The Duratus Mind - Gaz Banford

In a role reversal, in this episode Gaz is interviewed by Martin Yelling who is the co-host of 'Marathon Talk', the UK's most listened to running podcast.  Martin is a former athlete himself representing England and Great Britain at a number of running and dual sport disciplines on the European and world stage.  He has also competed at the big one, the Kona Ironman World Championships.  He is married to the Olympic marathoner and Commonwealth medalist, Liz Yelling - so between them there's not much they don't know about endurance training, high performance mindset and how to coach people to success in their chosen sporting disciplines.   

Martin and Gaz talk combine their thoughts and talk about all things coping with stress, mindset, resilience, why challenge is important and what endurance really means.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Gaz Bamford is a former UK Special Forces Sergeant Major with well over twenty years operational experience. He left that role at the back end of twenty eighteen and is now a performance consultant and director of his own business Girata. He has in that business a real focus on mindset and resilience. And uh Gaz and I were introduced by a colleague at a charity event in 2019, I think, and I wanted to get him on the show. And it's especially relevant at the moment. So I hope you're going to enjoy the next half an hour or so of conversation. Welcome to Marathon Talk, Gaz.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Great to be here, Martin. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

It's good to have you on the show. We um we were talking a little bit before about um Strava, and it got me thinking like we had all this chat and I hadn't actually asked you if you run and you're on a running podcast. Is running something you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I know. It's something I've done a lot of, and it's something up until the last kind of I'd say year, I kind of tailed off. Um in the last few months I've got back into it. Nothing to do with us chatting again, but uh um I kind of missed it. Um so yeah, I've I've done lots of running my time, run a number of marathons, uh, and a number of other endurance events, shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

What's your favourite like endurance you know, we'll we'll talk a little bit about some of your your work experiences and some of the way in which those work experiences have led you know you you to be doing what what you're doing now, but in terms of endurance, if we just take that as a as a concept to start this to start this conversation, like endurance is endurance is such an amazing thing. Like, what's your personal relationship with endurance like?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Um me personally, I I love the mental challenge. I I've grown up absolutely thrown myself into sport, and uh I've never been particularly competent at any one sport, but I've just always enjoyed the mental challenge of putting myself in a in a in a contest and and seeing how a fair and the feedback I get from doing that. So I enjoy that, you know, and I'm somewhat in my early days of running. My my running when I first started running, I guess when I was a young Marine, we'd go out down in Plymouth and on the edge of Dartmoor. So runs were pretty cheeky to be fair. And I was never a particularly strong runner, but uh, we'd go out, and even before we left the front gate, my mind was talking to myself around you you're not as fast as everybody else, or um how are you gonna hang on? You're gonna look silly, you know, all these self-talk conversations um that were popping around. So I and I think I've learned to learn to quite enjoy that and that challenge personally. I I was challenged very recently to uh um very simple kind of um one of the lots of one of the or one of the lots of Instagram challenges going around, but quite recently to do a uh a weighted run, which is something I've not done for many years now. Um carrying about 10 or 10 or 12 kilos, and um um were you only carrying 10 or 12 kilos with you? I know, I know, I know, I know. That's just round the middle. That's just round the middle now.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

You're only half-packing stuff these days, Gary.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

But uh, I really enjoyed even before I went out, I thought I'm gonna struggle on this. And so endurance for me is that ability to live with this conversation with yourself, and um, I've I've come to understand that I'm okay at it. I'm I'm not gonna profess to be the world's greatest. And I love chatting around this. This is again why we've got talking again, Martin, because uh I love talking about this, and I know you're someone that's got a lot of experience about this, and um I'm interested in that too. And um, but I love those conversations and that personal challenge is that's one of the things I I thrive on, really.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

I mean, you spent a lot of your working life engaged in in you know really complex problems and solution finding and and and challenging situations. We'll come on to those in the context of of coronavirus and lockdown and all the kind of stuff that we're we're engaged in as a as a country at the moment. But you know, taking that first experience of you describing yourself there as a young Marine heading off around Dartmoor off for a run, kind of looking around thinking, I'm already not the fastest, we've only just left the game. Like I mean, you're clearly a very different man now. So it's what you do for a living now is to show people how to overcome those fears and and uncertainties. You know, what is it that uh in your in your working life shaped that young marine through to now I'm doing this for my job, you know, some 26 years later, however long it might be, however long it is.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yep, yep. So a great question. So um I recently got asked very similar. I was doing a uh a presentation with England football coaches, and um they I I gave my sort of spiel, my talk, and uh a couple of the coaches came up and had a chat afterwards, and one of the guys said, he goes, I know you said that it's it's the same as taking a penalty in a cup final. I know you said it's the same as travelling um to the away game. He said, I know you said that. He said, but it's not, is it? It's not the same as um stepping out the back of an aircraft at night on a parachute jump, it's not the same as going towards a place where you know there's people that would love to do some harm to you. You know, it's not the same, really, is it? And I said, Well, it's because you're not seeing the journey, you're not seeing this the tiny little incremental steps that I've made to being that person stood on the tail ramp or being the person approaching the area where things are going to be really dangerous for the my my team and the people around me, but um what you're not seeing is those journeys, and and it doesn't start with the that that end situation, it starts with that young Marine. It actually for me started, I think, much younger. I've I've thought about this quite a lot, Martin. And um, I was uh I was a young youngest child. So my my sister's four years older than me almost, and um, and growing up she beat me at everything. That's that's I was the younger sibling, and and I was very comfortable facing the challenge and being prepared to lose. That's what I had to do because that's what my life had um, and obviously I got to a certain point in my life and age that that wasn't the case, and I was a bit more competitive, but even I was always prepared to face that challenge. That that something I've reflected on is that again, my own I had my own motivations for wanting to join the military in the first place. I mean, I was really only after adventure. I'd finished college and studied, you know, what I'd studied at college, and um I'd only really was looking for adventure. I didn't want to um just go into that nine to five job, and um but the what what was interesting now I realize is that I'd chosen to join the Marines, which there's that this whether it's the Marines or the Parachute Regiment, I don't want to get into that slanging match, but it's the biggest it's the biggest challenge that I could see at that point, and for me that that now I realise is significant. There's lots of other organizations, and again, no slander, no slight on slander to any other uh military organization, but in my mind the biggest challenge was either the Marines or the Parachute Regiment, and I chose that challenge rather than a different one, and I was just prepared to put myself in that situation to find out more about myself.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

So it's that's an important distinction to make. So it's important in endurance sport is okay, well, what fires you up for personal adventure, you know, and and personal challenge, and for some people that is running a marathon, whereas for other people it's just not, you know. So although the qualities you might need to succeed in that field may be similar, um, you know, the application of those qualities in the field is quite different. So does that does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 8:47

So you might have it makes it makes perfect sense. Um I'm not completely convinced the application of those things is completely different. I I I I actually think they're a lot more similar than most people would believe because the on the face of it the diff the challenges look so different, and surely the the applications you know very different. But I I honestly don't think it is. A walk into a very dangerous situation in your mind, before you go, it's only in your mind, it's not dangerous until you get there, right? So you're you're left. I talk about um stresses in the gaps. It's when you're not in the moment and when you're preparing for something or you're thinking it, you've got the the freedom to think about something. So that's where stress happens, and your ability to deal with that stress in that gap, in that thinking time. Maybe it's the helicopter flight, maybe it's the walk to the dangerous area, maybe it's stood on the tail ramp before you jump off of an aircraft at night, you know. But it's it's that those moments where, you know, your your world and experiences and the people listening, I'm sure, you know, when they're a few miles in, checking their data on their Garmin, uh, a little plug for you there. Uh checking the data on their on their on their Garmin and they're seeing that their heart rate's a little bit too high and and that's not where it should be, then the mind starts talking, doesn't it? And the how how you apply that, the techniques and the or some people will be uh conscious of them.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I'm sure people are unconscious of them, but give me some specific examples because I mean specific kind of case examples of when because what I'm hearing is and I I hear this a lot with people I might work with in a coaching context. You know, my own my wife used to be a marathon runner, and for many years she had she had fear of uh a performance situation. So the performance situation in her case you know is is stepping into an Olympic stadium full of 90,000 people. You know, a millionaire. You know, of course in in your world um you know that arena i i is is is differ was was different, right? But what I'm hearing is you learned and Liz learned to a certain extent to know how to turn it on and off when it really mattered. So when you got to the point of of engagement, whether that's an Olympic final or you know, out in the field somewhere, uh you know what to do and you're a master of delivering it.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

You use the word master. Um but uh but so for me um I think it's self-awareness. So again, I I was always as a I I I competed at maybe five or six sports at quite a high level, never anything above county level, don't get me wrong, but growing up I competed at a lot of sports. Um and I can remember the feelings going towards the challenge, the butterflies in the stomach that I'm sure Liz is familiar with, and yourself familiar with, and most people listening to are familiar with. But I I always remember being able to connect that to know that's happening because I'm about to enter a competition, and entering that competition, that contest, is why I'm here, is it not? And that understanding of well, if I again don't get me wrong, as a 14-year-old guy, I wasn't thinking this, but this is all reflection. But I understand now that um having that self-awareness of well, this is your body preparing yourself for um again. I I studied physiology, I studied psychology at school and college, and so I I've got an interest in this anyway. But understanding that that self-regulation, the need for self-regulation, your body is making these adjustments for this competition. And uh I I loved it, I thrived in it, and I I still now love a competition. I'm not, I don't think I'm overcompetitive. Ask my family, maybe they'd say otherwise. But um, I I do like challenging myself and I get fulfillment from that. And because it's again, I don't know if you know or if you some of your listeners do or don't know, but the word contest, the root of contest is to testify to yourself. It's not about um everybody else. You learn more about yourself if you put yourself in a competition or in a contest, and that's what I love, and I think I've always loved that the challenges that I've faced in my career. Yes, I've been surrounded by a high-performance team doing on the face of it to most people, absolute lunacy. Um, and they can't imagine ever doing that. But really, there's a lot of selfish challenges personally that I was putting myself in. And I actually at the time really enjoyed that personal challenge because the unknown is something that I've always like, okay, this is this is something I want to uncover about myself. Does that make sense? So that self-awareness, that the self-regulation of the of your physiology is something I've always had an interest in.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So kind of knowing what you do you you do now and how that's been informed by by your career, you know, going into the unknown and not being fearful of it. So, you know, to put that into context for people who are listening, for them, for for those listeners, that might be the first time they've ever done a marathon. So they're not sure what it looks like, and they're gonna put themselves on the line and they know it's gonna hurt a bit at 20, but they're kind of confident that the training's put them in a good place to do it. So for somebody else, it might be you know rinsing themselves inside out to go under three hours for the first time, you know, they're probably turning it on, so they're spending a lot of time in the cave just hurting. Yeah, and and like uh what is it that uh that you uh given your skills and experience can uh offer to that context? Like give us some practical examples.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I think I think my my experiences have taught me that the ability for this absolutely beautifully designed machine of ours, our body, um, to deal with suffering is so much greater than what we think it is. And so every single time our fear narrative will win with us worrying about what's about to happen. The the little challenge I did on Instagram a few days ago carrying 10 or 12 kilos, it was I had a little thought in my mind going, oh, this is gonna hurt a little bit too much. That's that's always going to be there, but this body will just keep suffering um way beyond what we think it will. And and that's what I've learned. And I think my experience is again, people would go, it's it's got to be different. But when when you have completed a number of challenges, and I'm sure I know it's the same with um nobody tries to break three hours the very first time, I'm sure they go and run a marathon for no your average novice, if you like. Um, they they just want to complete it, right? They maybe have got a loose goal, but the person that's gonna crush themselves to get sub three, or maybe even quicker, they've done some distance running before, and there's a progression there of belief, self-belief. And again, it comes back to self. And so I've been in situations physically, mentally, um, for many, again, this is many years, I guess. Um, but the willingness to put myself there for the the my belief in what I was doing at the time, but also the team around me and the performance of that, the the safety and security of the people around me that I was working alongside was powerful. So I would suffer anything to keep that safe. And you know, I was really bought into um the reason why I was doing it. And that for me is the difference. You know, unless you've got a strong enough why, um you're never going to put yourself into that cave as you as you describe it, because there's no reason for you to be there. And that's why most people don't. That's why most people can't get their heads around this kind of personal challenge because they just haven't got a strong enough reason to do it. But but the people that are, you know, prepared to just take themselves. And I know Liz was somebody that's you know, she's spoken about it before about how the ability to put themselves in that hurt locker for such a long length of time, um, that's that's not normal. That's not normal.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Everyone's like that, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah, exactly. It's just not normal. And I've got to remember we we are kind of probably not outliers, I don't like that word, but we're there's there's we're definitely off the off the average peak, if that makes sense, as opposed to outliers, you know. So um it's just that willingness to suffer. Uh and once you've got the context of actually this is wow, I've suffered through that and I'm okay out the other end. Next time it's not as bad.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

And so next time, yeah, as a stressful situation. So let's apply that in a couple of uh uh different ways. Firstly, like in a uh in an athletic way. So you know, you uh you would have been presented uh with many stressful situations and I imagine sometimes you'd have known detail, considerable detail about the stressful situation before entering it, and at other times things would have been um uncertain and and more um enabled kind of a uh a different response to have taken place to perhaps the one that was planned. Yeah, I can't. And that happens in in our uh in our athletic careers as as well. You know, we're we we're planning for a stressful situation, then we try and do something, it becomes more stressful because it hasn't quite worked out as we thought it would. Like what guidance do you can can you like what light can you shed on on that for us?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah, so yeah, uh hopefully a a little bit. So um all the all those what you've just described is very normal when somebody's taking themselves outside of their comfort zone. People love to talk about everyone knows that growth happens outside their comfort zone these days, don't they? They just don't recognize when they're outside their comfort zone because they hate being there, they go, Oh, this is horrible, don't like it here. Then afterwards they go, Yeah, that didn't work. Well, no, no, that was you outside your comfort zone, and that's where you need to get to understand and learn this. So we talk a lot about um um VUCA environments. Your um um question was around you know, going into situations that have been we knew were going to potentially be high stress or or not, and sometimes we knew more about that than than than not. We we would always plan against the worst situation. So I think the Stoics called it pre-mortems. We'd always have a um, again, I don't particularly like the word enemy, but they that's that's what we described it as. The um the enemy's most likely course of action was always spoken about. So what we thought the people of where we were going to go, what we thought they were most likely to do. And we'd make a plan around what we thought they would most likely do. Now, that was always going to be dangerous. That was always going to, we wouldn't be asked to go there if it wasn't. Um, but so it was always a fair amount of potential stress there, but we we we'd planned against it as best we could. Now, there was always also the enemy's most dangerous course of action. So, what the most dangerous thing we could imagine could happen, we would plan against that as well. So we would come up with a plan for every situation against what the most dangerous thing we can imagine. So, naturally, every situation we went into, yes, those situations could possibly happen because, but you've given them thought. So, you've done everything you can, controllables versus uncontrollables, you've done everything you can in your mind and as a team communicated what you would do. Well, when this happens, this is what we're gonna do. And it doesn't half lower the stress sort of threshold because you're more prepared. And and again, I don't want to say this and for you to think it just can't be as simple as it, or people to be listening to think it can't be as simple as that. No, first time you do it, you you'll hear. The first time you do it, you'll hear. Well, the most dangerous thing that could happen is this, and then and the whole way to where you're going, you're worrying about that. Don't get me wrong. You know, it's not like you automatically talk about it, think about it, plan against it, and then there's no fear involved. Absolutely not. But as you become more experienced, being outside of your comfort zone, having thought about it, and things up to that point go into plan, um, you become more experienced and therefore have a greater capacity to deal with different levels of stress. You know, I'm sure you could sit in the audience of a team sort of orders process before we went out on a particular thing, uh, and you would go, there's no way I'm going, because you've not had the little steps to get to where the guys and the teams were. That's the same with any high performance team. Cannonball anybody into a high performance team that they're not used to working amongst in an environment they're not used to working amongst, then it's going to be stressful. And that, in my mind, is exactly where we are right now. We've all been cannonballed into this situation.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, I think that's a really yeah, I re that's a really nice link into you know what I wanted to talk about next. Like, because what you've what you're describing is something We talk about lots in preparing for elite sporting competitions, but also you know, anyone who's preparing to step out of something that they haven't done before and do it for the first time, perhaps you know, um, in a in an endurance sport po uh perspective. So you know, it's exposure. Like I'm a big fan of of uh uh overcoming that uh fear and anxiety through personal experience. So you can read about it or you can talk to other people about it, sure. You know, you can plan it. But when you put yourself in it, then you really learn what it feels like to reduce that you know, that um that that that anxiety and the stress and the uncertainty that you might have. So in not wishing to sound really wrong, but like if I actually like pushing people beyond what they think they can do. Absolutely. So turning making a run or a bike ride, or if they're you know training for for an Iron Man, like I'll have a good go at seeing if I can break them.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, absolutely. I I get that completely right. I talk, I talk with people, uh there's a psychologist called De Bono who speaks about rivers of thinking. Have you heard of have you have you go on? So it talks about rivers of thinking. So the more ingrained your thinking, beliefs, etc., are on a particular subject, the deeper your river in your mind. So this is how the brain works. The brain works with making connections and thoughts, etc., or you know, what um neurons fired together, wired together, right? So the more you think a particular thing, you've got a a clearer channel, a more automatic, automated process of why you think like that. So you don't have to, fortunately, so you don't have to think, well, why do we all stick to the earth all the time? You're not thinking about that all the time. You know, you've got very ingrained beliefs as to why gravity works, right? It frees up your brain to think about other things. So but De Bono talks about well, this deep river of thinking, sometimes we're wrong. And often we're wrong actually, because we know very little, really. Um, we're just very blinkered and biased, and we live in a world of biases. Now, to pull you out of those biases, to pull you out of those rivers, you need somebody like yourself or like myself in my old, you know, you know, with different experiences, a coach, something you're accountable to, or somebody that can pull you out of that river of thinking and go, do you know what? Actually, what you thought, it's not quite right, because I know somebody that has done like um NIMS Purger, you know, again, someone knows nobody thought he could break all the uh the the the eight the the 14, 8,000 meter mountains in the time that he's done it. Nobody thought that because it's outside of their rivers of thinking, because it's previously taken people eight years, so surely six months ridiculous, right? Well, guess what? No, he did it, and because he he had a different context and he had a different perspective, and that's that's important. And today, you know, I I mentioned earlier, um kind of going off track, but about your question, you I mentioned like VUCA, and VUCA environments are what we we used to talk about an awful lot um in my former career. Um, and that's exactly what we're living now. So, VUCA, if people can Google it, it's there's a lot of research gone into it, but it talks about, I'm gonna test myself here now, but um volatility is the V, um U's uncertainty, um, C is complexity, and A is um ambiguity. So these this is exactly what we're living now. No, we're all the the volatility and the challenges out there for us now and the how quickly things are changing for us. Well, think three weeks ago, four weeks ago, things were changing incredibly quick. And so this causes us an awful lot amount of stress because as lot as much as we like to think we like to live outside of our comfort zone, none of us do. We all need certainty in our lives, and that's the one thing we haven't got right now, and so we're just not designed to tolerate too much uncertainty. We need focus, we need certainty. Now, certain people live in very um volatile and uncertain, ambiguous lives, but ultimately they get more um they get a better perspective of doing that, they get more used to living in those environments as they go, but take them out of something, put them in a classroom somewhere, and they go, Oh my word, this is what it's so far out of my comfort zone. And then again, um that's uncomfortable for them.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

So this this kind of situation we're dealing with at the moment, it's it's complicated for lots of people. Liz and I have again have had some discussions around two things you know, the uncertainty of where we are currently and uh where that's going, more particularly around where that's going. Without trying to overanalyse or over-predict uh a an uncertain future, it's kind of like scenario planning. You know, we're thinking through okay, well, what if this happens and what if that happens? Um and then uh the day-to-day around the uncertainty of the you know, lockdown requirements, for example. You know, and and uh actually we were quite chuckling a little bit to ourselves in in not to take anything from the seriousness of the situation for you know the UK and global population, but uh you know when when uh we were both uh professional athletes, we would uh intentionally and purposefully put ourselves into lockdown. Absolutely. You know, it was it's like, well, I don't want to I don't want exposure to this world because I need protection from it in order to do my job effectively.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Uh exactly, that and that's again I can relate to that completely, Martin. My my former career was spent in small teams, in isolation, at reach from limited supplies, um, um with a dangerous environment outside. That that is exactly what we used to put ourselves in and to have to deal with, and it became our normal as such. Now, again, this is this situation stressful for me, like the next person. I'm not, I don't want to much like you, you know, be misconstrued to thinking this isn't serious. It absolutely is, and you know, because I'm trying to think of it, I think it was it Seneca that said we suffer more in imagination than reality. You know, our imaginations naturally run wild.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, well, that's about my station, that is.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

I think I think it was, but it's because because our our imaginations run wild when we we have these ambiguous and uncertain um and complex problems, and you know, this is this is human nature, this isn't human nature to worry.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

But how do you how so how did you and how do you deal with that? So for some people, they will genuinely be sat at home at the moment listening to this or running or whatever they're doing, you know, really quite anxious and worried about about the situation because uh, you know, potentially they'll they'll have had very limited exposure to dealing with this level of uncertainty, as many of us have in this context. Like, what advice do you give them to say, okay, this is my take, and here's some practical advice from my learning to help you deal with this right now?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, um, great question. And and for different people it's gonna mean different things, but I um help people and coach people through um self-skills, really. So mindset resilience it means different things to different people, but it's ultimately control over yourself. And um, we're all in this together, aren't we, really? Um, this situation, and there's things that are in our control, and in my mind, there's things that are out of our control. Now, the natural default setting is to drift towards these uncontrollable things to worry about, um, and we will, and it's that appreciation and understanding that you are going to keep drifting towards these um uncontrollables because again, it's a protection feature in our minds to to to protect ourselves. We need to understand all these problems. We we we will always find the threats before we um find the friendly. So um try not to if you if that having the self-awareness to recognize I'm I'm thinking about things out of my control here, what other things I can control? Um now there's lots of things we can control. Um, and again, again, there's lots of different things we can talk about. Again, self-awareness, self-regulation would be another thing, you know, having that self-awareness, like I'm starting to panic, I'm starting to worry. Um, there's there's very well-researched performance psychology um skills that you can work on. Breathing being the primary one, visualization, self-talk, um, creating stress drains for yourself, uh, stress drains, you know, like I use the illustration of um neurosurgeons um doing a doing a brain operation, they always put a brain drain in first. It's controllable so that if something goes wrong, then they've got a way to reduce that stress, that pressure. Well, we can do the same. What are the things we can do in our environments right now? Not selfishly, I might add, not to make selfish decisions because in time you're going to regret those, but um to make your environment more comfortable for you and controllable. And like for the current example, I would always steer people towards would be to limit their information intake because at the minute it's just going crazy with the news. You know, uh again, another illustration I've used in the past recently um is around um car accidents. There's something there's well over a million people die every year via a car accident, not over 3,000 people a day, but we're still getting a car, and there's only ever a white line separating us, but we just don't get the daily news feeds about how many people are dying um every single day by a car accident. We just wouldn't drive anywhere if we did, you know, and so we've got to really limit where we're getting our news and our information from. Yes, we need to listen to the advice and we need to seek the reliable, trusted sources, but our phones will keep bleeping all day, won't they? And our friends will keep Susan down the road will keep telling us all day about the negative things that she's heard. Um, and that's normal, and and just understand that that is controllable. You know, we don't have to listen to all of that, we don't have to read all of that. For example, you know, my old world, there's we could worry about these things and being overrun in in isolated parts of the world, but we had to put things in place that meant if we got a sense that that was about to happen, there's something we could do about it. And that's the s it's the same as us now.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Um that's a really nice way of thinking about it. In in so like just to to recapture something of what you've just said, um like to help people deal with uncertainty, you said right, one of the things to do is to think about the things that you can control. So that might be uncertainty around the current coronavirus pandemic. It might be, you know, planning to do who knows when a marathon is going to be on next, or an endurance event, you know. Uh but it's like, okay, I'm gonna focus on the things I can can control. And then importantly, uh you said a couple of other um really uh meaningful things. You said to know when you are thinking about things that are not in your control.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

You know, so that that's really important. I I can think about things I can control, but I can also know when I am thinking about the things that are that are not in my control. And then I think the third really important thing that you said which which comes off of that is I then have self-awareness of what triggers my panic. Yes. And finally, I know what to do with that awareness. Absolutely. I've got action.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Absolutely. Uh and I think the important point, Martin, is for people to understand this doesn't happen easily. To sit there and you have to deeply think about these things and give it the time that it deserves so that you know, on reflection, you realize I was probably overreacting there, and to ensure that that doesn't happen again, because we're all normal, you know, the normal thing is to panic. So don't be too hard on yourself when you're starting to drift with your fears and to think of all the negative things that could happen, because that's normal. It's normal to think like that, and so to understand that you're not being over the top, but just understand that there's a you need to find your anchors that bring you back to the the the main the useful stuff, the controllable stuff that you can really take control of.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

So let me give let me ask you for and we're gonna we're gonna have to wrap up, I think, in the next five minutes or so, guys. But let me let me ask you for a specific example of that. Take yourself back to uh a time in your life when you felt despite all your training when you felt uh particularly fearful and potentially the most out of control you've ever been. Because there will be lots of people feeling that at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yep. Okay, so uh I've got a fairly useful, I think, um, example. So I I'd spent about five or six years in the Marines. I'd volunteered to join special forces um just after the Twin Towers attack. Um and so I joined UK Special Forces and um pretty much immediately went out on one operation um for a six-month period of time. Um whilst that was happening, um a few colleagues of mine um were be were shot and maimed um out in Afghanistan. Now I'd never been to Afghanistan personally. This was 2003. I'd never been to um Afghanistan personally. So I started to hear things about, I'd never even really heard about Afghanistan too much, um, and started to hear things about where friends, colleagues of mine were and the sorts of stories, Susan down the road stories, that I was were coming back, and it was started to play on my mind a little bit. And so I came back from where I was, um, and then a future deployment, my next deployment, if you like, was out to Afghanistan for the first time. And um, I'd been in my organization a few years then, and I'd I'd because of injury been asked to step up to be uh one of the team leaders of one of the small teams, um, and imposter syndrome. Why was I being chosen? All these things playing a part. Again, uh a very close friend of mine, uh a guy called Mike Jones, um, um, had been had very well in short, he'd he'd run off the back of a helicopter and been and been shot and killed. And um instantly, and all he had done is ran off the back of a helicopter. Now, this is something we'd been training for for weeks, months. This is something I knew I was going to have to do on a daily, nightly basis. Um, and what's in my control there? Well, very little, actually. Um, that's something that would be out of my control, but still tragic, and something that affected me. So the first time that I went out there, I do remember um the first time I had to go out there on this my first mission, if you like, all the fears, all the stories, all the bad news that I'd been hearing about friends and colleagues that had been shot in Maine, my thoughts about what had happened to Mike, um, all these things were running around in my mind. The the flight to the place where we were going was about an hour and a half, two hours. So all that time, my brain was um almost out of control with all these things. And when I ran off the back of the helicopter, thankfully, um nothing bad happened. Um, but my performance was awful. Um, and after the event, um, I came back. And because I cared so much about the type the team, my teammates, there was a few people that laughed and joked, just poked fun about my performance, but it really struck a chord with me. And I knew myself that my performance wasn't good. It was the first time you this is the same as a boxer stepping into the ring for the first time. And my I knew my performance wasn't good. Um, various things had happened where um, and I can reflect on it now and be honest and say, I can complete this is completely understandable why this happened, but it doesn't change the fact it happened. And then what I could have done is check out, I could have gone, like, you know, I'm never gonna go and face that kind of challenge again. And you know, there's been no shame in that, I think. My immediate peers would have probably ribbed me forever. But if if I look at it now 10, 20 years later, I can go without that. Isn't actually something to be ashamed of. But but I didn't do that, and I the next night we had to face that a similar challenge again, then the next week with a similar challenge, and and so just that willingness to put yourself up into that challenge, um, and just understand that the worst case scenario that you can imagine very, very rarely, very rarely happens. And well, that's good because most of the time everything's fine, but if we think back, uh our minds are gonna absolutely love to give us all of the horror stories that we can imagine if we let it, if we allow our minds to drift and to start thinking about these things. Now, again, there's very, very um comprehensive and well-researched performance psychology skills that you can learn to regulate your thinking, regulate your physiology to help you take control of the stress you are naturally feeling in these situations, whether they're competitions, whether they're worrying about the current situation now, or whether you're taking more, you've got a slightly more dangerous vocation, let's say. But um that's that's the reality. There's things you can do, there's things in your control, and there's things out of your control. So I always just chose to focus on the controllables.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

And for some people right now, you know, sitting at home, that's what you could do, where you could run, what time you go running, you know, absolutely they don't have to be they don't have to be big, life-changing uh you know, uh scenarios or decisions. Sometimes the smallest and simplest things that exist right in front of your eyes, you know, in your day-to-day, when you gather control of those things around you, then it's almost like you can protect against the things that are out of your control. It's like getting your house in order, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Absolutely, that is it in a nutshell. That's the great great illustration, Martin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Now I've got one final question for you. Oh we ask the same we ask everybody we interview the same question. I'm afraid it's a running one. Good. Right? Six months, perfect training. I know you like to do things well, and uh and you're gonna bang out one single mile absolutely as fast as you possibly can.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

What time are you gonna do it in?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

So I'm a man who's used to working in the metric system kilometers, but I am I am I am I let you one run 1.6k if you want. Yeah, no, so uh so one mile. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. So um I'd I'd I'm a I'm I'm eight kilos heavier than I used to be.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

You're doing it, come on. You've you're you're you're trying to frame your answer. Come on, you know better.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Perfect preparation. I'd love to run a five minute, five and a half minute mark. Let's say five five twenty.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Five twenty?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Like to the second.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

I'm no runner, Martin. I'm gonna go with five twenty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

I'm just seeing if you're gonna shift. Go from 520. Gonna see if you're gonna budget at the last minute. Everyone loves a little bit of creep.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

It's only gonna creep one way, it's gonna go a little bit faster until you keep nudging me. But uh stop nudging me. But yeah, no, I'll go with 520.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Uh you're in good hands actually at 520. So we've asked hundreds of people this same question um over the years. Um, Andy Badley and Mo Farrah top uh the marathon talk listener table with their you're not surprisingly with their 348. Uh so you're not you're not quite there. Heiley Gabriel Slassi down at 355. Uh I'm just gonna scroll down the page a bit. 520 brings you in with Olympic bronze medalist Kelly Sutherton. Um yeah, she wouldn't take any prisoners. Ed Caesar, who who uh writes for Wired and who followed Elliot Kipchoge doing his breaking two. Um so yeah, one of the world's top ultra runners. It'd be a good interesting interview, Carl Meltzer, otherwise known as Speed Goat. Yeah, spent spent a lot of time in the mountains running very fast on his own, Carl. Yeah, um be a good interview. So he also said uh 520. So there you go. How about that?

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Martin, I I am a tractor, not a Ferrari. I'll go forever, but uh I won't go fast.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

I'd say you're shifting. I'd say, I'd say, like, where would I be? Like, I don't know. I I last time I ran a mile flat out, uh Gaz, I did 526. So I think we'd have a good uh we'd have a bit of a set two, which would be fun.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

I I'd blow a gasket right now, but we're talking six months perfect practice, so uh yeah, I'll give myself that.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Alright. Uh listen, it's really good to to chat to you. Thanks uh thanks for having me, Mark, for coming on the show. Really enjoyed it. Um point us to your website.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Uh DuraTus UK, so D-U-R-A-T-U-S-U-K dot com or Duraitus Gaz on uh Duratus underscore gaz on Instagram. Then uh yeah, it'd be great to uh uh get some contacts, it'd be good.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah, we'll put a shout out uh on the show, we'll point people to your social and and your website and also your podcast. I must admit, I really enjoy I've listened to a couple of interviews on your podcast. I'm really enjoying it. Yeah, thank you. Um it's called the uh durator's mind podcast. Yeah, that's right. Um you've had a couple of really interesting ones. Doc Dr. Fergus Conley recently, yeah, human performing performance thought leader. Uh you've had you know one or two with a few former colleagues which have which have been interesting as well. So yeah, great stuff, really good.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Thanks for that, Martin. Thanks, appreciate the shout out. Uh, but it's been it's been great speaking to you. It there's a there's a lot we've spoken about this before. There's a lot of common ground in the way we think, and uh we we are a bit weird, but uh everyone's a bit weird, really, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Cheers, guys. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

All right, thanks, mate.