This is one of our most dramatic transformations yet. In 18 months Avril Dunn has completely reimagined her life and career. Her future now looks nothing like her past.
In this conversation, she takes us through where she’s been, where she is, and where she’s going.
She also shares her experiences and lessons:
If you’ve got to this part of the year and it feels like the grind is getting the best if you and your best intentions are starting to slip away , Avril’s story is the red bull that gives you wings.
Join the Private Podcast Community
Click here to access free courses and trainings, build new habits, and connect with us and others on the journey to financial self reliance.
Other links 👇
Money mentorship:
Click here to start putting what you've been learning into practice.
Corporate program:
Click here to find out more about our workplace program
Follow us on Instagram:
Click here to see behind the scenes of our business and learn more about personal finance in bite-sized chunks.
This is one of our most dramatic transformations yet. In 18 months Avril Dunn has completely reimagined her life and career. Her future now looks nothing like her past.
In this conversation, she takes us through where she’s been, where she is, and where she’s going.
She also shares her experiences and lessons:
If you’ve got to this part of the year and it feels like the grind is getting the best if you and your best intentions are starting to slip away , Avril’s story is the red bull that gives you wings.
Join the Private Podcast Community
Click here to access free courses and trainings, build new habits, and connect with us and others on the journey to financial self reliance.
Other links 👇
Money mentorship:
Click here to start putting what you've been learning into practice.
Corporate program:
Click here to find out more about our workplace program
Follow us on Instagram:
Click here to see behind the scenes of our business and learn more about personal finance in bite-sized chunks.
Can I am Terry Colon, your host. And in this episode, I'm going to share with you one of the most dramatic transformations yet. Now this episode wasn't really due to be released for another month. But once I got it back from our producer marrow, I had a bit of a listen and I knew I just had to get it into the schedule a lot sooner. So it's kind of mixed things up a little bit for us. But I'm really excited to be able to get it to you sooner. I think months ago I met a lady called Avril Dan. And after our first conversation, I said to Ryan, I was like, man, Avril is going to kill it in the mentor ship. She just had this infectious energy and just this positivity. And I could see that just, she was so ready to learn. I don't want to spoil the story for you, but let's just say that since then, she's completely, re-imagined her life in her career. And she's already achieved what most people would consider impossible. Her future looks nothing at all. Like a past. And so in this conversation, she takes us through where she's been, where she is right now and also where she's going. And she shares her experience and our lessons investing in ourself to build new skills, facing doubt and uncertainty, putting herself in a position to capitalize on opportunities, backing herself when she gets there to go after those big ambitions and then building the discipline to succeed. So if you've got to this point in the year and it feels like the grind is getting the best of you and your best intentions are already starting to slip away. Admiral story is the red ball. That's going to give you wings. I hope you enjoy this.
Terry:Welcome back to the Wealth Time Freedom Show. It's Terry here. And I'm here with one of my absolute fucking favorites, Avril Dunne. Welcome to the show.
Avril:Thank you, Terry. Thanks for having me.
Terry:Now, I don't know if you know this, but you reached out to us, it might've been nine months ago, and you were like, I want to learn all these different things. And I want to do something different. And I want to get involved with, with the business. I just want to help. And you probably don't understand this, but. You know, when you're building something like this, you're doing it, you're in the grind. You just don't see how other people see it. And the fact that you were so willing and so keen to get involved with us, it actually did make me think very differently about what we were doing and the impact and I guess the size of the problem and why it matters so much. So the first thing I want to say is just. Thank you so much for what you've done for me.
Avril:I literally just beat down your door. I was like, I don't care how I can help. I'm just need to be a part of this. Get me in there. Thanks for
Terry:having me. That's okay. And the reason I wanted to have you on is because it's that attitude. It's that approach that I think, you know, we always talk about the exemplars. We want to get the exemplars on the show and really highlight and celebrate and recognize what they do particularly well. And for me, when I think about you, I think about somebody who really just backs themselves and just has this strong, strong desire to learn. And you've had that from day one and the transformation, I was just saying to the other day, I was like, it's actually ridiculous. I don't think a lot of people would really actually believe what you've been able to accomplish in this period of time. And you probably wouldn't either yourself, would
Avril:you? No way. No, not at all. Like when, from when I started, if you said that I would be here right now sitting in this chair, there's no way I would believe you. I'm going
Terry:to spoil the story here, just going to skip to the end, right? So how would you describe the from and to? From, to.
Avril:From completely lost and not knowing what's next to having a plan and now executing on the plan and knowing exactly where to from here.
Terry:Great. And then just tell us exactly what you're doing. What's your role right now? So
Avril:I'm the COO of the Energy Intelligence Platform. It's a energy intelligence and management software that helps businesses better utilize their energy resources. In 18 months? That part's only been in five months, but yes, 18 months. The whole journey
Terry:though, from there to there. 18 months, right?
Avril:Yes. Yeah. All in 18 months.
Terry:Absolutely epic. And you had this cycle and peak moments, a moment where you're standing in front of a group, you're pitching and presenting your offer and what you guys are doing. And people are telling you, this is great. This is amazing. You've got customers, you're onboarding customers. It is actually a real thing. It's not an idea. There's plenty of ideas out there. It's not an idea. Would you have foreseen that 18 months
Avril:ago? No, hell no.
Terry:So I really want to talk about how we got here because I think there's so much to learn from how you've gone about this and more specifically, even just who you are. Let's go way back to the start. Right? So. What was your first step with this? Like, what was the seed that kind of started this whole thing?
Avril:The seed that started the whole thing. I was on maternity leave with my second baby. So maternity leave is a wonderful period of time where you get to reflect on all of your life's choices. And, It was this intense feeling of overwhelm and frustration and feeling like my hands are just tired. My husband, he's working so much and doing overtime after overtime, calling up for every shift he can get. I'm on maternity leave looking to return to work and we're just working so hard, so incredibly hard, and sacrificing so much in terms of lifestyle and, you know, living arrangements and things. So the feeling of We're just literally not getting anywhere. And so I remember this viscerally, I broke down to him on the couch and just started like bawling my eyes out and said, I just feel like we're working out. butts off and just getting nowhere. Like, what's the point of all this? We've got two kids now. Like, I want to enjoy this time. I want to feel like I can be there for them, but also do the things that we want to do and not sacrifice in obviously life you have to sacrifice a little bit, but not sacrifice to the extent that you can't live the lifestyle that you want to live. What about the
Terry:fact that I've just skipped over the fact that you've done all that with a couple of kids?
Avril:Yeah, with two little kids.
Terry:Just alongside bringing up two little humans, making sure they don't kill. It's a joke. It's absolutely ridiculous. So this is this moment, right? And you and I've had this conversation a few different times, this moment of pain, this moment of discomfort, this moment of disgust. This is such a key moment, right?
Avril:Yeah. And I literally just. Sat and did the phone thing on the couch, but instead of doing the doom scroll, I just looked at every possible option out there. Yeah. What did you look into? I was just Googling passive income. I think. Is that how
Terry:you came across us? Googling passive
Avril:income. I think it was, I'm an avid. Podcaster, obviously. So it was in the podcast. I was like, how can I get some information? How can I educate myself on what else is out there? We're living in Sydney. So as everybody knows, property prices are just ridiculous. So we've been saving to buy a property for a very long time, having never made the jump. So we had the cash sitting there. And I just thought, there's got to be a better way to use this interest rates going backwards. We're getting literally nothing for having this money sit there. We're being punished more so than, than getting anything. We're being absolutely punished. So I was just Googling financial education, passive income, and then I came across your early version of the podcast. Real early, right? Yeah, it was over the Christmas period and I pretty much listened to every episode three times through before I got on a call with you. Three times through. You
Terry:were like, you got notes for every episode, actually I remember seeing all the notes.
Avril:I was just like, I can't get enough of this, like, get into me, how can I?
Terry:And this was definitely like a stage of readiness, wasn't it? Like, you're just like, this is the thing, I need to understand this, I need to understand it. Now, what was it that made you think, there's something I'm missing about money? That's really holding us back here. What was it that made you think that is it?
Avril:So my family and friends and anybody who knows me would consider me an absolute problem solver, gun problem solver. And so if there's a problem to be solved, I'm your gal. I'm just in it, like doing all of the research, finding everything. So it was this. Just deep seated feeling of this can't be it. This life that we're living just cannot be it. Right. And there's got to be something that I'm missing here. It was just this weird feeling that there was something that I was missing and I didn't know what it was, but I had to find it.
Terry:There's that realization. There's that awareness. And then there's the sort of the emphasis to kind of act and then move in a direction where you're looking at something. So what was it that made you kind of think, Oh, I'm going to go and find
Avril:out? Probably my ADD, if that, if I'm being completely honest, if I've discovered something, then I have to be like, right, like if there's a problem, I have to start ways to getting to it. There's an adage or an old something I picked up years ago, and it was, if you can control it, don't stress because there's something you can do about it. And if you can't control it, don't stress because there's nothing you can do about it. So it was definitely something within my control. So I just went into execute mode.
Terry:It's kind of a good market too, like if you're stressed about something you control, it's probably the, signal. And it's a lot of work to go and get into action, isn't it? Because it's the action that alleviates
Avril:the stress. Totally, exactly right. Yeah, and look,
Terry:as soon as you jumped on, as soon as you, I was like, this girl's going to kill it. She's going to kill it. I remember talking to Ryan about it. I was like, I've never seen somebody who's just like so ready for this. I was 100 percent right. But I really want to jump into the first part of this process where you and I sit down and we really just, I guess, clear the table. Wipe the slate clean and decide to imagine a completely different future. I've done this a couple of times now, but for me, this is probably the most important part of transformation. Right? Cause you cannot create a future that you haven't imagined and you have to be able to give yourself a mission to sit down and do that imagining. Talk me through that for you. Cause I remember you and I have had a few conversations about the importance of this session in particular for you. Yeah.
Avril:I mean, I think the words that. Come to mind or that I think I said to you afterwards was nobody asks you these questions. Nobody forces you to think like this like not in the whole lives like it was it was really and truly a different experience because and an uncomfortable one at times. Cause our brains are conditioned to not be challenged and to not do that hardcore thinking. And yeah, so I did find it liberating, but confronting at the same time in a way that, you know, thinking about what kind of a life we did want to live compared to what we had now. And you're right, like giving yourself permission to go and do it, I suppose. And it was an experience that. Was completely transformational for me in things that I was afraid or had never spoken out aloud to anybody and actually getting them on the paper and getting them on that canvas and having it stare back at you in the face and being like, okay, it's out there now. What are we going to do with that information?
Terry:It makes it real, doesn't it? And yeah, we're talking about transformation here and we've said this before, but as soon as you future pace and you sit yourself in a different future, what you essentially do is you create a gap between the identity you currently have and the one you need in order to be able to accomplish and experience that thing. And that's the uncomfortable thing. That's the discomfort. That's the uncomfortable moment. That is the impetus for change because now who you are doesn't cut it. And you've got to become someone new in the process of doing that thing. And that is the challenge. It's also the reward. It's also the scary thing. It's all of those things all at the same time. So I, you're a hundred percent, right? This is not always a comfortable conversation, but I think the more you get used to it, you and I just did another one recently. And I just noticed how different you were in this time. We had the conversation versus the first time we had that conversation. It's a knowing that this is actually a process. It's a very deliberate process. It's a generative, it's a productive, it's creative process. And what I'm feeling right now is actually helpful. It's almost adrenaline, isn't it? It's like, yeah, it's time to do something. It's time to do, it's time to do.
Avril:Totally. And I'm a very pragmatic person, very practical. I like to think with my technical co founders, I say, pretend I'm the Labrador, I know nothing, explain it from the ground up, you know, and yeah. The process I did think, Oh, I'm not sure. And you know, it's a little bit woo woo and what have you, but the way that. You have designed it. It's not at all. Well, you know the science now. Yeah, I know the science and now having gone through it the second time and having seen it the first iteration, having seen it all come to fruition and now going through it the second time. It's incredible. It's incredibly powerful. And that piece around the bit that I cling to even now is. I don't have the skills to make that happen yet. Yes. And the key thing is yet. Right. And so it's the future me who will be that person who can do that. So everything's just in pursuit of becoming that person who can realize those goals. That's
Terry:perfect segue because this is what I want to pick up on next because everything you've done from that moment has been in service of becoming that person with the talent stack, with the skill set to be able to have those things we talked about. So. Take us on that journey. Where did you go to from there? What happened?
Avril:So I returned from maternity leave to a permanent part time job and it was the kind of job management consulting role. So it looked good on paper and I loved the team. I loved the business. It was incredible. But just with the realities of a young family and a new, a second child, it just became. Too much. And I suppose going through this program, it was a big thing that I was realizing is if I am going to be away from my family and if I am going to be putting the kids in daycare, then I want to make sure that I'm earning my top potential to be able to do that, to make it a valuable exchange and worthwhile, you know, so I remember a session with Ryan and he kind of challenged me and said, so why can't you just. Do it now and see if it works. Cause I, I think I was saying like, you know, in a couple of months I'll go freelance and I'll see what happens. And he's like, why in a couple of months? And I was like, yeah, why in a couple of months? Why not now? And then, I started with an agent thinking for, freelance production work, that was my career background and thinking that it would be really sporadic and just average and a few days here and there. And I got a contract and then that contract got renewed and it was for like one day and then it was like a week and then it was like three weeks and, and then all of a sudden juggling that with my permanent role was just a little bit too hectic so I resigned from my permanent role and did, took The plunge into the freelance work and in six months of working freelance, I tripled my annual income. That was pretty good.
Terry:I remember you saying to me, this is insane. Like, it's more money than I've ever seen in my life. And it just does sort of speak to like, when you're back yourself and you actually do the thing, it's just, you're so much more capable than you think you are. And it is. Always the case, a hundred percent, always the case, every single time. What do you think stops people? What do you think is keeping people stuck where they go, Oh, in a couple, it's always the couple of months. Oh, it's always that too. We've talked about it before, but the when, then the when, then sort of thinking, what do you reckon that is behind
Avril:that? I think it's just our animalistic brains that change is scary and we're literally wired to avoid anything that's threatening. And so change is. threatening and it's the, the unknown and all those old school things that are drummed into us from our parents and through school, like a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, you know, like play it safe. I think that plays a lot into it. I think people just don't. Back themselves. And I think you're too worried about what other people are going to think and say, and you guys have spoken about it before, but, the mimetic desire of, you know, like what will people think and I'm living this life and I've got this management consulting role and it all looks amazing. And I'm just going to throw it in for the gig economy. Like people say, what are you doing? You idiot. This is so dumb. So I think it's, it's a combination of all of those things. I'm so
Terry:glad you said it because I was going to say you've picked up on it. It's a threat. But it's actually a social threat because the reality is the economic thing is nowhere near as overblown as you make it. You had absolutely the right to take that risk at that point. There was no financial reason why you needed to be waiting or doing anything different. You had been clever with your money. You've been smart. You've been even smarter working your way through the process, a hundred percent social threat. And I reckon 99 percent of what people feel most of the time, social threat. And for me, it's always never real, but like, I love this idea of the funeral frame, I call it. I think about myself at my funeral, and I realized that 99. 9 percent of people I ever meet won't be there. And of the people that are there, Um, probably most of those people wouldn't brave bad weather to watch my casket go into the ground if it was raining. So why the fuck would I live my life for a faceless crowd of critics that may or may not give a shit? And the reality is that everybody's thinking that everybody's looking at them, but everybody's also looking at themselves. So the reality is nobody's actually paying any attention. You can literally do whatever you want. And for people that do criticize, do doubt, all the energy and time they spend doing that really just means it's an undone thing for themselves. It has nothing to do with you. It literally has nothing to do with you. It is the mirror that you're holding up to them and it's none of your business what they think. It's only got to do with the relationship they have with themselves. And so. I'm just so glad you didn't let that stop you, because what you did in this next six months was give yourself even more of a right to risk, to take more opportunities to try even different newer things, to build different skills. So what did you do after that? Before
Avril:we go there, I just wanna riff off what you were saying there in terms of how you think people are gonna perceive you. I was definitely somebody who. I've played into that for a lot of my life and I was never big on like posting on social media or anything, but I have, have the accounts and everything, and you can't help but go on there and look at what everybody else is doing and think, well, I'm inferior because I don't have that, or I'm inferior because I'm not living like that. And so therefore I don't have. The skills to be able to do something like this. And so it was through this process as well, that helped me let go of that and do a big, like, bleep you. And I suppose, give myself the freedom to be able to do that and not care about what anybody else thinks. And the frame that I used was. If they care, they're going to tell me, and if they care enough, you know, they're going to let me have it. And then if they don't listen to my side of the story or point of view, then they're not real friends or not supporting me. And so that was quite freeing because I just thought, well, if they care, they'll tell me and I don't really care what they think anyway, so.
Terry:It was so interesting just to observe because I remember sitting in that first session with you and some of the things you talked about and you describe yourself like this. So you tell me if I'm wrong. You're like, I felt just really constricted. Did you use the word mouse? Like a mouse,
Avril:like a little. Yeah, I was a people pleaser. That's exactly what it was. Just pleasing everybody else before myself. Like, yeah, it
Terry:was just like, keep yourself small. Don't make too much of a fuss. And then there was this inflection point where it was just a literally the, I don't give a shit moment. It's been so cool to watch because literally since then, it's just been like the brakes have been off and the rate of learning, the rate of development, the progress has just been. It's actually unbelievable from that point of view. So how would you coach someone through getting to that point for themselves?
Avril:It was honestly, I just kept saying to myself, what do I have to lose? What do I have to lose? Like absolutely nothing. You know, I could go out and try it and fail and need to go and find another job. It's like, that's, if that's the worst thing that could happen, then like, am I going to Let that be the reason that I don't try? No way. You do have to back yourself and it is that scary, can I live without an income if I don't have, if I go freelance and I don't have any money coming in. Just try it for two months, just give yourself a runway of two months. And that's what I thought, if I get nothing in two months, I'll go out and just find another job. It's fine. Like, yeah. But that didn't happen, you
Terry:had an avalanche of freelance work.
Avril:Yeah. Next minute I'm producing a huge campaign for Kia. Where did that come from?
Terry:But this was massive for you though, because it helped you build another capital base to be able to take new and different risks. So the first one was you going out and sort of feeling okay with not having a steady paycheck, normalizing that, but you were also very deliberately building skills along the way. Obviously the financial skills that we're talking about in the program, mapping, tracking, forecasting, all those things, allowing you to think differently about what you're doing with your career capital. So talk us through some of the other skills that you bolted on to the talent stack along the
Avril:way. Up until now, I've worked on sales skills, I used to think was such a dirty industry. Now I have a completely different view of it, which is incredible. So learning how to give value in order to exchange value has been incredible. And Public speaking or presenting skills, so having a career very much behind the camera producing to now being comfortable getting up in front of cameras and in front of rooms of 250, 300 people pitching. That's wild to me, like I can't believe that. I did that like a week ago.
Terry:Massive. I, that's what I was at that moment in that life by design. I'll be like, I just want to have more confidence to be able to just like put myself. I think the words was, I just want to be able to put myself out there. And then you're like, this is what I just did. And I, you played me, you actually read me your speech. And I was like, I actually don't have many notes for that. Just. Fucking do that. That's been so amazing to see, but there's something you said there. I want to kind of double click on a little bit if we can. It's the dirty S word sales. So what I've come to understand and how I think about it now is sales is self reliance. Your ability to look after yourself is determined by how well you can sell. And that actually doesn't matter. Whether you're employed in sales or not, because guess what? Let's say your business is struggling. Let's say your job is on the line and they ask you to re interview again. Guess what you got to do? You got to sell yourself. You got to sell them a wine. So everybody thinks that I'm not a salesperson. You are, you're selling yourself every single day, the clothes that you put on your body sell you everything you do about you sells you, you're doing it every day. The reason you drive that car, you're selling an idea. We are selling ourselves all of the time, but I guess really what I really want to dig in here, here with you is like your experience, understanding that and moving through that feeling and understanding that sales's role is helping people. Make decisions to get more of what they want, not less of what they want, more of what they want. That's the only ethical way to do it and it's guiding people through those decisions. I think you've done this and you've been so meticulous and dedicated and focused to be able to do it. So focus through that journey and the realizations you've had along the way that really have changed your mind about it.
Avril:Yeah. So I think it's been a lot around that value exchange and. Helping people get more of what they want and that unlock has been huge. It's been huge being able to see what people present with and they're all the same blockers and reasons why they think they can't do things and just absolute BS really, and being able to coach them through it and help them see where they're tripping themselves up and they're being their own blocker to living that life that they want to through this process. But
Terry:I think it's also probably the best development pathway or program you could take because you cannot walk somebody through their own logic and thinking without actually having stood over your own illogical thinking. One of the biggest rewards is whatever you see in somebody else. Is actually what you have within yourself. So it's, for me, it's always owning that stuff for yourself and being able to walk somebody through and embody who they can be, who they already are. I just don't realize it to be able to walk them through that. That to me is the biggest thing. And once you realize that you're valuable, literally anywhere you step foot. Because learning how to do it, number one, being comfortable doing it and being good at it, very rare, very, very rare, but extremely valuable because of that, isn't it?
Avril:Yeah, people literally just don't know what they don't know. And so being able to take. Somebody through what that looks like and watching them have that realization of, Oh my God, like, yeah, it's really, really cool. And you're right. I remember you, Mitch and I had a conversation probably back in June and we were like going over our own when, then, and I was like, Oh my God, I know what it is, I'm completely blocking myself from where I want to go because I'm doing the, when I have this amount of money or when I have this skill nailed and when I'm. This person, then I'll do that thing. And it's like, it doesn't work like that. You get the thing by doing on along the way, learning, iterating, course correcting, and that wayfinding process, as opposed to like all of the sprinkles and throw salt over the shoulder and everything, the stars aligning. I wish it did
Terry:work that way. It literally doesn't though. You have to claim your future. And you have to claim what you want in order to make it yours, don't you? And you were really good at this. You did course correct, right? Cause you went out and you did the freelancing side of things. And then you got so good at that that you became indispensable there. And that actually became the next blocker that you had to, when then yourself out of, to be able to take the next risk, right? And there was an interim step here between the freelance and then moving to this position of the COO of this energy company. And that was a different kind of business, a business idea. And that you kind of pursued in the meantime. So do you want to quickly talk us through that, what you learned in the process and how you ended up where you ended up?
Avril:Yeah. So I like to not put too much pressure on things and just allow yourself to fail. And I think, you know, nobody gets to where they are without failing. And so I tried a few different things. I had a couple of ideas and probably didn't give myself permission to truly pursue it. If I'm being completely honest, I did get in my own way, but then when this opportunity came and. To the when then fallacy, I was when betting myself on when I have this sorted, then I'll be able to do that thing. But when this opportunity came, I recognized it for what it was. And I just, I remember saying to one of my business partners, Jonathan, right. I am all in and everything that I've done in the last. 16 months has prepared me for this opportunity and I'm going to take it to hands and race away to the gates with it. So that was really cool in that having someone else invite me into their idea and to be able to be an integral part of taking that from concept through to commercialization in only 12 weeks, which is pretty incredible. Huge,
Terry:huge. Yeah. So. You're skipping over so much stuff here because you're way too humble. You're way too humble. This is such a valuable part of it, right? Like you pursuing the next thing. So you were in and out a little bit with the freelancing and you were, I'd say trying to get this other thing off the ground, but it just, something wasn't quite there. Yeah. And that in itself is a signal. If you look back in retrospect, you would say it was never going to be the thing. And that's a great thing to actually get to that point. It's actually such good progress because now you move to the next thing, right? Cause it's not quite that, it could be possibly this, but you have to actually give yourself the opportunity to get that knowledge to get to that point. You're like, why aren't I putting absolutely everything, something is missing here. What is that? Is that a signal in and of itself? Yeah. You know, you can't go around that, right? Like even for Ryan and myself. You know, we started in financial advice, we dropped financial advice in the first six months. Now our licensee would have looked at us and gone, Oh, these guys couldn't
Avril:cut it.
Terry:The Australian Bureau of Statistics would actually have us down as another small business that failed instead of actually realizing that it's, it is actually the next evolution. So it's so overblown these stats a lot of the time. So overblown and really what's happening is people moving through evolutions and iterations, but you read the headline stat and it makes you sit back in your chair and stay in your cubicle and never take a chance again because most small businesses fail.
Avril:Yeah, that didn't track the people behind
Terry:such an illusion. It's such an illusion. Like that's all part of the process. And soon as you're okay with that and you just separate and compartmentalize that social threat, just go about your business. You can open yourself up to these other opportunities and you're a hundred percent, right? Because everything you had done along the way to prepare yourself, to educate yourself, to build the skills, to build the confidence, to have the knowledge, to have the awareness, everything. Kind of lined up for this opportunity where you actually stepped in and filled a massive gap in this little venture at the start, wasn't it? Because these guys that you're working with. Literally don't know how you do what you do, and they needed that help. And it's a vital role in this organization at that period of time. And you got to take that opportunity. So just take us, slow us down, take us into that moment. Give us a little bit more detail about what was happening, how the whole thing
Avril:came about. Yeah. So I got a call out of the blue one day and, it was actually my friend, Jonathan, of. 13 years, and coincidentally, brother in law as well, and he rang and said he's got this idea, and he wanted a hand to see if it had legs. And, we pitched to get into the University of Newcastle I2N Business Accelerator program. For this year and we were accepted and we're like, okay, cool. Like, I don't, I don't know what this means, but we'll just show up week on week and see what happens. So that was for 12 weeks and week after week, we built bits and pieces more and more and more. And yeah, so in the 12 weeks of the program, we went from. Literally just an idea on paper, mapping out and drawing all the mind maps and, and business model canvases and how it would work to now having onboarded nine customers across 18 sites and a pipeline of 14 future developments without tech specified in their design documentation. So it's been an absolute wild ride. But it's been amazing and now the opportunities that are available to us, having gone through that program and having accelerated the business through that period of time, I don't think would have happened if we had have done it just on our own. So again, that process was invaluable, just like. Your program that I did, you know, 18 odd months ago, in just having that ability to show up, having to show progress week after week, and having been held accountable by other people to actually get shit done.
Terry:You know what I love? You turn the social fear inside and on itself, and you use it to propel the progress, right? Because essentially what you're doing, whenever you get into an environment and a community like this, It's literally pulling you in that direction and you've got people relying on you, you want to get results, you've got accountabilities, you've got deliverables. And for me, it's actually amazing what you've got done. I don't think many people understand this, but to take a business from nothing to what you've just described is. Like very, very, very hard to do, very impressive. It takes so many businesses so much longer to be able to get there. And I think a big part of that is obviously the team, who you guys are, but the environment you put yourselves in and being in a community that's normalizing that behavior and it's dragging you in that direction and demanding those results, huge, huge thing to do. What was it like through the process? I know like you were head down, bum up all the way through it. It was hard, right? You were driving up to Newcastle, what, two to three days a week, managing the kids, like really putting it in. Yeah.
Avril:From, from Sydney. So it's a two hour, 20 minute each way trip. So four and a half hours traveling two to three times a week. So yeah, it was. It's pretty hectic. I'm glad that it's over. I'm glad thankfully for zooms and teams and all of that jazz that we can do things remotely and it opened up the business as well for other opportunities outside of Newcastle, which we have done and have won a project now with city of Sydney. So it was tough. What was going through my mind was. What have we got to lose and what's the best chance of success? So I think when I take on new ideas or projects or things, I think, you know, what does it look like if it fails? If this was going to fail, what would I. And if it's basically then inverting that and doing the complete opposite. And so I think, and even with the freelance stuff, like going six months freelance last year with two little kids, some of those shoots were at 2am in the morning where we could close down streets of Sydney. So logistically that's really hard to organize with a family and out shooting from yeah, 8am to 12. PM and then backing up the next day, 2 AM to 4 PM. And so it's big days and a lot to do. And I think like, I call it eating glass. It's just that eating glass period where it does suck, but the rewards that you get on the other side are what's worth the sucky part. And also in that. Suckiness, that's how you grow and that's how you see what you're made of. And I think that's where I get a lot of my quote unquote confidence from in myself, going from like my little mouse trapped in the wheel when we first did the life by design to now knowing that you actually can handle it. It's hardcore and it's draining and it's all of those things, but also you don't die. Like I'm, I'm not going to die if I work hard. And so just leaning into that and just being like, you know, it is going to stop for a period of time, but afterwards it's new things will come of it and that chapter will close and the next one will open and it won't be like that. And you have the opportunity to choose.
Terry:It's funny, like, I think you can work hard for a little bit to become who you need to be to get what you want, or you can find it hard working and continue to find it hard. It's all hard work. Which hard work is going to get you more of what you want?
Avril:And I guess it's a piece of that puzzle too, where it's like, create the undeniable proof that you are who you are. You say you want to be or who you say you are, like, I guess that's it. Like that's where you gather that undeniable proof where, when that phone call came in for the new opportunity, I was like, yes, I, everything I've done is set me up for this, I'm ready. So I think that was, they're the things that you want to sort of chase and pursue is how can I collect those proof points or those data points for myself that I can confidently say yes or no to certain things. And
Terry:you should call that as well, right? It doesn't mean you don't face doubt. You literally face it every day, every day. It doesn't go away. It's just your discipline isn't whether you feel doubt or not. It's actually just whether you keep doing the thing you need to do. Right. I think that's a whole mosey thing. He talks about that. Like it's, you judge yourself based on how you feel about the thing. Oh, maybe you don't have the confidence or conviction. You actually do because you're continuing to act in pursuit of what you want, regardless of how you feel. You got shit ton of conviction. That's what conviction looks
Avril:like. Yeah. Can I honestly tell you, that was me today, like this morning, brought the kids off and I was like, how am I going to do any work today? I'm so tired. Like it's. I nearly canceled this. So I was like, maybe I can just reschedule it to next week. When then? When I have more energy.
Terry:You and I were thinking the exact same thing. I'm like, Holy shit. I've been up since two 30. My little girl wanted in, in her beautifulness. She wanted in and decided she was going to kick me. Until 5 a. m. So I got up and train and then I've been buggered. I'm like, this is the worst part of the day, but let's do it.
Avril:Totally, totally, same. I was like, Oh God, I don't know if I can do it to him. And so I was like, no Avril, make a cup of tea, put your big old pants on and get in there. That's so funny. We
Terry:both had the same little person on our shoulder, like just pick your socks up and you'll be fine. Yeah,
Avril:totally. And now we're loving it. It's actually
Terry:what it is. It is exactly right. It's actually a hundred percent right. I would love to get to, I guess, some reflections on this, right? So the journey itself, amazing. But it's actually, again, like we said before, who you become in the process, what you learn about yourself, what you learn about money, what you learn about. Life along the way. So let's go through those three. Actually, what have you learned about yourself?
Avril:I have learned that I can actually do anything, which sounds ridiculous, but if I can't do it, I'll find the people who can. And just recently I hit Ryan up cause we had an issue in our business. So it's like the what not who. So yeah, I think I believe that if there is a problem, you just go ahead in and you can fix it.
Terry:Love it. And then what about money? So along the way, you've had this whole big different experience with money all the way along. How do you use it to get more of what you want? Keep going after it to find what you're doing. What are the biggest lessons you pulled out of that?
Avril:The biggest lessons I've pulled out is money is lots of different things. It's a tool, a measure, an exchange of value. And ultimately. I'm not going to say it's not important, but it's not what I use to make decisions anymore. You know, my decisions are what's it going to build for me. And I'm the end product, if that makes sense. So at the end of my career, the person who I am and the parent that I am and the friend that I am, that's. It's more meaningful to me than how much I end up with in the bank. So it's definitely cliche, but it's the means, not the end.
Terry:What about life? What have you learned about life? You've taken this kind of big journey from a certain steady sort of place, gone out into the big bad world, handled it yourself. What have you taken from
Avril:that? It's definitely all attitude. So having two little kids and doing all that crazy freelance, and sometimes I was only sleeping like two to three hours. because I had little babies waking up through tonight and then having to go and back it up all day. And so I think you can either sit and say, I'm so tired and speak that into yourself. And then you feel those things, or you can just say, you know. I'm tired, dot, dot, dot, and that's okay, this is what has to happen next. So I think it really is all in how you frame it and how you, and life with little kids is so demanding and then it's really easy to then say, you know, I'm drained or I'm tired or work's just It's so hard and the big lesson I've learned for life is it is what you make it to be. So cups of tea, cups of coffee, the liquid hug, give yourself some comfort and just suck it up and let's go. And then, yeah. I
Terry:never used to drink coffee. And now I'm like, actually, I feel like I'm becoming a caffeine aficionado where I'm like this kind of caffeine at this stage of day. This particular, and it's all pre workout stuff we lead up. It's true. Do you know what I found that interesting though? Like it's actually the moments, like the five minutes before this interview where you and I are both having that conversation with ourselves and it's the days that you don't want to do it. Yeah. Where you decide to do it anyway. That's where you earn. All the return. All. You don't earn the return on the days that it's easy. You earn it on the days it's hard. So I kind of think about it and go, here's another opportunity to earn it. Here's another opportunity to deserve it. Yeah. And I recently had that episode on the podcast where I talked to that AFL legend and he said, it doesn't matter what I believe. My belief doesn't matter. It's whether I feel I deserve it or not. Yeah. And so do you keep doing it? Is it important enough to you to keep pursuing it even when you don't feel good? That's how you
Avril:deserve it. Yeah, I'd wholeheartedly agree. If you are going to take steps to change whatever situation you want to change, it's about, I love this too actually, because it came from that very first Life by Design, right? It was like, All this lovely, warm and fuzzy, good feeling, like beautiful picture of life. And then it was like, you know, what loss is driving you? And I think I do tap into the loss every day. It's like, what don't I want to see anymore? And that's the huge motivating part. And I'm a very happy go lucky, positive outlook person. It's not that I'm not like that, but it's just that the fear of losing is. A much bigger driver for me than the, the gain. And so I think about, you know, well, what would life look like if I don't do this? And then I'm like, well, no way I'm not living that life. That's shit. So when you don't feel like it, it's thinking through what it looks like if you don't do it. And what's the ripple on effect of that. And if you're willing to live with that or not.
Terry:I'm really glad you said that too, because I think. You know, the way we're, I guess, told to think about it is that all the negative stuff is bad. Negative equals bad. And the reality is all of behavioral economics shows that humans are about 1. 3 times more motivated by the pain of loss. And they are the pleasure of gain. Totally. That's right, mate. It's a lot more anyway. So the point is like, you're just tapping into how your brain's wired and you're using that to get more of what you want. So it's not that you're not actually pushing towards that positive future. It's how you push toward it. And in the moments that you are uncomfortable, it ain't the fluffy vision that's going to get you going. It is the painful, it is the uncomfortable feeling of, I don't want to be this version of me. I want to be this version of me. And I'm moving from there to here. And the way I do that is I take this action here right now. And that's how you keep, keep doing it. So I'm really glad you said this. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think a lot of people are too scared to tap into that feeling.
Avril:You asked me about it earlier and I probably didn't touch on it hard enough, but that was the biggest unlock for me throughout this whole process, that right there. Yeah,
Terry:it was that I am done with feeling like I'm aware, working hard, getting nowhere. That was really what it came down to, right? I'm done with this.
Avril:I am absolutely done with living life like this. Yeah. I'm done with having other people's judgment of whoever it is, friends, family, whatever, speak things into me and then me just, you know, listening to them and listening to what they have to say. And it was like, am I going to let these people stop me from doing this shit that I want to do? Yeah,
Terry:and I remember you also telling me that there was opportunities that you wanted, growth opportunities that you wanted in the careers that you'd had. And it was just always, always, always sort of a, yeah, yeah. When then, when then, when then maybe, and it's just never quite, other people's terms, not on your
Avril:terms. A hundred percent. And I do understand it now putting the hat on of a business owner. There's jobs that need done and, and I get that, but that was the other people's terms and vocalizing. Where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do, and then just, yeah, yeah. Okay. You know, the next one that comes on, you, you can have a go at that. And then, you know, Oh, no, no, no. We'll just keep you doing that thing. so now it's a hundred percent on my terms and it's, uh, I wouldn't say scary, like, but I've still got the adrenaline, which is cool. Like, I'm like, I don't know how to do this, but let's just work it out. Who do I know?
Terry:Yeah, sure. Yeah. There are a lot of. Highly educated, highly capable people who are listening to this, sitting there right now and going, that's me. That is me. Avril is me. What advice would you give that person about what to do next?
Avril:I would say just try. It sounds cliche, but just give it a go. Just take one step in that direction and see what happens because, you know, my one step was emailing a, an agent, a booking agent. That led to a coffee, which led to a contract, which led to six months worth of work. So it was one email and likewise with reaching out to you guys. It was, I think it was like even a, an Instagram message or something. And then next minute we're on a call and it's just one step towards what that future looks like for you. And then just ask yourself, like, what have you got to lose? By doing it. And what does life look like if you don't take that step? And that combination of those things is what gives me the conviction to back myself and believe in my ability to get it done. And if I don't know how, then to work out how. You know, we give ourselves all these reasons of why we can't. You know, take this one step. You could do this one thing. And then people say, Oh, but I can't do it because of this thing. Or I can't do it because of that thing. And it's like, but they're actually not real blockers. You know, like just take the one thing, just do the one thing right now. Tomorrow. No, don't do the tomorrow. When then? Right now. Do one thing right now.
Terry:The confidence doesn't come until after, and it doesn't come until you've got repeated exposure, repeated exposure. It doesn't come till after this, right? Even this is our, what's it be? I don't know. Our hundredth podcast. I don't know when this one's coming out. somebody will tell me, but a hundred episodes in, it feels so different to when it did, when it started. You're watching yourself, you're thinking about it, but you have to give yourself permission to be quote unquote bad to get good. There is actually no way around it. So why not just like move through it, give yourself the grace, let that be okay. I look back and season one now I'm like, Oh my God, I don't want to listen to it, but it's us, you know, it's so real. It's exactly what
Avril:it's like. It's the evolution. Yeah. It's
Terry:the evolution and I'm proud of the content, but who we are and how we feel about it now is just so, so different and it just doesn't come without just doing it.
Avril:You might be embarrassed, but I listened to those episodes three times before I spoke to you. So it definitely is valuable.
Terry:No, I'm glad. Where to from here, Ab, you're on this epic trajectory. As I said, it's so rare to see a business. Get off the ground this quickly, become a real thing. What is the goal? Where are you going to? Where are we going to see you in another 12 to 18
Avril:months? In another 12 to 18 months, we'll definitely have staff, which is a very exciting thought. Have a few extra hands on board and we'll be across a few more LGAs with councils and, and be market leaders in the electrification process that our society is going to go through over the next five to 10 years.
Terry:Yeah, just give us a little bit of a handoff to tell us where we can find out more about what you're doing, where you're at, and the best ways to connect
Avril:with you. Yeah, sure. So you can find me on LinkedIn, you can just search Avril Dunne and I'll come up as co founder of the EI platform, Energy Intelligence Platform. You can go to www. ei platform. com and that's our website. And yeah, we're helping businesses electrify and manage the electrification process, but also manage their peak demand and overall costs associated with energy. So, yeah, bye! Using energy more smartly, then it betters the environment as well. So it's kind of win win all around. Your
Terry:analogy actually is the best way to describe it. So why don't you
Avril:tell us about one? Oh yeah, sure. it's like an Apple watch for a building. So there's a hardware device that gets installed to the main switchboard. And then we have a SAS platform and that's what our users interface with for all of the energy insights.
Terry:Amazing. And really important thing, particularly over the next five to 10 years, while everything changes so fast. So it's pretty cool that there are people that are already seeing this. I don't doubt they're going to be plenty more of those where that came from. So I'm really looking forward to seeing where you can take this. It's been an epic pleasure to have you as part of what we've been doing and to see what you've been doing to inspire others. So
Avril:absolutely keep it up. Well, thank you. And, um, just on a really fitting note to finish, I learnt yesterday that the energy infrastructure management companies, won't name names, they don't have the data to be able to manage How much people need capacity wise to put electric vehicles on across the city basis. So even the big guys don't know what the hell's going on. So, you know, I think that's a really comforting thing that no one knows what the hell they're doing. So just give it a go, take that one step in that direction and see what happens. Well, you're on the
Terry:frontier. And first movers can absolutely take the advantage and that's exactly what you're doing. So kudos to you and, let's talk again soon. I'd love to see where things are at.
Avril:Yeah. Thanks Legend. I'll keep in touch.