Today we sit down with Mohammad Ali Shah, a seasoned leader with over a decade of senior management experience and the CEO of I-Synergy Group Ltd. Mohammad shares his remarkable insights from his journey in business strategy, operations and cultivating impactful partnerships within both the private and public sectors.
Throughout his journey, Mohammad has encountered valuable lessons, some of which he learned the hard way. In this episode, he shares four guiding principles that have been instrumental in his personal and professional development:
These principles serve as a compass for navigating the complex world of business and leadership. He emphasises the importance of emotional intelligence alongside logical thinking. Leadership requires a balance between cognitive strengths and an understanding of emotions, regardless of one's age or experience.
At the intersection of science, technology, business and positive impact, Mohammad envisions a world where deep tech entrepreneurs can drive meaningful change. He's a strategic thinker with a wealth of experience in consulting, research and building capabilities for startups and global companies.
Join us as we explore how he thrives on creating and scaling businesses and extends his support to passionate entrepreneurs, leaving an indelible mark on the world of innovation and leadership.
Today we sit down with Mohammad Ali Shah, a seasoned leader with over a decade of senior management experience and the CEO of I-Synergy Group Ltd. Mohammad shares his remarkable insights from his journey in business strategy, operations and cultivating impactful partnerships within both the private and public sectors.
Throughout his journey, Mohammad has encountered valuable lessons, some of which he learned the hard way. In this episode, he shares four guiding principles that have been instrumental in his personal and professional development:
These principles serve as a compass for navigating the complex world of business and leadership. He emphasises the importance of emotional intelligence alongside logical thinking. Leadership requires a balance between cognitive strengths and an understanding of emotions, regardless of one's age or experience.
At the intersection of science, technology, business and positive impact, Mohammad envisions a world where deep tech entrepreneurs can drive meaningful change. He's a strategic thinker with a wealth of experience in consulting, research and building capabilities for startups and global companies.
Join us as we explore how he thrives on creating and scaling businesses and extends his support to passionate entrepreneurs, leaving an indelible mark on the world of innovation and leadership.
Hello, and welcome to season two of the books of the boardroom podcast. This is a podcast where we talked to and professionals, such as CEOs and CFOs about the journey they went on to become the leaders they are today. We will discuss the challenges they faced, the people that had experience that shaped their growth and what it takes to become a true leader. My name is I'm the managing director of biscuit and I'll be your co-host. This podcast is proudly brought to you by Briscoe. Prisca helps medium to large Australian companies comfortably meet their financial obligations in a cost-effective manner by providing them with the pulley chain outsourced finance staff. Thanks for listening. Today, I'm talking to Shah Mohammed Ali, Group CEO of Ice Energy Group, a company listed in ASX, operating out of Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. Shah, warmly welcome you to Books to the Boardroom podcast. Thank you so much for having me. it's a... Privilege to be here. No, it's great. Great to have you. And first of all, um, just for my curiosity, what does iSynergy Group do? So iSynergy Group basically it's quite a, has a quite a diverse, uh, portfolio. Um, we have, uh, businesses in, uh, Southeast Asia predominantly. And of course we are looking to expand and we are on the move towards doing it. We operate in several jurisdictions. Um, Currently our regional HQ is in Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, but our main markets are Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, and of course Singapore as well. We are predominantly a tech company. Uh, with several verticals. Um, the main vertical, which operates out of Southeast Asia, and there are certain verticals that we are operating out of Perth, Australia. The one that is a main vertical, which is, uh, we call it as a gig economy platform. It's an aggregated platform that actually connects online merchants, um, to, um, affiliate, uh, marketing, uh, micro agents or micro influencers. And at the same time, we partner up with, uh, you know, uh, institutes of higher learning, um, uh, financial institution, telcos, et cetera, to offer customized, uh, products and services, uh, to our members basically. So it's a much more holistic approach, uh, rather than just having, you know, affiliate marketing. It's basically providing gig workers access to, um, services or benefits that they get from a full time job. You know, during the, uh, COVID period, we realized, uh, you know, the, the entire sort of gig economy boomed significantly, you know, Uber Eats, um, you know, Uber, uh, of course, in this part of the world, Grab is pretty big, um, as well. And of course, a lot of companies were hiring, uh, you know, knowledge workers, uh, remotely. So we wanted to leverage on that and to get people to have access to, uh, added income, uh, by taking up, you know, gig rules. But the problem with gig, uh, you know, society is number one, it's not regulated. Number two is that workers do not have access to benefits. So there's no health care provided to gig workers. They don't have access to credit. Um, in most jurisdictions that we work for anyone to have access to, uh, credit, for example. Mortgage or may it be any type of loans, right? They need to have a full time job. They need to be contributing to, uh, you know, the retirement scheme, etc. But what we have is, is data of people having recurring income. Meaning to say that what income they have, uh, accumulated so far and what is their potential income and that data is with consent. Of course, we share with financial institutions and then financial institutions can offer them, uh, customized, uh, products and services we are applying. So that's also, uh, something going beyond the regular sort of affiliate marketing model, as you would say. So the other, uh, model that works of, uh, Perth is basically having an R& D center. whereby we collaborate with institutes of higher learning. You know, they've got, you know, all these brilliant people doing research in cutting edge technology. Uh, what we do is that we take those cutting edge technology and incorporate it something, uh, viable in terms of business. And then we commercialize those IPs and we share, uh, royalties in that manner. So we take all these brilliant ideas, uh, and we try to commercialize them. Um, and To support startups in that way. So you can say sort of like an incubator. Um, for idea from going from ideation to commercialization of ideas, basically. So we take a bit of equity into those projects. We fund those projects from a monetary perspective. At the same time, we harness, uh, the intelligence we provide them with tech support. We provide them with mentorship and then see how we can actually use those products in the market and we see how they go about doing it. We have a, you know, uh, plan for them in terms of their exit. Either our group absorbs, uh, those projects if they fit into what we are doing, or there is an exit plan for them. Either they'll be standalone, there'll be profit share with them, or, uh, we get an exit via an acquisition, uh, with our partners, et cetera, et cetera. So that's basically, uh, uh, you know, what we're doing in, in Perth. It's a model that we would want to replicate in other jurisdictions because there's a lot of push towards entrepreneurship in the Southeast Asia region as well and also into the Middle East. Yeah. It sounds like in a nutshell. That's right. Yeah. I don't, I don't think, you know, fighting means is enough for you to explain all what you do. So you go, you know, you've got a lot on your plate. The main idea is you are helping mostly the entrepreneurs and the big economy, especially. Those who are freelancers, those who want to work for, you know, remotely. So, so do you see a, like what you said, the tremendous uh, uh, change during the covid time or the pandemic time, so now people are shifting towards it and, uh, low is catching up to help them or what's happening in that market like, uh, yeah, so there, there are two factors. Number one is, of course covid was a period whereby, you know, it was very difficult for a lot of people. Um, a lot of businesses had to shut down because they were on, uh, you know, brick and mortar aspect. Now with technology, um, they're able to come back and offer their products and services, uh, into the market. That's number one. Um, number two was, you know, um, even, uh, companies that were operating had to let go of a lot of their workforce. And we've seen that trend continuing after COVID as well. So, uh, So what talents, you know, there are a lot of talents out there, uh, knowledge, uh, workers, et cetera, et cetera. So what do they do? Uh, they are now offering services to different, uh, companies. For example, Let's talk about web design. So there are a lot of freelance, uh, you know, uh, web designers out there. Um, there are a lot of freelance accountants, uh, out there that would want to offer, uh, their services to various different, uh, companies, right? So what it does is that You know, uh, with the new generation, you know, the Gen X, uh, so Gen Z now, they want to work at their own pace. Uh, they don't want, uh, a boss to tell them how they should be doing and what they should be doing, et cetera, et cetera. They want to be, you know, uh, you know, to have their own ways of work life balance kind of a thing. So in that sense, they can work from anywhere. Um, any time that they want and projects that they are interested in, right? Similarly, the same thing, uh, happens in the e commerce space as well. Uh, there are a lot of emergence of, um, uh, merchants who have gone from, you know, having brick and mortar businesses to e commerce and because of, you know, uh, pandemic, um, a lot of their, uh, I would say revenue dip. So, they don't have enough capital to carry out the conventional marketing. So what now these gig workers do is that having imagined, you know, the emergence of influences if you take TikTok or, or Instagram, you know, having, you know, million followers, you know, 80, 000 followers, etc, etc, are there, what they're trying to do is to monetize. Um, their, their, their influence for that example. So basically what we're giving, uh, what we're doing is to giving them a platform so that they can actually share, uh, you know, uh, deals that are created by, uh, what you may call it, um, e commerce, uh, merchants and promote their products. So what happens in the thing that is number one for e commerce merchant, the cost goes down significantly. And their sales goes up because now you've got one person who's promoting your product to a million of their followers. And then in our portal, we've got over 40, 000, uh, you know, influences from various different jurisdictions and is growing and about 2 million users there. So imagine you're a small time, um, uh, e commerce selling cakes, for example, and you don't have enough budget to carry out, you know, a campaign. Uh, may it be via via Facebook or Instagram or whatever, but your budget is not that much. Here you have the opportunity to actually get people, uh, to market your product and pay them commissions only when a sales happens, right? This actually guarantees themselves, not just impressions. So this is where we are, uh, leveraging on, on, on in the market space, uh, for influencers to actually monetize their influence. And also people who have skill sets like accounting, um, web design, programming, um, or maybe, you know, HR stuff as well, right? To be able to offer their services on our platform. And to be able to monetize their, their talent there as well. So, that's where, and we see the trend is going to, uh, move, uh, even further, uh, because right now a lot of companies are cutting costs and they're outsourcing a lot of their services. So, hence, this gives an opportunity for people who have this talent to be able to, you know, capitalize. So, you can have a full time job, but on the side, you're also doing some side gig as well, right? Yeah. So, it's, it's a means for people to have added income, added savings, et cetera, et cetera. So, one thing we always tell our members is that, you know, the income that you generate, spend it wisely. The best is to save and invest. Interesting. So you not only provide them the platform, but also some advice as well to make sure that we've got a learning and development platform. which actually, uh, whereby people can actually offer training programs. So we have partnered with, uh, you know, Institutes of Higher Learning like UWA, University of Western Australia is one of it, as well, of course, a couple of local universities around the region whereby they offer micro credentials. Um, so that they can be, uh, continuous, uh, upskilling and self-development as well. Uh, so there's one trend that is coming into, uh, play is that, uh, when, uh, companies are looking for talent, they're looking for specific skills. For example, if someone is, uh, uh, going, uh, into, uh, front end, uh, you know, coding, for example. So they want to know if this person is actually good at front end coding. Do they have specific skills for that? They may not know, they may not need if this guy has a university qualifications or not, but they want to know that do they have those specific skills? And this is where the trend of micro credentialing from an aggregated, uh, institute comes into play. Right. Even in leadership, right? So, uh, when we're looking at hiring leaders, we're looking at if we're looking for someone who can help us in, in terms of acquisition, mergers and acquisitions, you know, does this person have that particular skills? If we are looking for someone who would help us on our ESG agenda, uh, does this person understand what ESG is all about? Um, all those sort of things. So micro credentials are the best way to filter candidates. So I think the uptake of micro credentials is, is going to be the next, uh, sort of big thing in edutech or education. That's what we are looking at, uh, at least in, in the Southeast Asian region and also in the Middle East. Oh, that's very interesting. Um, I know you're very passionate about, you know, this kind of entrepreneurship. So just want to understand like, where did that come from? So sort of take us through, uh, your journey yourself. How did that happen? And, uh, tell me that story. Okay. So, um, started off way back, you know, when I was in, uh, high school. So, um, I went to an Australian, um, um, high school, um, and at that time it was something very new in Malaysia and actually the Institute started off to cater for, um, Australian expats and also, uh, you know, the, the diplomats were speaking as well. Pos, uh, based in Malaysia. So after that, you know, they opened up to general population. Right. Uh, my, my, yeah, so then I, I joined and my family's plan for me, you know, coming in from, you know, Southeast Asian side, you know, families plan out your future. Yeah. Uh, so the plan was to, for me to go through the, the initial, uh, stage of high school and then continue my treasury education in, in, in Australia. So I joined. The school. I remember I was in grade six at that time. Um, and when I walked in, it was my first day and, and um, I think it was mid-semester, I joined mid-semester and I saw people playing cricket and that was the first time I actually saw them playing cricket. And it was very intriguing. You know, they had a really nice field and a, and a and a pitch there. And it was in Malaysia. It's not very popular, but it was very interesting for me. So when I went in, you know, second day or third day, they were like, you need to pick a, a, a, a club to join. So I was like, okay, you know, uh, I've never tried, uh, this thing called cricket. Let me, uh, try it out. It seems interesting. So I went to the, the coach, uh, and, and he asked me, uh, Do you know anything about cricket? I said, no clue. Uh, then he was like, um, go to the library and search for Don Bradman and ask for some, uh, videotapes. At that time, you know, uh, it was basically videotapes. DVDs were new, but I think the, the, the matches that were recorded were predominantly on, on videotapes. Ask for some videotapes on ashes. Um, you know, spend about, you know, an hour or so because the, the, the, the games are very long. You won't be able to watch the, uh, but as for some, some tapes of ashes, watch that for a day or two, spend an hour or so watching it and then come back to me and tell me if you, if, if what, what do you think about cricket then? That's pretty good actually. Sort of, you know, you can use that. He is. I. Yeah, so I read the, the biography of Don Bradman, uh, very, very interesting, very inspiring, uh, and then watched a few games of Ashes, um, of course, not the entire thing, uh, yeah, but the main highlights of it and I found that, you know, the game's really, really interesting and very strategic in that sense, you know, um, so I joined, uh, cricket and, and, uh, the cricket club and, and, um, So slowly, I found myself talking to the coaches more about strategy, uh, uh, and, and, you know, when we had games, uh, the coach would tell me, you know, why don't you go and, and, and, and say a bit of words to the team, uh, of, of, uh, try to boost their morale, et cetera, et cetera. So I would do that and spend a lot of time talking to coach about strategy and hence, I mean, I was not good as a player. I was, I tried to be. Um, but ended up becoming the captain of the team, uh, purely based on, you know, coach's guidance and saying, you know, you come up with good strategies, uh, um, and, and, and you, you know, when you say something, the team listens. So yeah, uh, that's how I, I, I started tuning my, uh, strategic mindset and focusing on strategy and also motivating, uh, people. So, uh, then that carried on, uh, you know, joined the track and field, uh, club as well. Same thing happened, uh, ending up becoming the captain of the track and field, even though I was not a very good runner, did win a few medals here and there, but they were not very significant. Um, yeah. And that thing continued, uh, became the house captain, um, at one point, uh, then the, uh, SRC president and finally became the school captain. So it was just a trend in that sense. And most of the time I was just asked to do tasks off of thinking, motivating people and coming up with ideas. Right? And at that time, I had no clue. Uh, but that is, was the starting point, uh, in my life, you know, uh, of leadership, um, thinking outside the box, um, you know, coming up with ideas to raise funds, um, uh, for charities, et cetera. And in that sense, the idea of entrepreneurship came about, you know, having side hustles on the side. I remember. Um, you know, uh, selling lemonade to, to in the community, um, uh, in the neighborhood, et cetera, um, collecting, you know, stamps and then, uh, selling it as well. So the idea of the whole notion was, of course the internet was there, but it was not as what we think now. It was still dial up at that time until I reached university, it became a lot better. So when I joined, uh, university, the whole idea was for me to go to Australia, but didn't happen. And I was. So, to Canada. So, it ended up and ended up in Canada in in in in Vancouver. The weather was was not as bad. So, spend a couple of months in Toronto which was really really cold weather. I mean, coming from tropics, it was really difficult to adjust. So, I moved to to to to Vancouver um and and University of British Columbia there. Um and then um you know, although I was I was on scholarship, I had to pay for my, you know, accommodation and food, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so ideas of how do I do that? So I remember, uh, you know, we started a club that would wet assignments. So there were a lot of, uh, uh, and that took really took off. So it was started. I started it by wetting assignments and, uh, coaching people on mathematics and, and, and, and other stuff. And. You know, people were happy to pay for that, those services and that continued and we ended up with the group of 10 at one point, right? So that's was the entire sort of entrepreneurship in the midst. I joined student associations, became president of student associations. So the whole sort of essence of resonated. Um, till I joined, uh, you know, uh, the main sort of, uh, corporate life, uh, and the turning point was, uh, you know, I was, uh, an associate, uh, working at, uh, you know, I was involved in quite a high profile, uh, project, uh, which had involvement of, uh, state governments and, and there were various different, uh, stakeholders. Um, I joined, uh, the, uh, project quite late. Um, why? Because, you know, uh, they were lacking people and, uh, the leader had to step out. So I joined in, um, of course, was, was my major, first major, uh, project. Uh, but, yeah, we, we finished on time, uh, and also it was within budget and I remember. Uh, the last presentation I gave, um, and, and our main stakeholders were the Japanese. And after my, uh, presentation, uh, you know, uh, the, the chairman spoke, who's a Japanese guy. And he was like, you have talent like boss, huh? I didn't understand what it meant at that time. And he smiled and said, you have talent like boss. Uh, and, and then, uh, I, I, I, I took it as it was and then later on, you know, my, uh, senior explained that, you know, he said, you have good leadership skills and you need to challenge yourself more. We'll be putting you in difficult projects from now on. Um, yeah, since then it started and, and I guess at some point I was at the right place at the right time. Opportunities came my way. Um, I was fortunate enough to travel and work in various different jurisdictions in Europe and in Middle East and Southeast Asia as well. I started off my career as an investment banker. Then moved into more of a regulatory, uh, aspect compliance and regulatory side, uh, in terms of formulating policies, regulatory policies, then was fortunate enough to, um, uh, go into nation building. focusing on developmental projects. Um, so that opened my eyes to, um, a lot of, I was exposed to a lot of startups, um, and, and, and, and, and tech businesses. That's where tech was introduced to technology. Um, and then from there on, uh, you know, um, I was asked to sit on a couple of, uh, boards of tech companies, um, invested in a few, uh, startups that did really well. Um, and yeah, so. Um, it has been, uh, there have been ups and downs. Of course, you know, there have been times that, uh, you know, I, I would think I, if I had the opportunity, I would do, uh, differently. Um, but I have been fortunate. I would, I would have to say that, uh, opportunities did come and I, um, stepped up to the plate. I would say, yeah, no, not that story. And you know, what resonated with me mostly is what your coach has done while you're at school. Um, Because we all know when we are at school, so who gets the highlight is the best performer. Most of the time, the best performer will become the captain of the team and, you know, everyone is running around, but not the one who has the strategic thinking and not the one who has the ability to motivate others. So it will become the lynchpin, right? So the perception is or the attention is always going towards the best performer. So the leadership and best performers story, I mean, they're two different things, right? So we love this performance, but it doesn't necessarily the best performer become a leader, but they could be. But what your coach has done is identified the best leader for the For the school team. Yes, definitely. And I think, uh, um, I owe a lot to, to, uh, my coach at a very early age, uh, identifying and pushing me, uh, and asking me, so what do you think, uh, who should go third? Um, and, and I would say, okay, um, uh, let's have this guy in because he's a much more consistent, uh, batsman. We get the hard hitters first, uh, to go first to get the pace up and then we need to stabilize and et cetera. It's like, okay, good. You know? So yeah, it, it, it definitely was, uh, you know, um, helpful and I think it was a lot more motivating. Um, you know, when you, at an early stage, when you have the right guidance. It's very important. Um, you may not be the best at everything, but if you have the right attitude and the right guidance, um, I think, uh, one can actually be quite successful. Yes, so true. And I can relate to my, my, at my school time as well. So I became the captain of the school hockey team. You know, what happened is the, but I wasn't the best performer as well. I was sort of big and you know, very, very thin personality, but the, the highest performer at that time, he left the team. He left the team because he was not given the, the captaincy of the team. And then he left completely. That fellow is very, very athletic and wherever he go, he's really good at what, but the problem is he didn't have that real sense of leadership because he always has the ego about the performance that he has and the strategy or the putting this team together. That was not his objective. You know what I mean? His objective is to score something like that, like, you know, always perform at a high level, but not about the whole team's well being. Definitely. I think, uh, Sumit, you've touched on a very important part. Um, there's something that leaders get into, uh, at some point on in their life is ego. And I think if you can curve your ego and, and, and make sure that it does not go beyond a certain point, um, is very, very crucial. Um, and I realized that it happens to a lot of us. Um, you know, a lot of my friends and colleagues, even myself at some point, you know, you really have to curve out and say, look, you know, you're being a bit too egoistic at this time. You know, uh, go down a little bit, you know, humility is something, uh, that is, is, is, is going to do you good. Uh, so hence, uh, reflection is very, um, and doesn't necessarily need to be, uh, you know, uh, take up a lot of your time during the day. Uh, but you know, before the day ends, um, it's a practice that I've been doing over the last eight years now is to reflect upon how the day has gone. What are some of the things that I've done that I could have done differently? Um, you know, how have I dealt with people? Uh, except if you reflect upon your actions, um, and doesn't necessarily take me to be, uh, take up a lot of your time, you tend to, um, uh, be a little bit more humble and, and, and, and try to be, to have that humility inside you to say that, yes, I have been wrong. Uh, you know, uh, what I've done is wrong. I need to correct myself. I think if that is something that we could, uh, practice on a regular basis. The, the enemy, which is ego tends to, to, to curve down significantly. That's right. So ego stops you going beyond that, you know, I mean, it's, uh, it's basically doesn't let you push beyond your boundaries. Yes, correct. So that's, that's the thing that we need to overcome as leaders. I think you, you know, really touched upon that nicely. I really, since we are, you know, we are sort of time is the biggest thing I want to get into the. Four principles that you work on, uh, I see in my notes that you have really good four principles. I want to touch upon those ones very quickly. If you can, like starting with the making mistakes is an essential part of learning and growing. Yeah. Um, I mean, mistakes. We all make mistakes. Um, and the important part is that when we do make mistakes, number one is to own those mistakes. Um, and to be accountable for those mistakes. Yes, I've made those mistakes and how do I not repeat them in the future? Number one, what could have I done better to mitigate some of the, you know, uh, mistakes that I've done, right? So if you don't miss mistakes, these things won't happen. But again, we don't make mistakes deliberately, they just happen, but we will make mistakes. Uh, it's just that the important aspect is to reflect upon those mistakes and to think about rectification. And also what are some of the lessons that we have learned, um, from those mistakes? And I think that is important. Uh, mistakes should not be taken, uh, as like, oh my goodness, you know, what's going to happen now. Uh, it's just something that prepares you to move forward. Uh, with a different mindset with a better strategy. So I think best strategies come in after you've made a mistake in my, in my sort of, uh, you know, experience, you know, every time something happens, uh, one comes out stronger, uh, the next time. Of course, I can, in my sense, of course, this needs to be calculated. Um, um, and it should not be repetitive. But, uh, Penalizing yourself or your team for a mistake that has been made or things that have been overlooked, uh, is not something one should not dwell upon again and again. It's just a learning phase. We should just, you know, buckle up, move forward with a different strategy, different mindset. So I think, uh, mistakes teach us a lot of things. That's perfect. Best ideas come, uh, after things go wrong. That's so true. And the time versus money. So the balance in the time and money. Yes. Uh, there's one thing I've learned that money cannot buy is time. Um, so utilization of time is really important. Of course, that comes with experience. Of course, uh, it's, it's not something that we can just learn out of a textbook. It's based on lessons that have been learned mistakes that you've made, uh, that I've made in the past. Now, I realize the essence of time. Uh, and timing for things are very important. So if maybe a product launch, maybe a merger or an accusation, it's all about timing. Maybe a great news that you would want to release in the market, uh, that would have an impact towards, uh, you know, the share price, et cetera. which I have to be very, very off, uh, right now is timing. So I think if we could associate, uh, time value of money, uh, that is something very crucial. And some of the things that I practice. Um, uh, you know, on a regular basis is to measure time based on and I give value to time in terms of monetary values. If you start giving time monetary value, then you will realize the importance of it and then you will execute tax according to that. So most of the time we don't put value, uh, onto time in terms of monetary value, right? So there's a practice in our organization that whatever time it takes to execute a certain task, um, uh, we look at wastage in terms of time as well and we put a monetary value to it. So then it's, it's, it's a, it's a good practice for the team to realize, okay, if we are doing this is going to waste X amount of time, hence we are losing X amount of money here. So yeah, so that's, that's the thing that a monetary figure for the time that you waste, then only some certain people get enlightened on like, you know, how much we sort of, you know, and it turns out really well, uh, actually executing, uh, projects. So, when we are actually budgeting, we do, do put, uh, monetary value on time there, as well. That's fantastic. So, of course, that's not something that we show to our clients, but of course, on, from an internal project planning perspective, then we'll put a monetary value there that, look, if it goes beyond this, that means we've made X amount of loss, and then that reduces the budget, uh, to X amount. So, that's a practice that we've, uh, implemented, and it's working out quite well for us. That sounds great. And the other thing you are talking about is, uh, always approach things with the principle of, uh, functionality and utility. Yes. Very, very, uh, is something that, that has stuck to me over the last, I would say, you know, 15 years. Uh, let's understand what is function and what is utility function is what something does. And just keep in mind that function of something does not change. Utility is the usefulness of that something. And that is in a constant state of evolution and constant state of flux. For example, let's take an example of bank, banking, right? First bank, uh, was established in 1472 in, uh, Florence, Italy. The name was Montadipo Cina. Right. Uh, and the whole function of banking, uh, is, uh, financial intermediation. Now, after, you know, hundreds of years, we've got neobank, challenger banks, you know, completely digital banks are coming into play, but has the function of banking changed all these years? It hasn't, it's still financial intermediation, but the utility of the banking has evolved significantly. Now we're offering various different, uh, products to various different segments. Uh, it used to be branch banking. Now it's virtual banking and all that. So it's all about understanding what the function of your business is. And knowing, okay, this is what we do, and we need to enhance the usefulness about, of our products and services, and let's focus on continuously offer better products and services, and that will be the utility of those. If we are focused on changing the function of something, we'll be wasting our time doing so, and it's not going to get us anywhere. So, what I've been preaching and, and, and, and, and talking to my team about is, Focus on the utility aspect, the, the business that you're in, understand the function of that business. Sometimes we don't even know what the function of our business is. Uh, you know, uh, uh, let's also talk about telephones. The first telephone that came about, you know, by Alexander Graham Bell, the whole idea was people to communicate, uh, when they're not in person. Right. Has that changed over the years? It hasn't because that has remained the same, but the utility now we've got smart phones or VR glasses and all that coming in incorporating all these, but the function has not changed. So if we now divert our attention towards coming up with a different function or a new definition, etc, etc, we're wasting our time. It's a matter of resource utilization. Let's focus that on. enhancing the utility or the usefulness of what we are offering rather than, you know, thinking about, you know, uh, are we going to change the function of it if we are evolving? And, and a lot of organizations get into this, this thing when they are going for transformation. Um, you know, from a macro to a macro to a micro perspective, uh, my suggestion has always been or my practice has always been is that this is the business that we are in. If we are going through transformation, let's look at it from the utility perspective rather than the, the, the nature of business or, or the function of business itself. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I love what you said. Yeah. Because a lot of things have already been invented. It's a matter of now. Find a different way of, you know, utilizing the, what, what we, what has been invented. Right. So there's no much new ideas. It's all about that, uh, refining or, or, or get a more profound approach to what has been already been used. I think the innovation, the resource that you have or the main innovation that happens in terms of, you know, taking an idea and taking it to the next stage. This is where utility comes into play and the usefulness of that. So, you know, uh, when iPhone came about, the utility of iPhone, you know, uh, Steve Jobs talks about, you know, iPod, phone. Um, or an email all in one, right? So that was the utility of it. And that was the actual core innovation whereby you're offering more than that is being currently offered, right? So I think building upon ideas based on the essence of utility, same thing with machines. The whole idea was to reduce the muscle function, right? The function of muscles. Now we've gone into AI and all those technology is the utilization of, uh, brain, you know, muscles in that sense. But the idea of function remains the same. It's just that on the utility aspects. And this is where if we. Put more focus into, uh, you know, uh, creating value, uh, in that sense, uh, will be a lot more rewarding and it will waste a lot less time. Hence, you know, the, the, the, the time value of money there as well. That's right. Love it. The last principle, um, that's about the simplicity of the communication. So you brought in the fact that, you know, if your mother can understand what you're talking about. Yeah. And there's a story behind it. So, uh, basically anyone can make a simple thing complicated. It's not very difficult to, to complicate things. It's true. It's not difficult at all to, to, you know, get something which is very simple and to complicate it. Right. But it's a skill to simplify complicated concepts. So what, you know why I said, if your mother can understand, so, you know, basically when, when I'm doing a pitch, uh, which might seem, which might seem complicated or has concepts, which are difficult to, to understand. I'll get my mother to, to, you know, I'll pitch it to my mother and say, do you understand this? And if she says she has no clue, then I know there'll be someone in the team or there'll be someone who may not catch it. So, uh, what I would do is to come back, refine it, simplify it, and then present it again. So hence, you know, if your mother can, can actually understand what you're talking about, may it be a very complicated thing, but if she can understand it, um, then anyone can understand that as well. So the, the whole notion is try not to complicate things. but to simplify things. Whatever complications that come to your way, try to simplify it so that your team can resonate with it. Because a lot of time, you know, people agree to what you are saying, but they may not necessarily understand what you're trying to do. So, to have clarity, dumb it down as much as possible, right? Don't think, you know, we have to throw flashy words across or bombastic words across all the time. Uh, keep it simple, uh, you know, so that everyone is aligned and everyone can actually resonate to it. Right. Um, I mean, even in the shareholders, uh, meeting, et cetera. So you have shareholders which are coming from various different backgrounds, right? Um, some are tech savvy, some may not. They are coming from tech backgrounds. Some may not be coming from tech backgrounds. Let's just dumb it down so that everyone's aligned and simple for everyone to say, yes, this is the, the, what we're going to. Same thing in our board level right? Make it precise and make it simple for people to understand. And I think then you waste a lot less time and you get the buy ins that you need. Yeah. And also, uh, with people best is, uh, to make sure that they, it's simple for them to understand. Yeah, that's, that's completely agree, actually. Uh, so this, in business that I'm in also, we are trying to every day, what we're trying to do is to simplify what we do. Not to complicate because we started with with a more complicated structure But I think it's getting now more simplified so that we can explain to anyone what we do Because it really aligns people Then you can focus on on common goals Um, num number two is, uh, you can get the buy-ins that you need. Aspiring leaders, you know, when you need to pitch something, uh, to someone, may it be, you know, the, the c e o or the board for CEOs to get things across the board. Prime thing is just to keep it simple. Yeah, that's true. Um, people appreciate simplicity, uh, rather than, Um, you know, things that they don't understand, um, and also for your team, uh, if things are kept, uh, you know, in a way that people can resonate, um, they will be a lot more on board, uh, and to help out, um, as well. That's so, those are the principles that I, um, have, uh, been practicing over, over a period of time. And, um, they have actually proven to be quite, uh, you know, um, integral, uh, for my day in, day out, uh, work and non work activities as well. Now what you say, yeah, so bringing the why, why, you know, why factor most of the time, like why we do what we do so that message is going to be clear because if you don't know that, so we overcomplicate the message. If you can simply say, you know. You know, if, if, if that goes with that Y factor, that's going to be very simple. Yep. Definitely. Perfect. And since the, you know, the time is going to be against us, I need to ask you a quick questions just to beat your brain. One is about the, the emotional intelligence. I mean, it's now a buzzword these days, a lot of people talk about like, how, how do you leverage it or how do you use it in, in your business? Okay. Uh, emotions, given that we are all human beings, we have certain, you know, uh, emotions that we express at different times. Uh, and that is something that is there. And if people are expecting for someone to become cold, that's going to be impossible, right? Uh, we are going to be expressive. We are all individuals. So I think what leaders need to do is, uh, number one is to keep their emotions in check. How they react. to, to certain situations. This is very important. Um, and you know, I've read several books. One of it would be, you know, Shenzhou Art of War, uh, is that, you know, um, uh, a general who keeps his emotional intact, even though he or she is losing a battle is the actual winner of that particular battle. Um, so, um, the practice that I do personally is to reflect. In the sense of, you know, what have my emotions been during the day? If they've been aligned or not, etc. Uh, because you don't know when you offend someone. You don't know, uh, directly or indirectly, uh, your acts might, uh, uh, produce results that might be undesirable. So, I think emotion, understanding people, and I've been very fortunate to have worked in various different jurisdictions to understand different cultural sensitivities, uh, and then to come and, and, and, and, you know, appreciate what people do in the sense that you may not agree with people, but it is important that you respect them for that. So it may not be aligned to what you are looking at, but you respect them for what they believe it is. So I think if we have that, uh, in common, uh, then one can actually work together more effectively, uh, understand one another more, uh, in, in, in, in a much more in depth manner. So I think leaders need to, and because, you know, I would say a lot of your part, a lot of your job role requires to get people to do things and in order for you to get them to do things, you know, is. Uh, to understand their emotions and to react accordingly and to be able to motivate them so that you can bring out the best in them. You know, the book also says there are two kind of, uh, generals, uh, general, the number one general is. who has soldiers who will fight for him. The number two is where his soldiers will not just fight for him, but are willing to die for him. Why? Because that particular general is the guy that they could resonate in a, in a deeper manner, right? So in order to do that, emotions play a very important. I think, uh, one really has to be aligned with his emotions. Or her emotions first, and then to align themselves with other people's emotions as well. That's a great, great explanation about it. And I think this is also related to what you said. How important is giving and receiving praise for leaders, for self leadership as well as for, you know, motivating others? Yeah. So because you are, I know you, you always try to give praise as well as you are. You love to get some praise as well that way. Uh, definitely. You, yeah, definitely. You know, there was a, a, a, when I was a kid, I used to read, uh, dune, uh, novel by Frank, her, uh, Herbert. And there was a line, uh, you know, there was a statement that was made. Uh, there, uh, it states stated A great man doesn't seek to lead. Uh, he is called to it, and he answers. And that is what resonates in the sense that if you want to be a leader, you should be called upon. Um, and that's where people recognize that you're the guy who is going to be leading them. And once that opportunity comes, you should answer. Don't let it go. Yeah. So if someone asks you to step up, just step up because that is an opportunity that's going to open a lot more doors. And I think that has been, uh, something that has actually helped in terms of, you know, expediting my career as well. That's fantastic. And I'm interested to know, like, what do you do to elevate your leadership career? Like, do you do anything in particular or you are planning to do anything in the future? Um, well, there's a continuous learning every day. We learn something new. Um, you know, so it's a continuous learning phase. Um, of course, um, one of the things of leadership is to also have succession planning in place as well. So while you are grooming someone to lead, you learn a few things about yourself as well. So one thing that I think I also practice is, um, succession planning. Um, is to groom, um, others, um, and to share, uh, your experiences with others and at the same time, seek knowledge, uh, in the sense that, you know, like I mentioned about micro credentialing, I'm currently taking up a program, uh, from University of Oxford, which is a micro credentialing on ESG, just to understand what environment governance, um, and sustainability is all about, right? So, the more zeal you have in terms of learning, and learning can come from many different forms, right? You can learn from your team, you can learn from your seniors, you can learn from wherever. Uh, just be open to learning, and here is, you know, where you talked about ego in the, in the beginning. Uh, if you could curve your ego and you have an open mindset, uh, towards learning, uh, is important. And also, do take care of your, you know, physical health. It's very important. Um, as well, uh, I've been a strong advocate of, you know, uh, having the right mind and the right, right, right body as well, you know, shaping the mind and the body at the same time because leaders really need that. Uh, as well. So, um, keeping up my goals towards achieving a certain level of health. Uh, that's number one, eating right, you know, exercising right in, you know, keeping up with sports as much as I can and, and find time for family as well. So I think with this holistic, uh, viewpoint, uh, I think, uh, that is basically the plan now to continue and having the right state of mind. I think, um, that's, that's my plan at the moment. Huh. Few challenges as well. We, we'll take up, uh, mountain climbing. Um, you know, I've been to the, the, to Nepal, the first base at, uh, oh wow. At the base camp. Uh, my next would be, um, uh, to go slightly up, but of course you need to be in a better, better shape. Uh, also, uh, preparing to run a marathon. Um, in cia we've got this, uh, Raja marathon. So I've taken part previously as well, but took a break for some time. Uh, But also shaping myself to, to, to, to do that again. That's fantastic. Love it. And one last thing, like, what's your message for young and upcoming leaders? Um, you know, keep it simple. That's number one. Keep things simple. Uh, do not shy away from opportunities, uh, even though you feel you're comfortable. And this is an, uh, coming from experience because opportunities, uh, Sumit, I don't know, this is just, uh, happens to me or for, or to all of us. When you are comfortable in, in, in yourself, in terms of what you're doing. Currently, that is when opportunities come your way and we tend to to, you know, pass them by. So I think be vigilant. Uh, if there is an opportunity that comes in, even though you're in your comfort zone, take that challenge, uh, be open to challenge challenges. Don't fear making mistakes. And because, as I mentioned, you know, with mistakes, we learn. So, uh, don't fear, um, challenges, take up the challenge, uh, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Of course, you know, mistakes should be calculated again there, uh, but don't, don't fear that and um, be, uh, true to yourself, um, and, and reflect what you've done. If you are true to yourself. Uh, at the end of the day, and I think that's what counts. If you've done your best, truly done your best, and you think you couldn't have done better. That's the best to it. Uh, when times are good, uh, celebrate your success, but plan for downtime, downtime as well, right? Because sometimes when, you know, times are good, we tend to go overboard. Uh, that is the, the test of success is that you are planning or preparing for when the downtime comes. And when the downtime comes, don't, you know, worry or get depressed over it because that time will pass as well. So that is my great advice. I'm very insightful and I love the conversation. Very inspirational. And thank you very much. So if our listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way they could do that? Um, you know, you can always reach us out via our LinkedIn, um, profile, uh, and also via our website, uh, as well, all the, um, you know, uh, modes of connecting with us are there. Um, you can visit us at, uh, you know, iSynergyGroup. com. Um, and, uh, if you do want to get in touch with us, uh, just, uh, send us a message via there. And if you want to get in touch with me in person, I've got a LinkedIn page. Uh, just drop me a line there and I'm happy to connect. Perfect. Thanks, Saad. Thank you very much. Really appreciate your time. Thank you, Sumit. Pleasure to be here.