The Duratus Mind - ThruDark part 1

ThruDark are a technical outdoor clothing company born from arduous environments and highly demanding circumstances.  The three Directors of the company were all forged from decades within UK Special Forces.  Nowhere in the clothing industry does their tagline of ‘Endeavour Through Adversity’ command such authenticity.  Operational experiences define their products function.

Along with the host Gaz, Anthony 'Staz' Stazicker, Louis Tinsley and Jay Morton talk all things mindset, purpose, resilience, success and military transition.  Jay also shares his experiences as a DS on the hit TV show SAS WDW.  This is a both lighthearted and unusual insight into the minds of one of the worlds most unique brands. 

Find all things ThruDark at www.ThruDark.com and all other social media platforms. 

Follow Gaz at Duratus UK (www.DuratusUK.com) 
instagram at Duratus_Gaz
Twitter at Duratus_UK
Facebook at Duratus UK

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Stand up.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

I'll crack the fun instant. I'll crack the fun instant.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

That's probably what I'll happen.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yeah, it'll just be stand up for the.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

I can in the stand up.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

I've had ten coffees. Yeah, you never.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Not enough coffee. Should we get another one?

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I ain't gonna lie, lads. I'm pretty excited for this one. So we've got Through Dark Towers today with uh the Through Dark lads, Louie Tinsley, Stas Stazica, and Jay Morton. Welcome. Thank you, man. You've got four now. Three others. Yeah, we're happy with that. We're happy with that. So kind of had a little chat beforehand. Um my take with all this is trying to understand why people do what they do, why some people use that to go off and do extreme or have success, um, and but then why others don't, and trying to help other people kind of understand and unpick that all. So I'm excited today because I know you know there's some stacks of experience in the room. This is part of why I do it on on a pod, because I get a chance to speak to my network, what you've all achieved, whether you think it or not, high levels of things. Um that I can relate to other people, people want to hear about it, and also for myself, I'm trying to understand it as well, and trying to help other people how they sort of can use this information to move forward. So I'm excited for that. Um I'm also excited to hear a little bit more about you because I know each one of you, but sometimes we're going to be talking about stuff that we don't necessarily always talk about, so um we'll just see where it goes. Um, we'll keep it loosey-goosey. Um reckon it's worth going around the room. Um obviously a little bit of a canter through your brief early life, I'd say, I don't want your life story, but your brief life story um and then into sort of how you uh yeah, up to the joining the military. Let's just go that far. Is that what happened with that?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yeah, I'll start. So um I grew up in the late district and uh I went to uh Kobe Stephen Grammar School there. And uh when I was about 18-19, I joined the military. I joined the military because my older brother was actually um he'd already joined up and uh he joined the Royal Marines commandos and uh followed suit. So I did that. Uh spent a few years in the Royal Marines and then joined Special Forces Support Group a few years there, and then went on to join Special Forces. Uh spent a total of 14 years in the military and then left to start Through Dot.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Director of Throughdock. Stazz, do you want to uh go next?

SPEAKER_04 3:21

The condensed Stas version.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

If we can, mate, if we can.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

For those of you who aren't aware, I do like a waffle.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Is this SAS goes last? Are we are people getting special treatment guys?

SPEAKER_04 3:31

I'm getting the kick under the table already. Hurry up.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Is that what it is? Is that is that complex there, James? I feel uh, you know, a bit outnumbered here. Stash pulse her. Jay, do you want to go or number no minute, no? I'm good. Stan. Number four. Number four Stan's can we say your first name?

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Right, I'm pretty similar to Louis, really, in terms of time spent in the military. Uh, I think again, the only thing that's slightly different from my background to Louis is uh mine was harder. No. I've I've no immediate family um kind of in the military or that were in the military or were kind of feeding me into that military route. Same mate. Uh yeah, so I think um kind of born, uh grew up around um in Wigan. Um still family kind of up and around that area. Uh moved down to Nottingham around about kind of nine, ten years old. Uh spent about around roughly about another 10, 11 years around Nottingham area, uh Mansfield. And then uh from there kind of made my way slowly but surely um down south through joining the military. Joined the military about 21 years old. Uh spent the first three years in the Royal Marines, uh, then put myself on selection, and then uh my last kind of 10 to 11 years were spent down here, down in uh in Sunny Pool, uh in the SBS.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Lovely outside. No nice one, mate. Thanks. Number four, go for it, mate.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Number four. Um I'll just say we've probably all got very similar lives, haven't we? And um the most diverse of rooms, is it?

SPEAKER_03 4:56

It's not very diverse. It's weird, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 4:58

We all kind of spent similar time in the military, all kind of had similar backgrounds, mine being Parage SAS, but similar to Marines, SPS. We're all similar age, we're all northerners. Um we've all got facial hair. And uh yeah, I guess so. For me, from Preston originally, um grew up there up until pretty much when I joined the army. Um did school, all that kind of stuff, had a pretty normal upbringing. Um didn't really like school as I'm sure most of us sat here didn't really like school. Uh enjoyed the sport aspect of it, but um you know didn't really enjoy the sat in classrooms and the writing and coursework and all that. Enjoyed kind of just being outside, drinking cider on parks. Um what was your what was your tip all? There's white lightning. White lightning on it. Yeah, white lightning on Morgan Smart. It's pocket. Yeah, what was yours? 2020. Hooch. Oh MD20, mad dog. Mad Dog. Mad Dogs was partial. Uh yeah, all that kind of stuff. And then enjoyed sport, played rugby, um, and then when I left school, decided to go and study uh sport at a college. Again, enjoyed the sport aspect of it, but didn't really enjoy the coursework and the work aspect of it, or say work as in the classroom-based stuff. I had a friend that was in the paras at the time. And I had actually what's her name? Uh Teresa. Teresa Reg. Told you I was outnumbered. Oh gunned as well. No, um, he was in he was in three power at the time and used to come back on leave, used to spin dates. And at the time, funny old thing, I wanted to join the Marines. Tell us why you couldn't, Jay. Because when I went in, I went into a career's office, and uh the guy behind the careers office, big, muscular, homosexual man with tattoos, uh fancy me. What was her name? Fancied me. Yeah, he at the time he he turned around to me and he's like, looked at me, puny little kid, way too much white lighting in my veins. And uh thinking of it. Yeah, he he he said, How many how many pull-ups can you do, son? And uh classic. At the time I could probably do about one thousand, no, one. Um and at the time I probably couldn't do any. And he said, Look, you need to do 15 pull-ups to get in into the marine. That's important. And that's put me off.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

It's all about resilience and mind what to date beats on where it's darked, which is the lesson.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

That's gold right there. So I want to join the paras. True story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that that's it.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

If I'd have known that, I'd have joined the Paris as well.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny because I again I remember walking into a careers office and I was volunteering because I I'd been to school, I thought I've got an education. I saw her on a checklist, A levels is enough for officers, so I volunteered for officer. They said to me, You're 18 years old, go away, get some life experience. So I about turned and went straight back in and applied as an OR for whatever reason. It was kind of what I wanted to do then. Um but and it hinted a little bit there, Jay, in the sort of sport you've enjoyed sport. Again, I think back about my background. I I used to love sport, was never any good at any one sport. I was okay at pretty much every sport. I know Stas has got a bit of sporting uh background, which we'll come on to before we join the military. And yourself, Lou, did you play sport?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, I did quite well actually. I think uh you do say so yourself.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

It's not all about you, Louie. Go on. Can we just add Louie looks like Bo Selector today? I'll take it.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Um yeah, at school too. I got I actually got the picture on the door, but I think everybody felt sorry for me, so they just yeah, they gave me the award for best boy. Um I'll take it. Best boy. Yeah, all around good egg. Uh so yeah, I was alright, you know, pretty much all sports. I was never never excelled at one in particular, but I I dipped my toe in and I was alright.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

No, so I I think this is a common thread with most people in our background at least. That willingness to take on a challenge and enjoy challenges more than anything. That that's the key thing, I think. Jay, what was your sort of which sports did you used to uh rugby?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Rugby. Yeah, yeah. I had a paper on as well, which is kind of a sport.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yeah, that is a proving ground in resilience right there. And a mill ground. No, what no good for pull-ups, but it is a proving ground. Yeah. Uh it stands what you're saying. Mindset resilience. Tell us a bit about you, mate.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

You had a bit of yeah, I kind of skipped through the beginning bit, you know. Uh I had the daggers from you guys looking at me just condensed version, but clearly there's a bit more to it than that. Um I think for the my life's kind of broken down into three three, I'd say three kind of stages. The first stage I mentioned, kind of being born up in Wigan's good stage. Um, you know, uh that that kind of element for me, um, you know, North Wigan, rugby, uh kind of a big imp in uh input there. And an uncle who used to play quite high level uh for Wigan Warriors, obviously a professional up there. Um kind of pushed through that route at school, you know, athletics, outside, you know, just getting stuck into that stuff, which I enjoyed, loved. Again, probably similar to you, Jay. I think just kind of finding your niche as an individual and just numbers and words and all this stuff. It just kind of wasn't really resonating with me uh from a from a you know um a school perspective. So I kind of uh again, like you said, guys, just similar to everybody else here, just kind of put getting pulled and and and finding a passion more towards the kind of sports and the outdoors, really. Um so that was kind of the first bit was rugby and you're still trying to find your feet as a kid, and then the second sort of element was moving to to Nottingham. Uh around about nine, ten years old. Um, my parents split. Uh it's probably I'd say growing up as a kid, you're quite sheltered, you don't really understand what's going on. But I think it's probably my first kind of slap in the face was a okay, what's going on here? What's happening? Um that that move happened that you know that move happened. I think probably nine, ten years old. So me and my my older brother, uh, he's a few years older than me. We'd kind of upsticks, you know, we were kind of comfortable, happy, happy kids really had a good good upbringing that was happy. Uh, and then kind of being moved uprooted to to Nottingham, oh Mansfield in particular. So mother kind of remarried, uh, we've got a stepdad on the scene now, who's uh you know, probably difficult. I'm trying to try and understand the man, as Louis would say, and try and understand things from other people's perspectives sometimes. Maybe it was difficult for him and and other people, but as his kids as well, and kind of pushing back and rejecting the whole kind of um, you know, that that environment, if you will. Um, I think you know, we're probably a year into this move, and you know, still seeing my dad up and down. I remember a lot of weekends, probably every other weekend, you know, my dad coming down, driving up and down, a lot of time spent in the car, back up to Wigan. You know, my dad had found another partner as well. Uh and that was kind of life. We'd kind of get into this flow. And I think as kids, you you you do tend to just very quickly adapt. Yes. And and kind of you don't really overthink too much at that age, I'd say. Um, so this was happening for for uh for a while, and then I'd say my big my you know, my probably my life's biggest slap in the face happened about a year kind of into this um situation, and uh and my my mum suddenly passed away. Uh I was around about 11 years old. Uh it was it was totally unexpected, it was a brain hemorrhage, so it was kind of one moment, you know, there. I'd say the fortunate thing about that that kind of situation was at the time me and my brother were up in Wigan um with you know with my dad visiting my dad. I just remember kind of being sat down and it's kind of vivid memories, really. But you know, being sat down and told that you know something's happened, you know, that mum, you know, mother's not very well. We're going back down to Nottingham, and then that was kind of it. It was kind of really weird. It was a um a stage that just kind of happened really quickly and didn't have much time to process as a kid, I think. I remember spending a few days in in hospital in bits and pieces, going through that kind of stage and kind of not really understanding what's going on. Uh and then, yeah, I mean, she was kind of on life support, and then a few days in the decision was made that you know, um to turn life support off. Yeah, so I think that coupled with moving as well, you know, being disjointed and and and geographically moving. Then we're in next thing I know, I'm kind of flashed to bang. I'm in a house with a man I don't really know and don't understand. You know, a stepfather with my older brother, we're in a new environment in terms of school. We're picking up and it is, yeah. And at this time, it was kind of uh um, you know, school's it's a tough place at time, isn't it? As a kid, you know, and you're dealing with all your other stuff and all your own in insecurities and anxieties, that coupled with this going on as well, and and kind of moving through that transition. Um, you know, it was uh probably on reflection now, looking back, quite a difficult time really. Um but I've kind of I think put a bit of fire in my belly, I think, a bit of spark.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

So you said you didn't think about it at the time. Did anyone else face anything similar like a losing a parent or the parent splitting up or anything like that? I personally didn't not until later on in life. Uh my family was you know pretty solid. I felt gave me a good sort of grounding, but you can hear something like that and say, well, you use that as a something that shaped you in the sense of it you can look back now, I'm sure, and go, actually.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

I think so, yeah, in a different way, yeah. I think I I I got I kind of on reflection now that's a beautiful looking, looking at things, you know, objectively now from you know from the outside looking in, it was probably a big deciding factor for me, but it it made me quite resentful, quite angry, but but it I felt like it gave me uh you know a purpose, a fire, something to kind of you know um kind of prove and and and kind of do somebody proud, you know, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

I think generally what I've seen again only ten sort of chats like this in, but people the way people frame big issues like that, they go, It's either a reason why it's an excuse why they are the way they are, and it's a good get-out clause to not really do anything, or people go, whether it's they've not had something like that and it's been good running, and this is why I'm successful, because I've had great fundamentals, or they've had something catastrophic happen and they go, That's helped me, and it's how they framed it in the sense of it's a challenge rather than a threat, and they've just gone, absolutely useless.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

I think we spoke about that before, you know, and it and it's it's there's probably two ways of of approaching that, isn't there? But I think that what's difficult at that age, I think, is you still understand you know, it's weird, isn't it, when you grow up as a kid. I don't know what your thoughts are, but you kind of you know, you think you know everything, don't you? And it's that it's that youth, you know, uh I don't know the exact saying, but it, you know, it's people that you go through, you think you know everything, and and uh and you're the man, you know, you're the star of your own show, and uh and it's not until you start getting older, you start getting more experienced and start understanding the world, you know, in more detail that you actually understand how vulnerable you actually are on this planet and and and your own sort of sort of status in in the world and stuff. So as a kid, I think you're uh you know you you're kind of sheltered in that respect and you do believe your own hype and kind of play football to quite a high level before I joined the military. Yeah, absolutely. So um from moving to Nottingham, obviously transitioned from rugby um you know uh to football. I remember starting football about 13 years old, so quite late to the like late to the scene, really. Uh but obviously had a sporting background and stuff, but yeah, I think for me personally, uh I remember my friend uh taking me down to local um football club in Clipston, and uh they were like, hey, listen, you know, let's start playing that you know football. Uh by the way, you're in the net, you're in the goal, we need a goalkeeper. Classic. Um I remember just having you down as a goalie mate. I'm an old mate, so the fan or four foot three of me. Yeah, um, yeah. Stunted my growth. Um so I think from there, shit, I was uh I was terrible the first few games. I was didn't I didn't understand the rule, I didn't know the rules as well. So I was kind of running around. It was the time before keepers could move with the ball, so you only had so many steps, or was it six seconds? Exactly. I was fucking I was just cutting about and doing my own thing, and I was like, what's this idiot doing? And uh, you know, so I think after that it kind of transitioned. Still don't know the rules, you know. Um so after that, obviously uh got into the game, started then playing outfield, um, and then transitioned really quickly, picked it up quite quickly, started playing for you know the school, uh playing at high level, picked up uh Nottinghamshire County. I was kind of um always quite a leader in that respect as well, always maybe just gobby, I don't know, but always kind of up for it and and kind of uh leading from the front and and kind of found my niche and and and and and and my calling really and uh something I was passionate about that I could get involved with. And I think from there kind of uh carried on um at professional clubs, Mansfield Town, bits and pieces. Uh around about the time everything went, uh they went liquidate into liquidation. Uh no contracts were being handed out. I was kind of a free agent at that point at around about 15 16 when they were handing out kind of YTS um scholarship schemes and things out at school. Uh, and then from there I was playing at uh uh Nottinghamshire uh county again, got picked up by you know a couple of clubs in Leicester and Fulham and all these kind of clubs, but nothing kind of cemented. Um obviously playing at a high level, uh, then transitioned to um um Nottinghamshire um college uh again, I think it's similar to you, Jack. W you uh sports science kind of yeah b tech b tech sports science. I went in the first time and I was like, I wanted to be I want to be an engineer, sort of random. Uh because I did some work experience, I wanted to always wanted to be a mechanic when I was a kid for some reason. I don't know why. Uh I did the work experience in this real shit place in Woodhouse. And I remember the bloke looking at me like, what are you doing here, kid? Like, you know what I mean? There's so much to do out there, and I was like I want to be a mechanic fixed guys. He was like, Don't be an idiot.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Like there's more to mate, Tonka growing up, that's what that is. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

Absolutely talk me out of it. But I went I went to college thinking, I want to be an engineer, I'll do an engineering degree. Speaking to my granddad and stuffy, you know. Um sorry, my grandparents kind of raised me um you know from kind of the age of 11 up. Uh my granddad's kind of look at it, you know, get out um something you can you can utilise in terms of skill set. I turned up to uh college and then uh realised I was actually uh pretty stupid really in terms of GCSEs and all that good stuff. I mean I was alright, I had an A, a B, some C's and D's and maybe a couple of E's and Fs. I don't know. Yeah, A S. Um Sport. Yeah, P E' PE D called P E back in the day, yeah, it tells us.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Highest grade.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

She just couldn't do any pull-ups. Was that part of GCSE? But I think, yeah, so the the college element uh I sort of transitioned into there.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Um in my mind you play for Fulham, that's what I was asking.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah, and and the British British colleges, so represented like uh British colleges, England school boys as well, uh played it obviously English, probably the highest level. You can play with the schools and Nottinghamshire counties and all that sort of stuff, and then um uh for various reasons and waffle reasons, really, injuries and bits and pieces at a young age, kind of um kind of was getting distracted, uh got injured, uh had a knee operation, came back, uh, kind of waffled it to full. I was at Fulham at the time, everything was going great, you know, the training, everything was kind of moving in the right direction for me, slotted into the team perfectly as a right back. You know, I wasn't kind of step treading on anybody's football boots, anybody's toes at the time. So uh it was all looking kind of rosy. Uh and then I uh yeah, I did myself a mischief on the knee. Um motorcycle accident or something like that chicken chaser in your uh you know, uh playing around with the lads at the motor cross. Uh as you do, yeah. Uh granddad's famous last words, don't injure yourself. Yeah. And then um yeah, from there, uh kind of um went back, rehabbed, kind of waffled, said like I was playing football with my friends on on leave, you know. Leave, do you call it leave? Uh and then kind of went back. Institutionalized. I know. First game back, I remember uh that my knee went again, it kind of uh locked, dislocated kind of thing, and I just remember hitting the ground. And I think I was more disappointed at the time though, for my granddad, bless him. He he'd put me through all this stuff, he'd never missed a game, drove me the length and breadth of the UK, you know, and funded essentially all that stuff, and you know, and and was my biggest supporter. And I I was obviously gutted myself because I knew that was it, but I remember looking at his face, he let my granddad down here as well, which is quite kind of a big deal for me. Uh, I think from there it was just back into college, kind of still playing, playing at college, but not never at that level again. And then uh I kind of moved out of uh passed through the sort of college process, and then um I was into sort of working within a gym, uh a local gym.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

So seeing opportunity, and then it kind of got dashed basically.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Yeah, and I'd kind of put all my eggs in those baskets as well.

unknown 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Um so going around the table then, if we ask sort of what was it about joining the military, let's say, for starters, what was the drive, what was the motivation? You think you probably never thought about it before, I know I hadn't until I had to, but what do you think was the reason why you joined the military at the time when your brother was serving?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, so I alluded to it earlier, so yeah, my elder brother Frankie, so he's he's three years older. Um so yeah, he got Frankie Tenzo. Frankie Tinzo, yeah. Um so he was always good at sports and uh I don't know why we got hooked. I think he did actually he applied to go officer for uh uh originally. I don't think he kind of passed the um the briefing course or whatever it is for that you do for officers. And uh he ended up going as a a normal rate anyway. And uh yeah, yeah, I think that was it.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

So he just spurred me on so I'd probably think I didn't need much, and there's a lot of people that don't need much to sort of you end up spending, I mean how many years did you spend in the military after that?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Fourteen years.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Fourteen years, and so you don't need much sometimes to sort of get that initial sort of step, and then you kind of fall into it. Same with me. I was like never expecting to be successful, but I never expect to do over twenty years later, but you you got that's enough for me and just go give it a go. And I think again, there's a common thread with the mindset of people like ourselves where you'll take a chance and and you Not afraid of failing. I think that's the key. If you go, you give it a try, you'll see where it goes, and then you'll come back and you learn from it. And I think that's a common a common threat.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

See, that's weird because that I think that's probably one of my biggest fears is the fear of failure. Yeah. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

It drives it must drive you forward as well. I think it's probably that. Yeah, it's probably that. We'll come up. We'll definitely come on to that yourself, Jay. Why did you join obviously you couldn't join the Marines, which was your primary desire.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Um probably go back to kind of just before I joined, and I worked in a double glazing factory at the time. I think from an early age.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Sorry to interrupt, that there's lots of people out there that sort of do probably more menial jobs. That sort of job for me, I reckon, is more tough than like I've worked at McDonald's. That job was the toughest job I've ever had. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that sort of job, you know, where the pressure's on and just day-to-day grind. So people think that life's tough in certain roles, but that that sort of job must have been tough, yeah?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Tough for me, probably not tough for other people. Yeah, going back to that, I think it was kind of from an early age I'd I looked at kind of my parents, you know, they grafted their asses off, nine to five job, provided us with a good life, and I kind of looked at that and I looked at the kind of classic nine to five model, and from an early age I just thought, like, like what's that all about kind of thing. It's like you you spend you know 80% of your life in work in a job that you don't enjoy. And I started this job at this double glazing factory, didn't motivate me, didn't drive me. Like again, it was like school, it was something that I didn't enjoy. I guess it's going back to that thing about if if I don't enjoy something and I won't be mo motivated in doing it. Um kind of I learned probably a lot of lessons at working at that double glazing factory. Um and then kind of the military thing always appealed to me because it's not that nine to five. That's probably one of the biggest things. Yeah. And then it's you know, it's about being a part of a team and part of people, like-minded people, and everyone's joining for a certain reason. And it was more for me about escaping Preston and escaping that night five that I'd done for two to three years, not very well, unmotivated, and joining something that's bigger and and you know that's gonna drive me and motivate me, and something that I think I'll enjoy and excel in. Yeah, man, give you a little bit more of a purpose.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

I mean that's what people talk about purpose all the time. Um, did you have any sort of particular driver stas why you thought you would join the military? Obviously, you've had success in sport to some degree, but yeah, I think um pretty similar to Jay, really.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Um the only difference being I quite enjoyed the job that you know from leaving college. Um I was a personal trainer working within a gym, a council-run gym, local to me, literally same village, same people, uh transition as well, just uh lifeguard, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, as you do kind of you know, just uh getting beer tokens really for the weekend for when I was in college. Um, but yeah, I think I I kind of enjoyed that uh the teaching element and and I was something that I was interested in and was keeping fit. Uh I think probably from the sport background. Um I think in terms of there's nobody pushing me again, like I said, into the military. Um I think it was just something that I was interested in personally. Used to you're gonna slate me for this, guys, but I used to read loads of the Andy McNabb books, you know, as a kid. I used to love it, used to really get it into all that stuff. Um, so I had kind of that seed was there, and that kind of you know um something that I was that was mysterious that.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

That's funny, mate, because you you obviously don't listen to my podcast, which is fine because uh I talk about this all the time. The the book when I was about 14, whatever it was, Red and Red Bravo 20. That's soda seed for me. I talk about this in a lot of sports, it's about having that role model. I didn't know the bloke from Adam.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

That's quite similar to me then, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

I I used him as a bit of a more I would love to do that. That is what I would love to do. I didn't think I was ever going to be good enough, but I would love to do that. And the con like and again, the the sort of the lads that are pushing out the books now, you know, and and I know they get with from within our old organisations get a lot of criticism. And I know I'm sure Andy McNabb got whatever his real name is, got a lot of criticism at the time for doing what he did. But I also know it it's a lot of people I know Fox is exactly the same, that that was something he read, and I'd love to do that, and that definitely sowed a seed for me.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Wait a minute, you sure it's not his actual name? Wait a minute. What's the Christian?

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Well, that's meant it's good to hear. Jason Fox isn't really called Jason Fox as well, don't you? This is what I'm saying. Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Cover blown. That's interesting though, isn't hear that? I mean, uh I thought I was some sort of closet uh.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

No, can't read it.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

I I weirdly remember my brother used to like read a lot of books, and I I remember meeting him at the library, and he had a book on the SAS, and I had absolutely like you know, I was probably like 13 years old, I'd absolutely no idea about it, didn't know what it was, and it it literally was called SAS. And there was a picture of a guy in black rig, a geezer, the old uh geezer, and the the old um is it S10, S10 respirator? Is it S10 with the old eyes? Old S10 respirator on coveralls and like the MP5. I remember saying to my brother, I was like, what's that all about? Thinking, oh it's this secret, uh secret like army organization, super army soldiers. It's weird, it just always kind of sticks out in my head. I was just like, Oh, it's kind of pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

I know I was uh I might have said this the other day, but I uh I remember it was in a in a newspaper that was this picture of a load of guys on the back of a ship, you know, the back door of a ship that was like all in black rig, and the the ship was underway. And I thought in this in this newspaper clip, I thought that looks amazing. It proper got me stirring down below, and I was like, that's the sort of thing that I was I'd like to do. Now I know we know it doesn't always be heroes, it doesn't always meet your expectations, let's just say that. But um it sometimes that sort of thing. So again, I I'm not gonna sit and criticize anyone for writing a book, and I know that they're powerful for other people and they can motivate people to do, and that's what I'm kind of getting at. You sometimes just need a little nudge, and everyone always looks for this sort of hack to why you've been successful in whatever it is you do, but sometimes it's not like that, you're just enjoying what you're doing, and it just takes you somewhere, right?

SPEAKER_04 28:54

I agree, and I think m most of it in life, anyway, is just is just taking that step. Um, and you know, going through that sort of transition, there's always going to be wrong steps, you can always back up and have another go. But I think something for me personally, I've never been worried about kind of you know flying the nest, moving away, you know. I I'd kind of traveled the country, done done bits and pieces anyway, with you know, with sport and stuff. So, and I'd kind of always wanted to, I don't know what it was. There's more, there's more, there's more. I had it like a year, a year or two in this in this gym, and I was kind of happy, but I was like, this can't be it. This can't be it.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Is that why you th you all kind of volunteered for special forces? So Louis, is that like when you were in the Marines and it what what was the oh I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what was the reason why you wanted to join SF?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Um I'm gonna come to that um one of the special forces ethos, really, but it's relentless pursuit for excellence, and I think um all of us have that. And it any of the anybody who's been through that uh special forces selection process has that in them from the very start. You always want to be a better version of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

I think you're right, and what I want to understand is why you think that is. So what what gave you that what gave you that? Do you think that gave you that desire? Because I again I just I joined special forces, not thinking that I was on this uh unrelenting quest for excellence, but I agree with you it must have been because I wasn't happy doing something mediocre, but what I don't understand is why I developed that and needed that. Do you know what I mean? That's what I'm trying to unpick. Give me your thoughts, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I I think that this could be a little bit of ego, which is which is bad. Um, but I think uh ego is real, bro. And I I don't know, I think you you you you've got these uh external people that you look up to, but why why do you look up to them? Um and I think a lot of ego is attached to that, but yeah, I think it's just still it's just trying to be that better person.

SPEAKER_04 30:46

I'd agree with that as well. It's a healthy ego, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, it is like it is a bit of ego, it's like, well, what do you want to do? It's like if I didn't have that ego telling me what I what I wanted to do, I'd have like not gone in the army or I would have carried on working at the factory. It's like it drove me into going into the paras and not a different regiment like the Marines, or like it drove me to to go on SF selection and it drove me to do well like outside of the SAS.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

I think my thing as well, linking back into that, is is like the um the integrity side of it as well. For me, I always kind of envisioned that somebody was kind of overwatching me, uh, you know, and that I was I think that that is pretty much what you know like you think your mum. Not necessarily, but probably two elements of that, yeah, definitely. But I think you know, um I'd always you know having people to look up to or something to aspire to, and I think this will link back into a lot of common themes and and threads here is and you've already mentioned it, Gats, but I think purpose, if you've got a purpose and something to strive towards, there's no there's no better feeling in in the world. And and we know how much you know SF selection consumes your brain. It it's everything, you know. When you're on selection, you're going through that process, there's nothing else that matters, you know, because it's again, mate.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

That's your head, and that you've had success in it. I know plenty of people that have been unsuccessful didn't think like that. I know people that have had been unsuccessful and did think like that, but again, you you we're all biased because we know what gave us success. What success? This is this is obviously what everyone does, and it's not you know, people have got different balances. We were all we spent the first things we walked when I walked in today, we're just having a bit of a bit of a chat, and we're like, we're freaks, aren't we? We are we're weirds, because we're weird, we're weird, but I'm trying to unpick that weirdness. This is what this this is what this is all about, really. Because you're you're now you all have got success in what you're doing, uh, and there's something that's just motivating you to keep going, to get up in the day, to me, it's that fire in your belly, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 32:39

It's just being stubborn as well, and it's having that fire. That fire. Well, I think for everybody else it's different, you know. For Louis, it was that thing of you know, for me it was a fear of failure as well. Like there's absolutely no point along that selection process that I was gonna pick up a phone, you know, and ring the people that I loved and go, hey, listen, I've pulled myself off it because I'm a bit tired or because I've twisted my strategy for that. No, and I've got no time. I've never had that. I don't think I've ever had that in me. I've never had a quit in me like you know. Um so it would have had to I would have had to been physically dragged off selection and you know, through injury.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Um I think it's that as well, like knowing what you'd go back to if you were unsuccessful. Yeah, yeah. Same when joining the army, it's like it's like I had that fear of going back to what I used to do, that factory worker job. I had that fear chasing me all the way down through P Company, and that's that's you know, knowing where I was going and then also knowing what was to come if I'd if I'd have come off.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

I agree with you, mate. And so again, I remember in marine training the fear of because I hurt my ankle real early on, and the fear of getting back trooped was like that's never gonna happen. It's never gonna happen. And I was lucky enough to survive that and to get on through, but it was again it was the fear of telling people that I'd left that I thought in my mind that that were thinking that I wouldn't be successful, that was like, I'm gonna prove you wrong, and just fast forward sort of 20 odd years for yourselves now, like in business now, a completely different environment. But but what's the thing that's driving you forward to make ThroughDark successful? What is it that you're looking for? Who's your role models? Who's your same principles?

SPEAKER_02 34:14

You think it's probably the exact same thing why you went on SF selection? Absolutely, definitely, and it's probably the the exact same reason why I got out of that factory worker job and joined the army. It's all the same. It's the leave.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Why did you leave when you left?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

It's in the SF. Yeah. Um quite a quite a few reasons. I think um you know, I was quite young at the time. I went on, I was lucky to go on uh a mountain guides course whilst I was in Hereford. That probably changed my view on on life and like what was out there. You know, you'd be sat at the top of a mountain, sat on a ridgeline after just doing you know, the endorphins were running, you just ski tore up. You had like the perfect line to go and ski down, and kind of sat there and soaking all that in, you know, before I went on that course. I was all you know, SF driven, you know, I wanted to progress in my career, I wanted to pick up TL, sergeant major, all that jazz. Like I was dedicated to that craft, and then seeing like what else was out there in terms of adventure, in terms of mountains. You know, I was still quite young, I was 32 when I was on the course, I was 34 when I left. I understood that I still had a lot of time ahead of me. Um so that was a big driver, and then you know, there were there were other things, it was like the timing was correct, you know, in terms of age, in terms of meeting Louis and Stas and discussing Through Dark. Um also I felt like you know, when I joined, and I think you know, Stas and Louis will probably agree. It was like, you know, we joined when Afghanistan kicked off, and we were, or I feel that I was very fortunate and unfortunate in certain terms, but very fortunate in the in the in the the operations and the jobs that that I got early on in my career. Ticked a lot of boxes, ticked a lot of boxes, exactly that, and I did a lot of stuff that I wanted to do and Bravo 2-0 stuff you'd surpassed what you'd read. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yeah, but I felt like I'd done everything and I felt like the rest of it now was just was work and it was monotonous. And I enjoyed, you know, the first two years of or I really enjoyed the first two years of being in SF because it was you know, you know, minimal responsibility, it was running around, shooting things, it was all the stuff that you'd ever that you'd ever wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

And then the longer that you're in, it it does start to feel more like a doesn't matter what you job, you've got to keep on that progressive growth line upwards. You can't, if you ever feel like you're going stagnant, you you feel like you're going down. And so it doesn't matter what you do. It's interesting. I mean, people could I'd imagine think, well, how could you ever get bored of a life in the SAS?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Because Yeah, and again, it's not boredom though. I think it was like it's exactly what you just said, Gaz. It was like I didn't feel as challenged or as motivated in in the later years, and it it was all those aspects of you know being having the you know, having all the jobs that I got that I got, all the operations, it was, you know, spending that time in the mountains, it was understanding what age I was and what I was capable of if I did get out. And it was all that kind of stuff that was just milling around in my head, and I was just like and then it was the curiosity of all right, well, what else can I do that will challenge me and test me just as much?

SPEAKER_03 37:17

So I I've I've got this, I've got this theory that I'm piecing together. So, you know, people there's there's significance that you're looking for when you're coming into this world, and you kind of you get significance ego, like you mentioned that we, you know, that's definitely a driver, you know, we're in a unit called special for starters, you know. I mean you can't help but have that we talk about humility in the unit quite a lot, uh and it's vital because it's all about team rather than person, but there's equally there's ego that's driving you, so you're after that some significance to be, and there's privileges that you get being in those units when you compare yourself to other regiments, so speak about all of our uh kind of uh parent regiments, if you like, uh you know, they you know that is significant to a point, but then you want more, right? And and then when you sort of become a little bit uh stagnant rather than kind of bored, um you still need that um variety. So variety is still massively important. And if you fail to get variety, you were telling that story then, Jay. I'd laughed myself because I nearly sent it to you the other day, Stas. Um got a few video clips of uh our time together, mate, and there's this one time. I won't name names, but you're in a minibus with uh one of the lads, and you're just bored, mate. You're you're waiting in a line to do go do this remount exercise, and you're s you're singing these songs into this light dashboard, mate. And the things that we were doing are crap. There's not it's not all awesome, is it? It's not all awesome what you do. There's some pretty stale times.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Well, if you if you think about the job, it's like you know, the 10% action shooting guns getting shot at, blowing stuff up, and then the rest of it, you need to be a hundred percent for that 10%. Yeah, yeah. So the rest of it is just training and dedication.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

I see, and that's where people struggle with a balance as a life because you've got this massive commitment, this job that isn't a job, it's a life, really. You commit everything to it, and then they struggle when they've got misses, children, and you go, Well, where's my priorities lie? The kind of job demands you give it priorities, and that's where I think a lot of lads struggle. A lot of lads punch out at that stage because they go, you know, I can't balance it, and I'm gonna do the right thing with the family.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

Probably one of the biggest sort of factors, isn't it, as well? I think just reestrain what Jay said there, and a couple of things you know, with Louis and ego, I'll just touch on that point first. I think with that, it's probably an ex it's a way for people to be externally validated. And when I was younger or as a kid, you're you're always insecure and am I accepted, am I good enough? A way to do that is to prove yourself through external validation, be it a course, a feedback. So if you if you put yourself in the you know the hardest military start with the Marines or the paras, you know, the arguably the two kind of hardest infantry, basic infantry courses and training. You know, you pass that and you say, Well, what's next? What's the hardest course within this unit, you know, your sniper course, whatever it is, a PTI course, snipers, whatever it is. You pass that and you say, Well, brilliant, you know, I'm doing alright. Well, now what? I need more validation. You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm riding this wave. So selection. Let's do selection. You do selection, you pass selection, you go, I'm I'm doing really good now. And from the outside looking in, people must think, you know, some sort of superstar ninja, you know, this guy.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

You've got this internal message that you only don't know yourself. No one started, no one started thinking they were going to pass right now. On a minute, yeah. Yeah, so that means Louis, did you start selection thinking I'm gonna crush this?

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Uh do you know what? I I think I just knew that there was there wasn't going to be any stopping me. I'd get to the end no matter what. Um whether I was gonna be selected as good enough or not, I don't know. Yeah, so I suppose yeah, there was a sense of doubt there, but I think what Stas is saying there, it's like that sense of aspiration is a big one for us, and and also that sense of achievement and being able to goal set and then have the reward of being able to tell yourself you've put a shift in and you've got something out of it, whether that's a sense of belonging, belonging to a group, or just your own internal validation, like Stas says.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

It's a combination probably of everything, isn't it, there that you're saying. So your own kind of for your own mindset to say, look, I am I'm accepted here, and and I've proven myself. I have proven myself to probably to the highest standard that we could do within our environment, you know, and then yeah, I'd agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

And then you kind of look down the line and I'd have left a few years before. I had that big carrot on the stick with my pension, but I'd have left a few years before because I felt like I wasn't being challenged enough in the job. I actually enjoyed the last few jobs that I did, but I wasn't challenged in it as the way I was previously in the ways that I was seeking, I think. And so for me to leave and set up my own thing was important to me because I needed a new challenge, and that's been an awesome challenge to have. And I guess that's kind of the same for you guys, where I know sort of circumstances are always slightly different in what made you leave, but ultimately there's you've got to throw yourself into something new. You mentioned feedback. I don't think most people, I think most people are afraid of feedback. I think people I'm gonna say like us because we're weird, like we've already said, most people I'm completely for normal by the no normal person. I had no one else in this room, Louie. Yeah, um mental. Yeah, but uh I think when you when you when you pursue feedback, that's that's when you learn stuff. And I think if people could just understand that that fear of that judgment, that feedback that you might get is a good thing no matter whether it's positive or negative, if you can use it, because without feedback, you've got nothing to base any decision on, right? I don't yeah, I've got to do that.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

And I think I think that goes back to like doing hard stuff. Yeah, it's like you get the best feedback, and I think we're probably all the same in that. It's like you know, we've all done hard stuff, and it's like I have you know, I'll admit that I have a positive feedback loop from doing hard stuff, and it's taught me that through hard stuff, like you know, it's good for me. Like I get growth from it, like I progress in life. So I've always thrown myself into that.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

I agree, and what what do you think is one of the hardest things, not necessarily from the military, but the hardest with it might be the military, but what what's one of the hardest things that you've ever done? Work with Stas and Jay. Yeah, that is a challenge. Working with Louie, that is a challenge, and you're getting constant feedback.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah, constant feedback, Luke, not positive, but uh yeah, mine's gonna be pretty yeah, it's uh it's selection, yeah. Selection is just knocks you on your ass. But I I think same what Jay said there as well, it's that sense of achievement from putting a shift in. I love putting a shift in, and I love just knowing that I've worked hard, and that's internal, that's all internal. I don't need to to you know push that across to anybody else. I just like that for yourself, yeah. Yeah I like knowing that I put shift in.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

So yeah, Jay. Uh Everest Everest Conqueror.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

Um I I I always find myself out, it's like everything that I've done has a different experience. And there's you know, selection was hard, like Everest was hard, but they're all like different experiences. Um like I'd say, like just doing the show. Like the decision to make doing the show was that you know that was that was you know, Stas and Louis are both, you know, agree with this. That was a difficult time for me, isn't because it's not a natural thing for us to come out and and do. Whereas doing Everest, it's like, yeah, I've signed the paper, it's like I know it's gonna be hard. I know it's gonna be physically hard, it's gonna be mentally hard, but I'll enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. You know, the second Everest was probably was probably hot one of the hardest things I've done. Yeah. Probably because the first one, it's like, you know, you don't know what you're getting yourself into. I enjoyed it more, I had less responsibility. The second one, I was guiding on there, I had climbers with me, I had their responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Responsibility, man.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah, and they'd all paid like this big wedge of cash to get to the summit of Everest and that. that weighed on me. Uh you know, eight climbers. Um and when things don't go right and it's it's not your fault, it's the mountain's fault. It's like managing those expectations. So to to then get to the summit with you know three other climbers, it was you know the the joy of that was overwhelming way more than the first time I summited. Um so yeah probably those those two aspects and then I'd say leaving the army like leaving SF and leaving something that you've done for the last 14 years of your life and and being a part of um that was you know I knew it was the right decision but like at the same time stepping into this unknown yeah and it's like I've just been paid like a you know you get paid really well in SF and I've just been I've had this wage that's just constant for the last fourteen years and also like certain wages a nice feeling yeah SF kind of like built you the person that you are today. It's like being a professional kind of sports athlete in some respects because you've you've reached a pinnacle of where you wanted to be you know as career wise especially and it shaped you over those years as an individual before going into SF we were all like or I was the factory worker wasn't I and it's like going back to what Stas said about when did window salesman mate when yeah window sales I wasn't a salesman but but it's like you know I could have been that guy if I'd have chosen a different path or if I'd have failed stuff but I wasn't I was like you know a sergeant in the SAS and then I had to drop all that sign off like go and work with these two but it was like two weeks later I was like I was like sat in my flat in London just like staring at the walls and you've been so used to being around you know high performing SF soldiers and next minute you just you're on your own essentially massive decision and I think that you know that that come on it's it's we've got to be one of the best jobs in the world you know it absolutely is for us weirdos for us weirdos I mean I personally I wouldn't go back but it's yeah we're weirdos remember yeah I think yeah for the weird amongst us yeah intelligent weirdos it's it's amazing but I I'd say that it's it's potentially probably one of the most selfish jobs in the world um you know as you know just to caveat that as well but um you know but like going back to what we're saying I think it it shapes you as a person as me as well I'm super thankful for it I've got some of the closest bonds the worst thing you've ever done for us um physically and mentally probably the selection that selection process for different reasons as well and everybody I think struggles at certain aspects of selection some parts and elements of selection I'm not gonna say I enjoyed it but but I did you know there's certain the challenge you know the the autonomy getting up being I've never had a problem with motivating myself in the morning and getting going so that was never an issue uh you know being out on the hills phase as well and I think we you I remember you you know you mentioned and I was laughing listening to your podcast you know with Foxy and that as well and there was that element of running around the hills being autonomous and being quietly confident in your abilities you know but running around and seeing people it's a leveller isn't it you know look at I'm what am I four foot seven and a bit maybe on a good day pushing it pushing it um Cuban heels on exactly but that what a leveller you stand up we're all carrying the same weight running the same direction up the same big hill you know uh for time and to see people just dropping off people that are you know physically fitter than you you know on paper yeah but they just mentally would break down they'd put so much pressure on themselves uh for whatever reasons and then make their own that they're all come a lot of people do come on selection with a an excuse in the top flap you know they do absolutely and we've all seen it probably and and and and experienced that but I'm the same as UJ I went on there with no excuse.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

So I was kind of like I've got no credible excuse to pull out here I'm on a I'm on a corporal course or I'm on I'm doing a you know a PTI course if I go off and they've offered me this or that. I didn't have that you tell people you were going on yeah yeah I'm do you think that helped or do you think that didn't help um to me I think it helped to me I wasn't too bothered you know I was and this for me was you know the they had talk about the fear of the unknown and and I knew nothing of selection. I knew nothing about it.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

I I knew none of these you turn up you know and I think that that was that was probably a good thing for me because people that been on this course and maybe it's the second third fourth fifth time coming back on selection um God bless them you know and then they'd talk about these marches and each each individual march had a name and I was like oh this sounds horrendous I'm going to hell tomorrow you know I'm back if I'm lucky and the reality of it was you're running around in the fresh air you know on on your own and and I've I've I've rived on that I love that challenge I remember one of the go on it it it's a very simplistic lifestyle isn't it being on selection simple man of simple especially the jungle like I enjoy like there's no distraction there's no mobile phone you know exactly what you're gonna do fire pretty much that day the fire ants were a distraction James I get I understand I I remember um I won't name names but the the chief instructor on my course on the hills was like um his opening speech was like lads this is walking around the hills for five or six hours a day the next day do it again enjoy it that's all it is it's not hard and you're like inside you're like yeah cheers and every day you've got absolute suffering but then you can't help but look back I can look back back now and I've probably said the same things to guys that I've taken through and gone said exactly the same words because you can just look at it for what it is not what it means because that can be built up to be something just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

It can be your your future dreams but every day getting up to just go face this challenge it's walk it's a walk it's not a run people overcomplicate everything in life and everything from the gym and you'd see those people the overthinkers you get on selection and everything and I get it there's there is an element of you know squaring your stuff away making sure everything's right and your kit and equipment but I I'm a tight ass as well so I paid for nothing. People turn up don't they with everything's pimped up all their the burgunds you know they're they're tweaked they're changed and anything to give them this little edge and it was probably more psychological than physical it don't matter where you provides man.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Exactly I remember that I think it was yeah one of the guys working through the jungle like you know in our patrol I was the only guy who who'd not modified his kit in any way and one of the guys I won't name names was like pulled me the DS at the time smudger and he was like uh he was like Sazuka was like uh what's going on with you and I was like checking my kit off what do you mean and he was like are you the tightest man in the world and I was like what do you mean he was like you've literally done nothing to your kit it's literally it's all pusses it's all as it comes out the store and I was like yeah absolutely there's a requirement for it it's like it was like for help it's kind of ironic in the business that you're in now right I know right I know just that yeah no I'm exactly the same I've I am a puss's bloke I was a puss's bloke and uh don't like dipping into my own pockets for kit that I could get given and I was look we were lucky in our old organisations we got a lot of kit so but my early days in my career it wasn't like that but I was exactly the same I wouldn't buy anything cyclone bergs do you remember everyone had a cyclone burger was it cyclops bergen and I was like looks one yeah and they were like that is Ali and I was like I ain't I can't afford one of those I used to have little round socks that I used to pull down over my sort of old school I got hammered on the hills for those because it was a bit of a boot neck thing to do like you're a bit and it was just like just what everyone does I just do the same as what everyone else does and I want to be the great man. Leading back to that slight that edge that people thought they were getting and and it and it's rife now and I think it's in in a good way there's a lot of good stuff out there hacks people want to hack and and and and and that that spectrum's massive isn't it from fitness industry to whatever you're doing but if I modify this or if I do this if I train like this you know people those are questions what boots do you wear it's like it's like the five percent or not even that it's like the two percent and worrying that overthinking the two one percent Railsford with the the British cycling team is all about the one percent differences if you add up all the one percenters then you get this big differential and that's great in like a controlled environment of cycling and swimming but in the real world people aren't even focusing on the fundamentals which is the main stuff the 8% benefit you can have in all of this don't worry about your one percent Eddie Jones came and gave us a talk in my old organisation and he was talking about when he came into the England rugby settle Clive Woodward had been very much like the one percent rules and he was like he didn't just throw it out he was like we can worry about the one percent but there's so much that we can get benefit from granted Clive Woodward won a copy Eddie Jones and hasn't done yet but uh you know yeah very nearly but uh you know it's it's it's true in the sense that post people just want the the fundamentals how much sleep do you get you getting the right food inside your body you know have you got sort of uh a base level of fitness here or um what's this hack that you can take this pill and that'll help you when that goes away or something falls like they if they if they run out of protein you know power on the hills or they something doesn't go right or something's off kilt from their usual program it absolutely fair brain and you see that you see these big physically fit robust guys on the hill break down sat on their burger and I used to run past them and it blow my mind I'd be like are you right are you dying not like me yeah you are not like me and I'd just be thinking look at the guy's nothing in common with you guys get out of my way but you just you get your superman power from it exactly we'll talk about that but you literally just literally suck it out of them yeah it was you know but it it used to just blow it for me blow my mind I used to think how are you rapping and it's it was probably something an element of everything of I've got something better to go back to um and it's it's physically harder or mentally hard I there's no how do you how how do you prepare your brain for that kind of thing how do you do it now so you're in a world now completely different environment but you're surrounded by some big players some big goals I'm gonna throw North Face your Patagonias your arterics are all out never heard of them yeah but these are big players and you're kind of throwing yourself into that challenge. So tell me about how you do it now. Do you want to talk Lou about how we like just just before we move on from the hills I just got this popped into my head I don't know why I'm but did Jay did you have a swamp bottle by the side of your bed still there's under it hold on I'll leave it I'll leave it I'll leave it.