have coach, right? Every time I'm here, I take control of my breathing, and then you just put yourself in an optimum state.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

That's not that's not something that you can. This is, I think, again, where miss people misconstrue. It's not something that you can just do yourself, pull out your ass at the end of time. You know, it's it's the same as anything, you know. And I was I was I think I was saying to you earlier talking about meditation and and something that I've been sort of practicing about 10 years now in meditation, you know, but it's the same as anything else. It you know, you either do it or you don't, you know, quite sort of you know, you you park your ass on the cushions and do your meditation, uh, or you don't. It's the same way you go to the gym or you don't, you know, so it's got to be trained, hasn't it? You know, so that in the time when you need it at that moment, but I totally agree in sort of parasympathetic nervous response and lowering ourselves so we can think more clearly and you know lose lose logical parts of the brain, all that stuff is getting shown in neuroscience now, and thankfully SF, you know, um, I mean Navy SEALs are banging it all over the place, aren't they? Box breathing, you know, for example, which is around the box, obviously, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Um but you know, but I think I think everyone everyone can, you know, it's it's we're talking about extreme circumstances. I mean, for for for the uh the everyday person, I mean, they can practice this kind of stuff. You know, when when it comes to them reacting, you know, it and it comes back to what you said before about you have to be aware of your emotions, we have to become an emotional observer, otherwise we become a victim of our emotions. Self-awareness, yeah. Yeah, and once you once you're able to do that, you're you're aware, like Road Race, for instance, you know that's coming in, you can then kick in your box breathing straight away. It takes you straight out of that. This is how I would react to you know, it's it's taking a pause in the heat of the moment.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Yeah, the bit that I I agree there, the emotional side, because going back to the ditch, my uh what actually happened there was I all of a sudden, as a as a senior bloke in a squadron, which I was, all of a sudden I wanted to be back at home with my mum, and I was like, what the hell? What's this? And all it was was I suddenly realised it's just fear, but it manifested itself in a way that I'd never seen before. But I'm like, well, hang on, it's just fear. Well, of course I'm allowed to be scared, fearful, but I just need to now use that emotion as as soon as you acknowledge it, like that right, because if you don't acknowledge it, you end up becoming a flapping headless chicken running off, not breathing properly.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Deny, denying it, denying it. Be scared.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

No, I'm not scared, or you say, I am scared, and you just focus on what you need to do to get the job done. It's like being on the tailgate. Have I done all my clips up? Have everything ready when you're scared, you just slow it down, right? Okay, yeah, okay. And it sort of dispels the negative side of the emotion.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Have you looked at the hook?

SPEAKER_00 47:44

It's still on, and it's still on, innit? Looking at both ends of the wire.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Mick Rafferty, the the PGI used to say to us, it's it's a numbers game, fellas. Thanks, Mick. Yeah, that's it. That's the coping mechanism.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Um, lads, I'm gonna have to start wrapping this up. Um that's been good. First half was the best, but we never captured. Yeah, it's make it just feel better. Let them learn their lesson learn.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

The numbers gain that.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Um, just as we go round the table, what's the next sort of six months bringing for you? So uh who wants to start?

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Me and Ollie's next six months are pretty identical, really. We're we're gonna spend a bit of time together doing more of that SAS. Bit of bit of stuff for another TV show SAS Who Des Win. So we're doing that pretty much. We're gonna be doing a one for another country. And then we're gonna be doing some more in the UK. It were well for the UK, but somewhere not yet to be decided, and that's that's pretty much up until July, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 48:57

Yeah, and then there's I mean, there's we just launched the app, so the Battle Ready 360 program, which is Mind, Body, and Nutrition. Uh so that's an ever developing um uh app that we're gonna be, you know, obviously there's gonna be some big developments with that. Uh we've got the Academy as well, which we just started, so that is um uh helping veterans um putting them back on the map after they leave.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Where can people find more information for that?

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Um if you go to our website, it's breake.co.uk or any social media channel you can find it, or just stick it in Google with the top of the rankings on there. But um, yeah, we can do our corporate training from that uh website and all sorts of yourself for a cheap, nice one.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Um I've just launched a website which is called Man on a Mission, which is my surname M-A-N-N on a mission. Um see what you did there. Uh yeah, you like that. I can't take credit for it, but yeah, so um I've launched Man on a Mission, which basically is um podcasts. Yeah, so I'll have to I want to do a round two with this so I can know where I am. Get you on, yeah, get you on, guys. And um uh so doing that um podcast, it's really around mental skills training program, which is looks at a psychological framework and building proactive mental skills, which again hopefully people are a bit more proactive about hearing mental skills training rather than mental health. Um, and so it's um calm, confidence, focus, trust, control, grit, these kind of things, and and building them and actually making change and so on. So I developed a program there. Um, and also working with Ollie here, you know, we're sort of connected again, Ollie and and Foxy at breakpoint here doing stuff doing stuff with them, which will be great.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Where we're kind of it's partly selfish for me. I love talking about these sorts of things and learning how at the time when we were serving, no one spoke about how we dealt with stress. We just either dealt with it or some people didn't and left. And then, but now it's like, well, clearly we were very good at what we were doing, and I think there's loads of there's a lot of theorists out there, there's a lot of professors that love to profess how you do this stuff. Our our group and our sort of uh peers have have all done it and actually use different things themselves, which sometimes it's good for people to talk about and to sort of uh actually unpack it themselves and go, you know what, this is you know, we were very good at this, and this is what I used to do to cope with that stress. So I I love talking about it, it's in insightful for me. Um, certainly talk to you guys. Good to see you. Uh I think we need a round two. Yeah, we do. This is round two. We've already had round four. We need a round three. We need round three and three and four. It could be a regular thing just to come back and it'd be good. All right, awesome lads. Cheers. Cheers, nice one. Thanks, guys. Take care.