Inclusivity in Historic Preservation: Telling the Full Story

It’s National Preservation Month, and this year, we celebrate the importance of some of the lesser-known stories of underserved communities. Our historic preservation specialists Vance Kelley, Nancy Goldenberg, and Julia Manglitz join this episode to share stories about some of the special places they’ve worked on that define our history. From a community center built by Chinese pioneers to a church pastored by Oliver Brown of Brown v. Board of Education, buildings are amazing recordkeepers of our past. When taken care of, their structures and their stories can last far into the future. 

Learn more about the projects and resources referenced in this episode:

• St. Marks AME Church Restoration
• Rio Vista Community Center Rehabilitation
• The University of Texas at El Paso documentary about the braceros
• Bing Kong Tong Rehabilitation
• Manzanar Guard Tower Reconstruction
• Manzanar Photography by Toyo Miyatake

TreanorHL is a national architecture, planning, and design firm located in the United States. The company holds a firm belief in sharing resources and insights with professionals, clients, and building users to shape the space we use to live and grow as people. For more information, visit treanorhl.com.

Chapters

• 5:34 Bing Kong Tong
• 13:22 Rio Vista Community Center
• 24:20 Manzanar Guard Tower
• 27:56 St. Mark's AME Church

Transcript

Megan Brock  00:01
Welcome to TreanorHL Talks, a podcast about architecture planning and design trends as well as current events and noteworthy topics in the field. I am your host, Megan Brock introducing today's topic: inclusivity in the practice of historic preservation. May is National Preservation month, and we wanted to tell the full story of some of the special places that we've worked on for underserved communities. TreanorHL provides planning and architectural design services for historic preservation projects, including restoration, rehabilitation, and adaptive reuse. Our preservation specialists are also great storytellers because of the nature of the work that they do. So to talk more about these stories and their role in our shared history, I am joined today by TreanorHL Historic Preservation specialists Vance Kelly, Nancy Goldenberg, and Julia Manglitz. Please introduce yourselves and your roles at TreanorHL.

Vance Kelley  01:04
I'm Vance Kelly. I'm a principal within our Historic Preservation studio.

Julia Manglitz  01:10
And I'm Julia Mathias Manglitz. I'm an associate principal and an architect with the Historic Preservation studio.

Nancy Goldenberg  01:18
And I am Nancy Goldenberg. I am also an architect and architectural historian, also principal of the preservation studio.

Megan Brock  01:29
Thank you for joining me today, everyone. We wanted to highlight some of the stories in our history told through buildings that are not often heard by others. I wanted to ask you all what the importance of doing this is for you, personally, and for you professionally and for those communities?

Vance Kelley  01:47
Well, I believe that historic preservation is not about freezing time, it's not about stopping change, it really is about acknowledging and understanding our past. So that as we move forward as a society, we move forward in the right direction. And that's really why we do what we do. I believe history does repeat itself. And so it's so important for all stories, even the difficult stories, be told, so that we don't forget about what has happened in the past. And we certainly don't want to repeat the worst part of American history. And so I really do believe that as we're working with clients, and helping them tell their stories, we need to tell all the stories, not just the ones that make you feel good.

Nancy Goldenberg  02:40
Yeah, and also, so often when you think of historic preservation or when the layperson thinks of historic preservation, they think of preserving or freezing in time, these iconic monuments, you know, whether they're big churches or fancy government buildings, but it's, you know, history and architectural history is a lot more than just these big iconic government buildings. There's, there's, you know, it's expansive. There's, there's the less told stories in our history that are part of our history and part of our past and will part of our present will continue to be part of our future. So it's important to get that understanding.

Julia Manglitz  03:26
One of the very first preservation projects I was involved in was a building that is unremarkable in many ways. So a lot of people and what hit me about that project still hits me every time we work with smaller sites, or sites that are a part of history, that's not as well acknowledged. It's important not just to tell the whole story. But it's important in a way of culturally saying, I see you. It's hard to become something that you don't have a good role model for. And it's hard to see something that you won't acknowledge exists in the landscape. And when we're working on sites that have to do with difficult stories that people don't always want to tell or don't always want to listen to, or we're working with folks who have, you know, been historically underrepresented. It's a way of acknowledging that they are a part of our history, our collective history, and that it matters and that telling their story matters.

Vance Kelley  04:32
Yeah, I agree with Julia, you know, your history, your story really is important. And there shouldn't be any segment of the population that should ever be marginalized or pushed aside. When I look at America, we were great because we really are a melting pot of people and their cultures. And I would certainly recommend to everybody who's interested in historic preservation that you embrace what you have, preserve what still physically exists, so that it's easier for others to understand your story. Appreciate your history.

Megan Brock  05:10
Love it, there's really something about having a place that you can be present in that you can feel. If you get rid of those places, you're getting rid of the evidence that this happened, right? It can be so easily taken out of a textbook or rewritten, but it's so much more difficult to take a foundation off of the earth. So in that spirit, let's begin to cover some of these projects and stories. First, let's talk about Bing Kong Tong, which is a meeting hall in Isleton, California, Nancy, you lead this project, so would you like to share?

Nancy Goldenberg  05:43
Okay, this is a structure that was built in 1926, in Isleton, California, which is located on the Sacramento River Delta. The town at the time had a large Chinese population, many of whom were working in nearby fruit canning factories, you know, and at the time, there was the Chinese community was not very well integrated into American society, there were things like the Chinese Exclusion Act. So the Chinese who were here in the U.S. created these tongs or community centers to provide them with the sense of community, with services and so, so in 1926, they built Bing Kong Tong as one of these tongs or community centers, which offered language, you know, Chinese language schools and community service social services for the Chinese citizens of Isleton, and the building serve that purpose until about 1970, when the Chinese community waned really, and the building sat vacant for many years. 

Nancy Goldenberg  06:58 
We were approached by a local group of preservation-minded local groups in the early 2000s. That time, I think there was one Chinese American who was involved with the project. But mainly they were just local, Isleton citizens who wanted to see something good happen with this building. But the problem was, they had no funds. So our first our first task was to help them with grant writing to get the money that was needed, and also figure out what was needed for the project. Because they had, they knew they wanted to restore the building, they wanted to maintain it as a community as a community center and a small history museum, but didn't really know what that would entail. So we worked with the community over a good 20 years to get the funding first, and to help them with the project. And then one, we have to face the project so that it could be afforded in chunks as the money came in. And so we the project got a California Preservation Foundation award in 2018. And that was basically for the exterior phase of the project and the interior phase, which was just completed last year.

Megan Brock  08:16
So what were some of the renovations that needed to be done? What conditions did you find when you first visited that site?

Nancy Goldenberg  08:27
The building was one of the worst buildings that I've ever seen condition-wise, you know, I've been working in this field for a long time. And this one was really on life support. It was shored on the interior, it was racking, it was leaning over, but it had been shored up on the interior so that it wouldn't completely collapse. It had pigeons living in the in the attic. And so the ceiling on the second floor had so much bird dung that it was about to collapse. It was really sagging. There were bees living in the in the walls, there were actually dead pigeons on the second floor. In fact, one of the last times that I went into the building before it before it was restored, I nearly threw up when I went upstairs, it was just so nasty. It was really horrible. So it was but you know, on the other hand, the building was right. It had a very prominent location on Main Street in this little town. So it was it was this real eyesore that, you know, I was only visiting from time-to-time as an architect, but for the people who lived there day-to-day, it was very depressing. So of course the challenge of the project was that they had they had this real derelict building, but they had absolutely no money. So I really commend the community for persevering with this not just demolishing the building which the decision could have easily gone in that direction given the condition of the building. But it was important to the community to preserve not only the building, but the history that that it embodied. And they did. They did that which was really, really inspiring. And even before the interior was renovated after we did the seismic upgrade and restored the exterior, it started to have a domino effect on the on the town and adjacent nearby buildings started to get fixed up, too. So it made a big difference to this, this little community.

Megan Brock  10:38
When you worked with a community, like you said, Nancy, for so long to get funding, what were some of those remarks that you heard? Did anything stick with you?

Nancy Goldenberg  10:49
They were, yeah, I mean, at first. At first, the people had really big hearts, but they had no, they didn't really have an understanding of what this would entail, which I think, and I think if they did, they probably would never have taken on the project. But they were they were just some really wonderful people. And there was one couple who was leading the charge for a while. And they also were amateur winemakers. So whenever we would come up to do field work, we'd come back with a couple bottles of wine, which is awesome, which was always very nice. And it was good wine too. And initially, there was a group that was they were some fraternal organization, and but they were they were also incredibly involved in the history of the community. So they were they were some of the first people that I met. But it you know, it's this little town out in the middle of nowhere. And it's a lot different from working with urban dwellers. I would say people seem to have stronger personalities. Eventually, what really helped the project was there was a semi-retired man who had been a developer. He was and he had moved, he and his wife moved to the community. And he really took on the project. And he was someone with a professional background in getting projects done. So that was that was the real turning point for Bing Kong Tong getting finished.

Megan Brock  12:19
So how is the community planning to use that building moving forward?

Nancy Goldenberg  12:24
I did communicate with one of the people just a couple of weeks ago, and they have the building open. They haven't finished populating the museum, part of it yet. They just have some exhibits hanging on the wall. But they do have a lot of artifacts that have been in storage for several years that eventually will go back and become museum exhibits. I also interviewed as part of as part of the project I actually interviewed a gentleman who had, he was a kid when, during the heyday of Isleton, and his you know, he was actually he used the building when it was the Bing Kong Tong. So he had some good stories, too.

Megan Brock  13:04
I would love to hear their side of this story. Maybe we can follow up next time. Well, thank you, Nancy, for sharing. That's really incredible that the community stepped up to preserve that history. So kudos to them. And kudos to everyone really, who benefits from that. So we're going to shift gears a bit and move south from Isleton, California to Socorro, Texas. They're in Socorro sits Rio Vista, which is the last remaining bracero processing center from the World War II era. So Vance and Julia, you are both involved in this project. So I'll let you tell us all about it.

Vance Kelley  13:42
So the Rio Vista Community Center, which is located in Socorro, Texas, has really one of the most unique stories to tell that I've ever been a part of. The story is a little bit difficult to tell because of the fact that so many lives, while the development started as part of El Paso County's poor farm program, really, its unique significance comes from its association with the bracero labor program that was established during World War II. As you can imagine, Americans were all fighting in the war. And there was a national, I call it a labor crisis in the United States. And what that resulted in was the U.S. and Mexican governments got together and they developed a labor agreement. And so that agreement allowed, I think it was between 1942 and 1964. Approximately four and a half million Mexican workers were hired in order to fill the agricultural labor needs that we had in the United States. Rio Vista was one of only five of the bracero processing centers along the Mexican border and during its peak, I think it was 1,500 men at one time were contracted by the government at Rio Vista, where they were housed and processed and fed while they awaited their assignment on where they would go in the United States. 

Vance Kelley  15:18
Rio Vista really is one of the only remaining facilities that is intact that can represent the program and really tell the story. And while this program may seem to be a wonderful opportunity for all involved, how those men were processed, how they were treated, really is part of the story that needs to be shared with everybody. It's a unique facility. It's a 14 acre site. It's located about 10 miles south of the city of El Paso. The City of Socorro does own 15 of the 18 buildings within this historic district. 12 are adobe, only five are currently occupied, and truthfully, most are really in very deteriorated condition. Some are even in danger of partial collapse. So there's a real need for the preservation of the buildings, the city only uses five, they use it for city administration offices, for community center type activities as well. They have social service programs, elderly programs, GED classes, and some health classes as well. The city, as part of this program, certainly or as part of this project, I should say, they've really thought long and hard about how it can and should be used. So they're talking about a public library, they're talking about a health clinic, they're talking about classroom facilities, art facilities, a bracero museum, meeting space, and even a cafe. And so as TreanorHL was brought on to assist, we really needed to understand what kind of repairs were necessary to stabilize the buildings. And then we were given the opportunity to design each building for its new use for its complete rehab, rehabilitation and restoration. 

Vance Kelley  17:18 
A project like this has a number of challenges. It's a campus, so not only are we dealing with buildings that require substantial repair, but from a campus perspective, now we have to deal with utilities and infrastructure. And all of that is required to support each of the buildings and their use. Funding is tight, funding is a struggle. And so the City of Socorro really does have to look at this project as being completed in phases. So how you prioritize that work which of the buildings you bring online, first, all that has to be coordinated and, and agreed to in a logical way. And so as TreanorHL became involved, we looked at the conditions of each of the buildings, we are in the process of developing them a master plan, we're completing or preparing a package that will address the immediate stabilization, exterior stabilization. Structural stabilization of each of the buildings is a package that can be looked at as priorities and then a separate package that deals with the rehabilitation of each of these historic buildings.

Julia Manglitz  18:33
So for Rio Vista, some of the layers of history that are available on that site, are really relevant to a lot of the stories that we are hearing in the news about immigration, particularly across the southern border. The history of most of the southwest of the United States is fairly unique and somewhat different than the stories that you hear on the eastern seaboard. And one of the things that's become evident working there is that there are a lot of families who are cross border families and have been for generations. And the geopolitical border that we recognize today is really a very young border in the history of human and habitation of that part of the continent. And I think one of the most interesting illustrations of that and, and maybe illustrations of what happens when you use a river as a political border line, is that if there had not been this grand flood in the 1820s or 40s, the city of Socorro, that land that the Rio Vista sits on, would actually be on the Mexican side of the border. And the longer you inhabit this area of Texas the more of those stories that you hear and you start to understand that it's not just been a fluid border because of, you know, indigenous presence and Spanish colonial presence, but also just because of mother nature. And I think when you start to understand that deeper history, your nuanced understanding of the political tensions that are going on today changes.

Julia Manglitz  20:24 
And this gets back to why I think those are important stories to tell. The community really needs to preserve this history, because they understand and value how unique it is. But a lot of places that have this type of history also really struggle with condition problems, money that has never been there to maintain the facilities. And a lot of those facilities were built as inexpensively as possible. You know, while it started off as an asset for El Paso County as a poor farm, it wasn't something they wanted to sink a whole lot of money into, especially not during the Depression. So a lot of the sites that we deal with, were built inexpensively at the time, and maybe not as high quality as some other places. And they typically suffer more deterioration from lack of maintenance. And they also tend to suffer sometimes more interventions that are sometimes done with the best of intentions, but also, not always with the respect that those facilities need, or that the building fabric needs. So it presents some unique challenges about what you keep and what you don't keep. Because some of those changes and evolutions are also part of the story of the building and the place and the economic realities that have been present and impacted the community and their resources. All of their resources.

Megan Brock  21:59
Kind of like tree rings, right?

Julia Manglitz  22:03
Yes, very much like tree rings.

Megan Brock  22:07
And it's amazing how something so simple, like our geography is determined by mother nature. And that's so easily forgotten when we're considering the cultural history of a place. We think about it politically. But there are a lot of basic underlying issues that can be forgotten. So really great point, Julia.

Julia Manglitz  22:28
Well, and it's, it's continued to shift. Well, you know, it's been channelized coming through El Paso because the shifting was causing so many problems. And on my last visit to El Paso, I finally went to one of the national monuments that's been closed because of COVID. That is over a long-disputed piece of land within El Paso. That really didn't get resolved until President Johnson's administration in the 60s, it was 120-year-long land dispute between Mexico and the United States. And it was all brought on by shifting of the river. Like I said, it's a very long history that I've come to appreciate in a much different way, for listening to the stories, particularly from people whose roots go back way before the United States was a political entity. And before Texas was a political entity, it really starts to bring some of the issues into perspective. And, in a way, I think most of us who don't live in that area probably don't understand them the way we should, because we lack that nuance in our understanding.

Vance Kelley  23:42
Yeah, I love the fact that there's been an effort to really reach out to the men and the families who went through this program. And so there's really good documentary information out there about the story from the people who actually lived it, experienced it, and I think that is so valuable to be able to collect that well while they're still alive.

Megan Brock  24:06
And as Vance mentioned, there is a great short documentary about the braceros called Voices From the Border by the University of Texas at El Paso. I will share a link in the show notes. The next story we're sharing today takes us from Texas back over to Southern California, where during the World War II era, Japanese immigrants and citizens were detained in a military-style camp called the Manzanar War Relocation Center. Nancy, would you like to share some more about this project?

Nancy Goldenberg  24:38
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Manzanar is located in the desert in Southern California's Owens Valley and it was one of 10 World War II Japanese internment camps, and by July of 1942, it had 10,000 inmates they were forced to remain there until November of 1945. But beginning around 1969, there was a grassroots movements started within the Japanese-American community to raise awareness about Manzanar, as well as some of the other internment camps. In 1992. Manzanar became a National Historic Site. And by being a National Historic Site, The NPS became the steward. And our firm was commissioned to reconstruct one of eight guard towers in the early 2000s. And reconstruction occurred in 2005. 

Nancy Goldenberg  25:34 
So the Japanese American group, these were survivors of the internment, and their children. They wanted a physical remnant of the camp, they had a strong desire to reconstruct one of these eight guard towers as a potent symbol, showing the site's presence and also visually evoking wartime events. And then it was a challenge because there was only fragmentary information and to do a reconstruction of that you really needed to be accurate. Otherwise, it's false historicism. So that was the biggest challenge to do an accurate reconstruction with very little information. But it required a forensic approach. There were some fragments of the building that still existed. There were concrete foundation pads on the site. There were some tower fragments that were scattered around. But I guess one of the most important pieces of evidence were these excellent photographers by excellent photographs by Toyo Miyatake, who was a professional photographer, who was one of the internees, but he actually documented the site. So there were those photographs. And there were also original army specifications, which were helpful in identifying the materials. So with those, those bits of information, you were able to do an accurate reconstruction. So this was an important project. It preserves an important story of our history, but it's also one of the less positive ones. And this is one of the one of the stories that we hope to learn from so that in the future, similar events don't take place.

Megan Brock  27:22
For our listeners, we'll be adding a link to the show notes of some of the photography taken while the camp was in operation. I really encourage you to study these photographs and just imagine what it would have been like to have your home and family and really your entire life uprooted like this. There is a photo that really stuck out to me, and the caption simply says "Baby with Measles." I'm not sure how much more I really need to say about that, because it's obviously kind of hard to look at and think about, but really, the mother's face says it all. Okay, so we have one more story to share today. And this one takes us all the way from California to Kansas. While the main story here is more well-known, not everyone knows where it began at a small church in Topeka, Kansas,  called St. Mark's AME Church. Vance, take it away.

Vance Kelley  28:14
St. Mark's AME Church is a small building. It's located on the north side of the river in an economically challenged neighborhood in Topeka, Kansas. So the question is what makes this place and its history so important? And St. Mark's is listed on the National Register of Historic Places for both criterion A and B, not for its architectural significance, which is why many properties are actually listed. So criteria A requires that a property must be associated with an event that has made a significant contribution to our broad history. And criterion B requires that a property be associated with the lives of persons who are significant in our past. And so who was that person? What was the event that makes this little church significant in our history? Most people across the United States certainly have heard about, understand, the importance of the Supreme Court case of Brown v. Topeka Board of Education. On May 17 of 1954, the Supreme Court determined at that time that separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. So separate but equal was not constitutional. And the lead plaintiff in that case was Reverend Oliver Brown. And during the time of that court case, he was made a pastor and asked to lead the St. Mark's AME congregation in North Topeka. Therefore, this little church with a small congregation, really does help represent an important part of Topeka's role and the African-American civil rights struggle in the United States.

Vance Kelley  30:00 
And of course, the church and the AME Church in general, and Topeka goes back much, much farther in time than the Brown v. Topeka Board of Education history. It begins with the Exodusters who moved to Kansas after the Civil War. And so looking back through their history, they're still an active congregation. And the church is certainly looking for ways to make sure that its history won't be forgotten, and its ministry can continue to thrive and grow. Reverend Shirley Heermance reached out the TreanorHL just to discuss what the impact would be of listing the church on the National Register of Historic Places, what does it mean to be on the register, are there advantages, are there disadvantages, and after that discussion TreanorHL, we volunteered to help them pursue a new grant through a new program through the National Park Service. As part of that grant, we had to first determine whether the building was significant. And so we had to work with the State Historical Society, this State Historic Preservation Office in Topeka, we had to research and write and pull together the history to show that it was even eligible to participate in in this program. National Park Service had a program that was called the American African American civil rights grant program. And so we did that then, of course, along with trying to prepare the application for the grant, you have to understand the condition of the building, what the issues are, what the priorities are, what the cost might be. And then we helped put all of that into the required form, and send it off. 

Vance Kelley  31:52 
And lo and behold, this project was selected as one of the first in that first round of grants. And you can imagine a small congregation with not many resources to be to be able to receive a grant that was going to help them take care of issues that the building certainly had. And so right now, we're working with them to finish up the project. And hopefully, very shortly, they'll be able to move back into their church, where the structural issues are resolved, the building will be weathertight, that the historic finishes and features have been restored so that they can continue their ministry at the same time as telling the important story that they have associated with civil rights in America. So it's a pretty incredible story that needs to be told. I don't think a lot of people understand what resources exist in Topeka, Kansas when it comes to civil rights. In this list, little church is just part of the story.

Megan Brock  32:58
That's a great point Vance, once something really becomes a historical landmark, some of the smaller stories that contribute to its significance can really become lost. It doesn't make them any less significant, but it does make them important to tell.

Vance Kelley  33:12
Yeah, I find it amazing. So you know, this was Reverend Oliver Brown's church. And, you know, he served during the time that they wanted him there. And then they did ask him to move on to a church in Missouri. And after he passed away, though, the family moved back to Topeka. And Linda Brown, who, who was the child who was denied access to summer school continued to be a member of the church. In fact, she was the pianist or organist for the church, up until nearly the time she passed away. So even though we think about history, even back in the 50s, and 60s, Linda Brown is associated with this church was up until the 2000s. So it's pretty incredible, long, long connection that the family had with the church.

Julia Manglitz  34:09
And, and the Brown v. Board was an umbrella. It was Brown v. Board et. al. So it wasn't just the Topeka community. It was a collection of similar lawsuits from other areas of the country. Brown wound up at the top because they did them alphabetically. So if there had been a Abernathy, we wouldn't call it Brown v. Board. And I've and I think that's the other thing is that similar to what Topeka has, all of these other places have structures and stories similar to the ones in Topeka, that are probably overlooked in their communities as well.

Vance Kelley  34:56
Yeah, Julia, I was gonna add on. I've heard that comment before were if there had been last name that start with A, Brown might not have been the lead plaintiff. But when you get in and look at what the NAACP was trying to accomplish, Topeka was unique in that the schools were segregated up until the time of high school. And then they, they were brought together. That the school system for African Americans was of high quality. It was good schools with really good teachers taught by African American school teachers. And, and so it's not as if there was a discrepancy or a difference between the quality of building or quality of education. And I think that was the point that they were trying to convey, or they were needing the courts to either confirm or reaffirm whether separate was equal, or whether separate was inherently unequal. And I think that's why the Topeka case with Reverend Oliver Brown and the school system is why it actually was the lead project to be brought forward.

Julia Manglitz  36:17
Yeah, I, when the site first opened, my in-laws came, and my father-in-law had grown up in Washington, DC. And out of him attending the museum with us, tumbles all of these stories from his childhood growing up in a very segregated Washington DC, that my husband had never heard that some of which his wife had never heard him tell. Because he was 17, I think, right at the end of World War II. So he was very much a an adult at the time that a lot of this was going on. And his family were, his parents, particularly were very racist. But he had by this time, gone to university, I think he was probably had his master's degree at this point, and had done some work down in South America. So his experience in the world had been much broader than his parents and his ideas had shifted significantly from where he, you know, from what he was brought up in. So it was really interesting to suddenly realize that he had some connection to this, too.

Megan Brock  37:29
Yes, go out and see places view the world through another lens. Be open to understanding someone else's reality. So I want to wrap us up with a few questions to this group. And for you, the listeners to consider. What do the stories about our past tell us about our future?

Nancy Goldenberg  37:51
One of the things I've noticed lately is this attempt to cancel history to erase it or at least not to tell it. And so by having these physical representations of what happened, you can't really deny that history as easily. So I think that's an important point in preserving this type of building. I'm thinking of Holocaust deniers, you know, because they, they weren't there, they didn't experience it. So maybe this is all made up. But you know, we have these, these, you know, in Germany, they preserved these camps. So it's a lot harder to deny something when you have a physical relic of that.

Julia Manglitz  38:35
And I think there's a distinction between acknowledging and celebrating. You know, when we talk about cancel culture, I think a lot of folks will cite all of the monuments that were moved from Richmond. But that was celebrating a particular kind of history. And I do think there's a fine line there. And I think it's open for discussion and different thoughts, depending on what your background and your history are. But I think we need to acknowledge all of our history. And I think I hope that by making sure that people and places whose history have not typically been told and not typically been put in history books, I hope that by trying to shine a light on those that changes, and I hope that that leads to a more inclusive future, where we all recognize and respect each other's backgrounds and how we have all contributed to making this country what it is.

Vance Kelley  39:41
And I really do think it's because of that thought, is why Rio Vista is so important. Because if there are no other sites or locations that can help tell the story that you can experience the location, it does make it real. And it's, it's really important for us to be able to show people that this is what happened. And this is how it worked. And this is how people were treated.

Megan Brock  40:14
Yeah, the more the dialogue can happen, the more our children and then our children's children can grow up with an inclusive experience. And it's not just strange to them, they don't really have to adapt. It's just the way the world is. Great thoughts, everyone. So I have one more question. And this is to help our clients when they are trying to preserve a building with historical significance. What is important for them to know going into a project like that?

Vance Kelley  40:43
Well I'll start. Oftentimes, historic preservation, I think, is seen as a somewhat elite undertaking. And that when you look at the history books, or you look at the properties that are being preserved, often times they are the most grand building most elaborate, large in scale. And I and I would tell those that are trying to make a decision on whether what they have is important or not, that your history and your story is just as important as any other segment of the population, that you should embrace what you have, and be proud of what you have. And in order to tell that story, you do need to have that physical representation of what has occurred in the past. And so don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to be proud of your history and to work towards preserving it so that others can learn from you.

Julia Manglitz  42:02
I think maybe one of the most important things for folks to realize, and Nancy kind of touched on this is that it is a journey. And it's it doesn't happen overnight, there are going to be setbacks. But you have to persevere and work through those and not lose sight of how important giving this to future generations is. You have to look at it as stewardship that you request from previous generations, and that you owe it in a way to the next generation. And that that comes with responsibility to make the best decisions that you can and the time and the space and what the resources that you have. And to find, find good people to work with, and trust them to help guide your decision-making processes that it's a team effort.

Megan Brock  43:01
Julia, that's a great point. It's good to remember that yes, preservation is hard. It can seem daunting when you feel responsible for so much, and there are so many details to consider. But living through the actual time period was harder. So we owe it to them to take care of these places. So their story isn't lost and perhaps more importantly, not repeated. Thank you for joining me today everyone. We've been sharing information about several of the projects and resources mentioned in this episode on our social media all throughout the month, so be sure to check that out and see some images of these amazing buildings and learn more about them. You can also visit the National Trust for Historic Preservation's website, savingplaces.org, for more information about National Preservation Month and some of the nation's influential but lesser-known stories. While it lasts for the month of May, it's something that we have a passion for year-round. See episode notes or visit treanorhl.com To learn more about how we've helped our clients with historic space solutions that fit their unique needs. Until next time, thank you for joining us on this episode of TreanorHL Talks. TreanorHL is a national architecture planning and design firm located in the United States. The company holds a firm belief in sharing resources and insights with professionals, clients, and building users to shape the space we use to live and grow as people. For more information visit treanorhl.com That's t-r-e-a-n-o-r-h-l.co