The Freelance Writer’s Playbook with Nevin Martell

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“No one buys a story—editors buy a pitch.” That’s the frame for today’s conversation with D.C.–area journalist, photographer and writing coach Nevin Martell. You’ve seen his byline in places like The Washington Post, Washingtonian and The Boston Globe. He’s the author of eight books (including Looking for Calvin and Hobbes, The Founding Farmers Cookbook and the Red Truck Bakery Cookbook). This episode is a practical, candid look at how to build and sustain a writing life.

Nevin lays out his ladder—social → local → regional → national, and explains why editors buy pitches, not finished stories. We talk about sharpening ideas, writing tight queries and why relationships and reputation are the real currency. 

There’s frank talk on “working for exposure,” managing rejection and uncertainty, and balancing service pieces that pay the bills with work that feeds your soul. 

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Transcript

Chris Spear: [00:00:00] No one buys a story. Editors buy a pitch. That's how DC area journalist Nevin Martel frames the freelance writing business. Today we get into the craft, the hustle, and how to stay sane while doing this work. This is Chris Spear and you're listening to Chefs Without Restaurants. The show where I speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of our traditional restaurant setting.

I have 33 years of working in kitchens but not restaurants, and currently operate a personal chef service doing dinner parties in the Washington DC area. My guest this week is writer, photographer and writing coach Nevin Martel. You might have seen his byline in places like the Washington Post and Washingtonian, and he's the author of eight books, including Freak Show Without Attend, and Surprisingly, or maybe not a book about the musician Beck.

Actually, Nevin and I talked about music for probably about 45 minutes. [00:01:00] Unfortunately, I decided to cut out most of that from this episode. As enjoyable as it was for me, I really wanted to focus exclusively on writing for the show today. So we spent most of our time on the how behind his career, what it really looks like to build a life in food and culture journalism.

We talk about a love for the permanence of print, even in an online first world, and also something really important in almost any industry, and that's reputation and relationships. And if you're actually trying to break into writing, you'll love Nevins practical roadmap of how to do it. He talks about how to craft a tight, irresistible pitch, but he also shares his stance on working for free AKA exposure.

We all love that one, don't we? I'll link to some of Nevins work in the show notes because he has written a lot of stuff and I'm a huge fan, and if you enjoy this episode and know someone who you think should hear it, of course, I'd love for you to share it. [00:02:00] Please make sure you're subscribed on your favorite podcast app, and if you have 30 seconds, leave a reigning in review.

It really helps us reach more listeners. As always, thanks so much for listening and have a great week. Hey Nevin, how's it going? Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. 

Nevin Martell: Chris, I am really, truly so excited to be here and so honored that, uh, I'm a guest of yours. I'm just looking forward to this conversation so much.

Chris Spear: So you are a journalist and we've been digging deep into music here, but let's talk about, um, the wri the writing. So you've been doing this for so long, right? Um. Is this something you were always interested in? Like are you someone who as a kid, like did writing like, I don't know, fiction writing or storytelling?

Like how did you even get into that in the first place? 

Nevin Martell: Yeah, I mean, as I started out as a diehard reader, I mean I loved reading as a kid. I would get up a couple hours before school to read and um, I came from a family that [00:03:00] absolutely reveres books, my grandfather. My uncle, uh, my grandfather's son were, uh, rare book and ephemera dealers.

So like both of their homes were just chock a block full with books of all types from all parts of the world. And they had a giant barn in the back because they lived next to each other also full of books. So I grew up just loving reading and loving storytelling and like really, you know, reveering the idea of books.

Authors and so yeah, I started, you know, like I would journal when we traveled. I always kept a travel journal when I grew up when I was growing up, which I loved. Um, I was kinda like my mom's deal, like if we're traveling, especially if you're gonna not be in school, you still have to be doing something.

So I would journal at first, kind of like, because she told me to then because I enjoyed it and you know, worked for the high school paper and then worked for my college paper for four years. I was the arts and enter arts and entertainment editor for three of the four years. At Vassar and loved it. And, [00:04:00] uh, you know, when I got to New York when I graduated, even though I was working at Atlantic Records as an executive assistant in the new media department, the first thing I wanted to do was like start freelancing.

So made friends with this guy Michael Krugman, who's to this day, one of my best friends. And, um, he was working in the press department there, as you know, writing bios and press releases, that kind of thing. And he had written a couple of books, uh, including an unauthorized biography of Oasis and. This cultural book called Generation X and I was like, you know, he was in magazines and I was just so, so impressed.

I was like, dude, I wanted, how do you get into the places where you get into and get to talk about the things you get to talk about? And um, he was really generous and introduced me to a couple of editors and actually also introduced me to my first book agent who, um, helped me sell my first book, which was an unauthorized biography of the Dave Matthews Band.

Which, you know, to be honest, I still get checks for to this day. Like I can afford like a latte with the checks that I get [00:05:00] now. But, you know, at the time it was significant and uh, certainly gave me a lot of confidence in terms of my journey as a writer. Even though I look back at that in the next book I wrote, which is an unauthorized book, uh, biography of Beck, and I kind of winced because, you know, you're like, God, I was learning how to write like in the public eye in the sense that I would.

Not wanna re-release either of those books as you know, they went off the market, you know, and I was given the chance. I'd be like, oh man, 

Chris Spear: gimme a redo. Everyone has to start somewhere. I mean, I, I talk about that with this podcast. I mean, um, 250 plus episodes in and as much as I want, that is so impressive, man.

Five years. It's been more than five years. So in 52 weeks in a year, I mean, pretty consistently. One, one a week, give or take. And as much as I would love to go back to those first ones and like just be like, these needs have. Be gone. Yeah. I realized that I had great conversations. I just didn't know how to edit either.

Um, conversationally take stuff [00:06:00] out or from an audio standpoint, but it's like they're, they're gonna stay up and at least I can remaster them if I want. Like, if I'm like, I talked to this guy, we had a great conversation, now I know so much more. Let me edit it. I can do that. You, you can't really do that with what you did with your book.

So it just lives out there in the world for people to see. But you can point to it and say, Hey, I did something. 'cause a lot of people don't. Do anything like that. They say they want to and then they don't. But yes, I understand the pain of looking back at previous works. 

Nevin Martell: Yeah, no, I feel very privileged that I was able to have those opportunities early in my career because I was super young.

I was like 22 when I got my first book deal and. I just was so gra gratified that somebody saw the value of the ideas that I was pitching at the time and gave me the place and the space to do it. And it's a part of the growth as you were talking about. You know, it's like you have to do those things to get, to do, be better and get to do other things later on.

You know, it's all, [00:07:00] um, everything builds upon something before it. And, um, no, I mean, I learned a lot from, from writing those books and, uh. I think I learn a lot every time I write a book or every time even I write an article or do an interview. I mean, there's always something to be learned from the process of doing what you do, no matter how good you are at it.

And, um, for me, like keeps this kind of work really exciting, you know, is trying to figure out how to keep fine tuning it, find new ways of doing it, and, you know, find new ways of telling the story and do it in the best way possible. That's the most engaging way possible. That changes both for you as a storyteller and what kind of audiences expect, I mean, when I was writing it, first it was all for magazines.

It was all for print, and you know, then it, then the internet started to creep in and now it's like it's 50 50 and even obviously the one half that's 50% print that will end up online as well, you know, so everything ends up. You know, online in one way, shape, or form? 

Chris Spear: Well, it's funny, [00:08:00] my in-laws live with us and they have the Washington Post paper because they're in their eighties and they like that.

But the lead is, it comes out online first. So it'll be funny. Like you'll share an article of something you write. Yeah, and I'll see it and then they'll like come up on Wednesday if it's in the food section or whatever. It'd be like, oh, there's this article, and I try not to. Like my gut react like right away.

I'm like, oh yeah, I've already read that. Like, uh, you know? Yeah. And, and now I'm like, oh, thank you so much. I'll take a look at it. But it's like, yeah, I read this like three days ago and they shared this on Facebook. 

Nevin Martell: That being said, still I love to see the printed product because the layout is just so much better.

The headline is often much different than the SEO. Formatted headline online. The one on the printed page, I always find like, and maybe it's 'cause I'm old school and I came up this way, it's more reads, more like an old school magazine or newspaper headline. You know, there's puns, there's a little bit more word play.

It doesn't have to be so literal in terms of just getting people to click on it because it's clickbaity [00:09:00] or it just kind of fulfills all the words that need to be in it in order for someone to search it and find it. I just find it's a little, the writing is a little bit more graceful as far as the hes and the decks go and, and certainly the scale of it.

You know, like if you're on the, when you have a cover story on the food section and you're just like, oh my God, this is gigantic. 

Chris Spear: I still have, anytime anyone, uh, writes something about me or my business or I get the opportunity to write, I have a print copy and I have a bin Smart, and I have like every magazine, everything, and it's, I don't know, it's kind of nerdy, but I love to open this and be like, this was when I was in this magazine.

This was when I was in this. Thing and having it, and you know, like DC like Laura Hayes writes about me in the city paper. I literally drove into DC to like pick, make sure I could like, pick up a physical copy of this so that I had, 'cause also, so many of these things are, they're going away offline. Like it's an online article and then, you know, you have it in your bio online.

Yeah. And you click on it one day and it's completely gone. And there's no record of the thing that you wrote, you know? 

Nevin Martell: [00:10:00] No, it, you know, we used to think of the internet as so permanent. We were like, this is a solution. Like it will always live on the internet. And you're like, no, actually a lot of these websites go the way of MySpace.

You know? Yeah. Like they just aren't here anymore. And like even dcs, I haven't checked in a while, but I mean like, they kept it up for at least a year. I don't know if it's offline now, but you know it when websites started to go out, you know, out of business and offline, I was like, I did what you did. I would start to print out everything that was published online only just so I'd have a copy.

Because a lot of work went into it, and who knows if I'll ever look at it again or my son or anybody else, but like you, it's, it's nice to have that acknowledgement of the work that you did or the recognition for the work that you got. Um, you know, I don't think it's dorky at all. I think, you know, I think it's, uh, I think it's wonderful and.

I have to say, it's always so gratifying when you walk into a restaurant or even someone's home and you see a, a framed copy of something that you wrote [00:11:00] about them and their business because you know, like so many people walk by it, maybe a tiny fraction of them look at that, of that tiny fraction of, a tiny fraction of that will read the byline of who wrote it.

Yeah. Um, but you know, you know that you're kind of playing a role in the Yeah. The experience of that place or that person. And that's, that's, that's really cool. And it's, it's gratifying, given how much time and effort goes into the pieces. 

Chris Spear: Yeah. I've put so much of that on my websites because, you know, professional writers can say it better than I can sometimes.

You know, you try to articulate what you do or what your business is, but then you sit down with someone for a couple hours and then they write this great thing and you're like, this needs to be like on my bio page, on my website, and I'll credit them and link the article because they did a much better job.

Of describing what it is I do. So it's always appreciated when someone wants to take the time and talk to me about, you know, something I've done. I think that's really cool. 

Nevin Martell: No, and I mean, you've done so many cool things like, you know, I imagine your clips file is significant. 

Chris Spear: For those who want to [00:12:00] get into doing kind of what you do, especially like freelancing, whether it be full-time, part-time.

Mm-hmm. Where, where do you suggest people start? Like how do, if let's say they have some decent writing skills and we're not talking about like learning, writing from the beginning, where do they start? 

Nevin Martell: Yeah, so what I would say is, you know, it's a four step program. It's social, local, regional, national. So first of all, kind of practice on social media.

You know, in terms of writing captions, taking photos, um, you know, photos or videos might not be like your thing. You might be really just interested in the writing, but I can tell you in the food space. And those adjacent to it, like being a good enough photographer that you can post pictures of your meals or your experiences or your trips, um, is, is really key.

So start on social. So you're kind of building up some skills in terms of writing about what you're eating, where you're going, what you're experiencing. Then the first place you want to pitch, or local publications. So like in DC it would be pitching [00:13:00] something like, um, you know, Washington City Paper or a smaller publication of that nature.

Then moving up kind of like the local ladder, places like Bethesda, Arlington magazine, and you know, wa and then ultimately places like Washingtonian and um, the Washington Post, you know, eater would be in that mix of course. And then you kind of think about regional publications. So you like, might think a little bit farther afield like.

Virginia living or, uh, something else up and down the Mid-Atlantic coast that, uh, you know, has a little bit of a wider reach and is not specific to d the DC area. And then, you know, the gold standard, you know, ultimately is like trying to get into national publications, which you should not try to rush.

There's opportunities to like, you know, kind of write, uh, online for some, you know, major. National publications rather than the magazines themselves. But even that, you're gonna wanna have like a pretty good portfolio of clips to show an [00:14:00] editor that you know what you're doing and that you can deliver on what you're promising in your pitch as far as that goes.

Like you're really gonna wanna learn how to write a pitch. I actually teach a class at at politics and prose, not to show myself. But yeah, and because that is like such a key skill because if you don't know how to write a pitch. You don't know how to execute it well. Like you just, the best story will never get sold and the best writer will never get heard.

And so, um, yeah, it's a three week class. It's very action oriented, very technique and, uh, tip driven. And you get two rounds of feedback from me on, on a pitch. So when you walk away, you'll have at least, you'll have one pitch that's like ready to go to send to an editor or editors, uh, and the skills to write others based on what you've learned.

And, um. I love those classes because like, I actually just had a writing coaching session with a former student of mine and she had, um, wanted to transition out of a, a role in radio where she was not [00:15:00] writing, uh, she was on the like talent, uh, management or like kind of, uh, you know, finding people for interviews and stuff to do on inter air interviews and she'd wanted to like, get into writing herself.

And she came to class and she had this awesome idea for a story and she had like positioned it pretty well and needed some tweaking in terms of her pitch. I was like, I know exactly where you should sell this. And like, you clearly have like a great eye for a story and you know the drive and determination that it's gonna take to succeed.

And sure enough, she started freelancing and has been writing for the last year. We were meeting to see about where she's gonna take her career next, like what level she wants to go to next, and how much more time she wants to devote to it. And that's really gratifying. Like, I love hearing from former students or better yet just picking up a publication and being like, Hey, I know that person.

Like, you know, I, I remember you even like talking about this story, like, you know, when you took the class. So, um, yeah, that's, that's so it, that's really gratifying for me, like that it's nice to be able to pass on some of that, that [00:16:00] knowledge. 

Chris Spear: Do you recommend starting with a, a full like story article?

Like do you just, you have a passion for this place or this thing and you want to go and write it? Or is it just like, Hey, I want to, I think it would be a great idea to write about this park or this restaurant, or the chef? Start with the idea before you invest all the time and actually write a piece.

Yeah. Do, do not write 

Nevin Martell: the story. I mean, no one buys a story. Everybody buys a pitch because you know there's gonna be negotiations like what the format is. What the word count what the tone is. You know, come with an idea that has a strong angle and a, and a unique element to it that somebody hasn't seen before or hasn't been written about in the publication or the region that you wanna cover it in.

Um, but definitely do not write the full story. The only time that you would ever really write a full story before trying to sell it or place it as if you're writing for like. New York Times Modern Love or something like that, that is like something where you have to submit a full story in order to be accepted.[00:17:00] 

Um, but you know, that is the, the rarity, not the regularity. Um, so normally it's just a pitch and I recommend like nothing more than like a married, thick paragraph. That's what you wanna keep it to. 'cause editors, they don't have time, they don't have focus. Yeah. And that's not a, that, I'm not saying that in a disparaging way.

I just mean like they get pitched so many stories. You just have to make a great impression with yours very quickly and make them wanna buy it. 

Chris Spear: But if you haven't done the research or done the story, like have you ever done a pitch and then you get into writing it and then it goes in a different place than you were expecting and like how does that work out?

Once that conversation with an editor, because I could see that where you think, you know how this story's gonna go. Yeah. And then you dig in and maybe it's even more interesting, but it's like not what you pitched. 

Nevin Martell: Yeah. Well that does happen occasionally. You know, I would say that happens more for writers that are working.

A ma head at a publication because they just have a little bit more latitude. They'll be, they'll say like, I wanna look at, [00:18:00] say, you know, this issue in the restaurant industry, and they get into it and it turns out to be more complex. Or maybe it turns out to not be the way they think that it is. And like then they have to kind of pivot, you know, as a freelancer, like you have to do enough research in advance that you can propose the story.

Even, even though you don't have time to do the interviews or anything like that upfront, um, every once in a while you'll find that the story changes because of things beyond your control or because you learn something in the research that makes it go in a different direction. But honestly, as a freelancer who gets paid by the word rather than by the hour, you really wanna know what you're pitching when you sell the story because.

Even though you may have to go down other rabbit holes, like you don't have the luxury of doing that regularly just because that's time, which means money and you know, if you're not writing, you're not getting paid. And so, um, like sometimes things come up though. Like, for [00:19:00] example, the story I did on the, uh, Appalachian couple in Asheville that, uh, forge for wild truffles, I'd handed in the story in September of last year.

It was a, it was a very straightforward profile about them, and then the hurricane hit and I had to go back and rewrite. It was not about rewriting, it was about kind of inserting and kind of readjusting the narrative and it went from a 1200 word piece to a 2000 word piece, which was great, but it was not the story that I had first written or nor was it the story that I pitched in the sense that like it became a story of both discovery but also recovery.

And, um, you can't, you can't plan for hurricane. 

Chris Spear: Yeah. That's kind of, you know, for me it's a little different, but with the podcasting, like, I know about you and I have an idea of what I wanna talk about, but then it could go in this wild direction where like, oh, that's what this is gonna be like. I already have in my head like, almost like what the title of our episode's gonna be.

And then like, you reveal this thing and you go, you pull this thread and you go down this thing and it's like. [00:20:00] I enjoyed it, but like it didn't go anywhere where I thought it was gonna go. And you know, sometimes, yeah, sometimes you have to wrangle it back in a little bit and then sometimes you're like, I'm gonna give it a little leeway to like, go off in this direction.

That might get a little weird. And um, you mentioned getting paid by the words, so let's talk about pay. Yeah. Do you recommend doing any work for free If you're starting out and nobody's seen your stuff? 

Nevin Martell: You know, when you're just starting out, it can be helpful to do a few pieces for free if you're getting great editorial oversight and you're learning in the process and your work is getting in front of the right readers.

Um, generally as a rule though, I don't recommend ever working for free. Um, I just philosophically am opposed to the idea of not getting paid for the time, effort, and energy put into something. In the beginning, if you know that your story is gonna get a good edit and it's gonna be in a good publication in front of a good [00:21:00] audience, sure.

Write a few stories for free so you have some clips, and then say Thank you. Like if you need more, I'm here. Let's talk about what my rate's gonna be. And if they say, well, we've really enjoyed you as a free rider, but we don't wanna pay you. That's when you take the good clips that you've earned, that you've created and you go somewhere else that will pay you.

Chris Spear: Yeah. But it can't, I mean, it can open doors and sometimes I feel like maybe that's the way you get your foot in the door. I don't know. We get into this all the time, like with chefs, it's free food. With photographers, it's like they're, you know, shooting for exposure. Exposure doesn't pay the bills. I know all that and I've been on both sides.

I've done free work that is. That paid off and I've done free work that didn't lead to anything. And I guess maybe getting better at knowing like what a true opportunity is. 

Nevin Martell: My favorite saying about exposure is people die of exposure every day. Why would I open myself up to that? You know, when I started out, back in the day, I don't think, I mean, of course I worked for my college paper for [00:22:00] free.

Uh, and there's been a couple of times over the years that I've worked. I've done like a free thing and certainly I've worked for publications that pay far less than I feel like I should be paid for the work that I'm doing or that are just kind of the kinds of publications that don't have the kinds of budgets.

But, you know, it's a favor for someone. It's a great audience. Like it's an editor that you wanna work with or something like that. Um, but yeah, no, it, it is, you know, I think, um, it's something to really consider at the beginning of your career and I think. As a writer anyway, as you go forward, you really have to kind of put your foot down because it's not like a photographer where it's kind of like, Hey, you know, I'll shoot this for you.

And we can both use the images. Like I may be able to license them to somebody. You're gonna put them on your website. Um, you know, there's not kind of like, you know, usually if you write something that's very specific and doesn't kind of have that. Wider usefulness. I, I certainly recognize for you as a chef, that's hard.

You know, it's like, yeah. You know, you do events, you know, and, you know, free [00:23:00] food and like other work may come out of that, or like your brand may get exposure. Uh, but you know it, but it, it is a real, it is a real question. And I think the other part of it that's hard for writers is that it's a business.

Yes. But there's just really one thing that's being offered, you know? Yeah. Like you as a chef, there are like multiple ways you can use that skillset to make money. Writers. Yes, there are multiple outlets or multiple, you know, types of writing you can do. But at the end of the day, it's just the writing.

You know, little chefs, you have a much, it's just you, 

Chris Spear: you have a much higher cost because you have the goods cost. Yeah. Not the time isn't worth something. But ev that is where it gets really challenging. 'cause it's like, oh, we need, you know, 400 plates for this event. And it's like, well that's like there's an actual.

Tangible product cost on top of time. But, you know, I've, I've done a little writing and it was, you know, like I always went to the Star Chefs Convention in New York, which is one of my favorite events. Oh yeah. And I was paying to go every year. And one year they reached out to me and they said, well, you're gonna be here anyway.

Um, I know you're gonna come. Do you [00:24:00] wanna start writing editorials for us while you're here? So that's kind of how that started. But like from a relationship standpoint, so Caroline Hatchett was my editor there. She's great to work with, you know, and then she just. Like moves on. And then a couple years down the road she lands at Plate Magazine and it's then she comes and says like, Hey, actually she saw something that I had posted on Instagram and said, I think this is a great story.

And led off right with like, we would love you to write this. Here's what our budget is. Do you want to do this? And it's like, uh, that was great because that doesn't usually happen that I know of. But for me it was like one of those things where like at least we had built this relationship and it was starting to pay off, you know?

'cause I came, you know, I wrote like. 500 word, like little wrap up of like, you came and watched the chef do this demo. Here's what it was, here's what I learned. And then she edits it up and it gave me like a little showcase of things where I could say, Hey, go to this website. And I have like nine editorials on there and it's pretty cool.

And that lived on their website for like five [00:25:00] or six years. Um, but it was really nice to kind of see that that led to my first paid writing thing. Then I can hold up and take to the next, you know, so I've done a little of this. I don't know that it's something I would go deep in. To, but it's, it was kind of great that, that like opened a door for me.

Nevin Martell: Yeah, no, and I have to say, like you have put a pin right on like a key element, which you know, is true for every business, but like, I think writers tend to forget it sometimes because, you know, their heads are, you know, in the hole or in the work, which is just relationships. Like, you know, there are, I have some editors that I've worked with.

Across multiple publications across, you know, multiple decades at this point. And publicists that I've worked with, people, you know, that work in other parts of media that I've worked with for, you know, a long, long time. And it's really gratifying when someone appreciates your work and enjoys working with you enough that you know, they wanna continue that relationship when they go somewhere else or when they're doing something new and they see [00:26:00] the value you could bring to that.

Chris Spear: I think so much of it's relationships. I mean, almost everyone who's been on this show is from a relationship. Again, like people will say, how did you get so and so on your show? It's like, well, I've been in this industry for like 30 years. Like I'm 48. Yeah. I started in kitchens at 16. You know, like, yeah. I didn't just like yesterday start this like, it's been years of, you know, going to the Star Chef's Congress for 10 years in a row.

Yeah. And going for four days, you know. Every year Meeting new people. Yeah. Talking to new people, building relationships. I've done a lot of, you know, social media connecting with people. Yeah. So that I can reach out to one of these people and say, Hey, we'd love to talk to you. So it didn't just miraculously happen.

Yes. Sometimes people reach out and you're like, oh, that would be really cool. But it's, so much of it's come from relationship building and then. Asking, which I think is, yeah. You know, I'm sure you like, pitching is hard. I, I don't think everyone naturally comes by that. Like, okay, I'm confident in this ability or thing I wanna do now I have to put myself out there, maybe face some [00:27:00] rejection and say like, Hey, do you want to take a chance on me?

Can we do this thing? Because I think that's hard. 

Nevin Martell: You really have to be, as a freelancer, especially just comfortable with the idea of rejection and, and uncertainty, because those are the two common threads of your, of any freelancer's career. No matter how successful it is, you know, um, you will constantly have to come up with new ideas and a bunch of them are gonna get rejected.

Hopefully as you get better, a smaller and smaller number, uh, and hopefully as you get better, you will figure out ways to. Rewrite and reconfigure those ideas and pitch them to somebody else and find success with them. But it's an invariable that you know, inevitable, that you'll come up with ideas that you believe in and think are perfect for an editor or a publication.

And you know, you'll just be greeted with rejection or you'll try to be creating a new relationship with an editor or publication and spend a lot of time like kind of coming up with the perfect pitches and the perfect email and just never hear anything and you know. [00:28:00] Just dead silence. And that, that's a tough one.

'cause you did put so much time in it, like a, a simple, like, no thank you. It's not for us, or like, whatever would be great. But it's just kind of the way that it works just because of the lack of time and the lack of, there's just not enough time in the day for most editors, not all. Um, and then the other thing is uncertainty in the sense that, you know, the media landscape shifts so much so frequently in terms of.

Things closing a few things, opening, people moving, downsizing, different initiatives or directives on an editorial side, it can be hard to keep up with that. But you know, I think the other thing that, you know, really drives it along with relationships, and I'm sure you found this too, is, is reputation.

Everybody, it's a relatively small world, uh, whether you're talking about. Cooking or writing food media in general. You know, it seems pretty big to start, but it's pretty small in the end of [00:29:00] the day. And you know what you've done and what you do and how you speak and how you conduct yourself gets noticed and gets commented on.

And being a good citizen and of that world and being good at what you do is really important because. People can say no, people can not pick up the phone or not answer an email, or not choose to be a part of something if they don't want to. If they don't feel like they or their work is gonna be represented properly, or they just don't think it's gonna be good, or they just don't like you for whatever reason.

So, I mean, I put relationships and reputation at the top of the list of the things that like I strive to, you know, maintain high quality at all times. And that, and don't ever give yourself a break on, on those fronts. 

Chris Spear: What do you think is the single, if there, if you had to boil it down to the single biggest either challenge or skill, like if someone really has time to put into this as a career, like is there a skill they [00:30:00] should be sharpening?

Is it, is it the pitching or like just making this, making the likelihood of them being successful in this industry. Like what, where do they start? 

Nevin Martell: They have to have an endless well of drive and determination, first and foremost. Um, but as a freelancer, you really live or die based on the creativity, quality, consistency, and quantity of the ideas you produce if you cannot consistently produce.

Interesting. Quality story ideas and then execute on that. Like, it doesn't matter how good of a writer you are, you just, there's just not gonna be enough there, there for you to exist in this kind of a space. Um, you know, and as you go on, I've gone through periods of time when I've gotten burned out and my, you know, I certainly knew my writing was suffering even if like my [00:31:00] editors or the readers didn't.

You have to figure out ways to like, kind of like be able to maintain that pace. 'cause it's, it's nonstop, you know, the machine always needs, there's new grist for the mill, always required. So you really have to like, kind of go back to that drive and determination. And you also have to give yourself a break in the sense that like, you have to get smart about it in the sense that like, if you have a good idea, never let it go.

Like, it's taken me years sometimes to sell a good idea, but then I'll finally find a home for it. And like all the time that I spent writing, like having the experience and doing the thing and doing the research and writing the pitch, sure, I may have to rewrite the pitch to make it right for the editor I finally sell it to, but like it'll be gratifying to know that I finally found a home for what I knew was a good idea all along.

And also the idea that like, you know, you can take an idea and you can sell it first to a local publication and then sell a different version of it to a national publication. You can write the same story several times over the course of your career, maybe more than [00:32:00] several times. Like there will always be a, a space in the world for where to eat Alfresco this spring and boozy hot chocolates this holiday season.

Now those are not stories that I like writing at this point in my career. Yeah, but they pay the bills sometimes, right? But they can pay the bills. Yeah. And you know, there's all those are service stories that are valuable for readers. You know, and they, and editors love writers that have institutional knowledge that can produce those kinds of things and make quality recommendations to their readers.

So that is, um, a value that you bring to the equation, and then you have to figure out ways to push yourself to make that work exciting to you, even though you've done it before. 

Chris Spear: And like cooking and especially like personal chefing like I do, there's also a very big difference between doing this full time and like, you need to make this money versus like side hustling.

Like me, I don't get paid as a writer, but it might be fun for me to write. And if I sell one story a year or one a quarter, one a month, cool, that's extra money. But like when you've quit your [00:33:00] job and your family finances, uh, rely on you earning that, that's a very different scenario. I imagine your writing could maybe change because you're maybe doing more of those.

Boozy hot chocolate articles that don't, um, sustain your soul, but they pay the bills. I've, I have a friend who says he does pretty well on like Fiverr and Upwork and those kind of things, like writing for blogs. You know, he says it's not the most exciting stuff, but like, someone needs like a, you know, thousand word article for their website and like, he doesn't, his name isn't attached to it.

It's not like. Anything that he is gonna win a Pulitzer for, but it's like it, it pays the bills because he just had to bang out this article on the best cookware for the holiday season or something like that, you know? 

Nevin Martell: Yeah, no, I 

Chris Spear: mean, you really 

Nevin Martell: have to define balance in between the work that you love and the work that pays well, and you know, hopefully the more you go on in your career.

[00:34:00] Those two lines will come together and most of the work you love will be well paying. And, uh, but that's not always the case. And like, I also like to mix it up, you know, I mean, I teach classes, I work as a writing coach. I co-produce new kitchens on the block with Al. Um, you know, I try to do other things that not only keep me excited intellectually, but you know, keep me engaged in my work in different ways, interacting with a lot of the same people.

The same communities, but just in different ways. Um, and they, and they do offer, you know, alternate income streams, so there's like extra legs on the chair, so to speak. So it's not just writing, but yeah. And that kind of goes back to my comment before about burnout. It's like, you know, you gotta create ways to make sure that you're staying fresh, you're staying curious, you're staying excited.

Because when you're all those things, the writing is easier and the writing is better. And that means it's gonna be better for the reader. And, um. Hopefully, you know better for your editors and, um, at the end of the day, [00:35:00] everyone's happier 

Chris Spear: and I like being happy. We all do. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I see food and travel definitely related, definitely culture in there.

You've done some writing on parenting. What was that like for you? Because that's a little different shift and I guess one of the things is, is that harder because you're writing from a. More personal standpoint. I like, it's, to me, it would be vulnerable. Like I could sit, talk to you all day about food and cooking and culture, but then if I wanted to talk about, you know, the challenges of my son and his A DHD, you know, like that's a very personal, and then thinking about like, how much do I want to talk about my family life and, and that, yeah.

So what was that like for you? 

Nevin Martell: You know, I had never considered doing any kind of parenting writing, but an agent I was working with at the time said, look, you know, the, this was like, uh, my son was born in 2013, and the agent was like, look, there's a lot of quote unquote mommy bloggers out there, but there's not a lot of quote unquote daddy bloggers.

And so [00:36:00] I think that you could carve out a bit of a niche for yourself. As a father talking openly about parenting and, um, our son is, is biracial and, you know, I'm married to a black woman from Ghana and he was like, this is like also something that's becoming more and more prevalent but not really discussed a lot, especially in parenting circles.

And so you might have, uh, you know, an interesting perspective or interesting, um, insights for people that are. They're trying to understand those experiences better or are looking for, uh, solidarity or insights because they're going through it themselves as well. And the first thing I would say for anybody who wants to do any kind of parenting, writing, or memoir or personal writing in general, is like you have to have the buy-in from your partner.

'cause if. If your wife, husband's spouse is not game, uh, it's just gonna go terribly wrong from the get go. Um, and so, you know, I was gratified that my wife was comfortable about me talking about being a father and, and raising our son. And, you know, [00:37:00] to be honest, it, it was hard at times, but it also gave me the space which I might not have had otherwise to sit down and really think about, uh, you know, kind of, um.

Think about what my approaches to parenting were and kind of like codifying them in a way that like, I could write about them in a, in a thorough manner. You know, it really like, as you know, like when you're starting out as a parent, like you have less time than you've ever had before, less sleep than you've ever had before, life is just like totally slipped on said, and you're totally kind of refocusing and, and, and rethinking a lot of what you do.

But you what? The thing that you don't really have is like time to just really sit down and process all of it. But by having these assignments and like coming up with these ideas for stories or personal essays, I was like demanding that I sit down and really think about how I felt about. Or how I really wanted to approach things as a parent and then, [00:38:00] you know, write about my experiences or write about my advice, um, on a particular topic.

So for me, I took it as like a real, ultimately as a real luxury that I was able to have that time to, to talk about it. And, um, and, but more importantly, to think about it for myself and to think about it for my family, I. Parenting writing made me a better dad because I really, uh, had to think about it.

And, you know, I, I knew I wanted to be thoughtful as a father, but knowing you wanna be thoughtful and, and making the space to think about how you wanna be thoughtful and then executing that, um, can be very hard. You know, when, when you're coming up as a parent. And, um, so I, I saw the trade off the quote, like the, the vulnerability of it was like, it actually, um.

That didn't frighten me that much. And also I knew that like it, if I could talk about it because I didn't see a lot of other men talking about it, especially parenthood and some of the issues that I was talking about, [00:39:00] um, I knew that if I was open enough to talk about it, it could hopefully help other people be more open to talk about it.

And, you know, I had some really, uh, just really open conversations with people over the years about parenting about. Being, say, a white father of a biracial child that I never would've had if I didn't have like, that kind of writing out in the world. Um, and, you know, which also then spurred like further conversations within me and further like, uh, you know, introspection about the dad that I wanted to be and the dad that I was.

So, you know, I, I actually thought of that I, that to this day remains like the writing that I got the most email about or the most feedback about. Um, and so I'm really glad that I did it. But as my son got older, you know, it's harder to write about a son that can go to a website and look at what you've written.

And my last big piece was like right [00:40:00] before the pandemic, uh, I wrote a piece on learning how to style my son's hair, which was like, as a white guy who has just like hair, you don't the same hair you, the two of you do not have the same hair. I know. So it was like a real challenge and um, but I was glad that I learned how to do it.

Of the piece, but, um, because it brought my son and I closer and, but that was like the last real piece that I kind of wrote as a parenting essayist. And, um, you know, I'm really, I'm really proud of that one and, you know, have had a lot of interesting conversations because of it. Uh. 

Chris Spear: And people may not even be comfortable telling you how that affected them, but just knowing that that's the kind of writing that connects, because I wrote about, um, being fired one time.

Mm-hmm. And I had a lot of shame with that. And it was something that I published and then unpublished really quickly and then did again. Um, and I, at this point, it was like, Jesus, I think probably 10 years ago when I was on my website and I literally. Talk to someone this summer who I've known for like 15 [00:41:00] years, and she finally said to me, you know, when you, you publish that, you shared it on your Facebook?

And she said, like, that connected with me because I had gone through that and I was carrying this thing that I, you know, in my mind only I could relate to. But it was just interesting that I've known her for like 15 years and like she felt deeply about this thing I wrote, but never even told me about it, you know?

And it was that thing that I was. Probably the most scared to probably publish. And you know, I've heard the, the saying like, if that, if that thing, if you're scared of publishing it, that's the thing you should publish the most, right? Because that's, that's the good stuff in there, but it's really hard to do that.

So just knowing that I sometimes veer. Off of the, you know, here's a new recipe for pimento cheese or whatever, but really dig, which we need more of. We need more of let's, I have a hundred versions of that. I do one with GI de I do one with kimchi. The gi de one's my favorite one now that, because most sounds amazing.

Like a good one has roasted pepper in it. Yeah. So just, you know, and maybe beef it up with a little more [00:42:00] extra red pepper in there, but then you, you know, it's kind of weird to put cauliflower and pimento cheese, but it um, it does its thing. Yeah. That, that's of my special, you're making me angry. That's one of my specialties right now.

So it's on my me, it's on my menu. Um, yeah, and pretty good feedback. Still serve it with Ritz crackers though, because that's, uh, that's a traditional, well, you and I are in the DC area, and not to dig ourselves in the weeds just on the, on the surface or however deep you wanna get, take breath. What does that, what does that mean for you and people writing?

Like you've obviously been through a number of administrations. Does that change. Content of your writing, the style of your writing, where you publish, like what does that mean for people who are writers? 

Nevin Martell: I mean, for me it means trying to maintain my sanity and mental wellbeing by not getting sucked into the news and not getting sucked into the, the dread and the despair and the darkness, uh, because that affects my [00:43:00] productivity and that affects my, the quality of my work.

I did find that during the first Trump administration, like I was very distracted. It was hard to focus. Um, it took a lot away from the amount of work I was able to produce and the quality of the work that I did produce at times. Uh, so I don't wanna make that mistake again. So I'm like limiting the amount of news that I consume now, um, which has been good, but it's, it's hard to, I don't wanna completely avoid it.

Um, I wouldn't say that it changes where I write. I did write some pieces during the first administration that, you know, were reflective of what was happening because of what the administration was doing. And you know, I assume that that will be the case this time around. There will probably be some pieces that I do that comment on it, you know, directly and others that are kind of indirect.

And the administration and the actions they take will invariably influence. Restaurants and the hospitality world, you know, [00:44:00] whether that's, you know, the moves that they're making in terms of immigration or, you know, there's been talk about, uh, you know, eliminating taxes on tips. Mm-hmm. And there's tariffs and food costs going up, and food costs going up.

And, you know, the rent, the rent is too damn high. And, you know, there's a lot of things that are gonna happen that are gonna have profound effects on the restaurant industry, specifically in this region. So, I mean, there'll be a lot of stories to tell around that sometimes, you know, I am not the best position person to tell that, you know, I write like more lifestyle coverage.

I do cover, you know, kind of the ins and outs of the industry sometimes. But, um, those kinds of pieces can take a long time. It's nice to be on a masthead when you write a piece, some of those pieces because like you have the full backing. Of the publication, whereas a freelancer, you know, no matter how long you've written for a publication, like you're still on your own at the end of the day, you know?

Um, and so, you know, you don't wanna necessarily try to sell [00:45:00] stories that could land you in any kind of legal hot water or backlash that could like affect your ability to sell stories elsewhere. Um, so it's definitely something to think about. 

Chris Spear: Which is an interesting place for journalism as a whole, as you're seeing people shy away from maybe saying the thing that needs to be said.

Yeah. You know, and I think it's a, a potentially interesting time for. You know, not like necessarily independent journalism, but you know, like I've got a podcast, I'm not really beholden to anyone and not even really a platform per se. And it's like you, I can say the thing. I mean obviously there's, it could be suppressed on Facebook when I share or something like that, but just, um, potentially seeing different and new, uh, avenues to get your word out there, I think.

And we'll see. Well, we could go on and on, but I feel like we need to put a bow on this. What do you want to leave our listener with? Any advice or any? Anything? 

Nevin Martell: Yeah. Advice, you know, keep shining. [00:46:00] Everybody right now just needs to stay bright, stay focused, do what they do best, and um, if they feel like they can be socially engaged, you know, like on a.

In terms of social justice causes, please do be, but take time for yourself. Like, you know, I'm, we didn't really talk about it, but you know, I'm really into foraging and like the best part about foraging is that you're going out into the woods or a park and just spending some time in nature decompressing.

And, you know, I found that incredibly rejuvenating and, uh, enlightening during the pandemic. And so, you know, I plan on doing a lot of foraging over the next four years. At the end of the day, even if you don't come home with what you planned on getting in the first place, you've gotten some fresh air, you've gotten some exercise, you've gotten some time away from a screen, you've gotten a chance just to be a little bit quieter.

So that's something I always look forward to, you know, that's something we'll always, uh, brighten my day [00:47:00] no matter what else is going on, either in terms of work or the world. If you need me. I'll be out in the forest, 

Chris Spear: and you have some great articles on that. I will share some of those story links on your website.

There's like 4,000 articles you've written and you've linked to all of them. I have to say, I did not make it through every single one of those articles, but there's some really good reading in there. 

Nevin Martell: Thank you. And there's also, if you go, it's on just my Instagram account now at Nevin Martel. There is a trailer for a documentary I'm working on, which has the tentative title of Simply Forage.

And it's, uh. It's a, it's a documentary about people whose lives were unexpectedly transformed by the power of foraging. And for people who live in DCU may recognize Rob Aruba of Oyster Oyster, uh, he kind of really had his epiphany around sustainability, in part because of his, uh, love of foraging. And there's another guy, Julian Fortu, who, uh.

He's a professional forger and you know, forage was for like the Dabney and Jaunt and, um, [00:48:00] Johnny Spiro and people like that. And, uh, he's in there. And then there's some other people outside of bc but it's a project I'm really excited about and I'm hoping we'll finally, uh. Be shown to the world maybe hopefully next year.

Fingers and toes crossed. Well 

Chris Spear: keep me updated on that. And like I said, people listen to these episodes that have been out years ago and I'm always updating that stuff. So if you do something cool, I go in, I could just drop that in there and people will find it. Awesome. Yeah, I'll keep sharing your stuff.

Cool. Thanks for coming on the show. I'm so glad we could finally do this and, and catch up and maybe have you come back and talk about totally different stuff sometime. 

Nevin Martell: No, this has been awesome. I was honestly so touched and so honored that you asked me to be here today. Um, just so enjoyed our conversation.

Chris Spear: Well, to all of our listeners, this has been Chris with Chefs Without Restaurants. Thanks so much for listening and have a great week. You're still here. The podcast's over if you are indeed still here. Thanks for taking the time to listen to the show. I'd love to direct you to one place, and that's chefs without restaurants.org.

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You might even get a discount for using some of these links. As always, you can reach out to me on Instagram at Chefs Without Restaurants, or send me an email at Chefs Without restaurants@gmail.com. Thanks so much.