The Duratus Mind - ThruDark part 2

ThruDark are a technical outdoor clothing company born from arduous environments and highly demanding circumstances.  The three Directors of the company were all forged from decades within UK Special Forces.  Nowhere in the clothing industry does their tagline of ‘Endeavour Through Adversity’ command such authenticity.  Operational experiences define their products function.

Along with the host Gaz, Anthony 'Staz' Stazicker, Louis Tinsley and Jay Morton talk all things mindset, purpose, resilience, success and military transition.  Jay also shares his experiences as a DS on the hit TV show SAS WDW.  This is a both lighthearted and unusual insight into the minds of one of the worlds most unique brands. 

Find all things ThruDark at www.ThruDark.com and all other social media platforms. 

Follow Gaz at Duratus UK (www.DuratusUK.com) 
instagram at Duratus_Gaz
Twitter at Duratus_UK
Facebook at Duratus UK

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:32

The kind of let's back it off a little bit to sort of w how did we come up with this idea of of of through dark and I think it was yeah, me and Louie uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Yeah, let's shoot it. So um I think well I was I was coming towards the end of my career anyway, and it's uh I was getting a medical discharge which was gonna go on to a little bit just back then. And it it is a bit of a dark time when you go when you when you think, you know, what's what's on the other side. Um so yeah, we started talking about ideas of what we were gonna do. Me and stars have always been quite uh we've been friends for what, 14 years or 15 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

So yeah, just yeah, just when we're we won course together, we're gonna.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

No, Stars went on before me. Um yeah, it was a couple of years afterwards. Uh but yeah, so we we've known each other for a long time and um we decided I I knew my my cards were for us, so I was leaving, and then yeah, we just started talking about kit really and how how we can make it better.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Yeah, I think at the time we were um we're actually jumping out in America with you know with the squadron out there. Um and you know, you're in the R Center, it's kind of uh in the R Center nowhere, really blind, but all all there is to do there's literally one, I think one Starbucks um uh shop in the in the in the little kind of uh village, I want to call it village, uh town there. And that was it really, in a couple of hotels and then uh an airfield where we would jump from. Uh I think you've probably been there, haven't you guys? Yeah, so we're out there doing some some squadron jumping, high altitude stuff, um, and got quite a bit of time to burn in the background as well. So a few Starbucks runs in and out. And Louis, like he said, he'd he'd kind of his hand had been forced there in terms of having to leave, medic being medically discharged. Um, being the good egg that I am, the good friend. I thought there's no way he's gonna survive on the outside world without me. So obviously I took the hit. I think for me, um just skimming very quickly and reiterating what what we've said already, I was super fortunate in my career. I think guys, when I joined the squadron, you were uh at TL at the time. Um, you know, I was straight in with you, straight amongst amongst good people, and we had a we had a really good time, a really, really good time, which you know, um you know we're super fortunate for. And at the time, I I guess I kind of really didn't know that, but I remember the very first job you know I did was absolutely amazing. You know, it kind of blew all my expectations out of the water and kind of coming off or kind of bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, kind of, you know, uh uh new guy, and just looking at one of the guys and just saying, Amazing. He's like, they're not all that good, just so you know, just to manage your expectations. But I think I kind of rided that wave and was super fortunate. The courses that I did within, you know, um the service were brilliant. Uh it was really uh kind of interested and kept me entertained. Uh always learning. I loved that being on that that sharp kind of learning curve, thrived in that environment, you know, again, found you know, found my knees, got up to that kind of sergeant level, and then you like Jay said, I think you sort of transitioning then from more of an instructor, uh, instructor sort of um role, um, which is fine, which is great. I I enjoyed that element of it. But around that same time, I was kind of for me at my half pension point. So I was you know, looking at myself, decision point. Have I got have I got another 10 years to give? You know, and uh honestly, I I kind of I felt like I'd I'd had a I'd had a great time. Uh let's just close, let's just close that book uh and let's move on to something something new, you know, and and family-wise as well, and moving out decisions, and it it, you know, it it had, you know, let's be honest, probably wrecked, you know, my first kind of you know, marriage there as well. Um, you know, driven a big wedge in. I think just harping back to what we originally said about it being a selfish job, you know, looking at that now objectively, yeah, super selfish. Um and puts probably too much strain on any relationship, I'd say. There's probably a reason why there's a 99% kind of uh divorce stroke split rate. Um, you know, and it is it is you know, um a lot probably to do with that and decision points anyway. But I think you know, from there it was um I I was happy in my own mind. I'd ticked my boxes and I was happy. You know, there's a couple of things I probably would have liked to have done, but I I didn't want to wait around forever for the you know possibility of a couple of jobs or good things happening. So chasing it, that's chasing it. That's key in it, you know. So yeah, I think just pump the brake, stop, get off. Uh and I think the good thing about us leaving is that you know, the usual transition I think for us guys is skill set-wise is to jump straight into security. You know, it's easy, uh, well paid, you know, an easy transition for us, skill set-wise. You know, like-minded people are probably you know uh good jobs jumping straight into them. The opportunities are there and they're rife. And we've done a little bit of that at the very start, um, kind of uh to lie in our own pockets to help build and grow the business and kind of uh from the very start. But I think for for me and Louie, it was a case of you know, uh jumping out in Blythe. You know, everybody knows special forces, you know, we run on our on a separate budget there, you know, kind of the rock stars of the military, aren't you? You get all the best kit and equipment from weapons, optics, you know, uh, and clothing. Um, but we were still super critical of the way that everything performs, you know, uh from the clothing aspect. And I think um for us being kit pests as well, me and Louis, you kind of always kind of you know pride ourselves on the way you look and feel and operate and all that kind of stuff. Um we thought we could naively at the time, looking back now, you know, we could knock this out of the park. Um utilising our knowledge and experience.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

What year was this? How long ago we're talking now when reality because it ain't longer.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

17 17, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, so only three years ago, so not long.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

No, not not long at all. And I think from there, you know, um it was a case of right, Louis leaving. You know, I kind of had a chat with Louis and was like, I'm ready to leave, you know. Let's let's put these ideas and thoughts uh down on paper. And I think that's we kind of drew strength from our experience within the military, and there's kind of a lot of um I think skills again that can that can transition across into business. And I think that's why quite a lot of our guys do quite well in in a business kind of um perspective, because we just we just went at it with a military kind of planning um aspect.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Do you think it's that or do you think it's just what we've that the things we've spoken about with them the mindset of you've you're happy to face a challenge, you're looking for personal massive kahunas, um, and you're just prepared to chance those kahunas. A combination of everything I'd say there, guys. Absolutely. You've learned a lot from your experiences, but equally all you've got is that feedback that actually, if you face a challenge, you can go do it. Whereas most people, like we said earlier, probably aren't prepared to face a challenge because they're not prepared for the feedback. You're going, do you know what? Let's go give this a whirl.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

And do you know what? What do you know what the worst thing that could have happened to us? The worst thing is we could have gone.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Maybe I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yeah, just chucking them out there.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah, um still might happen, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Have you heard something? Um I think for us, you know, the the worst case scenario was you know, down a few pennies, obviously put you know, putting our own our own money into this.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

But I think massive, massive coping mechanism right there, lose a few pennies.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Lose a few pennies a few pennies, kids on the street, nothing else. Just just um pennies. I think for us it was a case of looking at it, if it all goes belly up, we can always rejoin. You know, we've not burnt any bridges that well I hope not back in work there. So and your worst case, your worst case scenario is is is you've got to remember, is some put somebody's best case scenario at that time, people that were on selection, and and you kind of I didn't forget that. And so that was always in the back of my mind, you know. I wasn't worried about finding work or transitioning, which I know a lot of people do kind of worry about. Um, I was always confident that I could find work if I needed to find work and pay the bills. I was happy, so I didn't put that pressure on myself in that respect. But um, yeah, what do you think with that, Louis? Do you think for for us in terms of setting up it was I think once we got that idea, and you know, we were speaking to Jay as Jay as well on the side, we'd kind of already feathered that nest with Jay, and then it was a case of well, what do we need to do now to make this happen?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah, I think that was it. So it's solutions not problems, isn't it? So yeah, the I mean the amount of obstacles we've overcome since the start have just been yeah, epic, insurmountable. But I think uh that's what we do, we just we attack every single problem with the solution. It's um I mean you started working out your living room, didn't we? In uh big whiteboard as you long-term borrow from work. True military. Still got it, it's in the back. Yeah, um, and then yeah, just started uh really. We've been around the the world twice, spoke to everyone once.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Yeah, we had uh we had nothing, Kennedy.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

I think for me, define success. What is success?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

I don't want I don't want your I want your definition. It's creeping, it's um yeah, creeping excellence is an absolute classic. I think if we we we've done it a few times and just taken stock and just sit there and go, you know, what have we achieved? We did it actually on our year anniversary point when we managed to get Jay and Nims to the top of Everest in our suit. I mean they've got themselves the round of the colours. Um, quality operators to do that, unbelievable, but I think it was uh stuff like that just kind of hits home and you're like a year in and this is what we've achieved. Something that other brands can't even think of achieving. We've managed to do that within a year.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

So um this is probably a podcast in itself, isn't it, through the arch buttons it's um and I think that's I think that's key because I think people struggle to like you said, you both said, what success because um you look at where you've if you sit if you sit down and you look back, you go, Oh my word, look what we've done in this year. This two years now you've been sort of uh active, whatever, then that's significant. But we that's not how our brains work, is it? We go, we could do so much better.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

But I think that's a good thing, I think that's healthy. I think it's healthy.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

You won't get progression if you just think, all right, this is success, this is it, we're happy with how much we're selling, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

I think what's interesting is I I think probably from the outside looking in and and and when you look at successful people and you know, listen to a lot of podcasts and and and and bits and pieces, it all harps back to the same element of remember when you I think we spoke about it at the start, where did it start, you know? And and if we look back now at some of our Instagram, for instance, and and social media, of which we do everything, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Um videos are sexy, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

I I think it's fair at this point probably to shout out a few people, you know. There's obviously myself Louis and Jay here, and and we all kind of have our own swim lanes and functions within Through Dark in terms of what we do on a day-to-day basis, uh, all kind of striving towards that same goal. Yeah, well, um at the moment it's got it's got to be uh Louie, I'd say. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's me, mate, because uh I'm always slacking off the work to be honest. It's a good excuse to get out of the office, isn't it? Well um, I think for us, uh you know, we are a we're a small kind of four-man team. We've got Matt Hardy in now, give him a shout out and the recognition he deserves. But you know, he's come on as like a media director for us at the moment, deals with all the you know the photography, which you know we we get a lot of great praise and feedback for at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

But it's epic, it's absolutely epic, you know. But if you look back stuff I see on Instagram, it yours your stuff's right up there. It's it's as good as what anyone else is putting out.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Oh mate, thank you, thank you. I mean, uh it's it's nice to have that sort of feedback as well from other people, and and I think what I'm trying to get to here, long story long, start again, is that if we look back through our feed on Instagram or Facebook or whatever, our first couple of posts, we'd probably laugh now and go, what the what were we thinking? What were we doing? But we didn't know, but we had to start somewhere, and you have to start somewhere. Same with the podcast and stuff. Do you start you progress? Um, no, they're still they're still on there. Some of them are still there, they're still on there, yeah. Um we've archived a few.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

I think we've always said to ourselves as well, it's like when when you produce something, or it if it is this a bit of kit or it's a photo or whatever else, have you done the best you possibly could with the tools that you have at that time? And I think we can hand on heart say that yes, we did. So at that time, that was what we did.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Yeah, we had this idea to like design, develop, and test the clothing ourselves. And I think that's kind of where the credibility comes from from the company perspective, and why you know we seem to have a lot of kind of returning customer-based people that are getting behind the brand because it's us, it's real, you know. They know when they're messaging us on Instagram or emailing, it's it's going to be one of us guys. It's authentic, we're picking it up. And and hand on heart, just to reiterate what Louis's saying there, it's you know, we're not trying to have people's eyes out here, we're not getting our stuff made in China, you know, we're not just slapping through dark on this stuff, and we've probably seen ourselves off massively down this route of designing and developing and testing kit because it takes so long to do this process, and we're making clothing um with our feedback and input from scratch, from a design, from a drawing, you know. Um, we're not picking existing stuff and saying, Look, it's kind of cool, let's just stick off rip some of that off, let's go to China and get it made out of the cheap, and then just rip people off. It's not about that, you know. We've got a fantastic factory now over in Italy that we've been with pretty much from the start. You know, we were introduced uh to that factory by Jeff Griffin, you know, a British designer that we initially started out with um at the start of our journey. You know, again, that was us just trawling around the internet trying to find people to help. And we had no experience, no subject matter, industry knowledge, experience within you know designing and manufacturing. So we were just picking it up and just learning on the job. And Louis was flying out to China, you know, on his Jack Jones. Would you fly out to China right now?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Probably not right now. Deadie with the coronavirus. Um, but yeah, I think it's just mad the idea. I took two weeks' work experience in a factory up in Preston, which is uh which is just mad thinking back now. But I learned so much, I think, uh just getting your balls in your hand and just committing to something. I think um where a failure is is in there without a shadow of a doubt, but all daily, yeah, daily, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think just um yeah, just putting a shift in and just wanting to achieve and wanting so bad for the end product to be correct, it's like yeah, we've we've put a shift in.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

I think it's difficult. People I think everybody says this, it's a classic, isn't it? The tip of the iceberg, people never see the other stuff, and and until you do this and get stuck in stuck into this on the daily, I'm talking, you know, there's I don't know, 80 80 hour weeks probably that we're all putting shifts in here and doing stuff, uh apart from Jay when he's paddleboarding. But uh but I think you know for us it it it is that isn't it? And I think that that's what makes this so unique in some respect because it is it's us, we are the brand, and and hopefully that passion comes across.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

And uh, you know, again, being completely wide open about it, you know, people might look at it and go, pricey for a jump of that, but you just cannot you cannot get the the the quality, the thought, the years of thinking into a product that you get with your stuff because you've all got it.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

We've always said for for ourselves, you know, we keep leaving it pretty nice jump. Sweating extra small I'm sweating.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

This podcast is not sponsored by Through Diet. It should be, but not yet. Not yet.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

But I think I think we've always said this stuff as well, Jeff. But I think because you know, you technically climb as well, I out in the mountains, and we've used clothing ourselves at a high level in no failure kind of scenarios, and I think we understand how important you know, quality kit and equipment and clothing is. You know, we're right of arc, and we're extreme, you know. But I think for people, we could we could make clothing cheaper, absolutely. We'd go to China tomorrow, pull out some jackets, rip it off. Well, don't maybe not tomorrow, but um we we could knock so far, but we've always said, you know, hand on heart for us, quality uh has to has to be at the very forefront, and then the functional technical aspect is always at the forefront of our minds.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

What's the big goal with ThroughDoc then? Have you got one? Do you want to share it? Are you able to share it? Is it like what is this kind of dream as far as ThroughDoc brand is concerned? Have you got you don't have to share it. I can chop this bit out, editors' rights.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Yeah, I think you know, um waffling here, but I think well I'm not, we're passionate about it. So I want to get there's so much stuff I want to get across, but in put in the right, put in the right manner. I think for us, we've always said, you know, we've we had we started with this business plan, you know, the transition from whiteboard to then you know uh Mac MacBook. Yeah, continually. But I think it's important that you have a business plan and you have a strategy and you always keep moving back and make sure whatever you're doing within that business, and there's loads of analogies and stuff that you can use and utilize, but for us, it's you know, at the start, we've probably had too many ideas, too much stuff going on, trying to dial it back at the right sort of stages with the right input, with the right testing and development, excuse me, and everything else in between. I think the main goal to sort of answer that question for us is to be like at you know, at a minimum, be the UK's leading outdoor technical brand that people look to and say, Look, I'm you know, I'm I'm whatever I'm doing, skiing or I'm I'm outdoor pursuits, whatever I'm doing, I want something that's authentic, I want something that's that has a has a good heritage, a good story, and I know that it's a no-fail jacket, and also our credibility and ethos that and and integrity, the things that we've pulled across from our military background, they that they run deep through through the the through. business, you know, everything from you know customer support to care, everything they have that customer kind of package as well that we're we're we're kind of big on at the moment, and I think that's that's what people like, and you know, I think that hopefully comes across as as genuine as well. But um, I think people like you know, the world we live in now as well, on you know, in terms of social media and things, it's um a blessing. I think what people like to see is us designing, developing, they go through that stages, you know, then Jay and ourselves will go out and we'll test uh and evaluate that kit and equipment, and if it's not right, it's not right, you know. And we're not we're not bound by kind of external pressures and and and investors and people saying, Come on, you know, I need return here, or you know, the seasonal kind of pressures as well. We're not fashioned clothing, you know. If it's not ready, it's not ready. You know, and I think for looking back when we initially launched the brand, we picked the three items that that were ready at the time. Um, but in hindsight, when probably it wasn't the best business idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

So what's the biggest mistake?

SPEAKER_03 18:51

I think it wasn't a mistake, it's everything's everything it is. It's learning, mate. It's learning because you don't know until you do this this stuff, you're not making mistakes on purpose. You you're doing this because at the time you believe that's the right idea. I'd say releasing an expedition parker around summertime when we launched, potentially not the best business idea, but they were the three items that the hybrid, the hybrid jacket and I think the zodiac jacket were the three items at the time that were ready and had ran through production and then were delayed. You know, we have all this kind of stuff that we have to manage and mitigate and and work around, and and that's kind of Louis. I was talking about swim lanes earlier. That's kind of Louis's swim lane and uh trunks, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah, which it's like an out-of-control horse going downhill, it's just like trying to get caught up, it's that's selection as well, pretty much. But yeah, um, just trying to get caught up, and it like it's a big beast, and it's you know, it's a small man team, and honestly, the amount of work you have to put in to try and get something across the line is just epic, and you know that that was that was one of them. I think the one that came to mind for me is and and we made up for it. We we tried to get some stuff made in the UK, which is which is very difficult. It's like knife over four, pretty, pretty simple. And um it it didn't go to plan. The the the garments got sewn wrong, the stitching all came undone, and we delivered these, bearing in mind we got them across the line, um, got them out uh you know, over working all hours around Christmas as well. Yeah, 23rd of December. Yeah. I was sleeping in the office, which is you know pretty much my life. Um and then yeah, we so we delivered them, and then yeah, about about you know, two or three days later we started getting the reports back, you know, the stitching's come on done all that. Just to be able to break it. Yeah, it was just uh it was tough for us to be able to get our heads around right. We ended up doing a prog a product recall, which which cost us as a business, a startup business six months in credible amount of money for a start up, and yeah, but we we just asked ourselves, you know, what what's the right thing to do? So we had a lot of things. Principles, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

The principles are clear, integrity.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

You know, if you're gonna build a business, build it on you know strong foundations. So we did the right thing, um and then yeah, pulled it out of the bike, but it yeah, it it took some uh it took some digging out the incident pit that way.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, and I think we're talking about the incident pit that way. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

The incident pit for just for people that people that don't understand what the incident bit is you dig yourself into a hole and then you just end up digging yourself in a big bigger hole with all the solutions that you try and find for it, and it's yeah, it's a big old dark hole.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Spot the mistakes early. Um so yeah, so what uh Jay, how about yourself then? So are we just going you're joining through dark and where do you sort of where do you fit in all this for the people listening and and kind of where uh where you're gonna take it, help them take it? Chief Balaborder.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Um like um you know, when we initially spoke with Sidaz and Louis, it was important for them to to get you know to join forces SBS and SAS. Unite the clans. But it it's all about that, you know, you know, there's experience on both sides, but it's um what's the word? I can't remember it. I can't remember it. But uh No, I think it was important for for you to to get to to join and and get collaboration, yeah, SBS. And it's you know it's credible. Um and then yeah, it was it was a it was um we were actually on a team exercise.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Yeah, we're on a on a black roll exercise.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Grinder uh Grinder. Grinder. I mean it was uh yeah, it was team exercise. Like I knew Stas anyway. We've probably known each other for uh four four to six years before that. I was on selection with Louis.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

We're cycling through the same like squadron-wise as well. Kind of seeing each other in the room, yeah, and the role mod as well, and the external of that as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, and at the time I was I was getting out, like I'd you know, they put me outside and we used to chat, didn't we? And we're just like, I was like, I think I'm pulling the pin, lads. And they were like, Well, actually, lads, we've got we've got something in the uh pipeline, like we we want to get you on board. At the time I didn't really know what it was, um, and you invited me up here, didn't you? Yeah, and I I was gonna get out and and just just push the button on the mountain stuff and and try and set up some sort of like expeditions like company or uh look at kind of where I can take that. Um, and yeah, just just invited me into the fold and uh the rest is kind of history, but yeah, I I kind of bring the the mountain aspect of the outdoor experience to the brand. Um, so like like you know, we can all we all hold our kind of own remit and our own experiences, you know, Staszi's Mobo, air and all that kind of stuff. For me, it was air or it was mountain initially, and air. So um, you know, I had that mountain guide background. Um, and initially we kind of wanted to do some sort of kind of expedition stuff, didn't we? So yeah, but but looking at it, it was a very big beast, and the kind of the payback for us wasn't that great. So it was more about kind of where we can fit into you know what where can we get the best bang for the book in terms of testing the kit, in terms in terms of you know, content, in terms of getting the credibility of us going out and and using this kit in all those extreme conditions, and then feeding it back into you know into the production of it. Um, and that's kind of where it sits at now, isn't it? It's like you know, the development of the summit suit, taking that up Everest, getting it on NIMS.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Shout out to NIMS, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, uh so all that kind of aspect, and then kind of you know, future-wise, it's it's the more it's more into like so where can we stick, where can we where can we place our clothing in what kind of extreme conditions and and where can we take it in the future? Um and we're actually looking at the minute now of running some sort of packages and experiences or expeditions in the future, brand experience stuff, yeah. So it's you know, it's taking you know people that want to come along into these extreme locations, use the kit, and again that can then feed back into the production of the kit.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

And uh yeah, capture content and everything as well. But I think that's pretty much Jay's um kind of swim lane effectively. But it's I mean, uh we're fortunate, aren't we? You know, we are in terms of a brand and a startup brand as well, to have this much experience, I think you said earlier at the table between three or four guys by design though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

It is absolutely more it's your good decisions that have put you this in this situation, you've chosen your team well. I think again, one of the things that I do with corporate and elite sport is talk to them about what high performance team looks like. I you know, I don't know what their team I don't always know the answers to what their solutions are, but I can tell you from my old world, this is what an elite team looks like. We select on character rather than performance, right? So performance is important, but character's the most important. Are you the right fit? That metric and which is mega subjective is is way more important than actual like with elite sport, the the the running speed or the VO2 max, and actually is he a good fit? That's way more important, and that's subjective, and you've uh chosen your team wisely, do you know what I mean? And that's that's why I know you'll continue to have success because you're all similar, but that's uh not normal. That's you've chosen well. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah, I think uh like uh that's probably a good time to step in and just say that starting a business as well with somebody that's uh your best mate. Um testing yeah, testing. I mean, bloody hell and we can I don't like I think we can both say this that I don't think we'd have got this far if it had been anyone else's there's no one else I could have started a business with and not been able to knock heads and still pull it out of the bag because uh we've had our moments, but nothing bad. We've always shook it off and then uh and grown it in the right way. And I and I think just trying to get somebody else who's a who's a fit, and we'd nailed Jay from from the off, really. That sounds wrong. Is that your induction? But we you know, we picked him out right at the start, even when me and Stas was just starting to talk about the idea of through dark, Jay was already, you know, he was and his characters like Gaz said about there, isn't it, as well?

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Performance, you're looking around, you know, again amongst your peers and everybody else within you know the work environment, SPS, SES, what whatever. And for us, it was a case of character-based, like Jay's a good person, we like Jay, you know, and you know, he's a friend first and foremost, but his his character is very akin to ours, you know, and uh work ethic, everything was was was great, and um, it wasn't about you know, it was about a unit thing as well, but but predominantly it was for me and Louis, you know, horsing him off here. But it's like Jay's a good lad, you know, and and he'd be an absolute asset and character to have on board here for us, you know, and uh absolutely and and that trust uh I think I think one to add on that is like likewise as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

It's like if I was to go into a business or if I was to go and work for someone now after being in in the SAS for 10 years, like I'd I'd want the exact same thing back. I'd want want to work with people that I trust, I want to work with people that inspire me that I can learn stuff off. I don't want to push each other, yeah, completely. I don't want to go back into like I don't want to go backwards and and start working for someone that that doesn't touch all them buttons.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah, you don't have to be going into an organization when you're pulling everyone, you're all pushing each other, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:00

It's like exactly it is fairly unique in some respect, isn't it? This because I remember this people we have had the naysayers and and people looking, and it's probably a mixture of a bit of jealousy and a bit of uh um, you know, we're doing something different here, and and it freaks people out. It does freak people out.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

They're like what it's easy to be outside of it and to look at what you're doing and for people to especially from our old organisations and not understand. Do you know what I mean? They and and they can't get the con they can't they haven't got the perspective of what it's like when you when you've left, and you've left for your own choices. So uh I know obviously you were injured, Louis, but you've left for your own choices, so people will say, Well, you've made a you've made a bed, go sleep in it, right? But but equally, um they they can't see it for what for the realities of what it's like when you've left, it's different to what you expect in the world.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

From door kicking to fabric fabric fullers, which which is a book in itself, yeah. Um I think yeah, just it's been an interesting journey. I think like what Stan said there as well, the naysayers that's another you know, fuel for the fire. That I think we've always used it as a motivator when somebody's said something negative or we've heard something negative about what we were doing from you know old colleagues. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

It's I think it's a lack of understanding, or you know, nothing. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

So on that, because that leads quite nicely, Jay, aka number four. So you've mentioned earlier um about volunteering for or putting yourself out there for the show. So just as as much as you're willing, sort of unpick the sort of fears that you had about that. Because I've got my own opinions on what I'm doing, and I know it's going to relate to what you're about to say because I can just feel it, which is why I'm scratching it now. But sort of what were your fears when you sort of put your head above the parapet and uh and made that decision to be a TV star?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, I'll probably go back to like um one of your previous questions, and yeah, that was definitely one of the hardest points in my life. Um and you know, it doesn't look like that from the outside, but you know, it's a very unnatural thing, and you know, ever since Andy McNabb came out came out with Bravo 20 and the and the movie, kind of media and film and book has always been you know shunned against in in the in the special forces community. It's not something that people come out and do, and if they do, you know, a lot of bad words are said about that person back in in the camps. Um so you almost have this like you you've been institutionalized to to think and feel this at the same time. And you know, I've caught myself, I remember when the the SAS show came out on on TV, the first one, and I was sat in a sauna with a group of men and uh you know, group of geezers, and we were talking about it. And I remember like initially the lads were like what's the show all about kind of thing. And in my head, I like watched the show the night before and I was like, it's not that bad. It's like you know, they're not giving away secrets like Bravo 2.0 did, or you know, if anything, at the worst, they're just exposing their theirselves to the public, and all the lads in the in the sauna at the time turned around and they were just like, Yeah, you're probably right there. And I thought it's that it's that weird pack mentality, isn't it? Of you know, you're institutionalized and led to believe that that media and stuff is bad. So yeah, so you know, coming up to the decision of of going on the show, for me it was it was more about you know, I'd spent the last 10 years in the SAS, I'd I'd built up, you know, pretty credible, you know, it was pretty credible in there, you know, people trusted me with a with our lives essentially, and and likewise that that's the way it was in in SF. And you've got this family in there, haven't you? We're all orphans until we go in there, and you've got this family in there, and people trusted you and you trusted them, and and you get to the stage where actually you're pushing the button on this TV show, and I was just I was just waiting for it. I was just waiting for like the the pushback of the you know the the messages to start coming in and people calling me and stuff. And there was a little bit of it. There was a little bit of it, but yeah, I think it's more you know, it's the pressure that you build up in your own head. Um, I won't lie, there was like you know, sleepless nights, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Um but yeah, I think well again, just for people who's listening context, and I can feel I can see it and feel it, and I I know exactly what you mean. I just want to try and add a bit of detail for people because you've just got this trusted environment where we just don't talk about this stuff. Now, again, what you're talking about isn't official secret stuff. You're not talking, you know, you are putting your head above the parapet of I've done this, and there's a risk to that which you're taking on the shoulders. And my issue is that people perceive, well, no, you just can't, you know, you are losing all your trust because you're just willing to even put your head above the parapet. And I and I just go, uh I don't necessarily agree with that because I think there's lots of lessons you can help people with. Just the narrative what you just said then about the vulnerability that you've shown, the fear that you've shown. People go, well, you know, people would assume you're doing this for fame, you're doing it for fortune. And I know I know that's not the reason, um, but people would assume that. And then and it's interesting for I think for people to listen and to go, I did not expect that. But just the the the fear narrative, the fear of what the lads that you like, you trust, your old family, your brotherhood think about you is powerful, isn't it? It's it's massively influential on the decisions that you make. It's hard to fear a judgment.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

It's I think it's hard for people to understand that. You know, it's like you've gone through this last 10 years being shot at with this with this group of group of geezers, group of guys, and it's like that trust that you develop over that time is like so strong. To then, like, you know, I didn't know then that it wasn't so much of a big deal to you know to 95% of the guys in the regiment, but like then I thought it was like a big deal to 100% of everyone in the regiment. You feel like that. I felt like I'd let everyone down almost. But like for me, it was you know, it's like I looked at the show and I looked at like you know, I was quite um good mates with Foxy at the time, and I spoke to him a lot about it, and it's like I was saying to the guys, it's like like I'd never do anything that puts the regiment in bad light, or I'd never, you know, start giving away secrets in in newspapers and that kind of thing. It's like not what I'm about, not what anyone in this room's about. It's like, you know, you look at Foxy, you know, the rest of the DS and Ollie Billy, it's like they're role models for the future. Yeah, flying.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

This is why, again, so one of my former jobs, you know, I've been trying to try to understand why I was attracted to the organisation I was. This is what partly why I don't pick it now. And I I've used that story before about Bravo 2.0. I watched the Royal Marines TV show, those were the things that sowed the seed for me. And so I can't ignore the fact that the books that the lads have written, and again, I know they've they've all gone through the disclosure process, and there's probably the best bit's been taken out, probably rightly, but I'm sure I don't know the details of that any of that. But uh that sort of stuff does affect the future of sustainability. I'm convinced by it, and it'll always attract the people that don't know and don't don't need to know. Like I was definitely someone that didn't need to know details, I just I liked it enough I was gonna go do it. You're always gonna find those people, but you're trying to attract as many as people because guess what? It's not many people make it through the pipeline, so you need a lot of people wanting to do it, aspiring to do it, and that's that comes you know, whether one issue is, and again, uh just for uh for my own kind of uh peace of mind talking about it. I know with the the Navy SEALs that they've on the back of all the movies that have happened over the recent years, they've just started to attract the wrong people. And we talk about character, and uh my fear is the TV shows because uh what I see in the TV show, the facade of the TV shows, the shouting and the hollering at people and trying to break people. That was never my world. That's nothing that I ever understood from my world. No one's ever shouted at me to do to motivate me to do something difficult. It's been self-motivated, and the organizations are very much about people being driven by their own intrinsic motivator, that brotherhood, that sort of thing. But you never really have to shout. So it's kind of built on a little bit of a well, you're breaking people in different ways. It's a lot of a navy seal way of Hell Week and trying to thrash people and seeing if they can sustain it. That's got its place, but it's not what I knew. Do you know, do you know what I mean? Is there some sort of you know, yeah, completely.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

I mean, the show is complete completely different to normal selection, isn't it? It's like you can't then recreate a six-month course in you know 10 or 12 days. It's like so, like you know, you've got to look at it as in how do you afflict maximum pressure on a load of civilians? Because you can't they're not military people, are they? So it's like you know, you go back to P company or you go back to your basic training, it's it's similar aspects to what you what you had then, it's like discipline, yeah. There's a lot of shouting and that kind of stuff, but like you're essentially just that shouting's just enforcing pressure on on those people and and trying to make them slip up under that pressure.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah, big style, uh fair play. I mean, so what's been the the kind of your feelings, how it's gone so far?

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Oh awesome, you know, it's been a great experience. And um like looking back on that time just before the show was gonna come out, and I was getting all that negative press, it was like you know, that's all kind of gone now, and even you know, the the the negative like comments that I did get, like the more that you get, the easier it becomes. Um, and they're coupled with like the positive feedback and stuff like that. But you know, I always knew that it was the right thing to do for me, and and it's been been a great experience to do it.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

I think it's probably not allowing that that we we say it in here as well, not allowing that 20% to affect the 80%, I think, and just dialing down and concentrating on that. But just to reiterate that from our perspective, what a you know, it is a big it's a big shout, isn't it, for anybody to do that? Sticking your head above there. There's a lot of pressure that you probably put on yourself, and I know we spoke at length about it and stuff, and it is brave.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

And um page three of the sun. Page three of the sun, was it? Or page two. Uh I saw it on social media, mate.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

But uh good article, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah, social media, nice thought. Um which one? So, lads, uh it's about wrapping this up, but what's next then? Sort of just quickly round the room, what's the uh what's the sort of things you're facing over the next 12 months and what you're gonna do? Um where you're taking it.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

I think just uh related pursuit of excellence, just uh yeah, let's uh let's have a big gear. I've got a a knee a knee recovery to get over. Um talking about regret jumping off a cliff wasn't a good idea. Uh good for good for the gram. Get myself recovered, and I think we just want to start doing some more expeditions, really, just get ourselves away and testing more gear. And it's it's hard because we haven't had the capacity to do what we intended to do on the like when we started, was to get outside, yeah, get these expeditions done, prove, prove the uh the clothing for what it is.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

I I think we're tracking, we're doing, you know. I don't think it's so much a case of what's next, what's the next big thing, you know. We we've got certain things within that strategy and business plan milestones that we're aiming for, things that are on the dartboard that you know we're absolutely heading heading towards, and you know, we're kind of we're tracking in the right direction in that respect. I think I just want to take this opportunity to to probably thank a few people, go for a few pertinent people that have been uh intrinsically involved and linked towards Through Dark and others, and uh you know, from you know friend perspectives. I think it's a massive strain on friend friendships, on relationships. So thank you to everybody at home and loved ones and everybody like that and families. And I think people you know that have uh have been of significant importance, you know, and um collaboration-wise as well, moving forward is something else that we're looking into. I think you know, the the guys at Bramont, Nick and Giles and other people uh LinkedIn towards that, you know, the company there as well, helping us out with you know brand positioning and placement, you know, offering us up, you know, um in terms of uh events and bits and pieces, and massive thank you to you know uh Osprey and other people that we're currently working with towards bigger and better things. And and I think NIMS has given the you know recognition and the shout-out that man deserves. And NIMS is you know, he'll probably say this himself, but we've been involved and and and worked personally and closely with NIMS for a long time, you know, from uh professional level from camp. And then and since he's left as well, you know, he's gone through that his own struggles and his own kind of um hurdles, big hurdles, 14 of them. Yeah, um, but I think what a lot of people don't see is is that stuff in the background, you know. We've been closely linked to NIMS, and he's been up this office more times you can shake a stick at from a friend's perspective, from a business perspective, from everything, you know, kind of um you know, he's helped us, we've helped him uh from the very get-go, and I think kudos to that man. I mean, uh I I doff my my my through the heart cap, which are available on the on the website. Um I think you know, credit where credit's due here, and what he's achieved is absolutely incredible. And we were just a small part, you know, uh, and we were happy to to to link him in with kind of our contacts and people that we know to kind of facilitate that that kind of project possible as much as we could, but you know, credit belongs to you.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

The picture on the back just over your head, yeah. I still can't wrap it. I understand it probably more than most, and I still can't wrap my head on the bottom. I can't bend my head around what is what he's achieved. I could probably chat to Jay about this with who's got a lot more experience, but again, just whether you can just you probably have got the perspective, and what I don't know again, just quickly, sort of from your two summits of Everest and a fair old sort of uh mountain resume, but uh you know what he's done, where where do you stand on it?

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah, I think I think everyone knows how massive a feat that is of climbing all 14 of the 8000 is. Um yeah, phenomenal, like um pushing human potential. You know, the first thing that I do when I come off an 8000er is get I just want to get home and just eat food and rest. Uh but that man's just cracked on for six months, seven months, was it? Has he stopped?

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Has he actually stopped?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

We're like Nims, mate, just just chill, take you know, go on holiday, relax. He's like, no, mate, no, mate, go to Argentina, do my climbing, mate.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

He's in the office tomorrow, so he said it's gonna be a good chance to catch up with him. Incredible, isn't it? But I think thank you as well to everybody who's been following the journey as well so far for us for Through Dark and all the customers, we've got a strong customer base now, loyal customer base. I think thank you. Just keep pushing it out and keep sharing it and liking it and posting it.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah, great. We haven't asked, you know, we haven't we've asked the world of them and they haven't asked nothing from us. So, yeah, thank you to them.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

They know where they are, and then finally, then so if you could uh offer a word of advice to your sort of younger self to sort of give you the things you've learned over the last let's say 15 years plus, you know, that you that have made a difference for you. What what would be for the people listening? What are the things that you've learned that can help people out?

SPEAKER_02 42:44

I think uh for me there's always that self-doubt, and um always, and that's a good thing, that's a healthy thing, but you're better than what you think you are. I think that's the uh that the that's the advice. It should be a song.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

I think it is. What we're gonna do a song if you won. Stas.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Um, yeah, probably probably pretty similar here. I mean, there's uh I'll give the PC answers a few things. Um I think for me, um, what advice would I give myself looking back? You've got to run the course yourself, haven't you? You've got to get stuck into that and understand that it's not. I think we mentioned it earlier, it's it's mistakes, but it's lessons. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Everything generally works out, you know, just fine.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I think uh overthinking catastrophise stuff, can't we? That's what you were talking about in a nutshell a minute ago, Jay. Overthinking of what people were going to judge you of, you know, that catastrophise bias, big style.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

Massively, I think be your own person as well. Run your own race and be your own person. Don't be afraid to step outside, you know, stop get off the train, stop following everyone else. Do what makes you happy as a person, uh, whatever that might may be. In your three-dot jumper. In your three-dot jumper of a weekend. Um, I think yeah, just don't put too much pressure on yourself, enjoy it, and um you'll find you'll find your tribe, you'll find your like for like people.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

And you will is it sorry, just to pick what you've said, is it don't apply too much pressure to yourself, or is it apply plenty of pressure to yourself, but don't overburden yourself. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Yeah, that's a burden stroke pressure, uh balance there, I think. Absolutely. But and um uh you can you can you can achieve so much stuff, can't you, if you just put your brain to it and put one? I think the main thing that I've learnt is is is action, putting thought to action is probably one of the biggest things that you you can probably do.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Action to thought.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Absolutely. So it's taking those first steps and and yourself, Jay.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Um yeah, probably like looking similar to kind of Louis and Staz's, kind of looking back at you know, 20 years, 10 years. I'd say you know, 20 years I was shit at everything. I think if I look back at me now in 20 years, I'll probably think I was shit at everything now. Absolutely. Uh so I think it's it's a it's more about just understanding that no matter what you do or how you do it, like it'll all be fine, kind of thing. Understanding that process that you'll get better as time goes on. Um and then yeah, just kind of in in terms of direction, just you know, one thing that's been probably really important for me is just understanding where I'm going and like what life I want to live and like what I want to what I want to achieve, and then understanding what you're going away from as well to get there.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Big style. There's a lot there. So again, people talk a lot about goal setting, but I don't think people know how to practically apply it. You spoke about whiteboards, you know, literally writing it down. Physically writing that helps, yeah, mussively. You've just talked about it there, having a picture of what it is you're trying to achieve. We've all done that in a that is the in the nutshell, complex problems that we were doing in our old organizations. In a nutshell, what we've done, made a plan, you've gone and done it. Has it always gone well? No. Did you learn from it? Yes, and then going again, uh reflecting on that and improving things and going again and again and again. And that's that relentless pursuit of excellence. I think Stottie owns that is a tagline, doesn't he? These days, never heard of her. But no, I mean that is in a nutshell what it's all about, and and there's that that is a lesson for everyone. Lads, Megra, appreciate your time. Um your time is precious, and you you sort of push in hard, you're working an awesome business. I love it. I've got a lot of respect for all of you and what you're doing, and uh long may it continue. Cheers, brother. Cheers, guys. Thanks for all the time.