130. Money, Culture and Legacy: What Black British Wealth Really Looks Like

Pennies To Pounds presents Where We Learned It, a powerful roundtable conversation exploring how money, culture and legacy shape the Black British experience.

Hosted by Kia Commodore, this discussion brings together Emmanuel Asuquo, Angel Arutura, Rotimi Merriman-Johnson and Elaine Babey for an honest conversation about money, identity and community.

Together, they unpack where we really learned about money growing up, the unspoken financial rules that shaped us, and how a new generation is redefining Black British wealth.

🎥 Watch the full roundtable on YouTube: https://youtu.be/IhX-yImevkQ

In this episode, we explore:

• How money lessons were passed down through generations
• The influence of culture and community on financial habits
• The unspoken rules of money within Black British households
• Hustling culture, legacy and redefining success
• How Gen Z and Millennials view wealth, stability and freedom

This episode dives deep into financial education, cultural legacy and generational wealth within the UK’s Black community. Expect honesty, reflection and real stories that connect finance to everyday life.

Next time, we’ll be exploring another community of underserved voices in the next edition of the Where We Learned It roundtable series — continuing the conversation on money, identity and culture from new perspectives.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Purpose Of Archive
• 0:49 Meet The Roundtable Guests
• 1:22 First Money Memories And Lessons
• 3:58 Unspoken Rules And Scarcity At Home
• 6:45 Class, School And Social Currency
• 11:45 Material Status And Unlearning Appearances
• 15:50 Parents, Risk And Money Mindsets
• 20:46 Hustle Culture Versus Healthy Ambition
• 27:10 Saying No, Value And Pricing Yourself
• 31:05 Defining And Navigating Black Tax
• 37:20 Boundaries, Receipts And Oxygen Masks
• 41:24 Gen Z, Millennials And Changing Priorities
• 47:30 Choice, Care, And The Cost Of Family
• 53:05 What Black British Wealth Could Be
• 1:00:20 Ownership, Culture And Trust
• 1:05:10 Final Money Lessons For The Next Generation

Transcript

SPEAKER_05: 0:00

Welcome to Where We Learned It, a Blackfish Mud Roundtable brought to you by Penny for Towns. This is part of the Black British Money Archive, where we're documenting the stories and lessons that have shaped how we as Black Brits think about money. Money isn't taught in schools. For many of us, it was picked up at home, in our community, or simply through survival. Those lessons, both spoken and unspoken, have defined generations. In this conversation, we're asking what Black British World looks like today, and more importantly, where we learned it. Thank you everyone for joining me. I am so excited to get into the conversation. I have got an incredible round table panel of guests with me, and I've wanted to call you all my friends. I'm still wanted to call you all my friends. We have Angel, Bray Timmy, Elaine, and Emmanuel. Now, as much as I'd love to sing it accolades, I think you can sing it better yourself. So we'll start with you, Angel. Who are you?

SPEAKER_02: 0:49

My name is Angel Arotura. I'm from Ireland. I'm a DJ, content creator, cultural curator, and international speaker.

SPEAKER_01: 0:57

I'm Rotimi Mervin Johnson. I run a financial education company called Mr. Manager, and I've been doing it for the past six years.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04

I am Elaine, also known as Elaine Baby, and I'm an entertainer, comedian, script writer, musician, singer, and yeah, just vibing, yeah. Go to school.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13

Hey everyone, I'm Emmanuel Suco. I'm a financial advisor, financial educator. Um Kia's adopted big brother. So if I have to discipline her in this, I will.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22

So I'm gonna start with you, Angel, and I want to ask you, where did you actually learn about money growing up? Like, do you remember your first lessons when it comes to actually learning about money?

SPEAKER_02: 1:30

Like, we had this thing called LE in school, and I think it was like learning development, and that's whenever I first learned about money. Um, so it was probably like secondary school, like money wasn't really talked about much, like in our house.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42

My first money memories are around saving coppers. So uh, whenever we used to buy stuff, me and my brother we'd save coppers into um like a five-litre like Africa water bottle, and we'd save it up, and then when we'd got enough, we'd go to the post office and and change it into like notes.

SPEAKER_05: 2:03

Was that lucrative? Did you save a lot of money?

SPEAKER_01: 2:05

Yeah, I remember changing coppers into like 10-20 pound notes when I was younger. And also playing Monopoly.

SPEAKER_05: 2:12

Or gamified like that. So I love that.

SPEAKER_04: 2:14

Elaine? Um yeah, I'd say my first memories in regarding money, I think started from um just the home and like my understanding of it as well. So, like, you know, like especially like with my mummy, oh, how much is that? Oh, it's too much, it's too much. So that was like my like that's those my first encounters of money and stuff. So even like sometimes like when I'd buy stuff or anything as well, like there was always that sort of like, how much is this? Oh, it's too much, or every like penny was always counted. So I think that's where the beginning of like um my understanding and relationship with money, like I started, mainly from like the home and like yes.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

Yeah, I think my first lesson, lessons about money was that we didn't have it. I think that's that's how I learned money. I learned money by we don't have any money. Like, can I get any trade? No, we don't have money. Can I can I go out? No, we don't have money. I remember um my mom, my mum used to pick us up from primary school, and on the way, the walk to the bus stop, there used to be a McDonald's, and we and I always used to say, Can we go into this McDonald's? I was like, We don't have money. There's McDonald's at home, and then she would make bread and burger and put it. That was, and it was always like, I always see everyone, McDonald's was always that walking past, seeing all the joy inside McDonald's and knowing that we don't have any money, so we can't have joy. And that was that kind of image of money growing up.

SPEAKER_05: 3:25

I think it's very poignant hearing that you guys all remember your first instance with money. I think mine, if I think back to it, was probably at home. My dad also used to have a massive bottle. He had the you know the massive Coke bowls that I don't know if you've seen them, you can put your copies in there. So he used to do that every time we went out, we had changed, we'll put it in there. And then, similar to your upbringing, Iman, my parents, McDonald's was not a regular occurrence for us. It was every time I wanted that happy meal to feel happy, I never I didn't really get that. It didn't happen. But it really does shape how we view money today. So I want to go around and kind of bring it to the table then and ask were there any unspoken rules around money in your household that you remember?

SPEAKER_04: 4:02

I think for me, there was always um like a scarcity mindset when it came to money. Um, I think uh, like for example, like I don't know, there was a time where like my um my family that we went out to eat and stuff, and then um I must have like ordered like a lot and then oh you spent this much like on the meal, so there's always that, oh you spent this much on the bag, or you there was never really like a sense of like oh I want to buy you like this bag or I want to buy you this, like especially like in school, like if you wanted like you know, like a branded like Adidas bag or anything of that sort of thing. You wanna pause boutique? Yeah, pause boutique, yeah, kickers, all of these things. So I think there was always that sense of I've spent this much. I think there was always like a form of um like guilt and stuff, and I kind of feel like I I've literally just learned how to like um deconstruct that like as an adult, like because I think I had that um, I wouldn't say it was trauma, but like pattern of like feeling, oh that's so much money later, but I know that I need to invest into myself.

SPEAKER_00: 4:55

I don't think there's unspoken rules, but I just feel like money was always a is very much we don't talk about money. My dad's an accountant, so he deals with money all the time, but we didn't talk about money. Um, and I remember, for example, I when I grew up, I used to shop at Lidl's Lidl's, you could walk to Lidl's, this was Liddles when it wasn't cool. So I remember there was a bag that you you get Lidl's bag, you pay for it, you don't want to be walking the street, it's not in your street cred. I remember one time my mum sent me to Lidl's to get oil, just common oil. She said, take the bag. I said, No, I'm gonna carry it. I put on my hoodie when I've got I've got the bottle of oil. You know the hoodie, you can put your hands in the pocket. I put the oil in there.

unknown: 5:33

Carrying it.

SPEAKER_00: 5:34

In there, just in the in that little patch, you know where you put in your hands carrying it in there. Ah, did Papa not pull me over? What's in your pocket? After now, this is the first, this is my first ever interaction. And I just thought, it's because I'm poor. Do you remember how old you were? I was I was like 13, 14, literally, and they just pulled me over. What's in your thing? I pulled out a bottle of oil, they laughed.

SPEAKER_05: 5:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 5:56

They laughed. All right, mate, don't worry, you could go on. And I was shook, like me, I just go to the shop for my mum. And I just remember I never forget in my head, I was thinking, ah, it's because I'm poor. Because I'm poor, you look at just treat me like this. If I could go to Sainsbury's, like it would be different. I could walk with Sainsbury's bag, but I could, you know what I mean? And then and I and these are the types of things where you just think, I felt like for me growing up, like money was access. So I remember from that day I said, I'm not gonna be poor. No matter what. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but me, I'm not gonna be poor because I cannot live like you guys, and um, yeah, we're here today.

SPEAKER_05: 6:30

Wow, it really does impact like how how you view money and how you want to actually have a relationship with money going forward. Has anyone's upbringing impacted that whether it's just what you learn at home or do the opposite of what you learn at home?

SPEAKER_02: 6:45

Well, I grew up, I went to private school when I was younger, but my parents couldn't really afford it. But because we were like Northern Ireland, for anyone who doesn't know, it's like a 99.9% white country, or at least it was whenever I was growing up. No, I think it's a bit more diverse, but when I was growing up, I was like, it was my my sister and I were the only black people in our school. So my parents thought, okay, if we send our kids to private school, they'll have a better chance at life. Like, hopefully the teachers will treat them better. They didn't really, but I'd say I learned a lot of positive lessons through going to private school, but because of that, my parents spent a lot of their income on our school fees. So when I'm going to school, and most of my friends' parents are pulling up in like Range Rovers, Mercedes, fancy cars. My parents aren't. So I really saw like, I'm like, okay, how am I here in the same space as all my friends? But my friends' houses are like 10 times bigger than our house. But then I'm also different as well, because I'm the only black kid in the school, too. So I think navigating that was really difficult when I was younger. I'd say that's probably my first like memory of like money and kind of like trying to like that's the first time I understood, okay, I don't have as much money as everybody else, or like my parents don't, or like things like that. And navigating that growing up was pretty difficult.

SPEAKER_01: 8:01

It's interesting hearing Angel talk about that because I had a very similar experience. So I went to private school from year six to year nine, but I got in on a scholarship. So they took money off of the school fees. Um, so what that meant was I went to a school with a lot of rich kids, but I didn't have as much money as them. And I I remember like being in year seven and kids being picked up by like their dad's Ferrari and stuff, and then I'm just getting on the P13 bus with like my school bag and stuff. So uh that's that's uh one of the experiences I had. And then in terms of the unspoken rule, money was always uh equal to work. So it was if you want to make money, then you have to get good grades. You need to get a good job so you can work for someone so that they can then pay you a salary. And so I equated money with like doing well at school, uh, which is a bit strange now because I now run my own business, but the entrepreneurial and investment stuff didn't come until much later.

SPEAKER_05: 9:03

I think there's there's a lot, especially the school element. You both both your answers made me think about myself. So I went to public school. I went to public school and I went to a Catholic public school actually, and I was on free school mills. So my parents used to work, but you know, I was on free school mills, and to me back then, I'm from Newham. It wasn't really anything different. Majority of my class were in free school mills, it was kind of the norm, so I didn't feel any different. However, it was growing up, I think the unspoken rule again was similar to you, wrote to me, was that education helps you to actually yeah, equals money because my parents didn't go to university, my parents actually dropped out, nearly they went to college, so they wanted, they looked at their kids and said, right, you guys are gonna go and you guys gonna make so much money, become a doctor, lawyer, something like that, and earn loads of money, and that's where your wealth is gonna come from. So I think it was a lot of pressure on myself to do that. So that is kind of it's it did begin to shape how I viewed money. I thought, right, okay, I've got good grades, and then you go to university, and then you get your degree, and then you can make loads of money. That was where I linked everything to. And I think it's great hearing everyone to see what money actually looks like in our household.

SPEAKER_00: 10:09

I remember it was cool, everybody was on free school meals because there were in our there's different tickets. So when you get to the lunch line, if you're on free school meals, their ticket register, you get one colour ticket. If you paid for lunch, you get another colour ticket. And so we and again, sometimes in the UK, it's almost like a race to the bottom. So we were all just celebrating, like, yeah, we're all on free school meals. And then I remember my dad got a promotion and his salary just took him like a grand over, and now I had to get the paid. It was so embarrassing.

SPEAKER_02: 10:38

See, that's so interesting because it's like the complete opposite for me. It was like all my friends, whenever they've been given lunch money, like 10-15 quid lunch money every day, and I'm like being sent to school with like ham sandwich. I'm like, it's like I wonder how that would have like shift like your perception, like being ever and being on that level playing field compared to like being the odd one, right? But the other way around, like, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 11:02

Yeah, no, they used to tease us, they used to tease us.

SPEAKER_04: 11:05

I think that kind of shows that like I think school in itself, I always say you have to always think about in the context of where um the school is placed. I think schools are like mini societies, so like that's you know, school was clearly a school that was you know predominantly within the same social class, except to be very uh fancy with the language, you know what I'm saying? But then your but then yours reflected the society that you were in at the time, so I think that's probably why there was such a difference and stuff, and then that, but I think I don't know, just by listening to that as well, because even with me, um, my school was uh I wasn't just calling ghetto, channel, like it was ghetto, okay. Um, but I think even with that, like um everybody that was on free school meals and stuff, but then if you had like, oh, don't actually pay for my own fee, like, oh wow, like all the popular people come and like we're gonna pay for like you know, like all the meals and stuff as well. So I think that class element is really, really interesting, and I think that's what the school system does as well, where it's like it kind of percepts your sorry, it kind of shapes your early perceptions of like your class, your yourself, you know, and I think that's where money comes into it as well. And I think school and upbringing really does play a part into like the foundation of that.

SPEAKER_00: 12:07

Yeah, and also your values. Like I remember like going to therapy and really talking about it and the fact how much like I love McDonald's because I couldn't have it.

SPEAKER_03: 12:16

Yeah, oh wow.

SPEAKER_00: 12:17

Um, how much I must drive a nice car because my dad used to my dad's car was so ugly that I used to the first two days of school I made in part down the road, and then after that, even though I didn't know how to get to school, I just worked it out and just took bus because I re because I couldn't let anyone see my dad's car. Do you know what I mean? And so then your car became and I remember like actually going through therapy and working out that I you take you place so much value on these things because of the trauma of what you've been through, especially if you've been bullied or you know you've been embarrassed. Like back in the day, they they would know what like when everyone's taking out their walkers, I'd have the little Lidl's version. They'd be like, oh Lidl's mate, like do you know what I mean? I remember I had basketball trains. Kids are so mean. I had basketball trainers, they were called Oscars. I was called Oscars for two years, they called me Oscar. Oscar for two years, straight. Do you know what I mean? And so it's like these things make you feel like I need to fight against the system, like I've got to make money anyway. And the problem is that luckily for me, I found a way to do it because of my personality, whatever I was able to monetize that. But for a lot of the men, it's straight to the roads because it just makes you feel like, okay, how do I get money now? Like, I'm not I'm not learning in school, I'm not gonna be, and I grew up in Tower Hamlets, East London. This is where grime started. So at my time, like you're either gonna be a grime MC or a footballer. Ashley Cole went to my school, so everybody was either a footballer or you're gonna do grime. So if you didn't do those two things, you're on the ropes because that's the thing that's celebrated. And so so many of my my friends now, they've finished doing prison. Some of them, most of them are gone, like because the the urge to make money at a young age, and then the responsibility as well, because now you're at home and mum needs dad's not around, mum's working jobs, bills are piling in, you now feel pressure at 14, 15 to go out and make money. A paper round ain't giving you the money you want to try and make.

SPEAKER_05: 14:04

100%, and I think that's that is definitely a community that I saw as well. Where I'm from, that was very much so, yeah. If you weren't, you know, going to music or some sort of athlete, you were definitely turning to the wrong type of things in life. But I want to come back to you, Angel, because your upbringing was obviously slightly different from Northern Island, and you have a mixed background. So, how did that impact you growing up?

SPEAKER_02: 14:28

Because of the school I went to, I would have associated, I would have placed a lot of value on like material things to show me that I had like to show that you had money. So, like whenever you were even talking about your dad's car, like I used to ask my parents to pick me up later from school. I don't mind waiting half an hour, if yeah, or like even at some point my dad ended up getting like this secondhand ball vo. And I was like, I used to be like, Dad, can you pick me up from school today? Can you pick me up from school? So I used to associate, and even my like kids I went to school, if they would have had like the nice rucksacks, like the nice backpacks, the Nike bags, all this type of stuff. So I associated money with what it looked like you had, like material things, what car you drove, what were you wearing. I used to hate when it came to like non-school uniform day. To be honest, like my parents did a pretty good job, uh, they never made us feel like we didn't have as much, which I don't know. I feel like that was probably a good and bad thing, like probably a good thing at the time for me as a child, but it definitely skewed my perception of money when I got older. Like sometimes it's better to look like you have even when you don't. I think that's what that taught me when I was younger. Whereas even now I am trying to unlearn that. Um, but yeah, like my parents, like they tried to make it look like we were on the same level playing field as my friends, even when we weren't, which I think probably wasn't good financially. So that's probably like something to dive deeper into as well. But yeah, I definitely think like I had to unlearn that materialist mindset, like as I grew up. And I think I did, to be honest, like I just kind of had to take myself out of that environment, and then you have to ask yourself what really matters, all this type of stuff, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:08

That actually reminds me because um yeah, I went to a school which was actually like 99.99999% black. Um, so it's actually the complete opposite of yours. Um, and I remember non-school uniform day was the worst like day of my life. Um I never knew what to wear. Yeah, like and I remember um I went to um I went to Wood Green and then some guy was selling um Ralphie tops, so um I bought one. Looks really real anyway. Um I was walking, everybody had like Ralphie, like Ralph Lauren, which I don't know why kids and how do you who are you okay? So um I'm not saying anything guys, but yeah. And then some obviously the popular I wasn't as popular, like I was not popular at all in school. Um, and like some they were all coming up, just pulling my shirt, checking if it was real, like looking at the tags, checking it with looking at my trainers, taking it off, seeing if it's real and all that stuff as well. And I think during that time, like everybody would everybody would just be wearing like Adidash tracksuits, all that stuff, and you can really see like the hierarchy, and people, even when the uniform was on, you'll be judged. That was tests, that was examination day to see everything. So I think even that as well kind of kind of made me understand that made me understand that whole mindset of like you know, like as like equating wealth to like designer stuff and all that stuff, and I think that is actually quite like a very you know dominant culture in our community.

SPEAKER_02: 17:25

But it's such a toxic mindset because now the older I've got, I'm like you can look at someone and they could look, they could have it all on, but they have nothing in the back. And that's not even I don't think that's a lesson that you learn until you get older and you actually start talking to people. I don't I don't like pocket watching people, but like I just think being aware of that is kind of important, but like it's so interesting. Like, even like in school, I have the same thing, but a bunch of kids that I went to school if they would have like the Jack Wills, the Hollister, the Abercrombie before it came to the UK, so you know they were getting it on holiday in America. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05: 17:58

So that's the marketing aspect though, because kids are impressionable and that's very impressionable, and then they put the that impact on their parents to live up to that. So, on a topical parents, do you think your parents' relationship with money has influenced how you view money? I know you mentioned it a little bit there, Angel, with your parents kind of doing the job of making you feel like you guys had it, which had its benefits and downsides. But to everyone else, do you think your parents' relationship impacted how you view money or maybe other family members?

SPEAKER_00: 18:28

Yeah, definitely. Um, but my parents are totally different. My dad's an accountant, he budgets everything. Money does. My dad is such an accountant that yet he he would do the shopping, the weekly shopping. Like, you know, look normally like Africa man, you send your wife will go, ah no, no, no, I don't want you to go because I know what you're gonna spend. So he used to do the grocery shopping himself just to make sure that no extra money was spent. Like he had calculated everything. And then my mum was, we're gonna fake it till we make it. Like, we're poor in this house, but when we step outside, nobody's gonna know. And Sunday was our fashion show. So Sunday we had to try and make sure that we looked in a certain way, and I thought it was for God. Then I realised it was for the church members. I learned as I got older that God had nothing to do with why we had to look good on Sunday. Like, do you know what I mean? Even though she was telling us that. And so, yeah, I feel like they were totally opposite. So there would be arguments, like, because my mum, if she can buy something, she'll hustle. My mum, she worked as a dinner lady, she also could do hair, um, she also did like babysitting. Anything she could do to hustle and make extra money on the side, she would do. Um, whereas my dad, he was just very strict with money, like, you don't need that. No, you don't need that. Oh, that's not important. And so it was just you wouldn't even ask my dad. You would know the answer is no. If you think about it, you've already heard him say no. So don't ask him. So you've always asked my mum, and then in the morning is when you would find out whether she was able to persuade him to allow you to do stuff, and and so again, there's always my whole upbringing with money was so negative. Yeah, money was such a such a bad thing because money money was the reason why my life just wasn't the way I wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_05: 20:10

That that is very impactful. I know my parents definitely had an impact on me, but I think I've shared before that my parents actually taught me about money, they actually went out of their way, and I think it's because of them. They had me in the early 20s, but they were together in their late teens, and they'd gone through a lot of debt as a couple. And my dad worked to pay off his debt, and then he worked to pay off my mum's debt because they were gonna have me. So I think they didn't want their kids to go through that, so they worked and they said, Okay, what can we do? We're gonna start those lessons, and there was a lot of conversation around money, and I think similar to a lot of people, my parents did do a good job, like even though I knew we're on free school mills and we didn't have a lot of money. I also knew in the same breath that we could get stuff, and my parents always wanted to enforce that lesson that you know we work for your money, things don't aren't handed to you, you have to work, and then you can get things. But I had the pleasure of having gamers for parents, and that's what you get when you have young parents. So, one thing we always had in house was the brand new games console. Always the new games console came out, it was in my house first. The only difference was that my dad was a hustler, so I remember vividly the Nintendo Wii. Remember, remember Nintendo Wii? Yeah, yeah, loved that console. We got it on the fourth try. My dad bought the console, he managed to queue up, got it. As soon as it came out, I was like, Oh my gosh, yes. He said he's selling it, he sold it, made profit. Bought another one, did it. He did it four times until the fifth one was ours. That was finally ours. But that it was always that hustle mentality, like you can get what you want, you but as long as you work for it, you've actually got to put in some work to get that. That's what I kind of was raised around.

SPEAKER_00: 21:39

You always made me feel so old.

SPEAKER_05: 21:41

Why?

SPEAKER_00: 21:42

Because you said you started with Nintendo Wii.

SPEAKER_05: 21:43

No, I didn't start with Nintendo Weed. I started with Game Boy SP actually. Game Boy SP, GameCube, the PlayStation number one. See, I'm not I'm not, I'm a 90s baby. I'm kind of hanging on to that 90s. Okay, we're kind of clinging on to that. I'm clinging on to that, but I'm still a 90s baby, still a 90s baby. It's been great to hear about your upbringing. Now we want to bring it to where we are today. So we're on to the next section. We're gonna call this where we are now. So I'm gonna throw out this question and ask everyone is hustling a part of our culture, or do you think it's a response to inequality? What's the difference between like hustling and just working hard? Yeah, I think I would say, in my definition, working hard is you know, you have your ambitions, you have your goals, you want to actually do well in whatever you're doing. I think hustling is every moment of every day. You know, that kind of hustle mentality where we all have the same 24 hours. I'm gonna work as much as I can, I'm gonna have maybe my shift in the morning, then I'm gonna have my day job, then I'm gonna do something at night, then I've got a side hustle. That's what I call like hustling to try and make money.

SPEAKER_02: 22:39

I always say I'm a hard worker, but I try to avoid hustle culture. And it's like almost like I'm very focused on like wellness. So I do a lot of content creation around like wellness and stuff, and even I try to bridge that in with me as a creative and the creative industry. And I like to say, like, the more healed I become, the less ambitious I am. And not in that type of way, because I still have goals and everything I want to achieve, but I'm just not out here saying I need 50 million in the bank and I need to make that 50 million happen like right now. Um I just think like you need to measure up what does success mean to you because that's what hustling is, right? Like you have an idea of what there's something that you want to achieve, something that you think is gonna make you happy. So I think it's about weighing up what that means to you and how you want to spend your days, I guess.

SPEAKER_04: 23:25

Um I think I think things always come um back to like energy. So like I don't sound like energy and like vibes, but I mean like um what I mean by that is I think um hustling um kind of comes from a form of lack, so you're reacting to the lack that you have, and that's is you know you're then put into survival mode. Um, but then you can put in that same energy um and just have a different mindset. If you literally work from an abundance mindset, then you're actually able to because I feel like regardless, like you have to work hard, you have to put in the work regardless, and in order to attract anything, but um, I think hustling, depending on how you define it, just I think hustling comes from lack and survival, which I think is a result of the injustice and you know the societal um positioning that you're in.

SPEAKER_02: 24:10

No, I think the point about energy is such a good point because there's sometimes like say if even if I'm DJing or if I'm working on my music, I could spend like eight hours recording and doing something, and people be like, Oh, you're really hustling. And I'm like, no, I'm just I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And I'm like, I'm just I guess I could call it working hard, but I'm just like I'm enjoying them eight hours. That they're not eight hours of hustling to me. So I think it is energy, like it's an energy thing.

SPEAKER_04: 24:32

A great example of that is like, for example, like I used to um work with like kids and um like I used to I love the kids, not bad person, but like I used to like work in schools and stuff, and and then afterwards I'll go and do security, then afterwards I'll go and do like just other freelance stuff at the same time. That's what that's also at the same time when I was doing my videos. So I was hustling, but then it came from a place of light, and I wasn't really like you know manifesting the result of that, but then now I just do content creation full time. Even some of my old school friends, they're like, you know, Elaine, like you know, calm down because you know, like you're more than your purpose, you know, like you're gonna burn out, you're gonna do something. I'm like, no, I might this is the most energy I've ever had in my life, and this is the most money I've ever made in my life. So even though I was doing more work because I guess I was hustling, I gotta dis and gotta that because of the energy that I was um I was in, because I was literally like attracting lack, lack, lack. So because that was happening, like it wasn't really coming. So like I think like that's really, really similar.

SPEAKER_01: 25:20

I think if we unpack the question, and uh Elaine's kind of alluded to this, um, it seems like you're saying that if inequalities exist, uh whether through wealth or income, then culturally you're more likely to uh like do a side hustle or start business to make up for that gap. But if that was the case, then the wealthiest ethnic group in this country, which is the Indian ethnic group, wouldn't hustle, but they're actually hugely entrepreneurial. Like nearly every single uh corner shop, fuel station, hair shop is run by uh people from the South Asian community. Um if you define entrepreneurship as someone who takes a risk in order to make money, um then uh I think that uh the reason why uh uh we hustle is because our parents are risk takers.

SPEAKER_03: 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:18

So they left their countries. Like my my mum left the country she grew up in when she was in her early 20s with me and moved here, and that's like a hugely risky thing to do.

unknown: 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

Um, and I think that that's what then gets passed on to you as a child of an immigrant. I think that's the reason why we hustle. I don't think it's to do with lack or not having enough money. I think we just come from a risk-taking culture.

SPEAKER_00: 26:44

Yeah, I think for me, my my hustling comes from like not being I I had to I I didn't unpack it until I went to therapy, but it was like actually I thought, how dare I say no? Like I have to say yes because I come from nothing. So if someone says, Oh, E man, we got this school that wants you to come and talk for 150 pounds, I'd be like, 150 pounds, but like these times I'm making like free care video, so what the hell am I doing running for 100? But because I come from do you understand? Like, it's like how can I say no? If I say no, then this opportunity might not come again. And again, it's because of that place, like Elaine's saying, coming from lack. Because you come from a place where you feel like the opportunities are are limited, that scarcity mindset. When you now say, actually, no, there's enough, there'll be there'll be other schools that will pay me what I want, there'll be other opportunities out there. But because you come from, and again, you are the first doing it. Yeah, when I told when I told my mum that um I'm not going back to the bank and I'm gonna do content online, you I must I might might as well swore for her. Like I'm I'm it was like the most disrespectful. Every day my mum phoned me, she said, Amanda, I'm praying for you that God will change your mind and change your heart, and you'll go and get a job. Like, when I every day for I'm talking about two years, then one day she switched on her television, I was on that television after that day and the WhatsApp group that she got from all my aunties, we just saw a man on the TV, we just I never heard it ever again. And so a lot of the time it's like we because you're coming from nothing, you're like, actually, how do I know who do I compare myself to? How do I know what's enough? How do I know what's good? And that's why it's so much great now that, you know, for example, like Timmy, yourself, like we um Bola, like we share, we talk, we talk numbers, we talk what we're doing, we talk, we talk, oh, we're we're not doing this, we are doing this, uh I charge this, and because of that, we now have an ecosystem where we know our value. Because a lot of the time, if you just work in a silo by yourself and you don't have anyone to compare to, you're just getting robbed. Because these men, they want to pay as little as possible. And more time, I've seen it where I've had friends on the other side do similar like finance stuff to me, their initial start, what they're offering them, is higher because they just assume as a black creator, yeah, we're gonna accept less. And so until we start to actually look at ourselves and say, actually, you know what, we we are talking and we know our standard, and we we're in a position where we can say no. And that's where I it wasn't until I could create income streams for myself that I didn't I don't need your brand deal. Your brand deal doesn't feed my family, so I can say no to it because I know I'm we're living with or without you. And once I was on that place, then I can then say yeah, okay. But before that, it was oh, where's the next one? I was talking for free for years. Years same. Talking for free for years, and you know what I mean, and so it's it we're coming from we're coming from a lot because again, we don't value ourselves.

SPEAKER_05: 29:45

I think for me, hustling has definitely been a part of my journey. My parents, no, my grandparents, sorry, came over from the Caribbean. I remember my dad actually, so my grandparents were both unfortunately passed away, but my dad found my grandma's boat passport. For when she came over from Dominica over to the UK. It was incredible. It was incredible. Did you frame that?

SPEAKER_04: 30:06

You shouldn't that book?

SPEAKER_05: 30:07

I literally, I thought it was incredible. We found out because she never told us when she was alive, but we found out that she actually came from Dominica, went round to Geneva, and then came to the UK. But she did all that in her 20s and then had all her kids here. Yeah, no boat. Yeah, yeah, it was a very long boat, many, many days. But she came over here to have a better start. And obviously, had nine kids. How she did that is beyond me, because that's insane. Had nine kids here. Obviously, my dad is one of them. But for me, like I said earlier, my parents didn't go to college, so they kind of put all not necessarily pressure, but all of that expectation on myself and my brother. And I remember one day, my parents, my mum always said to me, There's no ceiling, you can do whatever you want. People are gonna say you can't do it, but you can, you can just put your mind to it. But I remember one day I said to my mum, like, Oh, everyone's gonna know our last name one day. And like I said to my dad, like they'll all know our last name. And I said it in passing, but then I realized I had to bring it to life because even though I have a lot of cousins and stuff, I said it's that, it's it's on me, and I'm I'm glad that I've done it, but I think because of that, I said, Right, I've got to make a name for myself. So for a year straight in the beginning of my career, I used to do the radio every week at 5am. Disgusting, disgusting. If you know me, I'm not a morning person. I did it every week for a year, unpaid, because I said I have to make a name for myself. People don't respect me. I started at 21. People don't respect me in the space, and I have to earn that respect, and that was a lot of hustling. Now I'm too tired. Now I have to pick and choose because I realise doing more doesn't always equate to getting more. Exactly. You know, putting your time into the right things is where you actually get that return. And I'm so glad because I like my sleep. I like to rest, I like my sleep, and I'm a much better person for it. So I think these are all amazing conversations and the kind of answer you've all given me. Now I want to come to the idea of black tax. This is something that comes up a lot, but I want to start with you, Timmy, because I think maybe you can give us a little breakdown of what black tax is and we kind of talk about what we think.

SPEAKER_01: 31:52

I I would define it as the financial obligations we feel as a community to our family and friends, like to our community. And um it can result in you having to give money to parents, to grandparents, to send money back home. Um we know that the African diaspora is one of the biggest remitters back to the continent, like more so than like even foreign aid from from the UK. Um and yeah, it can kind of squeeze you from both ends because you're the first to have uh maybe be earning the amount of money that you're earning, but then a significant proportion of that's then going back to your community.

SPEAKER_05: 32:34

So, on the topic of that, thank you for explaining it. What does that look like in everyone's lives here if that does affect you? Because it might not, but if it does, what is your experience of it and how do you manage it? Because I know it is a big thing, sending money home. I mean, I don't think it's as big for me. I'm from a Caribbean background. Uh I had this conversation with my dad recently. I said to him, Why don't we have that pressure of sending money home? My dad said, Because everyone's moved out of the Caribbean, that's probably why. So it's not as big on us, at least not in my family, but for any of you who may experience it or have experienced it, how do you manage it?

SPEAKER_04: 33:05

Um, I think my mum is, yeah, my mum has sent a lot of money back home. Um, and I think when I was younger, I think I always had this feeling when I was like, Do they like you for you or do they like you because you're sending money back home? Um, I think I was kind of like reading um like some messages saying that, oh, you know, we're hungry, this and that, da da da da. And I said, This family member is clearly well fed. I mean, she looks very stable in her stature, not to be rude. But I'm just saying that I'm like, I kind of felt like, you know, I don't know if it's just a lot of like guilt, you know, that survivor's guilt and stuff. I don't know if it's like, oh, because you you've managed to like do this for yourself, now you have to do this for us, but then I'm like, are they actually like picking themselves up? I don't know. For me, I feel like as human beings, um, I feel like if someone's just giving you stuff, you're not gonna really want to like work for it because oh well, I'm just gonna get and also if you think about that, the exchange rate as well, the currency as well, like you know, um having the pound sent to you, and then that just multiplies as well. I think sometimes I don't know, I always just kind of felt like I'm like, I think people are just kind of content. Um, oh you know, you've moved on and then you have to now, I think that guilt and obligation is just what kind of like uh economic, like in the exchange. That's just how I have always kind of seen it. But I think for me, because I also get those requests as well, uh, I don't I don't really respond and stuff too. But I mean if you're injured, I need to see the hospital files, I need to see everything. You need to see the receipts, the receipts, and I need to see everything, and then I'm you know what I might even do, but even that one, oh this, this, them, that, because I'm like as if I'm okay. If I was to think about the other way around, you know, like I'm back in Ghana, it's sunny every day, and you don't even know what a season of depression is, you know. And I also feel like they also need to realize that, like, I don't know if I'm just at this point venting in therapy, but yeah, they also need to realize that like the UK is hard, you know. You know, we're not in an environment, a lot of the family members abroad that are sending money, they're also facing isolation, working two jobs, you know, it's not just gold congo, like you know, gold pastures and stuff and everything. And I just kind of feel like for me, I think the best way for me to, I mean, I did say I'll be looking at receipts and stuff, but I just kind of want to really change that pattern and stuff. But I think it's also a generational thing. I mean, they were raised in a time where guilt and obligate, you know, you just come back from just being colonised, like we just got independence like what 60 years ago, and my mum's 73. So she was so I think it's just a really um, I think she's a cultural thing that we have to learn, and I think that's something that I'm really because I still have family members even now or suffering me, you know. So yeah, that's just how I'm kind of just dealing with it. Receipts.

SPEAKER_00: 35:27

Yeah, I think for me, the way I've the way it's been for me is you know, I got younger sisters, so my my sister after me is five years, um, and then after her two years, so I got a five-year gap and a seven-year gap. So obviously, like I said, when I went to school, there was a lot of bullying and so forth. So I made sure when my sisters went to secondary school, I bought them kickers, I bought them a bag, I bought them the coat. Every year, every year, like I had that pressure. My sisters went to uni, I bought them laptops for their uni, I drove them to uni, I'll stock their fridge, I'll go, I'll send them. Like, this is just my sisters that I live with, just behind me. Then on top of that, there's my mum, she had arthritis in her knee, so she couldn't she couldn't work, so then I had to give my mum money um on top. Then my mum's brother died in Nigeria. Two daughters pay for them to go to I pay for them to go to school because you have to pay to go to school. Um, then I found out that one of them got pregnant, she didn't tell us, so I was paying for a school, she went over that school. Then I then I was like, okay, you need to do a course. Then I paid for a course. Like, when I tell you, it does, this is just me. I'm not even I'm not even saying it like I just know what my own my own issues, do you know what I mean? And so it's just like with family so much, even like I give my and then like you said, I think they got such a they feel such a burden and responsibility to the to their siblings, to their family members, and they don't have no shame. There's one thing like we hear, we've been westernized a little over there. The shame is out of the window. There's zero shame. So they will just they will literally call you, pretend like they care, get money, you don't hear from them. When the money runs out, ah, how are you doing? Like, I could be there, it's been three weeks, I could have been four weeks, months. You you just want money. There's no time you call that it's just to check up. There's always a call that requires somebody's in hospital, something has broken, something how are we living? How are we budgeting? How are we saving? So when you then talk about building wealth, I'm telling you, Billy is not sending money home to Leeds. Like Leeds is sending money to Billy.

SPEAKER_04: 37:31

And there's so much money just leaking, legal, like you can't, it's like just a constant, so you end up staying in the same like economic position because you're getting money out. Do you know what I mean? I think even like when my mum was like unwell, and I realized that all of those people that she was sending money to, where were they? Where was the support? Where was it? It wasn't there, and I'm just like, yeah, they just see you as a bank because you have access to the pound. It adds so much stress and stuff, and I think it does keep us financially stagnant, and you're not able to even leave and and also another thing. So I'm actually gonna be.

SPEAKER_05: 37:59

This is your therapy session.

SPEAKER_04: 38:01

But even another thing, even so, for example, you'd be sending my mom. Sorry, I love you, Mum, but like you'd be sending money like back home to people. But when I needed fresh shoes, oh no, I don't have money, when I needed this, I don't have money, but then everybody else is getting stuff like, and I don't I don't know, like even like what that was like all about as well. But yeah, I think it just it just you know, because then you're not able to pour into you know, if that money that was going out, if it went into the family, you can leave an inheritance, you could pour into kids and you can change their mindset and stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 38:25

That's definitely not it's definitely not a unique experience. I mean, like I said, I've not had it personally because I just don't think in my Caribbean household it's like that anyway. But I definitely have spoken to people who whose households are like that. Like there was there was someone that I knew who was struggling to make their rent every month, and when you actually dove into their finances, it was because half of their income every month was going back home. And I said, Okay, that's great. You know, you feel warm in your heart, but your roof over your head might disappear at any moment because you haven't figured out your own finances. So I think you're right. I think it can, if not dealt with correctly, can lead to some stagnation in people's finances.

SPEAKER_01: 39:00

You've got to do what they tell you to do on airplanes, you've got to wear your own oxygen mask first when it comes to money. Because you could leave a night, invest for a few years, leave it, and have built enough wealth to support more people. But if you're constantly chipping away at the start of your wealth building journey, you're not gonna get anywhere. And you just have to do what you need to do for yourself in the first instance, I think.

SPEAKER_05: 39:22

Absolutely, I agree. We have got a diverse range of people on this couch. So I think it's a great question to ask everyone. How do you think Gen Z and millennials approach money differently than older generations?

SPEAKER_02: 39:37

Do you think there is a difference? Oh, I think it's different. I feel like I'm not too educated on this, so let me just speak freely and hopefully everyone can make sense of this. But I feel like back in the days, like there was a lot of emphasis on like, okay, save up, you get a house, have a family, da-da-da, all this, that in the third. Whereas nowadays, like, I think a lot of people in our generation like kind of put buying a house even to the back of their mind because they're like, We did they don't even think they're able to buy a house. That's what it's like for a lot of people I know anyway. Um, I find a lot of people live a lot more frivolously with their money now because they're just like this is the only live once mindset thing, which I think they didn't have back in the day, but that's very much a thing now. And sometimes I can be a bit guilty of, oh, it's gonna come back, so let me just spend it. Um, but yeah, that might be it.

SPEAKER_05: 40:25

No, I agree. I definitely do see a lot more of that kind of living for the now and not necessarily thinking about the future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:31

No, I think back in the day the thing was about family, and I think that's one of the biggest problems you have in the in the UK now. We don't, I get okay, you know, being married and have isn't the the be-w and end all and did it, but having that back then it was, you know, get you get married, you have your family, and then you have kids, then you raise your kids. Like there was a there was a route, and that was valued more than the car or whatever. Like actually just having your own family was was most important. Do you know what I mean? And I think we've moved away from that. Our generation, like, we're independent, we don't need sometimes. I don't even know if man even like women anymore. I don't know, like man just like mandem. I don't know what's going on. Like, do you know? Like, it's just it's just weird to me. Like, do you know what I mean? And it's like we've got to this point where um we just we're so independent and it's just about enjoying now. And there's not even legacy, when we talk about generational wealth, like it's almost like a bad word now. Man, I'm like, I don't care. I see people talk, I don't care about generations then. Like, I don't know what they're gonna be. Like, whereas before it was your pride and joy, like, what can I leave? Like, I need to try and leave something for my kids, and you took pride in if it was a house, if it was um, you know, savings or investing or whatever it may be. You wanted to try and what's my legacy was an important thing. There's not legacy right now is how many followers have I got. That's the that's what's important. Like, do you know what I mean? And so this um like social currency has become wealth, and so now we value the like we what one we care what strangers think about us.

SPEAKER_04: 41:58

I think it's more about opportunity. Um, I think me as a woman, I think, you know, my mum started having kids when she was like 23, which is wild. But like, I think so all of my family, oh you know, Adra, when are you going to get married?

SPEAKER_03: 42:10

You know, you're 27 and but I'm like, I'm trying to get my money.

SPEAKER_04: 42:15

I'm trying to, you know, I'm saying that I'm I need to make sure that, you know, I'm I have my house, I am, I've moved social classes before I come and pop anybody out, and that's my mindset. But I don't know if that's more of like a Gen Z mentality. I think me as a woman, I'm like, you know, I have more opportunity, I can earn money, I'm in this digital age. I just want to just just like benefit from it, and I really want to just change like my my earning potential and everything so that when I have my like children, then they're in a completely different social class and stuff. And I don't think I've really had that. Um I don't think the women, the women in my family, they were just, you know, like from before, don't really have that much opportunity um as I do now, and I'm just taking it in. So even though everybody's wondering why am I not married, I'm like, listen, like, you know, God is gonna bring that person, but for now, I'm not trying to, I'm not like I'm I would rather like you know, look for money, look for not even money, but like really just build the foundation, build my legacy, build my name, and make sure that that is so solid and I'm I'm at a good place before I come and be, you know, looking for a man and having kids and this and that. I feel like that will make the other like so much better, and that's that's my mentality.

SPEAKER_00: 43:16

Do you see it as a burden? What the like if you were to like getting married and having kids, do you see it as a burden to your career or burden to your progress of what you're trying to build?

SPEAKER_04: 43:25

Um I would say, yeah, because obviously I feel like um obviously I get pregnant, I'm gonna, you know, gonna be, I don't know what's gonna happen to me during the pregnancy and stuff as well, but I don't want to face the amount of guilt, financial guilt that I had when I was growing up. I I guess I also do have my own trauma, like as I was saying, so I don't, I don't want, I don't want my my you know, my my children to be to be feeling guilty. Oh, you spent 30 pounds on this, and how can you spend 10 pounds on that? And how I don't want that, you know, you're you're such a child. I don't think anybody, obviously the the my children will know the value of the pounds. Of course, of course. But I don't want them feeling because then what happens even as an adult? I'm like, oh my god, how oh my god, this wig, oh my god, that's so oh my god, 70 pounds for lashes, blah, blah. And I'm like, where where has that come from? And then now I feel bad about reinvesting into like things when it comes to my business and this, it it multiplies, it multiplies, and I don't want my children to be going through any of that. So I want my children to just be like, oh, you know, I'm I want I will still make them work for certain things, but like I don't want them to feel like it's impossible, I don't want them to go through scared, I don't want to repeat that. And even says in the Bible that um, you know, like a good parent is someone that leaves um an inheritance for their children, and that's what I definitely want to do because I think it's very easy for me to have kids. Very, very easy for me to like have some um have somebody, but I want that I just so I wouldn't really see it as a burden, but I know that I want I want my kids to grow up in a nice house, be you know, let that know that they are secure, know that they're this. And sometimes I don't like, and that's the same thing, even with my mum, like my mum coming from Ghana, coming to um the UK to start a new life. That was her version of that. Now, now now when I was born, I'm in England, I have access to the pound. I have so everyone, every all of our parents did that that same thing. So, this is my version of again having that same hustle mentality, taking that risk and making sure that okay, cool, okay. So, my mum's done the first leg, I'm gonna just carry the button and then carry it on. So, that's yeah, why I'm kind of holding it on.

SPEAKER_01: 45:11

So, yeah, a few things have happened um between the Gen Z and millennial generation and the generations before. Definitely in the 20th century, your money could go a lot further. So, on an average salary, you could just go to school, go to uni, and then buy a house. The uh houses cost four times your average salary um a few decades ago. Now it's like over 10 times or whatever. So when you are earning money and you're like, I'll never be able to buy a house with this, I'll never be able to start a family, you are going to become more focused in the present and just enjoy your money now. That's one thing. I think it's really interesting what you said, Elaine, about um like choice. So another thing that has changed is that millennial and Gen Z women have a lot more choice than previous generations. Um like we know that there is the the birth rate in this country is like at record lows, and a lot of people attribute this to the cost of living, but it's actually due to the mass introduction of contraception into society. Like the birth rate fell the minute we gave women autonomy over their bodies. So uh when you come to the present day, you're gonna have younger women saying, I'm choosing to earn more money rather than just have loads of kids like our parents did. But then also uh society has become more capitalistic. So this is Iman's point, which is um we ha everyone's got phones on them, but all on social media, and so you're gonna care about what society thinks about you way more. Like back in the day, something could happen and it would just happen in a silo, but now something happens and it's on the shade borough, and everyone can see like what's happening with your life.

SPEAKER_04: 46:55

So I know that like the birth rates have gone down um since you know women have had like more opportunities and stuff, and I'm I don't know if it's kind of seen as like an obstacle or like a bad thing. I don't really think that women having more autonomy over their bodies because of the opportunities that they have. I feel like that's not really praised, or that's not really acknowledged, or that's not really seen as a good thing. It's just kind of, oh yeah, like, oh, so the birth rate's gone down because women are now able to do this. I'm like, what why is it not praised? Oh, women have opportunities, they have this and that. Oh, I guess the result is um, you know, women um, you know, having less children, but they have more opportunity, they have more, or they want to do something else with their lives, or this and that. And I don't know why that is not really praised, or why that's why that's not really you know, it's just a random question.

SPEAKER_01: 47:36

Well, firstly, women having more choice is definitely a good thing. Um the reason why it's not praised is because we live within capitalism, and capitalism has been built upon the um exploitation of people of colour, women and children as well. So the uh giving women more choice is seen as antithetical to capitalism, to economic growth, to the positions of power that men hold. That's why it's not that's why it's not praised. And the entire system is built so that uh uh women stay at home. Well, historically it was built on women staying at home, having the kids so the men could go out and work, and those children would be the next round of taxpayers and workers, with women uh being able to work as well. The the elites, the powers that be, they're like, okay, where's our next uh round of taxpayers going to come from? In this country, that's coming in the form of immigrants, which I why I think it's crazy that people are protesting immigration in the street. It's like if you kicked us all out, like the country would c very promptly collapse. Like the NHS, the care sector, all these uh things would collapse. Um also we talk a lot about how money compounds, like if you invest, you know, your money will grow like that, but human populations compound as well in both directions. So the uh number of children um is done per woman uh that a woman needs to have to keep a population the same is just over one. It's 2.1. If it's less than that, like it is in the UK, the population will collapse, and if it's more than that, the population will grow. And if the population shrinks, then that means taxes go up for everyone. Taxes go up for everyone, we need to pay more for pensions. So there's like yeah, a lot of reliance has been placed on women not having choices, basically. I don't think anyone owes their country babies, but I do think it is the role of governments and leaders to create an economy where people can have two kids. Because that would just keep the population the same. You don't need to like get people in to work and um and they're like family is important, like in relationships are important.

SPEAKER_00: 49:57

Women being at home with kids, we find it tends to be a very good thing. So I I feel like we almost say it in society like it's a bad thing. Oh, why should a woman be at home with kids? But I think someone should be at home. Having a parent at home makes a big difference. If a lot of my friends had a parent at home, they wouldn't have been on the street doing nonsense that ended up leading them to a lot of bad things. So having a parent at home is important. I agree that you know society needs to be better with childcare. I've got four kids. If you know how expensive it was to put them through, it shouldn't be like that. Do you know what I mean? It should be a case of you know, it's making nursery more accessible, actually making it so that those values so we can do that. So that's that's really important. Having more flexible working so that you can so that it can be done so that people and and both husband and wife or pet pet father and mother can use their work at working hours to work from home and be able to pick up the kids and so forth. We we should be in a society that encourages that. So that's that's important. But I think parent a parent at home when the kids finish school is an is an important thing. And that's something that and again, even having things like play centres, that when I was at school, there was a play center. When our school finished, we went to play centre and place and when play centre finished at 6, 6:30, when work finishes at 5, a parent can get to the place. When school finishes at 3 30 and work finishes at 5 o'clock, the two are fighting one another. Do you know what I mean? So again, they don't that doesn't that that doesn't work in in the society that that we're talking about. So I think that's really important. And again, we've seen a lot of elderly people have to now come out of retirement because their pensions can't cover the cost of living. These are government issues. So when we talk about not having kids, I get it, like, no, having choices is great. But for society to work, that for people to stop work, there needs to be people working.

SPEAKER_01: 51:38

Yeah, but uh so I agree with what you're saying. But what we're realizing for the first time in human history is, and and this has always been the case, is like everyone's in this room because they were born from a woman, and it's women who decide whether people are born or not. So we actually need to listen to to women. And that's never happened before.

SPEAKER_04: 51:58

But I also feel like even the societal design of you know the pension situation that we're going through and everything, again, that's the government could eradicate that and change there's billionaires that could that could create schemes for pensioners, or I don't know. I mean, if you if you lived in like a wonderful utopia, um, you know, that wouldn't even be an issue. I don't think um, I think I think it's a system that's works for so long and they don't want to take it down because it benefits men. You keep women dependent um on the man, it keeps the patriarchal hierarchy intact. It's the society can work in a different way, but then will it benefit them? It's about rebuilding.

SPEAKER_05: 52:33

So with that being said, I want to move on to what the future will look like then. What does black British wealth mean to you?

SPEAKER_01: 52:40

I mean, there's the the literal definition of wealth, which is like pensions, property, financial assets, physical assets, but I actually think black British wealth is uh the community and the resources, um, ideas, and like the energy that we have. So I I did a post a few weeks ago talking about how if the 3.3 million uh people of African and Caribbean descent in this country put 300 pounds into a pot, we'd raise a billion pounds. And like that that would be the size of a FTSE 250 company and we could use that to fund ourselves. So black British wealth, it's like we have the wealth, we just need to cooperate and work together, and we could literally move mountains, we could do huge things.

SPEAKER_00: 53:33

I I love that post. We even we even discussed that post on our on our podcast, but I also think no other community is being having to think about that. The Asian communities are thinking, oh, do we have to do a pot? The white community or the British community or the American, they're not thinking, oh, we need to do a pot and put our money together to help all of us. So I think that's a another it's a pressure that we're it's easy said, and it's but it's a pressure that we're putting on ourselves that no other community has to put on themselves. Does that make sense? We don't and so and again, remember we've got systems in place that we have lack of trust. Like I'm from like I'm from Nigeria originally, even in my where I'm from in Nigeria, they've they've recently split and said, You're from that part. So even in the split, there are now even more splits. And so to the the um for us to come together is so difficult. Even look at what's happening in in Congo and how many of us are talking about it that are not from there? How many of us see something that happens, uh atrocity happens in Africa that's not in the country that you're from, and you take it as your problem? So if we can't even take our problems as one, how can we put our money as one?

SPEAKER_01: 54:49

We do put our money as one. How? Uh Notting Hill Carnival. The biggest street festival in Europe is attended by two million people and generates 400 million pounds per year.

SPEAKER_00: 55:04

And that's us putting our money as one. That's us. That's us having a big party. Yeah, but is that us putting our money as one? That's us coming together. And how much ownership do we have in that? So, yeah, we don't have the ownership. So, how can we say we're putting our money as one, but we don't own anything? This is exactly the same thing that happens, and what you're saying about the culture is exactly what our our the thing that it makes us powerful and makes us great is our culture. Our culture is beloved across the world, but we have no ownership in it. So we can't, and and you just said that you just mentioned the definition of wealth. We're talking about black wealth. So, how can there be black wealth with no ownership? The two can't go together. We must have ownership if we're gonna have wealth.

SPEAKER_01: 55:43

The reason why I I think that Notting Hill Carnival is a great example is because culture is also like wealth is anything that can be passed down. So it is money, but it's also culture, customs, traditions, and that is two million people coming together every year to celebrate Caribbean culture and centralizing money, like it literally generates hundreds of millions of pounds in area. Now, you you're saying you need to then put that into a pot, and I completely agree with that. But we do have things where we come together and all spend our monies.

SPEAKER_00: 56:16

Now, what I'm saying is we have the things that we, but it's not coming back to us. The money that is made in Nightinghill Carnival doesn't open a school in our area, it doesn't fund um our young people being able to get access to private school or better education, it doesn't help our kids that need that can't afford uniform to be able to get uniform. That none of that goes back. So we all go and dance and celebrate our culture, which is great, but the people that really benefit are the ones that own because they're the ones that are making the money. And so what I'm saying is that yes, Nottinghill Carnival is a great example, but how do we go from just having a great big party that we all love to go and enjoy? Because when it's time to dance and music and club, we're there when it's time to go to a financial conference, or when it's time to go and learn about investing, or when it we're we're missing, we're not in those rooms. So, what I'm saying is that we must move away from cheering about the fact that we go to a party and say that we need examples of how we're actually using our culture for us. Another example is in football, for example. Very prevalent. We're almost 50% in the Premier League of black players. Yet the managers, the managers are not black, the foot owners are not black, the stadium the stadium, the catering, all all of the infrastructure behind it isn't coming back to us. And so that is the problem. It's so cool to be black, but yet we're so poor. So we go to Nottinghill Carnival, we'll celebrate and enjoy, and then we're all going back to our council states in rented flats.

SPEAKER_02: 57:45

It's kind of similar, like in the music industry as well. Like, even to like hip hop, for example, like that didn't start to become popular until it was actually profitable. And who who could afford to actually buy the CDs and the vinyls? White people. So they were actually the ones, and even if you look at all the top label label execs and everything, they're all white. But it's like, how do you I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. Like, I don't know how you get around that. Because like the ones that have the ownership, they're not it's not our community.

SPEAKER_04: 58:11

I think this is just an echo of the past. It's just you know, when there's like a ripple effect. So I think um right now, unfortunately, we are the ones that have to be having these conversations to start. But like I I mean, because we just got independence again like 60 years ago, guys. Um so I think with the ownership aspects and and everything, it will come. It's just having these conversations is really, really good because then we know what to do with that.

SPEAKER_01: 58:37

There's probably someone in this room that's gonna build the you know, the limited companies, the trusts, the infrastructure, the political parties, like all that stuff will come. But we we have wealth, like it's just the non-monetary kind.

SPEAKER_04: 58:53

And even with the the pot idea, even though you did say that like it is a lot of pressure, I think because we've we've we we're we're we're behind and we need to catch up. And you know, I feel like um you know, desperate things call for desperate measures. So even if obviously things like you know, things like the you know, things like culture FM, all of these things, all of these things that we can come together, like we just step up monetizing and also kind of I guess making obviously privatized money is dope. Like, you know, I mean the people that set up these things like they enjoy it, but then also maybe public, like setting up charities, setting up stuff as well that can go into stuff yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:25

Furthermore, we wouldn't be the only only people to have to do this if you Google the words Jewish community investment fund, the whole page of groups they've been doing that for for ages.

SPEAKER_00: 59:39

The point I was saying is that I'm all for it, but we have to build on the trust and we have to start because for example, some of us can't even give£300 to our own mum and dad, let alone go and give£300 to a random fund. Then when we have done stuff where we have put money for school, for example, for it didn't materialize. When we had the money, Black Lives Matter. It didn't materialize. Like a lot of these things end up hurting the trust. But what I'm saying is that we can't be comfortable not having ownership. That needs to stop. We need to stop being happy just being consumers and turning up. We need to start actually being upset that actually I can't be happy if I don't, if we don't own it, I can't be happy with that until we're at a place where we own it. Because people are using our culture, which is to make money every single day. Like every single day. I'm on calls on TV channels where they're literally telling any pitch us anything, black culture. I do talks at I did a talk at a private school in like Surrey. They're using black slang. These are kids, the school is something like 12k a term. And they're using they sound like chunks and chunks in the man. On the do you understand? That's the slang that they our culture is so powerful, yet we own none of it. And I agree. Until we get to a point where we actually own it, we're gonna continue to allow other people to make money off us.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:05

I definitely think there's a mentality shift that needs to happen, and there's definitely an education part because I think a lot of people have come from first, second, third generation, you know, we're from this almost like survival mindset. And I did have that having grandparents who came over, you kind of think, right, we should kind of just make things happen, and you're not even thinking that far ahead to think, can we put money into building a school? Can we put money into helping a community? You're thinking about yourself because community starts at home. So you're thinking about if my household's not okay, I don't want to look anywhere else. But I definitely think you know, everyone here on this sofa, we're all kind of making strides to change that mentality and have those conversations. Obviously, this round table being one of them. And I think a lot of points have come up that have been great to explore, and hopefully everyone listening and watching will gain a lot from it. To round up this amazing discussion, I want to ask everyone if you could pass down one money lesson to the next generation, what would it be? You might want to come to you and then we're gonna go around.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:58

All right, so my my number one that I teach all my clients, everyone, is to love themselves. It's the biggest to me, that's the number one money lesson. I think we are taught money from the things that we can buy, the house that you can drive, the car that the house that you can the house that you can buy, the car that you can drive, the clothes that you wear, that that's where you take your value from. So you always need to spend, you always need new. Oh, I'm on, I'm in first class, I'm in business class, business class, you ain't even got a business. Like it's I'm not me, I'm just saying it. So for me, it's really important that we actually understand that what comes first is that we are unique, we are individual. So anything unique, anything individual is rare, and anything rare is valuable. So you're already valuable, and when you understand that you're already valuable, the way you will spend your money will be different because you don't need these clothes to make you any more worth, you're already worth everything, you're already valuable. So that is the number one money lesson.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:50

So I was really taking in that. Okay, um, I would say um always, I'll say, first of all, don't be afraid of money. I was so intimidated like about money, like when I was younger, thinking that money was just impossible, you have to work, you have to this, you have to that, you have to this, this and that, as if money is almost like an idol. And I would never ever like um like let my children like see money as an idol or for something to worship and stuff. So I'd just be like, yeah, have an abundance mindset, create value, and you will attract money and yeah, just don't really like worship it or see it as an idol, something to be intimidated by.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:21

Yeah, so on the on the wealth point, um, wealth is things like stocks and shares and um and property and stuff. But when you're starting from a position where you maybe don't have as much of those things, you do have to tap into the non-monetary sources of wealth. So that's things like education, relationships, um, how you use your time and and your health. And I do believe that if we as a community use our non-monetary sources of wealth, then the monetary wealth will come back.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:51

I would probably say knowing your worth. I know it's a bit of like a different perspective, but just like knowing your worth, especially just coming from like a self-employed creative point of view, like you don't have to work for pennies. Like know your worth, know your value. I want to encourage more transparency in the industry as well. Um, so I think that's just something that comes from you being a bit more transparent with how you're doing, encouraging that transparency from your friends, from your peers. And I think we'd probably all learn a lot more as a community when it comes to that financially as well.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:24

I agree. And then my point, I think, would probably be sort of trying to keep up with the droneses. That's what I'd all like to pass down. I think there's a lot of people who, as we've mentioned on this in this conversation, who buy cars, who display wealth because they think that's how you garner attraction or you garner friends or whatever. And I always say to people that people only say cars nice once, twice if you're lucky. So if you spent money to try and impress people, it's it's not worth it. So that's probably one thing I pass down. Thank you so much, everyone. This has been such a great discussion. We have gotten through a lot more than I anticipated, but I think this is a discussion that was very much needed. And to everyone at home, thank you for watching the roundtable episode of Where We Learned It brought to you by Pennies for Pounds. We're building the Black British Money Archive to document our stories, and this is just the beginning. Future episodes will explore different communities and voices, so make sure you subscribe and check out our archive online to dive deeper and share your own story. See you at the next one.