Get ready to dive into the inspiring journey of James Brennan, CEO of Linius (ASX:LNU). Known for his analytical prowess and process-driven approach, James has led software and SaaS product development for both established corporations and startups, consistently achieving success. His extensive background in product management, sales, marketing and finance showcases his ability to grow businesses, uncover latent potential, and foster exceptional teams and cultures.
Currently serving as the CEO of Linius Technologies, James is at the forefront of unlocking the value of global video content. Linius introduces a groundbreaking way to personalize and curate video experiences, empowering users to create personalized compilations seamlessly. Under James' leadership, Linius has achieved unprecedented financial milestones, secured major partnerships, and launched scalable SaaS offerings.
James' influence goes beyond Linius, having led transformative growth phases at Integrated Research, Kaltura, BlueJeans Network and Polycom. Notably, he has orchestrated the launch of innovative SaaS solutions, expanded into new markets, and turned stagnating ventures into thriving market leaders. With a global perspective spanning Asia, North America and Europe, James is a master of SaaS business transformation, harnessing data-driven insights to reshape products, pricing, revenue models, and sales strategies.
Join us for this episode as we delve into James' remarkable career journey and gain valuable insights from his strategic expertise that continues to shape the technology landscape.
Get ready to dive into the inspiring journey of James Brennan, CEO of Linius (ASX:LNU). Known for his analytical prowess and process-driven approach, James has led software and SaaS product development for both established corporations and startups, consistently achieving success. His extensive background in product management, sales, marketing and finance showcases his ability to grow businesses, uncover latent potential, and foster exceptional teams and cultures.
Currently serving as the CEO of Linius Technologies, James is at the forefront of unlocking the value of global video content. Linius introduces a groundbreaking way to personalize and curate video experiences, empowering users to create personalized compilations seamlessly. Under James' leadership, Linius has achieved unprecedented financial milestones, secured major partnerships, and launched scalable SaaS offerings.
James' influence goes beyond Linius, having led transformative growth phases at Integrated Research, Kaltura, BlueJeans Network and Polycom. Notably, he has orchestrated the launch of innovative SaaS solutions, expanded into new markets, and turned stagnating ventures into thriving market leaders. With a global perspective spanning Asia, North America and Europe, James is a master of SaaS business transformation, harnessing data-driven insights to reshape products, pricing, revenue models, and sales strategies.
Join us for this episode as we delve into James' remarkable career journey and gain valuable insights from his strategic expertise that continues to shape the technology landscape.
Hello, and welcome to season two of the books of the boardroom podcast. This is a podcast where we talked to and professionals, such as CEOs and CFOs about the journey they went on to become the leaders they are today. We will discuss the challenges they faced, the people that had experience that shaped their growth and what it takes to become a true leader. My name is I'm the managing director of biscuit and I'll be your co-host. This podcast is proudly brought to you by Briscoe. Prisca helps medium to large Australian companies comfortably meet their financial obligations in a cost-effective manner by providing them with the pulley chain outsourced finance staff. Thanks for listening. I am blessed to have conversations with various professionals with one thing in common, that is leadership. Today I'm speaking to James Brennan. CEO of Linus, and Ace Existed company headquartered in Melbourne. James, thanks for making time to come on our podcast and how are you today? My pleasure, Sumit. Thank you for the invitation. I'm, I'm doing fantastic, really looking forward to our conversation. That's great to hear. James, I'll get you to introduce Lineus to our listeners and explain what made you to join the company a couple of years ago, I guess. Sure, happy to do so. Lineus is an ASX listed technology company. We have a cloud based platform that allows us to work with video in a unique way. Our mission is to help our customers to unlock the value of their video archives. So many customers in sports and media and education have massive archives of highly valuable video, but it's really difficult to find and to utilize the specific moments of high value within those archives. So we've got a platform that allows us to deeply search within those archives for individual users to pick out and get access to the things that they want and to create their own personalized streams. So we're currently very much focused in the sports arena, and we help our sports customers to provide unique, personalized fan experiences for their fans. So as a fan, I can follow my favorite teams and favorite players, and every week get my own personalized highlight stream of my favorite players and actions. And we can do that on the fly for millions of simultaneous users. And everyone gets their own personalized video stream. And at the end of the day, that helps our customers to expose the value in their, their archives. They spend a ton of money creating these productions and, um, uh, building the teams and some of our customers spend billions of dollars buying the rights for this video content. And we help them extract every, every bit of value out of those. Right. Wow. That sounds, uh, is it like a very unique? Product for the Australian market or to the world, where does this fit? So we are a global company. We have customers all over the world. Uh, we have customers in Australia. Uh, we have customers in Europe and hopefully about to be announcing some of our first customers in the U S and, um, you know, we do have a unique capability in that, um, you know, we. Are able to provide that deep level of personalization. There's a lot of solutions on the market today that are using different AI and machine learning technologies to generate highlights. Uh, but most things are generating the same highlights for everybody. They, they generate a very rapid highlight clip, uh, that then gets sent to everybody. And everybody sees the same thing with our solution. We allow the fans to find exactly what they want to see, follow their exact favorite players and the specific actions that they want to see. So everyone gets a personalized, tailored experience. We're becoming much more accustomed to that in every facet of our lives. You know, all the apps and news apps and, and, you know, financial apps, whatever it is, they're very tailored to exactly what you want. But with video, we're all still watching the same things. Um, you know, so, uh, we've got the, we believe the first technology that allows fans to, to truly personalize their video streams. That's great. And uh, yeah, you're, you're very, very, I completely agree to what you say, like, you know, the video is sometimes to find what you want to watch or it's probably a, lot of scrolling and, uh, Scroll through so much junk to get to the things you actually want to see. By the time you get to that, you're already tired and you don't feel like even, you know, enjoying it. Right, right. So, you know, the ultimate experience for us is, you know, imagine going in, you've got five minutes, you want to spend time, you want kind of that Instagram or TikTok style experience, but instead of having to flick through 20 things to get what you want, you instantly are getting the things that you're interested in, your favorite players and teams, and you're just getting a stream, uh, you know, Sunday afternoon, I've got 30 minutes, And I want to get my own personalized sports center highlight package. Um, so instead of, uh, you know, wading through and watching golf, which I hate, I can get straight to the AFL or to the NRL or whatever it is. I get right into the things that I want to see. Right. No, that gives the people the power to do what they want to do. Without getting that interruption or the disruption from the other things around and giving, getting, getting away from your real focus or real interest. Exactly. And then the, look, the, the core technology has applications in education. So imagine as you know, students being able to go in and find exactly what they need to study for in an upcoming exam. Uh, there's applications in security and defense. So, you know, looking at CCTV camera footage and, uh, following a person of interest as they travel through, um, the airport, for example, you know, they got off this plane, they went here, they. Went into the bathroom, they came out, they went through customs, you know, and we can literally track and, and stream that, um, you know, if, if there's something that's going on that someone needs to review, uh, you know, that could be coming from multiple different video sources and video files and, and, so there's, Immense number of applications for the technology, uh, but as a small company, we, we learned our lesson. We learned kind of the hard way that you can't do everything. Uh, so, you know, those are, those are lessons that you go through. You have to market test and try a bunch of things, uh, but at some point you really need to focus. And, uh, yeah, we, we, we did learn that lesson. Yeah. Yeah. You'll finish it out at some point, of course. So we start like, you know, broader and then you narrow it down because that's where the world is right now. And hopefully we get back to the point where we can then expand out to all of those other markets. Uh, but it's really about proving, proving success in one first do something really well and then, and then expand. I want to hear more about your CEO's journey, but before that, I would like to explore your founder's journey. I can see that you have founded Primora Group, is that how you call it? Yeah. So Primora Group is, um, kind of my, my consulting company. And I've worked with a number of, uh, different companies in Australia and, um, the U S and, and trying to help companies kind of. Enter and grow into the Australian market. Uh, and I, look, I started doing that because I came to realize that through my career, that's essentially what I was doing and, um, you know, that I was getting asked by other companies. Um, some of them were friends or friends of friends who wanted some expertise. And I, you know, just found that that was a. A need that, that companies didn't really know how to expand. It could have been, you know, I've had a few customers that were small companies trying to, uh, figure out how to grow and others that were, uh, successful companies in other markets wanting to open or expand into the Australian market. Um, so. Yeah, that's, uh, it's an ongoing business that I have. I'm not doing, uh, currently don't have any clients in that business, but it's something that from time to time I, um, you know, pick back up if there's something interesting that I, that I choose to work on. So I've, I've had different, different customers of different sizes and it's, uh, you know, it's an ongoing business that when something interesting comes my way and I want to help out, uh, with those customers, um, it's, it's a vehicle that I have to be able to do that. Uh, I don't. I don't have any customers at the moment. My, my role with Linneus, uh, as the CEO is more than a full time job. Uh, so I, you know, I've got my head, head down and focused on that role. Um, but yeah, I founded Primora, uh, primarily because I saw a market need. And it's kind of an expertise that I had and I, I had companies. Coming to me and asking for help, uh, so I said, you know, it's, it's worth building a small, small business around this. It's never been my primary income, but it's always been, uh, kind of, kind of an extra, uh, thing that I do because I, I love it, you know, love helping small companies enter the, enter new markets. It is a really good service to be honest with you, like, uh, we are expanding to the U. S. market soon, uh, for our business as well. If we can find someone who offers what you offer in Australia in the U. S. market. It would be really easy. So the expansion is going to be much more easier and more streamlined than trying to navigate through the, all the hiccups and you know, the, the challenges. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so yeah, I've, I've, I've just found that to be a, uh, uh, kind of a fun extension of, of what I've done, uh, through, throughout my career, uh, I've done that for other companies and, and now, you know, It's kind of help help smaller companies try to, um, come, come here into the Australian market. Yeah. Okay. And I saw something very interesting in my notes. Uh, You have made a few career choices and finally set it down to the CEO role at a technology business as a Finance professional. I like to know more about why you didn't go through the CFO route. Your father went. That's very interesting to hear. Yeah. So look, your career journey takes you through a number of different paths and I think it's it's important to be open to change, uh, you know, you you go down one path with the intention of of going in one direction, but you know, you you get exposed and experience different things that You either learn that you love or you learn that you don't love so My, my desire to, to kind of get into finance. So I've got a, uh, my bachelor's degree is in finance and my dad was a CFO. So I grew up kind of always knowing that he was a CFO and I took business classes in high school. And, um, interestingly, I, I saw the movie wall street. I, you know, I was a teenager and I loved that movie and I saw the, uh, the glitz and glamour, if you will, of, of working on Wall Street. So I, I got my degree in finance and wanted to move in that direction, uh, started my career in finance and did that for a number of years. I had a successful career, not on Wall Street. I never actually did the Wall Street route, but I went into corporate finance and worked for General Motors and got an amazing education through the finance program at General Motors. And I found that finance was an amazing Baseline and foundation for a career in business because you truly learn how to value a business, how to analyze decisions, um, you know, and how to, how to assess the health of your business. So. I did that for, I don't know, five, six, seven years and really enjoyed it, but came to the conclusion that I didn't want to work in spreadsheets and sit in the cubicle and crunch numbers for, for, you know, the next 30 years. And... I decided to go get an MBA and again, General Motors was fantastic to work for. As I was getting my MBA, they gave me a chance to take on some additional management and strategic roles and, uh, supporting, um, a division general manager that I was working for at the time. Uh, so they gave me tons of opportunity to try and learn new things. Um, Gave me some leadership opportunities that kind of 25 year old that, uh, I was, I was surprised I was given, but I learned a ton and, you know, made my way more into general management. Um, I, I moved into product and marketing and then eventually into sales. So, you know, we can kind of talk through that, that whole journey, but my, my career has kind of changed every, I'd say every seven to 10 years, I I've kind of made kind of significant. Uh, sidesteps, you know, move, move through one path, get to a certain level and then go, you know what, uh, let's try something else. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And when you were at General Motors, you were heading a manufacturing division at some point. Yeah. So while I'm getting my MBA and I've, I've basically been an accountant for, um, you know, seven years at General Motors. Uh, I. kind of analyzed and set up the books for a new business that they were creating. And they, they gave me the opportunity at 25 years old to be, um, a business unit manager for this, this 15 million business unit. With, uh, the manufacturing printed circuit boards. And so I know nothing about, uh, chemical engineering or manufacturing process. Uh, but I had a great team and, you know, they, they put me in charge to develop the strategy for that team and, you know, managing a division that had. Kind of 150 manufacturing line workers in, in California and even in Mexico and setting the strategy and, and all of that for that division. So it was a really exciting opportunity. And I kind of learned that if you believe you can do it, you probably can. And, you know, if you're, if someone believes in you to give you an opportunity, put your hand up and take that opportunity. Ask for help, find the right people around you, uh, rely on the, the, the right people. That's probably a critical thing. Um, you know, you can't do everything yourself, but if you've got the right people around you, trust yourself, trust your judgment and just go for it. You know, it's either going to go well or it's not, uh, you've got nothing to lose. So what was hard, like, you know, one thing is when you are, when you are young and having that kind of a title on you to perform. So one of the biggest thing I, but I've experienced in my own career is the ego, your own ego. Hmm. Versus, uh, but this is really required at that point in time. And did you find that's a problem if, you know, managing your ego and, uh, at the same time, you know, to work with a bunch of people, some of them are older to you and seeing it to you as well. Hmm. And managing those dynamics. How did you find that journey? Uh, yeah, look, that was really challenging. Like I never. I never kind of thought of myself as, you know, like a whiz kid or something like that. I kind of felt like a bit of an imposter to be frank and, but you, you just kind of have to have the confidence that you were given this opportunity for a reason. You need to go in and take it humbly. Um, so that was the big thing for me, as I said, I had no background in engineering or manufacturing. So you have to go in and just ask a lot of questions, just be humble and be open and listen and You have to be analytical. You have to truly be curious and try to learn and understand, you know, you've been put in that position probably for a reason. It was probably good that I had no background in that because I had no biases. I had no, Anything. So my job was literally just to learn so I couldn't go in there and think that I knew everything. Um, you know, the, these 30 and 40 year old, uh, manufacturing supervisors who'd been doing their job for 20 years. If I went in and tried to tell them what to do, I would have been. Toast. I would have been killed. Uh, so I, you know, I had to go in and had to be curious and listen and understand and listen to the things that they thought were important. What's, what do they think is right and wrong? And then at some point, yes, you have to make decisions and that's probably the, that's the hardest turning point. So the first thing is you've got to go in and you've got to be humble, but then at some point you have to go, you know what? I know what needs to be done now. I've come in and I've learned enough. And then you have to say. Okay, now this is the change we need to make or this is what we need to do. Um, and if you, if you go into it with confidence and, and don't waffle, you know, you've gotta go in and say, this is it. Um, I mean, that was the approach that I took. Um, who knows if that's the secret to success, but that, that's kind of how I went about it. Went in very humble and, and then made up my mind and then, and then started to enact and, and execute. I love that approach. Actually, uh, you know, recently one of our staff member left the head of their family business and that's the advice I gave him as well. Don't try to go and change everything overnight. Just learn how things are and, you know, the things they have done for a reason, you know, time evolved to a level and you don't know the real reason behind why it is there or the existence of what is there. Right. You study for, you know, six to 12 months, uh, before you make any changes, any significant changes. Right. Yeah. So learn it first and then of course execute after. Yeah. And the, the timeframes of how long you should or could do that are going to be different in every situation. And you know, if fast forward, you know, to my most recent opportunity with Linneus, um, It's a very dynamic environment and very critical to make decisions more quickly. Um, and you know, even, even in the 18 months that I've been here, I look back and I, you know, I think, damn, I should have made that decision a little more quickly. I should have had the forethought or the foresight to, to do this or that. Uh, so I do think. You know, in today's business environment and in technology, in particular, you kind of have to trust your instinct and your gut a little bit more and just get on with it and make decisions and adapt as you go. Um, overanalyzing things is, is probably the worst thing that you can do. Yeah, no, it's so true. And it's funny you mentioned that, like, it's always a frustration of the entrepreneurs or anyone at that level. You always feel that you should have done it before, like not now, I think we have that guilty feeling throughout. Yeah. I don't think anybody ever looks back and gone, Oh, I should have, should have been slower. I should have slowed down, you know, shouldn't have done that. Um, yeah. So it, it feels at the time that you're moving a million miles an hour and then you've got to analyze things. Um, but six months from now you'll look back on and go, yeah, I should have just. I knew that all along. I should have just done it. Yeah, that's so true. That's exactly right. And you mentioned another interesting point about the transition from a large public company to a small business. Can you take us through your transition journey from, you know, GM to, I mean, General Motors to Lineas? I'm sure it is a paradigm shift kind of a transition. So how did you manage that? Massive difference from where I am now and where I started my career. Uh, and interestingly, I didn't plan it this way, but every company that I've worked for has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. Um, so I started at General Motors. One of the biggest companies, uh, globally, um, and then worked for a smaller division of General Motors. Uh, after I got my MBA, I moved, uh, to my first startup. So my first startup was right after I finished my MBA. I moved to a telecommunications company, maybe about a hundred, 120 employees, really exciting, fun kind of, uh, culture and, and really kind of caught the Bug for that kind of environment really enjoyed that role. Um, and I did that. As an independent company there for about three or four years, but that company was then acquired by Polycom, um, one of the big telecommunications providers. Uh, so then moved into a company of two or 3000 employees and continued my career through that, uh, for another 10, 10, 15 years or so. Uh, and look, really enjoyed that kind of a midsize company has some of the pros and cons of both. Um, and then following that, I moved to smaller companies, kind of mid tier, a few hundred employee, uh, U. S. based tech companies. And, uh, Linneus was my first company really at this kind of a scale, true, true startup. Um, you know, 20 ish employees and stepping into the role of really running everything, every element of it, uh, from product to sales, to technology, to finance and capital funding. And, um, you know, so that's been a big change for me is, you know, Owning all of that and having to have that complete end to end picture, uh, is a big change for me, but I think I've kind of worked my way through all of the elements that it would take to be successful with that, uh, and, and really I, I have developed my career with a bit of a plan, uh, but a bit of, um, uh, serendipity as well, you know, kind of taking opportunities as they came, uh, but I, I had the, the, the view that that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a CEO and I specifically built up the skills and kept capacity that I needed to be successful in this role. Yeah, that's great. I, I also experienced the same thing in my career as well, you know, being an accountant in bigger corporates or companies before, so you have a. You know, you can play, you play within your boundaries, so it's very safe and you know exactly what to do. And then, uh, there's a starting point and end point is very clear for clearing that, uh, in that kind of role. But whereas when I started my own business, so it was really broad and, uh, it took a while for you to understand. The grounding up of business is so harder than just managing. Process or in a function in a company in a bigger company. Yeah, I can really understand the journey that you have been through and It's it's it's you know, some people don't even get there and they get out and at some point because it's too hard Especially the people from the accounting background where they are supposed to go into more sales and marketing type of functionalities where your personality doesn't match with it, you know, right? It's going to be hard on them. And then they always choose to go back to where they were and they, you know, settle down again with the finance area. So did you feel that kind of thing as well? Or you didn't feel that at all? Um, yeah, that it's really interesting. So again, I made the conscious decision to get out of finance, not that I disliked it, but that I just wanted to do more than that for the remainder of my career. Uh, and then I happened into product management and marketing a bit by luck. Uh, so, uh, you know, I did get my MBA, uh, in kind of general management and marketing. And I hadn't really thought about product management. I didn't really know what product management was until I kind of got my MBA and started to look at new roles. And this was kind of in the. com era and looked at, you know, the function of product management and said, you know what, that's, that actually is what I'm interested in. Uh, so I, I got the opportunity to move into that in this small startup company, uh, got more into, um, product and marketing and. I think one of the, the things that I found was always looking for new challenges. So I started out being assigned kind of a small product, uh, then saw challenges with other products and put my hand up to take those on. So I, I kind of became the guy that always took on the problem child. Um, you know, if there was a product that was broken or, uh, it wasn't, uh, delivering or just wasn't, Wasn't hitting its targets or whatever. They'd be like, something's gotta change here. And I'd be just like, I'll take it. And so I ended up taking on more and more products and building up, you know, kind of bigger and bigger teams. Um, until kind of I, you know, was running a larger software group at Polycom and Again, I kind of knew that I always wanted to be a C E O or, or I'd, I'd morphed away from wanting to be a C F O and wanting to be a C E O or a general manager. And I had a, a mentor at the time who told me that if, if you really wanna be a C E O and you want to be successful, one thing he said, one thing that I learned in my career is you need to do sales. You need to understand what that is about and, and if you're going to lead a sales team or, you know, as a CEO, hold people accountable to sales targets and revenue targets, you have to have done their job or they're not going to respect you, you're not going to understand. So he said, if the, if there's one thing I could recommend, go and do sales, even if it's for a year or two, even if you hate it. Go and do it. So I said, all right, uh, that's what I'm going to do. And I, I intended to do it for a year or two. I, I intended that, you know, I wasn't going to like it. I wasn't going to be successful, but maybe it's the opportunity that I was given. I, I got the opportunity to lead a sales team in Australia for a very successful. Business within Polycom at a very successful time in the market. And it was an absolute blast. Um, I loved every minute of it. And, uh, just found that I, that I like working with customers. I like understanding their problems. I like the challenge that the highs and lows of a sales cycle. It's maybe it's a bit masochistic, but it's, it's an exciting part of the business. So, now in, in a CEO role for a smaller company, I love the fact that I get to do all that. I get product strategy, I get market strategy, I get finance, I get sales, I get, you know, day to day I do all of those things and, you know, really get enjoyment from all of them. Yeah, you know, it's a great point that you made about the sales, especially someone from the finance background. So, we come into a pre conclusion that you can't sell. That's coming from the industry or coming from the discipline, you know, finance discipline, people think you are always an introverted, so you don't enjoy, you know, working with people or enjoy talking to other people. That's that, you know, the industrial conclusion about the industrial conclusion about the profession and you try to just adopt it without going into your deeper roots and find out who you are and what you enjoy doing. Yeah, I lost you there for a minute again. Yeah. So what I was saying is like, this is a dilemma I was in as well. And people told I am an introverted and I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't want to sell. I basically could read numbers and you know, it's a number person. That was the branding given to me while I was in the corporate, uh, environment. Yep. But what I found when I started this business, I, I found myself that I enjoy talking to people. I enjoy meeting people. I enjoy seeing people. Than just crunching numbers. And I think people... Will generally try to kind of fit you in a position and within one dimension Whereas, you know people are multidimensional and to be frank you may not pick it out at first, but I'm an introvert I'm an introvert. I'm an analytical person. I You know am very within myself and making decisions and thinking and things like that But at the same time, I love working with people. I love working with customers. Um, you know, so there, there's absolutely roles and room for, for all of that. You know, you can't, you don't have to just be one thing. True. So true. Um, I want to explore more about your leadership journey and, uh, get to understand, uh, where you're at it and, you know, how you progress it through the road. So is leadership sort of something it's a natural progression for you or you had to work hard to Get yourself into it That's a good question. I I would say that there is an element of inherent capability within leaders I would say that there is kind of something within most good leaders that you kind of just stepped into it and it just kind of came naturally for you. Um, but that's not to say that it can't be developed and that it needs to be developed. So you might have that inherent capability or that inherent nature to step in and be a leader. That doesn't mean that you're a good leader. And just because you don't have the inherent Nature to do that that you can't be a good leader, but for me I did I guess I never really thought about it, but I did Inherently step into leadership positions. So, you know, like in in high school, I would be the the captain of a sports team or in University I was You know vice president in my fraternity and In, you know, I would take on leadership roles on teams within my career. Um, uh, I'm a musician, um, uh, as, as my hobby. And I took on managing and leading my band and doing all the business elements for, uh, you know, uh, managing our band. So I, it did always come naturally, but that didn't necessarily make me a good. I've made plenty of mistakes. Um, done the wrong things, uh, made rash decisions. Uh, so you do just learn over time and you learn from your own. Um, successes and mistakes and you have to, I think it's very important to try to take examples from the leaders around you, both good and bad. I've had some of the best leaders, uh, you know, I can point back to some amazing mentors and coaches and leaders that I've worked for and I have worked for some of the most. horrible people on the planet. Um, and you look back and you just have to take the lessons from all of those. It's true. True. Yeah, no, that's right. So you, you, you need to learn from both. Yeah. Yeah. But again, just because you are inherently like kind of, um, attuned to being a leader and you might naturally step into it. You could be a terrible leader. You're comfortable doing it, but you're not good at it. So true, so true. And you brought up that musical thing, which I was going to ask at the end, but it's a great thing. So you, you are a singer. I am a singer. In a rock band. Yep. Yep. So for... Are you still performing or where you at? I, I don't. So probably for the last 10 or 15 years, it's, I've been more focused on my family and my career, but I had a very fun time. Uh, you know, I started playing in bands when I was in high school and got pretty serious about it in my kind of twenties and thirties. you know, played in some successful bands and did some touring, uh, you know, across, uh, the, the, the Southwest and Midwest of the U S and really enjoyed myself and learned the music business. Uh, so look, I, I think having a creative outlet is, is often very important for, uh, for analytical people. Yeah, for sure. No, that's a great thing. So, so I think it's good to have like anything to do with music. Either, you know, you can be a singer or you can, you know, play an instrument that, that is, uh, I think for me is I can't do any of these things, but I love someone has that skills and we try to get our kids to do that as well as a part of, you know, their career going forward. Uh, yeah, no, it's great to hear that, you know, you enjoyed it and you, you made it at some point and, you know, there's a skill set that you can use at any point. Yep, and, and look, now I'm just, you know, a rock star to my kids and, uh, and it did, look, it did give me that, that desire and ability to perform and to be comfortable. And, look, I think as a, a CEO, um, there is some element of performance and in sales, there's an element of performance. So. Having that comfort and that, that confidence, you know, to step into those, those situations, look at all the pieces, make up who you are. So I, I, I definitely feel that being a performer has been positive on my, my career as well. Yeah, that's right. So we are slowly coming to the end of the conversation, James, and I've got some, uh, you know, generally questions which I ask on the podcast usually. Okay. So one is like, um, now we are living in a global society and businesses are more global, you're running a global business as well. So what's the main challenge or what's the secret recipe, um, working with global teams? Well, yeah, we're, we're in a unique position at Linneus that we have staff all over the world, uh, and we have customers all over the world and it is a massive challenge. Um, we are able to do it now because of globalization and, and frankly, the, the comfort and collaboration that you can now have with remote. Tools with remote video with, you know, all those things having been in the video conferencing industry for, for 20 years before it was big, you know, I've, I've been doing that for years, but I'm so happy now that everyone is comfortable doing video. I can now take serious meetings and really, you know, from beginning to end, I can build a relationship and. You know, build and close a deal over video. I can hire and manage and work with a team that I've never met in person. So all of those things have been incredibly helpful. Um, but the biggest challenges then are, are cultural. Um, so, you know, making sure that you understand your, your customer, your partner, you know, wherever they're coming from. Uh, and the one thing we still haven't been able to solve is time zones. Um, it's still really difficult trying to work across multiple time zones. Um, you know, and, and being the ones in Australia, we're always the ones who are up at one or two in the morning or at four or five in the morning, trying to help out. Um, so that I'd say that's the one challenge, but the one thing I've really tried to do with our team is knowing that we have that challenge. We've got our development team in the UK and India. And we've got our leadership and product and commercial team here in Australia. We know that there's going to be. Some overlap where people are going to have to work at weird times and uncomfortable hours I try to make it so that we keep that to like one or two days a week as much as possible Um at least for internal meetings when it's with customers You kind of can't plan that but at least for our internal things we try to align them so that We have one day where everyone works at weird hours and we just kind of get used to that, but trying to make sure that our staff has that balance where I don't want people working until midnight every night, or, you know, interrupting their family time every night. Um, and it is difficult, but I, I try to. Reinforce that with my team to say, you know, no, this can wait until next Tuesday. This isn't an emergency. Do it when on our night that we've all agreed that we're going to do this. So to me, that's still the biggest remaining challenge is when you've got a global team, you know, really trying to respect and be kind to one another and, you know, recognize that everyone's got. Uh, work life balance and you've got to respect that. That's a great advice and, uh, it's one of the challenges we have as in our business as well. And we're also trying to mitigate or trying to minimize the disruption and, you know, give them a life. You know, some of them, we cannot make them work overnight all the time. So, you know, it's, it's, I know the challenge very well and I'm still trying to find it. solution for that as well. Yeah. And I, as I said, I, I try very hard to, to get our staff to believe that and, and to, to adopt that. Um, but I think my wife and kids would challenge me and say, dad, take your own advice. And, um, just a question, which I always ask as well. So if, if you get the time back, so would you do anything differently, or you're happy with your journey overall? Nope, I would never change anything. Like people, like you kind of get asked that from time to time. I would change zero because whatever you change would potentially change everything and so I wouldn't change anything but I would just make sure that I've learned from everything. Yeah, I wouldn't go back and alter anything. That's good. That make it easy. Yeah. I'm sure your story president with many of our listeners and if they want to get in touch with you, how could they do that, James? Uh, yeah, so, um, the easiest way would be at james.Brennan@primeagroup.com. Uh, so Sumit, I'll make sure I give that to you and you can put that in the, uh, the notes of the podcast. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you very much for your time and very insightful conversation. I really appreciate it. It's been fun, Sumit.