The Duratus Mind - Simon Jefferies - Former Special Forces now Mindset Coach

The Duratus Mind - A podcast exploring all things mindset and motivation.  Gaz, a former Special Forces Sergeant Major but now performance consultant, opens up his network to try and understand what motivates some to risk so much, why some are so driven, and what it really takes to achieve success in any sector.

Today Gaz talks to Simon from The Natural Edge.  Simon and Gaz served together on a number of deployments and have a lot of common thinking - but have never kicked some of these issues around before.  

The Natural Edge was formed in 2017 but the journey for them started several years earlier when Simon Jeffries and John Sykes-Popham met during their military service.

Both started out as Royal Marine Commandos before moving into the world of UK Special Forces with John serving as a Special Forces Communicator (SFC), and Simon as a member of the SBS.

TNE combines elite military experience with cutting edge neuroscience and psychology to help individuals remove limitations, and forge peak performance.

Follow Simon on all social media platforms @thenaturaledge or their website www.thenaturaledge.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Sai, how are you doing? Yeah, good thanks, mate. Um episode I don't know what of uh the Duratus Mind podcast, but you're someone that from the very beginning I've had on the list, and you're also someone that repeatedly turns up from my listeners saying, When's Simon getting on? When's Jeff's getting on? So, mate, really pleased that you're here to uh to sort of uh open your mind and share with you some of your thoughts on on the this common interest that we've got. So, mate, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah, good to have you, mate. We've uh just for everyone's in um overview, Sai and I have got similar backgrounds, but and we're going in similar directions. So, Cy, do you mind giving people for those that might may not know who you are, a little bit of an insight?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, so well, thank you for having me on. Um my background, so obviously we met so joined the Marines at 24, so it was a bit later. I did um uni and some traveling first, joined the corps, did a year in the general corps, then did selection for SFCs, so special forces communicator, which is when I met you, so it was attached to the squadron that you were working in, then subsequently went and did full selection and finished out my career down at pool, left, kind of did everything that I wanted to do, decided to take the move and leave, even though I wasn't completely sure of how that would look. I it was a combination of ticking the boxes that I'd wanted to have ticked, and then getting more balance with not being away all of the time. And sort of, I think even quite soon after I'd passed selection, I started to get the itch again of what's the next challenge, what's the um the next sort of way to step out of my comfort zone. Ended up getting a job in London for a couple of years in a consultancy, but realised very quickly that it was not for me, and so decided to, and we can dig into how that came about, to go down the path of business and specifically online business. Again, didn't know how it would look, but knew that that was the right path. Set on that with um another guy, John, that I was um a signaller when we were signallers together down at Pool. And we've kind of been on that path ever since, and it it's meandered. We did the the classic sort of and made the mistake in the beginning of just chasing trying to make money, which didn't go well, basically failed, to then switching to what do we actually care about, which is and what we what have we always been interested in, which essentially is health and and human performance, and so then set up the natural edge. Um that again has been a meandering route, which has led to the point we are now, which is specifically concentrating on mindset coaching. Um, and I guess in general coaching, because we're very much of the view that you can't separate, even though we concentrate on mindset, you have to look at the other factors around that in the same way that whatever aspect you look at with health, you cannot divorce all the other aspects. If you're looking at your training, then you must look at your sleep, your nutrition, your movement, your stress levels, your mindset, and conversely, with each one of those that I've just mentioned there, every other one has an impact, and so you can't divorce them. So, although it's majority mindset coaching, when we're working with clients, we will then look at lifestyle factors as well that may be hindering the work around the mindset and how we can make changes there.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

You know, there's a there's a ton of stuff already that I want to ask from from that. Um, but you mentioned mindset coaching. Clearly, it's a space that uh I'm in too, and the reason I'm in it, and again, you'll know this, but for some people listening, um, one of my last roles in UKSF, um I had to try and understand the kind of person that we were looking for. Um, and so I surveyed the people we had, and one of the questions that I asked them was the selection process as a physical versus mental challenge, what's the balance, you know, kind of in a percentage? And again, I'm gonna I'm not gonna have access to the exact numbers, but it the the opinion was it's around 75-80% mental versus a physical challenge, which is a massive surprise to people preparing for it generally because people think this is a physical test. What I learned from that is this this mindset, and that's the difference of the people that are successful versus potentially the people that are unsuccessful. Um you'll know this, and that model, that thinking applies whether it's like we've just said there in our former careers, people applying for a massive challenge in special forces or business people that want to be the top of their game in their then their law firm, in the top of their game, in their private equity firm, in the top of their game, whatever they do. It's it's about getting that right, getting that aligned. So that's that's also known as Pareto's principle. So again, it's interesting this 8 to 20 rule that keeps popping up. But um, I also hear from yourself um a lot of navigating uncertainty there, an awful lot of I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but I'm gonna try anyway. So, and I'm I know that a lot of people listening to your, you know, there's five or six chapters to what you've just described, and you just cantered through them. So, how and how did you prepare yourself to the massive challenges, each different chapter, that unknown, that that that that area of doubt, because nobody starts some of those processes going, I'm gonna smash this and knock it out of the park. Nobody. So, how did you prepare yourself for that firstly?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah, I think so. I can distill it down to two core things, however, within each of those, and you can also there are other factors at the time, but if you really wanted to simplify it down, it is one a complete alignment with your I guess ideal self and acting in accordance with that, i.e. your your goals, your values, basically who you see yourself as and how you want your life to look, and then approaching setting out to achieve that using process and systems and habits to achieve that. Exactly what you've talked about there with so selection, the whole and I agree it is so I agree that it's 80% or whatever the figure is predominantly mindset after you've got the base physical level. So everyone that turns up, obviously, you need to have a base physicality to be able to cope with the loads you're carrying, etc. But you know, the the 200 odd guys that always start the selection process have already passed infantry training, whatever, so at that level, so it is pretty much down to mindset. Um, you know, and so many things always surprise me when you're on selection of things that would would break people, and more often than not, and it's the same as general military training, it's never usually the intense physical challenge, whether that's say the commando tests in or P company or on selection, say, you know, hard physical stuff on the ranges, it's the more mundane admin discomfort around that, the small stuff, the boring things that pe that break people, um, lack of feedback as well is a massive one that I see broke or meant that led to people quitting on selection because you get very little feedback in the jungle, um, which is essentially the crux of selection. People defeat themselves in their heads because they can't handle not knowing how they're doing, and because it's such a hard environment and you're always messing up. You if you're not comfortable with why you're there and are prepared to stay there no matter what, then you just end up leaving, and so that that's sort of the core point, understanding truly who you are, and that for most people isn't that's not something that some people know and some people don't. Yes, we all have different genetic traits and our personalities, and some people find it easier to perhaps to figure that stuff out, but in general, it takes work, and that's probably the core thing to understand idea to understand the mindset. Mindset is a skill like anything else, and it takes active work in the same way that you'd approach physical training, it's not just something that you can think about now and again, it has to become an absolute core part of your lifestyle, and so that work. So, for instance, when I left the military, up until that point I knew that the military was all that I wanted to do from when I was very young, and that's something that I can't really tell you where that came from. That was maybe it was growing up in the countryside, whatever it is. I just held onto that idea and it became a core part of my identity, and so life became you like to play with action, basically. Exactly. Basically, I think I probably watched too many Arnie films in the 80s sneaking down to VHS recording, Predator, my parents. So for whatever reason I had that. Then when I left the military, although I I knew that I'd finished that chapter and I wasn't sure the next one was. I thought perhaps maybe you know, doing that consultancy type role or sort of a city job might be it. When I realized that wasn't it, I started carrying around a notepad, and I'd I'd actively be thinking about what I can do, Googling different job options, reading lots of different books, just jotting things down, ideas all the time, constantly having that percolating, making it an active process, not people don't you don't stumble on significance as a quote. I can't remember by who. You have to actively pursue who you want to be. Um, and I was sat, I can tell I was sat on a bus going into work and I was reading Tim Ferris's four-hour work week. And funnily enough, I tried to read that book a few years before when I was in the military. I got about the third of the way through because it just didn't it didn't resonate, didn't connect. I was like, I can't, doesn't this doesn't mean anything to me at that point. When I was reading it at this point, different stage of life, it just made sense. And you know, you can get in, I don't actually buy into a four-hour work week completely, but when I was reading that book, I had an epiphany moment on that bus where it was online business because and it had two rules that set myself straight away. It has to be geographical freedom. So I want to be able to just have a laptop and be able to work from anywhere in the world to allow me to live however I want around that, and it has to be scalable. I want to get to the point where it's not direct time for money, so whether it's online courses or whatever it was, and it clicked like absolute, complete clarity of that was the way I could be my own boss and work from that. And again, I didn't know how it would look, but I knew that that was the core belief, so I had that, and then I knew, which again we can dig into from very early on in the military. Something I picked up on was the 1% rule, which I first read about with Clive Woodward, then termed marginal gains by Dave Brailswood with Team Sky. And I've always applied that since, and so I knew once I've got that core idea, all I need to do is focus on the process and it will work itself out. If I have I've got the aim, but that's it, I'm not gonna now dwell on that. That's set my direction. Now I'm gonna spend all of my time on the process and just iterate and learnt so many lessons within that in itself. But I think those are two core attributes. If you really know who you are and what you value, and that is so different for all of us, it's completely individual and subjective. And the reason why it's quite hard, I think, is you have to divorce societal expectations, peer expectations, and do what you think is right, not what you think other people will think is right, and then layering in and understanding how to use habits and um systems and making the environments around us work for us as much as we can, as opposed to trying to rely on willpower and motivation, which is they're tools, and if you understand how to use them correctly, they're very powerful. But just trying to use those is probably never going to work.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah, well, I couldn't agree more. Um we we we know this, we've we've just spent a couple of hours chatting, we're on the same page on so many ways. I'm really keen. The the purpose of this podcast is to keep hammering home this message to the people that listen, the people that want to know, and the people that are on the right path but sometimes feel that they're not um exactly that. And and I guess you've achieved that in a number of areas. So I guess knowing like Socrates, I'm not gonna profess to be the world's greatest philosopher or the deepest knowledge on philosophy, but you know, Socrates said know thyself. And again, it's one of those sayings which I repeat to people time and time again. How are you finding ways when I'm coaching with people? Uh, how are you finding ways to get feedback? How are you finding ways to know that you're you you you you're doing what you want to be doing? Have you sat down and actually written out, and then it's important, we think in ink, we we sit down and think about what we want to do and why. And have you from the very first big challenge that you bit off, let's say joining the Royal Marines, is that something that you were um doing consciously, or is it something that was more subconscious?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I think it is it's probably it was a mix of both, it's subconscious. Looking back and joining the dots, I definitely did mindset-centric things that we now teach as an active process. Probably, you know, perhaps I'd picked it up for books, for example. So joining the corps, I knew that was what I wanted to do. You go down for your PRMC, have those three days, and they give you a copy of the Globe and Laurel. Um, which for anyone, it's basically a magazine, monthly magazine that tells you what's going on in the Royal Marines. Um, so I had that, and then you have a few months before you're actually gonna go back and join. And within that magazine, you have um a picture of the King's Badgem, which is the King's Badge awarded to best recruit for each troop. You're gonna be a King's Badgman, aren't you? Yeah, the previous troop. And I um so I saw that, and without sort of knowing it, I embedded a sort of visualization process as in not only did I want to join, I you know, I was like, how can I get to the I basically not only want to go through training, I want to do as well as I can, and it's not something I never communicated, I never said that to anyone, never communicated it ever, but internally that was what I was picturing like how can I be the best even within that arena, and then again breaking it down during training itself process. Um, and some of it got taught, you know, there's a great tip. There's a guy, I don't know, he's he's called Alexi, and he'd come in and do this sort of mindset things the nod whisperer. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, yeah. Um, and he, you know, simple one for admin tasks. Obviously, you've got so much admin to do, and it can become overwhelming, and people task switch and it's not efficient, just as simple as write out every single task on a post-it note or a piece of card, and then you shuffle them up, and then you turn over the first one, whatever it is, you do it till it's completed, you put it down. Next one, and so it gives you like a singular focus, and you tick them off, saves time is much more efficient. So, simple things like that. So, I think all of this kind of stuff, and then as I went through my career and started becoming more and more interested in human performance, in mindset, reading books, listening to podcasts, and then started. So, that's where I came across the phrase the 1% and Clive Woodward with the 2003 Rugby World Cup team. And sort of from that point, I applied that philosophy throughout my career very much in the uh mindset of or philosophy of that there's broad principles when it comes to mindset and health, but every one of us is an individual, and so through coaching and self-experimentation, or however you do it, you need to work out the fit that is right for you. There's a you know, in reality, there's a thousand and one ways to approach health or mindset. You and I are quite similar in our approach, it works for us, and there will be certain people that resonate with us in the way we teach it, and then there will be other people, it just does not make sense at all, but it can be delivered by a completely different person, and the core principle is probably very similar, it usually is how to actually change behaviours, but to deliver it in a different way by a different person, and it'll make sense.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Um yeah, no, it's it's it's great. I uh again using some of those thoughts on the selection process, you know. I we are we are similar. Um, I I I would look at you, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but I'd look at you as someone that is um you were more structured in your approach to that challenge than I was. I I was structured, but I I knew I wasn't doing enough, and that I you know, I was still successful, I got through. There is also people on this spectrum, uh our good friend Gareth, shout out, Gaz, um, you know, who was even less structured. Um, you know, in lots of these things, there's there's quite a broad margin of success, isn't there? You know, despite what people think, there's they think there's this finite, and success can look like different things. Um, you know, how hard for you, again, the selection process firstly, you know, how hard for you was that challenge with these clear processes that you had in place?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah, it is a I I think to me what you just said there almost identifies the common denominator for people that pass selection, for people who see success in sports, in arts, musicians, performers, whatever it is. In nearly every case, the common theme is they have an absolute clear understanding as to the path they're going and what they're doing, they're incredibly passionate about. You know, for me, selection was that is all I wanted to do, and I was not coming off that course, whatever. You know, if you'd said you go on selection and there's a 50% chance you might lose your life on it, I'll be like, yeah, fine. Because that's how there's a great documentary, uh McConkey, about Shane McConkey. Um, it's not a spoiler because it's in the trailer, but he ends up dying on a wingsuiting. But if you want to watch someone and just see a human that lives completely authentically, and again, he he's he's taking part in activities that he knows have got a high percentage, you know, you control the risk as much as possible, but there is a good chance that you will die from them because there's so much risk involved, and I guess it's the same with the forces. But when you're doing something that you completely love, and that doesn't mean that there's not going to be times when it's boring and you know it's not always exciting, a lot of the time it isn't. But if it really speaks to who you are and you have a genuine passion from it, um then it's worth those risks. I'd rather do that for a shorter time than live. So definitely that in terms of um the processes, so you know, selection is hard, it's hard. I don't care who you are, like no one, it is just it's you know, the hills is hard in that it's boring and repetitive, and again, that breaks a lot of people like that groundhog day, same just over and over again, and then the trees is just so physically taxing, it's hard for people to comprehend. But doing everything you can to so I did approach it very structured, especially the hills in my head. The stronger the the less fatigued I could be at the end of the hills, ready for the jungle, the better I'd be. So I approached the hills in the same way as an athlete one uh athlete would, like down to what boots I'm choosing, uh the weight of them compared to how much uh structure they gave support for the ankles, the type of socks that you wear, merino wool, um, great properties, fast drying, um, very comfortable, pre-taping feet up, um, the nutrition, like having the burger entailored, the snacks I had on hand had four to one in my camelback, so four parts carbohydrate to one parts carb um protein, because I researched water endurance cyclists using um that like the recovery that I had the stuff that I'd have in my burger from for finishing the march and immediately having those that post uh march nutrition, like wearing skins in bed at night. You know, maybe that the receipt research around skins, compression tights is is not conclusive, but maybe that's a 1%, so it's worth doing. Every bit that I could optimize, I did to make so it's it's always going to be hard, but the more I could reduce that and reduce the fatigue, the better position I'd be in the end.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Um do you find that that need for uh attention to potentially all those things? That there were there's an endless number of those, isn't there? There's a there's an awful lot of those at least. And did that drain you in any way that those things had to be right? Um, or if they weren't, then maybe you would potentially find it more struggle, uh more of a struggle inside your head?

SPEAKER_00 22:30

So that's a good question. That In itself, so all of this stuff you create one thing, it can create problems in the other sense. In answer to that, no, because I was also, I guess you work on understanding that it's it's your overall moving average, and it's this is something a big thing that we teach to people. It's progress, not perfection. So yes, plan and prep and do all that you can to stack the odds in your favour, but understand that you cannot fully control everything, there are too many variables, and that in reality, you do not need things to be 100% right to get the results. You just need, on average, for everything to be in the positive, you're always gonna have bad days, things are always gonna go wrong on selection in life, whatever it is, but just understanding that you can't control everything and that you just need we use in business a lesson that we fell into. So actually, a lot of the stuff that I was good at selection, it almost had to relearn all of the lessons was the military and business. You know, John and I, that first product we did, we were like, yes, we're gonna build this. We did a little software product, and we're like, yeah, we're gonna build this, and in two years we'll sell it, and that that'll be that'll be us. Um, obviously didn't work out like that. And one of the biggest traps we fell into was thinking that everything, right, we need a perfect website, and you know, all of our advertising has to be perfect, and and the product has to be perfect before we launch it, or you know, we can't put it out there otherwise, as opposed to we now our mantra is which is taken from I think it's Reed Hoffman who set up LinkedIn. If you launch something and it is better than 40%, you waited too long. Too long, yeah. It was LinkedIn. Yeah, so that's our mantra now is 40% and go, and we let data drive our decisions rather than us and its ego thinking that yeah, okay, I think this is the right thing to do that, let the data decide. 40%, put it out there, let the data decide, get feedback, iterate, change, and just keep doing that continually. Um, so yeah, I think planning and prep and controlling your environment, doing everything you can to stack the dog odds in your favour, but also understanding you cannot fully control everything. And again, it's easy to say this stuff, it doesn't just happen, it takes work, and I still do it now. You still fall into it. You you know, I've been doing mindset stuff and active mindset stuff for quite a while. I still fall into the same traps and get frustrated by things. What it allows you with the work is you can catch yourself far sooner. Sooner it's that whole stimulus response and the gap between them. Again, as a famous quote, that is where your freedom lies. Most people are the gap is either non-existent or very small. Things happen, they react, things happen, they react. The more work you can do and perspective you can gain of yourself and the world around you, it allows you to catch yourself when you get into those situations and recover far quicker. Um, and it's definitely not always easy. You're never gonna get to a point, probably, unless you are some monk that is zen the whole time on the side of a mountain. We're never gonna be perfect, but the more we work on it, the more we're able to do it, and it does create more freedom.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah, no, again, completely buy into that. So, with uh I guess one question, two kind of areas that we'll aim it at. What was your what was your compulsion to stretch yourself on selection? What was the real driver? Um, and then also what was the real driver for you leaving again? You said earlier about you feel like you ticked enough boxes, but uh was that all it was?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah, so the real driver for selection it was to because it's the pinnacle of or I saw it as the pinnacle of the military, and for me it was the question of can I am I good enough to get through it? And that was more than anything else. It was um yeah, that that was the real question that I wanted to answer to see if if I could if I could do it, if I had um whatever it is within you to to get through. And I kind of used it, it's funny you can really see people going selection, people who go on it because they want it for the QDOS of ore, the image of it, and the fancy kit and all that kind of stuff, as opposed to just doing it for the sake of doing it, um because it it gets so shit basically on that course that if your driver is not that strong internal core drive, you just won't stick it. Um I used to so obviously I was a signaller down at pool before doing selection, and again I tied the visualization in, and it's really stupid. You your era, so when I was down as a signaller, everyone had those knock-knock t-shirts, and they were issued with the um I can't remember the make of the CWC watches, yeah, dive watch. Yeah, really simple thing. So, you know, I could have gone out and bought that watch and that t-shirt and worn it. Some people did, some people did, but I used to visualize myself wearing that t-shirt and having that watch having passed, and so that future self and that really strong vision, and really I think you know, every second thought was about the process of selection. I I loved the process of training, building up for selection almost more than the process of passing itself. That sounds weird, but I've I've found and even in the business that we're doing, and again, I've seen it top performers in every field, the ones who really get success, but also get success. There's a difference. You'll you know, it's there's some athletes that you know Andre Agassiz's book is a great one to realize. He hated tennis, detested tennis. And there's people out there that get to performance, but that their mindset is so misaligned. You know, it takes like a team of psychologists just to get them to be able to perform, um, as opposed to those performers that just love have such a strong love of what they do that progresses, it's it's not effortless. It's a mindset mentor of uh mine, Tom Fox's mindset RX, he calls it elegant consistency. It's that elegant consistency. You look at people like Matt Fraser from the CrossFit Games, it's just it's like a flow. So things are very, very hard and they test themselves, but because everything is aligned and it's all in the right going in the right line, you enjoy the process. Like I love the process of training for direction. I love having that goal and that challenge, and you know, going out and taking, you know, doing the training for it. Um, and like I said, same with business.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

So the second part of that question was the why what what was the driver for leaving? Because you you made it into this place where ultimately you had act self-actualized what you'd aimed at, and then then you know you you were there a while, yeah. But it was that next chapter came quite quickly.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

So it's I think part of it was like I said, the the one actually bad like to me, the most satisfying part of selection was the helicopter ride out of the jungle, they hand you the beer before you get on, and you sat on it, and you're just kind of looking at the canopy beneath you. And to me, again, it was I'd it was almost like a self-congratulation of myself. It was like you did it, you know, you got through the jungle, whatever happens from now, you got through that process, you know. Really from that point, whether or not it I it would be a lie to say if I'd then got a stand-up, it wouldn't have been hard, but I think because I knew that I had done, I'd given everything that I had, and in my head given it my best and performed at that level, it would be easier to accept, easier to accept. Because I was like, well, I'm not sure if there's anything else that I could do. So just that you know, that point for me was enough. I didn't I've never needed, you know, whenever I've done, I remember even like a rugby or sports at school, never fussed me having parents turn up or other as long as I felt at the end I'd done, you know, performed to the the level that I'd set myself, then that's that's that was good enough for me as long as I've met my expectations. Um, and so even you know, badging day. I remember walking back, you did the badging ceremony, I remember walking back across the field from the blocks, and it was kind of like it was like, yeah, it's good, I got my berry, but it wasn't that for me. The moment I think was after the jungle, and so even I enjoyed it. Can I sorry to interact with it?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

It sounds like you've got a really interception, so your understanding inside of what's what's happening, you've got a real intrinsic, clear, intrinsic motivator that you you're the gauge on when that's been met. Uh and you you don't need that extra, like you said about the parents coming in the sort of pat on the back almost and the giving the berry, you know, and that's that's that's nice, but it's not necessary because internally your intrinsic motivators and understanding of what those measures are uh they're clear for you. So you've you've you've you've laid those out for yourself beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah, and it is you know, I understand, and everyone's got different. I think the one thing to understand with all this, and even you and I having this chat is as I said, all of our personalities are different. You know, I'm sure I think everyone that goes into the world that we do is probably that, I guess you want to turn it Taipei personality or whatever it is. So just because that is how I'm wired and I sort of understand that and I can work with it, that doesn't mean the same approach, you know. Most people I'm the in non-you know, I'm the odd one out. Most people do enjoy having people at the finish line of something in and having that stuff, and actually, which again we can go on to being this one way, which is very good for selection as big goals, on the flip side has problems. You know, I've had to do a lot of work around relationships and stuff. So we talked about it earlier. The biggest thing with mindset work and embracing hardship, everyone thinks about embracing hardship as something hard physical. For a lot of people, or working hard, that's actually easier than the real hardship, which is looking at parts in your personality that you don't actually like and shining a light on them to make the changes. You know, if we talk about fixed and growth mindsets, I was definitely very growth when it comes to work and goal pursuit, but probably very fixed relationships as in this is just me, and that's you've got to deal with it. And then coming to the understanding and actually looking into that and asking myself why, and then you know, coming to the understanding that relationships like anything else require work and there's so much that you can change. Yes, we've got core drivers and core personalities, and if you've got big problems with someone, then you then you that you want to change. Probably Esther Perel, the famous relationship psychologist, you know, says if there's those big ones, it's it's probably not right. You know, we're always going to have little bits that we want to work on, but there's so much that you can do through communication and and all the rest of it. So, you know, all of this stuff, there's always always a flip side to it.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Now, uh, we were talking about it earlier again about I buy into James Clear's model of the four burners. I think my former career, um, our former organization, my work burner was cranked right up. My health burner as a byproduct was running quite high. Family and um friends of those four burners, for those that aren't familiar, it's on James Clear's website. Um, and they were running quite low because I didn't need them. I've got a really good secure circle of friends that I had since school. I didn't need to regularly confirm or be affirm that that relationship was still there. I had confidence that it would be. Um, and what I found is that towards the end of my career, and my children grew up, and you know, I wanted to be around more, then I had to turn up that family burner. There had to be compromises. And I'm I'm hearing some of that with yourself. You know, you were aware that the kind of relationships family um burner was happily quite low because you had this connection with this unit that you worked in. Um, when you left, clearly that doesn't work so well in most other areas, does it? Because people need this, need's probably the wrong word. People desire this, you know, these connected people and these these groups of like-minded people. Whereas in our old unit, you get that in abundance, and the most lads are very similar. Um, and but when you leave that, that you know, to have, I think the guys that make a success of their next chapter are ones that can divorce themselves from that and then find their groups and find their tribes um afterwards, and sometimes in a very different area. I know from my speaking from experience, you know, my this chapter, if you like, you know, I've again a very secure group of friends, uh, new groups that I'm involved in that give me everything I need, and it isn't that work burnam-like-minded way of measuring myself. You know, is does that relate to you?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, it definitely um it's the the one thing you always hear from people who've left the military, if you ask them what they miss, is the environment and the lads. And it's it's definitely hard and takes work to find that outside of that arena, um, because it is such a you can't recreate it, it's impossible to recreate. Um, that shared hardship and that bond that you just will never get anywhere else. But if if you just have that, you know, is that have that really connected as your only identity, that's I think when people really struggle and not finding anything outside of it, and human connection is is huge. Again, probably a bit on the anonymous or the odd one out in that you know, I'm very comfortable again in sort of my own. So, yes, I do obviously have you know I'm very lucky I have strong friendship groups, but I'm I'm quite equally tired fine having time, and again, it ties back to that I work best when I've got a big pursuit that I'm really passionate about. So, actually, to go back to answer your question as to why I left almost almost immediately after passing selection, although I you know enjoyed the job for the rest of the time I was there, I had that itch again because like I said, I you know I enjoyed the process as much as the result in itself, and so I was always already sort of having that itch of well, what's what's the next? You know, up until that point in my life, selection was the pinnacle, and suddenly I'd done it. So it was like, okay, why where's the direction going now? And that's where sort of I guess having that self-confidence of taking the leap to leave without anything set up because I knew that if I stayed, so we can talk about sort of the known and the unknown, so much of our own everyone's development and mindset work is we have the known, which is what we're comfortable with, um, and it's different for everyone. You know, in the world of special forces, we've talked about this. People are very comfortable there, but for lads actually wanting to leave and go and do jobs and say the city, that suddenly becomes way comfortable. For someone in the city, go and do the military stuff is that uncomfort. So it's it's different for all of us, but you have to, if you always stay in the known, that is where that sort of stagnation happens and problems occur anyway. So you need to tread that line, it's that fine line between the known and the unknown, and constantly sort of exposing yourself to new challenges in whatever form that can be physical, that could be mental, that could be emotional, um, psychological, whatever it is. We always need to be treading that line between the two. So I just got that had that itch to leave, and it was tied in. That was you talking about burners before selection, that was my priority. Didn't have a relationship, everything was about You wanted the watch and the t-shirt. I wanted the watch and that t-shirt. Nothing else mattered, so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't, you know, I sacrificed, I didn't go to so my best friend's wedding, Andy's wedding. Um I was on a training course uh for selection, so I missed this missed the ceremony and was just there for the for the evening, and I was absolutely fine. Like that didn't all I cared about was selection and that every other second, and it brought me happiness. It wasn't like a it wasn't a chore, like that is what I was thriving on. Um, and again, it's not to say that doesn't work for a lot of people. I know that that's how I function, and it works very well for me. For most people, there's more of a balance there. I think balance in itself is a bit of a fallacy. Uh, James Clear writes about this and the four burners. What we're actually all looking for is satisfaction. So it's how does what does satisfaction represent for you? For me, it's actually all at that point, it was definitely more of a singular goal. As I've got older, that is definitely tempered more to yes, I still love that pursuit. And then you know, the the struggles we've gone through with T and E. You know, at one point John and I were living the stepbrothers' life, we'd both spent all of our money, all of our savings. We both moved in with my parents at mid-30s, shared a 375 quid Ford Focus, we used to call the Falcon. Um, mate, we'd organise like bumble dates at the same venue and same time because we were sharing a car to go there. Um, so but you know, and on the face of it, it it could look pretty shit. You've gone from special forces to a well-paid job in London in a consultancy to living at home. We were paying ourselves each 400 quid, sharing a car that costs less than that between the two of us. But we were we knew at that point when we started TE, it just felt right. We're like we're on the path, and we're like, this is gonna change, it's not forever, we're not gonna be here forever. Paying yourself 500 quid now, 500 quid, mate, and we've got we've got our own cars, um so, but it's just part of the process, and I think that's something we always come back to process, process, process, all just part of the process. Like what's happening right now is just a moment in time, it's not how it's always gonna be, things are gonna change. And if you feel like you're on the right path, if everything is aligned, it is so much easier to face difficulty, whether that's physical difficulty of selection, whether that's having to move back home. You know, I'm incredibly grateful for the fact that I can actually do that. But you know, live back home and share a car when all your peer group is buying houses and having families, yeah. And we'd essentially gone back to square one, but it's a very cheesy cliche quote. But I'd rather be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb than halfway up one that you don't. Um, you know, cliches are probably a cliche for a reason because actually, if you dig into it, it's sound truth and it's the sound philosophy behind it.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Um I hear a lot of Gary V in what you've just described, you know, um said in a slightly different way, but you know, I think people aren't prepared to eat dirt um for a period of time, and so they they live an unsatisfactory life so that they don't eat dirt to ever have this potential reached that they are more than capable of, that seems so far away, so risky. You know, we spoke about it earlier. Some of our former colleagues that are still kicking around the organization that are just petrified, legitimately petrified to leave because the the fear of not doing well immediately uh paralyzes them. Um, you know, and I I am interested in how some navigate that, you know. Clearly, you've you've articulated it there, you know, you were prepared to eat dirt, you know, and moving back in with your parents chair in a car with John, uh, you know, um, and you know, is is a difficult decision to make when you've had this significance. You used to work in an organization that called itself special, right? You uh you had significance, special in a good way. Yeah, um, you had significance, um, but then you you you forgave all that because you knew that that wasn't in line because of this change in yourself, development of yourself of well, what does success look like now? I I listened to um Mark Cavendish recently on the high performance podcast, I love that one, and and Britain's most successful stage winner of and the Tour de France, you know, no no um no light achievement. And he was talking about the how he rewarded himself, um, or they asked him how he rewarded himself after each kind of victory he had, and you know, after the winning the green uh jersey, etc. And he didn't, you know, he was like always looking at the next goal. I wasn't he wasn't he was someone that just loves the process, his self-identity was bike racer. If he was racing bikes, he was happy, and that was you know what he needed to be aligned to. You know, I guess his next challenge will be now. I think he's you know, whether he's not retired now or if he's approaching retirement, you know, what he does next. And we see this. So, in light of what you've said, and you know, I've we've we've kicked that one around, you know, we both work now in in more of a corporate field sometimes, you know. So, where do you see most people going wrong? So, what you've found that works, um, how do you help people to apply it in their world? So, you know, you're now speaking to um your typical person in a middle management role in the city, you know, and they're not they're not they're not fulfilled, they're not feeling it, they're feeling like they've got so much more to give. I and I speak to these people on a regular basis. Now, what what how can you help them to kind of unpick this? The challenge to them is this new. Think that they think they might like to do, but you know, where have you where you've taken the chance calculated you know and done everything you can to align that, but kind of what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 44:44

So I think a big one here is, and it you can't get away, you and I it sounds a bit like a broken record, but keep coming back to the fact that everything comes, it is that know that know thyself, that inner story. Um I think also, you know, we touched on it earlier, happiness isn't something you pursue per se. Happiness is the byproduct of life experiences in the same way that you don't choose to be angry, you just are angry, it just happens it's an emotion. Happiness is exactly the same, you are happy or you're not happy, and that happiness comes from the pursuit of the things that you are doing. And the more that you pursue things that align with your ideal self, the more happiness, the times of happiness you will experience. And so understanding that ideal self is really really key. The process that we use is so most people when they try to make a change, they will try and do it at the behavior itself. So whatever it is, they will start trying to do whether it's diet or food or a goal or whatever it is, they they try and force it at that point and they try and use willpower and motivation and and force, and it never ever works because it's a very conscious process, and you're fighting innate subconscious drivers. The first step of the mindset process is when people understand that okay, where do thought where do behaviours come from? And they're driven by our thoughts and our emotions, and so they start understanding that if they can change their thoughts and emotions, that will change their behaviours. Again, they do it in quite a conscious way, so they sort of try and force different ways of thinking. Um, and again, it you know that there are some tools that can be powerful around that, but really they're missing the critical question, which is where do your thoughts and emotions come from? And they come from your story, your narrative of the world, which is essentially formed by our experiences, our education, our environment, and evolution. So it's the reason why someone can tell a joke, one person's offended, one person finds it's funny. It's the reason you know, you've got Brexit. Most people don't really have the full information or know really how what the true repercussions are, and yet they have strong, entrenched, ardent standpoints of whether it's right or wrong. It's the reason you know, you look at the north and south of England, very different cultures, you're gonna have different views, whether you went to a private school or a public school, whether you grew up with a single parent or both parents in the country, in a town, whether you were bullied at school, whether you uh found school easy and didn't have to try that hard, and so you've got a thing around effort. Everything up until this point in your life has formed your story. The best way, as I was taught it from my mentor Tom, is imagine you're looking out at a view and then someone puts a coloured lens in front of it. It's still the same view, but your view of it is slightly distorted, slightly coloured by your lens. And so, whenever any of us look at a situation, we are seeing it from our point of view and our story. What most people never do is actually look and work to understand what their story is, because until you understand that, that is where the driver of your behaviours come from, and so by understanding some of them, it is helpful, um, and some of them aren't helpful, so it's working out what helps you and what doesn't. Yeah, funnily enough, we went in in the period between um Mel and I moving from Manchester to Bristol. Uh, we had a period of two months back at my parents, always end up back there. Just what was happening with the houses, it was just like an interim, interim point.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Shout out Mr. and Mrs. Jefferson.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Yeah, yeah, Alan of Yellowna. Um, and funny that so the f my parents, yeah, being together a very long time, love each other very much, but they communicate almost through I don't think I've told them the story, so if this is the first time I hear it. Probably not listening, yeah. Safe to say, probably not, mate. Um wounded, communicate through sort of low-level bickering almost. Yeah, yeah, familiar with that. Yeah, similar. So the first few days we're there, I was like, I was like, oh my god, am I like witnessing the beginning of divorce? And I was like, what are you on about? They're just chatting about breakfast. And so she decision, mate. Yeah. So she after a week or so, she's funny enough, she said she turned to me and she said, I now understand why when you speak to me sometimes, you think you're just speaking to me in a normal way and you don't see a problem with it. But to me, it comes across as like you're having a go at me, and then we have this sort of thing around it. I can see it because you've just grown up to you, that is normal, that is what the environment you've been in as you've grown up, and so to you, that is a normal way that a loving couple communicates. And I was like, Yeah, but I'd never picked up on that myself. So, with coaching or however you do it, bringing awareness to all of these things because an awareness is probably the key word of the mindset work in the same way as if you want to change your diet, well, unless you know exactly what you're eating, how much you're eating, then how are you ever going to make any changes? You know, it's like that programme Secret Eaters who they always interview at the beginning, they're like, Oh, yeah, I don't understand why I'm over. Well, I just think I'm gonna eat pretty healthy, and they film them for a week and they're like shoving Mars bars down at petrol stations and don't even remember it or realise it because our brains are so good at misconstruing or not giving us a an accurate perception, yeah, blind to ourselves, exactly. And so there's lots of ways that you you can do it. We use a lot of directed journaling because it's just an easy way to sort of start tapping into the subconscious, and you'll just start to notice patterns. And so, for people like you talked about in the corporate world, really a big step is getting people to understand, and the only way that you truly make progress with this is by embracing hardship, and by that you've got to be vulnerable and you've got to allow yourself to look at parts of your character be like, actually, I don't really like that about myself, and and if you don't do that, if you aren't willing to be honest, you're never going to make true change.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Um I I I think of the saying that we used to say making the map fit the ground, and again, it's a bit of a you know, um mental models, our maps that we have on the world. Um, we've all got our own because of the experiences that we've had, like you've already communicated. But then we apply this map to everything we see as though it's truth and it's fact, and the reality is most of the time it's not. I had an amazing conversation with Jeff Thompson um a couple of months ago now. Um and he's correct, I could I could listen to him for so long. A great speaker, um, and you know, you've got to find truth, and rather than your truth, which you hear now, this is my truth. You know, there's no such thing as your truth, there's truth. Yeah, and you've got to find truth. And so you are on this journey of truth finding, I guess. Um, and you have found um a model that is concordant with what you want to do, um, it's it's helping people, it's impacting people, it's um putting you, you've got time flexibility, you've got all these freedoms. Um, and I think people are gravitating towards, we see that clearly. Um, it's a real clear message. I love your message in in many ways, and like we said before, we're we're on the same page um with um many things. Um if there was some things that you'd do differently to to what that have found you in this place, you know, what are they for people listening? Because why am I asking this question? Well, most people find themselves fall into things. You you know, you didn't fall into special forces, you didn't fall out of special forces, you were you were very uh decisive with those uh choices, but is there anything that you also thought you might do? You know, what is there anything that you'd done differently?

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah, it's interesting. It's you know, Steve Jobs said you can only connect the docs backwards. Um, you know, funnily enough, when on this journey, we read all the books on business and entrepreneurship, and they talk about all the mistakes that most people make. And John and I were we're never gonna make those. Um we made every single mistake, even though we knew them. And in some ways, it's almost as if you do have to just make the mistakes and tread the path and go through the process to get there. Um I I think I very much so I read it the other day and I can't remember where, but it really hit home as in you know, use your past for learning, use your future to set your direction, but live in the present and live in the process. And so I try not to get too retrospective as as to what could have been or what what should have been. Um funnily enough, when I very first left, I did have as a chat with a um a business guy who they wanted to recreate the shackleton route in the Arctic. Um, and you know that would have been amazing, and you know, perhaps that would have led to other more outdoor stuff, and I wouldn't have even gone down this route, and perhaps that would have circumnavigated back to more mindset stuff, you know, who knows? But it's almost like it's almost pointless to why even waste time doing it. Um, I think one important point to touch on is and why, which we discussed earlier, why a lot of people find mindset work hard is as you get older, it can be really tough to ask those deep questions because it may reveal answers you don't want around people. Fear having to make big changes with relationships or jobs. The one thing I will say is again, don't fall into that perfection trap. You don't have to necessarily make huge changes to have alignments with yourself. I use the examples a lot of on one hand, you've got someone like Nims, who we both know who's done amazing things and so authentic, but you know, obviously, huge you know, literally climbing mountains and making uh huge changes in people's lives around that. But for ourselves, we don't necessarily have to go and climb Everest. The other example I use is a lady, our group Esther, she's happy. I'll share her story. Um, she used to play hockey when she was younger, hadn't played it for 16 years, did some coaching through us, and she's got lost a bit of weight, got a bit more confident, um, and she rejoined a local hockey club. And she came after her first training session, she wrote this amazing post. And the essential drift as it was, she's like, I'm so happy, I'm smiling from ear to ear. Um, the social connections it's opened up, and she was like, you know, my husband's never seen me so happy. And the point being that just that simple thing of doing a hobby that she loved had a knock-on reaper an effect throughout the entire rest of her life. So, this search for our ideal self, you know, I know plenty of people that aren't in, you know, they're in jobs that they're all right, they don't, it's not their complete passion, but it allows them the freedom to, you know, maybe for them they they love time with their family and it allows them to provide for them and or they have a hobby, you know, maybe they're mega into trathlons or whatever it is. And so they that for them works, that is where they get that satisfaction of the balance of it's a job, it doesn't, it's fine with it, I don't hate it, and it's okay. But everything I do outside of that I absolutely love and that facilitates it, so that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

I um I talk a lot about the third space. Uh, I don't know if it's the concept you're familiar with. You know, most people live in one and two spaces, work and uh family or home. Having this third space, this other area, if either work or home is particularly stressful, or both are stressful, even worse, not having anywhere to vent and to have other pastimes, pleasures, things that you like to do, um, can prove prove problematic. Um, uh my wife, uh Kaz, Karen, no wants to be called Karen anymore. Um, Kaz, um we had a chat a few six months ago now. You know, what is it that both of us aren't doing that we love to do? And you know, I I haven't had a motorbike for years, and I've always used to love having motorbikes. And for me, it was like an easy thing. I'd love to have motorbikes and to go out and just lose myself in that and be very purposeful in what I'm doing in that moment is is really enjoyable to me. For her, it was horse riding, not done it for years. You know, we've got children and um things just snowball um with time um and activities. So we both have been quite prescriptive with these are things that we now do regularly, and it's that third space activity. And again, arcing back to Peretto's principle, you know, that 2080 rule, the 80-20 rule. You know, if we only need so much of your time to be dedicated to these things which can give you real fulfillment, then actually everything else, no matter what you're doing, maybe it isn't so concordant with what you want to be doing, but you're affording yourself this time. I used to think about our tours where we'd go away for six months at a time, and you know, on the face of it, they might sound really glamorous to people, and some of the things that you got to do were absolutely amazing. You got to do things that billionaires couldn't pay to do. It was amazing sometimes. There's a lot of hardship, there's a lot of trauma, there's a lot of difficult times, too. Um, but you only need one or two moments almost in each big long deployment to kind of carry you through. Or at the end of a deployment, we had a series of uh training, some troop training, that the really good stuff that you like to do, and it and it maybe was only a month long. And so, again, it was that 20% of time doing something that you absolutely love doing, that was enough to kind of tide you over through all these difficult times. I think that's something that people need to um scratch around a little bit, you know, rather than just tagging along um or just moving along with uh their particular journey that they've always done. I think that's um again, I I hear that time and time again. In that theme, you know, the people that you speak to, what what's the what's the common reason that you hear as to why some people aren't successful in in their particular goals?

SPEAKER_00 58:21

Yeah, um, I mean success in itself is how do you even define how do you even define that? I think I'm bringing it back to it again. But people are if you're not seeing success, like how are you defining it? It comes back to if you're pursuing something that you completely believe in and love doing, then the fact of pursuing it in itself is success, it's the process. Like if you are putting all of your happiness and however you term success on the end event and not in the pursuit of it or the work to get there, which is a where the magic lies because it's going to make it more um likely it's gonna happen, and that's also where you spend 90% of the time, like the time is spent in the process, not the end event is one small moment of time, and I've yet to find someone that it's yes, it is satisfying to reach that end point, but again, you read time and time and again the the people that are truly happy and satisfied are the ones that are happy in the process of working towards or just doing on a daily basis what means a lot to them. So if you're having that constant struggle all the time towards whatever it is, you know, perhaps that just isn't the right path. And you know, have you really questioned why you're pursuing that? Why do you want that? And you know, that's the other thing. People are chasing the feeling of something which that same feeling could be achieved in a different way, and perhaps an easier way, or a way that's more aligned with what you actually want to do. There are so many different ways to achieve that, and often it's far simpler than we think. You know, we think we need to earn a certain amount, have a house of a certain size, or a car of certain type. When actually all we're chasing is feelings within each of those things. So how can we achieve those? And I think the other point is that in my experience and what I see from around me from the people that are the most content is those that that true sort of feeling of um satisfaction and and feeling more happiness comes from good relations, strong relationships and experiences. You know, the simple walk. Actually, funny enough, Johnny Wilkinson is a you know, he talks on the high performance podcast about being in the yeah, he goes full yoda. You know, he talks about once you get to that place and that understanding of just being present and being in the moment. He's like, I I now I can get as much satisfaction from doing the washing up as drop-kicking the World Cup, which is what most people won't it's that's really hard to understand and grasp that. And you only get there, you can totally speak to him. He has done a lot, and I mean a lot of of mindset work, but it that it it's true in essence, what he's saying, you know. I my non-negotiables um around healthy every the every morning. The first thing I do, never look at the phone first thing, I get up and I get some kind of movement, and usually it's taking the dog for a walk or a run first, and then doing whatever afterwards, just a simple thing like that dog that hell, her stupid little trot that she does, like standing behind her while she's walking down the path. Honestly, it makes me smile every time, and I can't and I'm like, just being in the park, there's never usually many people around at that time, so simple, but so just so much like that itself elicits feelings of happiness. Um, and again, it probably ties into because I'm on the path to a job, you know, doing something that I really care about, um, you know, good relationship, strong friendship. So, yes, lots of other things tie into it, but they're all simple things that don't need lots of money, or again, we want money not for the sake of money, we want money for the feeling of security or perhaps freedom or whatever it is. And perhaps, you know, we talked about it earlier. You know, you can spend 500 grand on a house, and depending on whether you buy that in London or in a different city, depends on on what you get for that. So, actually, is there a way you can live a simpler life but achieve the same, you know, see so many people now downsounding and the minimalism? Yeah, some great documentaries around that that are worth worth watching. So I think you know, really asking yourself those questions why am I actually chasing this goal? What do I actually want to get from it? And then how you're defining success within that. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

No, mate, that's good. That's awesome. Um I I love, and again, I'm not surprised by what you've said, we're on the same page in many ways. Um, we you did fire out a few questions or the opportunity for some of uh your followers to to ask a few questions, and we've got a few written down here. I thought it would be my quite useful. Um well, one of them's been answered actually, but just was both answering some of them. Um the first question uh was says the what's your toughest physical and mental battles? So for yourself, um I'll go first on that one just because I don't want to keep I'm gonna throw you four hand grenades, but um I know you're used to dealing with them, but uh I'll I'll take this one. Um so the toughest physical and mental battle for me. Well, mentally, I think it was my decision when it first started to make it to leave the military. Now I made that decision maybe two years before um I actually did leave, so I had this glide path I can see now. But there was this, like we've already mentioned, and I can joke about it now, we had this significance in this um role that we had, which I knew I was going to be leaving behind. And I also knew I didn't want to just take on that role outside of um that organization and and try and sell that everywhere I went, um, which was a difficult balance, but I really struggled with that. The physically aside from that, within being within the military, one of the things that I think I didn't appreciate was just how much framework and structure that organization gave me. You know, for the best part of 22 years, um Monday to Friday, I didn't have to make myself any food. Um, and just leaving now on a daily basis, I took Simon out for lunch today. I didn't cook for him because it's still something I hate. But uh, you know, I now shortcut that process. I like having frozen meals in the freezer, I like going out for something to eat rather than cooking myself. Um, but that genuinely was one of the biggest challenges that I faced when I first left I've got to make myself food every single day. And that was actually people might laugh, that's actually quite taxing for me because I just hated it so much. It was something that I'd always uh avoided, even as a child, you know, my my mum bless her, uh you know, used to always cook my food, so it's just something I'd never approach.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

So there's a story there straight away. No, as in what I'm saying is yourself like narrative around that, the fact that looking back, you just said you mentioned avoid that, so that idea around cooking and how you see cooking as opposed to someone who was perhaps brought up, I don't know, involved in the cooking process. And so just you know, even that just the way that you view it as opposed to someone see, I quite enjoy and I never ate, so when I was down in the military, I only ever ate in the galley as a last resort, just because to me, again, it was like a one percent. So I was like, that food is shit, I'm not eating it. So I'd always cook, and I was the guy, you know, it was a it was a running joke. I'd turn up on on courses, I was the person who turned up with Tupperwares. I remember going on the Dems course day one. It's like me and you know, one of the bloke and maybe you'd have these Tupperware boxes, and everyone's like taking a piss, and then gradually over the weeks, just like more and more blokes are bringing in Tupperware boxes of stuff as they see other people do it. Uh so yeah, it's just funny, even like the difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

I throw money at that problem now. I have companies give me their Tupperware box of food. Again, it's just that pro I've shortcut that process. Now I um you know, I was again, I I can laugh about it now on endurance, the final test march on selection. I was stuffing corned beef hash down my throat, um, cold to try and get through that. Which again, um there's a broad margin of success on on Those things, you know, and um, but again, that was the way I did things, just because there you go, yeah, whatever works. So, yourself with the physical, the the toughest physical and mental battle.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Yeah, I think um physically it probably was the as in the most taxed I've ever been physically, I'd say was the jungle, just because you're just on your limit for the whole time. I think you know it puts such a tax on your body because you just you just can't eat enough calories, and you're always um yeah, always at your limit. It's funny enough, even though mine's mindset I remember a couple of particular times, and you can see it on people's faces, and I've had it myself, you you you get to a point when it's so physically hard, and those voices in your head, and depending on which one you pick, it that that self-fulfilling narrative, as in if you start telling yourself you can't go on, that's it, you're done. You see it on people's faces, and they you see you almost see when they've made that decision, and then they just cream in not long after, as opposed to no, I just need to get through this next two minutes, this next, get to the next point, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

And I used to love that. I used to love hoovering and morale as the people that you could see it, and again, as an instructor that's kind of coached or mentored people through that that process too. Um, you know, watching it happen as well, you become more and more aware of the signs uh of it happening. And again, now, you know, I'd like to think with the coaching that I do with some of the people that we work with, it's a similar thing that you can um spot early and and be um proactive against rather than kind of reactive and panic management with uh when things are uh the wheels are falling off, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:08

So yeah, yeah. I think with the the mental one, I was just sort of racking going through my brain while you were speaking there. I think it probably is the mindset because you know, selection and stuff like that. Like I said, because it was completely aligned with who I was and what it wanted to do, then in that sense it wasn't hard because I'm just on the path and walking the path of yeah, this is brilliant to me. I like the physical, it's it's the challenge I've I've always wanted to do. So it's actually probably the mindset work into the parts you know, like around relationships and other parts that you don't necessarily like about yourself or um that need work on, and so exposing yourself to that that is the hard like no one no one wants to look at parts of their personality that they don't like and um you know actually admit, yeah, I'm a bit of a dick in that situation or or whatever, um you know, however it manifests itself for each of us. So that that sort of hardship and really digging into that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

You practice what you preach uh with with regards to all of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

I think you can't as in uh someone said the other day, which I've never heard before, it's brilliant. Um uh what's the Federer? They're like Roger Federer. Roger Federer has a coach, he's the best tennis player in the world. If he has a coach, do you think you don't need a coach? And it's the same with you know, whether it's mindset or whatever it is, if you truly want to improve in anything, then you have to is I think again we said it if you ever get to the point where you don't think you can learn something, you kind of have to question why you're telling yourself that in the first place, because no one is perfect. And again, top performers are always always looking for their weaknesses and trying to improve on them constantly. That's what they that's probably if you want a real differentiator between people who have great success and don't is the ones who are always actively looking for where they're weak and then trying to work on it as opposed to just focusing on what they're good at.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

Yeah, that's quite true. Um I'd always uh push people towards their strengths or pull people towards their strengths, I should say, with regards to what they're uh focusing on. Again, um when we're most concordant, we're working to our strengths, but I completely buy into helping people to improve those those those weaknesses bit by bit. Um so overcoming long-term health issues or injuries, is that something that you've firstly have you faced yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

Um no, not in a sense like the worst injury the worst injury that I had was in uh training when you do the tarz and assault course, and you do that stupid punch-through technique on the on the on the on the cargo net. And I it it was run through, um so it was practice run throughs with a commando test, it was wet. Did it lock my arm on, feet slipped off, you have webbing and stuff off, and it ripped my pectorial muscle off my bicep, like off the off where it's attached, like it ruptured, um, basically ruptured it all. And obviously, stupidly, when you're young and going through, and no one wants everyone wants to stay with their original troop, so I just took a lot of painkillers and carried on.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

You didn't want to be a sick bay ranger, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Um, which you know, luckily we were going on fine lecks the next day. I can't remember, it was like it was a completely black um, like all the bruising and swelling, but because the first three days you're just doing yomping, man, I couldn't lads had to help me get my burger on. I couldn't hold my weapon properly, I was like cradling on my right hand, but just took enough painkillers to get through, and because it all balls the scar tissue balls up, like unless you get it fixed in the first sort of or fairly soon after, there's no point. Um, to be honest, it hasn't apart from bench press, so the ego of bench press, um, it's been alright. But it's an interesting question, and we were talking about this because I I'm a huge believer in uh prehab as opposed to rehab as in prevention rather than cure. You know, I spent my entire childhood outdoors running around, climbing trees, then played rugby, started training in the gym from 16 and done it ever since, you know, resistance training. And undoubtedly, I've got no doubt that that's tied into the fact that I've had very few injuries, and then when I was in the military, I got into sort of the crossfit type of training very early, but when it was more about general physical preparedness as opposed to what it is now. Um, and so I was always doing work to make my body as strong and balanced as possible, not just chest and biceps basically. So I, you know, strengthening the hamstrings, calves, so that kind of approach, and that has always stood me in good stead.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Um you were always a serial Turkish get-upper in the gym. Best exercise. I don't think I've I've I've you've done more Turkish get ups when I've been in the gym with you than any man I've ever known in history.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Hey, it's a strike. If you Google, it always comes up in the list. If you want to an exercise for like all round injury prevention, it's but it's it's a great one. But in answer bench, obviously. Yeah, after bench, but prevention bias. In answer to that question, I think it comes down to again being active management with that process. You know, he's searching out right, do I need physios? Do I need good coach? You know, Ed and Dave, who um we've used um Dave Tilston and Ed Noor for coaching, uh what they don't know about the human body isn't worth knowing. Um, and it it's the biggest battle often when people come to them, because the whole industry is sold on quick fixes and high intensity in this stuff, actually getting the people to understand that that isn't in 90% of the cases, well, probably 100% that is not the way to do it. You know, no professional athlete trains like most programs are sold. Um, so getting people to do the more mundane, boring work around mobility or certain exercise selection of lower intensity is the way to get the results.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Um, so I think I can't actually remember the original question, but yeah, long-term uh injuries, you've not you've not got to work on it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:12

Get coaches, find experts, and it's got to become a part of your process.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:16

The naturaledge.com. Um last two questions, really. The the the penultimate one from from one of your followers is it says are people are are they able to mould themselves into who they aim to be? Um, discuss.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

Yeah, I I I'd absolutely agree with that. I mean, we we have an infinite amount of choice. We've probably got more choice now than there's ever been um in history of man, you know, with the options that are available to you. You know, you're listening to this on, you know, you know, wherever you are in the world, you know, that is novel. That is, you know, that is insane. With you know, where and again, I'm I'm really blessed with the the sort of fellowship with this, and you know, I get to see the stats on where the people are listening to this from, and it is mind-blowing that kind of the the countries that around the world that people are listening from. It's awesome. Uh, I appreciate every single one of you, but also you know, that is novel. That's novel. It's there's never been a time in history where we've been able to communicate on this on this scale um and share that share these thoughts, and so to be able to listen to anybody you want is you know, so we have absolutely have a choice now that is just mind-boggling. Um, in some ways, I think that is um paralyzing for people that there's so much choice, there's so much opportunity, there's so many people already doing it that you think, well, what if I try and I fail? You know, I think this is the sort of thing that inhibits people when actually, you know, align yourself with people and listen to people that have done. I've always said this to people, speak to the people that have done, um, that rather than the people that have that have failed or have never tried, um, and and listen to what they say. And you'll be surprised by the simplicity. Like listening to listening to yourself sigh today. You know, there's nothing that you've said that is revelatory. It's about these this um habitual, uh, fundamental, disciplined uh process that you can dedicate to anything. And you're you've applied it in a number of different chapters, and you can you know you can see from uh the stuff on social media that this is you know it's it's climbing, it's growing, it's going out the roof for you. Um, because of this process that you're able to apply, and that I would argue to people, this process uh you can absolutely apply to yourself. Um, and it is a case of moulding, it's not going to happen overnight, it in my experience, you know. Um thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

Yeah, I mean it's taken us since leaving the military. So if you if you take into account yes from the very first uh time we decided to go down the path of business and the failed ventures before, then it's taken six years to get to a point where I just feel literally in the last few months it's coming together, that's how long it's taken. But that is where again it comes back to unless you are really aligned with that ideal self, your true self, and following a process that means something deeply to you, you're just not gonna do it because you're not gonna move back home, you're not gonna pay yourself no money, you're not gonna go through the the struggle of like month upon month, can you pay yourself? Can you pay the coaches? Um and go through that hardship of it. So you know, not everyone can be anything. I'm never gonna be an NBA basketball player. You have to understand like you know, also I nearly want to shoot for the moon, you know, high high, set high goals and expectations, but yeah, just have that and then do that work that it from what you said there, it is simple, but it's not easy to coin Warren Buffett's term about investment you know, buy low, sell high, easy. But actually, it's far more nuanced and complicated. But simple things, if you can keep coming back to some simple stuff like moving average, it's just your overall moving average, it's never gonna be, it's always gonna be ups and downs. It doesn't have to be perfect, 40% and go. Trust in the process and just understand that it is a continual process that you're always gonna have to work on. But at the core of it all, it will be far easier if you do the work to understand who you are, what you value, and how be proactive with how you want your life to look. It is again that phrase no one stumbles on significance, it has to be an active process.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

Now, uh it kind of blends it really nicely, actually, to the last question of the best advice of how to to get started for people in their in pursuing whatever their dream, their ideal self is. You know, obviously um sending an email to thenaturaledge.com is a great start, but sort of you know, on a on a more um broad, broad no, no, no, absolutely. I'd recommend every single person to do that immediately, but um um you know, on a more broad scale, you know, what is it that people need to be doing to really pursue that that dream?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

It it it is that I think working on it's that mindset as a skill that it's not something you're gonna stumble on. So taking that time like to sit down and even simple stuff like that I use in the process when I was in that consultancy, not like just brainstorming, actually sitting down, you know, just throwing stuff out onto paper, exploring different options, whatever it is, whether that's new careers to hobbies, or just working out, even if you just sat down and listed out what makes me happy and what makes me unhappy, that is a start. The more that you can bring awareness to what you are doing and how you're living, the easier it will be to make changes. Um, you know, there's great books. I think probably the books I recommend the most are Carol Dweck's Fixed and Growth Mindset. Um it's not sorry, it's called Mindset, but it's about fixed because that really is at the core of a lot of stuff we do. Um James Clare's atomic habits, like just those two books alone. If you read those and embedded just a few of the concepts, it would probably change your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:11

Absolutely agree. Um, I said that was the last question. I've got one more, um, and it's just relating to yourself. So, what what's what's around the corner for the natural edge for uh TNE, and then also um part the same question, if I may. Sort of that's just around the corner, but what's what's five years down the line? So, where are you going with this, Sai?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:31

So, right now, because funny enough, we chatted about this balance between work and I guess and where you your value lies, because for the last six years we have been killing ourselves to make it work, and this year we definitely started to ease off on that and bring some more balance into it. But right now, because it finally feels like it started to click with the direction we're going on mindset coaching, it's like all the dots have started to connect together, but just working with you know people that really want to make that change. Um, I yeah, I actively look forward to the clients that I work with exciting to have those conversations and see people make the changes, and you can actually see them make breakthroughs, it's is really rewarding. Um, and just getting back, and you know, it's ironic, it's so ironic. T and E the page, a lot of the pictures I put up, it's always outdoor kind of stuff. But again, for the last few years, that has been five percent of my time. Everything else has been spent on a laptop learning predominantly digital marketing, like just such a hard dark art slash wizardry type of yeah. Um, yeah, I should actually meant you know, you know, John's always behind it. Yeah, it's funny. John sits behind the scenes with all this stuff, um, but it's equal. I would there's no way T and E would be what it is without John, you know, everything we've done is you know completely equal.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:03

Um, and again, it just the beautiful face of it, mate. John, you're beautiful too, but uh sorry, you are the beautiful face of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

Funny enough, the people, but it compliment, you know, he hates or doesn't enjoy as much doing content. I hate technical stuff where his brain, you know, the brain on that guy when it comes to well, anything but technical stuff, and so it's worked very well. Um, so for right now, just embedding this sort of new direction for us with mindset, just working with fewer people, having more balance and actually doing getting you know, doing the stuff time like right now, this chat coming see you on a Wednesday, probably even four months ago, never would have done because I'd be like, I've got too much to do, got to do this, got to keep, you know, because how are we gonna pay ourselves this much? Yeah, whereas this switch now, even straight away, I'm like, yeah, you know, I want to spend time and connect with people um that I enjoy spending time with and having more of that. So that definitely for now, I think just bringing that back in and a bit of breathing space for us. Um and five years time, I I honestly don't really know. I think it's almost like you said, you know, where the the guy that offered help and said, Where do you want to get to? You're like, Well, I'm almost already there, I'm doing what I enjoy, and I kind of feel that a bit with T and E. It's like, yeah, there's stuff I'd love to, you know, I'd love to go and do some of the mountain stuff with NIMS and and some more um big sort of adventure type things. But actually, in terms of T and E, I probably do need to sit down again and really sketch out like where from now do I want to be in five years. But if it just follows this trajectory, like I'd be content. Right now, it's it just feels it feels good, it feels like it's finally after those six years, just coming back together. So I'm sort of riding at the moment, but still the contentment of it getting to hear, and I'm sure once it's embedded in a few months, it will then be okay, right? Let's see where do we want to mate it, take it to the next level. Brilliant, mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:59

So again, recommend all my listeners follow Cy, he's got a ton of wisdom that he pushes out there on social media. Um, connect with him on the website, mate. It's been a pleasure catching up. We've had a good good day of it now. Um, and we'll have to do it again sometime soon. But Sai, cheers for your time, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

Thank you very much. Pleasure to be on here.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:18

Okay, then Sai, I've I've asked you back because we've finished the pod, and then literally a few days after the podcast that we chatted, you uh you released on Instagram um the your misogy and uh and and what that's all about, and then it asking for more people. It got my attention, and it got my attention for a number of reasons, mate. And I'm just gonna read what you put on the Instagram post uh that people can look back on. But it's but the misogyn is you against you doing something that's so hard you're gonna want to quit, and it's going to be hard not to quit because no one is watching, but there's deep satisfaction when you don't quit because you are watching and you rise to the challenge. The misogy can show you the latent potential you have deep within you, it produces a kind of physical and mental toughness that you simply cannot develop in the modern sterile world. Now, I read that, and I and I, all the people I speak to, all the things that I do, the thing that we end up talking the most about is this navigating this uncertainty. And that's I think one of the things that our background gave us we would go into problems, we didn't know how long we were going to be there, we didn't know how we were going to solve that problem, but we knew as a group, as an individual, we had to be there until it was completed. That's what we're talking about here. And I'm I love it. So, Sai, please tell me a little bit more about what you can about misogy.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:44

Yeah. So I read about it in a book, The Comfort Crisis. And basically the whole um concept of misogy, there's essentially, well, the book in itself is the fact that we're so disconnected from nature and probably disconnected from ourselves, like far too much comfort and not enough stepping outside of that. So the idea behind a misogyn it was a group of guys that first um got together and did it, was to do this once or twice a year. It's almost like a hard reset. And the two rules were it's got to be unique and you can't die. So it has to be unique in the sense that you shouldn't be able to measure it against anyone else. So you can measure a marathon or a 5K or whatever it is, against even like a Spartan race, you can measure your times against other people. So this needs to be something quite unique. What they did was they took a 60-pound rock into the ocean, and then between five of them, over six hours of treading water, they just continuously dive down, walk it along the ocean floor, and basically did that. I think they moved it a couple of miles or something. It was like six hours of basically being miserable. Um, and when you do them, the idea is to have a sort of 50% chance of failure rate. So you're really not sure whether you can do it. You know, a marathon is hard, but if you're working towards it and training, there's a higher chance you're going to complete it. If you just walked out your door tomorrow and decided to go and run 30 miles in the hills, it's like, oh, maybe I can do probably 10. I know I can do that, but I don't know if I can do the rest. So it needs to be something that is so physically hard and uncomfortable that it does make you want to quit. And this is where it comes down to that self-talk and also the fact that it is unknown, you've got no idea how it's going to go. And exactly what you said, I think we're quite used to it from uh jobs, but in the military. But the only reason we are is because you're progressively inoculated to that during training, like all the way through training. It is why basic training is so hard. I talked about it in a post the other day. The physical challenges, yeah, they are tough, but it's not really like commander challenges are not the hardest part of training. They're almost the easiest part by the time you get to the end. The hard part is for 24 hours a day for eight months, you're like you're five minutes away from getting thrashed, or you just don't know. You're like, you're always on edge, you're like, I don't know what's coming next. And when you go out into the field, you don't know what you're going to be doing. So you just get progressively better at coping with that. And I guess it comes down to self confidence as well. You are confident in, and if we look at in life in general, with who you are, and that you can cope with whatever happens, and you can break that down into lots of different skills that can help with that, like just focusing on the next on the first steps as opposed to what may or may not. Happen, just focusing on what you can control and not what's out of your control. So there's loads of tactics that you can learn to get better at this, um, which I know you teach and I do with clients that we work with. And Masoji sort of brings this all together in one intense experience, and it's out in nature as well. So you get all the benefits of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:52

I love it. Um, six hours underwater being uncomfortable and miserable. I can relate to that. Um, taught me a lot. But no, uh, I listen to what you're saying, and I think there's there's two things that jump out at me. Well, one, the major thing is that self-talk and managing the self-talk. The biggest challenge here, exactly the same as special forces selection, is uh putting your hand up and volunteering to do it in the first place. Like that is the biggest leap. That is a massive step. And I'm sure a lot of people um would oh, I'd love to do that, but then they don't. And I've heard countless times people that shared that experience with me and live in regret of not having made that step and even trying and understanding what they can do. But then once you're on the selection process, in my experience, the the the biggest challenge was every single day waking up and doing it again, and that is the massive challenge. And I think a lot of what you're talking about there is that's wrestling with this self-talk. That's wrestling with are you good enough? Can you keep going? I think you're at your limit, you your legs are hurting, you're doing some damage to them, all these kinds of messages that people talk to themselves about, calming that down and and reasoning on that and and working with it, not against it, is is the key.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:09

So, mate, I think um along with what you said there on selection, one of the hardest things that a lot of people struggle with is you really don't get any feedback. I don't know if it's changed since I did it or you did it, but you know, you get one or two check-ins with your um DS. But apart from that, you're just constantly there noting things down in a notebook, and that gets into so many people's heads because you always make mistakes, and so they almost just talk themselves into quitting because they believe there's no point in suffering anymore. They fail themselves. Um, when in actual fact they're doing pretty well, but they can't that battle of not having it, and most if you think about it, there's hardly ever in life you don't get feedback on whatever you're doing, and so it's quite hard to be able to sit with yourself. Um, and I guess it you know it comes down to maintaining that confidence that you can achieve what you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:03

Yeah, no, bang on, mate. Um, well, I you know, I'm listening to it. Um, I might even come along, mate. And if I can if I can carve out the time, I'd love to do it. I uh I I implore people listening to to think about it to get involved.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:18

And where can they find out more information about it, please? So we've got another one. By the time this goes out, I don't think there'll be any places that tend to go pretty quickly. We've got the next one is at the end of January, but I'm sure we'll do more, all of our stuff through the Instagram on our email list or the website. We always put it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:35

Brilliant, mate. Well, implore everyone to get involved in it and uh be fast or be last. There might be a few slots left, but uh yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:44

Pays to be a winner, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:46

Pays to be a winner, classic. Right. We'll leave it there, mate. Speak to you. Cheers, guys. See you, mate. Bye bye.