In the first two episodes of the love and money series, we explored the symptoms and revealed the causes of Dysfunctional Harmony. In this episode, you'll discover the cure.
Helen and Terry reveal the most important factor for flipping the script, and why the SCARF model reveals for roadmap for reimagining your financial future as a couple.
Also in this episode:
07:13 👉 How 'psychological safety' influences your ability to collaborate as a couple
07:55 👉 Breaking down the SCARF model to apply it to couples and money
11:53 👉 Why couples 'burn out' despite their best intentions
20:11 👉 The three different types of accounts you need (and how we configure them)
31:43 👉 The shockingly simple idea that ELIMINATES financial stress and conflict
Show notes
Click here to see notes on this show and all resources & links mentioned.
Join the Private Podcast Community
Click here to access free courses and trainings, build new habits, and connect with us and others on the journey to financial self reliance.
Other links 👇
Money mentorship:
Click here to start putting what you've been learning into practice.
Corporate program:
Click here to find out more about our workplace program
Follow us on Instagram:
Click here to see behind the scenes of our business and learn more about personal finance in bite-sized chunks.
In the first two episodes of the love and money series, we explored the symptoms and revealed the causes of Dysfunctional Harmony. In this episode, you'll discover the cure.
Helen and Terry reveal the most important factor for flipping the script, and why the SCARF model reveals for roadmap for reimagining your financial future as a couple.
Also in this episode:
07:13 👉 How 'psychological safety' influences your ability to collaborate as a couple
07:55 👉 Breaking down the SCARF model to apply it to couples and money
11:53 👉 Why couples 'burn out' despite their best intentions
20:11 👉 The three different types of accounts you need (and how we configure them)
31:43 👉 The shockingly simple idea that ELIMINATES financial stress and conflict
Show notes
Click here to see notes on this show and all resources & links mentioned.
Join the Private Podcast Community
Click here to access free courses and trainings, build new habits, and connect with us and others on the journey to financial self reliance.
Other links 👇
Money mentorship:
Click here to start putting what you've been learning into practice.
Corporate program:
Click here to find out more about our workplace program
Follow us on Instagram:
Click here to see behind the scenes of our business and learn more about personal finance in bite-sized chunks.
Hello friend, I like that intro of yours last time. Helen, Welcome back.
Speaker 2:Hey friends, How's everyone going? I mean, how are you going, Terry?
Speaker 1:I'm all right. I'm all right. We're on our second go around with this one back in the studio. How are you feeling?
Speaker 2:I'm excited today. Yes, it's probably take a little bit longer than what we'd hoped to originally.
Speaker 1:Well it's probably my fault. I booked our first crack at this on Friday night. We're a couple of you're a couple of wines in. I have a couple of pieces. Listen back to it. I went, maybe not.
Speaker 2:We've been experimenting a little bit. Have a week.
Speaker 1:Just all different states. We're in the morning today. We're nice and fresh. Just come off a run. You're looking very fresh.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Have you found the whole process though going through this podcasting producing? How have you found it?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's been awesome. It's been a new challenge. I do like new things. I love trying new things. It has been again a bit harder than probably what I'd originally thought. But in a good way. I mean, you guys are providing incredible value to the community, and that's what I've got to keep remembering. It's, it's not about me. I'm my own worst enemy.
Speaker 1:Oh, you've actually done a great job Carried me. Oh, I have not, I have not.
Speaker 2:Anyway, no, it's good, I'm excited to be part of it still.
Speaker 1:No well, look, we're on our last episode for this series, which is kind of sad but also kind of cool, because this is where it all comes together. Like you know, in episode one we talked about the symptoms right, the five symptoms of dysfunctional harmony. Episode two, we talked about causes, four financial alter egos, and then this is the last one. Now we're going to be talking about the cure. So how can we flip the script and change the game for good? So do you want to just talk through what we're going to cover in this episode?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's three main things here that we want to cover today. So the neuroscience behind better collaboration with cash flow, again how we're partnering together to really to move forward with what we want to do in our life. And number two, three principles that any any couple can use to just flip the script, change things and change things for good. And three, the specific practices that we use and teach in the mentorship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then that's like the real tactical stuff, exactly what we do. So if you do want to do this and you want to give it a crack, you can try this stuff and see how it works for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. We'll give it our best go of explaining exactly what it's like and what we do and how we, how we, set people up.
Speaker 1:And little caveat before we get into this as well Some of what we're going to talk about today doesn't make logical sense, and there's an important reason for that is because the problem isn't logical. So I can't remember who I heard this from. I think it was a guy called Rory Sutherland and I was like that's exactly what it's like with cash flow. And he said we live in a world that deifies logic, so everything has to be, has to logically make sense, right. And he says if the dominant tool that the world uses to solve every problem is logic, then the only problems that persist probably won't be solved by logic.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's why some of what we're going to talk about doesn't necessarily make logical sense, but it just happens to work, because what we've done over the period of the last three years is, you know, when we started with you and Chase, we started with the earliest members we actually didn't say we have the solution. We said we want to understand the problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we probably sat in that problem, I reckon, for the best part of two years iterating our approach, learning, growing, improving. You would have seen how much things changed during that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:And so where we came to and where we've got to with this is the solution emerged from that understanding. It didn't, we didn't come to it and go well. It must make sense to work like this, and I think that's I think that's where a lot of finance people go wrong is they come at it and go well. This is how money works, this is how you need to work with money, whereas we say this is how people work, yeah, and this is how people work with money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of retrofitting, isn't there? To what people's problems are in financial advice basically, and all we knew at the time was what we were doing isn't working. We really had nothing to lose so there had to be a solution out there. So that was a logical part of our brains ticking over.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this seemed like it was a bit unusual, but that's the point.
Speaker 3:It kind of wasn't logical.
Speaker 2:We couldn't rely on that any longer.
Speaker 1:It wasn't working for us. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there that's supposed to make sense but doesn't tend to work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't apply to your situation. Yeah, it just doesn't fit where you're at.
Speaker 1:And look from my point of view. I just love it when people I just hear people talk to us about this and they say things like this is better than therapy. I would hear. This is saved our marriage at least once a month, I reckon. And I've even had a divorced person say to us I wish we did this. If we had done this, then things would have been completely different for us. I feel like our lives would have taken a very different trajectory. So it works. It does work.
Speaker 2:It does work. It's incredible feedback and I guess we wanted to also make full disclosure here. Things are really tight at the moment. We've been having conversations about what's going on right here and now. So we're sort of August, September 23. It's tight interest rates.
Speaker 1:Pig rates.
Speaker 2:Driven up over the last year, yeah, and our cash flow on a month to month basis is just being completely eroded. We have less, a lot less money. Like we're talking thousands of dollars a month, aren't we that we used to contribute to objectives or just lifestyle, or you know what? Do you call it Disposable income that we just don't have anymore?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, we're now paying I think it's about $2,400 more for our more vision. We were just over a year ago. Yeah, and that's a hit on the cash flow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not sitting here saying, oh, look at that.
Speaker 1:Everything's fine and dammit. We're not facing any challenges. No, that's not the point. The point is, it doesn't mean you don't face challenges, it just means that you face your challenges more effectively. That is really what we're saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not saying we've got it all figured out and everything's all excellent. We're saying this is what works for us and it happens to be what's working for the people we work with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I was telling you before. I can see things a lot more clearly now, so that when I have those feelings or we're drawn back into thinking, oh like, what are we going to do? Now We've got the confidence. We've got a lot more confidence to use what we've learned and to have better conversations and move forward.
Speaker 1:Reminds me of that point. I'm not sure if I've already said it in this series, but you don't rise to the level of expectations. You fall to the level of your training. Yeah, and so if you've got a stack of evidence in the past that you've been able to work through various challenges, then your confidence meter is higher.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you can actually pursue a little bit more challenge and deal with a little bit more chaos on the way through. So I think that really, really does matter, because what it means is you slowly can expand that comfort zone. Yeah, and that's when you start making bigger moves, which is what we talked about earlier on in the series. Yeah, start making bigger decisions.
Speaker 2:Big moves. Hey yeah, that's all about so anyway, let's get stuck into this today. So number one we're going to be talking about the neuroscience behind better collaboration. Terry, take me through. What do you mean by this?
Speaker 1:What I'm talking about is this concept called psychological safety, and when we're discussing, we've talked about symptoms and causes. We talked about symptoms being like dysfunctional harmony, an absence of trust. Not willing to talk about that sort of thing, it's usually happening because we don't feel psychologically safe. And what is psychological safety? It's just the ability for you to feel safe and comfortable to share your thoughts and ideas without being afraid of getting in trouble or feeling judged. It just needs to be a safe place where you can be yourself, express your feelings without fear, because you're together in this right it's. You're not reacting to events, you're responding together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and there's a really good model that helps us explain this. Isn't there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is. Yeah, it's called the SCARF model, and I think this is probably the best way to understand, like, what needs to be true for psychological safety to happen, and it's from a neuroscientist called David Rock. Yeah, and he's really just codified it and said well, look, when these things are at present, then psychological safety will be the result.
Speaker 2:OK, let's go through each of them in order, and the first one, status. Tell us about that.
Speaker 1:So status is all about how you're seen and how you see yourself in the relationship. Are we peers or is there some kind of power dynamic? And if you feel like you are held in high regard, then you're much more open to sharing what you know, what you feel, what's happening for you. That's really all status means If you've got a really a level kind of playing field, that's where you want to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nice and certainty.
Speaker 1:Certainty is just about your ability to predict the future, what's coming up and what the other person is going to do. If things are very erratic and you're not at all sure things are very volatile, then it's very, very hard for you to feel safe enough to be able to speak your mind, share your thoughts and then even just act effectively.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what about autonomy?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So autonomy is your ability to make your own decisions, its agency in your own life. It's your ability to govern where you're going and how you want to play the game. Basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're in a relationship or you're in some kind of collaboration where there's no room for you to be who you are, you have no autonomy. Yeah, yeah, so you don't feel safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then relatedness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a big one. So how much are we feeling like we're in this together? How much are we feeling like it's a mission or a quest that we're on and that we're sharing? And there's a bigger purpose?
Speaker 2:Like you understand each other, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not like your way versus my way. It's our thing that we're doing together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nice. And then, last of all, fairness.
Speaker 1:I mean it is what it says on the tin, Is it fair? And fair, by the way, doesn't mean equal. Everything's 50%. Fair is what we decided is given our circumstances, so it's very different for every couple and it should change. It's a moving feast and it needs to be a continuing conversation. So those are the five things status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness. That scarf model tells you what has to be true if you collaborate effectively when it comes to money.
Speaker 2:So now we want to go on and talk a bit about how does this actually apply to money, and there's three key principles that isn't there here.
Speaker 1:There is, yeah. So when we kind of thought about it, we're like, okay, so psychological safety with money, we know it has to be true. When I looked back over, I guess, what we teach and the tools, the methods and everything in the program and tried to map it to psychological safety and those principles of SCARF, what I really came up with was just three things that matter. The first one is you need to create a common cause. The second one is you need to structure your accounts for trust and transparency. The third one is you need to master a shared way of working. Key emphasis there on shared, yeah, and we'll get to that. So I think what we want to do is let's go through each of those principles in a little bit more depth but also talk about the exact practices within each of those that we do.
Speaker 2:That sounds great. So number one was all around creating a common cause. I love this. It's the foundation, isn't it?
Speaker 1:This is the big one. Yeah, change doesn't happen without commitment, and you won't get off your ass and do something new unless the juice is worth a squeeze. So you really need to craft a vision based on shared values, and for us, what this means is sitting down, taking 90 minutes, sometimes two hours, sometimes even longer, to really actually understand. What does the money have to do for me? What does wealth look like to us? It has to be a self-determined definition of success, because you cannot optimize effectively until you know what you're optimizing for.
Speaker 3:Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:I feel like I say it all the time, but it's so true, isn't?
Speaker 2:it. I know there's skepticism here, don't we? About when people stand in the mentorship, about what to expect here, and there's been a few times where people have wondered whether or not this step is worth it. But I think, would you say, it's fair to say once people have been through it, they've realized. They're the biggest convert, yeah, and they realize this is exactly what you need to do first, isn't it I?
Speaker 1:remember sitting in a meeting with one of the early guys and he's a big, concrete, big strong guy and he's sitting there, he's got his arms crossed, His body language is telling me he thinks this is bullshit. And I remember calling him out saying you reckon this is bullshit? Hey, the fish's like. Here he goes yeah, what are we doing this for? Just let's get into the meat. And I said, mate, we can, we absolutely can. But here's what you're going to find You're going to run out of steam, probably within a couple of weeks, and you won't be connected in terms of what you're actually trying to accomplish.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, what we're doing here isn't magical thinking. What we're doing is we're using the way things are actually created in the world. If you're listening to this, look around the room that you're in right now. Look at the chair you're seated on, Think about the earphones you're listening to this from. All these things were first created in somebody's mind before they were created in the real world. So all we're talking about is saying let's do that for life and then give money the job of making it happen. You've got to start with the end in mind and then sort of figure it out from there and reverse engineer what you actually want from money, because money isn't wealth and wealth isn't money.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Wealth is having more of what you value, so you need to start with what you value first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love this because this really draws out the relatedness. So not only are you talking about vision maybe vision for yourself you're doing it together as a couple.
Speaker 1:Massive. This is where people say this is like therapy, because it is right. Like a lot of couples, I reckon, have these conversations in passing, like I call them corridor conversations. There's like moments in life where you kind of look at each other and go, oh, wouldn't it be great if X or Y or whatever? And you don't actually sit down, collate this stuff, formalize it and turn it into a clear, compelling vision. And if you don't have the vision, then you don't have direction. Yeah Right, so you're optimizing for what?
Speaker 2:For what? Where are you going For more money?
Speaker 1:Yeah, who's motivated inherently by more money? No one, even the people that think they just want more money. What they want is probably more security, because I'm scared about what would happen if I didn't have money and I didn't have choice. It's really actually getting underneath that and figuring that out first. You're right, though. Relatedness is huge for this, coming back to that scarf model, the second one for me is status. This puts two people on the same page.
Speaker 1:I had a conversation with a couple two weeks ago and I knew that they were having trouble. They had delayed this first session, and I was like come on, guys, let's get straight into this. And I could tell at the start of the session they were on very different pages and there was a lot of apprehension from both, and I was like it's okay, it's totally fine, you've been operating like this forever, you don't know a different way. We don't need to figure out the way yet. We're going to figure out why, and by the end of this session, I could just see that the assumptions that she had made about him had totally been invalidated and she understood where he was coming from, but also, in the same vein, he understood what she really, really wanted, and he wasn't completely sure either. And so once it was clear that they could both have more of what they wanted and they wanted that for each other you know what I saw the next week? Just tick, tick, tick, tick. I could just see them moving through all the modules.
Speaker 2:I'm like you guys are flying.
Speaker 1:You delayed this first part. And now, because they were now peers and I had that sense of belonging, that sense of relatedness. They were just flying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean you give each other permission to be really open here. I think, as you said, the important part is not about trying to work out how, and you completely avoid any of those habits or missteps and points of tension and you can start from scratch and just just listen to each other and about what's important.
Speaker 1:Huge, huge. The second part of this, if you're going to try to create a common cause and this vision is, you need to label your pain, and we live in a society where we're sort of taught that negative feelings are negative and we should stay away from them, that you need not just direction, you need purpose as well, and purpose comes from pain. If you think about any big thing you've ever done, it first comes from a place of pain, and so you don't want to move away from that, you don't want to numb yourself from that, you want to feel it, use it, because it's that that drives you, it's what keeps you going through the challenging part that comes with change. So if you don't actually connect with it, and you don't connect pain to that picture of the future, then you actually don't have commitment, and if you don't have commitment, then you won't have the courage to move through that challenging part of change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this has been so important for us as a couple, I think because it's we live in a society where we're constantly told to think positively about things or understand our motivations, and our motivations almost need to be angelic and so I don't know so positive, just generally. However, at the crux of it, there's we're moving away from something. We don't want to be like something, or there's this fear here that is equally important. We need to understand it, and athletes understand this, don't they? 100%.
Speaker 2:And they use this to their advantage and we talk about that a bit.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and this you know. Coming back to that scarf model, again, relatedness once you understand what is driving somebody and where they're coming from, you get a whole new level of empathy for that person. Coming back to the couple I talked about you know he was talking about I just really want to make sure that I can be there for my kid in the moments that matter. Yeah, and right now, my business isn't a vehicle for that and I need to make it a vehicle for more of these experiences, so I've got to work hard to make that happen before it hits this age.
Speaker 1:And so I reckon she was looking at him going you just at work all the time and he's like, yeah, I am, I'm trying to figure it out, I just don't know how to figure it out. I've got to figure it out, yep. And so we actually mapped out well, how would you make that happen with your business? What? Would need to be true to make that sort of actually happen. What are the investments you need to make in your own personal skills to make it happen? And I think that changed things completely.
Speaker 2:This is where I think we also have seen members. We get to the point where we're asking why. You know what's underneath this for you. What are those things that you don't want to have repeat, what were those painful points you're bringing? I think as a couple, you see this and you know it's there in the couple, but once it's called out, you realise how big a part it is of somebody and why they think the way they do, why they believe the way they do and why they're acting the way they are.
Speaker 1:I can't overstate how much this connects couples, because once you've stepped into someone's shoes and you can see where they're really coming from, then you want the best for them, because that's why you're together.
Speaker 1:So the last part of this, when you're creating a common cause, is you need to empathise with the future selves, and that's really just about future pacing, actually walking forward into that life and looking backwards from it and talking to your current self about what that's like and creating a connection with that version of you, because what all the research shows is that the more you can empathise with that future version of you, the more your current decisions will reflect their wellbeing, and so a big part of this practice is something we call future authoring. Where we are doing that, we're getting that vision.
Speaker 2:It's a pretty cool process, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you actually write a letter. And you write a letter from that place and you say this is how we're living now, thanks to you. These are the choices we have now, thanks to you, because you've done the work to know what the money's got to do for you. And every time you do that, what you're essentially doing is you said is like building that empathy, and you're calibrating your brain. Calibrating your brain to figure out how am I going to make that happen? How do I need to calibrate or how do I need to change my decisions? What do I need to start doing? What do I need to stop doing? What do I need to change? It just drags your identity in this completely different direction, and what we see is that couples start doing things they weren't doing and they stop doing things they were.
Speaker 1:that don't make sense anymore, because everything that's not in line with that is now a distraction.
Speaker 2:And I love this exercise, future authoring it's again. It's a really important, it's a quirky part I've never experienced before and again it might have been one of these activities that previously I think we would have sat down and thought oh, really it's illogical.
Speaker 1:What would you?
Speaker 2:do that. Do you really need to go to these lengths where we're writing this letter?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But again it's giving a go and seeing what it does and how it shifts things for you and empathizing with that future self.
Speaker 1:I always say to people if you want to bottle this feeling of what it feels like to be on the same page right now, write the letter and keep coming back to it.
Speaker 2:Keep reading it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, keep going back over it, keep coming back to it.
Speaker 2:All right, we've just covered off there how to create a common cause, and we've got two other things. So the second one is around structuring accounts for trust and transparency, and there's a few things again that sit underneath here, isn't there, terry? What's the first?
Speaker 1:one. The first part of this is we need to create shared accounts and we need to create personal accounts right Now. The shared accounts goals, living and lifestyle. That is all about creating that sort of sense of status, that sense of we're all together in this, we're peers. It's also certainty how we are handling things together, what plans we're actually making, and it is related and it's because the goals part of this is critical. So we just have these three different, I guess, categories right, you've got yours, mine and ours. So yours, you've got your own lifestyle, you've got your own goal accounts, if you want them. Mine, I'll have my own lifestyle, my own goal accounts as well, and then we've got ours and I'll have living, lifestyle and our goals as well. So our goals always take precedence. For us as a family. That's what we do. We put our goals first, and any overflow and he's anything superfluous is you're finding it like a personal goal?
Speaker 1:Yeah that's something for you. So that's just how we do it, but there isn't a rule, and this is, I think, what's critical. Right, this isn't a prescription. You actually choose how you want to play the game, and this is what makes it sticky. You might remember, we talked to you, kai chow, the, the guy who came up with the, the gamification framework of octalysis. Yeah, there is a concept in his framework called creativity of feedback.
Speaker 1:Yeah and what that means is, if you choose how you play and you want to, then you get to play your way. You're playing, yeah, whereas if you have to play my way because I told you what to do at every step of the way, then you feel oppressed. You've got no autonomy in this. So for me, coming back to the scarf model huge for autonomy. You have to figure out how you're gonna use this sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah and huge for fairness, because we know exactly where the money is going, we know what it's for and it's very obvious and open to everyone isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and we've we've played around with this structure a little bit to work out what works best for for us as a family, and not just Even who we bank with and who we decide to structure the accounts with, but about how many accounts we have. And whether or not, it makes sense and the good thing is.
Speaker 2:Banking is becoming easier and structuring accounts and they're having to, they're having to move at the times and make these products a lot more user-friendly, which has meant that we we have had this autonomy, this flexibility to give it a go. Look if we're not, if we're not using something, or if we find that we're using it in ways that we didn't think possible.
Speaker 3:You can just change it.
Speaker 2:That's the great thing about it? It is. It gives us the autonomy, allows us to have a conversation again. That relatedness, part of it coming up.
Speaker 1:And you know, I hear people say, oh, there's so many accounts and like that seems so complicating, and that's yeah. And I think what's your alternative? You're gonna earn and spend out of one account. You don't know where every dollar is going. It doesn't have a job. It's not clear when you're making these trade-offs. I'm pulling from this goal account to fund this short-term thing. I can't see that trade-off when it's all lumped in together and for me that's complicated. Yeah, so and that's stressful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's the unknown question of like where's my money going? What's it doing? So, to take a little bit of time to set up some goals that are specific to you, geared towards the vision that we created together. It like you say, like it's not, like it was in 1980 where you got to go into the bank. You got to listen, yeah, you got to line up and then you can literally just get on the internet, open up an account, make it an online saver, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:It's simple and it is like Transparent and the way this links into autonomy. We've seen with members they often do have separate accounts or, you know, at times they do have their own personal account. This just makes it transparent, transparent between you as a couple and you can see what you're allocating and I think I brought up this with you the other day. It allowed me to make better decisions, not in isolation. So if I wanted to put an amount in my personal account, let's just call it five grand. Let's be a bit outrageous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just five.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna buy a really nice handbag this month. Okay and then I see Chase put $200 in his yeah. Like that allows me to temper my expectations as to what I am going to put it. Look, I'm not gonna put five grand in, especially when the most common thing that we have a conversation is coffee.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this comes up. How much are we gonna spend on coffee? Like, are we gonna go out for breakfast together? Are we gonna put it in our joint account?
Speaker 1:This is a good point, actually, things like that the difference between so you've got your own personal lifestyle account yeah, black box, do whatever you want with it yeah, but we have a shared lifestyle account. This, to me, has been a game changer, because it is a cue for us to invest in us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know so for us.
Speaker 1:I think we put about 150 bucks in there a month, something like that 150, maybe 200 bucks, and that might be our night out, might be.
Speaker 2:Yes, date night, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's something like that but Because the job of that money is clear, it's for us to invest in us. I don't feel like I'm taking from the amount of money all in one account and I don't know if ever asked myself the question Can we afford it? Should we do it? That question is not a question that I ask anymore, and so we have a lot of people who come into the program and one of the big revelations is Guys, we're doing date nights again.
Speaker 1:We haven't done date nights in years and it's because you haven't actually given that money the job.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've helped me invest in the relationship. People say to me all the time, oh, that's a bit of money, and I go. Well, actually, this is I'm not gonna make this point as my own, this is a Lisa's point. She goes this is cheaper than a divorce, terry.
Speaker 3:That's what the fuck's wrong with me. And it is.
Speaker 2:You've got one intelligent wife.
Speaker 1:She's like it's cheaper than a divorce, and it's true, right Like if you're not investing in the relationship and you're actually not allocating for the relationship number one. What does that say? Yeah what does it say to your partner I don't care enough. I don't care enough about this To spend any time or money on it.
Speaker 2:And I think there will be very few couples that wouldn't want to do this if they could. And this is the this is why it's so important Is when we're creating that shared vision. So, going back to number one, we're hearing people say this is what's important to them. So, again, like the, the structuring of the counts helps them execute on that vision, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:Huge yeah, I can't yeah again, just People like oh. I've got a mess around my structure.
Speaker 3:I'm like listen, you're doing a lot of messing around.
Speaker 1:It's all in your head right now, yeah, and there's a lot of mental accounting happening going on and you're not investing in these areas. It's not clear where you're going like you're doing work. You may as well do work one time to benefit from it for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it, and once you've got it set up and done, you often don't need to touch it. You don't need to make these big, big moves again with the structure of it, and just change the name to your accounts when the girls change the names.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:So that's structuring accounts. That's number two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then number three mastering a shared way of working yeah, so this is the third principle and I I guess the first two really set us up for this one. And this is the most important thing, and I said it before, but the emphasis here is on shared way of working shared. Frequently, and this has been me, this has been, I think, a lot of people. You've got one person who's more engaged in the topic of money, and so they'll take a lead.
Speaker 1:Yeah and what ends up happening is they do a lot of learning on their own, and Then they'll come to conclusions on their own, they'll make connections and they'll start to come up with ways and means of doing things, and the other person hasn't gone on the journey with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is where you got one person saying great, I've worked it out. This is what I think we should do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here's my spreadsheet, just figure it out, jump in here, do it with me. And because I haven't gone on the journey with them, it just doesn't like they haven't made those connections at the same time, and so it falls flat. And then the person is like, oh, it's not, you don't want to do it with me. You tell you tell yourself these stories about my partner doesn't care about this as much as I do. None of it's actually true, because if you do have the common cause, you do care. So this is why you have to start with these first two steps. Right, start with a common cause, start there and then reverse engineer everything backwards as you're building the structure. Now you start to figure out how we're going to use this structure together.
Speaker 1:Yeah and you've got. You've skipped a whole bunch of steps, and that's what's hurting you. So there's a few practices here that I think are Completely game-changing, completely game-changing and the first ones about making decisions together, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is yeah, so we talked about this before. With status and certainty it helps. But when we say make decisions together, what we're talking about is actually Creating a space where you're sort of saying we are going to be using our money the money that we actually have to the month coming up. That's why we call it money mapping mapping our money to the month and we're deciding together what we're going to do with this money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what we're going to prioritize for this month.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's so important because If you've ever found yourself in this situation where you're like I just saw an Amazon box at the door, I don't know what it's about, and now we're in it. When now we're in a money fight, yeah, that is because there's been a violated expectation. It's a surprise that you didn't actually know was coming. And now because there's no, there's no understanding, there's no goal setting, you haven't had this conversation. You're like is that money going to cost? Come at the cost of our long-term goals?
Speaker 1:Yeah it's just gonna hurt our progress for the future. And now, all of a sudden, you're in this like loop yeah and you bring all that stress and pressure into the conversation, so you'll ask your partner the question what's that box? Yeah and it's laced with judgment. Hey, I'm put my hand up here.
Speaker 2:I've been. You've got a really tense tone even with it. Yeah, so you can get rid of that by making the decisions together.
Speaker 1:So when the Amazon box shows up, you know what it is You're like. Oh, I ordered that. It's a health supplement or whatever it is. We talked about that, we allocated for it, it's part of our plan and we know that it's actually not coming at the cost of our long-term goals. Yeah, I just dress about that. Yeah, doesn't need to be an argument no, no, no.
Speaker 2:And I think we even have one last month and again, just to bring it right back to reality, like really boring stuff. It was about maybe car service versus Chase is like I really gotta go to the dentist. Yeah, please, I mean again you proactively having the conversations, and again I'm not saying these are big dream goals or something. There's about like going, oh, we need to allocate a bit of money towards the car and we really need to get that sorted. And it's about knowing that we've got it in there, we've got confidence to cover it, we're not being surprised anymore and, yeah, get a check up too.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like both pretty important things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's. This is where I think I love having these onboarding calls with couples and asking that question we talked about it before but like, what's your partner good at when it comes to money? Oh yeah, this is where you get to make the best use of each other's strengths. I was on a call a couple of nights ago and the couple was like one person, was bigger picture, future focused.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other person was more present and in the weeds and I was like, cool, so you, what information and insight do you have that your partner doesn't have? And he's like, well, I'm seeing that you know, these are all the things we're capable of, these are all the choices we can have with what we, with what we actually own. She's just not seeing it. Not seeing, yeah, and then I said same thing for you what are you seeing that he doesn't see? And she's like well, I know what life costs.
Speaker 1:And I know this, this and this are the things that are costing us money, and he's asked me about these things. He's so far off the mark, it's not even funny.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that is a great example of when you're operating in silos, making decisions separately, holding mental load but not sharing it what the true cost of that is because we've said it before, two brains on one problem may way better than one brain on two problems, because we've got complimentary strengths. They were seeing that those as differences and I said, guys, you put your strengths together, you make better decisions.
Speaker 2:To me like, not one person is wrong. They are. They. They're both seeing different versions of reality, and it's about how you bring that together so that you're actually making those decisions together. Yeah, I mean, there's a. There's a few more really important points here, and the second ones around this process. It allows you to separate those decisions from the actions, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:If there's one thing that you could do to eliminate financial stress for the rest of your life. I know that's a big call, but this is it. It's a big call, but if you are separating the decisions from the actions, then what happens is because there's a level of stress that comes from deciding and acting in the same moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because if you you haven't actually mapped it out and seen well, what does this mean for our long term? And you can't can't answer that question, then you're always going to ask yourself should I be spending this money? Yeah, and there are so many occasions where it's absolutely fine, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the classic one for me is like close, I would just never allocate for close or anything like that. And because you haven't got a practice and you haven't actually looked at it within the plan, you start to go, well, I don't need new clothes. And look, you don't have to buy clothes all the time, but sometimes you do. The key point is here like it would be a stressful exercise for me if I didn't actually have the plan, look at it and go, that's fine, we've allocated for this much for close throughout the year. That kind of makes sense, yeah, and when I look at it in the context of our long term goals, it isn't a cost.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like it's not. It's not a material thing, yeah. So if I need the new clothes, then I should get them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that helps a lot, because the further that decision happens from the action, then the more enjoyable that purchase, isn't it? Yeah, this is how you enjoy your money.
Speaker 2:Well, this is how you enjoy your money. But I was just thinking through, as we go through that scenario, a situation which I always get drawn into and where I potentially previously got tripped up, is a last minutes online sale.
Speaker 3:Oh, I gotcha Like.
Speaker 2:Kippenco has having their yearly 40% off sale.
Speaker 1:Free plug for you, kippenco, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's only till midnight tonight Like this has allowed me to be much more controlled in those situations.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 2:Yes, because I've actually at least stops me, Like I would say I still potentially will go for the sale. But, I stop and think about, like what money have I allocated for something like this? Have I got homewares in for this month or next month?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Can I delay that?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do I really need that? Where does that fit in? And then sometimes I go, ah, fuck it.
Speaker 3:I can do it.
Speaker 2:I can do it because I know that it's not going to have an impact long term.
Speaker 1:This is where the accounts becomes really important, too right, because you know that if you're going to have to pull the money from somewhere, what it's coming from, yes, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So did I pull it from shared lifestyle? I just pulled it from the investment we're making from in each other. To me, what am I saying with that decision right? Or did I pull it from our essentials? Maybe it was the kids, maybe it was the kids clothes, but it's going to me, you know, sorry kids, you're going to have to be a bit cold this winter.
Speaker 1:So I don't know. But you might also make a mindful decision and say well, you know, I had homewres in this month. Maybe I can get the homewres next month, because this is a great opportunity. So I've got money allocated, but I'm just going to shift what I'm going to allocate. That's right, yeah, so it's not, you're not good or bad or anything like that, it just. It makes those unconscious trade-offs conscious.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think I've had the most questions from my friends about this as well, like about the. Does this remove all spontaneity? And like how can I possibly map out every single thing that I'm spending money on? We don't. You actually don't need to do it to that level, but it absolutely helps.
Speaker 1:The point isn't that you stick steadfastly to your plan. The point is that you have a plan.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's right, because you can adjust and respond to sort of events and go okay, cool. So you know what makes sense now given this, this and this is that we shift our focus, shift our priority right now to this. Yeah, cause that can actually move. Yeah, totally. But that again, key point shared decision, shared conversation, separate from the action.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and talk about something else that's shared. This is all about developing up and getting really good at speaking a shared language together.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, this is the third practice. If you do have these structures that you've defined together and you do have kind of the decisions you're making together, that shared language is huge for relatedness and huge for certainty because it eliminates, or at least massively decreases, the chance that I could misunderstand you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yep, if I use the word essentials, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lifestyle joining accounts we're using it here. You're becoming familiar with the way we're talking and that language that we're using. Yeah, and we're looking at each other nodding because we're talking the same about the same things yeah, Cannot misinterpret each other, cannot make assumptions that don't make sense.
Speaker 1:Helps us to be on the same page, and if you think about any profession, they all have their own lingo. What does it help them do? It helps them cut down on communication overhead. Get on the same page very, very quickly, quickly, to make better decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're not spending time debating the definition of things, are you anymore?
Speaker 1:You're not wasting time on on the end, or is that a need? Is that a need, or is that a want? Do we need that?
Speaker 3:We don't have those conversations.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. Oh, the next one's one of my favorites actually. So, as a very goal-orientated person, I love to track progress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so many people don't do this and it's a real shame, because progress is where you get a sense of certainty of how you're actually going and again, it's your opportunity to have that relatedness, because when we're winning, we get to win together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but so many people walk past their wins because they're so focused on what they don't have, shooting for the ideal, and I think I want to make a distinction here and talk about why the vision matters and where you need to be careful of it. The vision is important because it guides your directions and actions, but you should not measure yourself against that vision and feel less than. What you should do is look backwards and measure from the start to see how far you've come.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're always looking forward at the vision, you're always going to look down at your feet and look at the gap between those two things, instead of looking backwards and seeing the gain from where you started. Yeah, if you can focus on the gain. Guess what you do? You keep going.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:If you're forever focused on the gap, at some point you'll give up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at some point you do give up. And also let's be honest, to be realistic with this visions also change as well. So you may not even be satisfied, even if you were to get to that magical thing that you thought was the end point and your amazing vision. But this is where you're tracking progress over time. So I think as well, like a trip up is too many people might just see a point in time and that's it.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:This is something you keep coming back to.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're seeing it. You're seeing the same markers. You're not jumping and changing what you're measuring. You're actually being able to see it graphically if you want to see it graphically and in the way you want to see it over time.
Speaker 1:And we talked to BJ Fog on this podcast and one of the things he said his biggest insight is we don't change by feeling bad, we change by feeling good. You want to create positive dopamine loops in your brain that you want to keep going to and reinforcing the behaviors, turning those into norms and habits through the wins.
Speaker 1:If you don't have a mechanism and you don't have an operating rhythm that allows you to look backwards, track that progress and celebrate success. Then it's just so much easier to always be looking at that gap and just feeling like, oh, we're not doing any good yeah and celebrating success.
Speaker 3:Isn't that.
Speaker 2:Another thing that, like we just don't do very well in society. I don't think we don't do well in teams. Yeah, it always comes up at work, always comes up as something people you know to feel valued, to be able to relate to each other, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. We've started to bring this into our monthly meetups for the guys in the community and first thing we do is talk about, like, what are the wins? What have you guys accomplished throughout this month? Because, straight away, the purpose of that session is to solve problems. But it's not to say that everything's a problem, because frequently there was a guy last night who was like, yeah, like this is not working, this is not working, and I was like, but you just walk past like five big things that you are funding. Yeah, you focus on one thing. And it's not to say that we're not going to solve for that thing, but like, put it in perspective, see, how far you've come and like actually put yourself on the back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a bit of a cultural thing, I think, built into our society that we don't want to boast too much in front of other people, the thing as well. We've had to break around celebrating success and maybe some of that baggage that we've brought in around it With this. You 100% know that it's actually your goals that are specifically tailored to you, and so why should you feel bad about celebrating it?
Speaker 3:You're not celebrating what somebody you know like you can just be happy, you're running your own race. Yeah, you run your own race.
Speaker 2:And also it means that you're more likely to be able to be happy for other people when they achieve their own things. You're confident about what you're doing, so then you're able to celebrate what they're doing and go great, because that is what is important to them.
Speaker 1:This is a norm I really want to challenge. I want to challenge in our community. I want to challenge. If you follow us, if you're a part of what we're doing, you're in the passive income project community as well. If you follow us on socials, you're going to see this more, a lot from us, and it's this concept called wealth is and it's going to be you declaring and defining what choices you have now because of what you've been doing, and wealth is underscore, whatever you want it to be. So the one that I put up the other day was wealth is a mid morning run in the sun because I can. Wealth is never having to ask my boss if I can go pick up my kids from Kinder at four o'clock.
Speaker 1:It's those things where you like, you're celebrating. This is what. This is what it is for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, look, if you're listening to this and you have those choices and you want to kind of talk about it, please do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, please do.
Speaker 1:You're going to see it a lot from us on our socials going forward and now our socials have actually changed. So it's now at passive income, dot project and and we'll be putting up some pictures along the way, all the way along, talking about that to sort of change that norm, because I think it really does come at the detriment. There's this real tall poppy thing and you know we need to stop it. We need to just cut it out, because it limits everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's be your cheese squad. I want to be your cheese squad. I'm number number one fan for all of you.
Speaker 1:This is where the last one embed, and operating rhythm. Big for certainty, coming back to that scarf model, huge for certainty. You need to know what to expect throughout the month and you need a kind of operating rhythm that shows you Okay, this is when we're going to be making these decisions together. For us it's money mapping. We actually did it last night and it's like the two days out from the next month. We map for the month coming up. Early on in the next month we do tracking and actually look at our last month and then, toward the end of the month, we're actually kind of looking at how we're tracking with our spending as well, to sort of go we need to tighten anything up. How is it all kind of looking? That's really really important so that you can predict what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:And it's not like hey, Helen, we need to sit down and we need to get on our finances, and I just pulled it out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:No, so what do?
Speaker 1:you do, you go. Why? What's wrong? What's?
Speaker 2:happening yeah.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But now, this is a standard practice.
Speaker 1:You go, it's money mapping. It's a conversation we have every single month. It's not a surprise. It's actually just the way we do things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the 28th, 29th rolls around, it's time, and we do it for the next month and we actually it's not sure. You actually look forward to it. This rhythm, this certainty, you know it's coming up, it's a good time you go. Great. I now get to plan the next month ahead. This is good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would. It is really really important to explain why that is. Because it's the very active setting intentions and planning. It calms the monkey mind. This is another principle from neuroscience. There's a guy who wrote a book called the Upward Spiral. His name is escaping me, but one of the biggest things he says in that is like look, if you just create one goal or prediction for the day, then you actually prime your brain to be in a dopamine loop because you're like I can now achieve that, and so by setting the plan, you actually get to calm that monkey mind. And one thing I want to add to with this operating rhythm is this isn't like a money date. That's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is actually using a tool to facilitate that conversation. For us it's a money mapping tool, it's the forecasting tool, it's these kinds of tools that facilitate the conversations because categorization Like I don't want to go out on a date and just talk about money.
Speaker 1:How are we going with that money? I actually just want to. I just want some like the conversation to actually mean something, because we're problem solving and we're actually working together to make it happen, not just talk about money.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And how many times have we also said this is not just about money. This is not about money. No, it's what the money does for us again.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And again I would say it over and over again but yeah, embedding and operating rhythm something you said there reminded me the dopamine's going. Yeah, you've also got once you've set this up and you've had few positive experiences. Again you're building on positive experiences between you as a couple.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You now want to do this. You're now starting to change what's happened in your past, and the tension and the conflict that's happened into something else, into new neural pathways.
Speaker 3:Aren't you 100% yeah.
Speaker 2:You're actually just changing everything then going forward, so it's a successful thing that you want to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so look, these are the three principles right. Create a common cause, structure your accounts for trust and transparency, and master a shared way of working. Now, I was really keen to just pull out a couple of observations from your point of view. You've been doing this for probably longer than anyone in our community now, and you had a couple of points that you've kind of come to over time and reflections, haven't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one of them as good as like this is this is brilliant. There's absolutely 100% change things for us, the thing is, you need to keep working at it, you need to actually keep investing in doing it and the commitment to keep getting better over time. So, yes, I understand it, but I always find that when I go back to the modules or go back to mentorship, I learn something new each time.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think it was only a few months ago. I said, hey, hey, I actually I actually hadn't completely optimized the account structure.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I was like believe it.
Speaker 1:There's actually been. There's probably been a lot of changes since you last had that conversation. There has yeah.
Speaker 2:But I couldn't believe. I guess the thing is don't aim for perfection, like once you've got it set up, we just wanted to make sure that we were giving it a go. Yeah, building on it over time and just giving everything a chance to succeed and just knowing that we were. We would keep adding to it and it would get better over time.
Speaker 1:I think one thing I'd add to that is I think the inside you're hitting on there is this is a skill. Yeah, this is not a one-time thing, this is actually something you keep expanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you keep getting better at yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's a skill you're developing together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think what we see from members want when they've just started this, like once I've set up the accounts, they're getting used to it. It might feel a bit clunky. Yep, my only advice I give is like, just just persist with it. Give it a few months, See if you can embed that operating rhythm, get used to it and just see. Then that makes a difference and things come down once you've got that new habit formed.
Speaker 1:It's just change. It's actually. People get embedded with status quo and the status quo equals safety and anything that's changed feels like not safe. Yeah, and so I think half that experience is you just feeling not safe as you make change. And if you just don't let that dictate what happens? You're actually fine, you're actually 100% fine.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is we touched on this before it's not going to fix all your issues in your life Like this definitely removes a lot of uncertainty. It removes a lot of the conflict around money conversations Like we still have very challenging conversations, yeah, I would say around money.
Speaker 1:Especially now Because there's less of it. So you got to be smarter about where it's going and sometimes you have different. You know you have different kind of priorities and you've got to reconcile that stuff. But guess what? That is a relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:That is what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we're living in a world that keeps changing and we cannot stop it, we cannot control a lot of things around us, so it just allows us to have better quality conversations that we actually know that we can work through. I said, oh, when we were doing money mapping the other nine and I said to Chase look, we've got a couple of ways we can deal with this now, don't we Like we either need to cut back on what we're spending. We need to look at the categories we need to earn more money and we can divvy it up.
Speaker 2:So how much do you think that realistically we need, based on what you saw?
Speaker 1:So that is such a, you can solve the problem.
Speaker 2:I just could not believe. And again, from where we've come from to from and now where we are, and these sort of measured balance conversations that are not like slipping into, like complete fights anymore. Yeah, you know, that's a big thing.
Speaker 1:This is big right. I've heard that conversation in a number of ways, like people will come through and they'll get a handle on their money and they realize hang on, we've been living beyond our means and so what do we need to do? Do we need to actually change the way we're behaving or do we need to expand our means? And that's a conscious decision. And I've had people say listen, I don't think I'm living extravagantly, I want to live like this. So that means now, if I want to hit my goals, I now need to earn this much. And now my brain is focused on solving that problem. Yes, guess what happens that problem gets solved. Yes, it gets solved.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:You pay rise, you change your job, like that's the kind of decisions we see people make. And you turn around two, three years later and they go. Oh, this is amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing, and you're using that shared language. Again, you're using the language around. Well, we can take money from this account or we can look at these objectives. Are we going to cut back on our lifestyle? It all helps. It gives you the framework to just move through an issue or a challenge that you're having.
Speaker 1:And wait before you go on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One thing I want to add to that point pressures don't stop, I think, the search for a life where you have no pressure, it's an empty life.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the thing, the challenge for me is actualizing yourself to get better at handling bigger and bigger things, right? So for me I'm like, I'm not trying to like not see pressure, because I just I actually just don't think that exists. I think everyone faces pressure in some regard, so it's a fruitless kind of pursuit to go. I never want any pressure. What I want to do is I only come bigger than my pressure.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that it doesn't actually crush me. And that's the goal, and so if you can keep having those conversations, you can always become bigger than your pressure, bigger and bigger and bigger, yeah.
Speaker 2:And again, you're refocusing, you're spending time on the things that matter, yeah, your true priorities, your vision, your vision of the future that you've built together.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And how do we know it's actually working, like this is a really clear one. This is like keep thinking about how do we know, on a month to month, year to year basis, it's working?
Speaker 1:Well, I reckon there's three things. If you've got this sorted and you are really collaborating effectively with your money, you will be making bigger. Money moves with time.
Speaker 1:You'll be taking on more risk. We're making bigger decisions with your time, your money and your talent, yeah, and you'll be backing each other in to make those moves. You're not going to be pointing fingers if things don't work out. You'll be saying we're doing this together, yeah. And the third thing is you'll be finding joy in the journey. And as distinct from happiness because happiness is a moment to moment thing joy is something that can compound. When I look back and I see what we've actually gone through. You know, elise and I we had twins we went down like I started the business, she runs a business. We went down to like no fixed income, no predictable income as we're starting this business. She backed me in. We moved through that challenge together and we've done all these things in the meantime. But now it's really it's just so fulfilling to look back at that and I get joy from that experience. Now, happiness, it comes and goes. Yeah, you know it's a slippery thing, but joy, joy is a different thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah and joy, you've actually moved through a challenge successfully haven't you To be better. Yeah, is it when you talk about making big moves? Anyone can make big moves, but in this situation, we're talking about being confident. Yeah, you've got the right support around you to make those big moves and you're making decisions with the right information, aren't you? You're not just like blindly pursuing something or some fantasy world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's how we know it's working. And, as you said, backing each other in. Yeah, that's what we're here for. We're social beings, aren't we? We want to make a difference in the world. This is all about working to better together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. Look. So this brings us to the end of this series. This has been really fun. I hope you've had fun it has been fun.
Speaker 2:It has been fun. I would love my children to one day listen to this and again. This is this legacy piece. I would never have thought I'd do this with you but, it's brilliant and I hope one day they think oh, mom's a bit cool.
Speaker 3:Oh no, that's probably a bit rich.
Speaker 1:It's not going to happen. No, no, no, no, but it is. I think about the same thing now. I think about if my kids ever stumble on this. I'll never force this upon them, but it's something that I do think about because it's not like getting on the same page and collaborating well with Elise.
Speaker 1:It really is, for me, partly about that next generation and showing them something different. Yeah, because it's not what I saw, hurt or felt and it's not my parents fault. It's just the way it was and I know that they're going to have a different relationship if we can show them what this can look like and model that for them. So, look, if you've been listening through to this and you've really started to think, I really want to shift and change things for me, but I don't even know how to start this conversation. I've talked about this in the last episode. We actually just put up a free course in the community that's going to show you word for word how to have this conversation with your partner, to open it up, to actually just open it up and just get them curious to potentially changing things and look, this can happen. We just had a couple start with us two nights ago who actually just watched that, and he said to me that changed everything for me. I've never been able to have that conversation.
Speaker 1:Now I'm on this call. Now we're on this journey and he's like thank you so much for what you've already done, and I said I didn't do it, man, you did it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the resources are there, aren't they? Yeah, I just got to be willing to take that next step.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So look, all you need to do to get that course, as I said, 100% free Just go into the community, join the passive income project community. Scroll down in the episode description and you'll see a little link that says join the passive income project community. Click on that link. You'll see it straight in there when you jump in. There is one episode left in this series. The actual content of this series is done, but we've got a great story to tell. We're going to be bringing on one of our coaches, mitch, and his wife Brock, talking about their journey going through this and what it's all meant for them as well. So we're really looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're legends and they're making some big moves now, aren't they? They're doing some big stuff in 2024.
Speaker 1:I cannot wait to see this, so I'm excited to share that with you guys too in the next one and hope to see you there.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me.