Pennies To Pounds Podcast

128. How to Earn, Learn & Build Wealth Without Going to Uni ft The Black Apprentice Network

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Forget what you’ve heard — apprenticeships aren’t just for people who “couldn’t get into uni.”

In this episode, Kia sits down with Elijah, founder of The Black Apprentice Network, to break down the truth about degree apprenticeships, why they deserve way more respect, and how they can set you up for success — without £30K of student debt.

We get into:
💡 The biggest myths about apprenticeships (and why they’re wrong)
💡 The hidden benefits no one talks about — from networking to early career wins
💡 Whether uni is oversold to young people in 2025
💡 The real career progression after an apprenticeship
💡 Why more schools need to talk about apprenticeships like they talk about UCAS

Whether you’re picking your post-school path or thinking about a career switch, this conversation will make you look at apprenticeships in a whole new light.

👇 Question for you:
If you could go back, would you choose uni, an apprenticeship, or something else entirely?

🎧 Subscribe for more unfiltered conversations on money, culture & careers.

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Speaker 1:

Hey guys, welcome back to the Penning Spots podcast, the money podcast. That actually makes sense. If you ever asked yourself, why didn't we learn this at school? Or how do I get my money up without giving up everything that I love, you're in the right place. We just follow the myths, simplify the jargon and give you the playbook to build wealth in your own terms, because money moves fast and it's time that yours kept up. Welcome back everyone. I hope you had an an amazing weekend. We are back with another incredible episode. We are talking all things apprenticeship. It's a route that I wish that I went down, but unfortunately I didn't, and it's more so because I just didn't know about it. I had no idea that it was even an option. So to prevent that happening to anyone else, I brought on two amazing people who are going to talk about what they're doing and what apprenticeships really look like. So my guests, who are absolutely incredible guess who are you?

Speaker 2:

So my name is Quesi Bimpong, one of the co-founders of the Black Apprentice Network. I did a degree apprenticeship at Goldman Sachs for the past four years and now I do this full-time. So I do all things to get young black people into apprenticeships, to get young people at least knowing the access about apprenticeships or university route. But yeah, we're gonna get into it.

Speaker 3:

Elijah's my co-founder yeah, elijah co-founded the black apprentice network and did a degree apprenticeship at salesforce for a few years and um now full-time on the black apprentice network. Super happy to be working with um quessy. Also have a third co-founder, reuben, who's unfortunately not here today but um, he's our other um co-founder and you know having a lot of fun with the black apprentice network also Network Also. You know we have Black Underground and I think we could get into that a little bit today. But at least Black Apprentice Network community of over 5.5 thousand people, 1,000 current apprentices and 4.5 thousand aspiring apprentices and just trying to fork current apprentices, just helping them build relationships with each other, excelling in their apprenticeships and for the aspiring apprentices, just getting them in the best companies in the uk through apprenticeships.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, really happy to be here today very happy to have you and I'm super excited to get into this. Let's do it first things first. What we always do on the episode is I give you a 60 second myth buster okay so you have 60 seconds between the both of you. I don't know if you want to pick who who answers, but six seconds. I've got a, a timer on and you're going to answer. There are five questions. You're going to try and give me an answer for each one.

Speaker 2:

All right, cool, let's alternate yeah, so who's going?

Speaker 3:

to start. You're going to pick my scissors, all right, cool, that's it. You start, okay, cool.

Speaker 1:

Okay, right, I'm going In three, two, one. First question Apprenticeships are for people who aren't academic.

Speaker 3:

Oh, not at all. I think the amazing thing about apprenticeships is that over the past couple of years, since more and more companies are getting into apprenticeships, and also now with an introduction of degree apprenticeships, a lot of people, and a lot more like a diversity of different people, are kind of getting into apprenticeships and seeing it as a route for them to kind of accelerate their career. So there's people, um, and you know, we know them, people that you know do an apprenticeship or do a degree apprenticeship for you know one and a half, three, four years that are now getting paid more than you know some. You know russell, russell, group bras from the top universities. So it's just a genuine way to kind of accelerate your career. There's companies out there, some of which we partner up with, where it's very clear there's an accelerated route if they do an apprenticeship. So yeah, I don't think it's for um, I don't think it's not for academics at all, I think people that still want to, and you could do with masters 60 seconds, as we have to get through all of them you have to get all of them okay, you

Speaker 2:

have to be smart.

Speaker 3:

We have to redo it.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna give you that one, because that was a great answer that was a really good answer, so now, you have four more to answer in 60 seconds. That was really good 15 seconds, okay cool so no, I'm gonna be still gonna give you one minute, sorry, okay, so we'll start again, but you got four, four questions right three, two, one. You don't earn enough to live on, to live on as an apprentice lies.

Speaker 2:

Oh, actually actually depends. So, um, if I so I'm from london, born and raised in london, so I lived at home, so I earned enough from a point of view of, like, my rent wasn't crazy. But if you are moving into london and you're earning the apprenticeship average wage, which is around 25k, that might not be enough in london I lived out.

Speaker 3:

I lived out for a year and it was 50 seconds. 50 seconds next one.

Speaker 1:

You have to go to uni to get a good job oh, um.

Speaker 3:

No, if you want to go to uni, you could do degree apprenticeships. But there's also people that get into the right company, get into the right role and do an apprenticeship where they get to accelerate their career.

Speaker 1:

So you don't necessarily have to go to uni love that apprenticeships are only for trade or manual jobs no, I was working in goldman.

Speaker 2:

He was in sales force. Most of our people are in big four apprentices 10 seconds.

Speaker 1:

Black students, don't get off the top apprenticeships not at all.

Speaker 3:

We have a collection of 200 people within our you know aspiring apprentice group that get into the best companies in the uk, so it's fine bang on time bang on time that was brilliant.

Speaker 1:

Thank you guys. How did you find that Hard?

Speaker 3:

I wanted to expand a little bit. We have the whole episode. We have the whole episode to expand but you guys were, you did great.

Speaker 2:

You did really good.

Speaker 1:

I know it's intense those 60 seconds, but you did really really good. Don't worry, now we've got time to go into the main part of the conversation. So my first question to you both, because I know you both went down the degree apprenticeship route. Yeah, you both went down the degree apprenticeship route, yeah, so what made you both personally choose that apprenticeship route and how do people around you react when you made that decision?

Speaker 3:

okay, um, I'll go first. Um, the thing that made me pick the apprenticeship route was actually halfway through year 13. Before year 13, my goal was to go to lsc or warwick. That was my goal and I actually got into work um later. But the reason why I pursued our apprenticeship is because I didn't just want to be hired based on my um potential. I wanted to be hired based on the actual skills that I that I have. It's a good interview answer, but that's generally why I have decided to pursue an apprenticeship and that's what I found.

Speaker 3:

I found that you know, after my apprenticeship um, the role that I was given within salesforce, or even like the roles outside of salesforce that were open to me, or some headhunters on LinkedIn kind of sending you an automated message saying, you know, jump into this application process, you know it allowed me to.

Speaker 3:

Okay, now there's a flaw in terms of how much I could earn if I wanted to go out into the job market and do this specific job. So the reason why I wanted to do an apprenticeship was because of the skills and I wanted to kind of be in that company environment. And I wanted to kind of be in that company environment. There was a couple other things that you know after I actually went in that weren't related to why I got into it, which I think are other massive benefits. So the ability to kind of explore different departments, the ability to actually earn money on an apprenticeship, that wasn't as much of a focus of mine, but it is nice to be able to earn money in an apprenticeship and start your financial journey there. But the main reason was because I actually wanted to learn skills, which is a valid reason that I actually did, you know, accomplish that yeah, I think for me, um.

Speaker 2:

So we knew each other from like 16 years old and we went on this program called the amos bursary and that was my first exposure to people that were young and black but in the corporate careers that I wanted. So there was a one of my good ab older brothers name was Victor and he's working at JP Morgan at the time and he was in JP Morgan Dubai. He was like maybe 24 years old and I was like I want that lifestyle and I think when you're young, for me, like I'm a car guy, so when I see a nice car, I'm like okay, my head turns like what was that? And then I'm the type of guy to go to what do you do? Do you do for a living? And for that week I would do whatever, or I'd research about everything that that person does for a living and say, yeah, I want to do that, but obviously those were for the wrong reasons. But that was I was young. But I say that because my role model at the time were in corporate careers and I was like how do I get there faster? How do I beat um my peers as well as get the correct education as my peers, which, um in my household as well, was a degree. So I'm the youngest child and um all my elder brothers had degrees as well. So I was like, okay, I need to find a balance of working but also getting this um education and um.

Speaker 2:

Long story short, that was the route that I chose. It wasn't the route that I initially wanted. I, we both wanted to go to university, so we met at a program called bridging the gap that helps people get to university. So it was like I'm not saying that, oh, I woke up and never wanted to go uni. I did want to go uni at a time, um, but I also realized what was important to me was accelerating my career. In terms of the second part of the question was how was people around me? How did they react? My family were really calm. Youngest child, though, so I can you get, you, get I could appreciate.

Speaker 2:

I'm not the youngest.

Speaker 2:

I'm the oldest, so I didn't get that I could appreciate that if my eldest brother was to do it, um, perhaps someone has to try it exactly and then you get the whatsapp phone so, but in terms of how my friends um reacted a lot of the guys, um, they were like oh, you're going to be earning lit. A lot of the girls they were like oh, like, apprenticeships are lesser than why aren't you going to university? Then my teachers again, they were very surprised, um about like, are you sure that's the route that you want to take? Obviously, have some teachers that are like banging, do that, because the teachers that have been in corporate and then left corporate to do this, they get it. The teachers that have just only been teachers, they don't get it at all. They're like uni is the route.

Speaker 2:

It's changing now though. Yeah, it's changing, it's changing now, but I would say, especially in, like our community, the African Caribbean community. Obviously there's aunties that have like stopped their children from doing it and we're like working to change that, but I would say, yeah, people mixed emotions in terms of how people felt I can imagine I mean myself, obviously but was that about 27?

Speaker 1:

so about nine years ago? That would be me making that decision as well nine, ten years ago. And the sixth form that I went to great sixth form I went to brampton Manor.

Speaker 3:

Okay, okay, project Brampton. I went to Brampton Manor.

Speaker 1:

Academy. That was my sixth form.

Speaker 3:

So that was even before they were in the news or in the press.

Speaker 1:

No, they weren't. They were already in the press. Oh, that was part of the reason I wanted to go there and I wanted to make it. Okay, brampton's always been that guy third or fourth cohort yeah, sixth form cohort, but they were already making the new it was the same head teacher.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, dr Lukashi. Okay, cool. Yeah, so that means he was on it, dr.

Speaker 1:

Lukashi sorry, this is a little side tangent, but, dr Lukashi.

Speaker 1:

so I didn't go to main school, yeah, but I went to sixth form, yeah, and at the time we had like a hundred and eight seventy sixty, 60 of us in 6th grade across year 12 and year 13 and I remember walking through main school and I saw Dr Akoshi and obviously you stand up straight and he's Dr Akoshi, but I'd never interacted with him before and I walked past him and I said hello, sir, and he said hello, sir, hello. And he stopped. He said Kia, how does this? Man know my name how does he know my name?

Speaker 3:

and.

Speaker 1:

I was like sir. He said my full name. I said how did you know? We've never interacted in our lives. He didn't teach me anything, nothing. Wow. And he said to me how's French going? Wow. I said how does he know what I study? Then we found out that he had every single student in the school on his wall, full names and what we were studying Wow. So when he saw me, he knew exactly my full name, exactly what I was studying.

Speaker 2:

I love that Crazy. I love that as well.

Speaker 1:

No but bear in mind that's across the main school and sixth form.

Speaker 2:

So that's thousands like thousands plus students that he knew. That's why, yeah, now you know what? I can't remember his name. I didn't meet him.

Speaker 1:

Incredible man Like literally so the stuff you hear about Brampton yeah, set up. We didn't hear anything other than university. Obviously that's where I applied. I went to university. But if I had my time again, I would have loved to have gone down the apprenticeship route and I think I would have thrived in that route.

Speaker 3:

If you scroll down twitter long enough, we'll be able to see your picture or you know I'll be somewhere.

Speaker 1:

I'll definitely be I will definitely be somewhere. 100 I'll be somewhere um, but brampton was an incredible experience I would. I would definitely say that it that it's a unique one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, definitely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's hard, most of my friends were Brampton yeah. It's a very unique experience. Everyone who's been to Brampton knows what that means, but it was great. It was great and I'm glad I went. So I'm glad to hear that you guys enjoyed the route that you went down and now you can obviously create something to help 100 people coming after you to do the same. So I want to ask you, what's a misconception that still frustrates you to this day around apprenticeships?

Speaker 2:

I think it goes back to the initial question and the myth busting thing was that um around the academic, like academic powers of a student and um it and I mean we fall short to this in the sense of apprenticeships were my second option to university.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to go to Oxbridge, so I applied Cambridge, applied Imperial and stuff like that. I did get my offers, not from Cambridge, but I got my offer from like Imperial, and I think that initial rejection from Cambridge is what spurred me to take it more seriously, it more seriously, whereas now, after doing the program, I think that it should have been viewed up for me personally or for the junior and people coming up on the same level or on similar levels, especially for certain fields. So that, yeah, the misconception around it's a second option or it's for people that are less academically gifted definitely still bugs me to this day because, like the way I view it is, um, companies like Goldman, companies like JP, like Salesforce, like Google, aren't going to be hiring talent. That isn't good enough anyway, and the talent that they typically hire has been from university, almost as an indicator of you are smart, whereas if you get the four years at one of those companies, like to me, it's better than anything else.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, I agree.

Speaker 3:

I think, in terms of misconceptions, I would say, something that isn't highlighted enough is how much you can kind of accelerate your career within apprenticeship, so just being able to be within the right company, being able to have a view of the different departments, being able to kind of build a relationship with the different people within the company and build a reputation. I think there was a story in the news of you know someone that started an apprenticeship at Deloitte at 18 and eventually became a partner at 30, which is very, very young, tobias, very young Minimum salary, you know, yeah, check on financial terms for the salary of your partners.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, check on financial terms for the salary, yeah, but you're able, especially a company like deloitte and there's other companies like this where they really focus on their apprentices and allow their apprentices to really ascend the organization if they do work and show that they're valuable. I think it's not highly highlighted enough how much your career could be kind of accelerated. It is work, but your career could be massively accelerated if you just pick the right apprenticeship and the right company.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think I think a lot of it is work, but your career could be massively accelerated if you just pick the right apprenticeship and the right company yeah, and I think, I think a lot of it is down to like exposure and understanding because, I wasn't told that when I was in school and my peers weren't really told that, and when it was positioned, it was unfortunately positioned as oh, if you didn't do well, you're definitely going to we'll go down apprenticeships, and apprenticeships were more positioned like what I asked you in myth busting, as manual labour or trade routes you know you can be a plumber or you can be something like that, and you're thinking I don't want to do that you know I didn't come and do study for how many years, not knocking it.

Speaker 1:

But that's the mentality you might have when you're there, that you might already be interested in but also be earning money. I mean I would have I'm a massive fan of money if you understand.

Speaker 2:

Hello, I would have loved to have done that at 18.

Speaker 1:

I'm not. You know, my path was my path and I'm grateful for where I am today. But I think it's amazing to highlight this even more for young people who have no idea, or maybe their schools and institutions aren't pushing this and they should do yeah, I think I think the most interesting thing is that university was set up, or set up as a great indicator for you to get a job.

Speaker 2:

Like when you look at the job market now, regardless if you have a university degree especially, I have friends that went oxbridge, that's like done the whole project brampton to work to oxbridge route, that aren't getting the jobs that they want, yeah, or aren't even getting like past any interview stage. So that's why the whole um thing, or the whole notion around because you've gone to university, you're going to get the dream job that you want, it doesn't exist anymore. It existed definitely, definitely existed before. Like, for example, people used to go to like business school, get an MBA. That means that you're guaranteed to be c-suite in 10 years.

Speaker 2:

All that stuff doesn't exist anymore. So the stuff around what is actually real, yeah, around earning the money, like we earned really good money and when we were done, we can be like, as I said, fairly transparent. We have some of our solicitor apprentice friends that they swat start 18, 30 grand. Six years from then they're gonna be on 120 on average and it's like that's not something. That's like oh, um, it's not guaranteed. The program you end on, is you get your training like solicitor package in there?

Speaker 2:

the path is definitely so that the path is cleared out for you, whereas at university which I still love you go to uni with the attempt to get that um thing. But if you can attempt to get it now and you get it now, in my opinion, take it I 100.

Speaker 1:

I couldn't agree more and I think it's it's incredible. But I want to ask then, because you kind of touched a little bit in terms of, like, salary transparency, yeah, what are some of the hidden benefits of doing a degree apprenticeship that people don't talk about? So you've kind of mentioned, obviously, the fast track of the money yeah, you don't get university, you leave with debt, not a surplus, but what? What the additional things? So maybe around, obviously, knowledge, anything else that you think?

Speaker 2:

leverage like and I'll go into that leverage from like a networking point of view. We spent our first year, we spent our first summer, working in new york and that came from just networking with people, so like that, and that's how kind of how that band started like. We were like we should share this experience with people that are like us and we were in it, so salesforce in new york, goldman in new york, and um, it was crazy like 30 days there, um, and I love new york.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, great yeah it was incredible, it was great, yeah, but that whole thing of like leveraging the fact that, um, I'm in a company that's international, that's headquartered in the States, that like everything for the financial, like the financial motherland is the States, so going there wasn't crazy, talking to people that could put you on isn't crazy. It's like, oh, if you mentioned to someone on the street or in your church, I'm gonna work in New York for a summer, that they are like, okay, we're gonna cover you in prayer because this is a big thing.

Speaker 2:

If you say that in the firm, it's like, okay, normal you're, you're visiting your, like your sister, your sister team in in the in the states, and it's like stuff becomes really really normal to you. So when you're leveraging the connections that um you have, which you can only get via being in the room, like that's the most underrated thing. There's people that like people dream about talking to on linkedin, that you just walk by and genuinely, because you're young and you look very young in the company, they either come up to you and say what are you doing here, like from a like, oh like, let me coach you, or you go up to them and they are down to help you that's amazing, yeah what were you?

Speaker 3:

um, yeah, I would push on a point of leverage um. Being able to network within salesforce got me an opportunity where after my apprenticeship yeah, I was able to go to dublin for a role and I would have probably because of how competitive that role was if I went to university it would have would have been very difficult for me to eventually get that role. So, being um within the company that I was in, being able to talk to different people and being able to leverage certain relationships and actually build a relationship with the hiring manager for the role that I was getting going to get into it allowed me to just tap into incredible opportunities that wouldn't have been there if I didn't didn't do an apprenticeship I think, hearing both of your experiences it's incredible, because networking something I believe should be taught in school is understanding how to talk to people over and above to make friends, but to actually be able to maneuver the corporate workspace.

Speaker 1:

Because, like you both maybe not in the same vein, because I didn't do it under real friendship, but throughout my career doing this, I have been in some rooms, I've been with people, worked with brands that I wouldn't have gotten had I not leveraged relationship or had I not been there or done certain things. Because I'm in that space.

Speaker 2:

And.

Speaker 1:

I think a lot more people, especially young people, need to understand that if you're in the rooms and you have those conversations, then you can actually create opportunities that don't exist One of the first so when I started Pennies Pounds I'm full-time now and I have been for about four years but in the beginning I was still working and one of the jobs that I got was someone came to the podcast, loved how I was as a host and everything, and then wanted me in their company and they're like we don't have a role for you, we're not actually hiring, but I'm going to make something around you just because we're having conversations I came in and kind of made a role around me and what I want to do, what I think, how I think I could help and what they wanted from me and that was all just from leveraging a connection.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just because we're there. I think people underestimate that.

Speaker 2:

But to hear you two are traveling yeah, yeah just from leveraging is what we need to hear more I think that, like another um thing that happened is um and it's like we're gonna be talking about holiday brunch we went to lisbon, um, for web summit in our first year as well, so that we were maybe two months into our apprenticeships and, um, when I so they, they give you like the cards, right in terms of like your name, and I put the company name under. You get stopped because of the company name, right and um, typically young guy, especially young black guy in like the biggest tech conference in europe. No one's really going to come and talk to me unless I'm like a crazy tech founder or something. But they're talking to you because of the association that you have and like it's one great, great thing that universities do have or certain universities have. So, for example, like um, I know like um people that go to Oxbridge. When they say to someone I've gone to Oxbridge, they can say, oh, what college are you in? And there's that connection there. But if you don't go to one of those colleges, you're not going to one of those universities, you're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 2:

But when I go to a finance event and I say, oh yeah, I'm from Goldman or I worked in Goldman and they were like how old are you?

Speaker 2:

They're 18. There's a certain level of I want to find out more, because either I want to be there or I've been there or I've tell people like XGS. There's a level of okay, we believe that we don't even need to see what you're going to do, like in this potential interview or whatever, because we trust that for the past four years you were in the room of like the people that we want to attract and I think that, like university does that to a certain extent. So like you have target universities, but those target universities get you into the job. So imagine, if you've done the job, like you can bounce from places to places if you need to. For some people you don't need to, but it's this, it's this little things like that which you realize more and more as you get older. I wish I had that corporate stamp, because everyone's just looking for that stamp absolutely I also touch on the leverage point.

Speaker 3:

I think on the leverage point, it also, I think, depending on how much work you actually and effort you put into leverage, it determines how much you're able to get out of it. So I think for apprenticeships, I think the good thing about apprenticeships is that, especially compared to if you don't go to a target university, I think the floor for apprenticeships is probably higher.

Speaker 2:

Think the floor for apprenticeships is probably higher than a floor for.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, if you go to a non-target university. Yeah, if you. If you go to a non-target university, the floor is just you're not able to get it's hard.

Speaker 1:

You're content.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's more of a ladder process of I didn't go to a target university. I just need to get in the room so that I can build up the skills, so then I can go and go and go and go. But that that's the. That's my thing about the little things that I don't think junior people realize. Um, when it comes into just how, like corporate moves, it's who isn't it one, it's who you know. But it's like what have you done? And if you haven't gone to a target university, you need a lot more to prove yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1:

I think that there's a lot more graft to get these to be done just just to get to the same base it happens, but yeah, it's it's hard.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I would also say that, like the ceiling, to be fair, the ceiling for if you go to a good university is also pretty good, yeah, but I think the ceiling if you do well within an apprenticeship is also, especially if you pick the right company and the right apprenticeship. It's also, you know, very good I think me and Questy, I think we made the most apprenticeships. But there's some people that are in this opportunity but didn't make the absolute most of it. Um, some people, you know, they got what they wanted, they got the job afterwards, but they didn't make the absolute most of the opportunity. Um, but again, even if you just go for the apprenticeship and just get a role afterward, that in itself is still like an especially a good company.

Speaker 1:

It's still an amazing opportunity for you in your career absolutely. What would you both say if you could go back again and talk to? Younger you what's one thing that you believe you both do differently? I mean, you both sound like you. You have rinsed out that friendship. You've got everything that you've rinsed out but if there's anything that you believe you would have changed, what would it have been?

Speaker 3:

um, um, it's weird. Um, I don't even say this to be cocky. I think I did my apprenticeship good in a lot of ways. Um, would I have networked even more? Perhaps? I think perhaps I would have networked even more, um, especially during that first year, which I don't think is necessarily bad During the first year of my apprenticeship I didn't really network that much. During the second year and third year, that's when I really started to focus on it more worked that much during the second year and third year. That's when I really started to focus on it more I would.

Speaker 3:

I would definitely say, during that first year, I um maybe making just trying to learn more, more skills. Because I think within the first year of the apprenticeship, one thing that people don't talk about is that within like the first six, seven, eight months, there's a massive learning curve. Yeah, because you're within this new company, within this new role, there's a whole bunch of things you need to kind of learn. Even for me, it was just understanding what exactly salesforce even, even, even, does and knowing that comprehensively. But after like six, seven, eight months, that's when you learn. You still learn every day throughout the apprenticeship, but that's when, okay, I'm kind of getting you know my hands on certain things, I kind of understand it a bit more. So I would say, just spending more time trying to kind of get over that learning curve and learn more skills specific to the role I had within salesforce, that's probably what I would do, um, but yeah, that's probably the thing I was focused on.

Speaker 2:

I like I'd actually say that I networked too much too much yeah because, um, I think one one of the great things of networking is that, yeah, you get connected with people. But the reason I say this is because I think that we've not like just us, but there's this um big notion of just network, network, network with no strategy. So now I'm hearing like the younger generation come up to me and be like like they haven't said hi, like what's your name is straight, hi, what's your linkedin? Put it in and they walk off and it's like what has this interaction? I'm not gonna remember anything from it, or like you might feel good, you might get that little dopamine rush in a sense of like you see a connection with someone that might have more followers than you, but that's you're turning, for example, linkedin into like an instagram back in the day thing where people were just follow, like follow for follow. But, um, the reason I say I networked too much was I, yeah, I think I over glorified the idea of just knowing so so many people from a such a superficial level that I didn't invest enough in the ones that I needed to. Towards the end, I realized it really quickly and it made me okay, go on a strategy again to select the few and like become really, really strategic when it came into how my relationships were building.

Speaker 2:

But I do think that I went into the company with the idea with like this open book and I didn't allow. I didn't listen enough to the mentors or at the time that I didn't know they were mentors but to the people that were saying what do you want to do? Why? Instead of, I was just like who do you want to know? Who do you want to know? Just build up like an ammo of people. And there was um. We at our event last week, um, a guy called um afsal hussein was pretty much talking about he at every event, he so let's say something like this I'd get your name, your number, your email and send you like a paragraph about how great it was meeting you.

Speaker 2:

And it's like, if you do that over like a couple years of time, in terms of the like little rooms that you go in, you end up having a nice logbook of like a good years of time in terms of the little rooms that you go in.

Speaker 2:

You end up having a nice logbook of like a good amount of people and the people that you meet eventually are going to be the managing directors eventually are going to be the next founders of the next big thing. But stuff compounds and I think meeting people compounds, relationships always compound. So doing the apprenticeship and starting it from young, great. But like I now have um a lot of people where it's a case of they've seen me from 18 now I'm 22 where they can be like yeah, I remember, like our first conversation, and every year you send me a birthday message. Every year you send me happy Easter, merry Christmas. It's like you're always going to be in my mind, at least once a quarter, and I think that's something I didn't realize soon when I first started yeah, but I think both of you have made such valid points around networking.

Speaker 1:

Obviously you would have done more in your first year and you would have kind of made more meaningful connections earlier, but all of that again is just stuff that you're not really taught.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:

Now I realise that it's quicker than a lot of people, I'm telling you. I meet people who are 30, 40 plus, who still haven't understood the best way.

Speaker 2:

It's a game.

Speaker 1:

It is, and I've learned, obviously through doing Pennies Pounds and my podcast. I have met so many incredible people, People who some have become friends, some are just, you know, obviously people that I've got connections with.

Speaker 3:

That.

Speaker 1:

I now have got such a massive logbook. And then, recently, my friend was asking me I was trying to work on something, and she and then, recently my friend was asking me I was trying to work on something and she's like, oh yeah, but you must know someone here.

Speaker 3:

I was like yeah, I know two people there.

Speaker 1:

I was like yeah, I know two people there, you know, because I've just obviously built connections over the years, even just maintaining it every so often and just saying, hey, like you know, the last time I worked together was like three years ago, let's just catch up for coffee, not even like, let's just, you know, just keeping that momentum going it's helpful. Oh, absolutely, it really does pay dividends in the long run, yeah, 100%, 100% and it's something that I encourage everyone to do, whether you're doing degree, apprenticeship or just trying to build anything yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think, you need to have that connection to help you.

Speaker 2:

I feel like university forces you to do that, and that's what I like about university. So, for example, um, the people that you might be in halls with, like it's like the same thing of like some of my best friends have come from seeing implants at school, so it's like in university, the first person that you might meet or talk to you, like it helps, whereas with degree apprenticeships, because everyone's a bit older than you, there's also added pressure, of course. That's the one thing I would say. University people, although it's not like taught, like taught, it's kind of like forced yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I mean the first friend I made. She lived next door to me and we moved in.

Speaker 2:

At the same time we were both there at the same time and stuff like that is super helpful so that does make sense.

Speaker 1:

What we're going to do is we're going to move on to the last section, which is called rich or ridiculous so I've got six questions here. Both of you are, but if you're going to tell me rich or ridiculous or rich or like, yeah, you should do this ridiculous, no chance and give me a very short reason why. There is no time limit so you can take your time on this, but I want to hear your answers if you think someone's rich or ridiculous and give me just a very short reason alright, cool do you want to go first this time?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, narrow up your position okay, first question spending 60k on a uni degree with no clear career plan, rich or ridiculous?

Speaker 2:

now I kind of want to ask this question are you good for this thing?

Speaker 3:

I. I actually think it's um rich. I just think it's rich. I think um. I think there needs to be a massive demystification even though I love apprenticeships. There needs to be a massive demystification on how uni debt works, because it's not as bad as people yeah it's not as bad as people think when you look at our american and canadian cousins.

Speaker 3:

It's not as bad as the systems over there, um, and you can see it as a graduate tax and if you make the most out of your university experience, it's fine to pick up that debt, um, and over the three or four years you have that university degree. As long as you're really intentional about kind of learning, what sort of areas you want to explore, I think it could be a worthy investment of doing it. And um university just usually not 60k I know 60k is crazy.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, 60k is probably, if you're doing something like veterinary degree or something like that, something longer I will say, though, if you're someone that's a, that's gonna eventually become a high earner, you will notice that tax coming out of your account, because if you're earning 100k, you're going to be earning, you're going to eventually become a high earner. You will notice that tax coming out of your account Because if you're earning 100K, you're going to be earning. You're going to be spending a certain amount of that on, you know, that graduate tax. So if you're earning 200K, you're going to be spending a certain amount on that graduate tax.

Speaker 1:

But then it's money well spent.

Speaker 3:

No, yeah, I guess it's money well spent, but you're just going to. I don't know if you necessarily see it because, to be fair, I don't have you see it, I've seen it with my brothers, it's there it's on your page.

Speaker 2:

I'll definitely double down and say like rich. What I would say is the only reason I'll say it a tiny bit ridiculous is in the sense of because you might have failed to make a career plan beforehand or have a potential route. That is why you might have failed to like make a career plan beforehand or have like a potential roots. That was why you might have failed to realize or recognize that there are other options to what you can get into. For example, let's say you want to be a vet and you feel like you have to study medicine to get into that, but there was like a. There might have been like a vet school, which meant like a two-year program. I'm just all for taking the path, not even of resistance, but taking the path that definitely can guarantee what you want to get into if you do know. But if you don't know, yeah, you have to just try stuff out.

Speaker 3:

I am a massive fan also of like taking the effort to try and know earlier. So I think you, knowing that you want to be a finance bro, for example, at you know 17 versus 25, I think the 17 year old has a massive advantage, super helpful, just compounds so I say try and not ever. You know. Sometimes it's pretty hard to kind of know at that age. You are really young, at like 16, 17, 18, even like 20, 21 age. But if you know earlier the better the better, I agree.

Speaker 1:

Second one is earning 20k as an apprentice at 19 rich or ridiculous rich 20k.

Speaker 2:

Now when someone says 20k, I'm like get a higher apprenticeship. Like so I ended my apprenticeship on 45k and, like most of my friends, ended around 40, 45, 40 rolling onto 70k packages, some of them rolling onto like ridiculous packages. I said, like the law people rolling onto 120k. We were 21. So it's like when I first entered my company, yeah, we were earning 20 and then that's when stuff changed. I think as apprenticeships got popular, corporates were like yeah, you know, we need to up it because they can't live off this. So most of the apprentices that are in band starting on like fair uk, especially in london at least, so I'll say rich yeah, I'd say rich as well.

Speaker 3:

I think it's really nice to be earning during your apprenticeship. I don't want to understate that. But I'd also say it's not necessarily as important the salary you do during your apprenticeship versus what the progression is within the company. If you know the progression is towards a certain level within the company and you see that progression, that's much more important than whatever salary that you have doing the apprenticeship. And I think some students may focus on that initial salary that they get once they get into their apprenticeship but actually kind of look at, okay, once I actually, you know, graduate from this apprenticeship, yeah, you know what are people earning, you know 5, 10, 15 years. Because when you compare that to the salary doing your apprenticeship, certain routes are just very lucrative.

Speaker 2:

The the only reason why I say the only caveat I have to that is, apprenticeships are like, especially in our community right, a lot of people need financial support. So, for example, the son or the daughter that generally does need to support their family, I would say like 20K or 25K as an added income to a household makes a massive, massive difference. Like I was blessed that it wasn't like a big thing of. Like my dad or my mom were like oh, finally, now you're earning. We needed this.

Speaker 2:

However, I have some friends, like one of my best friends on my apprenticeship took over the mortgage when he started earning an amount, and it's not the fact that he didn't or he was forced to, it was I have this ability to help. Um, but yeah, as you said, like progression, for example, if you're going to be on like 20k but you know by the end of it you can be on something higher and you're doing three years. It's a learning experience, but I would definitely say, have in mind how companies reward efforts, because salaries salary becomes a massive part of your corporate journey and I wouldn't advise anyone to not forget that, especially as you get older in corporate absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1:

Last one we're gonna keep this quite quick. Uh, choosing a lower paid apprenticeship over a flashy grad scheme.

Speaker 3:

Which ridiculous depends on how good the lower grade apprenticeship is and how good the flashy grad scheme is um lower paid, so just getting an apprenticeship yeah, versus versus a flashy grad scheme I think, again, it depends on the progression in both. I think, um, if you're on a low paid apprenticeship but the progression is really there, you know, 5, 10, 15 years down the line I'll say the lower grade apprenticeship, I mean lower paid apprenticeship, the flashy grad scheme, yeah, again, if that progression is there, maybe I'd opt for it.

Speaker 2:

For me it's all about progression, progression. Just to answer the question quickly, I say flashy grad scheme Obviously like yes, we push apprenticeships forward, but we also push undergraduates forward, now that we do like black undergrad. Um, the reason why I say flashy grad scheme is probably the potential. The chance that you need to to get that must have been like really, really small. Um, so I I'm all for doing the route that like one was difficult, but it's too kind of like catapult you higher, and I think a lot of grad schemes do that yeah, I'd also expand on that.

Speaker 3:

You know, there's certain same way you talk about apprenticeships give you a certain stamp on your resume. I think there's certain industries where certain grad schemes give you a certain stamp on your resume. That training contract, yeah, the training contract. I know marketing that unilever and future leaders program is big there's a lot of mbb you know a lot of investment banking analyst programs.

Speaker 3:

There's some graduate schemes where it just gives you a massive stamp and a massive kind of leg up in that early career. So I'd definitely say a flashy grad scheme, especially the right grad scheme, could be a massive launchpad for your career amazing.

Speaker 1:

Thank you guys so much. This has been amazing and you've almost made me reminisce about younger me. If only, if only. But I can live for you guys yeah, for everyone listening and watching. Where can they find out more about you both and what you both are working on full-time?

Speaker 3:

yeah, um, I'll go first. Um, so, ladjulani perkin on linkedin. Check out the black apprentice network on linkedin if you want to be a part of the black apprentice network. I think it's black apprentice networkice Network. It's couk, right, not com couk. Also, check us out. We've, you know, started our content journey. I think it's the order is Ruben. Hello Jack and Kressy, check out the channel over there. We have some good, you know tips for you guys there. But, yeah, definitely check out Black Undergrad on LinkedIn. Also, black Apprentice Network should be available on LinkedIn, instagram and TikTok as well. Got some great content there. But, yeah, check out those channels.

Speaker 2:

For me, quessie Benpong on LinkedIn, instagram and everything Black Apprentice Network, as you said, black Undergrad, as you said. And then our newest venture is busting the myths around, like young people don't have fun in corporate. So we've launched something called subject outside and it's pretty much our event events brand, and so we're taking we've taken 50 people to 40 people to spain in may, taking 80 people to tenerife in october, and every month we do crazy events. I think this week we're doing a football event which has 400 people come in. So, yeah, subject outside.

Speaker 1:

Subject outside, you guys are so busy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's best. It's better now than never.

Speaker 1:

It's true, and to have graced us on this podcast is absolutely incredible. So thank you both so much. Wish you nothing but the best. We're from the building. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and.