Why We Love Historic Preservation

May is National Preservation Month, and we wanted to celebrate the importance of historic places and the heritage of these places and spaces that define our history and shape our future. TreanorHL provides planning and architectural design services for historic preservation projects—including restoration, rehabilitation and adaptive reuse. Our preservation specialists love what they do and go above and beyond to make sure historically significant buildings serve well into the future. 

To talk more about why we love historic preservation and what it means to us, we caught up with Vance Kelley, Nancy Goldenberg, Kim Butt, Joy Coleman, and Julia Manglitz from TreanorHL’s Historic Preservation studio. 

Learn more about projects referenced in this episode:

• Kansas Statehouse
• St. Marks AME Church Restoration
• Stanley Mosk Library & Courts Rehabilitation

TreanorHL is a national architecture, planning, and design firm located in the United States. The company holds a firm belief in sharing resources and insights with professionals, clients, and building users to shape the space we use to live and grow as people. For more information, visit treanorhl.com.

Transcript

Megan Brock: 0:01

Welcome to TreanorHL talks, a podcast about architecture, planning and design trends as well as current events and noteworthy topics in the field. I'm your host, Megan Brock, introducing today's topic, why we love historic preservation. May is National Preservation month and we wanted to celebrate the importance of historic places and the heritage of these places and spaces that define our history and shape our future. TreanorHL provides planning and architectural design services for historic preservation projects, including restoration, rehabilitation and adaptive reuse. Our preservation specialists love what they do, and they go above and beyond to make sure of historically significant buildings serve well into the future. To talk more about why we love historic preservation and what it means to us. I am joined today by Joy Coleman, Kim Butt, Julia Manglitz, Vance Kelley, and Nancy Goldenberg. Please introduce yourselves and your role at TreanorHL.

Joy Coleman: 0:59

I'm Joy Coleman, and I'm a principal at TreanorHL. I'm a preservation architect as well, and work in our historic preservation group.

Kim Butt: 1:08

I'm Kim Butt, I'm a preservation architect and architectural historian and principal in our preservation studio.

Julia Manglitz: 1:17

And I'm Julia Manglitz. I'm a preservation architect, and I am an associate principal in our preservation studio.

Vance Kelley: 1:24

I'm Vance Kelley, I lead our historic preservation studio at TreanorHL. In addition to this, I serve as a principal in charge and architect of record for many of the projects that our studio works on with our different clients.

Nancy Goldenberg: 1:38

And I am Nancy Goldenberg. I am also a principal in TreanorHL's preservation studio. In addition to being an architect, I am also an architectural historian.

Megan Brock: 1:52

Great. Thank you, everyone for joining me today. Let's go ahead and get started. So take us back to the beginning of your careers. Did you know Historic Preservation was where you wanted to focus? If not tell me how you landed in this field?

Kim Butt: 2:08

Well, I wish when I went to architecture school, I did not know if I wanted to be an architect, or if I went and I definitely didn't know what I wanted to specialize in. I just thought I'd give it a try. And then it stuck. I definitely always was one of the few people that loved the architectural history classes. My architectural history professor used to bring a riding crop to her lectures so she could hit the lectern to keep people from falling asleep. I was never one of those people that fell asleep, but it was pretty good tactic. One of my first architectural internship was in the out here in the Bay Area. One summer working for my now father in law's architecture firm. And they had a project that we were doing an accessibility survey of the Stanford campus. And which meant basically I spent my summer measuring toilets, but I had a choice of which buildings, I got to measure the toilets in. And I that was the summer that I decided I really wanted to be in the pretty historic buildings. And so from there, really, from that summer, my trajectory went toward historic buildings.

Joy Coleman: 3:21

I did not know that I wanted to be a preservation architect. I knew I wanted to be an architect in high school. And I didn't really know much about historic preservation. Throughout college, I had a few classes that we had projects that did additions to historic buildings, and I always love those. And my first job out of college was at a university campus. And like Kim just said, I always chose to work on the older buildings. And I loved going through the original drawings and looking in all the little nooks and crannies for the evidence of the past.

Julia Manglitz: 3:57

I knew that I wanted to be in historic preservation when I went into architecture schools. So while I was there, I participated in the historic american buildings survey, which was a class and a job. And it was a great first exposure to being out in the field and getting to know a historic building.

Vance Kelley: 4:20

Well, like many young architects, I really didn't know that I wanted to focus on one aspect of the architectural profession. It was shortly after graduation when I was working with my second employer that I had my "aha" moment. I was at work working late at night working on a project where the client really didn't care about architectural design. They basically wanted the largest building for the least amount of money that it would cost them. So here I was, and I had to ask myself, what was it about architecture that made me decide to go into this profession, what type of architecture do I want to be involved with for the rest of my career. And so I'm sitting there late at night, and I'm thinking back and truthfully, my first exposure to architecture was on our family vacations, we would jump in our stationwagon, and we would visit historic sights. And it was the tie between those historic buildings and the stories of the people who designed them, built them or lived there. And then the effect they had on American history. And it was at that point that I knew I would have a career in working with clients, to help them preserve their historic buildings so that others could appreciate what past generations had created for us left for us in order to appreciate. So with that decision, I really started to focus my career on learning anything and everything I could about historic buildings about historic preservation.

Nancy Goldenberg: 5:56

Well, I went to college in the early 1970s, when historic preservation as a discipline was really in its infancy. And I'm looking around, I found that I didn't like the new buildings that were being constructed at the time. And I was especially discouraged to see that the buildings that I liked, which were the older buildings were being demolished, I actually almost changed my major to music, much to my parents chagrin, however, I stuck with architecture. And I was enamored of my architectural history classes. That was the bright spot. And then during a gap year, I traveled to Europe and the east coast, and became convinced that I really did want to work with old buildings. But I eventually got my master's degree in architectural history. And my first job was with New York state. So like dance, I spent a few years working for a government agency. In my case, it was the bureau of historic sites. So we specifically worked with state historic sites, and I got a lot of experience with house museums, and also got a lot of experience with conservation.

Megan Brock: 7:14

It sounds like you were all drawn in in different scenarios, and found various ways to connect with these buildings you came in contact with. Very cool. So let's talk more about your passion for these buildings and this profession. What would you say you love the most about it?

Kim Butt: 7:31

I think my favorite thing, what I've enjoyed most, it's kind of silly, but I just love being able to explore and go into the historic buildings, I enjoyed going down to see the mechanical room or to go up in the attic and see where they're storing all the extra pieces. And I love getting to go on that behind the scenes space.

Joy Coleman: 7:53

I think the variety of different types of buildings that I get to work on and the knowledge of those before the project starts often there are projects that start on buildings that we have been kind of tracking for years. And so we know a little bit about them before the project even comes up.

Julia Manglitz: 8:13

I would agree with the points joy and Kim have made. And I'll just add that I think the thing about historic preservation that I like is that I am always learning something. I'm always learning about the building, the history associated with the building, but every project brings a different set of technical challenges. And so I'm also always learning from our consultants and from the contractors that we work with. It's just this sort of constantly expanding knowledge base, about how we interact with materials and spaces and how best to care for them. It's just it never gets old, it's never the same day.

Vance Kelley: 8:54

To me, it goes back to the connection of the stories to the buildings, you know, a building is a building until you really start to understand, you know, why it was built? Or who designed it? Or what was the purpose or what the impact that building had on on the community that it's located, that it is more than just a pile of bricks or stone. It has more to do with the people that had the vision for creating and using the buildings and I don't think you can separate the two I think they go hand in hand. As we work on a project. We try to help the clients understand the importance of that that allows them as they look at the design process of trying to capture that to build upon that story to make sure it's being told make sure make sure it's still being seen, as they then want to tell their own story of who they are and how they're using the building as well.

Nancy Goldenberg: 10:02

Well I agree with everything that Vance just said, as an architectural historian, I'm also very intrigued by the stories. And in fact, I tend to anthropomorphize buildings a lot. So they're, they become like people to me. I think the thing that I most love about this work is exploring these buildings, particularly decrepid, ones that have been sitting unused for a long time, and particularly if they still have stuff in them. Plus, you have to use all your senses when you're there. You can hear things, you can you can smell things. It's not just looking.

Vance Kelley: 10:45

I think Nancy hit on something that buildings do speak to us when Nancy and I go out to do a building site of a building that maybe it's been vacant for a long time. And like she said, we're we're trying to understand how it's changed over time. But there are all these clues around the building that she and I can can figure out as part of our role as a detective and, and so whether it's, it's the the physical remnants of material, or as you're looking for decorative paint, you can take your high powered flashlights and rake it along the wall. And you can actually tell if there's decorative paint that's been covered over time. So there's all these little tricks and tools that we know, to help capture what has changed on those buildings.

Megan Brock: 11:38

Something I like about what I'm hearing from all of you is that you're focused on buildings holistically, meaning Kim is going behind the scenes and looking at the guts of the building and how it operates. And Vance is considering how the people that inhabit the space have added to or defined its history. It's interesting to get such a rounded perspective out of what you do as building detectives in a word. Tell me about a specific project that really had an impact on you.

Joy Coleman: 12:07

One of my most recent projects in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, at the Cape Girardeau Court of Common Pleas. So Cape Girardeau is one of those counties with two courthouses. There's one in Jackson and one in Cape Girardeau. And the Common Pleas courthouse is in Cape Girardeau. And on its property, there is also a Carnegie Library. That was one of the last Carnegie libraries to be built in the nation. The interesting history of the property is that the city and the county have owned the building, each has owned the building and passed it back and forth from one to the other. And each have occupied the building. So it started out, of course, as a county courthouse, and then the city moved in, and it was City Hall. And then they thought about selling it to the feds, but the Feds didn't want to buy it, they built a new building. And so the county moved back in. And now the county has moved out and the city is moving back in. And we're building an addition to connect the Courthouse with the City Hall. So it's just a interesting kind of back and forth of uses and ownership. And it doesn't always match. But now, after our project is done, the owner will match the use.

Kim Butt: 13:33

In particular, when I'm thinking of that was one of the most fascinating projects I worked on, was at San Quentin Prison here in the Bay Area, and that we had to do a historic structures report on the oldest building there. And it was actually five buildings and one that were all stuck together they just added on. And the oldest part of the building was kind of a dungeon like structure made with these really thick stones. And the history of that was that the prisoners originally, they stuck them out on a ship in the bay. And then during the day, they had to come on land and quarry the stone and build the first jail. But then they got to go sit in after that, which seemed pretty intense. That was a fascinating history and a fascinating project. Because I mean, just being that I had to go on site at San Quentin sounded, you know, pretty tough and exciting. It was, you know, we were with the guard the whole time. And we were in areas where there were no people that at least I could say, you know, I've worked at San Quentin now.

Nancy Goldenberg: 14:49

And I'm going to tell you about Apple two at the Nevada Test Site. That's probably the strangest thing that I've worked on and also pretty interesting an apple two was a project in the mid 50s. It was a series of residential type structures that were constructed in the desert. They were populated with mannequins and cheap furniture it was they were made to mimic the average American house. And then they were blown up. And you know, they had a lot of cameras in place, and so that, so afterwards, the scientists could determine how much damage each building received, the ones that were further away from ground zero survived. And so the two that we that we worked on were, were the furthest away, and they were still standing, although damaged by the blast. And I think they were also looking at different construction pipes to see what could resist a nuclear explosion better. So part of it was was meant to inform future building codes, and part of it was to see what happened to the common contents of a building in a nuclear explosion. And I think the main point of the project was chiar. This was heavily publicized and they wanted, I think they wanted to show the public that nuclear blast could be survivable, even though really, it wouldn't but, but there was a big PR component of the project.

Julia Manglitz: 16:22

The catalog of interesting site visits is long. I don't know being in 40 mile an hour wind on the south face of the Oklahoma state Capitol, and 150 foot lift, also being on wind, and 180 foot lift at an old psychiatric hospital in Topeka. A lot of my interesting field stories have to do with being up somewhere really high. And I'm actually afraid of heights. So it's always a challenge. You know, there was the field investigation for the tower at Fort Leavenworth, which was really scary. That was a crane basket. And then we wound up having to do that for the statehouse in Topeka, and did it again, for another building in Topeka. I think maybe, for me, the most fascinating history or project that I worked on probably was the State Capitol in Topeka, Kansas State House, that building is really huge and amazing and ornate. And it always blows me away. When I think about that building. And think about what Kansas looked like when they set out to build that building. You know, a lot of people were living in soddies and log cabins and dugouts, for them to have the audacity and vision to say we want a capital that is this large in this grand, I think, is really something and I think it really speaks to a spirit of the times and a spirit of the people of the state. To see that play out. It took 37 years to build it originally. So it was a it was a long haul. And because it was such a long haul. And there were so many architects and so many builders involved, it all looks like one big building now. But when you really focus in on the details, you can start to discern the different eras of construction and the different hands that made it and how technology changed over those 37 years about how we build buildings. So to me that that's one that's just fascinating on so many levels, and then there's just so much history.

Vance Kelley: 18:26

You know, every project that we worked on, certainly has a story behind it. And usually the history is, is what adds to the interest in the project. But I think one of the projects that really did influence me influenced me more than others was probably the opportunity to work on the preservation and restoration of the Kansas State House. And, you know, while the buildings is extremely important to the state, you also have to remember what our country had just gone through Kansas was brought on as the 34th state in the union, it was brought on as a free state, not as a slave state and the civil war was going on in started in 1861. And after the war is when Kansas decided that they were going to build their new capitol. I'd like many states who who built their state houses or capitol buildings after the Civil War. Many of them really looked to the US Capitol as a design inspiration. And I think they did this. Yes, partially because of the architectural design of it. But you also have to remember back during the Civil War is when they were building the dome on the US Capitol. So here we are in the middle of the Civil War. Construction is going on. You have members of Congress just wanting to stop construction, saying you know look, we have a war to fight, we have dollars that shouldn't be spent on this. And and if it wasn't for Abraham Lincoln who said, No, you have to understand that capital is a is a temple of democracy, it's a symbol of democracy and all these young men that are coming from surrounding states that are traveling through Washington, DC in order to go fight the war, they need to have a symbol, they need to understand that the union is strong. And that's it's continuing. And when you remember that story about a temple of democracy, and then you think about the states that built their capitol buildings after the Civil War, it is because it is such an important symbol. It's not just a building. And, and it's not a building that we should look to just because of its architecture, but it is the idea that was created, it's at Temple of democracy. And to think in Kansas, they built that in the in the middle of a prairie, you know, it's pretty incredible.

Megan Brock: 21:02

So these places are historical and important to us because of what they symbolize and how they provide evidence of the past in this country. Currently, there's a lot of dialogue about national symbols and what they represent, drawing some concern about memorializing the dark parts of our past. I'd like to get your input on what you've been hearing within the preservation community and how you see this changing in the future.

Vance Kelley: 21:27

I do think that that historic architecture as symbols are a reality of the situation, I'm heavily involved with the National Trust for Historic Preservation. And, and back when there was the initial discussion of should we be eliminating or removing the statues that are on the grounds of courthouses or restate houses. And it's a difficult discussion, but it's a discussion that needs to occur. And I think that's what the National Trust was trying to say, is we cannot hide what happened has happened in the past and, and maybe it's best not for us necessarily to remove what's there. But to make sure that we are telling the full story, making sure that we are telling the other side of the story. And that doesn't certainly does not happen. Historically. The story is told by the Victor and not those that are oppressed. And my example of being able to work on on a state house or a capitol building certainly resonated with me when I saw the events that happened in Washington DC and the storming of the US Capitol, that here is this sacred temple of democracy or I and many others see is sacred and, and to see it being attacked in that way, certainly brought back concerns that we have and concerns of how things are divisive right now. And we in architecture, probably are more aware of it in historic architecture, because of the stories that many of these sites have. And some are difficult histories and others are, are really good histories. Were helping the congregation of St. Mark's AME Church in Topeka, Kansas, a small black congregation that has received some federal dollars and and why is this church significant? Well, it's because Reverend Oliver Brown was the pastor of this church. And Reverend Oliver Brown was one of the plaintiffs in Brown versus speak of Board of Education, the historic Civil Rights legislation that changed not only education in the US, but also across the world. And as another symbol of what can happen, and the need for these stories to be told, and the need for people to be able to experience the sights to me, is extremely important. Because if we're not careful, history can often repeat itself and repeat itself in a in a negative way.

Nancy Goldenberg: 24:15

Yeah, and I think one of the reasons for preserving the more embarrassing or the negative aspects of our history, as Van said, it's so that we don't repeat them but but there's a lot of denial these days, about events even having happened and I'm thinking of people that deny the Holocaust, for example, if you keep the physical relics of those stories, then there's a physical monument. There's something that says yes, this really did happen. It's not something that we like it's not a good thing, but you can't deny it because here's here's the physical manifestation of what happened. That's one of the one of the reasons that I think preservation at the Nevada Test Site is important because it shows us that, yeah, we had a cold war, we did a lot of nuclear testing. These are the relics. It's one of the reasons why remnants of the Berlin Wall were maintained, so that you can preserve that history. And hopefully, you know, we don't go down that way anymore.

Julia Manglitz: 25:16

As someone who kind of got started in preservation or got her first, you know, her first project, basically in preservation working on buildings that really represent I think underrepresented groups and populations. I'm personally excited about some of the social changes, because I think it's telling a fuller story about who we are, and making a fuller story about the parts and pieces that make up a place. And I think that that's important, because I think it's important for people to see their realities and their histories reflected in their world, and recognized, I also see that there's a lot we could and should be learning. You know, the other big issue I think we're facing is, is climate change, and looking at buildings that have dealt with climate in ways that use less energy. I think there are a lot of lessons in durability, and impact on our environment that we can learn from historic buildings of all ages, especially as we start to look at the impact that carbon has on our environment, and the impact that we have on water and air quality. I think there are a lot of strategies that we've kind of forgotten about, that are embodied in some historic buildings that might prove useful in thinking about new ways to interact with our natural environment, and reusing a lot of our existing buildings, I think is going to continue to be an important aspect of mitigating our impact on the environment.

Megan Brock: 26:58

Julia brings up a great point about the connection between historic preservation and sustainability. What role does sustainability have in your work? And what are some of the challenges and opportunities you've encountered?

Vance Kelley: 27:11

Historic preservation isn't stagnant. It's not about living in the in the past, it's not about stopping progress. What we're dealing with, of course, is trying to make sure that the existing building stock has a future. And we understand that buildings have to change over time, you have to of course, look at what you have, understand what you have what's significant about what you have, and then make sure that the building can function for today's purposes. And that does mean also then making sure that what we do within that historic building takes into account the things that are so significant. And today when we're dealing with environmental issues, and, and climate change, and renewable energy, all of that can be incorporated into the work that we do in preserving historic buildings with very energy efficient systems nowadays, but when you look at it simplistically, think of recycling these buildings. And if we didn't recycle them, if we didn't reuse them, all of that energy and hard work that was put into putting those buildings together, would be lost, lost to a landfill. So when you look at the big picture, it's a pretty simple concept that historic preservation really is looking at it from an environmental impact, those are decisions that we really need to make in order to make sure that these buildings can function and meet the needs of a modern society. And those are all the details that we as design professionals are able to help influence and make sure that we're we're headed and treating the buildings in the in the right direction.

Nancy Goldenberg: 28:58

Yeah, and I'll add to that. Preservation really is sustainability. I remember going into an interview maybe 15 years ago and having having them ask, could you comment on sustainability versus preservation? And it's like, wait a minute, it's the same thing. We're recycling buildings, where we're saving all that embodied carbon, it is inherently highly sustainable. Plus, if you're just looking at sustainability as meeting LEED requirements, it gets a little dicey here because unfortunately, it doesn't really give you enough credit for whole building recycling. Gives you some but not enough on library and quartz which is a building in Sacramento. We achieved LEED silver, we did not replace the windows, they remained single glazed, we did put a low E film on those windows to cut down on the heat gain, which is certainly an issue in Sacramento, and added mecho shades, the veterans building here in San Francisco that achieved LEED Gold. And again, we kept the windows, they were not double glazed. But we achieved a high level of even with the lead system, we achieved a pretty high level. Another thing is that many historic buildings were constructed before modern mechanical systems were created. And so they have a lot of inherent qualities that help to achieve reasonable climate control without the modern mechanical system, things like ceiling fans and transom windows in corridors that that allowed cross ventilation, things like that, that were smart ways of achieving user comfort without using a lot of energy.

Unknown: 30:48

And speaking to

Joy Coleman: 30:49

that, I think that energy efficiency is important. But also, I think that setting up expectations of physical comfort is also effective. So when we're talking about the natural ventilation, the reason we've gotten away from that, in the past, you know, 50 years is that we want to control temperature and humidity in this very tight range. And I don't know that that is sustainable, or all that important. Really, if it's 95 degrees outside does it really have to be 68, inside, let's maybe shift our expectations with the temperature outside. If it's summertime, it should be warmer inside, then the temperature it is on the inside in the wintertime. Also, don't let the windows be thrown away. That's just like, you're never gonna get them back. And then new windows, you might think they're more energy efficient. But think of all that energy that was that went into making them and shipping them to the building location. And then they're going to wear out quicker than the old growth wood windows at least. And you're going to have to replace them again. So you have to think about all the energy, not just the energy the building is using right now.

Megan Brock: 32:15

Nancy seems to have hit the nail on the head here. When you're talking about sustainability and historic buildings. Ask not what you can do for the building, ask what the building can do for you. It's an interesting way to look at it. So looking forward in this field, how do you all see preservation changing?

Kim Butt: 32:33

Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is that now we have a whole new generation of buildings coming online that people are going to have to be convinced are worth preserving. And the 60s, it started with convincing people that Victorians were special and unique and needed to be saved. And now we have Mid Century Modern coming of age, you know, 50 years is that is the age right? That's, that's what we were we start looking at things which you get a lot of people saying that's not historic 50 years, please. But that that is the kind of accepted timeframe that of which you can start looking back and understanding whether something really was significant to architecture to its history, its people.

Vance Kelley: 33:22

The changes that occurred through architecture and architectural design over time, are affecting how Nancy and I and joy and Kim look at these historic buildings. Because a building built in the late 1890s was constructed of maybe similar material as buildings built in the 50s 60s or 70s, even but how it was built, and how it was constructed is a lot different. And so as we go forward, as professionals, we need to understand how building design and construction changed over time, so that we can help our clients understand what they're, they're dealing with. And so Historic Preservation isn't stagnant. Like I said before, it is something that continues to evolve because it's a reflection of our past and as the building industry change, design and architecture change. So is historic preservation.

Nancy Goldenberg: 34:26

In addition to preserving buildings that were built, after I was born, which we're starting to do, I think we'll have better diagnostic tools. We've I'm already seeing that. I mean, even in the last 10 years, we've got a lot more tools we can use when we are doing those explorations that we were just talking about sustainability will become even more important. And then another thing that that I'm beginning to see is that there will be a broader understanding of and focus on preservation of non material or non physical aspects of culture, I mean, here in San Francisco, for example, we've already got a landmark business program. And that acknowledges businesses that have been around for, you know, 20 or 30 years. They're an important part of our city. Also, not just the buildings that the businesses reside in, I've been to lectures about preserving other aspects of culture, like song and dance. And so I think that's going to, we're going to see more of that in the future.

Joy Coleman: 35:33

Things are changing, politically, the history that you have learned, and you have been told that has been invented by whoever is writing the history, you know, is that more important than another history? So I think maybe it's going to broaden the conversation and what's considered historically significant and not always tied to a physical structure or a building. But I think that the whole movement started, not only to save historic buildings, but to preserve the physical remnants of the history of a place.

Megan Brock: 36:13

Fantastic points. As we head into what's next in historic preservation, what do you want others to know? What is your advice?

Kim Butt: 36:22

I think I have what I would say to a client or any or a building owner is not to fear preservation or fear regulations. There are a lot of people just think you're not going to let me do anything with my building. I don't want to deal with a historic building. This is it's scary, it's people are going to tell me what to do. And I would just say, let's, let's look at it as an opportunity to enhance this gorgeous building or to move forward. But I just I unfortunately, see a lot of misunderstanding and fear about what it means to work with a historic building. There's a lot of really great opportunities available and working with something that's existing, it's better for our planet to use an existing building, then put it in the landfill and build new and you can learn from them. And so many ways.

Julia Manglitz: 37:19

Since they talked a lot to owners, I'm going to speak to young folks who maybe you're interested in getting into this, be curious, don't be afraid to go around and touch materials and tap on them. Read, get every take every chance you have to get your hands dirty, and understand how things are put together. Because it is so important in what we do, and trying to analyze what's there, and what's possible and what's not possible. Just never stop asking questions and being curious.

Megan Brock: 37:51

Great advice. Thank you everyone for joining me today. TreanorHL will be participating in National Preservation month all throughout May on social media, sharing some of our favorite buildings and their unique histories. See episode notes or visit treanorhl.com to learn more about how we've helped our clients with historic space solutions that fit their unique needs. Until next time, thank you for joining us on this episode of TreanorHL talks. TreanorHL is a national architecture planning and design firm located in the United States. The company holds a firm belief in sharing resources and insights with professionals clients and building users to shape the space we use to live and grow as people. For more information visit treanorhl.com That's treanorhl.com. reanrhl.com.