Deadline City's Podcast

S4: Episode 7 - #OwnVoices Observatory

March 31, 2021 Zoraida & Dhonielle Season 4 Episode 7
Deadline City's Podcast
S4: Episode 7 - #OwnVoices Observatory
Show Notes Transcript

Let's talk about #OwnVoices! This term  coined by the writer Corinne Duyvis has changed a lot about the conversation about books. We go over what it means, what it means to us, and how it can be weaponized by the publishing industry. Is #OwnVoices over? Tune in to this week's Deadline City. 

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Speaker 1:

Hello everyone.

Speaker 2:

And welcome back to deadlines sitting

Speaker 1:

Near your hosts. I'm Zurita Cardova and I'm Danielle Clayton. How are you doing Danielle? Where are we going? We are going to a strange place today. It is called the own voices observatory, and it is a controversial little tower in deadline city. And I figured we should visit it in half of this session because it was my scripts folks, telescopes, telescopes. And, uh, yeah, I think we have some things to say about it because I'm seeing it pop up in all of these book announcements and all of these publishers, weekly things and on book jackets. And it's, it's a new flavor to your, I mean, it has been

Speaker 2:

For a while, but we need to talk about it. Absolutely. I think that, um, it's something that takes up, has taken up so much of the language around books since 2015, I want to say. Um, but if you don't know what the term owned voices means, it was actually something that was coined by a white author named Corrine Davis. Um, and they actually read this in a publisher's weekly article where they said, um, that they never predicted that the hashtag would have such an impact on the publishing industry because when they first coined it, it was just a sort of like toss out book recommendations, uh, one night on Twitter, right? Like give me recommendations for books about X written by X. Right. And it's just, uh, current IVUS is, uh, an advocate, uh, and founder, I think one of the founders of disability and kid lit, um, so it was like a disability book written by a person who is disabled, um, a Latin X, a Mexican book written by somebody who is Mexican. So that's what it means. It does not mean, let me get a course novel written by an, a question. Right, exactly. And we were seeing, we were seeing a lot of that. Right. I don't like the term, to be honest, I feel like it's not, it shouldn't, it shouldn't be for it. Shouldn't be for publishing. I just think that it has been co-opted by publishers and agents and, and things like that to say, there's nothing wrong with this book. So it gets a pass. Let's not critique it. That's what I think. That's why. Okay. And that's fair. Um, you know, I think it's interesting because I love the intention of own voices. I love what it seeks to do for me as a reader. Like what you said, like I know, Oh, own voices. That means that I'm going to be getting, you know, a more authentic take on, on a thing and it should be on a community or an identity. Right. Um, which is great because then I can feel safer going into that book. And, you know, I just really think it has been twisted and used as a shortcut for publishers to Telegraph that they're doing the work and answering the call for diversity and inclusion. And I think it becomes something that is like anything, a tool to be wielded. You think that the positive outweighs the negative, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it because it's weaponized. Yeah. It's weaponized. Um, I think that, um, there are some instances where, when we're talking about like fantasy and science fiction and we're writing about a race that doesn't exist and we're like, it's an own voices race because it's like coded as XYZ. I get the intent, but I don't think that it does what people think it does. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think that, um, the intention, like if somebody were to call the Bell's own voices, all voices. So why, because it's not set in, in this world because you're beautiful. No one to fight. You it's own voices. Cause there's a black girl on the cover, but there's no themes about the black American community that are direct. Like there's no direct analog to black America. There's no direct analog to racial politics. It's just that there is a girl who was coded as black as the main character and they're shouting that out, but right. Like the term can fall apart really easily. Right. Yeah. And so I think that's, that's sort of where it there's like there's a, it breaks down for me there. And so for me, it's like problematic. When, when I wrote incendiary, it is a Spanish inspired fantasy and people call it either a lot next fantasy or an own voice is fantasy. And I'm like, it is neither of those things because I don't know who to tell you this, but Spain is in Europe. Uh, and therefore not part of Latin America. And even though, um, I have like Spanish ancestry somewhere in there. It, it's not, I don't claim to be from Spain. You know, like I don't know enough about that culture to be like, I am, I am a Spanish, do I like I'm, uh, I'm from Ecuador. And so the things that I studied about Spain and did my research on a very specific time period, I still created, I still created a fantasy that has an inspiration and a nod, but it isn't span. So like we shouldn't apply those terms to that book. Yes. And it's weird because, um, I get frustrated because the term has a great sentiment and it is such an important tool for readers to just know a little bit more about what they're getting, but it does fall apart in certain contexts. And I just haven't loved how I've seen publishers use it. And so what I mean by that is, you know, um, if you're in the industry, like we are, we always like to keep an eye on what books are coming and it's good to know who to support, like who we're getting ready to support and what to get excited about. And in this, and people are starting to put publishers, publicists, industry people hashtag own voices, author. Like I've seen that a lot hashtag own voices, author, or hashtag own voices, this book about X, Y, and Z into the pitch. And it was like, what's going on? You know what I mean? Like why, what are we trying to actually say here? And you mean to say when the author wasn't own voices? No, just in general, like, because it's going to force people to come out, come out about certain things, right. It's one thing to say hashtag own voices. This is a book about, you know what I mean, 1920s, black America, and it's by Daniel Clayton. Right. So you can infer, Oh, this is about black America. It comes from an own voices author who black, but did you time travel? I, yeah, but I mean, but it's so, so that's, that's where it gets tricky for me. Right. How, how cool is it? It's just shared identity. It's a shared identity, but what if, like, for instance, me, I, if I write, if I write a young Latin boy and I start calling that book on voices, that's a problem because I don't embody that experience. And I don't know what that experience is. Like,

Speaker 1:

Remember when you got put on hashtag on voices for leopard loss,

Speaker 2:

Because I did get put on rice less for 11th loss because it is a Latina and I am Latina. However,

Speaker 1:

However, um, because

Speaker 2:

Does the character, because Alex mortise in labyrinth loss is also bisexual. People also were like, like I still have a lot of people think I'm bisexual. I am not, I am

Speaker 1:

Painfully straight. I know it's really sad. And like, I'm sad for you. You're welcome. People put her on lists for like representation

Speaker 2:

Was never put on these lists until whatever. I, I won't go into it, but like people started putting me on these lists like recently and I'm like, why are people doing this? I have literally never, if you see if you spend like 10 seconds with me on Twitter, you'll see what a gross thirst monster I am. Um,

Speaker 1:

For muscle male muscles.

Speaker 2:

I'm not like I don't need to defend myself, but

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's in the streets. It's just

Speaker 2:

Funny because, um, it's, it's like something that I've never actually said, it's just been attributed to me without my there's nothing I can do about it. Right. Yeah. And I, I, I don't want to hurt anybody who would want to support a bisexual OwnVoices bisexual author. I don't want to hurt somebody. So like, I don't want that person to be like, feel tricked because somebody with misinformation, uh, or purposeful misinformation put me on XYZ. Right. And so that's where I feel like we get into a really dicey situation of authors having to explain or come out, right. There are some instances like recently it's getting really crazy where like authors, authors are forced to come out of the closet professionally, even if they're not out of the closet in their personal lives, which is dangerous because not every, like, we're still, we're still living in a time where like, yeah, sure. We have a lot of laws that protect people, but they're still persecuted. And there are still a lot of laws that don't. So when we get into this thing where we're forcing, like if you only want to read books by people that are out and say that their own voices that's, you know, support those people, but forcing others to come out is like, it's a little weird man.

Speaker 1:

It is. I mean, it, it feels violent, right? It feels like a forced, um, and no one should have to disclose it. It's the same thing with if you have mental illness or if you're neurotic, neurodivergent right. Like if you have other things, if you have invisible disabilities and you're not comfortable talking about them, but it is your right to privacy, it is your right to be able to have parts and aspects of your life that are private for you. What happens is that we become public figures and everyone believes that everything is public. And that the art that we make is supposed to reflect everything about us. And therefore we have to justify the things about us in order to write about them. And I think that's where we got off the rails with this term and where I'm like own voices is dead, which people hate it when I say that, but that's literally how I feel. And I feel that way because we've gone sort of down a dark rabbit hole where everything has to be justified when the original call for diversity and the call for marginalized content creators, to be able to tell their own stories was because so many people were writing cross-culturally and, and writing stories that weren't about them and doing it and being profit profitable for a long time to where, when I would write a book about a black girl, I would get rejected because they already had that book on their list written by a white woman. And so literally it wasn't to force people to justify who they are, um, at the intersections of identity, it was to make sure that we prioritized people telling stories about people that look like them, people that experience all of the special intersections. That doesn't mean that you have to come out about it. It doesn't mean like these are things that can be private, uh, I believe, but I think it's become a measuring stick. And I was reading the other day on Twitter where just a random tweet came into my feed where someone said, if it's not in your Twitter bio, then it's not true. Right. Like talking about identity, talking about who you are. And I thought, wow, there's so many things that are not in my Twitter bio that people don't know about me. Yeah. That show up in my stories. Right. And I am so frustrated and saddened by that because I'm like, okay, got a list. You know, my, my bowel disorders, my immunocompromised body from my liver tumors, my sexuality, my, you know what I mean? I've got a lot of things to list then can I put the Irish flag in there? Cause we can do my, I can put my DNA tests there. And like, I'm looking at 25% from American chattel, slavery. Thanks. British and Irish folks. You know what I mean? Like what else do you want in the bio to justify the stories that I'm telling? And it just becomes a conundrum that I think writers are foot in where for sure we're good label is used by a machine that has problems and once a quick bandaid fix and it didn't work, it fell apart.

Speaker 2:

We profit off of art. And so we are in the structure and publishing wasn't traditional publishing. Wasn't built for us initially, right? The access to books, all these things. And so the people who got to tell stories like we just, we just got used to, um, white women writing about, you know, poor kids from the other side of the tracks. We just got used to all of these stories. And then when the call for diversity happened in very loudly, in, in 2000, in the early 2000 teens, uh, the answer was like, okay, now I'm going to, I'm going to add diversity into my books, but that's where we got. That's how we got here. Right. That's how we got to this place where, um, somebody can come off the street and say, I am now. I just, I recently discovered that my grandmother was Ecuadorian. Therefore I'm going to write a story about an Ecuadorian family. And, uh, and it's going to be owned voices because X, Y, Z, right? Because of all of these reasons, are you writing a story that is true to you or are you writing story because you want to profit off of marginalization that you don't embody.

Speaker 1:

Right. And that, and that gets tricky. And there's a lot of conversation on the timeline. Like, um, I go and speak at conferences, writers conferences. And I was at one at an S C BWI before pandemic. And I had a white woman stand up and ask me a question after I've given a presentation about how I mine my own life, like what's happening because I live a very curious life. I'm very curious, like I should have a cat with nine lives should be out of here by now. Right? Like my whiskers are all burnt up. I burnt my tail because I'm very curious. And that is what populates my stories. And I was saying that I use my real life for seeds. All of the books that cake come out of a seed

Speaker 2:

For my life. Um,

Speaker 1:

Colorful characters come from my family, come from schools, all of that stuff. And after that presentation where you can tell that I write diverse books, I concept diverse books. All of those things she asks is there space for white children in publishing anymore. And I had to keep my face together and you could see that and hear the groan.

Speaker 2:

Um, and

Speaker 1:

I was so frustrated by that

Speaker 2:

Question because I wasn't

Speaker 1:

Like what makes you think after I showed you statistics? After I talked about why I do what I do, why I write, what I write, would you ever fix your mouth to ask me something so ridiculous when everything is made for you and where I'm fighting to make sure other people who look like me

Speaker 2:

Me can even get through the door. And even

Speaker 1:

I have a shot at telling a story about a character that looks like them. And then there's another layer of like, okay, so now you're through the door. Now you've got to justify why you're here, but we really have to talk about how identity politics, identity, premises, what we say we are and who we are, gets weaponized again, because of capitalism, what you brought up

Speaker 2:

Or to sell, right? Everything is for sale. So if you say, if

Speaker 1:

I say that I have a great grandmother who was letting X, um, then I can tell my publisher that as a justification and a shield from any criticism I might get for poor Latin X representation in my book, right. Or to justify my space. That's the problem I'm having because people who actually don't walk around and experience the identities that they purport to have, and who say that they have this identity premise, aren't actually living it and have seen the cracks in the system and the cracks in own voices to be able to manipulate it, to say, I might inhabit the body of this. However, I have this thing in my background. So therefore I'm going to put that forward and answer the call for, we need diverse books

Speaker 2:

And it, and I

Speaker 1:

Have a bee in my bonnet about it, and it's frustrating and I don't want to gatekeep anyone or invalidate experiences, but I also want people

Speaker 2:

Cool live in specific skin that is more

Speaker 1:

Marginalized every day that they walk outside of their home, that there is no question about who they are. Um, and the way that they are treated like viewed. I want them to, to be able to have space, to publish and publish well without having to qualify or quantify or explain. And I'm frustrated by it. I'm completely frustrated by it in the way publishing is dealing with it. And I don't think we're dealing with it well as a community, especially not as a why a community. No.

Speaker 3:

And that's, that's kind of frustrating. Cause adult doesn't have this problem like adult, you know, people write about whatever they want and publishers publish whatever they want, I think. But we do have a duty for a very specific generation. We have a duty to children. We have a duty to do

Speaker 1:

The children that we write for, um,

Speaker 3:

And who are going to eventually read our books. And, and, and the truth is that when you read something that's harmful, it, it sticks with you, right? Like if you read a book that sh that portrays your entire culture as like a bad thing, or like, something's wrong with it, then you're going to internalize that as such a young age when you're developing. And so that's why these things are important during to talk about in this industry, in our segment of the industry. And we don't have all the answers, we're just, all we can do is have a discussion about the things that bother us. And, and these are the things, some of the things that bother you.

Speaker 1:

Yes. And it's something that we talk about a lot offline about how I used to love the term on voices. And then I saw it go off the rails when I saw authors struggling. Um, is there a term for that? Where like, not because it's not Frankenstein, it's not, it's like

Speaker 3:

This idea where you put something out there and it just becomes unwieldy.

Speaker 1:

You no longer have control over, over the thing that you created, like a snowball,

Speaker 3:

Like a snowball effect, sort of like, it's a good, becomes an avalanche.

Speaker 1:

Um, and I'm not saying like, needs to like go away. I just, I'm not going to use it in my books because I don't think that I've ever written. Maybe I think

Speaker 3:

Two of my romance novels have been on voices

Speaker 1:

And then that's it right? Because fantasy gets tricky. Right. It was interesting when the bells first came out in 2018, I had a couple of books that takes place in new Orleans, right, Louisiana. Right. Which doesn't exist. Right. Or which is a secondary world, but okay. Yolo new Orleans. Um, and people were mad that I had a queered fantasy world where the queen was. She had two partners, a male and female partner. She had literally a husband and also a beloved like, like a wife, um, the princess hooked up with whoever she wanted. You could fall in love with whoever you wanted. There were several like lots of different characters, but one of them died and people were very frustrated with me. And this character didn't die because they were. They died because they didn't follow instructions. And I have a villain who is just Ty radical and would hurt anything in anybody. And so, um, they, everyone was like, Oh, the straight author is killed a character in her book and blah, blah, blah. And is using queerness and in a, in a fantasy world. And it was like, hello. I don't know me. You don't know me. And I don't live my life online. I am on the very edge of the millennial generation where like, I'm in that crack. Right. It feels like an crack, mostly because I remember life before the internet life, before cell phones, um, life before computers. I remember life before cordless phones. Right. So I didn't grow up living my life online and being, and having all of my everywhere in high school, we had AOL messenger and that just came in and we weren't getting those, like those like free CDs

Speaker 3:

For like animal trials.

Speaker 1:

Many of those, the CDs I had the floppy disks. I still have some floppy dig sites. You said floppy, just so you know, it's fine, but it's fine city. You know that there are there. Um, but floppy, D I K S instead of D I S K, but it's okay.

Speaker 3:

I have a box of those. And there's, there's like angsty poetry there. And like all of these stuff, um, I have nothing, I have no way to open those.

Speaker 1:

Right. And any way you were saying, I brought it up saying that I didn't grow up online. So I don't know what it means to share so much of yourself into this online space. So when people were pressing me and asking me questions and upset with me and sending me hate mail and swarming me, I was like, Oh my gosh, what's happening? And so, yes, I let everyone know, hello, I'm another person, but I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to, you should be able to look at the things that I've sent online and the interviews, you know, how you were talking about anyone who goes to your Twitter for long enough, we'll figure out exactly who you are, right? Yeah. I can exactly who I am online, but without having to make some sort of grand coming out speech and put up all of these things, but there's some pressure going on in online spaces around the issue of own voices that, you know, is, can

Speaker 2:

Be troubling for on the other side of things, the person who already has to live in a public eye, and we're trying to keep some things private so that we can create our art and create, create things. So that for me, so that kids who look like me have something to read, that's like my primary focus change the shelves of libraries. So all the other is for the birds, as far as I'm concerned. And I know that it just makes me old and crotchety, I'm not going to put my resume and my DNA chart and my sexual past. And like, Oh, you know what I mean? Everything online. Yeah. I think that's really

Speaker 3:

Hard for a lot of people because,

Speaker 2:

Um, maybe there are,

Speaker 3:

There are people who are still questioning, you know, their identity, like queerness is a spectrum. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. But then I think race is different than, uh, disability and sexuality. Yeah. We can't lump them all because we absolutely can't lump them all. They're very specific and different experiences. And I think a lot about, um, authors who don't perform their marginalization and how hard it is to like get readership, because sometimes

Speaker 3:

People, you know, I don't blame readers for protecting themselves and being safe and like saying like I'm only gonna read books that are

Speaker 2:

Absolutely absolutely. That is, that is

Speaker 3:

Like a hundred percent something that like you need to do for your own personal

Speaker 2:

Production and enjoyment of books. But, you know, I think about like some of our friends who are like and, but don't perform their queerness for the internet and therefore are always left out of conversations, even though they live that life

Speaker 3:

Every single day and experience homophobia and all of these things. And so that's what I, that's what bothers me about

Speaker 2:

Like another part that bothers me about invoices, because exactly. Yeah, it does. And it's just tricky,

Speaker 3:

Hard conversation because like I said, we don't have the answers

Speaker 2:

And we don't know what's right. Because I, I don't know what somebody else is going through. Right. I don't know their life or, uh, why they're writing a book. Um, but I think that maybe an answer is if you're writing

Speaker 3:

Honestly and authentically, and you're not doing it to say,

Speaker 2:

Like, I'm on voices now, because I want to sell a novel, right. Authenticity is key. Exactly. And yes, our identities ebb and flow and they change and they get stronger and I'm always going to be Ecuadorian. Thank you. Thank you for that. I'm glad you, and trust me, listeners, she brings her Ecuadorian flag, which is the size of her body. The length of her body can be worn as a Cape everywhere. She goes and puts it up. Like never forget. This is a Ecuadorian house up in this. Like let you know. I lived with her for eight weeks and every day I walked past the Ecuadorian flag as if I had forgotten and I'm here for it. I love it. I mean, it's, it's great, but I could have played the Negro national Anthem every morning for her. Um, as a reminder, as I forget, but you're right. Every voice and sing and be like, good morning lift. Every voice is saying, let's go, you know what I mean? But like, we don't, I guess I don't want to perform my identity. I want it to be with me the way that you have your flag with you, the way that you carry the things that are important to you that are of your family, of your culture. Um, that's how it feels for me to inhabit this skin. And I just think that being authentic, online, being authentic in your work is literally inhabiting the skin that you exist in the world, the body that you exist in, um, and how you feel and the identity you th that you feel. Um, I just find it frustrating, very frustrating performance, right? Or just straight up lying, lying. Uh, there are straight up people who like have created personas in order to sell. And I know there was a couple of writers that pretended to be, you know, certain marginalizations to win prizes. Yes.

Speaker 3:

Pretend to be an Asian author.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Lore. Right. People would have called that, but go and voices. That's the thing. Like I choose to support people,

Speaker 3:

Color people. Like when I want to read a book, when I want to read a fantasy book,

Speaker 2:

Nine dying for Brown,

Speaker 3:

Hi fantasies with romance, right? Like those are the kinds of books that I want to.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. How do you, if it's not labeled on voices, how do you vet it? Right. If somebody

Speaker 3:

It's using a penny, this is, this is the thing where we get to this dicey territory. That's so cool.

Speaker 2:

Crazy. Right. It's it's weird. It really is weird. Um, I don't know. And I don't want to have to play Sherlock Holmes. Either. Negro Holmes is what I would call myself. I don't have my God. What, what, I don't want to play that game. I don't want to have to do that. And I know identity is complicated and I know that it creates oppression Olympics. And that's what I feel like this own voices game does when it's not used in its original meaning for readers. Um, it means, okay, my own voices is this and that. And I can adopt some of them. Right. It's a shifting. It became become a minstrel show very, very quickly. But I w I want and wish and hope that it can be used the way it was intended to help readers find what they're looking for. Um, and so that the readers who needed and wanted and desire books by and about people who are like them can find those things. And that, that is celebrated. That's what I, that's what I help. And I know this next generation is asking for those things. I remember being, we were there together. Remember when we were in Seattle and we were at that. Yeah, we were at that book festival. I don't remember what it was called. Oh, I do. I'll never forget it. And I was on a panel. It was one of the worst experiences I've ever had. And I was on a panel with several authors, um, some very famous and one wasn't evangelical Christian Riemer Mormons. And then it was me. I only say that to give context and a kid stood up, definitely non-binary kid rainbow earrings, coolest like Mohawk I've ever seen. Um, super cute, like so excited hands shaking. Took the mic, said, I have a question and asked what is the sexual orientation of everyone on the panel? So everyone froze, obviously the moderator who was taking questions from an audience of 800 kids, um, school kids was like, took the question and everyone froze. The first writer said, and I've talked about this on Twitter before first writer said, I'm married and have kids, right? That's your sexuality, your sexual Eddie's married. I'm married and have kids. Second author said, I'm straight married with children. Third author said, I'm just a Mormon boy who is now divorced. Next author says, well, I'm just like him. I'm a Mo, but I'm a Mormon girl married to the love of my life. And I have kids, right? No one has answered the question. Then it came to me and I had to be the. And I turned to everyone

Speaker 1:

And I embarrassed them. And I said, um, that, wasn't the question. Um, and any, all of the things you listed can be something that you can have and still be on the LGBTQ plus I a plus team and the proud screamed or whatever. And I said, and I'm a proud be on that team, not bisexual. And so things can be true, right? And everyone likes screamed and blah, blah, blah. And the kid was like visibly. Their cheeks were really red and they were near two years. And they said, I, my mom told me that I should spend money in my community. And with Anne and with, um, buying books that are from other people like me and like my family. And that's why this kid asked that question and none of the adults were able to answer it. And that's okay if you don't want to answer a question like that, it's very personal. Right. I worked with kids forever and you say, Oh, my sexual orientation is none yet. None of your business, but thank you so much for asking that. And if you want any, you know, um, recommendations for books about, and by other content creators that might share yours, please let me know and see me after. Right. I have a hundred of them and you just swerve, swerve, right? Like, it's a tough question, but it's, it's a sign of the times that this next generation is like, no, I want to know who you are. I want to know why I should spend my money buying your book. I want to know if you're a part of my community or not. And I just think that it is tough. And we are in a, in a Fisher of, uh, like a generational Fisher and also like privacy and online versus privacy issues. And I think that the own voices label has gotten caught up in that. And I think it's just things that we still need to keep asking questions and publishers have to do better deciphering. I think we would have fewer, uh, scandals. Right. I know. I mean, recently there was an, there was an agent who got duped into signing a, a white author that pretended was pretending to be Latin X. And so how do you stop that from happening? Right. Because you don't want to gatekeep, we're looking at what happens when you don't ask the right questions. It's just, it, it's, again, it's, it's Brown face, right? It's a minstrel show, right. And it's not fair. And we have to do a better job at making sure that we are giving opportunities to people who are of these communities who have been kept out for so long, because there will be scammers everywhere. The fact that, you know what I mean, people are scamming in terms of identity and says

Speaker 2:

They scary. It's actually, it scares me. Um, but I think that what we can do is write honestly right. With intentionality and which I think we've said before, but you gotta say it again, right. Honestly, and write with intentionality, um,

Speaker 1:

Yourself, feed yourself. And I think also share what you want to share online, but also be aware of the conversation and why it's fraught and why it can be tough for a lot of people. There are so many of us, um, that have been blocked from publishing for so long. It's why the numbers are the numbers. And it's time for us to have honors conversations. And I wish publishers would knock it off with the using of own voices as a shield for online criticism or for criticism in general. And I hope that we can stop forcing people to come out, forcing people, to disclose private information in order to tell them that, or to prove that it's okay, that they've written a book or participated in a form of media. Um, we've got to figure out a way around having an honest conversation about who gets to publish books about what, and also this disclosure piece, when it comes to race that unit. I mean, that is, can, I don't know if it, it feels easier, maybe, maybe not depending on what community you're in. I know everybody likes to pretend to be Latino out here. I'm like, I'm ready to do well, come Latino by association a Bishop is ready, good food. I know all the music I can dance. Right. A scene it, yeah. Please tell the people, let them know.

Speaker 2:

Excellent.[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Thank you. I know that, but I know how to move my booty. However, you won't catch me playing games, right. When someone else else's identity, um, in that way, you know what I mean, taking a spot, uh, away from someone who can tell a story that is authentic and from, from their background. Uh, and I, what I would like to see is I would like to, when it comes, you know what I mean? Especially the racial identity is it something's right. And I talk about a lot, how much I would love to see the intersections of blackness and Latin X Exodus, really bubble up and to see black people whose skin is black, get opportunities in publishing that are visible so that we can, so that even the black community itself can open up. It's open up and say, let's talk about all of these intersections, um, and welcome our Spanish speaking, you know, folks from the Latina that, into this community as well, and have a fellowship, because I would love to see, see more of that visibly. I think that most of my students teaching in East Harlem, which is Spanish Harlem, we're from black communities in central and South America. Right. And I had nothing for them, not a single book that featured a kid that was had black skin and Forese hair that spoke Spanish. Yeah. And I think that like Afro-Latinos and art, some of the most erased yes. People in our publishing industry and the most yeah. I think, and it really cooks me and you know this because I'm always yelling about it. I mean, we're always talking about it. So I know this is just like a personal conversation that we're putting on deadlines city. It is. And it's something that I'm at the top of mind for me. Um, in terms of mentorship, in terms of the voices, I would like to help usher in, in terms of who I'm looking for to like push forward to the front of the line, right? Like, come on, it's time for the world to know it's, there are people that I keep thinking about over and over again, all of those, all of those kids, um, of mine. So, so yeah, own voices is a mess in summary, but I don't think it should be, should fully go away. I think it should be used in the reader space versus the publisher space. We've got to figure out what to do, but we have no answers. Nope. We just have, uh, discussion and hopefully you can continue this discussion with us, uh, and let us know your thoughts. All right. Thanks so much. All right. That's it for this week's episode of deadline city. Thank you so, so much for listening to us, our goal is to demystify the publishing and writing process and count on listeners like you for your support. So don't forget to review comments, subscribe, and chat with us on our Twitter and Instagram deadlines, see accounts. If you like, what you hear, buy us a coffee on coffee or join our Patrion community. So see you next week. And for now write on deadline. City is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more podcasts. You'll love. I found like.media/podcasts.