Thank You Heartbreak with Chelsea Leigh Trescott

265: Radical Forgiveness, Real Happiness with Dr. Dravon James

• Chelsea Leigh Trescott • Episode 265

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Heartbreak can turn even the strongest among us into tireless editors of the past. We replay scenes, bargain with “what if,” and try to outrun regret. This conversation changes that script. With transformation specialist Dr. Dravon James, we explore forgiveness not as a soft ideal but as a rigorous, practical pathway to real happiness. Acceptance—“it is what it is”—stops sounding like surrender and starts feeling like authorship. As Dravon says, you can’t change a yellow wall to blue without first naming yellow.

We dive into a blank-canvas practice that’s equal parts tender and disarming: release old labels, whisper “I am nothing,” and notice what appears. From that openness, the questions sharpen: Which version of me is complete? What wants to be created now? Along the way, we trade perfection for progress and explore how safety in relationships grows when we allow the power of “no.” Boundaries become bridges when consent enters hard conversations and curiosity replaces assumption. That’s where real repair begins.

Dravon’s insights on self-trust come alive here: before self-love, rebuild faith in your own choices by noticing how often you’ve already shown up for yourself. When we tune into that inner station, synchronicity feels less like luck and more like alignment. Sometimes the truth within says a long relationship has run its course. Hearing it is hard. Ignoring it is harder.

If you’re ready to stop punishing yourself, to let “no” deepen intimacy rather than threaten it, and to turn heartbreak into wisdom you can actually use, this episode is for you. Listen, share it with someone who needs a softer way forward, and leave a review so more people can find their path to everyday peace. Then tell us: what label are you ready to set down today?

Connect with Dr. Dravon James:

Website: https://drdravonjames.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdravonjames

Facebook:  www.facebook.com/everydaypeacewithdrdravonjames

Book: Forgiveness: The Pathway to Happiness

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Email: chelsea@breakupward.com

Instagram: https://instagram.com/thankyouheartbreak

Advice Column: https://www.huffpost.com

Writing: https://thoughtcatalog.com/chelsea-leigh-trescott

Speaker:

This is Thank You Heartbreak.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Hi everyone, I'm Chelsea Leigh Trescott.

Speaker:

As a breakup coach, a relationship advice columnist and the founder of Breakupward, Chelsea is passionate about human beings and their stories.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

This pod kind of shines a light on Heartbreak, showing you that the most crushing experiences are also your greatest opportunity to become meaningful, relatable human beings. Now, let's get to the heart of it. To skip this intro and go right into the episode, to go to somewhere around the six-minute and 40-second mark. Otherwise, stay with me. Today we're stepping into a conversation about something we all need, yet so often struggle to practice forgiveness. And not only forgiveness for others, but especially forgiveness for ourselves and how it can lead us not just to healing, but to true happiness. Now, episode 263 was an episode on happiness. And that really got into my head and into my heart because for so long I knew that I was able to access joy, but I could not say I was happy. And so after that episode, I really disappeared and went on this journey, painful, painful, but totally liberating journey toward happiness. And what it absolutely 1000% required, that I didn't know how to give myself for so long, was self-forgiveness. So it is a delight to be introducing you all and to be with my guest, Dr. Dravon James, a transformation specialist and the founder and director of Everyday Peace. She's the author of the book that we're diving into today, Forgiveness, The Pathway to Happiness, as well as Freedom is your birthright. Now, I love that question. I love asking people, what does freedom mean to you? So read that book of hers as well.

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Dr.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Dravon is also the host of Dr. Dravon James' Everyday Peace on MindBody Spirit. A coach on the Sirius XM Road Dog Trucking Show, and an actress whose credits include a recurring role on HBO's The Wire. This episode is about breaking open space within you, about stepping past the pain, the old identities, the roles you've been carrying, and finally allowing, allowing yourself to feel everything, even and especially the heaviness of heartbreak without losing yourself in it. And because this is a breakupward podcast, we're not just talking theory, we're taking action. So I want to invite you into a breakupward coaching exercise inspired by one of the most powerful moments in our conversation, the realization of I am nothing. So here's how it works find your space somewhere quiet where you can breathe and be present. Close your eyes, inhale deeply, exhale slowly, and release all attachments to past labels, mistakes, and expectations. At least try. Try to have that intention right now. Release all attachments to past labels, mistakes, and expectations. Whisper to yourself, I am nothing. Notice what arises thoughts, tension, resistance, and allow it all, without judgment, without story? Now shift your perspective. Imagine that nothing as a blank canvas, completely free of what no longer serves you. Ask yourself, if I am nothing, what is possible to create from this emptiness, from this openness? Reflect, maybe just in this quiet moment right now, or in a journal on these questions? Which old versions of myself no longer serve me? What am I ready to let go of so I can step fully into my higher self? If nothing from my past holds guard over me, what is the next version of me waiting to be born? Seal the exercise with a deep breath and say, I am nothing and therefore I am free to become everything. If you want to take it just a tiny step further, you can commit one small action today that honors this new blank canvas approach, this new blank canvas version of yourself. Think of it as a way to show up differently, more aligned, more authentic with the version that you're freeing yourself to become. If you're ready to release, forgive, and step into your next higher self, join us because this episode is about nothing less than radical transformation that puts us on the pathway to happiness. Now, did you just say that you came back from church? Is that what I heard?

Dr. Dravon James:

Yes. Rushed in from church and you were my second interview.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Oh, look at you. Wanted woman. Wanted woman. Well, you know what? I'm gonna bring up then this moment within your book, you know, Forgiveness, a pathway to happiness, which thank you so much for sending it my way and putting this on my own path to happiness. There is a moment in your of course. There's a moment in your book that really stood out to me when you talk about being at church and hearing the pastor remarking on how this younger generation talks about it is what it is and how it didn't sit well with him. And I remember when I was maybe 19 or 20, a guy that I was dating, that was his mantra in life. It is what it is, and it was so hard for me to accept that that's where his mind went to and how he so embraced that, and I was so resistant to that for so long. And I think I've changed. But hearing that, it was interesting to me is that this man didn't like that, and yet it became a stepping stone for you to release so much of the resistance you were having to the reality around your divorce. So I'm curious about that moment. I'm curious about it is what it is and what it means for you.

Dr. Dravon James:

Oh my gosh. You're so right. When I heard that for the first time, I'm sitting in church, and the phrase didn't necessarily mean anything to me at the time, sitting there with my family, my husband, my two children. And he talked about this lackadaisical nature of the youth. It is what it is. Seeming that, you know, taking no effort at all and not trying to be as I had been brought up, you are the master of your destiny, right? So it was totally different. And that's how he felt was just taking a very casual responsibility of how your life goes. What I had come to learn in my study of forgiveness and in my own pathway, there is a point, and it does not mean that you have given up, but you have to accept. Early on in my teaching about peace, I used to tell my clients that if you want to change the color of your walls and your house from yellow to blue, you must first accept that the walls are yellow. And then you can paint them blue, right? And with my forgiveness journey, you know, there is a lot that I have to accept. The word no, I talk about that in the book too. You know, the simplest definition uh for forgiveness is being able to accept the word no. You wanted loyalty, the answer was no. Being able to accept that it is what it is. This individual, even if it hurts me, has made a decision contrary to my request. Once I accept that it is what it is, I move from this place of trying to control everything, which at some point in your life I think we all get to the point realizing that really we don't have that much control over anything outside of ourselves, and we're not doing the greatest job with controlling ourselves. So to be able to accept from an external world, especially when it comes to forgiveness, that it is what it is, allows me to move on on my pathway to healing. You know, as I wrote the book, I thought about that, you know, two different perspectives on the on that phrase, and I feel that phrase is so freeing that I have no responsibility to change another person's viewpoints or even their behavior. I must change me, you know, so that I put myself in the best possible situation. Sometimes forgiveness, always forgiveness is the answer. But sometimes a big part of forgiveness is being able to first accept the behavior that you did not want, that you had no choice into accept this has happened and remove that whole thing that we do with denial. And for a lot of my clients, myself included, a big part of my forgiveness journey early on was spent on what if I had just said this or what if I had just done that, or what if I what if what you know, it just going through and just punishing myself over and over and over again. It is what it is, relieved me of that.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Relieved you of the self-inflicted punishment?

Dr. Dravon James:

Yeah, relentless, right? Because most of the punishment, I mean, the external punishment, you know, at this point now I can say, sweetie, they've done a good enough job punishing you. Don't you continue long after they've forgotten that I even exist? I'm still in my head replaying every second to see if I had just done this a little bit differently, I could have had a better outcome. And and and that may be true. There's nothing wrong with learning for the future, but I certainly can't go back and change that particular instance, but to forgive it.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Mm-hmm. In a different way, I think about that in terms of whether I'll have children. I've always wanted children, but even with that desire my whole life, I haven't put myself on this relentless path of getting it. And now here I am at 38, and it could not happen, right? And it's like I have an option of replaying my past and living in regret and resentment, or I can accept what's now and prepare myself to accept whatever comes in the future. And that was like a really interesting shift for me because I think so much of my own life has been about, I've realized, self-hatred and punishing myself, you know? And it's like I can imagine with these bigger defining moments of children, and especially as you know, in relationships, how we punish ourselves for the path that we didn't take or the path we chose to take, or what, like you said, what we said to someone and the path that led us on. So it is really remarkable. Of course, I'm not there yet where I'm really going to find out if I have kids or not, but I at least have the awareness, and I think that we can all come into this awareness of we've seen what in other ways not accepting what is has done to us. And so preparing ourselves going forward because we don't know what will come, but we can know that learning to embrace what is in front of us and what's happening is the gentler way.

Dr. Dravon James:

Oh my goodness, you have said so much in this in that sentence, right? To be gentle and to be kind with ourselves, right? And there is this part of us that is forever wishing that we could go back and change the past. And to my knowledge, as of today, no one has invented a way for us to do that, right? We do have to learn to accept the past, not necessarily be defined by it, but use it as a learning tool, right? And then be able to move gently from that to the present moment. And I I do go back to that phrase, it is what it is. And there's so many things, even as you were talking, you know, my the floodgates of my memory open up and say, make me think of a thousand and one things. If I had just, you know, pause for a minute or, you know, just remembered this truth about life for a minute, then maybe I wouldn't have. And maybe this wouldn't have happened and that wouldn't have happened. And that's not possible. That moment is gone. It is just self-inflicted punishment to keep going back. You know, I think it's important to not only forgive others, but to really have a strong self-forgiveness process where you forgive yourself for the things that you've done, forgive yourself for the things that you haven't done, that you wish you had done, and forgive yourself for this totally punishing yourself through rumination over and over again. Once you start to really do that, it is amazing how you just start to feel lighter and move differently on the earth.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Move differently on the earth. Love that. Something that comes to me as you're speaking is on the path to happiness, or for so many people, the destination is happiness, right? Like they think they'll finally arrive at happiness. And let me ask you, because I think that this maybe is one of the myths, is that when we are happy, we will stop ever reevaluating things. Like it'll be this moment where there's no, I should have done things differently. Like we're gonna arrive into this reality that we never go there again because we just so hugely love what is now. Is that happiness?

Dr. Dravon James:

Oh my goodness. So this is so interesting because I just had this conversation before this definition of happiness. And when I use happiness, it could be replaced with the word joy. I just really like the way the word happy makes me feel in my gut, right? But happiness, a lot of times we associate with what is happening. But what you just described is joy, right? It is that to be able to accept what has happened, right? And then to somewhere not excuse behavior that does need to be corrected, because you can correct behavior, but also know that there is an overarching power, whatever you want to call this universe, that allows these things to happen for our good, no matter how crazy that sounds. I know when my mother used to say that God rests her soul, sometimes it would make me so angry. I'm like, this is so painful. How could this be for my better good? But then you think about life, right? Lessons are learned in the struggle. We're all celebrating. We're not learning, we're celebrating what we come through. So it is this cyclical nature of life, right? We'll do things, we'll realize, well, huh, that wasn't quite the results that I want to have, or that wasn't really the way, which really here's the big thing. That wasn't the way I want to make anybody else feel. And once we get there, we realize, okay, apologize, forgive, learn, move forward. No regret, no, none of this. Oh, I'm a horrible person. Of course you're not. Thank goodness none of us are perfect. Thank goodness we don't have to live in a world where there's 95% of the people imperfect and 5% perfect. My goodness, that'd be horrible.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Interesting that you say this. I recently met someone and well, it came up because I learned that he was a Virgo, and he's like, What do you know about Virgos? I'm like, Well, perfectionism. And he's really come back to that, you know, just the cage around perfectionism. And I think often perfection, especially within dating, can keep us from letting someone in because we don't think we've arrived yet. We're not ready, we don't want to be seen yet, we're gonna be found out, we're gonna be discovered. Could you talk to me? Yeah, because you you brought that up and said, thank gosh, we don't have to be perfect. And I'm curious about the intimacy around being discovered for not being perfect and why that might be part of the liberation.

Dr. Dravon James:

Yeah, and if you just think about it in the reverse, wouldn't it be great if someone loved us and they saw us in our nakedness and truth and all of our flaws, and they said, I still choose you. You talked about being a mom, and that's one of the things that mothers do over and over again. You have these children, and you know, and the whole world is telling them, Oh, you should be skinnier, you should be more stylish, you should be cooler, you should be and they come home to, I love you just the way you are. I love you with the F when you're report card, I love you with the A's. I love you with the, you know, good disciplinary skills at school, and I love you when you're sent home for bad behavior. I just love you. Doesn't mean there aren't consequences. And I think that's what we're all looking for. And I think people who are, I have clients who have that, you know, perfectionalism, which sort of stunts your growth because you can't move forward because it isn't really perfect. Now we say, let's replace that P with progress, right? Because we're all on a progressive road somewhere, right? And so when we sit there and we pick out the flaws in other people, right? You know, understand that I can, one thing I can do perfectly if I'm stuck in that perfection, is to perfectly administer grace and mercy to everyone, everyone for everything, right? And then you realize, oh my gosh, this is exhausting. Well, then we just get away from perfection altogether. We just ask, Well, can I progress in whatever I'm doing? If I'm progressing, I'm gonna naturally attract people in my life who are progressive and are progressing maybe in different ways, race the spontaneity in life and the differences in ourselves. And that's how we make this delicious gumbo of life, right? We say, Hey, you may be good in this area, not perfect, and I may be good in this area, not perfect. And together we're progressing towards something. And I think that is really what happens in a healthy relationship is knowing that no matter what, you're safe here. You and all your imperfections, and me with all my imperfections. We're safe, we're progressing.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

So beautiful, bringing me to tears, reminding me why I love being in conversation like this. I love how much you just moved me there. You truly did. Oh, you're welcome. I'm curious about how you have created safety within your relationship, within your family, within yourself, within your love. Yeah. How how did you accomplish that?

Dr. Dravon James:

Trial and error, many mistakes, if I were to be totally honest. You know, even I have been on this journey. I tell people that some. Something clicked inside of me when I was 17 after reading Norman Vincent Peel's The Power of Positive Thinking. And I wish it was had been like a straight arrow to there, right? But it's a lot of trial and error back and forth, a lot of, you know, I won't say regret, but a lot of learning on my behalf. But the thing that for me and my personality, and everybody's different, for me and my personality, where I struggled was wanting to create, here we go with perfection, a utopia based on my definition of utopia, wanting to create correct living based on my definition of correct living. And I dare say it was maybe oppressive to other people who were being loved by me because I said, no, no, no, don't do it that way, do it this way. I already know because I already made that mistake. But don't we all have to make our own mistakes and have to go down that road? And so that was one of the journeys that I had to go on. And now I constantly, we're talking about relationship to the point where my kids laugh at me. They're 25 and 22. But I will preface a lot of my conversation by saying, now stop me if I cross any boundaries.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Wow.

Dr. Dravon James:

I want to give you my heart on this, but I am totally, I want you to stop me if I cross boundaries or if I ask questions that you're not ready to answer.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Wow.

Dr. Dravon James:

And I want you to do that to help me police myself because I want you to feel comfortable with me. And I want you to feel not judged. Even, you know, and I'm not perfect. There's a part of every relationship where you're saying to yourself, ooh, ooh, please don't do that. But yeah, I think as long as I start off my conversations and my I think the two people on this earth that are closest to my heart, and those are people you tend to hurt the most, I think, because you sort of take that relationship for granted, or that you'll be understood. Or my son and my daughter, that's why I purposely start my conversations off by saying if I have something serious to talk about, my son and I hung out at a festival yesterday and it was delightful, but I was mindful in that space, right? To say if you brought up something and say, hey, well, you know what? If this is going too far, if this is encroaching on your privacy, please stop me. And go, mom, you're fine. But I get more leeway, and you know, the conversation is open when they know that I'm open to being stopped at any point in time. So I think that's important in a relationship is to let the other person know I may not know where the boundary is for you, right? I'm learning, even though we could be in a relationship. My son and I've been in a relationship for 22 years, right? He's 22. But you're evolving as an individual, right? And I want to respect that because this relationship is important enough for me to ask this very it sounds like a simple question, but it is a very important question. So I try to do that. I haven't really moved that way with other relationships, but in romantic relationships, I do that too. I always ask questions first. I am very curious. I have learned that to be the remedy to a lot of ills in life, is to become very, very curious. So I'm very curious, even in romantic relationships, what is it about this conversation that could possibly make you uncomfortable about my stance on something? And so I'll just ask the question like, is this a good time for this conversation? You know, how does it make you feel when I say that, you know, my intentions are, but this is my truth?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Wow. Oh, I love that. I love that. And it's making me feel like from reading your book and how you talk about forgiveness is making peace with the word no. It seems like just there, even the way that you approach conversations and that you open yourself up from the beginning, you're saying, you can tell me no, if this is pushing too much, you can stop me, which is actually you saying, you can say no to me. And I think for a lot of people, they get so riled up within relationships if someone says, I'm not ready, or no, I don't want to talk about that, because it feels rejecting. It feels personal. It seems like a wall. So, how do you see it more rather than a wall that someone's walling you off? You see that it's a pause or it could still become a bridge later.

Dr. Dravon James:

You're so right about that. We're braced for the no, right? And even the person who has to say no, they feel like they have to almost say it in a way that is abrasive. So I find like by opening up in the beginning and saying, I'm prepared to say no, this is a safe environment for you to say no, because this relationship is important enough for me to accept the no and not have it be the conclusion of, you know, the end of the relationship. It could be the end of this discussion for sure. Then maybe we'll circle back to it in a different way. But I do want to create a soft and safe space for us to be in our truth, right? It doesn't mean that the whatever the conflict is, it's going to go away. It just means it needs to be addressed differently and maybe not at all at this particular time. So I find that me being open to that, someone's got to take the lead. When I was a little girl, my mother used to say, when you started new school, she would say, you know, you be the first person to say hello. Don't wait. Yeah. If you wait forever for the other girls to speak to you, they never will. You're the new girl. You go in there and you start off by talking. So I feel that way in a relationship too. I'll be the first person to create a safe and soft environment for you to come in with your truth, for you to know that I'm open to that. And then I will allow you to reciprocate that environment for me. Right. And it also gives me space too, because I've created this space of no to give you a no if it's necessary.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

So beautiful. So wonderful. It's but it just is the most massive thing. It has changed my life becoming someone that introduces myself first, that doesn't wait on other people to approach me. I just realized it was never gonna happen, right? Also, what I love here, and for all those that are listening, women especially, I think so often women have waited for men to give them a green light. A green light to love, a green light to lean in, a green light to express a mo, to take it seriously, whatever it is. And yet I think that cuts us off from such a force within us, our own form of self-expression by waiting on others. So I think it's so amazing that you have led with that demonstration of love, and that you have created the opening and you have set the standard and you have gone first.

Dr. Dravon James:

And I love the fact that you bring up the male-female relationship because a lot the playing small, and I always tell my clients, you are the protagonist in your own tale, right? And you really set the stage. I would by no means describe myself as the most assertive person in a relationship, you know, of an era where femininity was quiet and you know, and all of that. However, in order to get what you want to eat, you can't walk into a restaurant and smile, and people go, Oh, she's got a shellfish allergy. You've got to speak up and you've got to use your voice. You have to be able to demonstrate with your words and your actions, this is how I like love to feel, to sound, to act. And you, it's totally okay if that's not the way you like to give it. There's a countless number of people out here, but I'll keep getting what I don't want.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Yes.

Dr. Dravon James:

If I cannot verbalize to you what I do want. This type of behavior is harmful, it's hurtful and harmful to me. It makes me feel small and insecure. And I'm sure you don't want your love to make me feel that way, but that's what it's doing to me. And being able to have that conversation in love and giving your partner an opportunity to say, wow, I didn't realize that. You know, I grew up in a household where that was the norm, and you never know. I didn't know that that was part of a thing that made you feel insecure. You give that person an opportunity, you know. And again, with me, I always like to say, hey, this conversation becomes too harsh for you. Because what I have found a lot of times is, you know, when you're talking about romantic communication, a lot of times the other partner, you've got to give them some time to even warm up to being vulnerable, which is interesting because you think here we are in this intimate relationship, but they're not ready to say, these are my really close-held fears. And so that's again where that soft landing and secure and safe place is. You know, I'm gonna have a huge amount of respect for you, no matter where we land on this, you know, even if it ends in us not being together, in my heart, you'll always be the one that got away, you know.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Oh my gosh, yes. When you've gotten a know before, are you in a place now where you're able to process that on your own? Or is there someone that you like to call? How do you check in with yourself so you can? I I guess what I'm looking for, is there guidance that has worked for you or that you could provide so people don't spiral because of this no and take it into a zone of unforgiveness or resentment, but to go, hey, this is actually a win in some way.

Dr. Dravon James:

Sometimes you're too close to the forest to see the trees, right? And I am a big, firm believer in having a support network. And for me, that probably may look a little bit different than other people. I need an environment where I can discuss things that not necessarily with family or friends, okay, because maybe they're too intimately connected to the situation. They know both parties and maybe they have a preference. And really, I'm looking for an impartial ear. So I'm a firm believer in having a therapist, having a coach, you know, being in some type of support network where you, even a clergy member, where you can have an unbiased opinion, you know, if they know all the parties in place, because I think we're all emotional beings. And I've been studying, most people have been trying to study and get better. But when you really get triggered, when something does really happen, even doing the techniques, you can be a little clouded in your impression of things and maybe too emotionally attached. So I like to have somebody to say, hey, here's what I'm working on. This is what I found. And I believe in continuously doing the work, which is why I made a workbook to go with the book, so people can go and ask those questions and do those things. But I do firmly believe that you do need a place where you can go to and talk. And that person needs to be healthy. Can you imagine you doing all this great work to be in a healthy position, but the person that you're getting, your reliability, accountability, accountability partner, has done no work. And they're giving you, you know, solutions and recommendations based on an unhealed platform that they're operating in. So that's why I like to be very, very particular on where I share. I always want to share in an environment where it won't go back to further traumatize the other person that I was in. It's never for the purposes of getting sides and taking sides. It really is for the purposes of using everything that showed up in this moment to create a better me for me, ultimately, for me. And then I can share that me with other people.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I have to ask now because I do feel kind of different in your presence. There's something that really shines and helps me show up because of you, I feel like. So I can imagine, and and I, and I would just say knowing that as a host, it's amazing to feel someone else's presence and what that does. So I will say for anyone that's listening, I can imagine that working with you would be a real shift for people. How can people work with you? What does that look like? What do you offer?

Dr. Dravon James:

So I used to do one-on-ones, but you know, you you can only do so many one-on-ones because I still do work full-time as a doctor of pharmacy. So I now just do group coaching sessions. And first I started off doing coaching sessions maybe two and a half years ago now, just not doing any more one-on-ones. And I have one one-on-one client that is still holding on, but other than that, I don't do one-on-ones. But um, and I was just doing women because I really would work with men and they just sort of would get it. They'd be maybe a a little bit reluctant in the beginning, but they had something that I saw inside of them that was maybe we don't get as a little girl, but their take on life was different. So I said, Well, I'm gonna put all of my energy on just working with women. But this year in 2025, I started working doing group sessions with men, solely men, and then group sessions with solely women on my website, which is just my name, drdravonjames.com. You can inquire about the next group that we're having.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I too have worked with men and it's a different experience. So I love that you have that offering. Could you ever see yourself? Do you think that there's value in having a group that is blended?

Dr. Dravon James:

I've thought about that and I have been asked, and maybe because I a lot of the issues that I see, I don't have to call them issues, the specialness that I see with the women, resonate with me on a level. And I think to have true transparency where we don't feel like we need to show up in any capacity for somebody who won't understand on a level that maybe is just purely feminine. So I think if I were to do a blended group, it would be a blended group that wanted to come together after doing individual sessions, like you know, individual or single sex sessions. So I if I had a group of women who said, okay, I've gone through this session with this group, but I'd like to do a session combined with a group of men who went through another session. I could see that being a benefit because a lot of what does come up in group is how do I make my partner or my my next relationship women who were, you know, like myself, late life divorces, divorcees, if that's even a phrase anymore. But um, you know, who are trying to figure themselves out, having a true desire to enter into a long-term relationship and thinking, I don't know if I can do that. I don't know. So just sort of bridging that gap. I do see a benefit to it, but I I would like to have worked with them single sex groups first before I did that.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I love that. So I take it that your work with them, with both groups, is surrounding forgiveness.

Dr. Dravon James:

Well, we open it up to anything, but I will tell you that a lot of it comes back to we don't just talk about forgiveness. We talk about, you know, just you getting on the journey that feels good to your authentic self, which is huge. But a lot of what's blocking people from embracing their authentic self is that they have not forgiven who they believe are other people. And I and I don't say that lightly because I've heard stories that actually keep me awake at night, you know, about things that happen to people. But when we really, really start working on it, is they have not forgiven themselves. Yeah, so until you can really talk about self-love, you have to talk about self-trust. Do you trust you?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Yes.

Dr. Dravon James:

And that is a lot surrounded with unforgiveness. I don't forgive myself for what I did this and when I allowed that. And so we have to go through that process first so I can show you how you have shown up for yourself 95% of the time. And even in that, what you're so disappointed in yourself about, you've even shown up for yourself over and over again and dealt with your own constant ridicule, but you keep showing up. So we can develop that trust through forgiveness. Then we can go to self-love and address some of the other issues, which are sometimes just so easy to address, like career advancement, you know, things of that nature, which are simple after you've done the hard work of going within and really looking at yourself.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I love that question. Do you trust Jo?

Dr. Dravon James:

Yeah. And so often, oh my gosh, that is a brings people to tears when we really, you know, talk about what it looks like and what you think about you. Ego dismissed, you know, resume dismissed, just you. People are just like, yeah, no.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I went to this breath work experience about four days ago. And this last year, coming out to California and listening to that inner voice that said to come here and taking that chance, not returning to pharmaceuticals or other coping mechanisms, you know, pills or drugs or something, really developed a new self within me and allowed me, created an opening for me to love myself and to trust myself, trust that inner voice. But there was a shift these last, I would say, month and a half where I felt like I was losing that spark in me again. And I went to this breath work a few days ago, and it's just amazing that work and what happens. Suddenly there was this clarity and there's this voice that was like, I am nothing. And it was kind of showing me that I feel like the drop-off in my mood suddenly was that I'd gone back to New York. I started clearing out my space, I got rid of my entire wardrobe. I no longer, for the first, you know, a year haven't been over-identifying with New York like I used to. And then it was like this question: I haven't had love, I don't know about my career, I am nothing. It wasn't about accepting that that was true, but it was like it finally came out that that's what maybe I've been feeling or experiencing. And in a way, not even to say it's a bad thing, because sometimes when we start, and I think you know that it's like when you start to see what you're not, you realize what you are. Yes. But I have felt better since this moment of hearing that and feeling that and having a sadness even for that thought that has come back in a way. And how can I hear it newly?

Dr. Dravon James:

Yeah. Oh, that is just so beautiful. When you said that, that is like the shedding of old skins. Like I am nothing, which means that nothing from my past, nothing that I defined myself as, now stands and holds guard over where I'm going or where I am, even where I am to this day. It is beautiful to have a vessel that is just ready to be filled up. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

What do you think about synchronicities in life?

Dr. Dravon James:

Well, I think that, you know, I'll choose the reverse. There is nothing chaotic, there's nothing happenstance on the journey. Right. Everything, because we're so busy and we're so verbal and vocal, and we're whether our mouth is moving or not, we are still talking. Our mind is going a mile a minute unless we've practiced being still, right? All around us is the answer. All around us. If you turn your radio dial to a certain frequency, right, you'll hear it, right? Well, it was still playing, you just weren't tuned in, right? So when you tune in to the frequency where the answer is, yes, you have you're connected, you're plugged in, you're tapped in. Things start happening and lining up. They said the stars align, all this they do. And they always were. It's just we weren't tapped in. We weren't at that, we weren't vibrating at that frequency. And that, even in itself, is not a criticism. That's my belief. We could tap in too soon.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Oh wow.

Dr. Dravon James:

Right. We could tap into that freedom. It's always there, it's available. But it is because of what we have gone through and what we have seen and the lives that we have touched that when we tap into just that moment, we Bring with us a wealth of experience and we come as our full and whole self in that moment. And that's to me when the magic happens. Did you tap in early, you hear people all the time, you know? My mother used to go back to my mom. So she's she used to say something about fruit being ripe too soon, rot goes rotten fast or first, right? You know, she used to tell me that all the time, but I'd say, Oh, why can't I be like this girl and this girl and this girl? She goes, fruit that ripens too soon goes rotten fast, right? And I think about that when we say, Why couldn't I have, you know, have a friend right now who's in a wonderful relationship? And she says, you know, we're we're older, she says, I feel like I have a finite amount of time with him. I wish I had met him when I was 20, when I was 30, when I was 40. And I said, Yeah, this is the perfect time. You needed all those so-called L's, right? So you could appreciate this moment right here. It's happening at the perfect time.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

You've brought up your mom a few times. For those that are listening, because they're tuning in, because heartbreak is about grief, and I know grief can be applied to so many things, but the grief of losing someone. I know that you've spoken about in your book visualization, about visualizing yourself, letting something go. Is there any visualization that you have surrounding someone like your mom or someone you've lost that can help you tap into them in their presence?

Dr. Dravon James:

So that's interesting. I don't know why. I usually don't mention my mom this much. So uh it's interesting, maybe something's going on in the universe. But my mom's um departure was quite sudden and around the holidays and um was not something we were expecting. But if you had asked me prior to that, if I would ever be okay after something like that, I would have said, no, of course not. But for me, how I do deal with it, because there's still a lot of loneliness there and and um just wanting to, I still have like voice messages on my phone that I won't, and I've not listened to them because I can't bear to hear a voice. But I think if I ever got to a point where I needed to hear it, it's still there. But one of the things that has worked really for me is to there's a phrase that they say in church, to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. So I say to myself that my mom is um in a better place, but I have access to her at all times. And I do. I in the morning in the community, I'll just start saying, Mom, I'm so lonely, I'm this so this, and I don't understand this with the kids, and I don't, and I'll just, you know, and I'll even find myself getting frustrated. I was like, I really need to know what you would do in this moment. Wow. Right. And then I go back to my practices, but I do have those moments where I just go ahead and say and I talk to the person and express my loneliness for them, right? And then I know in my heart and soul that this individual, for me, it's my mom for somebody else, it could be their spouse or a child, would want me to live a full and happy life. And so when I go back to saying, as hard as this phrase sounds, it is what it is, Dreva. And you're okay, then I am okay. Do I miss her? Absolutely every day. I do. I would not be human if I didn't, right? Those emotions, that gratitude, I from that, I believe the universe has delivered to me a woman, a friend in my life who's the exact age that my mom would be. And we talk about everything and we laugh, you know, and it helps me, but I had to open up for that. I couldn't stay closed in my pain, if you understand. I had to open up myself because we attract that which we most feel and think on. I thought about my mom and in a way of, like I said, to be present with the Lord, being peaceful, but to be to be mine at all times. Like I can have a conversation with you all times. I'm not competing with any other source. Now, granted, I don't hear your voice. And I would say that I really need to hear your voice. I really need to know that. And then I get this woman that walks into my life quite accidentally. I'm like, oh, this is nice. So I think open up to it. Don't shrink. Like I said earlier, acknowledge that this hurts. And you wish it didn't hurt. But then tell yourself the truth of what you want for yourself. Do you really want to feel bad forever? You don't. You want to be able to be okay. Even missing that individual, you want to know that you're going to be okay. And you have the power. We have the power. We don't tap into how powerful we are often enough. We're always looking for some external source to come in and give us the answer. But what I teach with my clients all the time is that answer is within you. I'm going to help lead you there. I don't have an answer for you, right? But I do have a way to help you go within, right? To help you get in there, right? And face the answer. Maybe it's not the answer that you want. When I had to do all that work to decide that a marriage that had gone on for over 20 years was over, I didn't want that answer. But I had to keep going in and say, okay, this is the answer. This is so painful. But just as I would work with my clients, I work with myself. I said, that answer is within you, darling. It's not out there, it's within you. And then one day say, Yeah, I'm ready to hear that answer. I'm ready to see the truth of what's happening.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I love that that answer is within you, darling. Wow.

Dr. Dravon James:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's painful. And often, if we're honest with ourselves, oftentimes we know the answer. We just want somebody to convince us that that is not the answer. Because that's not what we want to hear. That's not what we want to do, right? But what if I were to tell you that your health, your wealth, your next wonderful relationship is through that pathway. You're going to have to go through that door. And don't worry. When you open that door and you walk through it, you will be safe. You will be supported. And yes, you will be successful. But no one can open the door but you.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

No one can open the door but you. I coined the word break upward, like the direction. I'm curious what might come to mind for you when you hear that word, break upward.

Dr. Dravon James:

Oh, first thing that when you said it, I thought, mommy, let go, right? Because I am this, you know, I mentioned earlier, I'm a mother of a 25-year-old and a 22-year-old. And they were my reason, literally my reason for everything, right? If I did or didn't do something, it was always with them in mind. And they're both living their adult lives. And I still I'm at a place now, so interesting that we're having this, because where I have these talks with myself daily. Daily, I have these talks. Mommy, let go. Let go. They're fine. So we're talking about breaking upward. That's what I would do. I would breathe and smile. And even as I say it, I feel this, like maybe a lot of mothers can relate to this. I feel this tightness in my chest. Like, I want to reach out, I want to save, I want to say, nope, not that street, this street, not you know, not that puddle. Watch out for that. I want to do all of that, right? I want to go and clear the way and sort of blow a trumpet and say, My children are walking here. But I do know, I do know that everything is fine. And it's time for me to, as you say, break upward. Beautiful.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I even think it's interesting that you're saying to yourself, mommy, let go. When you've been in these other kind of talks with your mom, you talk to your mom and then you talk to the mom within you.

Dr. Dravon James:

Yes. Goodness, it is so funny because I was having a conversation with my sister and she said, We're just talking about the things that you do when you're young, and maybe not even so young, how you take your mother for granted. And I said, you know, I sort of feel as though my mother used to say, Well, you'll have children just like you. And I'm like, Oh, I've got children just like me. So a part of me realizes that my mother, maybe she cried in her private places, but she was the type of woman now that I wish to be as a mother. She was like, Oh, well, that's interesting, darling. Let me know how that works out for you. Or oh, that's she never offered any advice. She wasn't the unsolicited advice type, right? And I'm thinking, well, oh, I want to do that. I want to be that way. So that's how I ended up, you know, asking for permission. And, you know, that's a segue to that's me growing up to eventually it will be, you know, that's interesting, darling. But let me know how that works out, right? With love and just not feeling like I want to jump in there and say, uh uh, have you have you thought about this? Or you're not thinking about this.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

And you know when I hear you say it, it feels more supportive, actually. Rather than instructing, allowing and say, I'll be here, come back to me with what you learn, with what you discover.

Dr. Dravon James:

Oh, is that right? That's what this journey is supposed to be about. Even in a romantic relationship, you know, this whole idea is that you are still you, you are still your person. We're going through this journey together, but you still get to be you. And when you get back from whatever it is, you don't, I'm so excited to hear about the journey, and I'll be here, right? So that that's what I hear.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Yeah, and it's allowing your children to be the storytellers.

Dr. Dravon James:

Yeah. Yeah. My mom allowed me to be the storyteller. And so to give that gift forward to them. And when you think about all of the things, it's so easy to get to this season of life and just remember how it all worked out, despite the horrendous. I'm sure if you know someone was sitting on the sidelines saying, My goodness. You know, it all worked out. And we all, you know, we we straighten up, but it is that journey that makes, you know, like my girlfriend who's in this wonderful relationship now, it is that journey which helps you to appreciate this moment.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Let me ask you, how would you say that forgiveness allows one to become thankful for heartbreak?

Dr. Dravon James:

Well, the first thing I would think, and I always take it back to self first, even though forgiveness is me saying, Oh, I forgive this person, I forgive that person. But I think the first thing at forgiveness is to forgive myself, right? Because a lot of times we think that if I hadn't been so silly, if I hadn't been so disobedient, I wouldn't have been in that situation. But I think when we say, I have an opportunity to forgive, and I did it, that opens me up to gratitude, right? And gratitude, if I had to say one over the other, I think you need forgiveness to really have genuine gratitude. I think you do. People who say they are grateful but they don't forgive, they're missing it. So I think once you open yourself up to forgiveness and you practice it, you get to go back and be grateful for whatever it was that you learned from that lesson. And it may take years. It doesn't mean you're gonna learn it right away. It doesn't mean that, oh, I forgave this person. Now I can understand why that happened, but I guarantee you, you will go back and say, Oh my goodness, I'm more resilient because of that. I'm wiser because of that, I'm softer, I'm more genuine. I show up as my authentic self from the beginning because I learned back here, right? I play to my strengths because of that, whatever the that is. So I think forgiveness opens us up to really seeing more clearly and being more grateful for what has happened in the past and for what is in our present.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

I do think that one of the essential ingredients for gratitude is clarity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And if you're steeped in unforgiveness, the water is still muddy. The water is still muddy. If you want that clarity, really sharpen up the forgiveness practice. Forgiveness gives you such an insight to who you are and who you are becoming. You will fall in love with yourself, I guarantee it.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Well, tell my audience where they can find you and where they can fall more in love with you.

Dr. Dravon James:

Thank you for that. I have to say this because I usually forget. I am on Sirius XM Station 146 the first Monday of every month at 7:30 Eastern time. And that is a wonderful way we do a life coaching thing on the Tim Ridley show. And so I'm there. But you can connect with me on my website, which is just my name, Dr. Drayvon James, and you can get my book, Forgiveness, the Pathway to Happiness, on Amazon. There's also a workbook that goes with it that really helps you to drive home the points. And what was your first book called? Oh my gosh. Freedom is your birthright. If you haven't read that book, I always say, open up to you and your freedom. Know that you are free and free indeed. It is you, it is I that keep ourselves caged in this little cage, right? So that is an amazing book. And I try to write books that are always under 100 pages. I try, so I think that may be 102 pages, because I really want the reader to take it and use it as an instructional. Go cover to cover. Don't read a couple chapters and say, Oh, I'll get back to it in a year. Because I really try to go straight to the heart of the matter. And freedom is your birthright does that by letting you know that you are free and free indeed. And whatever it is that you want to start creating in life, let's get started now. Let's drop all these chains and start moving.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Thank you so much.

Dr. Dravon James:

Well, thank you.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Your presence has been adored, and I will remember it. I will smile over it, I will tell people about it. And genuinely, you have touched me. And congratulations on where you've gotten yourself to be this.

Dr. Dravon James:

Oh, thank you. You're so kind. I've enjoyed our conversation.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Before we go, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here, for listening with your whole heart, and for letting these conversations meet you wherever you are. If this episode resonated, the simplest way you can support the podcast is by sharing it with someone you love or someone who might need it more than they realize. You can also leave a review, which does wonders wherever you're listening. It really does help this show find the people it's meant for. And if something stirred in you while you're listening, I'd love to hear from you. You can write me directly at Chelsea C H E L S E A at breakupward.com, B-R-E-A-K-U-P-W-A-R-D.com. Or come find me on Instagram where I have been posting more at Thank You Heartbreak. Until next time, keep choosing honesty, keep choosing softness, and keep breaking upward. All my love, always.