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Make An Impact Podcast
Make An Impact Podcast
Beyond Systems: Building a Self-Improving Culture in the NHS
What if we stopped trying to "fix" the NHS and focused instead on releasing its untapped potential? This episode challenges conventional thinking about healthcare improvement through an eye-opening conversation with GP Ben Allen.
Ben offers a refreshing perspective that moves beyond the binary notion of a "broken" NHS, suggesting we focus on continuous optimisation rather than wholesale system transformation. "It's always going to be in various degrees of broken and fixed," he explains, highlighting how the most meaningful changes often emerge from within existing structures when the right approach is taken.
Through his dual role as both a practicing GP and healthcare innovator, Ben shares practical strategies that have transformed his practice into "one of the most improved in the country." From creative uses of social media for preventative healthcare to innovative leadership approaches that empower staff to follow principles rather than rigid rules, his methods demonstrate how significant improvements can be achieved without massive structural overhauls.
Particularly fascinating is Ben's vision for community-based care through digital forums. By creating Facebook groups where patients can share experiences and receive guidance from both professionals and peers, he's pioneering cost-effective alternatives to resource-intensive consultations. "A one-to-one consultation with a doctor is a very high resource way of getting anything done," he notes, imagining how similar models could transform waiting lists for procedures nationwide.
The conversation culminates in a powerful message about leadership and potential. By seeking out people with leadership qualities who wouldn't necessarily put themselves forward and giving them autonomy, Ben has witnessed remarkable transformation. His approach offers hope for anyone working in healthcare: even when resources are constrained, focusing on unleashing potential creates "breathing space" that enables further improvement.
Connect with Ben online at benallengp.net, on LinkedIn, Twitter (@BenAllenGP), or read his blogs on Medium to learn more about his innovative approaches to healthcare improvement.
Hi, I'm Heidi Fisher, the host of the Make an Impact Podcast. I'm an impact measurement expert, passionate about helping you make a bigger impact in the world by maximising the impact your services have.
I can help you to measure, manage and communicate the impact you have better to funders, investors, commissioners and other stakeholders, and to systemise your data collection and analysis so that it frees up time and doesn't become an additional burden.
I love helping you to measure social and economic impacts, including Social Return on Investment or value for money assessments, as part of understanding the change you make to peoples' lives.
You can get in touch via LinkedIn or the website makeanimpactcic.co.uk if you'd like to find out more about working with me.
Welcome to Make an Impact podcast, where we dive deep into the stories, strategies and solutions that drive real change. I'm Heidi Fisher and I work with organizations on a mission to tackle poverty, reduce health inequalities and create lasting social impact. In each episode, I bring you inspiring conversations with changemakers, social entrepreneurs and thought leaders who are making a difference. Whether you're looking to boost your impact measurement, learn from innovative projects or find fresh ideas to transform your work, you're in the right place. Welcome to today's episode of the Make an Impact podcast. Today, I'm joined by Ben Allen. Ben, do you want to just introduce yourself to the audience?
Speaker 2:Sure, thank you, heidi. Yes, I'm Ben Allen. I'm a GP in Sheffield. I've worked at the ICB previously as a clinical director and now I spend half my week in practice and half of my week doing all sorts of social convening and various things that I could end up talking about. That are all not really a job role but probably take up most of my time and thought they're all not really a job role but probably take up most of my time and thought Thank you.
Speaker 1:The reason why we've got Ben on the podcast is because recently I posted about fixing the NHS whether it could or should be fixed, and Ben had quite a lot to say about that, didn't you. So, ben, do you think we can fix the NHS, or should we even attempt to?
Speaker 2:can we fix the NHS, or should we even attempt to? So yeah, I guess my critique of the kind of language of it being broken and being fixed is I find a little bit unhelpful. In the sense that it's a public service, it requires a lot of funding. It's really important. It's in tension with all the other things that we try to fund centrally, often things that play into health, and my interest and my take on it is all around how do we make it the best it can be, how do we optimize it, how do we improve it? And it's always going to be in various degrees of broken and fixed, and so I guess that would be my way of thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Actually, that's quite a nice way to think about it, so it's like it's less broken than it was before. One of the things that I've seen is that often the conversation immediately goes to we need a new system. We need to connect our systems up within the NHS if we're going to make the service better and I'm always like no system is going to provide a better patient outcome necessarily it might make things quicker or easier. What are your thoughts around that?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question because often when we do big system change there are repercussions of that that could be really positive. But I think something that's maybe underestimated is quite how costly it is to make a change, how much that kind of costs in terms of time and in terms of what could be used with that kind of effort and brainpower and innovation if that was used within the system that we have. Yes, it's very difficult to say. It's the kind of thing that you could probably only really say probably 10 years down the line. If there was a particular system change that had really significant implications further down the line, then you could point back to it. It's hard at the point where you're making the case because often there is a good argument to be made, but I think we often underestimate the turmoil that the change makes and I probably haven't been around in the NHS for quite long enough interested in these things to be able to have an informed perspective on it. I would have said Fair enough.
Speaker 1:So you said that you haven't been around in the NHS long enough to make that kind of informed opinion about it. Obviously you're a GP by trade and you said you spend a lot of your week convening and doing other bits and pieces. What is that other stuff that you're doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I guess it's come about from in my practice. I really got interested in leadership, improvement, change. I didn't know how to do it. I read loads of books, mostly around organisational development, organisational psychology, that I could then start to integrate into my practice without really knowing if it's going to make a difference. But in loads of ways we've become one of the most improved practices in the country, according to the patient satisfaction survey and our staff satisfaction as well, and so I really enjoyed that and that's still very important to me.
Speaker 2:But then I also started thinking about how do we make the NHS the best it can be beyond my practice, and I wanted to get involved in that. I had a spell at the CCG, then the ICB, and that was like being a part of the top-down. You know change because that's one important way that we make change happen is how do we design the work that people are doing, how do we create the structures that support people to do their best work, and that is an interest of mine. I still love to get involved in conversations and support when there's some kind of plan being formed. If I can be a part of that, then I really want to be, so I'm going along to a webinar later about the interface, which is a national conversation, but again, I'm just going as a GP. But then I've also recognized that change happens not just top down but bottom up through the people doing the work connecting with each other, sharing ideas, sharing thoughts, unearthing great ideas and finding a way to share them, and so that is what I've been doing more over the last two years. So half of my week is filled up with that, and so that means spending a lot of time on social media. So I'm listening to what's going on, I'm asking provocative questions, I'm visiting people doing great work and I'm sharing it. I try to be very transparent when we're doing things at our practice or our PCN or things I'm involved in I think could be helpful to people. I have a discipline of trying to share that to hopefully to encourage, inspire part of sharing ideas, and I'm really interested in leadership training. So I really think that a really important aspect of the NHS going forward is finding the people You've got the leadership qualities for the future you don't always see themselves as leaders and then supporting them to grow in their leadership journey, and that's something I've done, that at my PCN.
Speaker 2:There's various things I could talk about. I spend time connecting with people in the system all over. So I've spent time at the emergency department on post-state ward rounds in the system all over the world, have spent time at the emergency department on post-state ward rounds in the hospital. I've spent time at the ambulance service and just yesterday we connected with the people who've got the contracts for looking after the care homes in our area so we invited them in. They call it the old interface thing. I'm interested in how can we bring in ideas from outside the NHS? So we've recruited from outside the NHS quite intentionally. But I'm also very interested in how do we bring the best of what's happening in other countries in other industries into the NHS. So that's often reading, visiting, sharing and working at how we can best do that. So that's a kind of a broad view of what I've been up to so not a shortage of ideas there then there isn't a shortage of ideas.
Speaker 2:The question is do we know what they are and do we have mechanisms of finding what they are and sharing them? There was a one of my favorite places I've ever visited was a maiden, which is an IT company that does electronic records for mental health, and they are just incredible. They've written a book called made without managers, and it's really challenging and it's absolutely brilliant. But I find it just so hard to work out how we can take what they've done and put it into a kind of a general practice context, because the work they're doing and the pace of the work they're doing is very different. But it's often about how do we pull those things in and integrate them into the services that we have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I could imagine pace is an issue. The NHS seems to move quite slowly. So where you're seeing all these great ideas and visiting things and wanting to implement quite quickly, do you find that it's difficult to do that within a system that is so big that it potentially moves quite slowly?
Speaker 2:Not in general practice, because I'm a partner. This is one of the beauties of the GP partnership, which I understand has its problems. But also the real advantage is that if we find a tech company that we think is going to make a difference to general practice and our surgery and our patients, we just buy it and start using it, and we have done, and so we can find an idea and implement it tomorrow. So that does create the potential to change quite rapidly, actually. Yeah, so I've not found that, but I think within the bigger systems I think it can be, and again, that's one of my big interests kind of moving forward around what next for me. I do want to be a part of a bigger organisation so I can take the stuff I'm interested in around leadership improvement from the context I'm in now and see if I can do that in a different context that's maybe more bureaucratic, more governance and how do we make change happen in that context.
Speaker 1:In effect, doing it in a GP practice is one good GP practice. So how are people seeing and learning and adopting what you're doing?
Speaker 2:that's a great question and I guess that's part of my. What I've been doing over the last few years is really trying to increase the flow of ideas between practices. So that's often going to be on things like social media, and I meet someone at a conference who says, oh, that post that you put on a year ago really inspired me and I've done this so often. You don't get to know what changes get made.
Speaker 1:How do you get people to develop and adopt?
Speaker 2:what you're doing. Something that I find encourages me around unwarranted variation is that the innovation curve, where you've got the innovators and the early adopters and that kind of thing and you could that's probably always going to be the case that curve is existent. So in that sense, you might always see that there is an unwarranted variation, and so I guess I'm wanting to be an innovator, but I'm also wanting to put a bit of challenge in and ideas such that the things that I find that either I'm doing or that I find other people doing can start to become something that becomes a bit more normal, that becomes possible for those early adopters. We've worked out how to do it. We've shown some pictures of what it looks like, we've solved some of those initial challenges, and so people who are up for change but maybe just find things a bit more difficult, we've created a path for them to be able to follow, and so I guess that's been my mechanism thinking about how things could improve.
Speaker 1:There's always got to be someone that goes first. My next question is really thinking about some of the challenges around being in general practice versus the wider NHS, to trying to make hospitals, like the focus of care and for what we would perhaps call community-based care or integrated care is being remodeled and shifted in different ways. What are your thoughts? Do you think that's happening, or is that just my imagination?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's definitely happening, but I wouldn't have described it as some kind of recent change. I think that's been going on for a very long time and it's a problem the world over, but even more so in the uk. I think we've got some of the lowest primary care spending compared to secondary care spending in europe and there's lots of reasons why that is. It certainly seems the intention around and having a neighborhood health care is trying to put that kind of more local space into the driving seat. So I think the intention is that we'll have GP practices working in their primary care networks and trying to connect with all the people who are delivering services in that area to create a local service for people in that area, which secondary care will obviously be really important for them to be a part of.
Speaker 2:And I think the big question for primary care is are we able to come together with one voice enough to be able to take on the challenge of delivering something which is being pushed at a national level? Which hospitals are very well configured to take on the work? They've got excellent organisational development, leadership skills and so they can do things big at scale, whereas we're lots of very small practices working together in smallish clinic primary care networks. Can we take the challenge that people want to give us? Because in many ways we are better placed in terms of we're closer to people and I think the generalist skills and working with the local community is where I think we get better care overall and more economical care. But the question is can we organise ourselves? And that's the challenge which is being asked of us at the moment.
Speaker 1:Do you think you can organise yourselves?
Speaker 2:I don't know. We've got to see how it plays out and how the government, nhs England or the Department of Health shape what this looks like and how the approach primary care is going to make a difference to whether or not we succeed. It's going to be some degree of having worked.
Speaker 1:Hopefully. We always seem to be tinkering and messing around with the NHS and putting in new structures. You have CCGs, icvs, social prescribing, integrated neighbourhood teams. They're all phrases that are thrown in there around how we want this idea of integrated or community or neighborhood level care. And does anything really change, even though we describe it differently with all those different phrases, or are we still trying to achieve the same thing? Because to me it just seems like we create a new structure but we're still trying to achieve the same thing, which we're still trying to get that community integrated care in some shape or form, and we call it one thing. One year, then we change it and call it something slightly different, and yet it's still trying to be the same thing from the outside, obviously, for someone that isn't in the NHS, that's how I would perceive it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, I go back to probably what I said earlier and I think it's hard for me to judge. I can see how, what the CCGs were doing and then what the ICB's done, and then I can see these integrated neighbourhood teams coming through. I don't think the names matter. I think the way they're configured affects the way that power moves and the way that finance moves and who gets to have a say in things. But the kind of the deep repercussions of that, I think, are that I haven't had enough personal experience, because these things often take years to play out.
Speaker 2:But I can see the logic of wanting to work locally and wanting to get services who are ultimately trying to serve the same people but are disconnected, working together to think okay, how do we as a group of people with different skills and different services and different payment structures, how do we manage to meet the needs of the people locally?
Speaker 2:I think the local thing is really important, partly because of relationships In a local area. You've got an opportunity to get to know people in your local service and get to know patients well inside out in terms of their lives, and that can make a really big difference and I think that there is a strong case being made for that and we generally carry on doing things the same way unless we can have a mindset shift through being challenged or, I guess, through the structures and finances and incentives being slightly reconfigured and different people will be persuaded by different things. I think for me, the former of thinking yeah, I can really see how connecting with people doing work locally could make a difference to our patients, and so I've made a start with trying to do some of that.
Speaker 1:One of the things that comes up for me, because most of my work is in impact and trying to prove that a service is having a positive impact on a person's life, particularly with the health and well-being services is this conflict between preventative and after the event acute services, and do you see that as a GP practice, that your role is shifting or could shift more to preventative work, or is it always going to be largely? I've got this issue and I'm coming in today to sort it out or whenever I can get an urgent appointment, because the demand for that acute service is just not going away. But ultimately, if we want to have a longer term impact on people's health, we do need to make that shift to more preventative stuff. Is that something that you think that GP practices should be doing?
Speaker 2:That's all massively within our gift because we've got the skills to support people with prevention, although I think that probably a lot of the social sector and community voluntary sector have got even more. But that is something that we can do and we can also manage acute things and there's an element of choice about how much we prioritize each within our service. I guess the problem is, every day our community contact us for acute care. They don't contact us very often for preventive care. We've got the skills to do it. Yet if all our resources are completely flooded by people saying I need your help because I'm ill or I'm unwell or I'm concerned about this symptom or what might be going on, then that kind of takes all our attention, all our resource, with very little left to do the preventive. So partly it's about having enough resource to be able to do both and it's also about I think there's a real kind of leadership discipline of prioritising what is most important, particularly things that make a long-term impact.
Speaker 2:The way that's tended to play out for me has been around building the team. So it's not quite preventive, but it's still that long-term thinking of every day. We might be like struggling to meet demand, yet I know that if we do really good recruitment and if we build the team and if we develop psychological safety, if we engage with the staff and the patients, then our service becomes much more strong and much more able to deal with the acute care better and actually that creates more time to develop the team and then potentially be able to do preventive work. But it requires real discipline when you've got a lot of people pulling on you saying we want you for this, to give them less of a service so that you can then do the things that are going to make the long-term impact. So it's a balance of both having the resource to do it but also the mindset and prioritising it.
Speaker 1:When I talk about long-term impact, it's potentially something where you won't see the results for 10, 15 years or two, three generations. The commitment to make that decision now, when you won't necessarily be around to see the results of it, is quite a tough one for most people, because we as a society we want to see instant results or near instant results from things. How do you justify that and get by into those types of conversations?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think it's not so much about making the case as deciding together. So I've had it, where I've had meetings with patients, both online and in person, and basically explained this is how we're funded as a surgery. These are the choices that we make. What do you think we should do? And people do think that we should be putting effort and resources into prevention, even in the face of it slimming down the acute provision. People think that makes sense, and so when you make that decision together, it makes it a whole lot easier when we do. Let me just give you there's just an example from today actually.
Speaker 2:So we've got a Facebook group. So this is one of the things around. Prevention is it can be done. Even the acute management can to some extent, but certainly prevention can be done in different ways than one-to-one consultations. A one-to-one consultation with a doctor is a very high resource way of getting anything done, so we should only be doing that, I think, when it's the only way of achieving a particular goal.
Speaker 2:We use Facebook quite a lot and I can push out messages on there around recognising worrying symptoms or how to manage particular problems, and I have a thousand people on there who get to see it all the time.
Speaker 2:Yet today I put on a message basically saying is there anyone who's had developed health problems that they wish they'd done something differently about in the past?
Speaker 2:So what would you say to people who are further down the line and encouraging a conversation where people start to talk about that and effectively, then patients are then supporting each other and challenging each other and serving a doctor telling them they've got someone who lives around the corner putting things on about I really wish that I'd stop smoking or I really wish that I'd lost weight, and even quite emotional stories where people might have lost loved ones because of choices that they made.
Speaker 2:So that's a form of prevention. I actually got a chat GBT to help formulate the way of writing that and I improved it a bit Then. The bit that I then also have to do is just keep a little eye on it and then when people post, I want to support people or ask them further questions, and that then creates this thread, hopefully that our practice population can read and follow and be challenged and learn all at the same time. I think that's a very cost-effective way of a doctor being able to support a practice population to think about those things in a different way than a one-to-one consultation, which of course still has a role, and I'll still be doing that.
Speaker 1:And I can see that, like you say, it's very cost-effective. But there's only you doing that. I don't know anyone else that's massively using Facebook to do that kind of stuff as a doctor.
Speaker 2:True. Is this a version of me being an innovator? I have the discipline of screenshotting what we're doing I share on social media. I've written 20 top tips for having a GP Facebook page. So I've got a Medium blog where I put all my kind of ideas and tips and things. So I'm hopefully trying something new, but also trying to share it, and I'm not the only one doing it.
Speaker 2:I think forums are a massive part of the future. Really, do there was one so we foster babies. Actually that's one of the other little things I didn't mention earlier. And we've got we had a boy who had a cleft lip and he was having surgery in nottingham and they've got a facebook for the mums who parents of people who've going through that surgery that the nurse is also on. So you have people posting problems and challenges that they're facing. Other parents who've had those same problems will chip in. The nurse will sometimes chip in and then sometimes the nurse will say, actually I'll give me a call today, absolutely incredible. And then you've got this. It's asynchronous so people can be writing at any time of the day. It sits there, these threads that are searchable later on. You've got one nurse and some parents and imagine the resources required to manage those needs purely as one-to-one professionals, which is what most of us are doing so I think there's huge potential in using forums so we've got the model wrong, where we want to do everything individually yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:Not wrong, but I think that's an addition that could run. Imagine all these people on waiting lists for knee operations. Imagine they were on a Facebook group together sharing some of their tips and challenges and things that have made a difference to them Clinicians being able to chip in and support. These things are a big challenge to administer, but I find that when some kind of faceless service becomes a human being and you explain to them the challenges that the organization's facing transparently, but also really try and support people in the best way that you can, people see that and they understand it and they can accept it more. But also that then creates this space of being able to share and improve. Whilst people are waiting for that kind of what is normally the expected thing to happen the treatment.
Speaker 1:Definitely. One question I have that you talked about earlier was about leadership and developing leaders, and I think my personal experience of the NHS is that people are very much restricted in their ability to make decisions. To make decisions, I'm guessing it's the opposite for you in your practice, in that you allow people to make decisions and do what I call the next right thing, as opposed to stopping at that point, because this is the brick wall where my role ends and I now hand over to someone else. When you talk about leadership and developing leaders and building that expertise, what does that really look like?
Speaker 2:I sense that when I joined the practice, there was a sense that I think people were doing what they'd always been done and maybe weren't necessarily questioning the work and how it was being done. So partly there's a leading by example of questioning what we're doing and is it really the best. So partly there's a leading by example of questioning what we're doing, and is it really the best way to doing it, to trying to create kind of permission for people to try and even to fail, and how you manage when things go wrong is really important, the kind of messages that people get through that. I think that one of the changes that we made was around thinking about reception in particular. I think they've moved from following rules to following principles and I think if you then create and we've tried to create a sense of values and purpose at the practice, but the idea is more that if people can understand the bigger context of what we're trying to achieve and then we're really calling people to then support as a team, how do we make this happen together? And that's very different to just. You told me to do this, so I'm doing it exactly as you told me to do. I've even had it where I would encourage receptionists to challenge me if they think that I've made a suggestion to a patient that they actually feel concerned about. I want them to challenge me back on it. I think that there's still the big element of safety around kind of working out professional boundaries around non-clinical people. I think that's really important, but at the same time, I think that everybody has got the same potential to be able to reimagine the practice, reimagine their work and be creative, and so it's trying to really release that.
Speaker 2:I would say that recruitment's been really key, though. I think if you want to have an organization that has got a learning culture, that's got curiosity, that's willing to try things, then you need to seek out people who work in that way, and it's also about the kind of leadership that you have. So I touched on this earlier In the past. I wonder whether or not our organizations have been like almost like factories, where you've got someone in charge and everyone else is basically doing what they're told. You've got this one person at the top. He sees the big picture, tells everyone what to do, and then they go on and do it, and the kind of leader you might need in that organisation is charismatic, certain clinically senior and that's what people think of as leaders, whereas I think now that, because the world and our work is so fast-paced and complex, we need to be having structures and leaders who bring out the best in people, who enable people to bring all their qualities to the work that they're doing.
Speaker 2:And so then you need leaders who are really good at listening and really good at empathizing, and who people want to follow, who are interested in people, who bring out the best in people, and people like that don't necessarily think of themselves as leaders, and so it's a case of finding those people and calling that out in them and then coaching and supporting them to have the confidence to take leadership roles.
Speaker 2:And that's when the autonomy starts to work, because you can't just give everyone autonomy, because some people will use it in a not very helpful way. So it's a case of finding the people who have got the personal qualities and character that, when you give them autonomy, brilliant things happen. And that's totally happened in our reception and nursing team is that we've had people who are exceptional characters, who wouldn't have put themselves forward, and you just basically say, look, this is what we want from our reception, this is what we want from the nursing team. This is where you fit in a pitch of our organization. Just do what you want and let us know what you need, and that has just been absolutely transformational and very low effort, once you've got the right people it sounds like a dream gp practice.
Speaker 1:I'm meeting up to chef ears no, it's not.
Speaker 2:It isn't we like so many surgeries. It is so fast paced. We're always having to take shortcuts, we're always having to not give some people the best care so we can focus on other people. Day to day it can look pretty chaotic and I wonder whether, compared to some organizations the private organizations it will seem messy. But yeah, I don't want to paint some picture of having solved the problem of general practice. I think that we've come a very long way in optimizing it, making it as best we can. There's still a huge amount of things that we could be doing differently, but I think it's about getting that kind of core culture, culture and that once you create a self-improving culture, then a lot of the quality things that everybody wants out of general practice in terms of the number of appointments or the patient satisfaction or continuity of care they emerge from that. I think we're fairly strong on that. But maybe I make it sound idyllic, but it really isn't. It's brutal on some days. It really is.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. I think that's perhaps more good than bad. It really isn't. It's brutal on some days. It really is fair enough. I think that's perhaps more good than bad when you look at it overall, and whilst in the moment you think it's horrendous, it's actually still pretty good compared to a lot of gp practices. So, ben, thank you so much for joining me today. Is there any final comments or thoughts that you want to share before we finish?
Speaker 2:So people find me quite hopeful and I'll just share briefly where that comes from. And it's about releasing potential. I think lots of people can think, oh, we could do more if we had more money and more people, and that is true. But if also, if you take a look at your organization and think, to what extent are the people in the organization reaching their potential and to what extent is this organization reaching its potential, and everyone can see that people are not working to their full potential and there are things in their organization that are not working as well as they could, and all that is the opportunity that's in front of us and it's really challenging to do the work that helps release that potential.
Speaker 2:When you're you feel like you're drowning. It can be really hard to shift the work that helps release that potential. When you're you feel like you're drowning, it can be really hard to shift those resources into releasing potential. But when you do, that's where the potential is and that then becomes this kind of continuous cycle of creating a little bit more breathing space and then you've got a little bit more time to improve. So think about where the potential is and, yeah, even get on social media and start asking the question of has anyone else solved this problem?
Speaker 1:brilliant. I think that's a very fitting end if people want to get in touch with you. What's the best way to contact you if they want to follow your innovations or read your questions that you throw out on social media to make people think?
Speaker 2:so I've got a website benallengpnet, I think it is, but I'm on linkedin as ben allen. I'm also on benallengpnet, I think it is, but I'm on LinkedIn as Ben Allen. I'm also on Twitter, benallengp.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I've got a Medium account which is where all my blogs are. So if you find me on one of those, that hopefully would unlock all those other spaces there and then you just follow whichever part if it works for you.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really lovely talking to you, Ben. Yeah, likewise Thanks for having me on. Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Make an Impact podcast. I hope you found today's conversation as inspiring and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who want to create positive change. You can connect with me on LinkedIn and learn more about my work at makeanimpactciccouk. Until next time, let's keep making an impact in the world.