The Duratus Mind - James King - Performance expert and author

The Duratus Mind - A podcast exploring all things mindset and motivation.  Gaz, a former Special Forces Sergeant Major but now performance and leadership consultant, opens up his network to try and understand what motivates some to risk so much, why some are so driven, and what it really takes to achieve success in any sector.

In this episode Gaz speaks with James A King.  James is a performance expert and author of the brilliant book - Accelerating Excellence.  In Accelerating Excellence, James revolutionises the way you perceive excellence, potential and talent, crushing some of the most entrenched assumptions along the way.
 
James draws on his fifteen years of experience as a trusted advisor to some of the worlds most elite and exclusive organisations combined with cutting edge scientific research to reveal the foundational principles that are proven to drive elite performance.
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You will emerge inspired about the possibility that exists before you, enriched with purpose, structure and direction along with a biological and psychological edge over the competition.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Hi James.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Morning guys, you good?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

I'm really good, thanks, mate. Um, so today the Duratus Mine podcast, a podcast born out of understanding how certain people, certain organizations achieve the successes they do. I'm just fascinated by unpicking all of that, uh, and it's led me onto this journey. Uh, and I'm fortunate with some of the network that I'm able to speak to. Now, James, you're someone that our paths crossed in in my former organization. Um, I'd use the term um performance expert in sport, business, uh, other organizations. Um, you're also more recently uh author of uh Accelerating Excellence. Um mate, I genuinely thoroughly enjoyed it. Uh and again, for people looking on YouTube, you can see I'm a highlighter and I'm a marker. There's literally stacks of pink pen in there. Um mate, it was awesome, really enjoyed it. I recommend anyone already to uh get stuck in. And we're going to be discussing that a little bit. But mate, do you mind for the people that may not know um yourself, James, um, sort of what your background, who you are, and how we've come to be talking today, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, absolutely. I guess, I guess starting from the beginning, for as long as I can remember, I've just been um fascinated with human performance. So the statistical anomalies, outlines that you know the perform at the upper limits of human potential, and whether that's I think growing up reading biographies, whether that's like Sir Peter Delabilie, you know, former commanding officers, the SAS, or you know, your Richard Branson's or your top athletes, it's something that just gripped me from a young age. Um then I uh was was lucky enough to go and study the science. So I spent five years at the University of Edinburgh um understanding the mechanics that drive this process, principally excellence and expertise. Um, and and then the last 10 to 15 years, really, I've just been privileged to be in some incredible organizations and taking the theory to practice and hitting it as hard as I can with the biggest metaphorical sledgehammer I could find to see what actually works. Um, yeah, and it's just been an awesome ride, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

So obviously, we we're not going to cover some of the organizations that you've worked with, but in again, some of them in sport. So, do you mind talking about some of the teams that you've worked with, particularly in sport?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, so in an advisory cap uh capacity, I've worked with advised general managers, um, owners, or or managers as you as we describe them in sort of the UK in terms of the Premier League, um, around this concept of you know, how do we build systemically and systematically elite performance? So, I guess the principles I'm talking about stem from performance psychology, um, but I'm not you know, I have done some work in in terms of one-to-one with with elite athletes or um owner CEOs, but but principally I'm sort of stepping back and looking at 30,000 feet. How do we take it from right, how do we even predict a potential superstar that's not a superstar yet, right through to like, right, okay, we've got this potential superstar. How do we upload the software that enables them to be effective in their performance environment? And then and then further down the line on to like, right, okay, we've we've worked so hard to achieve success. How do we sustain it and avoid being the one-hit wonder? So that's that's sort of where I'm looking at in that in that respect.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

No, absolutely, mate. It's quite a hefty book that you've uh put together. Um, what what was the compulsion? What was your what was it that compelled you to write a book and fightlo within the the very busy kind of performance sector that it's it's placing itself in?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I asked myself that question a few times during the process. Um look, principally, you know, call me old-fashioned, but but I'm competitive myself and I want to excel in my own craft. Um, so so there was that selfish reason in terms of, you know, I'd I'd I'd read a number of books by people who strongly advocate that look, if you really want to want to understand your own craft, then write a manifesto on how you do your business. So that was one thing. Um, secondly, look, the information is no good in my head, you know, and and I I love this subject. I think, you know, everyone I meet, I'm like, why the hell doesn't everyone want to study this? And I I can't understand that sort of the principles sort of discussed in the book and I work within my role aren't practiced by more people in more organizations at all levels. Um, so so part of it to me is what is an aim to democratize access to this information that at the moment is kind of reserved for those who have the budget to pay for it. Um, so so I think that that is a sincere um uh ambition of mine with this book. You know, the fact is that if if more people are practicing these principles to overcome uh performance challenges in in areas that are important to them, then you know what we do is we shift the baseline for everyone, you know, whether that's people using them to whatever it is that's important to you, whether that's the environment, uh, you know, party selection or or performing as an athlete, EO, a mum, dad, you know, whatever. Third thing I'll say, guys, I have to get this one across because is that I I was a bit sick and tired as well of the personal development space in terms of books. I think too many of the this there's there's so much great stuff out there, but there was a big gap, I think, in terms of people that have actually studied performance science and communicating those principles. There's a lot of um expert performers giving their take on their unique experience, which of course is important, but that comes with some limitations as well. Um, and and then I think there's also a lot of um journalists writing books on human performance, and I think the problem is that journalists obviously sort of tend to die for the big attention-grabbing headlines, they do a superficial skin of the information, and they don't have the again, something we might talk about later, but the advanced mental structures for that specific area. So they sometimes miss things, and it can cause problems down the line for the people that their their work should serve.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah, now I I agree with everything you say. Um, going back a couple of sentences, you were talking about having these in your mind, and it's kind of you know, that's that's great, and you this knowledge, but there's something about giving back and getting it down on paper. And look, if uh I'm sure that if people read it that they'll they'll be able to understand these principles, these concepts that you talk about, and be able to apply them in life and ultimately have a benefit to what they do. You know, everyone's always a lot of people now modern society are trying to ring out more of what they do. You know, I work quite a lot with uh quite a lot of high-performing corporate teams, uh, more and more so, and how they manage themselves, how they uh operate. You know, we're talking, you know, I use the term corporate athlete quite a lot in the sense of you know, the performance athlete that we all know from the TV recently watching the Olympics, you know, it's very clear to us, and they live a very disciplined lifestyle to get the achievements that they want. In the corporate space, things are very different, and I think there's a lot to be learned from the performance world, performance science. And I know you've got a background in that, but and yourself, I think what's really nice about it is how you haven't just got that academia, you've applied yourself into uh the sporting world. Great success in the corporate world, and I think that's where people can really learn because it to me it seems like this real nice dovetailing of uh both uh academia and experiential. Is that that sound about right to you?

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Absolutely, and and I think to be honest, it is the best thing that happened to me is that, and I think it's partly me expressing my nature and where I'm optimized as a performer myself, but I I've I've um I've spent a lot of time putting the putting the practice to work, you know, and I've been in roles where I've been the CEO of big companies applying this, and and for me, if you're a CEO or you're a leader in your organization, then you're de facto a performance guy, you know, because that's what you're there to do. You're there to lead people towards an objective and you know to overcome the adversity that impedes you uh achieving that objective. And I think that ultimately is a performance task. If you define performance, it is defined, well, I would define performance as the accomplishment of a given task, measured against completeness, cost, and speed. And that whether you're a leader in um SF, uh in um a trading floor or in a sports team, that's your job. You need to get people from A to B, whatever B might be, um, as completely as possible. And completeness is sort of almost where we traditionally focus in terms of performance. So, so for example, you know, uh a perfect 10 in gymnastics is better than a nine, that's a more complete performance, and that's where we we obsess. Um, but then there's that cost. So, what's the cost of getting there? Can we get person A or T B to uh achieve the objective with half the dose, with half the time, effort, money? If we can again we've we've improved performance, it's another really important area to focus on, and then of course, there's that speed element, and that that requires that well, how quickly can we get from A to B and can we repeat that performance on demand under pressure? Um, so so yeah, uh that experiential part, I think, is um it's such a shame, I think, that at the moment in human performance, you've there's this big divide where you've got these incredible leaders, and then you've got these academics, and they sort of don't speak. And I think that link, and that's something that I think I've tried to um, I think it's a gap that I haven't consciously tried to fill, but I think by virtue of my experience having had an academic academic background in in the area, but then and maintained that in terms of my reading and and chartership, so on and so forth. Um, but but actually being out at sort of in the field metaphorically with these different organizations, it's made me see, ah, okay, that's a nice idea, but tell that to this guy now. You know, you tell you you'll know what it feels like to be in situations where you know you those pants shitty moments, you tell someone take three deep breaths, it's like or come on, like you know, the problems start way before that, and I think it's given me this really high definition um conviction in my ability to sort of pick the right tools at the right times and in the right dose for the for the organizations and individuals I serve.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

I love that high definition view. Um, you speak a lot about process, and I think again, my experience is um one of the things I guess that my career gave me was real clear objectives, we called them missions, and we had to create a process to success. And again, by the nature of being in that role for decades, I got quite well practiced at that and you know was able to you know uh bang heads and and share, uh collaborate on those missions with great minds doing very similar. And you know, when I hear you speak, you you you're very clear that you see that you've got to create these processes because sometimes, as you mentioned, just the the problems start way before the catastrophe, right? That the cat the wheels are falling off.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Something that's fucked up way earlier in the process, and absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

So, are you a are you would you say that that's always been something you've been able to do, or is this something that's you've developed this skill?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Well, I'd say it's a combination of both. I've been I've been privileged, privileged enough to have a great education and a great university who where people like the likes of Dave Collins have spent time and the rest of the staff there have spent time working this stuff out, and I've had the privilege to turn up, download a lot of it. But then then, yeah, I have I feel like I've um I've then done what not many people in that space have done in terms of actually building the relationships required and actually entering those specific performance environments, building the relationships to actually and then and then here's the hard bit, guys, like actually getting people, convincing people to try this this new shit out, right? Um, you know, I'm I'm just turned 36 and you know, I'm thinking 22, 23 years old, even if you go back, then it doesn't sound that long, really, 10, 15 years. But if you look at 10, 15 years ago in terms of like human performance, then since then, it's almost been a like like computers in the 2000s, like it's got gone sort of exponential with the likes of Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan, sort of sighting of interview experts, and you know, it's now it's now it's sort of fashionable to be um working on your personal development and so on and so forth. Whereas it wasn't, you know, you'll know, like in the military, it certainly wasn't then. It was like you you wrench it out, you grizz it out, you get it done. And if you're taking supplements, it's a little bit if that guy has the gels, it's a little bit like you know, I did it on baked beans sort of thing, and it was the same in the corporate world, it was like hard work, determination, discipline, willpower-that's it. But trying to sort of the I think the hardest bit I had was a sales pitch behind look, there's a methodology you can apply here that makes it way easier, so that yeah, of course, high performance, you're always gonna have to grizz it out and wrench it here and there, but you know, that there for the emergencies.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, yeah. There's an there's an intelligent way to line up initially, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Again, assets you can call upon should you require, but absolutely you know, you don't have to nuke everything, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Absolutely, absolutely, why not? And then again, I've I've got an experience where you know a colleague of yours came in, uh, and I'd imagine my old organization is probably one of the toughest audiences in the world to initially get trust, right? Because you've got a load of tattooed, broken nose, alpha males on the face of it. Um, again, there's some, you know, there's a broad range of characters, but certainly on the face of it, I'd imagine that's the expectation that you're going into and are met with when you first turn up um day one. And you know, I my experience was that um all of a sudden asking us questions that no one had ever asked us before. One of the questions that I got asked was, you know, Gaz, what are you thinking about on the back of the helicopter when you're going to wherever it was, whatever dangerous mission we were going to? No one had ever asked me that before. And I had that epiphany of wow, that's a great question. I need to think about this. But two, I'd also had that moment where I was like, Well, I've never shared this before with the people that I care about that are alongside me as one of the more senior people. Why haven't I shared and compared notes? And it's people such as yourself that are coming in with both the frameworks, the structures, and say, look, this is these are the tools that are available for these kind of events. And let's talk about how we can apply them in your world so that you can all perform better, manage everything so much better. I always felt quite bad when someone new came into the room. I was thirsty for this, the lessons that we were about to learn. I was always there with a notebook and scribbling away like a bit of a spotter. I love all this, and so what I've worried of how as a group we were perceived. Um, my own experience is again, I work uh quite closely with CT SFO police organizations, and uh again, five minutes in, you've broken the ice, and they're they're thirsty because of their situation, their their high-performing world is that well, it is sometimes life or death, and so everything that they can extract from people of experience, and again, mine is a kind of more lived experience, and this is what worked for me. Um with a tiny little bit of science, I guess. But yours, yours is that much more blended approach. So I'm really pleased that that's uh how it came across.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

You have to be realistic in terms of human performance and affecting change. I always like use the term radicalization, but you almost need to radicalize the right people with the right people, you know. If you can identify, and that's certainly always been my approach. My aim is always to identify the cultural architects within you know the team, the squadron, and then spend your time there. And it has a trickle effect over time. And if you back your principles and you can get a couple of people to engage in them, then ultimately you'll have that smoking gun. Well, because people will start to see the difference in terms of results, performance, or whatever uh intervention you'll you you've put in place to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Absolutely, like you mentioned it, the ethos of special forces is that unrelenting pursuit of excellence. To get that, there needs to be this kind of willingness to adapt to the new background, you know, the new truth, right? And you know, the the the the enemy, so to speak, is always going to be adapting. So you know, you should be prepared too. That's kind of in a in a in its lifeblood. Um, and where are we developing every angle of this? Well, science is one of those things, and being up to date with the current uh readings, being up to date with the current uh findings is absolutely critical. So, you know, I this is you know uh an absolute need, and it's something that you know I I try and help uh other organizations, businesses with myself, and I say I see it uh uh myself with sport an awful lot. What it what fascinates me always, there's um I experienced this just last week with uh one of the big Premier League clubs, and um they'll have 10 strength and conditioning coaches and maybe one performance psychologist, maybe two at best. You know, there's there's a there's this real imbalance in that. I mean, again, I'm just uh shooting from the hip here, James. But you know, have you got any thoughts on that and why? Again, let me just sort of close that question because my experience with people being successful in my old world was this was the thing that we needed to get right and aligned, whereas these biceps probably less important in the grand scheme of things. Obviously, there's a baseline that we need to be at, but in the grand scheme of things, less important than getting this. So, why do you think that there's that's such an imbalance in sport in particular?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Well, I I think I think sport, especially Premier League, is at the forefront with if you look at the classic strength and conditioning and sport psychologists in terms of leveraging those ex sets of expertise. Now, my opinion is that there was that initial hypothesis people had that oh, if we can be bigger, faster, stronger, then we'll just run over people, so on and so forth. Um, so so it sort of makes sense, and I think that's where the boom with SNC. I think also there's no shortage of lads that like love training and go and study in it. So there's a I think there's there's more students of strength and conditioning than there are sports psychology. It's a most people would study sports science, and then even then, they'd move towards the strength and conditioning end of the continuum. There's definitely less opportunities in terms of roles. Yeah, so when you're making that point about do I do go and go down this avenue or that one, well, there's less roles to apply for in the sports psychology space. I also think that um where change is coming is that I think people are accepting now that look, the job of the strength and conditioning coach is no longer bigger, faster, stronger, it's keep him on the pitch so he can develop this. Because this isn't just about like, oh, the mindset, mindset's one part of it, and that's important. But let's be honest, by the time you're working with someone who's you know working at an elite level, in whether that's the military or or in in sport, the mindset's there, you know. It's more like okay, let's keep that plate spinning because they've they've got the hardware required there, otherwise they wouldn't be in the room with you. The the other things that people neglect and I think are slowly starting to get more attention, and there's things I've trying to be, it's a big part for me in the book. Is this look, it's we don't just want bigger, faster, stronger. Elite performance is not about um the physical skills. Of course, they come into it, but really it's kind of minimum thresholds. If I asked you to think of like the hairy situation you've been in, guys, in your career, um, and you you know, or imagine the worst case scenario um you're you're about to sort of go into, and you can pick two or three people that you've worked with over your entire career, and and you can pick them to be with you. My guess is that you're not gonna pick the person with the biggest back squat or the quickest friend time or the best bleep test score. You're gonna pick if we the people you pick, I bet if we were to break them down, you you you want the best problem solvers, you want the best, you know, we heard the word like the best shooter, you want the the guy who can perceive the run the best, the quickest, the guy who can anticipate what's gonna happen, attend to the right information, can recognize patterns, problem solve to solutions. And these are all psychological skills that need to be factored in. Um, and I think because ultimately they're invisible, we still almost think that oh Lionel Messi is so quick as an athlete, he's like, he hasn't got quicker reflexes than other players that he's playing against. He's got a quicker brain, he processes the information because he's got better perceiving skills and better decision-making skills. So he's one step ahead, but he's anticipating things that other defenders aren't. So it looks when you're watching him play like he's got faster reflexes, but he hasn't. He's actually just a better perceiver and a and a faster decision maker. So that that that he makes the game move quicker, and that's the same in all performance environments.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Absolutely, it's it's those it's got more mental models, hasn't he? And so we he's mapped more models onto his environment, and then he's got more experiences. I I talk with people time and time again. This experiences times a thousand makes you more experienced. There's there's no shortcut to that experienced, yeah, apart from these experiences in the right environment. And again, we the that can be optimized absolutely. Absolutely, I'm kind of one of the things.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Absolutely. And this is it. Like, this is where for me, I know one of the things we've talked about is the 10,000 hours rule. Like, yes, it's important, you need that experience, but it, you know, that's a flawed study for one. Um, it in that it was you're looking at 14 performers in one specific area where the what one of the individuals reached excellence in in 2,700 hours, one took 28,500 hours. I think the mean average was 11 and a half thousand hours. You know, um in reality, what human performance as a science does is actually go, hey, let's look at the individual that did it in 2700 hours, and let's break down the causal mechanisms that enable them to do it four, five, ten times faster than these other experts, you know. And when we do that, when it comes to skill acquisition and this ability to perceive and see your craft in high definition faster than the the people, the enemy, the competition, that stems from not the time spent training, but the time spent training under some very specific conditions. And there's there's there's there's about seven, and and it's like the more time you spend under those conditions, the greater a perceiver you're gonna be, the faster a decision maker you're gonna be, and you'll still maintain that again, slick slick execution skills are obviously important.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, um, and you know, I I implore people to to get stuck into the book because they're they're they're fascinating. And again, as a man, you know, myself that's uh thought about this an awful lot, you know, you you open my mind again to sort of some some novel concepts, and I absolutely love it again. Um not necessarily a novel concept, but a word that you use throughout the book. I I've never seen the word used quite so much, um, you know, is a word concordance. Um it wasn't one that was like regularly uh appearing in my vocabulary, but you know, it is more so now thankfully because of you, because I I buy into it so much. Again, do you for the people that maybe don't understand concordance? Because again, optimizing people's experiences will be them being in concordance with what they're trying to achieve. But can you uh elaborate somewhat?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Look, like look, we we we know what it takes to excel, what drives elite performance, the scientific forces driving that process. Um, we know how to break that process down into its component parts and bring individuals or organizations to alignment with it. Now, concordance, like you know, it's the one mechanism that that all elite performers have aligned with more than anything else. Like, nothing comes before this in terms of trying to build excellence. Um, it's born out of what we call self-determination theory in sports psychology, but in essence, it's this um just like a tennis racket has a location at which the ball will rebound away from the racket at a greater velocity than if struck at any other point, so do you. Um, and you perform from your sweet spot when the goals that you pursue and the way that you pursue them aligns with the qualities that make you unique. So, what happens is when you perform from this sweet spot, you gain complete access to your what we call your I like the I use the term psychological firepower. So, what I mean there is your confidence, motivation, resilience. These are all part of like a predatory circuitry in our brain, and they all flow from the these emotions, they all flow from the same same part of our brain. And um, you know, when you perform from your sweet spot, you're driven by the that's the default, you're you're driven by internal compulsion to be confident, be motivated, be resilient. There aren't people that um lack resilience or or motivation or confidence, there are just people pursuing goals that fail to ignite those traits in the first place. Um, that resilience isn't a fixed entity or a gene, um, it's something that you can achieve a lot more of, and you do so by by pursuing concordant goals. So there's there's three key areas so your strengths, your interests, and your values. So when the goals leverage your unique strengths, and you you the goal is in an area that's of sincere interest to you, and the rewards for achieving the goal align with your values, that's when you're banging your sweet spot. Um, and I don't would it be useful if I break down each of those components?

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Mate, please do, please do. This is fascinating. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

So, like to me, guys, this is everything. If you're not mastering this, then just forget all the other stuff because nothing comes at the expense of getting this right. Um, so strengths, what we're talking about there is that we have this nature-nurture debate, it's both, and there's no geneticists, sports scientists, anyone with a brain that would argue you you need both. And in terms of your unique hardware, you need to pursue goals where your strengths are a weakness and your weaknesses don't matter. Um, and the reason this is so important is that strengths dictate how responsive to training you'll be. So, if gaz, say for instance, you've got strengths in a specific area, maybe you've got a higher VO2 max than me as a baseline from a genetic uh set point, or you've got you know, your hip to knee ratios, and you've got an extra foot on me, and we're we're we're trying to pursue the same goal in rowing. The reality is you're gonna be more responsive to training, you're gonna have more breakthrough moments than me. And if you have two breakthrough moments, a training cycle, and I have one, over five or six training cycles, you're gonna be so far ahead of me that I'm never gonna catch you up, no matter how hard I try or how ambitious I am. Um, so so we really need to make sure that we identify our unique strengths, strengths, and then probably in three specific areas. So we've got uh obviously there's the obvious physical strengths, and that's relevant, obviously, if you're an athlete or an operator. Um but then of course there's the cognitive strengths. So uh maybe your pattern recognition is great, or you're really good with words, or your numbers, you can just do them in your head, whatever it might be. There's all sorts of different we have a cognitive anthropometry, just like we have a physical anthropometry, and you know, you if you don't have a baseline VO2 max over say 60, 65, and you've got a hit to knee ratio over I don't know what it might be exactly, but really big one, then you're not gonna win a gold medal in Rowan, uh, you know. So so these are like the non-negotiable hardware requirements that qualify you for success in the craft.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

So it's really important to identify where you are on there, and then uh maybe maybe not of interest to you, but I'm gonna throw it out there anyway. I'm I'm quite high on the ape index. Uh, if you're familiar, so my my arm length to height ratio, yeah, yeah, very similar to not quite as significant as Phelps, um, who did pretty well at swimming. So, like well, there you go, climbing, sparring with the jab, rather than uh I'm never going to be a press or world champion, I'm never going to hold the world record for bench press, right? So I can kind of live with that. So you know, and just understanding these things, know thyself is is what I help people to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Yeah, absolutely, guys. And just like physically, we've got the same cognitively, and you need to sort of spend the time to break that down and really know yourself and then to your own self be true. And this is this is uh where I think so many of us skip this and in leadership, and and you know, one of the things I'm sure this is sort of questions you'll ask with the people you work with, but it's like if you're managing a team, do you know what the strengths of the individuals in that team? And you want to set people up for success, then get them to pursue goals where they're aligned with their strengths. This the second key thing, though, is is interests. So um, interests are things we're instinctually drawn to, they're instincts. The thing that drives our interests literally sits in the same part of our brain as thirst and hunger. So, like you have a third, like whether it's like uh motorbikes or or the military, I know you've talked about as a young guy, like you're drawn to it. It's you you can't explain why. You don't get to pick your interests, they pick you. Um and the reason interests are so powerful is that they dictate your ability to invest time in a consistent and specific direction, which is obviously critical if you're going to achieve any goal. And that's why you've got to be honest with yourself and be like, look, sit back, reflect, but what am I sincerely interested in here? And that could be more broadly in terms of like a graduate thinking, where do I start my career? Are my interest in the military or in finance or in sport, or but also to very specifically whether you're working with a top NFL player, like what are my interests on the pitch, or or whether you know what do I enjoy doing? Where am I drawn to? Um, or in a squadron, what what are things that I just enjoy that other people don't? And how do I do more of that? Because if I spend more time in that area, I'm gonna access more of this psychological firepower. Um, and the key thing with interest is like you don't need to motivate a child to play, like it's as simple as that. And when we're interested in things, we almost want to break them down and build them back up again, and and it's irrational, and and and that's you know, the the evolutionary purpose of our interests is to guide us uh along our path of maximal development. So it's really important to spend the time reflecting on these things.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Have you got uh any kind of you know, I we talk about self-reflection all the time, um to increase your self-awareness as well. But again, have you got any kind of with regards to people finding that sweet spot, you know, that knows those particular strengths as to how they can focus their attention on that rather than just sitting there? Again, I had someone message me the other day, Gaz. How you know, how do you do go about doing your gratitude journaling? You know, it's like, well, you know, how do I actually do it? Yeah, how you know what's the what's how can you help people with understanding? You know, how can they focus their attention on that sweet spot to even understand where where it might be?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, well, well, obviously, in the book, there's a ton of questions, and I'm happy to send them over to you, Gaz. Obviously, there's quite a few. Maybe if people are interested in this, you could is that you could post them up so there's some reflective questions people can I'd I'd tell everyone, I'd tell everyone to buy the book. Um there's also links in there that I'll also send across, though. Um look, there's online um in terms of strengths, there's online cognitive uh assessments you can do that will say where you are in the normal distribution curve, in terms of wow, you're really good with numbers or you're slow with words, and you're you know, you know, it'll give you a mapping of like a heat map of where you seem to excel. And again, you don't have to be when I say strengths, I don't mean you have to be like the fastest kid in your class, but I mean like you have to be if you want to be uh pursue a goal where speed is really important, you kind of want to be to the right end of that, you know. Um, then there's some personality, we have personality strengths as well, so that's gonna affect where you're optimized, and there's a ton of a great free personality tests online that I can send you the links to that people can can engage in. Um, with interest, I think it's best to do the reflective questions that I can send across. Um and and it's the answers are already there, they're influencing what you are doing now. The fact that the individual with you know we're having this conversation with is listening to this podcast is a clue in itself, and and it's like, where do you spend your time? If I came in your house now and I looked at the books on your bookshelves, and then I looked at the ones you actually read. What are they? What podcasts do you actually listen to? Which ones have you listened to a couple of times? What's unique about those? What are the themes? Um, who do you hang around with? What's unique about them? Who are your heroes? What what why they're your heroes, what inspires you about those individuals? There's tons of these questions we just need to take the time to reflect. Um, and then what's really important is that look, it's once you've identified a strength, or once you've identified an area of interest, just move towards it. It's not about uh concordance, it certainly not a game of perfect. You'll drive yourself crazy if you try and you know, where's my like hit the nail on the head sweet spot? It's something that moves, and it's something that you zero in on, and um, you'll get clues, and as you move closer to it, you'll get more psychological firepower, you'll get more confidence, you'll get more learnings, you'll try things on. You might realize, well, actually, shit, I thought it might have been it, but that's definitely not. And it and it guides you back on track. Um, you just need to listen to that sort of that intuition, but the questions can certainly be useful.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

I was just gonna say, just as uh I'm actually stood right next to my uh bookshelf right now. Um, and it's funny, I was talking about the 10,000-hour rule. You know, this is Anders Erickson's peak, um, uh the the father of the 10,000 hour rule study, really. Um and you know, you haven't so much debunked what he what he wrote about um or studied and and reported, it's more like let's let's distill that down. And and you know, yes, anyone with success in their field, they haven't got there by chance, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

They're they're there because there's a considerable amount of time and effort put into this, and you know there's a considerable amount of time and effort, but it's way more confident, complex than just time. And I've got to be honest, like to me, it if it took me as a performance expert or as a partner in the businesses and organizations I've been in, if it took me 10,000 hours to sort of manufacture a world-class performer, I'd be out of job. Like, I've seen, like from my own experience, I've seen guys go from zero straight Civi to special forces super soldier in way less. I've seen guys from straight Civi to hedge fund manager in way less. I've seen athletes in less than four years go from nothing to Olympia. You know, it's it really is about the extent to which you're aligned with a few key fundamental principles. Yes, time is obviously going to be one of them, but it's more like uh, I mean, for instance, one of the principles is that you talk about in terms of talent development and skill acquisition or the acquisition of expertise, would be time you spend in the adaptive zone. So the adaptive zone, like when you impose demands on yourself or those you care for, manage, or lead that exceed their capacity, you create a performance gap. Now, that gap is the catalyst that sparks your genetics to adapt to a superior level. Now, the more time you spend in the adaptive zone, the more responsive you're gonna be to training. So if you're doing three hours training, but you're thinking about how many swipes you got on Tinder or grinder at the weekend, or what you're gonna have for dinner, or daydreaming looking at the cloud that looks like the shape of a cow or something, you're not getting better. So it's it's the time spent in the adaptive zone. And in the adaptive zone, you know, you should be sort of hands-clasped, pupils dilating, eyebrows squish together, your forehead furrows, you like you feel your heart pound, your mind churn, your you, you know, anything puts something in front of your hand, your eyes shouldn't burn holes through it, that's the adaptive zone, and it's time spent there that matters most, not just time spent at the gym or time spent in the environment. Um, and that's that's one of the one of the examples that will again accelerate your pursuit.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

I I love that. You know, again, I I think uh psychologist Bardwick spoke about the the stretch zone. Uh, and again, but it's it's finding those areas and those interests that you've got where nothing else matters, right? Stephen Cox he talks about flow, uh, and this is the same the same thing, but it's it's finding your way to be in that space with the intention of you know personal development or growth in your particular field, whatever that field might be. Um it's challenging to do that. And these you mentioned the kind of furrowed brow, the focus, the attention that's required, also within that. Um, you know, and again, my own experiences, one of the things that challenged me, continues to challenge me when I'm in those particular spaces. Sometimes it's with the kids, sometimes it's with work, sometimes it's with colleagues that I'm working with, um, is that emotional control? And there's an amazing chapter or a couple of uh chapters in the book where you go in you go quite a deep dive into emotional control. And um some of the information or books I've read in the past, Professor Steve Peters talks a lot about um uh different colour head, redheaded and blue headed, and and you kind of elaborate and you develop that. Do you mind kind of covering a little bit on that, you know, on on uh the four colour the four-color head model that you you talk about in the book?

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Sure, like I'm glad you enjoyed it. Ultimately, you can you can you can pick concordant goals and you can expose yourself to the right training conditions, but then it's time to compete on demand under pressure. You need to be able to access all the technical ability you've got in your tank. Um, and as a if you if you think of the traditional performance psychologist, for me also, I would label it as a CEO, uh an RSM, a sergeant majela, any leader, uh captain of a sports team, the manager of that sports team, there's three primary responsibilities, and this model sort of demonstrates them. So there's almost four performance zones you can find yourself in at any point in time. When it's time to compete and train, there's only one that's optimal for performance, and that's what I describe as blue head or blue zone. So, in this zone, you've got high output of attention and it's laser-like focus on the task at hand, and the emotions you experience are really positive. So, adjectives that might describe how you feel in here might be confident, aligned. One one performer I worked with who's pretty damn elite, said, I feel like a god in here. And in this zone, this is the stuff we all dream about. This is what Cotler will talk about, this is what he means. He's talking about flow state. So flows are defined as a harmonious experience where mind and body become one and the task just becomes effortless. You lose track of time and sensation, and you just you just deliver. It's for like Ben Stokes, the ball coming at him is in slow motion like a beach ball and he just wallops it out of the park. Um, you know, it's like Michael Phelps feels like he's plugged into a nuclear reactor. Um this is the states that you experience in flow, and there's a chemical um symphony going on here of indestructibility, and your brain releases the big six. So we've got anandinide, uh, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, um, dopamine, and serotonin all release on they come online the right sequence, right time. And it's like taking the limitless pill, you know. Um, so characteristics that describe people in this involved, it you know, all that stuff you need to do, all that performance or the level you've demonstrated historically can be accessed on demand under pressure. You're plugged into your unconscious your mind, it just takes over and it just gets the job done. And and and that's that's the first aim for any leader, right? When it's time to compete or train, I want the athletes, the operators, bang, top right of that that deep dark blue. I want that tension laser-like on task at hand, I want it feeling good and leveraging all those benefits. Um then, of course, so you're in your performance environment going along, and then you know, whether it's a bad referee indecision, uh, your partner giving you grief, the news, it could be a million and one things, but something can happen in your environment and it can just shunt you into what I'd call the red zone. So, here you've still got a high output of attention, it's still focused on the task at hand, but now there's some negative emotion here. So, frustration, you just got the ump, you're angry, bored, these sorts of things can kick off. That could be like um, you know, you can still perform in here, but there's some side effects now. For starters, your blood flow diverts from your unconscious brain towards your emotional brain and your conscious brain. And the risk here is that you overthink things, and elite performance is just totally unconscious. So, any thinking when we go to our conscious brain risks interrupting that, and that's the classic choking we see. We've seen Rory McRoy, you know, have some experience on the 18th hole, starts to overthink things uh uh and chokes. Um, we saw it, we saw it with young Emma Emma Radakanu at Wimbledon, who then just burst back like a machine to obviously deliver on the US Open, which was just immense. Um, it's a very real thing, it happens to all of us. There's some problems there. The first one's obviously the performance one for the reason we've just discussed. But secondly, uh in this zone, you know, we swap out the big six, and now we're running on like the three stress hormones so quartzol, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. And and they can sustain performance, but there's problems. Uh they're they're very inefficient, so we're gonna run out of energy very quick. And also, like from a health perspective, quartz cell is linked to almost every disease known to man, so you know it's not good to spend too much time in there. From a behavioural perspective as well, when you're in the red zone, you know all that stuff you know you shouldn't do, but you sometimes do. That always happens in redhead, that never happens when you're in blue head, and it's because you're you're hardwired to seek some form of instant gratification, and when we feel that negative emotion for a prolonged period with those hormones, the cortisol adrenaline, that's when we order the junk feud, skip rehab, don't turn up to training, you know, even alcoholism, promiscuity, all those things and those mistakes happen when we're spending time in there. So the second aim, I think, of leadership teams is to ID where your team, or you know, and as an individual, where you are on that barometer and be like, notice when they're in that red zone, get them back, help make sure they've got strategies to get them back on track as soon as possible. Spend too much time in there, and you're gonna end up uh in what I'd call like blackhead. So it in this zone, you've got no energy left, your cortisol is just burnt through it, you've got no attention to spend, so it's just sort of like all over the place, and you still feel negative. So this is this is classic burnout. And at this point, um, you know, it's uh it's pathological. So you your blood pressure is going to be high, you might have. Have anxiety or depression, you might have chronic fatigue syndrome, it might manifest in another way, unique to where maybe you've got a genetics predisposed weakness with your immune system, but you can't perform in there. And the first thing you need to do when you're in there is speak to someone, and that's obviously really important, whether it's your mate or reach out to someone that's really important. So I advocate whenever we sort of talk about this team and this model to um to any sort of performers. The thing with with burnout is it's a sneaky where I it like redhead, you feel it like a kick in the nut. So you you know it's ah, and you just you do your nut in and you sort of you know where you are. Blackhead could be something you don't just work out where you you don't just wake up one day, burnout. It's this progressive process from you know, maybe just taking on too much, um, lack of recognition for your work, pursuing uh goals that you're not concordant with is the big one. And this is why for me concordance comes first because forget getting into blue head if you're not pursuing concordant goals, it's not going to happen. You just won't experience it. Also, it's a lot harder to manage your emotion. You get out of redhead if you're not again not pursuing concordant goals. And then subsequently, skill acquisition piece we would talk about the right type of training. If you're not technically prepared for the demands you're imposed of, then of course, you know how can you expect to be in this flow state? You you can't, it's stupid. You're gonna be in redhead, and part of training in the adaptive zone will be quite a lot of oscillation between red and blue head, and it's managing that balance right, and that that's a bit of an R. But I guess the final aim and the most important one uh is green green zone or greenhead. So here we're expending a very low amount of attention, it's not focused on much at all, but we feel good. So adjectives that describe how we're feeling here would be chilled out, horizontal, relaxed, just and we need to schedule time for that. Um in here again, hormonally, we've got this whole different set of hormones kicking in, the recovery, restorative hormones. So, again, more of the serotonin, dopamine, um, a lot of similar to the big six, but without some of the norepinephrine and the alert type hormones, but also the sex hormones, the testosterone and estrogen, these recovery repair hormones. And greenhead's really the zone of restoration. The work you do in blueheads, where we're exposed to challenges, whether that's cognitive skills, physical tasks, they're just a spark that ignites adaptation to take place. But the adaptation and the supercompensation, the growth of your skills can only occur in green zone. And this is why the recovery aspect is so important, um, and and it's so overlooked by by many people.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

James, there's there's there's a ton of stuff there. I uh again, everyone that's just listened, uh I implore you to rewind maybe five minutes, whatever it was, and listen to that again. Are we as simple as four different areas? No, of course not. This is a model that helps us to see when these things we're transitioning, maybe from one to the other, and how we can optimize what we're doing. Again, my experience is one of the biggest things that you've just said at the end there that people, whether they're the very top of their game in law firms, whether they're the very top of their game in sport, is finding time for this green zone, this green head where they can really invest back in themselves to be ready the following moment, the following uh event, the following mission in my old world, to be able to get into the blue zone. People are burnt out because they're not focusing time on this, um, and even understanding what they can do in this space. I mean, again, from your experiences, James, you know, how are you helping people to, or how have you seen the best ways of helping people to transition from this blue, blue, red, or black into this green, this green zone?

SPEAKER_00 48:29

So, again, it starts with taking the time to reflect and it starts with some personal leadership if you if you're working as an individual, like look, it's on you, it's your future, it's your responsibility, you take the lead of it all, right? Like, you can't rely on your manager to schedule your green zone. I I wish you could, and if I was speaking to them, then I'd certainly try and help out there. But I guess in this conversation, we're speaking to individuals on a podcast, and it's like, take ownership of it. It's not rocket science. Stop making excuses. You need to sit down, you can draw this full zone thing out, and you'd be like, What things, when have I felt those emotions described in blue hair? What was I doing? Who was I with? What was unique about those moments? And then try and manufacture more of that in your environment. Same with Redhead. What things, what people consistently drag me into red zone? Is it always that person or that news channel or take ownership of it, delete it, remove what you can? Um the the with with Blackhead, it for me it's more about just make sure you've got a couple of people around you, or someone that you you can speak to if you're in there. Because sometimes it's hard to get your way out there. It's really easy. The solution, the antidote is to just green zone and your body will rebalance um the symptoms that send you there. However, it's sometimes difficult to spot that. But um, you know, characteristics of being in there are like, you know, you're losing. So for instance, gas, you know, you there might there'll be periods where perhaps throughout your career you've been like, look, you're you're highly concordant by the virtue of what you achieved in your career as an SF operator. But I've no doubt there are moments where you've you had those like, well, I'm not even doing this, this is because you do that's classic symptom of burnout. You fall out of love with a thing you've been in love with your whole life, and it can you can even, I'm not a classic, I'm not a relationship expert, but it's the same principle. It's like it's because you burn out and you need some recovery, and it's and you just need to reverse those symptoms, but but but then in terms of recovery, here's a good question, and I'd like to ask you it, but because I know you're better at this now than you probably were, but like, when was the last time you scheduled time to just completely relax and detach? Something just for gas, not for your partner or your children or your colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

No, and again, uh you know, implore people to understand this, you know, and again, for a bit extra background on that, James. You know, you know, we we've not planned this, but I'm really clear in this because it's something I've spent some time thinking about. You know, the military, especially early days, the Marines, let's use them as an example. That's certainly my example. They teach you certain disciplines, um, and they will discipline you if things don't go well and you don't do well in those areas. The difference for me is going into special forces and spending a you know a vast majority of my career in that world, they're not looking to discipline people, they're not looking for people to have to be told more than once or twice about something. They want self-discipline, and exactly what you said, take ownership of that. It's ownership, isn't it? And so for me, and again, my experiences leaving the military actually, I lost a lot of the structure that the job afforded me that I was probably unconscious of. So being self-employed, I could literally sit around in my pants all day and no one's ever going to say anything. Well, Karen, my wife would, but uh, apart from that, what for the boss, um, she, you know, she would no one would say anything. I know, but um that never happened, you know, because I'd like to think that I've developed self-discipline, and that self-discipline helped me to realize firstly, quite a you know, I'd say a high level, I'd like to think anyway, of interception, so an understanding of what's going on inside my body. You know, I'm I'm aware when I'm running hot, I'm aware, um, because I've I've spent many months or years there running too hot, and maybe things have you know, the wheels have started to fall off, and I've needed to get myself into that green space to afford myself that time. Me now, uh James, I um Friday afternoons from a lifetime in the military, I was always traveling home. So if I was in the UK, so that time was always spent frustratingly in a car, um wishing I could get home sooner when I was stuck on the 834 uh traffic jam. And so now Friday afternoons now for me are untouchable. They're for me, you know, until the children come home from school where I get to do what I want to do. And it seems really selfish, but you know, it's this uh I I read about uh Patagonia, the clothing company. I they live on they live in California, they're based in California, I think, and then on the West Coast, and you know, they afford their staff um half a day a week um to go surfing, and you know, people want to work for Patagonia, it's the same thing, it affords them that time. I know Google have Google time for their staff where they um get cut time carved out to do the things that are concordant to them, they're the time that they want to do. For me, Friday afternoons, and I get to do the things that I want to do. And for me, whether it's Pareto's principle, the 80-20 rule, that's enough for me to. I mean, there's other times through the week that I've got control over my time now, which is why I do what I do, but um, that is the time that I I won't no one can touch it, and unless I want them to, and and that's that's for me or for me to do the things with the people that I want to do with.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

And that's a that's a brilliant example of of putting this to work. And and I think one of the things I'd like to highlight is that look, managing yourself around this barometer, it starts with just the ability to identify where you are on it. So don't beat yourself up if you're in the red zone. If you've identified you're in there, you're on the way to sort of growing this ability to regulate your emotions. So that's like victory. Every time you identify in the red zone here, or I'm running hot, like that's that's phase one. Phase two is then looking to just if you can just identify one small thing again, it's not a game of perfect, like even if it's like look, within the constraints I've got, because there's acute and chronic green zone, like the the chronic example might be like, right, I'm gonna have a sabbatical or I'm gonna have my two-week holiday a year. Like, I I really like in the companies I work with, we sort of have a rule whereby every quarter you need to have a week out of the office, and annually you need to have two weeks. Um, and certainly on some of the training floors I've worked in, I've had to walk around and hit people with a stick to be like, go home. Like, if you're not if you're still sat there at four o'clock, you're going home because there's this they're so concordant with their craft, they're almost addicted to it, and that's the danger of elite performance, it's very addictive. And one of the few things that can derail elite performers is this over-training um principle. But also, like just look for you can build in spikes of green zone throughout your day, whether it's just taking I'm gonna do 10 minutes of head space in the morning. If you hate headed meditation, don't do it, like do what you're concordant with in terms of green zone. A green zone for you is playing modern warfare, call of duty, or FIFA, or whatever it might be, or reading your book, just get 10 minutes of it, get get 10 minutes at lunchtime, but try and schedule little bounce of green head throughout the day, even if it's like you've got a particular pal at work that you that makes you laugh, or you you don't schedule that, meet them for lunch, go somewhere you enjoy. Like, just you've got to try and search for just one, two things. And I guarantee you, as soon as you do one, you'll spot the next one. It takes one little breakthrough to perceive the possibility of the next. Maybe you have to earn that opportunity. Maybe you have to go to your boss and say, like, look, I'm delivering this, but in return, can I get this hour here or there for the gym or for that? And and it's a process of negotiation and and ownership, but but these are non-negotiables. You will elite performance and not just elite performance, the sake of having a life and quality of health alongside your achievement. You need to oscillate. The aim's got to be oscillation between blue head, greenhead. Bluehead, when I'm competing and training, blue head. When I'm when I'm not, I want to be in the green zone. And I even look at that through the course of a day, not just the season or the time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Yeah, yeah. It was one of the things I was wondering to to to plug you on with regards to that that performance day and and that that arc that we can have, you know. We can't again, we're not going to. I implore people, like I said, to to get stuck into the book. There's a ton of gold in there that um, you know, I I personally took took from it and we'll continue, we'll continue to use, you know. Um going to start trying to wrap this up, James. Again, always conscious of time. I I I could sit and I'm sure we will sit in the not too distant future and talk around and kick this around some more. But um people listening, you know, this is a podcast about them trying to get more out of what they're maybe doing now, maybe they don't feel particularly concordant with what they're doing. Um, maybe they're absolutely concordant with what they're doing, but they they feel like they've got more to give. And you know, so what advice would you give on on those people maybe starting to pursue that that achieving their own excellence?

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Look, this is gonna sound I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but it's actually to be honest, read the book because um there are a set of principles you can align with, and it's not a debate, they will accelerate your pursuit of excellence in your craft and shift the baseline of like the health, your happiness alongside of it. And what you really need to do is you are the expert on you. And the reason I wrote this book is that I wanted it to be an operation manual rather than an entertaining read so that people can identify look, you know, like you said, Gaz, I'm all over the concordance bit, but got my training, I'm not aligned with the right principles. That's going to be where my accelerators are, that's where I need to focus my effort. It enables you to be your own coach, that's the whole point of the book, that you'll be able to identify where are you not aligned with these principles and which ones can you come into alignment quite easily and do that, go with the easy stuff. Um, there's not if I had to say one thing for me, it would just be obviously the concordance, but it's listen to yourself, take time to reflect. But you need to understand what actually drives elite performance, and until you've got that comp that foundational understanding, I think it's it can be very much one of the challenges, I think, is that the personal development space is like a charged fire hose to the face. You know, we're bombarded with promises of ease, fast, easy change, uh, whoop bands, aura rings, kale smoothies, waking up at 4 a.m., channeling you're in a navy seal. I've read about lunchtime quidditch sessions of the new key to lead performance. Like it's so confusing. And whilst these are all potentially great habits to form, you know, um they're one percenters and they're marginal gains. The the fundamental principles that will drive your pursuit of excellence uh are sort of way deeper than that. The con is the concept of concordance, pursuing concordant goals, aligning with the principles of best practice in terms of your training, managing yourself around the barometer, and then innovating and adapting to stay ahead of the rest and keeping a finger on the pulse with all these things.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Um, I I love that. Um, it it kind of ties quite nicely into your your quote in the book. Um, one of my favorites from it, actually, that you can you can BS talking, but you can't BS doing. And a lot of what you've just spoken about, um, you know, there's a lot of BS out there, right? There's an awful lot. Um, and it's those people that's probably too harsh in the sense of there's there's there's truth to what these things and adjustments you can make and have on you, but we're talking the one percenters, you know. What we're talking about, and I hope people have drawn from this chat today, is actually you know, rather than focusing on the icing, we need to look at the cake, right? And and how do we uh probably the worst analogy going, but how do we get to understand what are the what's the cake? And that's concordance, and and people can uh spend some time on those fundamental principles and really get a good look if they if they take the book and have a real deep dive on it. So, James, I I really appreciate your time today. Um, have you got anything, I guess, um last thing for anyone listening to uh to take away from our chat today?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Yeah, I guess last message would be to everyone is that I think this is so important, but like excellence is not about doing extraordinary things, it's about doing ordinary things extraordinary, extraordinarily well. And it's just you need to understand the basics, master the basics, and and you you have no idea what you're you're capable of and how much potential exists within you when you come into alignment with these principles.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Yeah, I know. James, thanks for that. I couldn't think of a better way to round it off. So uh again, um, thank you for your time today, and uh, I look forward to uh chatting some more.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Well absolute pleasure, guys, and yeah, hopefully we do it again soon. Cheers, man. All the best