The Duratus Mind - ThruDark - Endeavour through adversity

ThruDark are a technical outdoor clothing company born from arduous environments and highly demanding circumstances.  The Directors of the company were all forged from decades within UK Special Forces.  Anthony 'Staz' Stazicker and Louis Tinsley talk all things Thrudark including; purpose, leadership, success, why Jay Morton left the company and managing the pressure of running a global clothing brand.  Staz also shares his recent experiences as the mole and DS on the hit TV show SAS WDW. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Good. We are good.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Gentlemen, through Dart Part 2. How are we doing, lads? You're right.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Good. Good, mate. Welcome, welcome in the new establishment.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Well, I was gonna welcome you back onto the Durate S Mind podcast, but for those people listening, for those that aren't looking on YouTube, I've walked in today. First time I've been down since we last chatted, and you're in a new location. And uh genuinely, lads, walked in, it blew my mind with how much your business is progressing. So I'm I was interested and excited before I came down. I legitimately keen to unpick this. And I know there's a ton of people listening. Last time we joked about one or two listeners, you know, there's there's genuinely five or six people now listening, wondering about what it is that this magic dust that threw Darker Sprinkler and everything, and what you're touching is turning to gold on the face of it. So I'm super keen to unpick where the business is, where it's been the last few uh 18 months now since we chatted. Um, and it's just a pleasure to be down here again and uh catching up, to be perfectly honest. So yeah, great to be here, lads. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Pleasure, mate. It's good to have you back in. And I think um, yeah, I'll I'll I'll start off and mainly because I'm uh about three coffees deep again, uh, which can be uh problematic. But I think yeah, what a progression. I think from from where we were and where we started initially from from Through Dark and the Inception, you know, myself and Louis as starting as an idea. You know, that seed was planted when we were both currently still serving, you know, in in the SBS. And you know, um looking back now, um, it seems like a million miles away and uh many moons ago. But I think you know, you have to start somewhere. You know, the idea was pitched in America while we were free-fall um jumping, and you know, Louis getting ready to leave, myself also looking at different options and plans, and you know, I think from then it was a case of formulating the plan what we wanted to do. We had an idea, you know, uh for Through Dark and what we wanted to achieve in terms of the look, the field, the brand, the ethos, and all those kind of core values and everything as well. And you know, Jesus, it's I'm not gonna sit here and just say it's been plain sailing and and and a straight road to to success from the outside looking in. Uh it's not, certainly not. I'm gonna say that you know, it's probably not uh not something you should perhaps say, but I think it needs saying is you you do need a lot of lux, an element of luck in life, in business and everything else as well. And I think those people that just sit there and say, I'm brilliant, I know everything, I've implemented a perfect business strategy, you know, along the way, everything's worked out, and I've hit all these key milestones and all these indicators, it's not it's a fucking windy road. Yes, it is, it's bullshit, and you need a lot of luck as well. You need a, you know, we've we've grafted, we have worked hard, and you know, it's been uh it's been a long old uh difficult process, but it's been enjoyable.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Well, we're seeing that we I'm seeing the change. You see it on a daily basis, so it's probably less obvious to you. You've got your spreadsheets, I'm sure, that are showing you some change. Um, I'm keen to unpick some of that because a lot of people that I chat to talk about making your own look, and you've got to be in it to win it. I mean, you've got to be involved and doing the things that you want to do. So um I I I don't listen to my podcast back after I've edited them genuinely, but before this, because it's been 18 months since we've chatted on a business perspective, anyway. Um, I did I did a little reviewing and I made a few notes on on kind of some common themes from the last one. For those that haven't listened, it's it's some way back in the back catalogue, but um, it's worth checking out. And uh these are some of the the things that you brought out yourselves then. That um firstly always learning first. That was one of the things that you're looking to do. Like that, you know, yet did you make mistakes? You said in the first one, you you didn't call them mistakes, you're learning, aren't you? You're you're prepared to fail forward, and you know, as long as you're getting that feedback, then that's key. You know, you how you define success is really important. Again, I wouldn't mind unpicking that a little bit more. Um, and just again, how you know the at the core of what you do is is a big dollop of humility. You know, some people might be blinded by what's on social media, but the core of what you do is humility, and and and I remember that a story that again, this is why I wanted to come back because one of the stories you told Louie really briefly is just how in your, I'm assuming, transition from the military into setting up your own business, you went to work for a couple of weeks in a factory in Preston, uh, and you learnt a ton of things. And now, from someone with your background at the time, that must have taken a ton of humility, um, but you learnt from it, and that's what I think people can learn from you guys and this common message amongst people that have their success in their field. So, yeah, just it's it's had um like again, unbelievable change since I was last here. So, I don't know if again, Louis, how's that gone for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah, I mean it's been well a strong 18 months of growth, uh, not without its frustrations. I think uh where we were last time when we spoke was um uh probably at busting point. I think we'd we kind of reached full capacity on a lot of levels, whether that be infrastructure, um location, you know, the office block that we were in at the time, and um also manpower and um digital infrastructure as well. So I think all of those things have grown as the business has grown with their own little obstacles, but I think that's just it's just part of it. But yeah, it's um it's been it's been a graft, like Stas says. And I think just going back to what you've just said there, it's uh always remaining the student. And it's I I actually get I get a lot out of that being able to learn something, whether any new skill, I'm I'm into it anyway. So I think as long as you're open to that and know that you've got you've got some way to go, um, you know, you you kind of got your own goals setting along the way. So if you've got a new skill set that you want to do and just trying to progress in that, yeah, it works for me.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

So some of the slickest social media going, and you know, that is the front, that's the that's the the business that people see, and that's what people are buying into a lot of the time. But I'm keen today to just unpick the behind-the-scenes stuff and the the day-to-day activity, and like how are you dragging this company forward? Because I know it doesn't come easy, and we've chatted before this about friends, colleagues that are doing their own thing, and it's not always easy, and we've met with obstacles, and just because of your background doesn't afford you any better success in that apart from the disciplines that you've learned. So I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that. Like, what are the day-to-day challenges, firstly, with running a business like this for people?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I think I think I like to attack it anyway from leading from the front. I think you've got to do that, or definitely from our background, you do that. Um, lead by example. It's like if you've you've got a job that needs to be done, it doesn't matter you know how low down the pecking order that that is or considered that that particular task, you should still be prepared to do it and lead the way on it. Now, it's not to say that you shouldn't hand that over to somebody, and I'm probably pretty terrible at handing over jobs sometimes, but delegating. Delegating, yeah. I think that's where Stars' strong point probably comes in.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

And mine doesn't just delegate shoulders. Yeah. No, I think yeah, and this also sort of skill stacking as well is quite a big thing, you know. Um, I think that's something that we're very good at with our background. You know, we're multifaceted, we bring a lot to the party, um, probably another way of looking at a little bit shit at a lot of things, but I think we do skill stack very well, you know. And I think we touched on it last time about you know having our own roles and responsibilities and jobs, but Louis's exactly right there, leading from the front. You know, the guys will come in. We're creating a community here that that, you know, rather than you know, a workplace that people want to come into work as well, and they're all part of you know the bigger purpose of Through Dark and really growing the brand. And you know, I think move moving into this location as well, into the new unit, you know, we're creating um hopefully a place that the guys want to come into work and don't so much see it as a as a daily grind or work, and and that's how it was back in back in the day for UKSF, you know, for us going into work essentially, you were going in with your mates, doing something that you you you all wanted to do and and all had a common theme and a com and a common job.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Yeah, massively. I mean, again, some feedback for you on that. I I drove down, I've not been here. Um, I've seen what you've been putting out there on social media, but driving into this place, the location where the business is, your front stands out. You know, there's a there's a ton of grey buildings around here. You've made uh a home, and it's you walk in, and one of the things that struck me when I walked upstairs, and I'm we're sat here now, we've kicked them out so we can talk about them. But um, the number of people you've got working here, that was a surprise to me. I had no idea that you had that, you know, before it was it was a smaller outfit. You've you know you've developed that. So, how have you been choosing the right people for your culture, your brand? You know, talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I don't know. Um, it is difficult. I think um I think you're very selective with it. Um you can be quite anal and just trying to get the right person's difficult. And and I think it's um, you know, not necessarily uh hiring skill, it's hiring the personality that's able to grow within the business and being multifaceted, like Star says, you you've got to be able to juggle a few jobs, not just one, because we're still quite a tight-knit team. Um you know, we can't really afford to have people who are narrow into their skill sets and and just being able to do that job, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

So that's definitely one thing we took from again working in UKSF and within teams and lads, you know, picking up multiple jobs. And you know, we've always said I'll I'll pick a personality over a talent sort of any day of the week. You know, we've got to work with them day in, day out, and the lads go above and beyond, you know, for us as a as a company. I think in total, there's you know, we're still a lean workforce in in regards to kind of our output and our reach and and everything as well. And I think setting yourself up for success and understanding kind of um how people work, where best to employ them, you know, using their skill sets and hopefully giving them the vision that they can grow within the brand and and their roles and responsibilities will increase, you know, in turn as well.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, I I walk in here and it's almost like being back in the squadron lines in some ways, but even Gucci are in many ways. Um you walk up the stairs, you I'll I'll put some of this on the video right now. Um, but you see the heritage, you see the authenticity, and for lads coming into this and ladies coming into this business, you know, they must see that and they must go, this is this is a good place to work. And within the building, you know, there's a there's a definite vibe, and that's what projected out there on social media, but you feel it when you're here, and again, it's been purposeful, I know, but how big a part of Through Dark is is that important? Because again, you you don't want a place just to go to work in an office and grind, it's like you've you've created an environment here, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, I think it works both ways though. I think it's like it's like that respect discern things is quite the backbone of uh through dark as well. It's if you give them somebody else who you've you've took on board to be part of the team and give them the respect that they're here to do a job and and other things as well, um, they'll respect you for that as well. So I think it's just it works both ways. That's a leadership thing, I think um you know you know very well.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Yeah, keen to keen to dig a bit deeper on that. So good lead well, good teams rely on each other. And you've obviously both got your strengths, and you know, you you spoke already about them, but you know, I talk I talk with groups of people more often than not, and they're they're asking questions about what good looks like. Well, good teams rely on each other, and how what what are your two strengths, separate strengths, and how do you complement each other? So, like Stas first, like what what would you say your strengths are on the business front? And and and then again from to Louie, how do you and I can see him smiling there, but uh they should match they should match in, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Well no, the thing is they will do.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

But you you it's working, so it does. So, I mean, again, I'm throwing you a bit of a hand grenade here, but sort of so what you know, what are your strengths with regard to the business staz?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And it's good. I think this has changed as well, and and I think it is a twisty-windy kind of road to success and how the business shapes. You know, in the beginning, me and Louis, you know, were we uh both spinning a million plates, you know, uh and in different fields as well. And you know, I'd say for me, sort of strength-wise, it it's networking. I'm a kind of people's person, you know, reaching out and and kind of opening doors, uh, the social media side of things, um, tech and content, content-driven, you know, all this kind of stuff, and um, and again the design element from a thought process and and how we kind of like the garments to look and feel and shape. Um, you know, in terms of weaknesses, probably um, if I'm honest with myself, it's um I'm not very kind of um office focused when it comes down to you know your spreadsheets, you know, the day-to-day, the email kind of thing, and that uh that's where probably again, you know, Louis will come into, but that kind of design element and having that flair and you know putting that thought process to iPad paper, you know, and then chasing things through, you know, it's um uh I'd probably say it's well there's there's loads of different things from a daily basis in and out as well that are that you know, we we complement each other, I think, very well. And I think it's almost like in relationship, you know, someone you can't both be dad, you know, and you know, both can't be mum. And I think it works quite well, and there's always going to be like a uh sometimes power struggles and balances and imbalances, and you know, it and you have to kind of you have to grind that out, you have to walk through that kind of process together. And you know, we've been best mates for the best part of 15 years, and you know, nothing can prepare you for business. Business is different, you know, and you will butt heads, you'll clash, and and things happen, you know, these the these these things are few and far between, but it's nothing that you can't sit down at a table and thrash out and and literally sort out between you. And I think you have to, and I think uh it elevates you, you know. Louis brings out the best in me, you know, he holds me accountable. You know, I've said it before on on my Instagram stories and stuff. I don't want a yes man. I don't need a a friend that's just from fluffing me down and buttering me up and and telling me I'm great, you know. I want somebody to challenge me and and tell me my shortcomings and I can work on that as well. And you know, there's been a bit of that as well and uh in between, but it's um yeah, I think I'm for the better of it as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Do you agree, Louie?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, I do, yeah. Yeah, um, I'll reiterate everything you said. I think um we know this well anyway, because we've been doing it for that long now. But if you didn't know each other's strengths and weaknesses, you're probably doing something wrong. So I think knowing each other's strengths and weaknesses is invaluable. Um yeah, so I think from my side of things, I guess uh I I take over from you there, it's uh creative side of things, and I guess I I'm a fixer, I'm a builder, I like I like to I like to make sure things are working and knowing the nitty-gritty everything from you know how how a product is made, all those little i idioincrasies. I like knowing all of that information, so a kind of a bit of um yeah, a knowledge fiend, I guess. Um so that kind of works on my part.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Is that where's that born from, mate? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

I don't know. Is it not some people would say it's natural, I'm not sure whether it is. Um I guess you learn some of it, don't you? But um, it just happens along the you know the journey of life. I think you pick things up and you're naturally good at things, and then because you're good at things, you tend to do them all. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

So yeah, again, just for my only reason I ask like myself, more of a surface and broad kind of person. I love new things, new perspectives, new ideas, and going really deep on things isn't the thing that kind of drives me necessarily. Um, and you know, like you said, and and again, I'm hearing more of that in in with what Stas said, maybe I might be wrong. Um, but you know, understanding each other's strengths. It sounds like you said, it sounds like you you two have got it worked out and it flexes, it evolves, doesn't it? And both of your personal circumstances evolve. I know one of the things that I talk to people about, mostly execs, on a on a daily basis, is how you balance this because you guys have got a passion here, so you've got a place that you come and you can spend time and you can burn hours a week here, no problem. But when it comes to making it work with the other aspects of your life, and you know, how do you manage that? You know, Stas, you've your father, you've got three children now, and and and sort of it's interesting, mate, super interesting for me.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

And I think this is where you know I I would probably quite a lot of debt of gratitude to Louis for understanding that because when you enter the business, you know, personal circumstances are different, you know. So when it you know, Louie is super understanding when it comes to stuff like that, you know. I'm getting pulled and pushed and in different directions here from a personal level, you know, Ruby, you know, um uh Mrs. Stasterby, she's got a you know a different you know kind of process going on in her head, and and she needs me back at home for certain circumstances, but she's you know super supportive, understands that this is a it's a full-time job. You know, you this isn't something that me and Louis leave here and we go home and that's it, you know, you know, just switch off and turn the telly on and head back. It's not, it's completely different, you know. So for me, there are stresses, there's strains, there's you know, we get asked these questions quite a lot. How do you sort of manage that time and still train and and still do the have that work-life balance? And it's tricky, and there's no there's no go-to answer for that. And everybody's circum like personal circumstances are completely different.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

You know, we we we both put the questions out there um before this, and that probably came up five times what you just said, the how do you balance it? So, you know, on the face of it, you know, with regards to your Instagram and what people see, you know, you're still carving out your time stats for that part of what you see as important. I mean, people don't see it with yourself, Louis. I think that's one of the comments, but I know there's a few things that you manage in there as well, but you know, so I'd like genuinely how do you manage that to in a busy you know, this needs attention, this place is uh, you know, it is busy. How do you carve it out? Or are you just right, I I need an hour a day, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Um I think I was just gonna say there, it's like you've both of us have got to be the you know, the LC and I have Sora that you've got to understand everything that's happening in the business. Now, that's not to say that you know, because Stas is at home, he doesn't know what's going on, it's like he knows exactly what's going on, but one of us has got to be able to pick up that slack, and if I'm away, he picks up the slack. If you if you're not completely knowledgeable about what's happening in the business, something is gonna fall under task. So I think um just being aware of everything really.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Yeah, and I think that's one of the skills that you do develop when you you know you start a business like Through Dark. Me and Louis have we've done everything within the business, absolutely every every aspect of the business we've personally done. You know, we're getting into a good position now where as the business grows, we can start looking at outsourcing, you know, and resource, bringing people in, subject matter experts, and these people now have relieved a lot of pressure, a lot of the day-to-day stress and pressure for me and Louis, up to the point where at the moment sometimes you're kind of thinking, you know, probably I should be doing a little bit more here, or I'm not, or I am. And you know, this we've we've brought in some great, great people that have added um, you know, a substantial kind of benefit and difference to how we run day-to-day from a business point of view. You know, Ben, you know, product master and Matt Hardy and photography and bringing in web developers, SEO specialists, and the guys, you know, on the shop floor that are order fulfillment and customer service. You know, we did this all before, me and Louis, and it is that probably the element of me of being able to delegate. I'm quite cutthroat with that kind of stuff. I can step back and go, right, um is this the best use of my time right now? Is there somebody else that can relieve this pressure from me so that I can forward project and look at the bigger picture? It's like the battlefield, isn't it? You stand and if you're we all want to be the door kicker, you all want to be the you know that that um that first man in, you know, that person that's in there and in the firefight, but sometimes your judgment's clouded and you need that element of whoa, well, stand back, stand back. And you put as you progress through life or through your military career or through business, I think you do need that element of right, step back, step back. Are we are we tracking, are we heading in the right direction? Can we see the wood for the trees essentially?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Oh, I think it's an important point actually, as you become more experienced, you realize your time isn't best served being that first man in, you know, and the the the the a leader needs to be the person that's coordinating this kind of stuff and making sure the best people are doing the best thing. That's exactly what you've described. It's exact, and it's there's so many similarities, and people people ask me again that know that I know you sort of what is it that kind of translates from their former careers into this? And it's a ton of things. I remember I don't know if I mentioned this on the first time, I definitely mentioned it before, but um during my transition from former military into the real world, as we say, um we had this lady from uh I think she's from Standard Life, some big financial company, and she was like, Have you ever been in one of those jobs where in your military career where you've just been cannonballed in and you don't really know how to do what you're doing? And I was like, Yeah, that's pretty much every job every day, every job I've ever done in my career. And she's like, No, no, you're not understanding now. You don't you're not had the training to do what it is, and I'm like, Yeah, that's pretty much every day of my career. And you know, you haven't gone to business school to go and train yourselves to have this business, you've you've gathered experiences. I I I talk to people about well, experiences times a thousand equals experienced. You can only get experience by having those experiences, so you value those experiences and you learn from them, you fail forward, you have big wins and you celebrate those and you crack on and you keep gathering these experiences. So, what you described there is, you know, as you've become better leaders within this new domain that you're in, you're you're selecting good people for good jobs, for the really good jobs in a in a an attractive organization. You've created a culture, you know, you've you invest in them. One thing I'm loving especially is the kind of Friday Jiu-Jits BJJ session that you're having, and you're getting experts in to kind of you're not you're not trying to run with that. You've got that white belt mentality, which again, I I absolutely love. Um, the first chat we had, um, you were talking a lot about that, always learning, and you were talking about. um the whiteboard and the importance of the whiteboard, getting the ideas on there and just talking about them. I'm I'm looking around where's where's the whiteboard now?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Is it tucked in behind the coffee machine? It's hiding.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Just hit it away from the camera. So what's what's on the whiteboard? Where's where are you going in the next 12 months and then projecting forward? What's the plan?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

I don't uh on that whiteboard actually is a go-dark thing, but yeah we'll we'll talk about that another time it's secret secrets here.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Super secret shit. I think well we do this every Monday pretty much don't we we have a kind of a um you know a start of the week get all the get all the guys in get get the team together and okay you know and we do kind of short medium long you know kind of vision where we are data then that's broken down into daily kind of tasks and names to tasks and then it's kind of what do we want to do you know what's next what's the you know the closest kind of crocodiles and again we've spoken about it before about trying to fit too many bits of fruit in your basket you know and and and understanding you know kind of um where we want to head to and I think it's um a long about roundabout way of saying um having short medium and long term for for the business that's certainly there and that's what's on the whiteboard it's kind of that vision that strategy and and that's again probably comes back to to military kind of planning and preparation and then you should call it a mission right yeah exactly that I think it's actually extracted from a mil from military um doctrine somewhere it's um yeah the same sort of headings as you would expect from a set of battle orders or something like that but just twisted up in our own way. And have you you've learned to do this right I guess you've not always had your Monday morning get together you've or or have you has that been a staple part of you have you developed this as you've gone have you learnt as you've gone I think we've had we've had to do it more regularly because we've got more people involved so there's a there's a lot more organization that needs to be done when when it was me and Stars it was like we we knew what what each each other was doing on a day-to-day basis anyway but most of the time um so yeah I guess it's uh it it you just need that structure don't you you need that organization you need that communication is is probably one of the biggest things um but we knew that anyway we knew that from the military background it just becomes more difficult as you grow as a business and and maybe the ears aren't quite as good as what they they are from the special forces yeah and I think it's it comes down to kind of um ingraining that culture and good habits as well so setting ourselves up for you know for success really and we talked about success and setting up for success through everything through from front of house customer facing social media you know all those websites all those platforms and these things are are constantly evolving you know we're looking into uh a design first round of design process for a new website and you know it's um which comes at its own its own beast as well and people probably from the outside are thinking well the website looks great but you know not understanding the back end functionality issues that we have for the website and and the kind of how it it's currently kind of stampering growth uh into other areas and and everything else but you know we have got we've got big plans you know it's the uh is it kind of great we didn't come to take over uh you know we didn't come to take part we couldn't take over sorry so I mean for us we've got loads of whiteboard it should be on the whiteboard it's written on the walls it should be there's a lot on the walls there's a lot on the walls it's it's it's genuinely an impress it it goes to show your authenticity and the attention to detail and all that you do this place is like I've said it's it's an impressive beast um yeah I think when yeah I mean how long ago now was it six months ago when we started to really look into the the move from the old office space into into here and it's a big old move um I use the analogy it's like trying to change the oil on a car when it's still running at God knows 120 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

So it's like my crazy horse analogy last time. So yeah I think I think it's been we we had to do it from a capacity um storage perspective and for hiring new staff you know it was just becoming difficult where we were but yeah we I think we tried to when that did we try we didn't try too hard it was it's kind of natural that that heritage from the special forces background came into the new office space because it was like our old lines like you said the in a special special forces squadron you what what you usually have is like men memorabilia on the walls and you know old jobs that you've done or something to to you know look back on so a bit of history and I guess that's what we've done here so yeah the the stairwells lined with pictures and memorabilia in inside the office here as you can see so but I I think what's important for people to connect that's not for show so it's not so people come down and say this is impressive it's the reminder of what who you are what your background is that daily reminder and the not just yourselves and and it's the people that work and go this is what I'm a part of and this is what we're trying to do and it's that constant I listened to a um a podcast it was the Mercedes team they've got a a Mercedes car in the middle you walk you walk into the office reception you walk in it's there because it's that reminder you're like well not everyone can do that but you've you know in your own way you've replicated that and why is that important that is part of these building blocks that you know you for everyone going to work and you know in the grey offices and you know you you know that you don't always get that reminder but this it is a part of investing in your team isn't it and letting them realize so that again all credit to you um one of the things that again we we put the questions out there you know there's there's gonna have been challenges in the last three four years that you've been running now is that and has there ever been a point that you felt like this ain't working and we're gonna we're gonna stop this we're gonna pull the pin short answer no um and I guess drive focus you just want to make it work solutions not problems one of my favourite sayings it's like you just make it work you know just keep going you know that there is a way where there's a will there's a way um so I guess yeah we we have we've had loads of dramas you know loads of snags and every single one we just we kind of sit down and go you know give it a woe steady and then and then go right how do we fix it?

SPEAKER_02 28:11

How do you do that? So when things have gone wrong how do you give it a woe steady?

SPEAKER_01 28:17

What's that look like usually blame stars and then and then see what happens. No um just condor moment so I guess that's a military thing as well isn't it just taking a condor moment and um and just really really just getting probably getting everybody in now if we if we do have any sort of snags we haven't had a big snag from a from a a a business perspective for a while.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

And I think yeah I think again background kind of I keep going back to that and touching that because it does kind of shape who we are and and and our thought processes and and probably one of my biggest takeaways from my time in the military is perspective. And I think once you get that perspective and and you can shift that across into business and life and balance and everything else and you know we all have those same feelings those same worries and and everything else from the daily life to business and is this going to work what about that and what if what if what if and I'm uh probably one of my superpowers I'm you know I I don't overthink too much uh about everything you know I think it's um step back take some perspective right solutions not problems you know usually if we're if we're getting carried away or pulled down a road we don't want to be pulled down it's a step back talk to each other check each other off what's your thought process what are the solutions here what's the options on the table right now is there anything that we're missing you know we can speak to other people gain little bits of information whether that's from you know Steve the the investor or friend and and from a business side of things whether it's a day-to-day thing as well I think you know we can draw on our own personal experiences and the team around us as well so when I think part of that culture as well is we're not too big me and Louisa kind of come up here this is an open office you know we don't have a separate Louis and Staz office you know it is the open door policy you know all the ideas are spun around everybody you know and and that's probably an SF thing as well isn't it about have you consciously done that have you have you consciously kept everyone involved or is it just part of who you are do you think have you have you had these chats between the two of you going right what is it that we want to build in this new office and what does that look like and you know the nuts and bolts I think it's come naturally from the way that me and Staz work together as well so I think because me and him are like that it's collaboration we do things together it's not about me it's not yeah it's like that just bleeds down to everyone else so I think it's yeah it's all encompassing really and just making sure that everybody's involved and many minds isn't it it's like if somebody somebody's gonna see a mistake then you know or many eyes um somebody else is going to see a mistake you need to be able to do something about it so yeah it's and it's like an ego thing isn't it we we're not filled with ego and you you know ordinarily speaking being a co-founder or a director and you know you you can feed that feed yourself with that shit that shit that bullshit and you know when it comes to an issue and you know we're not closed minded we don't think I know all the answers here you know and and that's it shut up I don't want to listen and we've all been surrounded with those kind of people before and you it's almost like you stand back and look at those people and think what's going on here we're all looking at each other saying we're going to name names here we're gonna name names exactly no but it is and but you you remember that so we speak openly in front of everybody and about issues about how we can grow and and what's next and and everybody's informed and it it it it it's like going back to the the McLaren the Formula One car and in the reception you know it people here and working with us as part of Through Dark all know that it's all for the greater good you know we all grow together as a business and as individuals and and I think that's why they like being a part of this.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

I mean it sounds like it's experiences again you know you've learned this from young men through your careers up to this point and that you've picked bits that work and so I'm thinking from the people listening it's like how does this apply to them and what can they do? Because there's people watching you and where the I know it I know it's not a goal of yours but you will be role models to many people listening going that's what I want to do and there'll be there'll be no doubt people watching you going I'd love to work there and message them ask them but you know how what is your advice to them that well thinking about doing something because I know you wouldn't be threatened by anybody that would try and do similar right but what what's your message to them that you know you've you've had these experiences you've you've found yourself here it's you've controlled that but there's a lot of people you said you don't overthink things Stas but it's a lot of people ravaged with well I can't do that because you know of my in this internal message and movie scene that I'm playing all the time I've been there I'm not always the person that I'm not I am someone that thinks a lot so I do play that movie and I and I use it I think and this is part of why I do this chat now to try and unpick this with other people so what you know you what would your advice to people be and they're listening going I could never do that.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

I want to I'll reiterate just to kind of clarify my point on that what me saying I'm not an overthinker doesn't mean I'm just I'm talking bad thoughts negative thoughts things that are just that come in and I think to myself you know I think Louise said where is the misuse of imagination and people use that and it burns and it eats away if it's something that's negative or something that's already happened or something that I cannot control that is about to happen I can remove myself from that situation.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Now things that I on that mate I just told a button do you know how you do that because some people say well it's easy to say it's not easy to do have you got you know have you got a way that I call it a circuit breaker I talk about this with people say well how do you create that circuit breaker to that right my my mind's telling me my mind's telling who'd have thought R. Kelly would have got a mention um but you know how do you do that with a with a circuit breaker like do you know if you how you do it have you got something that you go right overthinking something I'm gonna go do something else.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

I don't want to put words in that I think I think it's experience. I think it's being in those situations and then allowing that to happen and take control of me previously and I think you learn from your experience and I think what value did that add what what good did that bring to me by overthinking over worrying or playing things out in my mind that are that are future you know potential future mishaps or hurdles or or worries and concerns and we've all done it you know when we're not infallible we're all human beings you know and there's no secret source there's no circuit breaker no switch off no count to ten no deep breaths for me it's not it's not that it's a fact that I've I've been there and and I've kind of done that in my younger years and I think it's added zero zero um to me as an individual so how do you differentiate because again you you whiteboard that's been hidden away um you've you've you're creating a vision there aren't you but that's a positive vision that's where you want to go so how do you separate between the two to to cancel out the ones that that's not so good just focus on the focus on the good have you got any thoughts on that? No I think it is it is exactly that it's it's understanding what what that negativity is and and focusing on all the positives and trying to switch it up as well and always think about well what if but in a good in a good way a lot of people always think negative or the conservative or yeah but what if this and what if I I'm not one of those kind of people and and maybe that's just it is it's nurture maybe it is that it's it's moving through kind of life experiences and understanding that you know worrying about the little things or things that might happen it's look I'm kind of one of those guys just if it happens it happens and and I I will cross that bridge when it when it comes to it it's not to say you don't think about things that could happen and having plans in place but you know that's kind of my take on it.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

I think that that's probably why there's another little um synergy between me and Stars there is like it he he is very good at that as well being able to just you know that where worries a misuse of my imagination I am an overthinker and I do think about think things through and it's sometimes to my detriment um but it what it also does for me and and I'm happy with that is it helps me to cover all the bases which reduces my anxiety about things that could go wrong. So I guess I overthink a lot of things um but I don't see it's a bad thing you put you put the green lights in place right so yeah you know Stas ignores the red and just well that could happen but my experience tells me that it probably won't moves around it you do your best to think and imagine the reds and create a line of greens yeah but there's been times where I've been over worrying and Stars has gone don't worry about the red and he's cracked on and it's it's worked out do you know what I mean it's panned out because we I've kind of let starz lead with it and then there's been probably other times where it's worked the other way and I've put the brakes on and and you know it's worked out because I've done it. So I guess you've always got to have that balance and I think that's where the partnership just works so so well it's like you've got to have people who are different but also think alike and that's a very hard balance.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Do you so one of the questions that someone put in was about managing a business comes with constant pressures.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

There's a constant pressure there's never you're fighting fires aren't you in some ways and there's never a time when you've got nothing to do so some people would be overburdened with that be overwhelmed with that that there's always again as a as a business owner myself and I'm probably somewhere between the two but definitely more inclined to Louie where I think about things a lot deeper rather than being just intuitive and just go do it more often than not I think about things and I plan but how do you deal with the the the constant pressure so do you view it as a constant pressure or is that your motivator I mean what is it live eat sleep and breathe it I think um it it would it's just us on a day to day basis would this is us you know and that's why it is so genuine because everything we're doing is just the way that we live our lives on a day to day basis with the added stresses of running a business you know but it's it's it's us.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

So I guess um yeah that's how we kind of deal with it is a there's a lot to take in but it's life yeah yeah life's hard in it you know people are I was always looking for life hacks and I think we spoke before and you know um I've been getting a lot of messages recently and I thought you know I I kind of take it with a pinch of salt but what do you do for this what do you do for that and and people want that short shortcut they do they just want that nobody cares what it nobody cares how the sausage is made they just want to fing eat it. And but unfortunately you know for us when you're living and breathe it you have to under that jokes but but you do you have to understand every process and enjoy that enjoy the you know enjoy the suffering you know because there's a massive part of that and we're all we're all you know stoic and we all we all kind of read these things and live our lives by certain values and quotes and and I think again there's a lot to be said about that and about hardships and enduring you know and and and the whole I could pull out a whole plethora of Chad kind of sayings and quotes about you know diamonds and how they're fused but it is you've got to you've got to jump in both feet and like Louis said we're super passionate about this and we want this brand to inspire people. It's an aspirational brand you know it's and inspire people for different reasons as well whether it's just getting out onto the mountain whether it's training you know and posting things up and probably people might look at our Instagrams and we are very different and you know from a personal point of view but why post that or why show people that you're training and why do you know because it's some people need that motivation they need that kick up the arse that you know they need that oh what what am I doing? I'm watching other people's lives I'm I'm watching my own life kind of slip away through my fingers and it's you know yeah you've got two lives the second begins when you realize you have one life and just crack on mate it just honestly just so how do you motivate yourself then so what what where does that fire come from so you know you are a regular trainer you are um always busy with that how where does the motivation come from and when it isn't there what do you do I I always say remove remove motivation for for discipline and training for me like the from the outside looking people don't get to see my motivation stood here at four o'clock kind of the days coming to an end and I'm like I've got to train I have to train I've just you know I don't see I put it into my kind of routine and it's not a case of you know I don't really overthink it I again just get in the next thing is right I'll just get into my I'll just get into my force range get it get in there I'll have a coffee all right I'll go down and I'll train and and you just make make it a part of of that routine and and and habit really um but remove motivation because motivation comes and goes you know and if you rely ultimately on motivation for everything then you're gonna have days where you're not motivated I I sometimes I you know you wake up in the morning like it's a hard day today or you're waking up early or you've got to do this and you know just stay dedicated and hold yourself accountable.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

I think when I you know when I wake up I've got I've I'm turning up it's not just you know me that's relying on on me and my output it's it's Louie it's it's you know it's my missus it's the kids it's it's um you know the guys at work you know ultimately we're responsible for everything not just yourself yeah know thyself right you you know I'm the same in many ways I had this conversation recently with uh with Kaz my wife and uh she was like you know you you know why why do you train so much now you know you we we're having a conversation about you know aesthetics and I was like I I don't train for aesthetics as you can probably tell um but you uh you know I train because that's who I am I just I I like to train and and if I'm not training four times a week I am grisly yeah and I start to think less of myself because and where that comes from is years of habits of just doing right um to that end and again this is another question that people have a number of people have put in conscious that both of you are managing this situation right now is that when the injuries come in because it is so much a part of your identity self-identity not to project it outwards but self-identity that that that projection is just of give giving people an insight into your life you're not doing it to so people see you train and blah blah blah it's part of who you are so when you're injured I know Louis dealt with a long term injury stars more recent short term one but what you know how are you managing that if it's part of your self-identity uh I guess it well it's difficult isn't it with any injury and um mine was reasonably difficult um so yeah um just so everybody else I broke my kneecap um pretty savagely doing something through dark probably 18 months ago now it must have been just after our last podcast actually yeah just after did you did you sue them?

SPEAKER_01 42:29

No it didn't well through dark yeah I don't I don't think we're insured so I I don't know it's difficult isn't it the obstacle is the way I think you find a way around it you know you you might necess not necessarily be able to train your body you train your mind so I think that whole time when I was severely injured at the start I just read a load of books you know and just really tried to take in as much information as I could you know exercise you exercise your brain what what can I do now in this situation well I can read I can learn I can develop in other ways right yeah exactly so I think that's that's part of it and you just do what you can um there's no doubt as uh self-critically I think looking back at some of the stuff I've done I I've gone too far at uh points try to overtrain when I haven't been fully recovered which is a big mistake but um only through enthusiasm to get better so I guess that's that's something and again I I I relate with that one billion percent and so isn't that a part of who you are as well you know that you know always again doing stuff probably before everything's perfect that is we've just described that with the business haven't we right you're not that waiting for that perfect moment isn't ever going to arrive so you sometimes have to do get the feedback ah it's too early or or not like with regards to your own injury at the minute Stars like how how's that affect you?

SPEAKER_00 43:45

I mean it's not not nowhere near on on kind of Louis scale and I'll be honest we've spoken about this myself and Louis you know um privately but I think I don't know how I would have reacted to that because training and working out is such a a big part of who I am and and I need it for my for my own coping strategy massively for stress for it's my kind of escape mechanism if things are getting on top of me I'll go for a run or go boxing or you know jujitsu now or or training you know jamborean what you know fill in the blank but I think yeah it's a massive massive part for me but you know and I'd like to think I I'd like to think that I would be quite stoic about that you know and we've read the same books and The Obstacle is away Ryan holiday and all these kind of good things but I generally don't know how I how I that would have affected me especially in the at the time and with with business And other stresses and stresses. Louis, you didn't have that escape mechanism that I had, and that must have been you know pretty difficult. But I mean I've got a small term kind of rib injury at the moment, minute that's three or four weeks.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Have you ever had a long-term injury? Yes, say neither have I. I've broken bones, but again, never professionally.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

I've had ribs, but I've had an issue with my my lower back. And again, Louis, you know, that's kind of why Louis left the the military. And I since found out when I left, I had kind of had it looked into privately and MRI scans, and it's it's very similar kind of injury to what to what Louis had. And um yeah, and I still get issues now with that where it flares up, but again, it's we're talking a few days, but in a proxin, and and I'm and I'm back in the mix again. Um yeah, it's it's a difficult one.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

What's your escape then, Louie? Like Staza's got his fizz, and you know, if things are getting too much, what I'm hearing is he can throw himself into that. So what's what's your kind of I talk again, I'll I'll explain. I I talk about third spaces all the time with people. So we've got most people got work and home. Like yours is a yours, both of yours is a blend. You are founder, owner, directors of this business. You you live and breathe. This home life for both of you is important. I know you've both got relationships you deeply care about, so you put time into those. But when when there's stress in either home or work, then you need this this output outlet sometimes for this. And and I I'm hearing with Stas, it's a number of things, but part of it is things he does with the kids, things he does with um, you know, you both got dogs, I I know, and and and so what's what would you say your third space is, Louie, with regards to getting rid of that work pressure, life stress.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

I think I threw it all back into through dark, and it's probably a bad thing. I don't know. There was a bit of a busting point actually, which um I think me and stars probably had a bit of a butt of heads, but for for a little bit literally no, not literally.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Um, I have that's why I asked.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Probably for for a lot of those reasons, you know, because I was just full on you can't bend it, pushing everything into through dark. So I guess sometimes if you haven't got an out, it all goes focused into one thing, which probably to some benefit, you know. There's yeah, there's definitely, you know, that hasn't come as a uh a negative thing for the business at all. But I think yeah, sometimes when you're completely 100% focused on one thing, then yeah, you've you've got no out and it probably flip your lid sometimes. But um yeah, I guess I didn't have one for a time there. And I think you can go into a bit of a dark place and kind of overload yourself with a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Um, but yeah, it's when when you did that, how did you get out of it then? Because again, a lot of people I I get approached by quite a lot of people that are overwhelmed with work, and clearly what you're describing there, things were becoming overwhelmed, but you managed it. And so what was the what was the what was it that made the difference there?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Uh I think a combination of things, probably just overcoming the obstacles that were in front of us and just getting it done, getting the job done, and then just talking to each other, because I think you've got to communicate it, you know, if you've got a drama, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back, and you just go, let's let's talk it out and and resolve any issues that you might have, but yeah, it's uh we're we're for the better for it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Well again, I'll I'll bring it up. Um, I know a few people have asked me about it. So with last time we chatted, it wasn't just us three, it was there was four. There were you know, there was Jay was in in in on the scene, he's he's not on the couch today, uh, and hasn't hasn't been for a a long period of time now. So um what's happened there?

SPEAKER_01 47:57

So I think you know it it saddens both of us, you know. I think um Jay had a lot of opportunities off the back of the last show, and he you know, he he absolutely skyrocketed. And I think um because he was getting a load a load of other opportunities, he kind of he he couldn't commit as much time as what he he he wanted to to through dark, and because of that, um I guess he had the option to you know to to do what what he wanted to do, and I think we kind of laid it out and and Jay's kind of chose to to you know go his own way, and uh I think we wish him all the best and hopefully he's you know he skyrockets doing uh what he's doing now. So yeah. Anything else on that stars?

SPEAKER_00 48:41

I I think Louis's pretty much you know c covered everything there. I just wish him wish him all the best, really. And it's it's always difficult when you start these things because you start as friends first and foremost, and then you have the business element, and as the business grows and the directions change, for me I just saw it as a a change of direction and and career and life path. And you know, Jay had those opportunities and it came down to a decision point of and Jay was quite honest, he was you know, he said, Look, I kind of want to go and scratch these itches over here and and explore these other opportunities, and if I do that, I can't commit fully to Through Dark, and I can't commit my as much time, energy, and resources I probably should do as a director, you know, and it's at that point where I guess it was uh it kind of just happened naturally where he had opportunities and you know he's he's off now and he you know it looks like he's doing well. Um yeah, nope, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Do you think it's pulled you two together even more again? You know, that ability to to you know, choose company, three the crowd almost with regards to the the key decisions. Obviously, you've got a very open floor here and the best ideas, whether it's the newest person of the team or one of yourselves, the best ideas, the best ideas, but ultimately somebody's got to make the decision.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

And do you think with the two pros and cons with that, you know, because two you know, I I get all that, but when you have that third person, it sometimes those small details or the small you know day-to-day decision-making points that need to be made. If me and Louis disagree on something, this could be zips, buttons, whatever, it could be the strategy, you know, it's sometimes good to have that third person there because you know ultimately I would trust you know two people's opinions or brains over my own opinion, and you have to succeed, you know, kind of succeed um um let that slide and just think, yeah, okay, I'm happy. I've been essentially outvoted here, and I'm happy. I'll you know I'll I'll run with that decision and back it. You know, I'll back you both. So it's good for that, but then you know, in other terms, yeah, sometimes it's you know it's easier to to manage between between the two of us because we ultimately know each other better.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. No, I I think it did let it left a gaping hole, you know. Um so I think it's it was unfortunate that it panned out the way that it was, and um we've made amends for it, you know. We had we had to, we had to fill some gaps and and kind of make it work. And and and if I look back now, some of the hires that we brought in since that since you know Jay leaving has has really helped the business grow. So I guess yeah, in the in in the aftermath of what happened, then it's come new again, you know. So it's it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

End your through adversity, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Endeavor through adversity, endeavor through adversity, yeah. Yeah, so it's it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Well, what about so what I'm hearing there is is you got and like that decision-making process that you just spoke about there, you know, you you welcome feedback, and that feedback might come from each other, it might come from you know your team, it might come through your partners, you know, and and I I hear this a lot, like a lot of people shirk feedback, they avoid even like very senior leaders, the the thing they avoid is feedback because and and that feedback loop that gets created from welcoming it, it's not always pretty, it's pretty sure between the two of you the feedback you're giving each other isn't always high fives and backslaps, right? So, so any tips of the people on how to deal with feedback better? Again, a critical part of managing an enterprise like this is is gotta be feedback, whether it's from the customer, the client, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:06

And people messaging your email saying, hey, this isn't living up to expectations, you know, like I think for me it's it comes down to kind of trusted opinions as well, and you can listen to too many people, too many voices. And uh, you know, yeah, I'm thinking I'm thinking for us, um, you know, before I went on the show, for instance, you know, we can touch on that in a bit. Come on to that, yeah. Um, it's obviously a big decision, big decision for me personally, uh, and also for the brand. There's a lot of things that me and Louie had to thrash out and talk through and and how that would shape and focus. And you know, Jade done it, can I do it again? How will it work? Would it work? And uh and all those kind of you know differences of opinions. And long story long, you know, I remember I rang two people, two people that I had, you know, that opinions that I trusted and valued. I didn't ring 10, 20, 30 people because it just ends up get getting messy. So surround yourself with those two kind of key people. You were one by the way.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

I was doing the sums there, I thought I definitely had a conversation. I wonder if this is going to get awkward and I'm not one of the two.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

But I think no, it it it does come down to that. I think a lot of people in those positions, and Loki, you you have to be thick skinned. You know, I'm thick skinned, Louis super thick skinned, and again, maybe that's from our body.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

I'm a dinosaur skin.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

No, it is, and I think you know, looking at back at uh reflecting on you know your career within special forces, you remember the debriefs, they're brutal, they're brutally honest, but it's a it comes from a good place, it comes from a place of everybody learning for the greater good, and and yet sometimes you you know it's not always pretty and you don't want to hear it massively.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

So, again, this is one of the things I'd talk about with business, seeking feedback and that feedback loop. Like one of the things I've I've I've worked with football on a couple of teams, you know, they they talk about the half-time team talk, and they're like in fact, the full-time team talk, they're like, nah, we we want to gather the evidence, we have to gather the data, and then we come back after a weekend and we we kind of sit down and we have that feedback. And it's and I'm and I'm like, well, you what about the time off that then people have where this gap and they're they're they're they're thinking and replaying things, they're they're getting feedback from Twitter, they're getting feedback from social media, they're getting feedback from match of the day, whatever it is, and then they're creating a narrative in their head before they've even had a chance. That immediate feedback is key, and it can be managed, right? There's nothing more traumatic than a friend, colleague, whatever getting shot, injured on the battlefield, and then having to deal with that in the moment, bit of hot debrief, and then going again the next day. And so it can be managed if it's managed well. I mean, again, you've got experiences there, and is that something that you've put into the business?

SPEAKER_01 54:38

I think it depends uh who you are as a person, how you take that feedback, and a certain calibre of person will take constructive feedback very well. I think I'm gonna quote our man Dylan Hartley here as well, because he said it well was um say it as you see it, and I think there's a load of benefits in that in the right arena. If you're a professional ahead of your game, then you should be able to take criticism right there, right then.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

There's a lot to be said as well about um and it probably you know comes from humility, but it you know the stakes are different, obviously, when you're when you're in the military, when you're in SF and you know uh you that pressure could because it's it's all the same in terms of pressure and then, but but you know, the stakes are clearly higher within the military, nobody's gonna hopefully nobody's gonna die here or catch a catch a bullet.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

But I think I've seen some of your BJJ sessions, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Getting bet you know um bent out of shape. But I think it's it all comes down to having um is it humility the right word? It's understanding that you know you're not gonna lose face if you know uh we do these run throughs and and things that happen in the business, it's having honesty and integrity. And remember we used to do run throughs in the kill house and running around or on a venue, you know, you'd come back, you'd have an initial hot debrief, and the instructors can only see so much, you know. And you've got two options here as a shooter. If you've made a mistake, you can either sit on that mistake and park it in your own brain and overthink it and over-analyse it, or the preferred option, in my opinion, is to out that mistake in front of everybody and say, listen, guys, you know, at whatever option, door, this, this. I fed up and I did this incorrectly. I did the incorrect drill, and I think I'm saying this because I want other people to learn, but also I have integrity here, you know, and that's important for myself and also for others to see that. And we've always been like that. Look, if I make a mistake, or you know, Louis, it's a case of that was a wrong call, you know. I thought it was the right at the time, you know, and this happens in business a lot. It's shit, you know. I'll be honest, I kind of hedged my bets there, and I was wrong. Probably should have gone with your option, Louis. And you can both learn from that as well. And I think as an individual level, I think that's pretty important.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

Do you are you conscious of that learning? So have you got a way of capturing that kind of lesson and making sure you don't do it again, or is it just shared communication? Have you got like any processes there that you're aware of?

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Uh we pre- yeah, so we are c we call it a pre-mortem um or put it to the test. Yep. Um, I guess yeah, before we do anything, we kind of we kind of go through some of the the the pitfalls, things that could potentially go wrong. So I guess we do that process kind of naturally now if it's if if it's an event or if it's you know something substantial that we need to talk through before we launch it, whether that be a new product or I don't know, a new website implementation of a strategy or something else like that. So yeah, put it to the test, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

TV show. Um you mentioned a little bit earlier about you know you that took a bit of a decision, it was a team decision. I respect that. Um we we did uh we did have that chat, and again it was interesting. Um I was probably my comments were well, I didn't think you needed it. I didn't think you needed the TV show, and obviously you did it anyway, so you never did listen to me, which is probably for the best. But uh, but you know, so what talk to us about that and what you can and kind of where how you see that helping and and well but let's talk about the process first. Let's talk about the show because again, a lot of people watched it. It's probably one of the for a certain for your key market, it's probably the most watched TV show in the country. So it's good exposure. So talk to us about the show and going into it, Stas. Well, firstly, the the conversations between you two about the two of you between even doing it.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

You're right. I think it was a process, and it was um, you know, the opportunity came out and and we saw this, you know, primarily as uh a business kind of asset, adding value to the business from a you know a PR perspective. Let's be honest. You know, it's not something that I particularly wanted to do from a personal level, you know. Um what's the you know the saying in I'd rather be rich and anonymous than rich and famous uh every day of the week. It's not about being Instagram famous, it's not about having followers, it's not about that. For us, it was a how can we utilize this opportunity for for the best for through dark and really elevate the brand in different areas? So that was the initial conversations, and then as we do, as Louis just mentioned, we pre-mortem everything. Okay, what's the most likely course of action, most dangerous, you know, what are the benefits, what are the negatives attached to that, you know? And I've had other things and other external pressures from you know personal and and and um you know missus and kids and all this kind of stuff as well to kind of to really make a an informed uh uh decision and an assessment of of that.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

Because there's putting your head above the parapet as a former SF guy owning a business, and then there's putting yourself on channel four on uh on primetime TV where everyone's gonna want to bring you down.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

It's a difficult decision, and you know what you've you you I've made my bet, I'll I'll lie in it, you know. And um I I guess we always it's not what we do, is it? You know, it's not what you know guys from our background do. You know, that's not what we join for, that's not why we enter, you know, UKSF and you know, we live in the shadows, we operate in the shadows, we're we're not looking for external validation, you know, we don't get those pats on the back from the newspapers and everything else. It's not about that, it's about the job, it's about the brotherhood, about the camaraderie, and it's about learning and developing and growing as an individual. But we've moved on now in so much in terms of the business. You know, for myself and Louis, we were semi-above the parapet in so much that we had uh you know Instagram accounts that were were public profile accounts. We had ThroughDark, you know, we had an open source information there with regards to our backgrounds, and and that was a big part of the business, a big driving factor of who we are, and what that is a massive USP for us as a business. It's utilising our experiences as operators, you know, that drives all the designs. It makes our nation unique as well, isn't it, right? Yeah, of course. And you know, so we'd already kind of made that decision ourselves consciously. And look, you know, if if you try and make everybody happy or make nobody happy, and ultimately you've got to do what's right for you or what you feel is is the right decision for you at the time, and you know, um no decision is a decision. And and I decided now I spoke to you guys and I respect your opinion, guys, massively. And you know, following that conversation, there were some really good points that came out of that, and I think you know it was managing that with everything else, and and me having to make a decision. It was a it was a tough decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Um what about the show? So talk to us about the show then. The the the enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

I did, I'll be honest. I enjoyed it. Um it comes with its own pressures and and and everything else. I mean, but I love this. I love stepping outside my comfort zone, I love challenging myself, I love putting myself up against other people, and for me, it's um it's what's the analogy like in football? It's like I was taking the penalty, you know. I've got everything to lose here. You you want to be the goalkeeper who's kind of if I make a save, that's amazing. Best case scenario. And for me, it was a case of you know, I kept I keep myself physically fit, but you don't know you're putting yourself into an arena to be physically tested, but also I've got these other things going on in terms of a role to play within, you know, the show and be in the mole and and kind of keeping my wits about me, gathering information, you know, trying to play the grey man or trying to be myself and move the light away from me and onto other people. So it's a weird, very weird diamond.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

People watching, people watching would assume that there's no pressure on you being in that show. And I and I know different. I know we're Strava mates, and uh, I know before the show started your your fizz game got ramped right up at a panic fizz, panic physically panic fizz getting thrown in there. Yeah, absolutely. Like you said you love that, and but it comes with genuine pressure. People would think that's it's not pressure, it's gonna be easy what they're easy than what they've done before, but we create these narratives, don't we? Well, and again, I know you were weathering wintering yourself in the waters before you got there, because it's like when was the last time you got on a freezing cold lock off the coast of Sky? You know what I mean? Long time ago, never. Um, and so you know, like how did you manage that pressure, or yeah, how did you manage that pressure?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

I think I manage that pressure through um information, you know, and information is key, and and and again, worries and misuse of imagination. If you don't know what's happening, and and big up to all the other recruits that were on that show, because genuinely, you know, everybody says it, they only show such a small snippet, you know, over that kind of uh six series. Um, you know, there's loads of beastings, loads of things that are happening in between tasks and you know, food and sleep deprivation and all sorts that just don't make the cut, you know. So there's I I we've all been there, those armchair worries sat there thinking, why are they so tired? And what's what's wrong with these people? I could do that. We all have an element of that about us, but I I was armed with the information. I knew um before I went in and before that kind of um kind of closed door thing happened, and then I came out, stars in your eyes, and mole off I go. And I couldn't have a day-to-day narrative with the DS, you know, I couldn't and I found that quite difficult, you know, knowing the guys, not trying to, you know, not have that kind of connection, keeping my you know, eye contact to a minimum, um, and and but having that information and knowing what was coming, breaking down each each stage and each challenge and uh and and and when we're gonna be beasted, how we're gonna be beasted, you know, I I generally knew what was happening and what was coming, and and that's quite a nice feeling, you know. Whereas I guess if you don't know what's happening or what's coming, you know, you're always on edge, that adds to your you know, uh your worry and your concern.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

Uh how tough was it?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Um honest answer from me personally, and and this isn't full of ego or or bravado, you know, where you we are we are used to this, we're accustomed to this, we're accustomed to being you know, fatigued, uh sleep deprived, to being cold, wet, hungry. You know, we've spent the best part of for me 13 years doing that and being paid to to be in those positions and those situations. We have been in a lot worse conditions than that. I guess um for me personally, uh I I didn't find it physically difficult or mentally difficult. I just I just found it quite frustrating at points and at times just kind of you know um but you've got to caveat that with with our experience and who we are, you know, that does that does you know lend itself quite quite well to you know essentially being in in the incident pit.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

What about yourself, Louie, watching your mocker on the on the box and the fears that the business might have with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

I was just listening into that because I I enjoyed Stars talking about it, but um, I think that first thing that it came up when we when Stas made the decision, I say we fucking know Stas' decision and it and it had to be, um, was that we had to take into consideration um Jay um first and foremost, and Stars, you know, touch base with him and just made sure look, it you you are good with it. So I think that's the first thing that happened. And then um the discussion point got down to yeah, raising your head above the parapet and and whether that pinch is worth the squeeze. And I got told this by one of our friends before, and I I'll use his nickname, it's Raggie. Um, and he said, Top bloke, yeah, you can't spend your life being a carpenter and then tell everybody you've never touched wood, you know. So I just I love I love that. So it's like and it is you know, to to a degree when you've when you've turned a page and you've come out, I get I get I get the whole thing, you know, everything that Stas said about you know respecting you know your former work colleagues, you know, that runs deep, deep. Um, so I guess we've just got to be conscious of of of that, and and that's that, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

So uh I love Raggie. And um one of the things that I still use to this day, he always spoke about his ha ha needle. How high is the ha ha needle right now, you know, and that like morale, you know, morale is really important. And on the show uh Stanis, were there points when your ha ha needle was was uh pretty low?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

Um no, mate. Look For me, I I you know I wear my heart on my sleeve and and I can't pretend to be somebody that I'm not. So I kind of went in with the you know the the the process of I I'm not gonna play the grey man, I'm not gonna pretend to be somebody I'm not, I'm not gonna sit on the on the bed space, ignore everybody, you know, because for me that would have been obvious. So I went in and like I kind of jumped both feet in and and and enjoyed that process and and got to know the the recruits and as individuals, as people, as as I would uh from a personal point of view, so try and understand them. And there was nothing fake there, really. It was me being me.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

Did you, apart from the cover story, did you have a uh cover story with regards to the prison of uh prison officer, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

Yeah, so the prison officer thing is it it comes from my brother, you know. My older brother, he's um Andrew, he's uh worked in the prison service for 15 six probably gone on 16 years now. So um, unbeknown to me at the time, I think they they sprung it on me just before we were going in that there were two ex-cons that were going that were going, it should have been a mechanic. But it's it's one of those things that I'd I'd kind of spoke to my brother at length about cover story and everything else, and you know, it it is what it is. And but generally speaking, people are in their own world of hurt, you know, and everybody says to people in the recruits, you must have pink stars, you must have known that he was this and that. And everybody is genuinely in their own world of hurt and just concerning themselves with what the task is, how they're doing, and trying to survive and get to that next point.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:50

Everyone's wise on the armchair, aren't they? You know, we're sat in armchairs now, it's not lost on me, but everyone watching the TV show, watching the shows, wise, aren't they? Ah, like why are they quitting so early? Surely they spotted this, surely they spotted that. And you know, when you don't know until you do, do you? That's why we're talking about the common thread here is get experiences. And the only way you get experienced is by genuine experiences. You can't get that by watching TV shows, you can't learn how tough it is by watching TV shows.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

And I'll be honest, the course in itself is uh it's authentic. And that was one of the biggest kind of shocks for me. Is you know, I went into into here, no kind of TV experience or background and kind of suck it and see. Went in and, you know, generally speaking, there's no right start, stop, take two, right, guys, stop there. We kind of fluff that up, we need to rerun that, we need to do that again. In fact, can you say this? Uh, you know, Ant, stop, great speech, do it again. We need you to say this. There's absolutely none of that. It is ran. It is essentially a course that is ran, you know, from Ant to you know, Foxy and Billy and Mel, the DS, you know, and and the and the the show, the channel, the Minnow films and everybody are there, and all they're doing essentially is facilitating the filming of what is a course. And when you're in it, you you're in it, you're ingrained in it. And all these, you know, kind of on-rig, you're just little cameras everywhere, which is a bit big brothery, but you know, you kind of know they're there, but after a few days, you do kind of start forgetting about that and you start fully immersing yourself in what you're doing and that experience. And off-right yeah, there's cameras running around, and you know it's being filmed, but you know, generally speaking, it's it's super authentic and big up to the lads. And Ant's done a fantastic job as that, you know, the chief instructor role and and Foxy and Billy and having great people, you know, as a support team, everybody around there, you know, it's um that's not an easy task and not an easy job to do, you know, and he's he he works that really well. And I think there's uh a bit of credit where where credit's due. It's not easy, and I think most people think that that they could potentially do that. I could do a bit of that. There's always that, isn't there? I could do it, I can do what you do, you could do what I do. But it's not, it's difficult, and it's um, but I thought it was it was an authentic experience. Um, difficult, no, more frustrating than difficult. I'm talking, you know, probably because of our backgrounds, and it's not because I'm double Red Ninja, it's not that. Um, it is because of the kind of the way that we've been brought up and the way that we can manage stress and and everything else.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

Happy you did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Yeah, yeah, I'm happy. You know, it's experiences, it's life experiences, it's you know, nothing grows in the comfort garden, all that kind of good stuff. And you know, we're always looking to challenge ourselves, you know, through again now. Jiu Jitsu, we touched on it earlier and all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

I was about to say talk about super hard ninjas, um Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

This is something that I've been interested in for personally for quite a long time, and I know Louis, we've always spoken about it, and you know, again, managing time and balancing time. And at the start, when we're in the business, yeah, again, spinning plates and a jiu-jitsu plate, just was no room for one of those plates. And I think you know, I've always heard really good things about it, and I I like the ethos behind it. I like the you know, that white belt, you're always a white belt, you're always learning, you're always being humble, you go onto the mat, and you know, it's about humility, it's about learning, it's about each other, and and for us, it was a case of now that we have grown into you know a bigger beast and we've got more resources, more time, it was a case of you know putting it out to the shop floor to the lads as well. You know, would you be interested? It's something that we're gonna provide, you know, as a business to you guys as a bit of a give back, and it's the uh end of week, Friday, kind of a bit of an earlier finish. Let's all get on the mats, roll around, and you know, if if I have pissed off anybody on the bottom floor, they get a chance to choke me out.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:13

That's that's leadership in a nutshell right there. Survival. So that's that's it. Put it to bed. Um, I love that. The uh the whole investing in your colleagues kind of the contribution there, uh that that's what it screams to me. You know, we mentioned it right at the start of this chat, uh, creating an environment and what you've done, whether you've done it by design or whether it's just who you are, you've created an environment where you're I'm sure, and I'll I'll get a chance to hopefully speak to them a bit later. Um you know, your your your colleagues, your team, you know, are feeling invested in. And and you know, Friday, Friday finish, roll around on the mats, you know, you you're not making it up yourself, you're getting in um experts, local experts who are who are kind of training you, and you know, that white bend mentality. This is all if if people take nothing away from all of this, I mean I've I've lost count of the amount of time we've we've spoken about experiences, but using that white belt mentality and mindset to always be learning, developing. It's one of the things we took from the first um podcast. I said it right at the start, always learning first, and you're applying this through on everything that you do, and and having we mentioned also third spaces, you know, this BJJ for a lot of people is one of those things that's a third space. You can see your own growth, you can see your own progress as contribution.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

You're you've got a community of people that you're developing with, and and I mean, I absolutely love it, you know, as a as a as a I think that's generally the type of people that we are, and I can't speak for myself, but I think you know, I'm 37 years old, you know, I I'm looking good. Look at moisturizing. We I'm comfortable in in kind of where I am, and and you and we naturally do this, you kind of air towards your strengths and you air towards what you're good at, you know. And Emily, if you're a good runner, you'll you'll dial in on that, and you know, but I'm a really good runner, or or fill fill in the black box in. And and for me, it was a case of opening yourself up again to be, you know, to be exposed and to learn. And I think that's being having that growth mindset should never stop. And and you you're never too late to start anything, whether it's a a career transition, whether it's a fitness journey, whether it's martial arts, and you know, a big shout out, what just be before I I do forget to to Sam uh at Re-org, and you know, everything that Sam's done is sensational in terms of opening that that community within the military and introducing BJJ to people and uh as an outlet as well, which we spoke about at the very start, and and having an outlet to train for me, that's my mind space is training and and the jiu-jitsu now and and an offering that art. And it was actually Sam who you know we've worked done some stuff with, and and we're always trying to kind of help other people and charity-based stuff through our connections and our like sort of network through Sam. And it was Sam who came down and introduced us to the jiu-jitsus, and I and you know, looking back, pulling out excuses, we've all got injuries, niggling injuries, and we had that worry of can I do it? You know, look at Louis's knee and you know, backs and my knees, and oh, I don't know if I should do it, it's injury, and but it wasn't about that. And I'm super thankful for Sam. And he opened up his network then to you know, Jimmy, big big shout out to Jimmy Johnson from you know Phoenix MMA as well for taking you know coming down here and you know, bringing his wealth of experience and knowledge and and and and and passing that on to us. It's um you know, we're grateful for that. But it's you do end you do have that process to go through in your own head. I've I've maybe got too much to lose here, and I could end up with egg on my face, and it's a pride thing, isn't it? But you know, it that is pride for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

What's Louie for yourself that journey with that BJJ intro into something new world? What's what's that for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

Yeah, it was fine until I got choked out by the fulfillment staff. Yeah, that was great. Um no, I think uh so I think it it it helps with that heritage thing for us. It's hard to bleed across that special forces ethos into what we do. Now they're gonna get that from mean stars to a degree, but physically, yeah, you know, you ain't gonna get that. But I think there are similarities with the kind of way that the community is built around BJJ and just the humility and the community sort of spirit, and just holding high standards, always being, you know, uh learning new skills and and leveling up and just like that progress. So I guess there's a lot to be taken from that because there's not only a military military sort of side of things, it the ethos is quite special forces in a way.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:21

It's so that humility, isn't it, being humble? I think this is why I think it's important as something that I will push is the wrong word in terms of your own children and and passing on uh those golden nuggets and and information and and and hardships, you know. I think I don't know what your thoughts are on this, guys, and the way that the world it kind of ebbs and flows, and you can't say this, don't do that, you know. And and we're breeding a soft culture, a soft mindset, and and and I and I don't like that. And I think it's it's important to you know let your children. I think I heard on a podcast about it's understanding, letting them get to that level of of potential pain and and suffering and hurt, just enough that they can they'll hurt themselves when they land, but but not bad, you know. But it enough to they make them learn and understand and and go through that. You they have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:09

Couldn't agree more, you know. I I I I look back on my childhood. What gave me an awful lot of experiences is that falling over and and learning from that, picking myself up, dusting myself off. It's a practical, it's a verb, right? Resilience is a verb, you know. You've got to pick yourself up, you've got to dust yourself off, and that comes from falling over. If you're never allowed to fall over, then where's the opportunity? So, you know, do I push my kids over? No, I'm not just saying that out loud, but do I allow them to trip and oh, I've got this, I'll show you this video afterwards of my daughter coming off a swing yesterday. How she's not broken a bone, I don't know. But you know, she wanted to do something, try it. I was like, not sure about that, and and it went wrong. She won't do it again. She's all right, and but I think it's important to have that option, and again, give them the opportunity to, which is the same as what you're doing with your colleagues, you're giving them an opportunity to just test themselves. You know, there's like BJJ is one of those sports, you have to leave the ego at the mat. If you go in there, you know, you've got high expectations straight off the bat, you're gonna learn lessons quick and you're gonna get your gas turned off, and that doesn't end well, and then you go, right, okay, I've got a lot to learn. It's it's it's humbling, and I think it's good to be humbled because we are flesh and bone, and there's there's everyone in any sector you go into, and again, we apply this to your business, but any sector you go into, there's bigger fish, and there's people that you can learn from. You know, you might think you're the best in the business, but you you find somewhere somebody that can help you, and if you know that white belt mentality is exactly that. So I I love that, and I and I and I love seeing it on a on a Friday with you, you you and the guys getting involved. So uh all respect to you. Um gonna start wrapping this up, you know, and um, and I'm thinking about things that you want to pass on, you know, from from your experiences over the last it's been four years now, is it three and a half years, through docks, kind of it's over three years anyway. It's over three years, it makes sense. Three to four, yeah, you know, and and and kind of thinking about the things that you know, there's a lot of there's an audience following you, there's an audience interested in what you're doing, and you know, it's great, but also you know, there's a part of there's lessons to be learned from what you're doing for people rather than just watching, getting involved in stuff. You know, there's I hear it, that's why I love having these chats because I I pick up things all the time, I apply into myself and I I try and steal things and I use things, and I know you're the same. So, you know, for people listening, you know, what what should they be doing? What rather than just watching you, what you know, what what advice can you give them?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

Uh get stuck in. Um, yeah, I think uh if you uh another one is probably yeah, if you want to go go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together is one of those uh lines that we probably use quite a bit. It's uh that building people around you to help it help each other out. Um, but yeah, I suppose a lot of it's drive for me. It's like just focus on one thing and just give it your all, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:55

Yeah, um, I'd have to yeah, I agree with that. And I think you know, if we can, we'll touch a little bit on the business side. I know people are interested in the business and where we're heading and what the growth and the strategy and what the plans are. We do have strategies in place and business and and other people to rely on, but ultimately it's you know, it's it's our vision, it's our goal to create more products, it's Kaizan, it's that constant improvement, it's looking at the current products and and improving, it's looking at future products and and and really trying to scope out where we can fit into our own space. And um, you know, there's a lot of things happening, and you know, massive thanks to everybody. We've got such a loyal kind of customer-based support group and and customers, and you know, ultimately without people kind of supporting and believing in what we're trying to do here, you know, you you you essentially wouldn't have a business. And I think you know, the pandemic came with it its own issues and dramas and and everything else. I think we were probably more luck than judgment again. We were in a good place in terms of stock and still being you know able to fulfil orders, you know, uh on on a lean workforce, you know, talking sort of myself and Louis and and everything else. But it's um, you know, we have got big scopes and big plans to kind of you know, the flagship stores and stuff for kind of you know, wetsuits, warm weather, gear. We we've we've got so many ideas and plans and samples that are uh are running through currently at the moment. So it's exciting. I'm excited, you know. For me, uh it's kind of at times just slow down, speed racer and and try to try and check check myself. And you know, uh that's probably one of the big things I've learned from the business is trying to kind of manage my expectations and uh and everything else there. And you know, I kind of want it now, I want it quicker, and and understanding that people work differently to you is it's been a big problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:30

So what I've heard through this, lads, you know, how you compliment each other, it's it's it's awesome to see it genuinely is for the for people listening. You know, how can you know? I know you want you, you know, you're not so blunt to say just go buy our gear, because that's not just what you're interested in. How can they get involved? Where can they support you? What is it that they could do to really get involved and and not get more through Doc, be more through DOC, join the Brotherhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:55

I guess I hope it happens naturally through um, I guess our good our biggest connection is is is social media, um, which is uh you know a fantastic asset to to have, really. Um so yeah, it's gonna come across naturally with that. And I and I hope from a day-to-day basis, just the what we're doing inspires other people to do uh something, you know, at l you know, get out of bed in the morning at the very minimum, you know, uh at the most, maybe go and climb Everest, I don't know. But um there's a there's a broad spectrum there, isn't there, of things that we should be aspiring people to do. And um I guess just just follow us, follow the journey that we're on, and you know, hopefully you uh you look up to us and thank you for that. And um and yeah, probably learn from some of our mistakes when we make them. And uh yeah, yeah, just follow the journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

I think from a business perspective as well, maybe you know, little nuggets is it's it's you know, uh don't just you know stop and and pay attention to every you know every dog that barks. I think you know you're always gonna get people that you know negative, we call them you know one percenters, people that uh don't fully understand, and it's not necessarily their issue. Maybe we need to project differently about how the business grows and bits and pieces. And I think a lot of people day-to-day see things and it's expensive, it's this, and but not understanding processes from uh fabric sourcing to business day to day to you know website management, content creation to you know um where the garments are made as well and manufactured, and our standpoint on the ethics around that and and outsourcing to you know far east factories, which you know we don't want to do, and it's all about maintaining that quality of product as well, but also understanding that you know we're always improving and always trying to you know gleam information from you know from people as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

Yeah, I think it's that that that integrity, and I think that if if you listen to this podcast, it's probably because you want more information and you're one of those one of those kind of people that does want to know about a brand and uh and everything that it's about. And I guess if you are that person, you understand it already, you know, you know why the quality is there and why the the you know the price is the way that it is, and um, I guess yeah, just hopefully those the people that are listening that they want to be part of the brotherhood and yeah grow with us. Now I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:04

And sisterhood coming soon, coming too, more sisterhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:07

Love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:07

Um I'm I'm loving the journey, lads. Again, it's uh it's inspiring watching both of you uh grow, learn, develop this brand that's kind of becoming more and more recognized. I did a bit of a Google search yesterday before I came down just to see how things were progressing on that front and the amount of information that's out there about you too. You say you've put your head a little bit above the parapet. I don't know if you've done a Google search recently, but there's a lot of information out there, a lot of articles, there's a lot and a lot of information about your brand, and it's it's inspiring to see it grow. Um and thanks for your time today, Megar. Appreciate always learning myself. Um, I think there's a lot of people watching, uh, and I know you do a good job of annoy uh ignoring the naysayers, but there's a lot of people supporting you as well. So uh all credit to you, lads.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:51

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:52

Nice one.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:53

Thank you, mate.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:54

Appreciate it.