The Duratus Mind - Ray Carole - Author, Adventurer and SAS Sergeant

The Duratus Mind - A podcast exploring all things mindset and motivation.  Gaz, a former Special Forces Sergeant Major but now performance consultant, opens up his network to try and understand what motivates some to risk so much, why some are so driven, and what it really takes to achieve success in any sector.

This episode Gaz speaks to an old friend Ray Carole. Ray is a classic British ambassador who is authentic, unique and extremely diversified as he pushes the boundaries in life.

From Royal Marine to SAS Sergeant, North Pole to the South Pole Solo, Author, Mentor and fearless entrepreneur. Crafting a real-life story with no regrets has challenged his impulses and self-belief to enter unknowns. Ray’s life trajectory is good, bad and ugly. A genuine guy who believes in proving yourself right and wrong in life by simply daring to take the leap.

Follow Ray @ www.raycarole.com 
or instagram @raycaroleauthor 
His most recent book 'The Clinic' can be brought here: https://www.troubador.co.uk/bookshop/crime-and-thrillers/the-clinic/  

Follow Gaz at Duratus UK (www.DuratusUK.com) 
instagram at Duratus_Gaz
Twitter at Duratus_UK
Facebook at Duratus UK

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:36

All right then. So the Geratus Mind Podcast, episode 28. Um, I think every single episode I say I'm excited, and and I am excited because I'm I'm lucky that I get to pick and choose who I want to speak to on the whole. Um, and today I'm tapping into uh a good old friend, someone I've known as the longest as anyone that I've spoken to. Um, you know, a lot of history and memories go back, so I'm sure it will open some of those. So is it Ray Carroll or is it Chris Foote? What is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Uh yeah, yeah, good opening question, guys, really, because it's it's confused a lot of people, and uh it's pretty good to sort of put this one to bed pretty fast. So um about three or four years ago when I was going to write uh my first novel, The Clinic, I was gonna write under the pseudonym, remain in the shadows like a good old X um SAS guy does, um, and just do writing really in screenplay. What happened sort of next was I've sort of because I'm so passionate about personal development, I needed to be in front of the camera and to have that connection. But there's so many seeds were sewn with the Ray Carroll name. I thought, you know, I'll just keep it really because I'm you know I'm taking writing seriously. Um, it is a pen name. Also, the names created by my granddad's first name and my mum's first name, who are both uh not with us anymore. So you've got quite a strong emotional connection there as well. So um, and also it's it's it's a business effectively Ray Carroll as well. So when I get the Ray Carroll hat on, we know what that's all about as opposed to the sort of Chris Foot side. So to people who know you, it's a little bit, well, what's he why why is he calling himself Ray Carroll and he's still on, you know, he's still filming himself. Um if I was to do it all again, possibly it would be it would just be Chris Foot. But the original plan, um, as we know, no plan survives first contact um with scrutiny or your mates.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

You you've just you've just reminded me. Do you remember the movie Over the Top with Sylvester Stallone? And he had it was an arm wrestling movie. They don't make the exactly, they don't make many arm wrestling movies, but that's the one I remember.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Inspirational, yeah. It was a massive part of my life. I feel like another pillars, I feel like uh putting the cap on Ray Carroll. So I excuse me if I if I uh flip between the two. Uh what would you prefer to be called? And I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

I'll say for this one, guys. Yeah, I mean, just call us Ray. If I was trying to keep it a secret, it's the worst kept secret in the world, and everyone knows I can't keep a secret. Um, you know, yeah, that's why that's why I left, you know. So uh yeah, we'll just roll with this. Roll with Ray, and we we'll see where it takes us.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

We uh which is why you're gonna be such a good guest, because uh, like he says, you can't keep a secret. So there's a there's there's some people that will know you as your as Chris, and so there's some people that know you as uh as Ray Carroll. So I reckon it's as we do with most people, it's probably best just um jumping straight in. And if you don't mind, try and kind of snapshot your career as an intro up to this point of what you've seen and done, and then we'll deeper dive on each one of those sections, then if you're happy to.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah, sure. Um, it's so in a nutshell, and you just sort of nailed it there, really, is if I've sort of chatting to someone or a stranger, um, I've always sort of got the same sort of line in videos and that, and it's pretty much, you know, yeah, I left school with a black eye in someone else's coat. Um, initially went to join the Royal Marines. Um, there was a waiting list back then in sort of 1995. So, like good sort of lads do, I went to Germany with Uncle Barry um on the building sites in Leipzig. Um, was there as a six, 17-year-old boy. I was on like £800 a week, freeway split. Um, thinking, do I actually really need to go back and join the Royal Marines? Um, so a stern phone call from a dad to my relatives, like, you know, you get him back now, he's got to join the Marines. So I joined the Marines. Um, obviously successfully um passed after 30 weeks, and that's where I sort of met yourselves in uh 4.2 commando. Uh done about three years there, but always had my eye on the main goal, and that was to go SF. Um, again, initially wanted to go SVS, and we can certainly dive into that later because that's a really sort of strong subject to talk about um with that. Ended up uh getting going into SAS, um, spent nearly a decade there, um very busy period, as per review, uh gaz from 2000 to 2009. So we're all the theatres, all the main campaign of you know, Iraq, Afghanistan, obviously a lot of work's going on in the Balkans and other areas, obviously, which we won't mention. So a very uh high intensity period. I think you know that's probably a golden period, really, in the sort of the modern day special forces sort of era, because that was a 10 years of absolute um high intensity, um, is if you've experienced 31. Uh, I was a sergeant, I'll probably the youngest sergeant then. I was absolutely flying um in just hit a crossroads, really. Um, I sort of missed out on an early promotion. I'd have to wait another two years until I sort of took on a sort of a major command position. And impulse just drove me, and that's a big theme. And again, we cross it later. And it was no, there's more to life, let's get out there. You're 31. Um, you know, didn't really know what I want to do, or something to do with coaching, something to do with the mind. Uh so uh left. Um uh again, I did regret it. There's certain ways you can talk about regret, and we talk about them later. Um, again, you you go from being um, you have a certain opinion of yourself and the people you work with, and you are there is that sort of not self-importance, but you are somebody. Um, you can't get away from that. You are somebody, you are important. Significant. You are absolutely, you know, that that's that's why it's called the special air service, a special boat service. You are special. Um, so you go from sort of hero to zero. Um, again, that's a journey I'm very, very familiar with um over the last decade. Um, so um went into consultancy initially. Um, got offered a fantastic job of a world leading consultancy. Um, I was due to start in sort of three months' time. Uh, the the economic downturn happened, they were laying off people, so that sort of went to went to pot. Okay, there's no job there. Um, sort of backed off coaching, did what most guys did from our backgrounds, become the sort of the billionaires, bad carrier where you're sort of you know coordinating uh sort of travel management of high net worth, ultra-high net worth individuals. Um, never got involved in A-Listers, uh, too much hassle. So sort of bummed around uh the world, really. Um, you know, on the back of 300 million pounds, super yachts, etc., on these beautiful parts of the world, some dangerous parts as well. And um, it was I was itching, I missed the void. So got into expeditions, um, got involved in a race to the magnetic north pole in the high Arctic. Um, got up there, got a taste for that. Um, did that with a girl called Leanne, and again, we would talk about this more. So some pivotal sort of points in there. Realised, even though you might be this sort of you know, all singing sort of SAS sergeant, it was only that where I realized that because of the uh hideous conditions there that and me sort of leading the way that no, I can actually do stuff on my own now. I've I've I've got that confidence, actual self-belief. Um, which again to some people might think, well, you know, you must be able to take on the world, you know, you're you know, this SAS sergeant and blah, blah, blah. And and it's not, you need these incremental sort of tick-offs along the way to say, no, actually, I am confident, I've got that belief now. I can really enter the unknown on my own. So shortly after, tried being the first person to walk 14 and uh 30 odd miles to South Pole and back. Um, no one had ever done that before. Um, so headed down to Antarctica. Um, because of a three-week window delay, um, when I hit the edge, uh, got dropped off on the edge. I only had 64 days. So I still went as planned um with all the four 160 sort of kilograms in weight, um, 715 miles to the pole, made that in 41 days. Uh, had the option to turn around, but only had 23 days to do it. So I sort of aborted there. Um, and that was sort of my initial Antarctic dream, or that was sort of without going into the ego. I sort of definitely wanted some sort of legacy there, and to be that first person to really push beyond any previous boundaries and get that in the bag. Um, it meant a lot to me. And it was sort of for me, I felt it's just it was just stripped away because as we talk about, it's the externals. I've got no control over the fact that I was 21 days late starting the expedition. It's in in again with definitely come back to um this later about when I started the exped because there's some really sort of sort of good lessons um sort of um there from the start of it. Um finished all that. Um couldn't raise the money um subsequent years to sort of take it on sort of full time. Uh ended up going to Dubai to, in all honesty, pay off all the debt that I'd um um created through the expeditions. Um so it was minus sort of 40 to plus 40. Um, spent uh about four years out there um basically being an advisor stroke consultant for their armed forces. Um and as a very good friend of ours, Marty, um, sort of told me when I was working out there with him, he sort of says, you know, every time you sneeze out here, you know, you've got to check that you haven't got your brain in your hand. And and obviously what he means by that is, you know, out there, because we were so good at our job, we were only using 5% brain power. So, you know, you're just stagnating. So I then, after sort of like the honeymoon period of having an 18 sort of months working party and sort of hard in Dubai, I realized I just wasn't achieving anything, I was failing in life again. Um, I'm very hard on myself, and it was like, what are you doing? You've got so much potential. It wasn't a case of you're better than this or these lot, you know, you're 33, 34 now. Come on, you you know, let's start digging, digging it out again. So um evolved into but went back into personal development and uh initially wanted to write sort of a non-fiction book inspired by the expedition, but given lots of um sort of mindset tips, you know, mental toughness and all the other things. Started writing that, um, just didn't do anything for me. And then I just came up with the idea about hey, let's let's let's let's actually write. I like writing. I've always written, I was looking at being a journalist when I left um the military. So yeah, just started fleeting around with a few ideas, flirting with the whole thing. And it just took off then. And that was my mission. Then I want to write my first novel, one of three books. Um, while I'm doing that, um, I'm at home on leave and um from Dubai, and I'm sort of sat in a pub, um, might become an ever-recurring theme. I don't know. I reckon so. I reckon so. So, and again, it was simple. I sort of it's something that we all experience from being in the military, um, or shift workers, for example. You you're sort of home on leave and you might have been away for three or four months. And you know, if you're not married or single, you really just want to sort of get on the lash for a week, have a good blowout and at random time. So I'm sort of in a pub on a Tuesday afternoon, and you're sort of texting people, calling people, you know, you're coming out for a beer, and it's like, no, no, no. So no one was available, or literally, I was just not as popular as I thought, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

This is an awkward conversation, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

So I then came up with an idea called mydayoff.com where people would go on a website, um, they press any day that they're free now or in the future, and straight away it shows you who else is free and available with similar interests on the same days as you, whether it's friends or people you don't know. So almost like a dating app, but based around free time and interest. So first phase, probably spent about 10 grand, got nowhere, forgot about it for years. But then when I was in Dubai, um, everyone was on Tinder. I don't know if you've you probably haven't heard about this dating. Grinder uh Grinder, yeah, yeah. Um I didn't think Boots was going to come into this conversation so early. So yeah, so I reconnected with a few of the old uh 4-2 commando boys on Grindr. Um, so yeah, they're all doing well. Um, so at the same time as a book, um, applications were big in the marketplace. And again, it's just oh god, I've remembered I had a really good idea a long time ago. And what do you do? Is this again a recurring theme? Uh I know nothing about development, I know nothing about applications, I know nothing. So, what have I got to do? I've just got to go on Google, okay, and then just find a developer, speak to a developer, give them the whole concept, and that's it. Did that. Um, and then next thing you know, I'm now creating a small tech company, and then I'm I'm into development. Um, so those two sort of projects uh get to a certain point where I then decide I'm gonna leave Dubai. Uh um again, turn my back on a very comfortable lifestyle. I'm talking a lifestyle which is a six-figure uh sum, tax-free. Um, it's never the job's never gonna end effectively. Um, yeah, it's comfortable. Am I pushing myself? No, we've got to take the leap again. And that means leaving all that behind and pursuing these full-time. So did that. Uh, technology took a lot longer, got to a certain point, um, ready to launch. Um, then the appetite for investment was definitely gone. It needed millions, you just weren't gonna get it. Um, then we sort of reinvented the technology to a point where we're at now with a completely different platform, which we've wrote, which we've already got a contract for now, which is like a software as a service, uh, which is all to do with digitalizing amateur sports. So it's a huge project, but pretty much live going live as we speak once the COVID um calms down. Um, because obviously rugby and all other sports are not obviously not active at the amateur level that we want it to be. Um, in this year, yeah, it was 2021. Yeah, let's get the clinic out there. It's been hanging around for a number of years. Um, I've been delayed along the lines, I've been I've been involved in TV deals, um, which delayed things, and so many other sort of opportunities where you you sort of you tell people this sort of fiction and story for a TV series, and they're sort of, well, you know, what's it sort of based on? And you're sort of loosely without giving away any sort of big secrets, you sort of tell them loosely the real story, and then they're like, Well, we don't want the fiction anymore, we want that story, and you're like, that story's not for sale. Um, and it never would be, you know, and I would sort of never ever trade nor attempt to trade in um any sort of um missions or things inspired by. So that sort of went to sort of went to pot, really. So, you know, any lessons for any other people who are looking to flog a TV series based on fiction, don't actually tell them what it's inspired by because they just want the uh the real story. So um all that sort of got us to here now, really. So the Ray Carroll brand is sort of really sort of officially launched with a book. Um, I got um I've sort of created a Who Who Thinks win series, which is personal developments, journals, uh, tutorials or for personal development. That's more as a vocation. Uh, and just to top it off, um, I'm sort of involved in property development now, and that's uh another when we talk about sort of really taking the leap, and there's there's no such thing as experts in life. I've sort of got together with a couple of builder mates who've been building for 30 years during uh sort of like the COVID, um, just to sort of keep fit, really. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was probably about two stone uh heavier before uh what I am now. Um so just started helping mucking in with them, really. Uh again, just keep your mind healthy, keep active. And as I'm looking at stuff, I'm asking more and more questions about you know, why not why aren't you developing? Why aren't you doing your own stuff? Why don't you build your? And they're like, Well, we've never sort of, and I just started poking around like I normally do, really. Um, like anything, um, you start poking around, um, things do sort of drop on your table, opportunities come knocking. So I set up a development company, and just by chance, um, I've managed to come across two amazing plots, which now I've got the option now to put planning in. So I've just put planning in for 20 to build 25 apartments as well in Bournemouth. So um, yeah, um, that's where we are. Yeah, exactly. And and that's where we are in sort of life now. And you've already sort of picked up on there's a theme of sort of opportunist.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

There's definitely a theme of there's a there's a there's a ton of things, Chris. There's a uh sorry, Ray, there's uh there's a ton of stuff that I uh that I'm gonna end up um it's Ray, mate. I've turned the cat around it's Ray. That'll help. That'll help. So uh there's a ton of stuff that I want to get into. Um, and just right at the end there, you mentioned about um, you know, labouring and you you recognize the opportunity and almost you question why the people that have been doing it for so long haven't taken that next step. And and that's the common thread through all of this that I'm hearing. I've heard it a ton of times from very similar sort of people, similar attributes and characteristics, that a lot of people don't take that step because it's scary, right? It's actually, well, you're you're taking ownership for a whole lot more accountability. So we're gonna we're gonna check out that that theme really and work out where that came from. So rewinding it all the way to the the beginning, you know, I know our our career path for me started right at the beginning of my kind of Royal Marine career, but what inspired you and why did why did you join the Royal Marines? What what was the challenge? Why was why did you grab such a big challenge?

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Yeah, um it's certainly never where I thought it was going to be. I mean, um we're not gonna go into the game, but childhood-wise, it was no hard knocks there at all. You know, there's no broken families or anything like that in a superb childhood, um, in the mainly in the country. It was really when I moved from the country. So I was in the country of sport billy. I mean, I want to be a tennis coach, guys. You know, I mean, I knew you know it was just the right to type shorts, mate. It was, you know, you know, this idea of you know teaching these uh these lovely you know sort of Ford Housewife tennis players. But um joking aside, so um because I was a sport and I liked that one so much, and that was when I was 13, but I was played most sports at the county level. So people used to call me county boys. I was like cross-country, I was um, you know, I was I was tennis, I was like badminton. I don't like to admit that, but uh actually you know I played badminton a wheelchair. Um all those sort of things, and then um so I was looking at that, and then we moved down to uh during the sort of 89, 90 recession, we moved down to Bournemouth. And it wasn't until I'd moved down to Bournemouth, joined a new school, started playing rugby as my main sport, sort of getting physically really active again. And it was my dad, in all honesty. Uh, dad was only in the REF for um a short period of time, um two or three years, and he always reminds me of you know, his his one-year deployment in Malta, you know, back in uh the 60s or whatever, um, was the way I should go because it was just you know, it was pretty much the way dad sold it to me. It was like you join the forces, you create it's for you get to see the world. Um in you know, it's ideal for you, Sam. So initially, I was looking at these army brochures I sent off for, and I've never really heard of the Marines. And anyway, he's like, No, no, you need to the Royal Marines are the best sort of thing. So he got me this the challenge as you just said then. It was the challenge Royal Marines. And the irony of that is I don't know if you can remember, you've got these three sort of grisly um sort of knuckle dragging square jawed blokes on the front of this uh mag uh the potion, I don't remember it. And as it transpires, the guy on the left is obviously Steve, who we know, um, who we're on very close friends with at the moment. That's right, actually.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

I've never pieced that, they've never pieced that together. I know the magazine you're talking about, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah, I mean, you're not gonna, you know, yeah, the head is the head, isn't it? Is it's that head. Um yeah, so um in even more coincident, coincidental, and this is it's just amazing how sort of life works, really, isn't it? So I've got this this this challenge raw marines, that's me. I hooked lining sinker, I want some of that. You know, you've got these real hard-looking guys, all you know, they've got the face paint on, and they're they're looking incredible. One of them has got a massive head. Steve. Um, and that that was it then. I just um started the sort of the process of the what was the process at the time? There was no process, I was only 14. Um talking about Briar 20 later, so I'm reading that about 14, 15. But that was it. I I was in, I was vested, um, started getting myself fitted in what I was, etc. And then I was at the Dorset um rugby trials. Um I used to play scrum half. So I'm playing scrum half, um, throwing out to a fly half guy during these trials. Um and in the end, myself and him get picked. Um, so we're in the minibus on the way back, we're just sort of chatting to each from a grammar school on so and so. And it happened to be Martin. Um, again, I won't mention surnames, but it's you know my best friend Martin. So I'm chatting to him, you know, what do you what do you want to do? Sort of thing. I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna join the Marines. And he's like, Well, I've got I've got three brothers in the Marines. I'm like, No, you haven't. Yes, like yeah, and that and then that evolved to me and him then having that partnership of both um wanting to join up together, even though we had three brothers, and then I've subsequently obviously one of his brothers is one of the guys on front of the magazine.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Serendipitous, love that. Um nice little story that is.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Yeah, so um, once the mine was made made up, um, me and him were inseparable. Um, everything was about you know joining the Royal Marines. Um, and we trained together, you know. I mean, it's this stuff's just cringe guy, uh stuff make me cringe. And no, I mean it's just I mean, I mean, I I mean one of my favorite films is um like Officer and a Gentleman years ago.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

When I used to sort of fake the sort of illness and take the day off school, etc. I was always used to put that on, and I I'm not sure what it was, whether it was his white uniform at the end, you know, lift lift lift that girl up and walking out. I don't know if it was that, it might have been that. Or um, it was it was just that sort of raw sort of insight into sort of like that that training they were going through. Um, but me and Martin and myself, yeah, we got to that point, and it's embarrassing because we're probably about 16 at the time. We're sort of down in the you know, the sort of waste ground doing circuits and that, and there's this massive mud puddle. We sort of both ran over to it and said, Yeah, you know, let's start doing we're like doing puddles, um, dress ups, you know, in the mud. So our faces all the way down, you know, thinking that yeah, this is like really cool. This is, you know, this is. What you know raw Marines do get deep down and dirty. Um, but a great training partner because and again we're both friends to this day and both very competitive, but um, both very fit. So everything we'd done then, the first fizz session we'd done together, it was like, Well, come on, then let's let's go on a run. Well, how far do you want to go? Well, how far do you run? Well, don't know, let's just go down the beach. So we're running down the beach and then we're sort of getting done about four or five miles, and we stop off and do like a mega circuit. Yeah, where do you want to go now?

SPEAKER_02 23:04

I'm I'm envisioning uh a uh Rocky Balbur and Apollo Creed now sprinting down the beach.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

It it it is in in and in now in front of you. I will tell you I am Rocky. If Martin's in the room now, then I I wouldn't be as forthcoming with that admission. But it was that. I mean, it was this everything you need, and we talk about accountability. When you've got someone who's got the same passion, idea in drive as what you have. I mean, we turned up just super fit, way too fit for Royal Marines training at the time. And that was just that accountability, really. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Um can I let me just interject there? Because uh I was chatting to uh uh a Navy SEAL a few weeks ago, and he was telling me this story about how when he decided, because again, from from CV Street, they can join the Navy SEALs, can't they? And um he said he when he decided he made that decision, right? I'm gonna become a Navy SEAL. He had this buddy and his buddy and his just exactly as you described, really, um, went off and just prepared themselves to the nth degree. And I was listening and I was going, I just can't relate to that because I had no idea, I had nowhere to go for information. I was completely winging it with this potential recruits course training brochure, and that was the kind of that I couldn't even get to that level because my background, although I was similar to you, very sporting, I wasn't county level, I was kind of way more average than that, and uh that's never recurrent female life.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Well, we'll see then, we'll see.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

We'll see how far we get into this, but uh, but then but then to you to have that level, like I completely agree with having that kind of accountability partner is is absolutely critical for high performance, and and you know, you know, you wouldn't have realized it at 15, 16, 17. You were doing it through just kind of it felt the right thing to do, you know, but doing the press ups, putting your face into the mud, that's what you'd seen in the magazine. So surely they do that, right? And this is this is where it gets quite funny because well, no, they don't do an awful lot of that, but this is what we think we need to do, and so that's what we do, and but you you have learned a lot through that. So no, mate, that's a that's a it's a funny story, and so marine training then. So you turned up too fit. I mean, I I've got a different story there. I struggled every single day. So, what what was marine training like for you? Because there's a few people that will be listening going, Well, you know, what's it really like?

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yeah, it's um I've mentioned before that I found in the uh since 30 weeks, um it was harder in respect to what special forces selection. And it's one of those, it's just a daunting um it really is. Um I just I remember this to this day, my dad dropping me off at sorcery train station, and I just in you know, I just felt it. I'm sure you have as as well, guys. Is like I just didn't want to get out of the car, I didn't want to get on the train. Um, I didn't I've done the PRC. I've had three three days down at Livingston, um, which was fine. Um realisation sort of hit you getting on that train that you know I'm now committing my hopefully my life, um, to sort of like you know, the the British sort of forces. Um so yeah, got there and you sort of sort of expect, you know, to be running around doing fizz and all that sort of stuff on day one, but it's sort of I do sort of tell people stories about you know, sort of day one is sort of all about your own hygiene. And I didn't expect that the day for you know the first day I'm sort of with a load of blokes um with sort of a towel around our waists, and we've got the instructor, you know, in front of us, and sort of he's naked now, he's sort of soaping up saying, Look, guys, um, a lot of you might not have showered or done communal showers. Um, this is what you do every day. Um, sort of get over the sort of fact that you know you're naked, etc. And everyone's obviously a little bit uneasy because it's just like you know, I'm joining the Raw Marines now. I've had like we were doing press ups and pull-ups, and you know, I've got this bloke in front of me who's naked, um, seems quite comfortable being naked as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Um, this is a rear curry theme for the Raw Marines now.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah, day one, this is sort of like, but he's just saying, Look, you know, you've got to sort of drop your egos, guys. Um, you know, you're gonna be the communal showers, and he says, Look, you know, oh, we're all different sizes, etc.

unknown 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

If you see Donaldson and he's got a you know a big piece, just say, Hey, nice cock, mate. You know, he goes, just get it out of your system, lads. It's you know, the ego's gone. Yeah, and this is sort of like day one, and you just sort of like, you know, did I read the photos?

SPEAKER_02 27:21

What have I done? What did I, you know, you know, right now, Ray, you're not helping raw marine recruitment right now. There's a lot of people listening going, uh, no, this isn't for me. I'm gonna join the paras.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yeah, so um that was the the initial two weeks, as we know, it's all about you know, sort of your hostman reskill design and really boring stuff. But it's yeah, I mean, it's a long time ago, and it's it's like anything in life, you know, you want all the action, you want all the good stuff straight away. But in order to get to that point, you've got to go through all the basics. And then as we know, in um, you know, in the Marines initial training, yeah, you've got your certain amount of you know, um, you know, exercise and then physical challenge in that, but then you're sort of really building on the sort of the the sort of the teamwork side where you have, you know, it's the first time you are with people you've got to look out for, you have got to help out. Um, you know, we can't have selfish individuals. Um, you're getting used to military life. Um, it's alien, you know, you're just a spotty little teenager. Um, and it just seems like you're just always sort of getting shouted at or you're always doing exercise. It's just you're consumed all the time. Um, so it was difficult, you know, really difficult. Um, in like anything, you just end up having a sense of humor. It's almost like the training team are the enemy. Um, and you know, the end of each day, obviously, you just sort of ridicule the sort of training team behind their back to sort of get through it. Um, and then gradually, week by week, you start grinding stuff down and you sort of then move into the stuff which you see in the magazines. You know, this is when you're sort of you're out on sort of Dartmoor, you've you know, you're firing your weapons, you're starting to learn about tactics, you're starting to sort of learn the trade. Um, in progressively, everything's getting harder. You know, you're carrying bigger loads, um, you're doing sort of the bottom field assault courses, um, all that, you're doing exercises, you're getting into the real, the real gritty part of soldiering, and in the it does surprise people. And as we know, it is extreme. Soldiering is is hard. It is absolutely hard. Um, you see, you know, what you see in the papers is sort of the end result, the effort that goes into being a really you know effective professional soldier. It's one, it's very boring, um, it's very hard. Um, so you sort of learn in that as well, and then you start to see people to sort of do drop up drop by the wayside, then they sort of realize that it's not as glossy as these magazines, actually. I didn't realize this exist, but but never ever doubted during during training. I uh um pretty much sort of got through first time. Um, stuck with a number, I think it's five or six of us, sort of all went through together and got to the end. Um, again, you're without even noticing it because generally you don't really notice these small changes over 30 weeks. You are you've gone from being a boy to effectively turning into this man, which is you know on front of that cover, you probably don't notice the changes you've under um undergone. But certainly when you're sort of passing out, um, I remember mine, you know, it was 13th of December 1996. Um, and that feeling of undergoing in succeeding in doing those 30 weeks training, and you know, I've you know, in but certain people get injured, etc. But to actually have the relief of doing it the first time around and not having to be in uh Limpsdon, um, is you know, you're just so glad about that. Um you've ended the sort of the torture of of being there for that long.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Same, I was just gonna say, you know, you you've you've into you've said about the kind of you don't recognize that change, and you know, I I completely agree with that, and so true every aspect of my life going forward, uh, and what I've been through, you don't recognize those daily incremental changes. But I've got an you know, I remember finishing raw marine training, not seeing some of my schoolmates that for the the best part of nine months, and they they saw me and one of the lads I still remind them of it, he was like uh flipping egg cats. What they had you on cow steroids, and I was like, and they hadn't, I'd put on about a stone because I've been eating Dutch's, which is a uh burger bar every single night with four or five meals a day, and I just ate and trained well for the first time in my life, and I didn't see the changes. I thought I was still well, I still was a skinny little teenager, but um, they'd seen this massive change, and I spoke a different language and I acted differently. I did a weird process, but we but I definitely got you know found massive change similar to you, and then I you know I'll kind of carry on where that I landed after my kind of exactly the same experience in 4-2 commander, which is where I first met you, and we were in the same company in the same troop. Um, and and genuinely, again, it was quite funny because of that experience that you'd had in Germany, you know, as experiences up to that point, it seems similar, but because that I don't know how long you spent in Germany with it a year or so. Um, that seemed to me like wow, this this lad's got amazing experience of working in a different country, you know, on the building site, and you know, and and again, we had our careers went the same same direction for about 18 months or so from that. I had a baptism of fire because the I don't know how much of this you remember, but we've we first thing we did is is went straight out to Norway. I was like literally day one of me being down there, uh, meeting the troop. Again, when you're trying to speak to people now about getting into getting into teams and how you kind of gel with teams and you make good teams work, you know. My experience is I'd just passed out of marine training, I landed in a team that had been together, spent some time, you'd been away six months previous. And so you you guys are all well cemented. And the new boys came in, me, Boots, and a few others. And uh, you know, we were the we were the new boys, we were the crows, and you know, we were treated as such, and that's you know, that is what it is. Um, but then a bit of a baptism of fire going to Norway. I mean, I don't know what it was like for you. For me, it was a pretty dark, difficult experience for lots of reasons. I mean, I can laugh about it now, yeah, but I but certainly that it was the the challenge was ramped up massively. So again, I don't know what you remember of that trip.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yeah, and um and it's classic as well, isn't it? It's past the more Marines training, you know, uh 30 weeks, you know, you're you're in the top of the tree, and now you've joined a unit, you're at the bottom again. But not only that, there was this huge thing about Norways, wasn't there? In the Marines, it's sort of like uh you haven't done a Norway yet, you know, you're not a real Marine until you've done a Norway. So this whole picture of Norway was just horrific, wasn't it? It was like, yeah, you're gonna be skiing with nine stone you know houses on your back, and you know, it's minus 40 every day. And yeah, it was it was quite intimidating. But um, yeah, Norway. I found um again, going back to the brochure, all I saw was these guys sort of telemarking, sort of down a sort of slope, big backpack on on them, you know, and the radio at the top, and it just looked amazing. Um, as we know, it was absolutely horrible. You know, I'm certainly not faulting the way military teach you how to ski, um but they certainly you're not uh wrapped up in cotton wall, that's for sure. And um, I know we've got a few good stories in remembering how to ski how to ski sort of military style, um, which pretty much crash or burn, really. Um, but yeah, again, it was it was just a hard soldier's hard, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

It's was that um was that the first time you'd been to sort of cold conditions like that? Because I'm just wondering whether that kind of sowed a seed for you, really, with regards to your exploration.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Yeah, I think Norway, I think before we went definitely appealed. It was in I think it appealed in the fact that it was um it was just that cold extreme environment. I think that's something that's always appealed to me. So I I always look forward to Norway. Um, I was very disappointed when I realized how crap I was at skiing, pretty much like you know, nine out of ten of us, um, which makes you know, clearly you can't really ski well, you know, in actually you know, soldiering in Norway, it's you know, it's not going to be a pleasant experience for sort of two or three months. It's we know during the week, you know, five days a week, we're sort of out in the field, aren't we? You know, with learning the sort of tactics and doing exercises. And again, it's just it's sort of this sort of sadistic way where that there's reward in the suffering all the time. Yes. Because it's you don't I I honestly, and I was I chat to people, you know, in the bars who we all know, and you sort of look back sometimes on this sort of amazing sort of career and you and you say, How much did it, how much of it did we actually enjoy? You know, because you you got this sort of 10% where it's you have these exhilarating moments, okay. Um, if you're chasing, you know, whatever it is, you get to you know, whatever the adopt the objective is of say finding hostages, or you know, you're on a target set of the military and you you know you sort of um manage to sort of crush that. Um it's all great and well, but I mean at the time it's just such hard work. Um, in but no one complains about it. We just know that's what you've got to do. Um so again, when you talk about say, say, Norway, it's sort of, you know, in during the week we're doing these really hard exercises, aren't we? Sort of getting back and we're sort of washing our kit, getting ready for sort of to go back out on a Monday, and then you know, but but it's that's that's not the end then. You know, Saturday morning, you're all getting put in for a ski by Afalon. So not only can none of us ski, you know, it's like the Sergeant Major's got this great idea. Well, I tell you what, you let's do a 20 kilometre or a 30 kilometre, you know, um yeah, exactly. And because, as you know, I mean, I think you I think when you guys turned up, I think you initially took over my team making duty. So I think I hadn't I then I then become not a crow, and then I sort of become one level sort of above you. But it was all everyone who got pinged or you know, told they've got to do something, it was always the new guys, wasn't it? Um, or the old sweats who'd probably done about a year more than us. They were just like, we don't need to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

It's you know, they became the bullies to be perfectly honest.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Makes me laugh because there's a lot of people right now. Um, it seems to be a bit of a trend. This this lock the first from the first lockdown, there's a lot of people doing like cold water immersion um as a as a thing, whether that's cold showers, and there's a lot of evidence out there that there's all kinds of benefits for it. But um, I've got some memories of coming back from we'd probably been in the field for five or six days in Norway. We've gone back to the accommodation where we were staying, first shower we've had in a week, and uh the showers, the hot water wasn't working, or we ran out of hot water, and so we were having a cold water immersion after living in Arctic conditions for about five or six days. And I think about it now, and I'm like, I can still remember how hideous an experience that was, but it definitely gives you a kind of different perspective of what of what tough is and what hard is. And I, you know, I know I've I've kind of used those experiences that's suffering is the word, yeah. Um, and it's suffering's never enjoyable, but you you learn from that and you then have got a new perspective, you've got a new context, haven't you? And I think that's the important stuff that you you can't get that context from having things easy. I sit in my lounge now. Welcome to my lounge, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Nice lounge.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Thanks very much, mate. You should see the mess over there. Um, um, but you know, we sit in our comfortable lounge now, and we you know, we think this you you quickly lose that perspective. So yeah, we'll fast forward a bit because again, you were we we ended up going to Northern Ireland together, was in the same sort of uh teams for that as well. So, again, lots of experience we could lean on, and a few individuals we could speak about having learned from. Probably won't, um, but then um I that's not you boots again, yeah. Um and so you you then uh for whatever reason thought, well, I'm gonna have a go at uh SAS or initially SBS selection. So again, that was inspiring to me because I'd thought I was way off the curve. I was, I thought I was way off the curve.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

Um yeah, it's I think it's not not like snooker players. I mean, it's but thinking ahead. So I think I think when I was um I had a you know, I had a fantastic training team. Um there's certain people that uh I you know there's a guy called Joe Gillespie, and um he was my um you know a bit of a raw Marines legend. Um an older guy, um, because he'd been around the bazaars and he was you know my instructor for foot. I had the pleasure of him instructing me for 30 weeks. And it halfway, I'd always remember this conversation. It's very strange, and uh, you know, um we sort of sit down, week 15, yeah, you're doing well, you know. He's not you know, he's a sort of cockney geezer, yeah. You know, foot, you're doing well, mate. And you know, you're an ox, you're an ox. And I was really massively fit then. I was sort of like um um breaking sort of certain records, um you were yearly wages. And he said to me, Yeah, you know, you're going Sass, you are you're going Sass. And I thought it was weird, why didn't he say SPS because we were in the Royal Marines? But he I always remember he said that. Now, I don't know whether it's just his play on words, um, but I was certainly as soon as I passed the Marines, I was already in my head, what's the next move? Okay, I want to go, and for me, it was the counting down the clock. It was, you know, I think back then it was like you've got to be a minimum of three years in a unit. Well, yeah, we know the stories, mate. It's like you've got done five Norways, four Northern Irelands, two jungles, yeah, two jungles. Um uh in all of that. And so I at the earliest opportunity put in, and we had an SBS obviously sergeant attached to our company at the time. So I approached him um again, still uh reeking of acne, um, etc. Um, in he's like, no, you you need more time. And I said, well, well, where when can I do it? When when? Well, let me, you know, um review it again, sort of thing. After after I think it was Northern Ireland, actually. Um, and then during um Ireland, that's when I do I sort of put my application form in. I mean, getting back to the idea, it was it was always in my head. So it was that it was there was no doubt that I was always going to go on SS, um, you know, special forces selection, always. And joint back then it was SBS, SBS. Um, and that was it. And even in my head, then I probably decided like most people do, if I don't pass, I'll probably have another go at it. And after that, I'm out of here. And that's not being disrespectful to the the Royal Marines, which is obviously an amazing organization. It was something in me said that you know, you're destined for there, the pinnacle of soldiering. You're, you know, let's talk about that triangle, you're destined for the top. Okay. And in my mind, the top to me was being uh special forces. Um, it wasn't gonna be good enough for me. And I'm saying this is not being condescending at all, it's it's getting to look into a mindset. Is you know, the Marines, it's not gonna be a career in the Marines is not gonna satisfy my needs. Uh, my needs, I know where I need to be. I'm gonna give it a couple of cracks and I'm out of here. Um, if that doesn't sort of sort of happen, and I'm sure I'll be on your sort of talk about initially how I sort of ended up going SAS.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Yeah, I'm I'm I I've got vague memories of that, mate. I've got vague memories of that. Yeah, so I mean on a briefing course, didn't you for Paul?

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah, so I mean it's it's it's one of those. I mean, I can sort of um courses changed over the years, and it is always, you know, my course was harder than yours, Gaz. Um, you know, Steve's course was about Steve Steve's course was harder than ours, uh, and that's the way it is. And um, as a Royal Marine uh years ago, you naturally joined you naturally put in for the special boat service. Um, even though it was joint selection, um, you that's where you went. Now, to get into um the SBS, you have to do, I think back it was a two-week course. I broke it 10 days, I think it's 10 days when I've possibly done it. And this was an aptitude course to see if you really got the mettle in order to start, you know, special forces selection. And I mean, and I look back at that course now, and uh, we can briefly touch on it. I meant that was definitely you know in an infringement on human rights, um, because uh I've never ever done anything as hideous as that in my life. And I don't, you know, I you you would have to put a million quid on the table now to even say that hey, fancy joining the lads next week in you know, having a crack at that again.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Um I I think it's worth just I think it's worth spending a bit of time on that because you know that that that period of time when it was a two-week briefing course, it it's it's legendary in just how tough it was. And the lads that suffered it, and still I actually think one two things really one, right? Who suffered that to actually get to go and do the job? Because it you were taught you were tortured in many ways, right? And yeah, and also how many people did we potentially lose again? I've overseen the courses that that we prepare people for now, and so how many people did we lose? Great people lose because it was it was too much BS, you know what I mean? I was too much sat in a water, freezing cold water, right? We're not going anywhere until five of you give up, and yeah, well, what if everyone's good enough, right? What where does that leave you? And so yeah, you know, it I know, explain that to me.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Yeah, um, I mean, it's it's is as we know people evolve, and we we talk about dinosaurs, and and again, it's uh I was before this podcast uh like 25 years ago in when we first joined and we're calling everyone dinosaurs, are them their mindset, they're there, yeah, they're all about the Falklands war, they you know they can't let the Falklands go. It's all in but go special force mentality, it was just madness. Um, it was a numbers game, and where it's now we know that you know you're being a big part of redressing that. It was a numbers game and it was ridiculous. I mean, how can you have 10 super fit guys um all geared up, all gonna say pass this test, and then the instructor's like, okay, get in the water, okay, we're not getting out until one who gives up. Or I remember doing just a simple thing like fire carries. But however, when you're told that you you're not stopping until someone gives up, it's you know, it's quite hard work. So things like that, it was just a really I mean, I would just say it was just a fuckest, a real foggish attitude in the objective of. That was to now we all like being part of something elite. So, in a show, when you're involved in that, when people drop by the wayside, that does um inspire you more because you want to be a part of an organization which is the minority. Um, you you you want that. So when people it's not when it's your friends now, people you care about are dropping by, but other people you don't really know. I mean, the more that drop out, the better. You know, and that's over the morale, whoover the morale, yeah. Exactly. I completely understand what the what it's trying to do. It is pretty, you know, it is that level of endurance, is that level of commitment. There's nothing technical about it, or you know, or you haven't got to be smart about it. It's look, we want people who can be put in these horrific conditions and they just keep going. I completely understood that. And um, but at to what level um do we need them to be this? And you may what I do try to quickly talk about what's in my head is um is clean and dirty pain. And I sort of sort of coined the phrase, it was um clean and dirty pain, and how you sort of explain um how, say, why super fit athletes don't get on in the Marines? Or we see certain programs, don't we, where you've got the the muscle bison or someone who's really fit might be a triathlete, and then soon you sort of put them into sort of a military sort of environment, um, how they don't perform that well. And in my head, um, what I sort of say is that dirty pain people can do clean pain, but not every clean pain person can do um dirty. And what I mean by that is you, me, or anyone who wants to can push their body to the absolute limit in a really controlled environment. So we just, you know, it's just to get let's get a lighter on, then let's get in the gym, whether on a treadmill bike, we can go to the limit of perceived exertion, collapse off the bike, um, get a massage or get an ice bath, um, eat right, do another train this session in the afternoon, go again. And obviously, these athletes are pushing themselves to their absolute limits in their absolute beasts. And that's what they do, yeah. And they're incredible athletes. Um, now I know that I could push myself to that limit all the time in that environment. Obviously, nowhere near them. And I'm gonna, you know, but but give it all my own. It's in that nice environment. Now, when you step into our environment, okay, which is the dirty pain. I meant, what am I talking about? I'm talking about, you know, an environment where yeah, you're outside, you've got the elements against you. It's either um freezing cold, it's hot, or it's wet, okay. Um, you there's always a calorific deficit. You're on rations, okay? You you're never getting what you need. You're always dehydrated. I meant whether you're in the jungle or other, you've always dehydrated, but you keep going. You've got massive kit on your back. You've got kit that doesn't really fit. Um, you've got all things are rubbing the time, your boots are, I mean, you've you've got blisters, you've got say the jungle for instance, insects, you've got infections, sleep. You're getting no sleep, you're sleeping on the ground or you're sleeping in a hammock. And every day you've got to keep going. You've got to keep going from A to B. Now, this is the juicy, sort of dirty pain. It's that grit which you know we all possess. So when you go through that, you know that doing the clean stuff is not easy, but it's pretty straightforward. And what I do like um watching is, you know, as much as I'm not a fan of sort of reality TV stars, um, is when you do see they actually do get sort of these Olympic type athletes and that having to have a little bit of dirty pain. And you can sort of just see how I'm amazed at how you know they fall short. Yeah, it's incredible to me. It's just like, wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

I love I love that, mate. There's a few things I want to say uh to that. So I when I used to oversee the preparing people for selection, and um I always used to say to the lads, don't come here like you're a Ferrari, don't come here like you're a high performance machine because you're gonna break, you need servicing, you need the best equipment, you need the best tires and all this. That's you're not gonna get that. We're looking for tractors, mate, that will just keep going. They can just you jump in it, they go, you don't need to wash it down. And it's not the perfect analogy because we do need to go fast. Yeah, um, I've I don't know, but but it worked for me and kind of painting a scene of what we're looking for. It's that clean and dirty pain. I love that. I've also more recently done some work with uh pro football teams, and uh one of the lads groups that I work with, um uh guy called Tom Rothwell, he uh top top lad owns a company called Wack 2, and uh we takes the uh pro football clubs up into the lake districts and just takes them outside their comfort zone. And mate, the stories that I've got of how these Ferraris, mate, these lads at the top of their game, they're going places, they'll be England shirts, etc. Put them at the bottom of a mountain and tell them they're going to the top of that mountain and it's chucking down, it's already blowing a hoolie down at the bottom, broken, mate. At the top, completely destroyed. And this is the hardest thing they've ever done in their life. But then coming down the other way is a granddad and grandma with their jam sandwiches, they've already been to the top, and you're like it's and it's that versus clean pain, mate. I do enjoy that's that's a good analogy. I like that. I'm gonna take that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

And it's and it's obviously with those guys, it's something out of their um comfort zone. In and in, I mean, when I talk about the the equaint, in in it was absolutely the hardest thing I've ever done, um, mentally and physically. And it's a diving as well, and it in again that I'll tell the diving because that obviously uh lets people know why I sort of went to the SAS. And um again, from having not been underwater, having not dived before, in a real short space of time, you've literally got to learn how to dive on um on uh oxygen on air initially. Obviously, you go in a pool and then you're um off down to a lake, and then once you've got that, you then go into you know uh you know a rebreather set, isn't it? You know, so um which is it for a novice diver is it's you know it's the it's crazy, it's absolutely crazy. And again, I was a 20-year-old, um classic example, same at school, you know, uh I sort of had questions, but never really put my hand up. Um it doesn't help. And again, we talk about uh mindset in that. I mean, I remember when um this the instructor got the the set on top of the table and didn't really help me in my mindset. He went, guys, this is a weapon, it will kill you if you don't use it properly. I just like and he's like, and it's the classic, it's sort of like, yeah, this can kill you from like just being two metres underwater, you know, if you don't do this and this and this. And I mean, yeah, it was, you know, so I prop, I probably didn't really it intimidate me a lot. I probably didn't understand fully um how to use it. And I just remember on my final dive, the sort of kilometer underwater, and underwater funny old thing, um at night time. Um in previous jobs, you've got a number of dives before this, and again, well, I sort of look back at this. I mean, to me, uh, every time I come up from a dive at the end, it was like I'd just undergone like a CIA waterboarding um interrogation because clearly I just wasn't getting the message, it's supposed to breathe in air, you know. I mean, I somehow was just doing a combination of sort of, you know, there's you know, water getting into my set in Austin, and it was just uncomfortable, you know, ears are bleeding. And but I just struggled through, kept struggling through, and then had to do the final night. I meant talk about how to uh control panic um underwater. Um, with uh we always describe that re-breather set, don't we? As like, you know, trying to breathe through like a Tesco's barrel, basically someone putting a bag on your head. And again, I didn't really understand the purge valve. I didn't realize I pressed that, it would give me a good. I was too scared. I didn't like things making these noises underwater. It was just like, you know, all in my head, this is the weapon, it's gonna kill me. I pressed the wrong button, I'm dead, you know, that sort of thinking. And I remember, and it under just pitch black, um, following that sort of that staline, whatever, whatever it's called, in the amount of times I was going into absolute um panic attack. And in my head, there was one thing in my head just saying, you you you can't come up, you've got to do this. If you don't do this, you're not gonna be, you know, you're not gonna pass go and then go on to the special forces selection. You've you know, you've got to hold on to that. But then meanwhile, I'm trying to understand, trying to regulate my breathing. Now, that's not particularly that that's quite hard to do, guys, isn't it? When you you've got a DV stuck in your mouth because all you want to do is rip everything off you.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

There's nothing there's nothing that instigates panic quicker on the planet than affecting people's air supply, breathing regulation. So, you know, that's so again, I can understand.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Yeah, in it to this day. I mean, I look back and I look at it. That is the probably scariest moment of my life. Now, some people would expect me to say, Oh, yeah, we're when you're getting shot at, or you, you know, you've done this, or jumping out of planes and all this sort of stuff. And I just I can remember it because I remember the amount of times I had to stop underwater, I'm stopping, um, just sort myself out and then really have a really harsh word with myself. And it was all down to, you know, how much do you want this? Are you actually is is that idea, that dream, that sort of purpose of what it is that strong enough? You know, you've come up against it now, you know. Um, are you are you cracking now? You know, is there cracks in your armor now? You could now you prepare to have to go through this. You know, clearly you don't like diving, but however, you either give up or you keep going. And it's that's when you go back to yourself. No, I've got to keep going, I've got to get to the end of this. Um, not if it kills me, but yeah, it's another thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

I mean, we're still talking about this as a briefing course, so it's only a two to equip with whether you've got the right minerals and you've made the right minerals and got the right stuff. And you know, for context, you know, this this was bad, this was all changed, and it was, you know, uh you know, I look as a as an instructor and a coach and a a kind of teacher in some ways. There's just so many examples of how not to do the right thing, and there's so many bad examples within that. So we'll we'll kind of part that, but just again for everyone else's context, friends of ours have for understanding that I'm thinking Harry D, yeah, um, you know, like unconscious underwater and you know, died underwater and had to be uh revived on the surface. It wasn't this wasn't unusual. This is how bad the training was and how risky this stuff was. It wasn't Chris not being able to manage his fear, it was because he was nearly drowning, you know. And that is the most that is the most scary thing that you can uh experience, whether you know your air supply turned off, you you die in a in a short amount of time. So, you know, it was, and it all changed. And unfortunate that I never had to suffer that. My briefing course was bookshi. So you took the easier option, Chris, and you joined the SAS.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, pretty much you got the got to the end of the course, and it was pretty much like look, you're you're a young, young lad, and then you've struggled through the diving. That is the options here. Um, we want you to come, you you either get more diving in, and we we've got you based down the pool, we get you on a load of diving courses, then we'll put you on a course in you know a year's time or whatever and go SPS. Or, but clearly, you know, um you do not like underwater chess. Um there is an option. We we're allowed two guys a year to actually try to go for Hereford. Um, so that was my choice. Um, I spoke to a lot of people um back then. It looked like the organizations were going to uh amalgamate, and there was definitely a paid difference in the two organizations, there was a workload difference. Um I I consult with a few people in the SPS. Um so one of the major things was they were a case of, in all honesty. If you hate diving, most of us do go up there, we'd all be one at some point. Um, and and then there's other little thing, which also is a little bit how ego creeps in as well. Um guys, um I was 20 years old, so pretty much approaching 21. I think it was 21 then actually, yeah. And it was you know the youngest. It was like that thing of you do this, you know, you'll be the youngest, you know. So there was that sort of little bit, and I probably would say that's ego of anything, is that you know you keep going. In long and short, like you said, I've just given a really bad explanation. Yeah, I bottled it, I bottled the SPS and um yeah, obviously committed to being to go in for SAS and um to quickly describe to the viewer. Um the course is exactly the same. The first six, seven months of the course is the same, whether you go in SPS or SAS. At the end of that sort of six, seven month period, the SAS guys get their nice bear A and join their squadrons and do a little bit more sort of um skills training. Uh the SPS guys uh then go on and do their boating and then a specialist dive skill. So, in effect, it's it's it's a never the selection sort of continues, doesn't it? Really, it's certainly powerful fail stuff um for you for you guys. Um so that is how I started being a Royal Marine, but being um an SAS candidate and knowing that I'd have to uh leave the the Navy and join the army if I was to finish and then and obviously you know say goodbye to all you great folk and become a yeah, become a Congo.

SPEAKER_02 57:11

Um to be fair, leaving the navy and joining the army was probably the one perk, uh one of the best perks of doing that, wasn't it? Really? Um uh we won't dig too deep on that one, but again, so then a career in uh in Hereford uh ensued uh ensued. And you know, again, we we we lost touch through that, you know, uh naturally again. But I I saw you, you won't know this, but I saw you, you'd gone off and you'd done that, and I was like, oh man, I mean I knew like again, Ray was it was fit for you know our our group. He was probably the you were probably the fittest person within our group. We used to go out for runs, and for those that don't know 4-2 commando, you know, you're on the fringes of Dartmoor, and every run outside of the the campfront gates is absolutely hideous because you're on these runs such as the roller coaster and hills like Cardiac Hill. Yeah, yeah, Killer Hill. You know, and we've got these these routes that you know they're really challenging. But Gray was uh one of the was one of the the strongest ones, and and so he went off and he had success. And I was like, well, just because Gray's done it doesn't mean that I can, um, because he's significantly fitter than me. And then a friend of ours, um Wes went off and did it. And I'm like, Well, I know I'm better than Wes, and he's gone and done it. So uh that was kind of my ticket to go self-belief, I can do this too. Um, but your career, I don't want to go into the I don't really want to dig into the details of your career in Hereford, but um, although people will be super interested in that, if they have you got any kind of things that you learned about yourself and and what I'm interested in, if you can kind of canter through that, but also you obviously you know you got to sergeant and you did 10 years, and that's amazing. But also, there's some people again. The common theme that we're going to hear about is you you were kind of at the pinnacle and you said, you know what, there's there's something else. I want to go do something else. You got you get bored easily, basically. Um so talk to me about that. What did you learn about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 59:08

I mean, first of all, um, whereas have you watched this? I always thought you were lots better than Gaza Long didn't we? Um let's get that. Um, so um, yeah, I mean, it again. I mean, I was only 22, so now I'm 22 years old, and now I'm joining the most iconic sort of special forces uh unit in the world. Um, and I joined B Squad. Were you the youngest ever? Is that I was the so at the time again, it whether there's debate, I don't know if we've got the record sheets, but at so in in 2000, I I joined uh obviously um the SES and I was the youngest serving member there. So I was the youngest in that unit then. Whether someone's been 21 and they've done it you know years previous.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Lloyd, but I thought Floyd Woodrow was someone that was super young. They were, but anyway, it's kind of it's one of those things, it's like people you know obscenely talk about confirmed kills as though there's some sort of record of this stuff, it's just ridiculous. But you know, so yeah, you were you were you were super young, and again, I didn't know my ass on my elbow at the time, so fair play to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

Yeah, it shows yeah. I mean, and I was the same. I turned up still not knowing my ass from the elbow, and I'm now I mean, I mean the thing is so you you you've you've you've done this whole sort of six-month, um, you know, six months, you know, SAS election course, and um, you know, again, you sort of change and you evolve. And and I remember then being a 22-year-old, and um, I've just got you know, as we know, it's there's no parades, there's no, you know, you get your bearer, you get the usual sort of um iconic words of it's gonna be easy it's gonna be harder to keep it than it was to earn it. Um as it's you use a sort of sort of modern sort of folklore stuff. Um the hardest thing I had to do on day one um was walk into my sergeant major's office. And obviously at this point, you've gone from the transition of you're not calling people sirs or their ranks and uh the doors always open, you don't put your feet together. So you you know you're just a sort of a gibbering wreck, really, aren't you? When you're sort of around these people. And the the first thing is a 22-year-old, bearing in mind I'm now a member of you know the SAS um iconic unit, I've got to go in and tell him something. And I'm sort of walking up to his door and I'm sort of then turning round because I just haven't got the bottle. I'm sort of day one, and I'm outside and I'm about to go in, and you sort of you want something like no, I'm just looking at the daily orders or something, you know, that it is, and then I thought and I then go in there and I'm like, Oh um, sir, don't call me sir, call me so inside. You know, stop putting your feet together as well, relax, chill out, sit down. What is it? I goes, Oh, I've just got something to tell you. He goes, Oh, yeah, well, it tells us anything. I go, I I haven't got a driving license. So I like to tell him then that you know I cannot drive, you know, and I'm now in this most iconic unit. And he's just looking at me thinking I've got a right joker in front of me here, and he's just laughing. And I'm like, No, no, I I I can drive, but I actually haven't got a license. You just he's like, You're serious, aren't you? I'm like, Yeah, I am. He's like, How is this possible? Just put your in Mobo tree, yeah, exactly. And then so he's like, you know, this is my this is my first five minutes with my now new overarching boss. And he picks up his phone and he's like an extension, and he's sort of like, yeah, right, Harry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, I've got one of the new lads in front of me, and uh, he hasn't got a driving license. And you can hear something in the other phone, and he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not joking. He hasn't got a driving license. Yeah, yeah, he's still in front of me now. Uh blah blah. Put the phone down. He went, right. He goes, um, Monday, or um, I think it's just a Friday, he goes, Monday, you're doing an intense driving course, and he goes, and we are off to the Balkans um um for an operational tour um on the Thursday. Um, so if you do not pass your test on, I think it's the Thursday morning that it's set up for um you're not going pretty much. Um, so I mean the the ironic thing about this, mate, it was it was during the fuel strike, so there's no cars on the road. So uh so I I I actually did all my driving uh instruction um when there was literally no cars on the road. Um then when it comes to the day of the race, the actual test, it was one of the actual military guys, and um he's sort of saying, Okay, right, um, you know, Ray, we're gonna um but basically basically read that number plate over there. Um he goes, right, I'm gonna go out the gates in a minute. And he goes, All you've got to do is pretty much not kill anyone, and you're gonna pass. Not really laughing. He goes, and and and by the way, he goes, We've got a shovel in the back if you do. And I sort of drove down the Kingsacre Avenue. Um, and did a the only move I had to do was like a three-point turn. And as we know, Kingsacre Avenue is you know, is about 30 metres wide. You know, you probably don't even need to do a three-point turn. Drove back to camp and it's like um, you know, and I was proficient, yeah, past it, and then that was me. I could, you know, jump in with the lads and then fly away on my first sort of tour with all these people.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Different in love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:55

Um, but yeah, so you in the new boy gain as we were, um, etc. And again, I was very conscious. I was only 22, I was still barely shaving, I was still spotty, uh, I was still very shy. Um, really sort of conscious, actually. I don't fit the mould here, is in I'm still sort of a boy. Um in it's just then you just find in your feet, keeping your head down. And no, in the biggest, it was just a culture shock, really, um, to me. Um, because we know there's a as a as a you know, some people act professional because they think it sort of looks professional. Um, and as you know, once you get into the sort of special forces, all the crap's cut away. Okay, we just do the job. Okay, we're not here to look good or to be seen to look good. We do what we need to do, we look the way we need to look. Um, um, so that was quite hard to take on how um it very not regimented at all, even with doing tactics and how people spoke to each other, the whole relationship between the rank structure, just all change. Yeah, and I mentioned in a couple of my videos, it definitely the the the the way the at the whole attitude, it was the attitude, which was the biggest thing I saw. Yeah, it was the attitude um about literally, as I said before, it's a success-driven organization. Um, success is a demand, it's not a request. Um, you've got to make it happen. And even on my first trips to the Balkans, um, sort of doing stuff in uh look looking after obviously wanted people from the previous war. Um, again, it was, you know, there was nothing was perfect. You know, you were doing stuff, you didn't have the right equipment, you didn't have the equipment, you didn't have the right intelligence. You know, there were so many unknown variables, but there was just no excuses. It was a case where we haven't got that, you know, we've got to get on with it. This is we need results, so you get on with it. Um, and and that's just a real running theme of the whole attitude. Um, that it is, you know, we are who we are, we're very proud of who we are. Um, a huge thing, as well, to sidetrack is is the motto, who dares wins. Now, to a lot of people, it's free, it's you know, it's free words, and it's a great motto. We know that it's world renowned. That sort of man, that that's a mantra, it's it's not just a motto, that's uh what the way you go about business. It's the way it's you know, it's it's again, it's sort of the no excuses, it's it's the risk, you know. That's you know, I'm sure over the years since the inception, you know, those free words have got people in a lot of trouble. Um now, touch wood, I think, at the special voices on the whole, have always been very, I say not lucky, but that there's never been like a MAGA sort of catastrophe where they've really stuck their necks out and sort of pushed it. Um, but again, it was it's getting into that way of thinking. Um in yeah, and then like anything you um learn from the school of high. Knocks, you initially make a lot of mistakes, a lot of expectations. Um, but it was just there was no bully culture in it at all. Um, we're all in it together. Um, definitely more mentorship from people grabbing hold of you um straight away and you're really trying to help you out. And straight away in that organization, you're giving leadership tasks a lot faster than what you would in the conventional organization. That people put pressure on you. I'm still a very shy person. Um, very shy. They seen that, ripped that out of me, really. It was like um there was no, you know, there was no sort of mentorship or pro coaching. It was okay, right? With you've got to do an estimate, and you've got to deliver this estimate to the whole of the squadron or to the you know to your troop. Um, just an exercise, but it just got you in front of everyone, you know, talking. And it's just little things like that to just build sort of build you up. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:25

Um I can relate to a lot of I can relate to a lot of that. I mean, you you obviously so again, 10 years, and it would have, I know, whistled, whistled by. Again, there's a whole story that I probably we don't need to go into, but you did transfer over back to Paul that you then transferred back and ended up kind of punching out.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:43

Yeah, absolutely. So again, it's um I've done over over three years or so, nearly four years of the obviously with B Squadron. Um, I've done it a number of um a very busy time. Again, we had the Afghans then, we had the the the Iraq that started opening up and all the other stuff. And again, geographically, I I always lived it called. Um it was literally, you know, it's it's a 10-minute ride away. I mean, I was living in Hereford in the SAS, and I knew everyone down there. And for me, it was sort of we got to that point of actually it's it's just obvious. Why don't you the only reason you didn't go to the SPS is because the dive-in now, actually the SPS allow non-divers now, even though I had done loads of diving now, so I was happy to go and do the the SPS dive course. So at the time I was like, okay, I want to transfer um down to the SPS. And you know, you can imagine um the sort of you know what that caused, you know. This is like you're gonna be hold on, this is like why you know, why do you want to transfer to um those lot? In and people who don't know, in it, there's a people call it a healthy rivalry, don't they, between the sort of the SAS and uh the SPS. And there is uh certainly the same mutual respect as there is for Marines in Paris. Um, but again, depending whether you're in a group or individuals in that, there there is a certain amount of, you know, I'd say sort of animosity. It's animosity. Um in all honesty, it's all competitive. Yeah, it is, and I think in any sort of harsh comments that are made between the two units, it's you know, sort of water off the duck's back, really. Um, so hella there's a lot of resistance at the time, you know, while you're going down there. And the people who just got my best interests that, yeah, and it geographically it made sense. It goes, look, I'm only to talk to 25 years old. I've got another say 15 years of my life. I'm born, you know, bred sort of down there. In the end, they were like, look, you know, you're a good lad, and we want what's best for you. So, you know, go down there in in sort of good luck, um, transfer to the SBS, which means transferring back to the Navy. And you know, and at any point, you know it's a mistake. Do not be afraid to pick up the phone and you know, come back here. You've you're a young guy, you got you know, the the world's your oyster. So uh that happened then. Went went down to pool. Uh, I think that was about the time you were sort of joining, wasn't it? Just before, yeah. Yeah, into and then the only reason that this story is really sort of worth telling, and I'll be I'll bring again and I'll I'll I'll go over it briefly because it it tells you a little bit about mindset again, and that's why we touch on it. I was pretty much sort of golden sort of bollocks, really, um, up at Hereford, mainly because I was young, you know. I'm not gonna I wasn't a super so it I was just to the fact that I was young. Um, and then I'd had a very, very successful, we'd done Afghans, we'd done uh a very successful initial Iraq campaign, a hell of a lot of experience gained over the last three or so years. Um then come down to the SPS and joined one of the squadrons there, and we went away on it on a trip. Um, and again, it just it just didn't with the whole the for me, it it just I just didn't, I said like what I've seen, it just wasn't the same as what I experienced before. At the time, uh one of the SPS squadrons had a very bad experience in Iraq. So that that was the actual of you um, which you might have felt when you first joined, the actual morale throughout throughout the sort of SBS was probably a little bit low. There was lots of people that uh uh sort of log aheads of each other about the performance in the in the desert. Um, and this sort of definitely affected me then because I was a guy who had a very successful tour in Iraq. I was then dealing with um a load of SPS folks I didn't know, some of them I did know. Um, and it was very much a tug-a-war match between what tactics we used to employ in um etc. based on experience, you know. And to me, it was a case where do you want to have tactics based on a good outcome that we've just had, or do you want tactics based on a bad outcome, which you've experienced? Um, and you know, it's obviously got worldwide media attention. Um so the toxic relationships formed. Um, I wasn't opinionated, I just wanted I was just used to a certain way of doing things, and I was very vocal in how I thought that wasn't happening um uh in just character personality clashes. Um, in it just came to a head, really. Um, where it was a case of, you know, it's almost like you know, your poison, Ray, is in like, you know, you're just not satisfied, you've got no respect for authority, and blah, blah, blah. And at the end of this trip in sort of you know, um, Botswana sort of got ostracised from sort of you know the squadron and sort of you know separated, and instead of going on RR in South Africa, I was sent home. And um, and again, I mean there's some funny stories, but I'm not I don't you know I'm not gonna incriminate anyone because it's you know it's it's it's it's it's in the past now. Um but what this next bit's interesting because you it's with me, you've got a 25-year-old who's got three years of great experience um in the SAS. Um, I'm sort of like on top of my game, sort of sort of fought as sort of golden bollocks up there. And my you know, my career is just going um massively rocketing. And now um I'm now in front of the commanding officer of the SBS um telling me that okay, I've been sort of insubordinate, I don't respect authority, um, this X, Y, and Z's happened, and you're getting put on a six-month warning. Um you know, I don't care what you've got to say about it, um, that's it. Um you know, I'm just sort of like, I just can't believe what's happened in the space of a six-week period. So I'm sort of say to the CEO, well, that that's fine. Um, I don't believe that you know, I deserve this, um, and I'll be putting in my notice to leave um, you know, tomorrow. And it's about up to you. And then that was it then. Um, but the fallout from all of this, and we know rumour control to everyone in the SBS, it was like this this there's this horrible little bloke from sort of terror food who's come down who is actually a boot neck, he is a marine, and the rumors get around, and it's just a layer of rumors. I think at one point, one of the rumors was I was stood on a stall in the bar shouting out, you know, the SBS are crap, you know, you know, it's just stuff like this. So I, in my own mind, I was absolutely hated by everyone in the SBS, bar a couple of sort of close friends. So my mind now was just consumed with absolute toxic thinking. I just um thought everyone hated me, everyone was out to get me. I then started doubting myself, um, you know, rerunning the whole trip over my mind. You know, actually, why don't you just say nothing? It's not in your nature to do that. And I was a broken man completely. It was just um I couldn't believe that in the space of two months um I'd gone from rocketing to now I'm now on the other side of the slope. I'm now pretty much a piece of crap. I'm this problem child in this particular organization. And you know, you're just yeah, six-month warning to people who what that means effectively is you're on probation. Um, you know, it's like that written warning. You you mess up again, and then you're out, you know, you're out of special forces, so it's huge pressure. Um, in literally a broken, a brave face, but a broken young man. Um, and on the flip side of that, it's you know, there was reassurance from close friends we talk about in that. And then I then got moved to another squadron, and I was still, I just wasn't up for it. I wanted to put my put my notice in to leave altogether. And it wasn't until then we talk about mentorship. I meant uh the guys that were there, my um bosses, sort of sat me down, and it was that reassurance which I needed from them. And it was like, look, we know what the story is, um, we know the characters involved. Um, look, it's a clean sheet here, and I really mean that. He says, We know we know people um who you work with up in Hereford, but we know you're a great lad, you're a good operator, okay. And you're having you've got a bit of a bad deal at the moment, but look, forget that. It's a fresh start here. You know, no, no one's got their eyes on you. Um, just take it slowly, you know, get back in your groove, get your confidence back, and you know, in in that sort of it, there's no judgment. And that was real strong leadership from from those people who didn't just jump on the bandwagon and saying that's a your problem child, you've got you've got an attitude, you've got in it, and it did. It was, you know, it was a massive the huge confidence loss initially. Everything to do with training, because I was just paranoid that everyone's sort of watching me and everyone wants me to mess up, you know. So it's almost like the you know, the the final thing to sort of get rid of me. And it's amazing how in the truth is no one's really thinking that. Hardly anyone, there'd be a couple of people who don't like you because you rubbed them up the wrong way. That's the alpha male environment we work in. Um, but it won't, it was just catastrophic thinking. Yeah, and it was all everything's imploding inside me. And actually, I never really until one of the lads, I think it's a JB or someone, actually sat me down and just give me perspective again, as opposed to I've never questioned that my thinking was wrong or anything. It was just, you know, and even when you're the times of you know a crisis, you phone your dad. I'm phoning my dad saying, Oh, you know, this is you know, in and you know, good old dad. Um, he's just like, son, you know, it you know, it's a little blip. He goes, the end of the day, he goes, You you you cannot hide or suppress quality. He goes, You know your quality, you get back to it, okay, and just do what you do. You can't suppress quality um and you'll be okay, sort of thing. And you're like, Cheers, dad. And then obviously, then slowly, slowly got back and met some cracking car, and just by luck, sorry, luck, I was then deployed um out to one of the theatres. And I was just involved in a you know, and you know, in obviously really can't talk about it much, but it was a really hairy, sort of close quarters incident um in an environment which you're you're very vulnerable in. And because I sort of took charge of that situation very well, got us out of a very peculiar, very dangerous situation. And we're talking a situation where we, as you know, it's that after it's gone, you sort of you checked yourself to make sure you haven't been shot because of the adrenaline. You sort of yeah, so it was a very, very close sort of scenario. And then by the time that got back, that you know, the way you sort of, you know, he conducted himself um during this and blah, blah, blah, it was, you know, your credibility, or it just gave me that massive boost I needed. It just needed, I was sort of like, oh, you know, it was it was almost like I'm back, you know. I know this is what I'm capable of. Other people were now speaking about yeah, oh yeah, yeah, dealt with that really well. And and I was sort of, you know, I was back again, and I sort of sat down in an auditorium, and then the CO in the RSM sat down next to me, and they were like, Oh, yeah, you know, uh, two weeks ago out there, amazing job, blah, blah, blah. And then that was sort of it then. I sort of managed to brush off all this horrific thoughts, this self-doubt about myself, about what other people thought about me. Um, and then the whole thing um with the SBS SAS and going back, so I actually did put my notice in to leave the military. Um, and it was like, you know, that was it. And then at the time, uh, the person in charge of me was actually an SAS officer, Danick Paul. And he was just like, Look, this is ridiculous. You've had about two months. Um, you know, you're saying goodbye to your career here by doing this. And I said, and you know, hey, you know, this is a current theme, I'm very stubborn. But when I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it. And what happened in the end? He's there was about 10 guys um doing an exchange, weren't they, for two years? He says, Look, if we just get you swapped onto the exchange, so what you are, you're an SAS bloke on a two-year posting um Zap Sit World of You and it means you can go back to, you know, not where you belong, but go back to you know, B squadron, and that's it, no hard feelings. But you can always stay if you want. Um, and that was it then. And yeah, and I absolutely amazing, fantastic time. Managed to get away on and do lots of things with you know, um, some great characters down there, and then all honesty, got to that sort of two-year point. It was it's up to you. Do you want to stay or do you want to stick to the plan and go back? Um, in all honesty, um, I probably should have just stayed down there, but again, I'd you know I made that decision um and I was gonna stick to it. Um, and then went went back after sort of two and a half years at pool. I I then obviously went back up to sort of back up to Hereford.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

I um I've got I've got some context to that because I like you said Chris, you when all that that happened, uh the sort of the bad situation uh incident happened for you anyway. It wasn't on a big bigger scale, it was uh completely irrelevant, it was just not significant at all. But to you it was massive. Yeah, and uh the whole the whole unit that I was joining was in a different place then to where it was probably two years later, to be fair, and and then it just continued to evolve because of the tempo of operations that was happening post-9-11. So post-9-11, these both these units are on this um uh kind of change program because of tempo. And I would say arguably Paul um went through even greater change because of the the influx and the the size of um that it needed to grow to to be able to uh work on par with uh the Hereford unit. So I mean it was a it was it was a weird odd time. I joined at a pretty low time for the unit. I mean that that quickly subsided, to be fair, after you left. And uh yeah, and uh and it was all it was all rosy from there on, but it's it is interesting, and again, I think what the important thing for people to listen to there is how most of this happens inside our own heads, whether it's real or not, whether it's tangible to others or not, you actually end up with these battles in your head and how you learn to deal with that, process it, cope with it. Well, sometimes it's just time and action that affects that and can affect that because thinking about it harder isn't going to do anything. You know, the great advice from your dad, then it's a it's a blip, you get you can't suppress quality. I love that. Cheers, dad. And you know, that's that's the that really is a kind of uh very much a kind of positive mindset to to throw into the mix, but mate, you you kind of we've we've we have talked a lot already, and we've not even scratched the surface. This was my fear. Um, so you you decided to punch out, you did end up um leaving Hereford. You got you got bored uh ultimately in in what some people would say is probably one of the most exciting jobs on the planet. But now um how and why?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:42

Yeah, again, you sort of um I mean, by that like all of us, we racked up loads of tours. There was no I wasn't sort of um there was nothing, it wasn't fear, or there wasn't sort of getting itchy feet and oh actually, is the next tour gonna be the the one that sort of got my name on it? Um again, we'd all um sort of lost certain friends um in the process. I think with with me, it was it all become, you know, once you get in that cycle, it doesn't matter what job you're in, it becomes very same, same, same, uh blah blah blah. And you sort of have that little sort of four years time, okay. What am I gonna be doing? I'm gonna be doing that tour, this tour. Um, again, the pivotal thing was the promotion. Uh, again, you've got a little bit of ego there because then you're sort of like going to be taken on, be promoted to staff sergeant, and then you've got your own troop, which is a is quite an iconic thing to do in any of the organizations. So that was definitely uh, you know, probably a 30% of it as well. My window had been missed for the what I wanted. Um, again, a little bit, not it wasn't you know, um, toys out the pram, that's for sure, but I wanted to keep going on that sort of this this rocket again. You know, sort of missed that too. So it means I've got to wait two years until I've got the train, effectively got my own little train set of my own sort of you know 16, 20 odd blokes. Um, again, I was just always thinking about other stuff, um things I wanted to do, sort of, you know, say in the real world. Um in again, it was it wasn't um, I thought about it quite a lot. Um, but then once I just, you know, I just decided that um, okay, I'm I'm it's a big decision to leave, you know, the most iconic probably a special forces unit in the world at only sort of 31. I mean, you know, you've still got at least another 10 years there. Is it's massive. Um, and I knew that once I left, I wouldn't come back. Um, lots of people do. The option's always open to you unless you're a knob. Um, so just to let you know, Gaz, the CEO did say that you know, if I wanted to come back, um, then you got no chance. Um, so so yeah, so it was a big decision. Um, but I think once I initially made it, I didn't mess around. I started, you know, looking at what I want to go into, the performance um psychology, uh, the the coaching, uh, the NLP. Initially, I was gonna go into be a PT, uh personal trainer. But then I once I made a decision, I switched fire to what I was gonna get into and just went at it 100%. And then to a point where you sort of couldn't get out fast enough, really. You made your mind up. I'll flip the switch. Um, you know, let's get on with life, really. Um, yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's that's it, yeah. Um, and I've you know, I still regret it to this day.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:21

Dry our eyes, mate. Yeah, um I mean, I mean, things change pretty quick. I mean, I again I lost track of time. I my life was super busy, and I don't actually think our paths apart from the odd uh time in a pub, uh maybe down the dancing moose or the cow or something like that around pool.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:36

Normally a funeral, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:38

Yeah, normally that's the reality of it. And and so our just lives with just trains moving, and then one time our paths, I was actually out on a run one morning, which was super rare, so that was a chance occurrence, and and our paths crossed in Paul Park, and 10 years have passed, but in that 10 years, you've done a ton of stuff. We're talking you know, North Pole, South Pole expeditions. You've lived out in Dubai, and you know, there's a lot of change there. So, again, talk a bit about the Arctic, both north and south expeditions. You know, what what was the what was the pull of something like that? And and what are the things that you've learned most about it?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:15

Yeah, um, again, um, so the pull was initially missing the void. I say I call it missing the void again, and I another good sort of not even a good one, it's what I do fear is is fear in normality. Yep. To me, it was I'm now I'm now normal again. Okay, I'm not important. Um, you sort of have to get over that. Yeah, and it's not, you know, I mean you do eventually get over it, but it was like it was always in me, right? Come on, you know, you you you know, you know you're sort of a physical machine when you want to be, um, you're missing something in life, you're not really happy. And then really, I sort of um I did actually the the the Arctic stuff come about from um, I think Fogo and um uh James Crack were doing a racing there looking for a third person. Yeah, I put in for that in the company. Obviously, saw the C V and they're just like, no chance, you know, you're not racing with them. But the company kept my details, said, Look, can you come back and help us with the preparation, etc.? Um, long and short, there was a there's a race called the Polar Challenge to the magnetic north pole. It's about it's four, about four to five hundred, but the race is about 400 miles, but in total, it's sort of 500 by the time you sort of make your way to the start line. Um, and I was just helping instruct people in Norway for the race. Um, and I was going to be just man a checkpoint for the race as well. Um, but I was in Africa um again, just look doing security, got a phone call from the owner of the company saying, look, um, one of the the competitors has dropped out. Um, there's a girl who hasn't got a partner now. Um, you know, do you want to do the race next month? Um, which is great because it was like a free 20 gram race. Um, so it was a nice freebie. Um downside was I wasn't really that fit. I was in um uh Mali at the time, um, which you know they absolutely beat him down. I was gonna be there for sort of two weeks, and I really had to sort of you know conjure up some sort of fitness um, you know, for it. So um initially um in the high Arctic, met met up with um um Leanne, who was me uh obviously my partner, pretty much on sort of like jumping on, you know, jumping on her gig, really. Um again, she was really serious, what to do it, it'd raise a lot of money to help for heroes, and we just said, okay, you know, let's really attack, let's let's go for this, you know, we're here to win, yeah. And she's like, Yeah, we'll be here to win. So um got involved in that. So that's just literally a couple of checkpoints every couple of hundred miles. Um, and you're pretty much just left to your in your in your twos, really, twos and I think as groups of threes. And and again, that was my first real sort of leadership task since I sort of left, you know, the regiment, really. And it was a case of look, you know, I'm not being sexist, but if we want to win this race, then I'll take most of the kit. Okay, you get behind, um, and I'll navigate and we just go for this. And she was more than happy in that, and she was more than capable of you know taking the boot.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:48

No doubt. She's happy with that. I'll take everything, you just stick the body in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reminds me of boots, actually, sort of. So, yeah, so I took that responsibility on it. And again, I mean, I'd only really had that art that one Norway that we had had, and I'd done my I think my MSI's course, this ski instructor's course. So I hadn't had a lot of loads of R2 experience. So again, I say, you know, I made a few mistakes where yeah, I got loads of frost knit where I shouldn't have got it because it was nice and cool, the wind was blowing lightly, the sun was out. Um thought, ah, this is this is all right.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:20

Loving it.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:21

Loving it, yeah. And um, yeah, and then later on that day, you know, it's my face started scabbing up. So now I've got this for the next two weeks. So in some photos, you know, I think I've got this frostbite, but no, it's just a real novice, stupid, stupid. Vanity mistake of you know taking your kit off and you know skiing along with my interview and just forgetting about the basics. Um so me and her um just um just just cracked on um and had some really you know some of the hardest days of my life um were on that expedition. I mean obviously I was pushing really hard, trail breaking through deep snow, um with her, and and again, in times I realised my leadership was quite bad because it was a white out condition. I was trail breaking, um blazing through, looking back, she's gone. Um, just like where's she gone? Lost her for about 30 minutes, and this is really you know critical you know, weather. It's it's the worst weather you know I've I've experienced in that climate. So then magically find her, and then I tie us together with what sort of rope we have. Um, and I and it was the weather was that bad, guys. It was the wind was so high and it was white out. My fear was we're not gonna be able to set the tent up. If we try and set the tent up, it's gonna rip or it's gonna fly away. You know, I just got hold of her and said, look, we've got to just push through this sort of the eye of the storm, so to speak. So I sort of did a you know, a really crap rousing speech.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

I wish we had it on Instagram. I wish we had it now.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:41

Yeah, uh, she was crying, you know, by the end of it, I was crying. Um, and it was no, we've got to go, you know, and we were like seventh or eighth in the race, I think it was. And we just kept going for like 14 hours. Um, by this point, we're tied on. I took her over a cliff as well. Um, because great leadership, mate. Yeah, it's you know, yeah, one in and all in, I go, you go. Um, so took her over a cliff. Luckily, it was sort of um that I sort of use as the reference, it was probably two or three meters of a sort of bit of free fall and then landed on a load of soft snow. But again, for that initial second, it was like, oh my god, you know, that's it. You know, you know, I'm in free fall now. So yeah, sort of got to the the the end of that race, and it was during those those really bad times where I was white out, I was navigating trail. Yeah, it was a dirty pain. That was when I thought of it, actually. It was that, yeah, I'm gonna call this dirty pain if I make it through this. And that just gave me the confidence which I needed. It was that belief that, yeah, okay, I'm in white out conditions, I'm navigating fine. Yeah, it doesn't matter, it's a GPS, you know. Um, it doesn't matter. There's still a certain bit of map reading with all the sort of the crags and sort of some of the sort of mountain sort of systems. And it just gave me that warm, fuzzy feeling that I can do this on my own. Um, and I am gonna do sort of maybe do this on my own. And got to the end of that race. Um, and it was then I just started sort of cultivating the on the flight back. Um, we stopped at Ottawa, um, and I was in the Departures land with a guy called Comrade Dickinson, who's sort of a bit of a renowned explorer, polar adventurer. And I said to him, I goes, you know, how many years do you think I need prep uh prep to um you know do this sort of South Pole in bat because no one's done it, but everyone's talking about it. And he just turned around and goes, You're good to go this year. And I'm this this is in May, and it was I'd have to be there for October. And I goes, What do you mean? Um, he goes, You don't have to, he goes, you don't have to train for years, it's just a load of crap. He goes, it's it's not you've you've got to get you've got to be certain about fitness. He goes, Look, commit to it in November and come up to you know Carlisle and Hadrian's Wall, and I'll take you through a bit more training and that. But you you've got this this year, don't all that hype about planning expeditions for years, just get on with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:42

I'm I'm seeing, I'm seeing kind of that's the same story as Joe Gillespie in in Royal Marine Training saying, You're going SAS, you are. It's that he sowed that seed. It's like mentorship, isn't it? It's mentorship of look, this is someone external that's got credibility that you trust, and is telling you you already sowed the seed, you already think you need the confidence for someone else to say it. You must have been flying back and going, I think I can do this, but like, where do you go for that an expert level understanding? You've spoken to this guy, he's a mentor in many ways, and he's gone, I don't believe everybody else. And I we talk about this before with selection's a good example. People say one of the questions actually is you know, speaking to your younger self, what would you say to yourself before going on selection? I used to say to people, don't ever speak to people that haven't done it, don't ever speak to someone that's failed it, speak to the people that have been successful because they'll give you a completely different story. This guy you've spoken to is he's giving you the truth. Yeah, you're good to go, Craig.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:37

Is that yeah? And um, I mean, and the thing is, so I mean, I think I posted it might have been yesterday, and I thought it comes to coaches. So the biggest thing that people are looking for, and you've mentioned it, but just not used the word, is reassurance. So generally, most people know what they can do before they and a lot. A lot of people, I I say it always a good question to someone is what are you pretending not to know? Generally, you know, you know. So people then go down that line of making the excuses up because they're just you know, they're just you know, they're they're pretending you know that they don't make up the excuses. So with him, like I say, you sort of you know you know what if you've got it in yourself in what you're looking for, you are looking for someone to just reassure you, someone who's credible to say, you know, actually, you know, you can do this, and it doesn't matter what it is in life. I mean, this is obviously an amount of um physical challenge. Um but yeah, that that's sort of like the green light weapon where I'm thinking, well, this place's alleged. Um he's just told me um not licking the ass and he's just told me that yeah, you can do it and you need to do it this year because someone else will do it if you don't do it this year, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:44

Um I love that you you you know, you uh you you're talking about dirty pain, and uh you've been given an opportunity to go and throw yourself at this challenge, you know, you need it. You know, there's there's it's that saying of if not me, then who? And it's like everyone thinks that you need these certain qualifications or experiences to actually do stuff. The reality is you can navigate your way through it, you know, not not literally, but you can navigate your way through most of things if you've got these sounding boards and and kind of a this grit determination and the willingness to suffer this dirty pain. So, you know, how did that go? So, did you do it that year?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:19

Yeah, so um literally the next flight. So flying from Ottawa, I got my mole skin out, and I was, you know, I had it all in my head, I had to raise a hundred about a hundred thousand quid. So straight away it was like, yeah, Virgin, Richard Branson, he loves all that sort of thing. That's gonna be easy. Get a hundred grand out of you know, Rich. Um, you know, this is any advice to anyone who's looking at you know, doing it a future expeditions, uh, you know, is yeah, write those lists down, but so don't get your hopes up. So um it was all all that sort of stuff, planning around and get the money from. Um, and eventually around four and you look at the story, managed to get it, just get it all together right at the very last moment. Um and that what that did mean for me was it I wasn't well prepared, in all honesty. Um, but again, let's get back to the mindset we learned in you know, you know, well, that's just tough level, you know, yeah, you're not prepared. Oh, you should leave it. However, there's a start line here, and we're gonna go across it, you know. That that's it. So got down there, um, not as prepared as I'd like. Um, and I was waiting around in Punta Renus, which is uh very south on Chile. And from Chile, you fly into uh Antarctica, there was a huge weather front coming. So this whole thing that I was getting ready to do, um I just raised the money for, I'd done a lot of training for it. The the weather window is now starting to slip. I needed really 85 days to do the 1400 odd miles there and back. Um, and each day I would then redo all the calculations because each day was going, and so now I'm sort of realizing that maybe this is not possible. But I've got me got Conrad, you know. I'm just saying, oh, there's only you know 79 days now. And he's just like, Yeah, he'd send me back his yeah, that's but it just means you've got to do this, do that. Uh you've still got this, you've still got this, mate. You know, don't worry about that. And it started creeping down. Who dare's wins? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, so yeah, grow, yeah, grow a pair, Chris. God say, you know, um stop phoning me up and crying down the phone every night, you know, costing you a fortune. So yeah, it's been the wind, it just kept going down and down and down. And then eventually I got flown in. So at this point, and again, all the the ALE staff who were fantastic were saying, look, you're gonna have about 65 days to do this. You're not gonna do it, are you? So why don't you just just ditch all of your kit, um, have like a 60 kilometer uh 60 kilogram poke and just go for the one-way record? Um, you know, and I and I sort of put their noses out of joint because I was like, Well, I didn't come down here and only do 715 miles. I was sort of like, well, anyone can do that, can't they? I've come down here for the meaty stuff, you know. I've come down here to get stuck in and start pushing the boundaries. I mean, and actually, the the actual record was held by a woman in um um Hannah, I think McKean, I think, uh, and and Eng is um 39 days. And I was sort of like, I was like quite dismissive of it, really. I mean, they must have a right arrogant sort of pig, really. Because I was sort of like, I think at one point she was sort of like well, you know, why she was a part of the support staff saying, well, why don't you sort of go solar, uh just go one way and see if you can beat my record of like 39 days? And I think I sort of like I was like, Well, it's not, I know I can beat your record, but I'm not interested in going one way. So I started long and short with the kit for going both ways. Um, got dropped in on the edge of the continent with 64 days in this huge bird, uh huge polks, 160 kilograms. It's absolutely huge, and I get dropped off by this twin otter. Um, and I've never even tried pulling this, so I'm now dropped off by this twin otter. You've got the pilot there, you've got one of the sort of support staff, and I'm and they're sort of waiting around, and I'm sort of sat on the polk and sort of get my flask out, and I'm just sort of like looking, and they're just sort of like looking, looking at me, and they're probably thinking, Oh yeah, he's sort of having a nice little cup of coffee before he sort of enters the storm. Um, he's just collecting his thoughts. And and I'm not, I'm thinking, why don't you like just piss off? Because I don't know if I can pull this yet. I haven't even tried to pull a 160 kilogram sled. So I'm sort of like voulay, and then eventually that they shoot off, and then I am sort of get myself all sort of set, and it luckily it's a beautiful day. Um, and then also everyone imagines Antarctica to be mega flat. Well, it isn't the first part of this route is actually you can actually see a hill. And I was told about this by comrade, it goes literally do not psych yourself out. The first thing you will see is a massive hill, which looks like it goes on forever, so just knuckle down with with with that. But from a mental point, I was now on the edge of Antarctica. Um, I was at least 40 grand in debt. Um, I knew that the record probably wasn't possible. Everyone told me it was impossible. I knew, well, I'll probably I'll prove it impossible and I'll do the best I can. And it's the other classic thing. I think I come out of a relationship at a time, mate, and um I was sort of quite really sort of cut up and broken, but I was heartbroken by it all. And I think I've been on like Facebook, you know, uh, you know, two or three days before, and in the usual the head thing, I thought I sort of saw my ex was sort of with sort of someone else that I sort of knew, and I'm sort of, no, no, no, and now so I'm now, you know, I'm I'm I'm broke, I'm skinned, I owe loads of money. Um, I probably can't do what I come down here for, and now I'm sort of like thinking, oh yeah, she's out here with someone else. So it's but but I've got a 1430-mile expedition in front of me on my own. Um, so I quickly had to get rid of all that. Okay, let's just focus on. And my only focus was I had to get to the South Pole as fast as possible. Um, I I couldn't um I had no time. I was 21 days shorter than what I was supposed to have. Um now with with Antarctica, it's pulling, I'm not gonna go into you know how painful it is. And again, with mindset, Comrades, because he's done a similar route, he says, look, the first two weeks, it's gonna be hell. Uh, don't expect anything other than hell. Just think about 14 days, get through those 14 days. Nothing is gonna get better until you've eaten a lot of your weight, until you've dropped off your first sort of um cache. Um, so don't expect anything, it's gonna be hell, but just get through the 14 days and that's it. Because it would seem impossible. You you're moving so slowly, you're making hardly any progress, it just seems impossible. But do not give up within 14 days, keep to the plan. And that was always in my head as well. It's gonna be awful for the first two weeks, but I'm expecting this. Um, and while you're skiing along, it's I I'd listened to a lot of Lou Rudd stuff the other day, and lots of other people, and it was about, you know, now you've got the explosion of um books, obviously, audio books to listen to. Uh back then I had um it was actually you know signal from the sort of old Marine mate. Well, I didn't have an iPod because it was like last minute.com. I didn't even have an iPod for the trip. So I'm like phoning up um side and I thought, mate, can you download a load of music on your iPod? I'm I'm leaving tomorrow. I need to need an iPod, I've only got a shuffle. Yeah, so you did in like day two, it's sort of you know, it's one of the sort of first generation iPods, and it you know, it breaks after about three or four hours. So my iPod's gone, and then all I've got is this little shuffle which has got 60 minutes of like proper hard house, you know, sort of the power hour music. You can't listen to that all day. So I used to listen to that once my final hour every day, and the other the other iPod would work but not work. So I'm now down there in all the clatter in my mind. I haven't even got an audio book, I haven't got music, I've got nothing to drown out all this stuff that's going on uh in my head.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:40

The catastrophizing that you're doing that we'll all do when we fill the gap.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:44

Yeah. In in in so yeah, insult to injury, it's you you can't see anything either. So I've I had I think I had three full days of full whiteout, and I had a combination over another five or six of like being whiteout for half a day or a few hours, and it's mesmerizing. People talk about you know, white out is basically pitch black but white, so all you can see is your ski tips, and you've got like your your compass on a bracket, so you can't use a you know, I'm at time to sort of talk about the navigation, but that's all you're doing, you're just looking at your you know, your compass, making sure it's all aligned, and that's it, and you're just skiing into nothing to a point where sometimes you just close your eyes anyway, because there's no point having them open because you can't see anything. So, yeah, times I'll just relax my eyes and just sort of close my eyes and just be skiing along. And then again, it's highly dangerous. I mean, you know where a lot of the crabasses are, um, um, but there's still that chance. Um, sestrogies, the hard-packed snow. It's you're still coming off these sort of, you know, you're skiing into blind sort of white nothingness, really, and then you're taking a drop of six foot, you know, you're twisting, it's we're back into the dirty pain, which you know, which yeah, I love. But when you can't see nothing, you know you're gonna fall, you're twisting your knees, you know, yeah, everything, every muscle in your body's hurting, and it's that classic where your mindset's different as well. So I know for a fact that you're back in Norway, you're back in Norway, back in back in Norway. Yeah, it's Ali. Um, I know for a fact that you know, if I say um twisted my knee like I twisted it out of there after a few days and gone down to the local physio, there's like, yeah, you've got a great you know that's a grade four, you know, uh ligament strain, you know, and you rest that up for three weeks or so and so. You haven't got an option down there. I just know that I've definitely done something to my knee. I'm gonna do more stuff to other parts of my body. Um, and it's just a war of attrition now. We just got to keep going, uh, keep going, keep going. Um, so in and I sort of talk about why I thought I never went into keynote talking with an expedition like this, because I'm just like, what's there to talk about? I mean, it's just this mundane um idea of getting up, yeah, of extreme suffering, really, where you sort of get out, you start off that you know, um I never took a thermometer with me either because I thought there's no point in putting a taking a thermometer because I don't want to psych myself out. So if I've I've actually got sort of a you know a temperature gauge and with the wind and say one morning I know it's bowing an absolute hoolie, and though it is you know minus 35, minus 40, then I don't worry what I know that is that. So I didn't even bother taking a you know um any sort of thermometer. I just sort of got out there and just just cracked on every time, purely. And that was another mental hack of mine. Why have another excuse to possibly doubt myself, possibly think about the consequences of what it is? Because I know there was um days out there, uh the wind uh speed in yeah, it in the actual ambient temperature, you know, it would have been into those your minor sort of 30s, minor which which you can get into a serious amount of trouble. And um on the expedition itself, there are still massive dangers. I mean, tragically, only probably five years ago, uh, I think it's uh Henry Worsley um ex uh colonel, he didn't die on the continent, but really sort of, I think, pushed himself to beyond where a sort of organ sort of failure, etc. Obviously, a very sad story of a of another person who he was pushing to his absolute sort of um limit. Um, and things can go wrong down there, right? You're not gonna possibly fall down holes, but the biggest barrier down there is pushing past your say your perceived limit of you know exertion and knowing that you can't come back from that. So a simple example is I was really cold. I knew I didn't have any other kit to make me any warmer, is on uh skiing. You've always got this um wind in your face as well in the afternoon. I know I'm cold, I've got no other layers to um add. Uh now, really, I should be so, for instance, a lesson for myself, I really probably need to sort of stop and get my tent up. Okay, why I've you know, you know, you can do as much with your hands and all this and press-ups, and you know, I was doing press-ups out there, and I got to a point at the end of the day where I, you know, my hands were pretty much gone. Obviously, not frost snipped or anything, they were just numb in to get that literally where you're just trying with both hands to get the tent set up, and then critically you've got to get the cooker going. You know, cooker's got small little sort of switches and that um, and again, with my hands weren't working, you know, I could see them and sort of move them, but I ended up having to sort of use both hands and manage to sort of like get the lighter sort of going. And you realised at that point that that's actually you're in a really dangerous position here. You know, you've gone past we should have stopped, okay, when you knew you had the capability of you know, all the sort of you know, you'd be able to use your hands easily, and then realizing that you haven't you've you've pushed beyond. Um it's a little thick, little things like that, uh sort of lessons for the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:37

Um so so how did it how did it go, Chris? So you know, I well, I know the answer, but for those listening, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:44

So so um again, it was um really again. I just went completely balls out um as hard as I could for sort of 10 or so hours a day. And literally got I got to the poll in in 41 days and in so and so, but but as the story evolved and I was sort of like getting sort of you know 20 days into it, it was amazing how the people who were doubted that it was ever achievable in that amount of time, because they just thought it's not you you can't get to the you know poll in 41 days, but that it's gonna take you at least 50 with that load. And what you had is the people who said it was impossible were now telling me this is possible. This is you can do this, you can do this. Um, this is all you know, this is amazing, this is awesome. But I knew in myself over the last five days, I knew how I was feeling, I knew what I could do each day skiing-wise, which I was doing about 20 odd miles a day by that point. Now, for me to then turn around and then get back in, I think it's 24 days, I'll have to have done like an extra 10 miles a day, and that would have been I was doing 20, so I've actually doing like 30 a day, something like that. I knew that I would be able to keep that up for two days, then I'll just blow. And that would be sort of, you know, I'd just be you know, moving along at a cat's a sort of a snail's pace, and I'd end up getting picked up again. So I made a strategic decision that no, I'm gonna stop at the pole. Um, the the single route there, anyway, has only been done by a handful of people. So you sort of then join that another elite club of no support, no assistance, you know, 715 miles. Um game, I can quickly talk about when I got to the South Pole, um, sort of saw the globe there. And again, it's about lying to yourself again. So I got to the South Pole and I got my sort of video out because obviously I've got a responsibility to say sponsors now, and I'm I don't I don't even know where the video is, it's on one of my old Facebook pages. Um, but I'm pretty much sort of um acting like I'm elated. It the weather is bad as well, so it's quite a good video. I'm like elated, oh it's amazing, I'm here, and I want to thank my family, my so-and-so. And and it was all bullshit, really. It wasn't. I mean, I you know, it had been taken from me this one monumental thing where I could sort of leave my sort of name or my imprint in Antarctica, it was stolen from me. I, you know, that was what was coming out of my mouth was a load of rubbish. It was like I was you know, I I knew before I got over the devastation. Um, it was just you know, there for show, really. Um, so I was at the poll.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:09

And that's because you knew that the the the weather window was too small that you couldn't. I remember following you at the time and I was tracking you. You were tracking it on Facebook, weren't you? Yeah, and you know, I remember sort of seeing it, and I've I had that realization that you know that you weren't gonna do it. Um, but then you knew that it was just how doable it was. I guess that's what you mean, is it with regards to it was it was BS because you you knew it was achievable, but you hadn't had the window to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:35

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and and again, so it took about three or four days before I got to the part where I said, okay, right, I got I got up about because again, I knew I was doing twice. I thought, okay, right, today I'm really gonna go as fast as I can and see if I could possibly, because I know by after six, seven hours what I'd have clocked up for. Actually, I'm gonna try and go for like a 25 mile or 30 mile to see how I feel. In to see, actually, let's just try and prove yourself wrong a little bit here. And maybe you can turn around and do this because you're gonna be your light, you're at your lightest already. In for about four hours, I've made massive progress, but I knew the terrain was different by this point. Um, and I thought, and then I then changed my mind again. I was like, no, actually, you you can do this, right? Keep going. And then without knowing that, I checked my sort of like it's never four hours later. I sort of checked um, you know, the GPS and it and it wasn't. It was just there was no way that I was gonna be able to do this. And again, I was sort of a little bit deflated again, is in uh, you know, this is no, it's just you. You're kidding yourself, you're not gonna do it. Um, and it's and also I sort of got to the South Pole, and there's there's no one there. I'm just the only person there. There's no one, not that I it didn't bother me, and there's no one there to greet me. I sort of like walked up to it, there's no one around, and walked back to the where I was supposed to put your tent because it's all scientific down there. And I didn't even do really, I'd done one video um because no one else is there, I can't get anyone to take any photos of me. I've got no sponsors flags. And the next day there's a knock on my tent, and it's this guy Chuck, who's the pilot who flew me in, and he's got like a South Pole um load of Americans um at the South Pole, and they do the South Pole station trip. And this is my flight back as well. And it's you know, and I sort of say hello to Chuck, and he's and I said, Oh Chuck, can you help me with some photos? I've got to do loads of um, you know, photos for my sponsors and that. So he said, Yeah, okay. So at this point, I'm not sort of sort of lightly dressed, and um, I've looked after myself, I'm immaculate, there's no frostbite, it's nothing. I I shaved most of the days with a um, so I was looking, you know, really in good condition. And we went over to where the globe was, and then you've got this, you know, these tourists now just farting around there taking photos, and I'm sort of on the sideline, sort of you know, cold and got the flags ready, and they're just and then there's one bloke left, and he's in this big American. And I'm just like, mate, can you just like you know, just go? I'm trying to, I just want it. I've just walked like over 700 miles and want my head to go. And he's like, I'm listening to him, and he's like, Hey, babe, you never guess where I am, and you know, and he's obviously talking to his wife as a in he's and obviously they're playing the guessing game, and he goes, No, it's the South Pole, I'm at the bottom of the world, babe. And me and his Chuck are just from Birmingham, yeah. Yeah, that's my that's my best American accent. And then and it would just and he's just had this conversation. I'm freezing cold, and um, yeah, and then this sort of Chuck guy sort of moved over to me and says, Look, mate, can you just like shift? You know, that guy over there's just like spent 40 odd days walking there, and he's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there you go. Now get all my photos done. Um, and in this point, it's the first time that my eyes actually, what happens down there is where you're when they have glasses on, your actual eyelashes can ice up, and you get to a point where you can't open your eyes. So I literally then I was before I took the photo, my eyelashes are literally, it's not and you don't just like rip them open. I literally I'm now then sort of like trying to warp these these all up, blah blah blah, and you know, without trying to then eventually sort of after about five minutes, I can now sort of open my eyes properly and get these photos done. And it wasn't until I got on the plane afterwards, sort of Chuck said, Oh, look, you uh you know, we've got an extra passenger on board. And they had all been following me, but um, and then it wasn't until I was on the thing where he said, Look, the last four hours that we've flown here, you know, this guy's just walked in the last 41 days, and then that sort of really gave them the sense of the magnitude of we're flying now, but we're flying back now to base camp. But just to let you know that this guy's just walked where we're gonna fly. And it wasn't until I flew back where I think even though I was disappointed that I didn't do what I wanted to do, I sort of it was almost it was a little tap on the shoulder. It was looking out, going, actually, don't beat yourself up too much. I meant, you know, the external's got the better of you. Um, you've got no control over that. Um, don't beat yourself up. What you've done looking back is you know, is an achievement. Um, there's only a handful of people who've done it. Um, so you know, get over it, get over yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:55

Massive achievement, mate. Um, you know, and you know, fair play to you. I mean, again, it's hard to quantify it. It's well like you know, chapter Nims and you know what he's done, you know. Uh I'm they're not I'm not comparing the two, it's like apples and pears, but it's hard for people to listen and to quantify the difficulty, how dirty that pain is, mate. Because we're sat here listening, now whether people are listening on the podcast um or on YouTube, or they're sat on the toilet watching whatever, it's not you can't easily quantify it. And you know, there's two things I want to talk about. One, the clinic, because um that's that's born out of this struggle, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. This adventure, but then also you come and re-attack what you've just described. So cover those, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:40

Uh um, yeah, so obviously it's it's it's a beautiful thing, mate. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah, that's the clinic. Um, again, it's inspired by the expedition about a lone guy on his own. Um, and there's massive crossover because when it comes to the stuff that you'll sort of enjoy listening to, is um all of us obviously get these voices in our heads, you know. Some people call it the sabotage, the critic, etc. It's this noise, this fleeting force. We all get them, you know, it's a fascinating subject. And I sort of learned to identify and give mine a name. Um, because when I looked into it, and it was a case sometimes you do talk to this sort of like inner dialogue. And I actually named mine the clinic. And this is when I'm looking at performance psychology. So that's actually where the inception of the name comes from, right? This weird, you know, um, you know, concept that I sort of born in my own sort of mind. But yeah, long and short, I didn't want to write non-fiction. I wanted to write like a self-helpy style book. It didn't really work out, it was just I just wouldn't find any enjoyment out of it. So I looked at writing fiction here, and again, it was about, you know, um, inspired by my expedition, it was about this former SAS sergeant called Harry Decker. He's down in Antarctica and he's and he's so it's all modelled on the journey as well. So he's there to create this great history, etc. Um, but he literally keeps sort of like stopping, he's paranoid, are people following him? He's you know, and he's have I got PTSD, um, is it just exhaustion? Is it hypothermia? Um, you know, what's going on in my mind? There's just so much going on, and he's thinking about this conspiracy theory. Was you know, is he part of a uh a pilot program? Is his mind being messed with? And he as he goes along, he just keeps sort of convincing himself now that no, no, something something's happened to me. Now, in my expedition, my um cable broke, it's just snapped in half. Um, which in real life only give me limited power left now um for my phones. So this happens in the book. So now he's even more paranoid. You know, my my you know, my solar panel cable's gone. He's looking, he's looking behind him. You know, what what's going on? So he's got a certain amount of battery life left on his phone. So he decides that what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna broadcast this um video um to someone who I trust about my conspiracy theory, about what I think's happened. What so he does that, and then from a dark room, people are watching this intercepted video, and they're saying, right, we've got a bit of a problem here. This guy is onto it, and that's you know, I'm not gonna tell you anything more than that because that's pretty much a receipt. I could say, hey, so do you want me to read you something? You haven't got the audio book, but I can reach so that's where the whole thing's um born. In um what was difficult was uh I was I was using all the same timelines, and and I've used the characters that I've actually met along the journey as well. And um uh there's a there was a uh there was a documentary on a guy called Tom Tom Crean, um, who's a famous Irish sort of way. He's not famous, he's an unsung hero of like the Scott and Shaperton expeditions. But again, there was these um Irish journalists down in Antarctica, and they come to my tent and want to interview me about it. So these guys are real life characters in my book. They are two journalists, but they've got an alternate motive, they're other people. So all the there was a big mobility exercise going on down there. Um, so these guys, so I incorporate as many sort of real characters as I can. Um, I mean, unfortunately for them, I'm not sure a lot of them perish, but um, that's what made it quite hard. And the feedback so far is been great. Initially, I thought some of the feedback would be a little bit old on this plot's a little bit strange. You know, why has he gone here and gone there and done this? And that was just because I was just following the expedition timelines and trying to fit it all into sort of you know, Conrad's in it, and you know, all these other people, which I've had to ask permission to use their sort of real names in the book. So um that was a labour of love. Um, again, it was talking about um you know projects and um writing is is is up there with any of the hardest challenges ever done. And in the fact that talk about stay in power, um believing in the initial idea. Um, and I'll say about anything. So I talk about you know ideas into ambitions and achievements. Now, if you haven't, you know, I started writing this for the right reasons, I believe. So it's sort of like I want to write this, I want to write a novel on my own about this sort of crazy idea in my head. Never did I think this is gonna be in Wartstones. My motivation wasn't, oh, a big movie deal. It wasn't it wasn't vanity, it was this is a really interesting project. I'm gonna do this myself. And as much as it took quite a long time, um, you know, I'd give up a number of times. Really, I sort of put it on the sort of back burner, etc. And then I was thinking about actually you've got half, about a quarter to go, just give hand it over to a ghostwriter or my editor, you know, Sherry, could she finish it off? But it wasn't. You then come back to the core of okay, what are we doing here? What was the purpose? What was the motivation? It was all about doing it yourself. Um, so managed to get the first one done. Um, and obviously it's set up for a trilogy, so it rolls on to the trace where you get the first chapter in the back of this one, which ties in a few little loose ends. Um in yeah, and that's the um my ambition for all of it. Um don't want to, I certainly don't see myself becoming like a a top fiction writer. This to me is a trilogy. Um, I definitely know I've got the sequel, which I'm writing at a moment. Um, can I push it to a third one? Um, and the challenge there is also how many decent trilogies do you see on TV or in a movie setting? You know, there's you know, probably a couple that you could say actually the trilogy was really good, and obviously the Born series is probably one of them. So that was a challenge. Actually, can I write or create a you know a decent trilogy? Because when you write, you you're thinking of movies in your head. Well, I do. I always think in movies.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:16

So what it looked like, yeah, yeah. Visualization in many ways, absolutely visualizing it to making it real, making it more visual. And I heard that you're it was an internal motivation rather than this external motivation. Again, we could deep dive on that in the sense of how how, in contrast to how most people are motivated and how you've, you know, your journey into the Marines, your journey into the SAS, your journey out and doing your own thing, it was always an internal driver, this internal message inside your head versus these external pulls, you know. So, you know, that is one of the common trends and and kind of one of the things that people should be listening to and taking away. And on that, mate, you know, I'll be checking it out. I look forward to it. Um, in regards to the kind of the um Antarctic expedition, you know, round two, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:02

Yeah, yeah, round two. I mean, I'll try it. The the biggest barrier of any of these expeditions in you know, just to where simply because it's Antarctica, it's um it it's logistical, it's the money.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:13

I've got no money, mate. I've got no money. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:15

Can't you sell some of that furniture in the back?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:18

It's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:21

I mean, I I mean, all honesty, I'm determined to do this, so I'm willing to you know sell my own body if it you know if it gets the money in. Um, yeah, so um a year after um I had my attempt, and a Norwegian guy actually did it. That was done 1400 miles, that barrier being broken, really. Um, so again, obviously very I was very annoyed by that. When you know, we when you're a competitive person, there's not sort of, yeah, we're sportsmen, of course we are, but you know, I'm just I wasn't happy about it because it was a bit of pill to swallow. It was there, but I didn't have the window. So it's always been in the back of my mind that I need something. Um, the expedition at the moment, um, in Antarctica, there's only really sort of one recognized, sort of unfinished sort of business, so to speak, and it's something that I want to look at, and that's doing a full coast to coast crossing. So um, obviously, I'm not sure if you've spoken to Lou Ruddick yet on one of your podcasts, etc. So him and another guy did 912 miles, and that was sort of deemed a land-to-land crossing of Antarctica, um, but not including the ice shelves. What I want to do is I haven't got any visuals, is to go from ice shelf, edge of ice shelf to edge of ice shelf, and it's 1600 miles, give or take.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:23

Stick it in, it's on now, mate. It's now talking about it. I'll stick it in.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:27

Yeah, yeah. In long and short, it's it's very it's very simple. Um is in what in preparation and what to do, because obviously I've done it before. The key thing is uh it's raising the money. We're talking, you know, we're talking 200,000 pound expeditions here. So I've sort of officially started um literally, what's the day they fried it by Monday? So I officially started Monday. I've I've already got 20 grand actually, and that's that's not from me, that's from just um a couple of people I've run it by. But the idea now is with my PDF, um, etc. and um podcasts, etc., is really look at and sales of the book as well, um, is to really start trying to chip away at that massive figure. I've done it before. Um, again, you've got a worst case scenario, it doesn't happen. Okay, we'll roll on next year and let's see if someone's done it. There are people who are interested who who we'd actually know or heard of, who everyone sort of everyone knows this is this is the last one, um, pretty much, um, with no support or assistance, and everyone wants a piece. Um, but everyone's obviously trying to raise that money to sort of get over the start.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:29

How can people help, mate? So people can follow you on Ray Carroll.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:33

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, website's raycarroll. Um raycarroll.com's the website. Again, there's information on it there. Um at the moment, there is no fundraising platform. Um, what we are gonna add to the website is because it's a huge amount of money, is I have a platform where you can like sponsor a mile. Um, you know, I have certain sort of packages of money you can put per mile. I'm gonna do a Kickstarter campaign which releases the the Who Thinks Wins journal series. So, as a part of that as well, that'd be a case of you know, you you buy a you know a journal or journals, you know, whether it costs you 15 quid or whatever, then obviously all the proceeds of that is gonna you know support the expedition. So all I want to do as much as I can is is give people sort of some sort of value because it's sort of gone the days of being able to get sort of 200 grand off a massive corporate, you know, they want return on investment. So I think the key thing is this is when people see that you're more than happy to throw in as much money as you can yourself through whether it's selling clinic or other products, then that that goes a long way.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:34

Um have you tried tapping Richard Branson up? I heard that goes well.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:39

I've I've had a chat that Rich doesn't answer my calls anymore, actually. I don't know what's wrong with the road, mate. But um no, so he's blocked me. Um, and and also wanted to mention I was just chatting yesterday to Matt Hellier, the CEO of Pilgrim's Bandits.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:53

So chatting to him, and that's gonna be one of my uh main uh chosen charities. So again with him as well. Um the key thing in the worst thing about it's sort of a reverse model, really. So in order to raise say 200,000 to get the the execution going, okay, once we do get going, you've then got this 90-day window um where you can really raise some serious, give real serious exposure to pilgrim bandits and obviously raise a massive amount of money then for pilgrims bandits, but it's a little bit sort of chicken and egg. Um, but all you can do it's um again, someone commented the other day, well, what are you gonna do if you don't get the money? It's almost like you'll look a bit stupid about you, but it's but it's no, that's what's different between your mentality and my mentality. Okay, you've got to put yourself above the parapet and you've got to say this is what stability, yeah. I'm not gonna be sat around going, Oh well, if I if I had maybe bothered, and maybe I could have done that. So I'm not gonna be in that position.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:47

Regret, yeah, yeah, regret. No, I massively buy into that. Great. I I've got your name once right once. I love it. So uh I can edit all these out here. But no, we've talked for we've talked for two hours, and um I I love the I love the story. We've not even scratched the surface, we could have we could have tripled this. Um I'm keen to try and uh kind of bring it to a close because again, people most people have switched off anyway, so perfectly. So that's just my draw.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:17

So I switched off about an hour ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:23

There's a few I I put it out on social media. Uh firstly, you know, keep me notified, and any way that we can help you out, and whether that's pushing the message, whether that's driving people towards the book of the channel, whatever, more than happy to make it more than happy to. So um not that anyone listens to me, but I'll just warn you there. I put it out on social media with a few questions. I got a ton, I got there are people that watch what I do in terms of and um you know I thought I'd kind of a hot potato, just throw you some questions straight away. So um I'll put you on the hot seat. So first question, it was asked a couple of times in different ways. So, what skill have you uh uh learned through this journey that you've had? Maybe a military career where it was forged, but that you've been able to transfer into everything else that's borne you some success or some reliance.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:11

Yeah, I mean the the key thing um is I use the phrase is is how to turn ideas into ambitions. Um it's what it's given me is the confidence in that and the belief in myself to know that okay, well, I've got an idea and I want to go for it no matter if it's intellectual, physical, okay. I've got that sort of confidence, that self-belief now that I'm prepared to go into, get uncomfortable. And I use the firm um the phrase about, you know, I've got used to um being comfortable, being uncomfortable. So any ideas I have, which aren't pipe dreams, but I do seriously look at, I don't really have this major fear about getting stuck in. I know that once you just scratch the surface a little bit, do a bit of research, and then you're just slowly, slowly getting in into it. Um, so call it, you know, the who dares win sort of motto. But the big thing is is I've said to you before is you know, what I want to do, I want to craft the talk craft the story I want to tell one day without regrets. Okay, in order to do that, um, these ideas which are authentic, okay, they're not pipe dreams, they're something you're really passionate about because you're not gonna achieve them if you're not. I don't believe you've got to have that passion in drive. It's just knowing that, okay, this is gonna be an uncomfortable ride. I know it is, but I've been here before. I know the feelings, embrace those feelings. It's gonna be tough, but boy, is it gonna be worth it when you get to the end of it. Yeah, and that's with every project with the technology unknown variable for me, writing completely unknown. Some of the other stuff I'm involved in, unknown, but however, scratch the surface, get stuck in, you know it's the right idea, and just don't know.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:53

I'd I'd call that kind of the willingness to navigate the uncertainty. We all hate uncertainty, yeah. You're willing to navigate because you can rely on your own self versus all these external things that we think we need, you know. And it ties into the next question that you know, you're willing to suffer that, aren't you? You've learned that you can suffer way more than you. So, mate, there's the next question similar. It says when you go on an expedition, how much unknown are you comfortable with handling? Like, is it 90%? This is the question is it 90%, or are you happy with dealing with more? How much is planned and how much is are you willing to kind of run?

SPEAKER_03 2:09:28

Yeah, I mean, if you talk about say expedition-wise on the sort of say Antarctica, it's um right, what are the unknowns? Okay, we know that it's all been what's the basically what you're getting at is is what's the the risk, isn't it? And the unknowns are the risks, um, risky where you could die is really um, I think what sort of it's sort of getting to, really. So to answer the question, let's just look at look look look look at say the 1600-mile one. But what am I what am I prepared to do in order to achieve that? Okay, and I've got to look at that question. Okay, am I prepared to enter that world, that void, yeah, where the unknown is me not knowing when I've pushed it too far. The unknown is me. You know, have I bitten off more than I can chew to a point where I mentioned before you can't claw it back, you've done too much damage to your body. Um, that's uh, I suppose it's an internal unknown that's in the mind. Other unknowns, for instance, if it was a case of okay, this route's gonna have to go down um sort of a glacier here, and there's obviously loads of hidden sort of forasses, etc., that's an unknown. Am I prepared to ski down there knowing there's an uncertainty that I can pretty much fall through through earth? Um, now that's appealing, as you know. The danger is appealing, and I've mentioned it before that sort of fear of sort of that fear of not say it's the fear of death, the fear of danger. We like that in uh you know, in bizarrely and pervertedly, we tend to be drawn towards that as opposed to us going, Whoa, that's like we're not doing that. It's almost like, hmm, actually, yeah, that's pretty cool. Actually, that's really dangerous. So I'm I'm up for that. You've got an awful lot of I would take the risk in a massive say in say we talk about these sort of carrash ranges, etc. And we knew there is um you know fatal consequences, it wouldn't stop me.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:15

You've got me. You've you you know you're able to question ask those questions of yourself, and people are sat there probably listening or watching, and they're going, I just wouldn't do it because they've got no context, they've got no understanding. And this I was asked um at this first lockdown, beginning of the first lockdown, I did this talk for the England football coaches, and they likened jumping off the back of a plane into a into a night operation, whatever. And and I'd likened it to taking a penalty in a World Cup final. And then one of the guys afterwards came up to me and said, Um, you know, you said it's the same, but it's not really, is it? Because you've got this risk of death, you've got these risk of consequences strategic kind of an order of effects. And I said, I understand why you're saying that, but you're not seeing the little steps I've made every single day of my life to the point where I'm the person comfortable being on the back of the tail ramp and prepared to jump and take that risk because I've tested myself every single day up to that point. You've got a lifetime of 25 years. We're talking about probably 30 years. Are you talking about your young sporting career, all the things you learn then, you know, about yourself, ultimately, you can add that context to everything and that affords you some balance to these decisions that you're making, and you've got a better understanding of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:27

Absolutely. And in the phrase I use, guys, is is I call it everyone's got an overdraft facility.

unknown 2:12:31

Um

SPEAKER_03 2:12:32

Um in like you just said about the the footballing guys, you know, um how do you you know draw comparisons? And it is again every experience they've had to date, good, bad, or ugly, you're just you know, you're increasing that overdraft facility. So when you do come across, you know, we want to put in a pressure situation on football pitch or penalties, etc., the things that you can tap into, you things that you forget to acknowledge. So people will generally go through life and actually don't realize that what they've actually accomplished, you know, it doesn't all end up with trophies and you know, pictures in the paper and stuff like that. You actually realize that the good, bad, and ugly um they all accumulate and they've all this massive overdraft facility. And when you are going through, say, bad times or you are feeling the pressure, that's when you just really take a good look at it and you realize let's look at the overdraft the city, let's look at all the stuff that I have done. Okay, let's look at all the stuff I have overcome, all the you know, the previous experiences. And you actually remember that you, you know, you can handle this, you you've got the past experiences, but what you fail to do is you just fail to recognize what you have actually done because in the environment we're in now of social media and everyone, it's all based around um, you know, uh sports people, um, hot stars so and so. The actual what you classify as the normal person just doesn't look into themselves enough and give themselves enough credit because it's all out there, isn't it? Um comparing to other people. So you really, you know, you've got to look back into yourself and realize you've got this facility and you've just got to access it.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:02

I um I I honestly couldn't agree more. Um, what we're not saying for everyone is now to take out a massive overdraft. Um, that is not the message there. I'll be your overdraft.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:13

If your overdraft's bigger than mine, then I want to interview you.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:18

I uh you are gonna need a massive overdraft for what you're about to take on. So, no, mate, that I think we'll wrap it up there because I'm gonna edit Ray back into that one. Um that's that's been mega. And I know people have had an absolute masterclass in challenging yourself, taking yourself to places you didn't think you could probably do, um, and learning more about yourself within that. And and I know you'll gain a load of people following you and looking out for your future successes too, mate. So uh no, it's been it's been a pleasure. I don't know if you've got any kind of final thoughts, words.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:54

No, thanks a lot, uh uh guys for having us. We've been looking forward to this conversation for uh uh a long time. Um the first one thing is I just need to get boots in here. So boots, this is your clinic book. Boots is one of our uh close friends and sort of 4-2 commando days, and uh, you know, it's all there for you, Mark. So that's that out of the way. Um the thing with um, I think we very similar people, and we're sort of very modest, very authentic in what we want to do. And I think with with anyone, you know, you've got to have ideas. So have ideas to turn them into an ambition, you've got to, like I say, scratch the surface. Nothing's as hard as you think. So have an idea, do a little bit of research into it, and then just give yourself that prove yourself right or wrong, okay. If if you think you can't do it and you do do it, you prove yourself, you know, you prove yourself wrong, okay. If you think you can do it, but you don't do it, you prove yourself, you know, um, or you prove yourself sort of right. So it's just really um having that burning ambition to just really turn that idea, okay. Um, so the idea into an ambition and just taking that leap of faith because nothing is as hard as you think. Oh mate. And again, it just seek you know, and seek reassurance. Everyone's looking for reassurance. Pick the right people though. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:06

100%. 100%. There's a ton of people that people can kind of grab hold of and and ask advice of these days. There's no better, there's no better time in our history that we can. Yeah, especially people like Richard Branston to reach out and to get good advice from them. And you know, in all seriousness, and so you know that's great advice. I think I can't think of a better way to to kind of summarize it. And I hope people have been inspired to scratch around their own story a little bit and and do more of what they want to do. So, Ray, it's been an absolute pleasure. Cheers, guys, and I'll speak to you soon, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:40

All right, yeah, super. Thanks a lot.