266: Shrinking to Stay: How Avoidance Trains Us to Disappear with Colette Fehr

Have you ever noticed how, in love, we sometimes vanish before anyone asks us to? How we shrink, soften, and quiet ourselves—not because someone else forced us to, but because we learned avoidance as survival?

In this episode, I sit down with Colette Fehr, licensed marriage and family therapist and author of The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations That Create Secure, Lasting Love. We dive into the patterns of self-silencing that many of us develop in relationships—patterns that quietly erode connection and teach us to disappear.

Colette’s book illuminates a truth that’s both shocking and liberating: it’s not only avoidant partners who create distance. Our own avoidance—our quiet quitting, our reluctance to speak up, our people-pleasing—shapes how we show up, how we love, and how we protect ourselves from rejection.

Together, we explore:

• How we become avoidant ourselves through self-silencing and people-pleasing
• The slow erosion of connection caused by avoiding the “hard conversations”
• Identifying our emotional triggers and taking full responsibility for our feelings
• Communication strategies that honor both our needs and our partner’s, without losing ourselves
• The radical Breakupward insight: noticing where we shrink is not shame—it’s a roadmap to reclaim our presence, voice, and boundaries

This conversation isn’t just about heartbreak. It’s about transformation: seeing the ways we’ve disappeared in love, understanding why, and learning how to step fully into ourselves again.

If you’ve ever felt the tension between wanting closeness and fearing conflict—or found yourself quietly giving up pieces of yourself to keep love intact—this episode is for you. Colette and I break down the psychology, the patterns, and the radical path to self-loyalty that emerges when we Breakupward.

Listen, lean in, and discover how your own avoidance has been both a signal and a teacher—and how reclaiming your voice can change everything.

Get in touch with Colette Fehr:

Website

Book

TEDx Talk

Podcast

Instagram

Chelsea Leigh Trescott:

Email: chelsea@breakupward.com

Instagram: https://instagram.com/thankyouheartbreak

Advice Column: https://www.huffpost.com

Writing: https://thoughtcatalog.com/chelsea-leigh-trescott

Transcript

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 0:00

There's a kind of silence that doesn't look like disappearing. It looks like being understanding. It looks like being low maintenance. It looks like regulating yourself instead of asking for more. And over time that silence costs us. Today's conversation is about the hidden price we pay when we suppress our needs, soften our desires, and adapt ourselves to keep a connection, especially within relationships. Not because we're avoidant we don't identify as avoidant, and not because we're bad at relationships, but because somewhere along the way, staying quiet felt safer than being fully seen. In this episode, I'm joined by therapist and author Colette Fair, whose new book just came out, The Cost of Quiet, which explores what happens when silence becomes a strategy, when emotional suppression masquerades a strength, maturity, or independence. Together we talk about the moments where we ignore our instincts, normalize neglect, and slowly abandon ourselves in the name of love. This episode is about learning to tell the difference between self-regulation and self-abandonment, between independence and emotional withholding, between protecting yourself and disappearing from your own life. If you've ever stayed quiet because speaking up felt too risky, if you've ever wondered whether asking for more would cost you the relationship, this conversation is for you. Now before we get into it, I should probably remind you I'm Chelsea Lee Truscott, breakup coach and podcast host of this podcast. Thank you, Heartbreak. And this is episode 266 with Colette Fair. And before we get into it, I want you to think about two words. Two words that change the trajectory of my life, two words that come up for me when I realize that I have been avoiding or been silent, or my quietness has cost me for too long. And those two words are never again. And the beauty of those two words is that they can save you in your future. They can help you return to yourself, help you return to loving yourself by giving yourself promises where there haven't been promises that you've been able to keep for yourself before. But it can be a line in the sand where you look and you see, hey, that was the old way of doing things. And now I am again promising a new standard for myself. And if I can live by this promise, if I cannot betray myself, if I cannot shrink myself around this standard that I feel I must honor for myself from here on out, then my life will only go up from here. And that is part of breaking upward. So as you listen to this episode, as you finish this episode and go about your life, your days, as you step into your light, as you approach the darkness that might be happening in your life, I want you to ask yourself, where are the moments where I wish to say never again? What are the conditions that I am experiencing in my life that I wish to say never again? If you don't have those moments in your life right now, that's beautiful. Congratulations. Ask yourself, if I look back, what were some of the moments where I didn't say it at the time, maybe, or maybe I did, but maybe I did it, where never again would have aided me. Okay. So as you listen to this episode, keep just those two words in mind. Never again. Thank you so much for being here, and thank you for spending your time with us. Hi.

Colette Fehr 4:24

Hi, how are you?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 4:26

I'm just wanting to slow down time. I just want to slow down time. I'm actually on the the West Coast, so it's earlier. Like I'm up earlier, so .

Colette Fehr 4:36

Where are you on the West Coast?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 4:38

I'm in LA.

Colette Fehr 4:39

And where are you from?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 4:41

I'm from Miami, but I'm like a longtime New Yorker. So I actually no way.

Colette Fehr 4:47

Yeah, where in New York?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 4:49

The East Village, Manhattan.

Colette Fehr 4:51

Okay, very cool. I'm originally from Upper East Side. I'm in Orlando, of all places. That's where I live for like 29 years.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 5:00

Now, how did you choose that?

Colette Fehr 5:01

I mean, I didn't choose it. Met my ex-husband in college and I went to Tulane in New Orleans and he was a southerner and I was a New Yorker and he was in finance. So we moved back to New York after college, and like that was the plan. We lived in the city and he was like miserable. He's like, it's freezing, it's too expensive. So anyway, he's like, I have this job offer in Winter Park where we can like buy a house, have a pool in like our early 20s. And I was like, okay, sold because I was freezing too. And it's one thing to live in New York when your parents pay for you. But like as a young adult, I was like, fuck. Like, I can't even like buy a soda. And we had good jobs. So we moved here and then I got divorced and I couldn't ever leave. And now I love it. I I could never live in a cold climate as much as I love New York, never again.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 5:55

Those two words have really defined a lot for me. Yeah, I'll never forget being in New York and those words coming to me before I really changed things for myself. You know, it was in terms of relationships, how I was dating, the state of my mind, but also never again in terms of I ended up getting this opportunity to rent out my place for a month. And then I came to LA for the first time for a full month, had an incredible time with myself. It was very healing. Went back to New York. Someone else reached out if they could rent my place the next month. And I just shipped my car out. And now I've been on the road with it. But I had said, like, I just don't want to be there in the winter anymore. Like, never again, of going through such dark moments and having to work so hard to come out of them. Like I just, I feel like I can't afford to go into those low places anymore.

Colette Fehr 6:52

How are you feeling now being there and trying to get settled?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 6:57

Originally, it was hard to not compare and then not compare the people. I think for a long time I needed New Yorkers to be in constant interaction with. I was in low places in my life for a long time, and I felt like these strangers in New York, at any moment if I spoke to them, they could pour this wisdom into me that would guide me. I always said they were like my guardian angels. And I think for a while I didn't trust that I could navigate on my own. And also because I was constantly in interactions with others, I think I was always taking other people in. And even though I thought I was reflecting a lot, I wasn't really just with my own voice. So coming out to LA and I'd gotten off of all the medication I was on for 10 years, cold turkey. I'd gone through intense sorrow of getting off of all these coping mechanisms. Then got that off, you know, ability to come out here for a month, left all the drugs behind, you know, like, hey, let's go out there, let's see if I can really do this. And being in a place that, even though people say LA is a city, it is much quieter in my mind than New York.

Colette Fehr 8:07

Oh yeah.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 8:07

And I wasn't having, I think, a lot of like the ego validation that I got in New York. You know, in New York I felt very recognized by the world. Always people thinking I was someone, like at any moment was gonna be the moment I was discovered. And that seemed to go away coming out here. So all I had was I had to befriend myself in order to not panic. And I started going to the desert, which is, you know, the opposite of New York. And I just heard myself. Your book talks about it, the inner child, and having that validation and that compassion. And it seems simple, but I just didn't have that. It's one of those things it's like I think from the outside, people wouldn't assume, right? We don't always we kind of look at people and we think that they're speaking to themselves so well. Look how they're guiding themselves. And yet there can be this inner battle that that no one would ever perceive. And, you know, I think that's the loneliest one of all because that's often where people don't step in to help you. And like, you know, you talk about you have to speak for yourself, but sometimes even speaking up for yourself isn't always the answer. It's just you have to speak to your yourself in a way that's more loving.

Colette Fehr 9:19

Right, right. It's so true. Everything you said is the essence of the book. At the end of the day, it's about your relationship with yourself, the dialogue you have with yourself, how you nurture yourself. And it is missing for so many people. As a therapist for years, I'm really inside people's minds and what's going on there. And what you wouldn't perceive from the outside is how hard so many of us are on ourselves and how much can change that permeates every area of life when we soften that dialogue. It's really transformative.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 9:51

I came out here also with this intention of really wanting to prioritize relationships, friendships, and also relationships. And in New York, I was such a moment girl. Like I was a girl that made moments, but then went off on my own after. And so I told myself that I had to follow the feeling really. Like if I felt something good with someone to pursue it. And I've, you know, also been really wanting to speak up about, you know, what I quote unquote want, and that I've always wanted to be in love and have a family and have children. And I realized like kind of the cost of speaking up and saying what you want is it can cost you what you have, right? Like with someone. Also, though, I I met someone and I, you know, was in, I feel like the first kind of dating relationship dynamic that I had been in in so long, where it was committed for months. But it was also felt so familiar because it was like this old version of myself. And sometimes I feel like when we're trying to cross over that bridge, we often like reach our hand out to this old version that we think that we can usher in. And it's been so interesting to date someone that has so many of these components of where I was, and that being where you would never think from the outside, this admitting of this self-hatred. And I look at him, I'm like, where are the bodies buried? I I don't see what there is to hate. And yet someone holds that so closely. And I think what I started to realize that just like I used to feel so hard to let love in or to really experience or feel the love that's being offered, if you don't have that for yourself, it just it's just never gonna penetrate. Receiving your book is so interesting because, you know, I look at him and I've spoken to him about so many of these avoidant tendencies that I'm experiencing, which is like my kryptonite. And I don't see myself as an avoidant person, but yet by wanting to keep that peace, wanting to regulate so much on my own what I'm saying, I am avoiding.

Colette Fehr 12:02

Right.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 12:02

And my mom said something so interesting the other night to me in the car. She was like, We're talking about his avoidance, and she's like, So why would you be there? And I said, Well, there is actually something intimidating about meeting someone that's ready for all the things I say that I want.

Colette Fehr 12:17

Yes.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 12:17

She goes, So you're avoiding.

Colette Fehr 12:20

Yeah. I mean, this is exactly why I wrote this book too. People don't think of themselves as avoidant. And we talk so much about attachment styles now. This is different from avoidant attachment style. And it's a really pervasive phenomenon that in the years, 13 going on, 14 years, that I've been doing therapy at an intense pace. I mean, I have sat with so many couples. It's insane. This is the primary problem. So that people are avoiding conflict for all of these reasons. It's so human. And yet it ends up that we build our own walls that robs us of the connection with others that we need and deserve and with ourselves.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 13:02

Yeah, I have a twin sister that's a therapist, and she hears me at times and she's just like, I don't understand you. How could you not have said something back? What is it? Your pride, your ego? How could you not have asked the question? And at a certain point, I'm like, it didn't even occur to me that I could. Yeah. And I think that there's a part, you know, and your book is focused also on women. It doesn't have to be, but it does speak to women and the people pleasing, wanting to please. But at times I'm like, well, I don't want to look like the difficult woman, the jealous woman. So you're saying that this is different than attachment styles. So what is it then that you're speaking of and you're seeing?

Colette Fehr 13:44

You know, attachment styles may influence the way we avoid, but avoidance in this case, so when I say The Cost of Quiet for the title, quiet is a euphemism for avoiding conflict. And so I'm talking about the ways that some of them are conscious, but most of them are unconscious, that we don't reveal the real truth about what we feel and what we need. And most of that is emotional. Sometimes we need or want a behavior change. Hey, could you make sure to call me back if you say you will, just for example. But most of the time what's missing is that we're hurt and we're scared, especially relationally. We all fear abandonment and rejection. And that's at the core of almost every relationship dynamic that's going on, whether we're tuned into it or not. And most of us aren't. So it's really about saying, hey, when you didn't call back, I was scared that I'm not important to you or that you don't really care about me. Could you reassure me? Right. That piece, just to use that example, is what's often missing. And so what we really need to do rather than these avoidant behaviors identify is to speak about our feelings and our needs. What happens instead is that we tend to do we either bicker about a surface issue. That's one example, you know, who moved the milk and didn't close the refrigerator door, and we don't talk at all about what's underneath that, or we criticize, we blame, we self-silence. So quiet isn't always technically quiet, but it's any way we don't really speak to our own inner experience and share that in our world, which requires being vulnerable. And while it's natural to feel a little bit uneasy or even downright terrified of being vulnerable, we don't get vulnerability back. We don't get emotional intimacy or connection if we're not willing to take that risk. And most of the time, if we do reach from that place, we get a very different response. I see it every day in my office.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 15:49

What do you think that vulnerability looks like or what does it sound like?

Colette Fehr 15:53

We talk about vulnerability so much. Now it's almost lost its meaning. Be vulnerable, be vulnerable. Every Renee Brown first brought it onto the stage. You know, for therapists, this is not anything new. But back maybe 20 years ago, when one of her first books was big, the whole world was kind of like, oh wow, we got to be vulnerable. And I'm so grateful to her for bringing this to the public consciousness. But being vulnerable is not necessarily dissolving into a puddle of emotion, being dramatic, emoting all over the place. Emotions have a bad rap. It's really being clear about what you feel and being willing to say, hey, that made me feel a little bit insecure, right? Could you reassure me? My feelings were hurt. Instead of getting angry, not answering someone's text, stewing in a negative story about them. Well, I'll show them, I won't respond, right? I'm just making up a couple of examples. But when we say to somebody, hey, it's a little scary to tell you this because I'm a little uncomfortable with having these conversations, but my feelings were hurt when I had, I'll just use an example from my own life that's real. I last night I had a launch event for my book, The Cost of Quiet. It's a really big deal, felt bigger. I've been married twice, and it felt bigger than either of my weddings. And, you know, it's a very vulnerable process. I'm a first-time author. I've put my heart and soul, everything I've learned into this book. And I had a very good friend going all the way back to my early days as a kid, who just in my interactions with her, I just felt so dismissed and unimportant. And she ended up blowing off the event. And it just the way it was handled, it wasn't so much that she couldn't come. It was the way it was handled that really, really hurt me. And so it's the difference in something like that. My instinct, and I think our human instinct is to avoid by saying, you know what? That hurt me. I'm offended. And I am offended. I'm a little bit angry. I'm definitely hurt and sad if I dig underneath. So the difference, the avoidant way would be to say, you know what? Fuck her. Wait, I'm sorry, can I curse? Yeah, of course. Okay, okay, okay. I'm like such a I have such a foul mouth. So I should I love it. I love it. Yeah. So my instinctive protective part is to go fuck her. I'm like done. I don't even want to be friends with her because I'm so angry and hurt right now. There's another voice of wisdom in there and goes, Colette, do you really want to throw away a 40-year friendship because of this one thing? And honestly, I'm not even sure because it feels like such a pivotal event. But if I'm willing to be vulnerable and honor myself, what I could do is say, hey, I was really hurt by our interactions recently. And I'm still kind of processing how I feel. I don't want to say something I'll regret, but I don't want to blow it off either because we've been friends a long time and that matters to me. I'd like to sit with this a little bit and then maybe we could talk about what happened if you're open to it. And that is not easy to do, but that is coming from the adult self. We all have that within. I call it the sage self in the book, where I'm taking the risk to be vulnerable. I might not get a good response. She might get offended. She might be like, what are you talking about? Right. I have a feeling she has no idea she's done anything wrong. And in her mind, maybe she hasn't, but I know I do feel deeply, deeply hurt and offended. And my feelings are valid. I haven't done anything about it yet. Okay. This is just last night. So I'm really challenging myself. Like I'm very good now in doing the principles in this book and my romantic relationships, but in other relationships, I still struggle with it because it's human and instinctive when we're hurt to say, well, forget it. I'm not going to go there for anything because I might get rejected even more. And so I'm going to like hunker down and put up my walls. But when we do that, we create distance and that person reacts to our reaction. And then they're like, well, wow, Colette got so cold. She, what a bitch, right? Like, I'm not calling her. And then it sets off this cascade of reactions. So I am going to, I feel so upset and angry about it that I need some time. I say in the book, prepare before you share. I need some time to sit with my feelings. I'm going to use my own blueprint that I share with my clients and offer in the book. But I am going to say something regardless of how it lands, because it's not really in this case, even about what happens with the friendship. It's about me processing my feelings and standing up for myself in a way that's both assertive and kind, but also vulnerable. It's the service I do to myself.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 20:55

Right. You talk about how so often that we're looking for validation from others, but really it's about validating ourselves. So by you speaking up, you're doing it for yourself. And what are the other benefits?

Colette Fehr 21:09

It's hard to sell if someone hasn't done it. But once you start embracing conflict in this way, even little, little things, the one I'm talking about is kind of big, it really feels good because 90% of the time, we really do get a good response when we're vulnerable. Not all the time. We're not in charge of other people's reactions. But the benefits are that, first of all, this is how we're designed as human beings. We really are supposed to say what's so. We are supposed to pay attention to our emotions. You know, for years, emotions have been suppressed, and that's the predominant culture. I just did an interview with the Times in London and the Daily Mail over there. And they're like, both of the reporters were like, you know, we're Brits. We like don't do this stuff. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Right. What would you say to people in England? So we have emotions for a reason. They're information processing signals from the body. When you're angry, that's a signal that something's happened that isn't okay, that you need to take action. This is why you feel the surge of adrenaline in your body. Blood is rushing to your limbs, right? It's a primal instinctive drive to go do something about what's happening that's wrong. You know, as so many people feel about so much in politics these days, they're galvanized. Like this isn't okay. So there's no emotion that's wrong. Where we go wrong is that we either push it down, we try to compartmentalize it, or it comes out explosively or passive aggressively. But the emotion itself is never wrong. So the benefit is that we learn to listen to our system, to get curious, to offer ourselves validation. Hey, it makes sense that you feel that way. And I would feel that way too, right? Like that dialogue with ourselves, that compassion of saying, this is really hard, right? Like I've said to myself, it of course you're disappointed that your friend acted this way. This was important to you. You know, it was a big night, and it's really hurtful that somebody didn't seem to care. And maybe she has reasons I don't know about yet, but my hurt is valid. So the benefit is we process, we feel good energetically. We know that emotional suppression for women in particular has been researched and linked to all kinds of physical disease, risk of cardiovascular disease, which is the number one killer for women, autoimmune disorders, irritable bowel syndrome, not to mention anxiety and depression. So we are not designed to keep emotions in at all. It's not good. Now, people think keeping emotions in, don't go yelling at people. We've got to get regulated inside. And when you validate and soothe yourself, you get emotionally regulated. And then I give tools in the book to really get clear on what you need to say and exactly how to say it, kind of like an emotional mad libs. So when you go into these conversations, you're set up for success. And the other reward is that you have a more connected relationship with the people around you. Cause when you're willing to say, hey, my feelings were hurt, and it's so cringy. I'm so embarrassed to even say this out loud, right? When you name how awkward it is, people are like, oh my God, me too. I'm like dying inside right now, right? Like I want to run away. But like, thank you for being willing to tell me how you felt. It leads to such a deeper connection with people and it's it's a way of life. And you build your confidence too. Like, I feel more confident at 52 with cellulate and wrinkles and like fat rolls on my stomach than I ever have in my life because I'm really living authentically connected to myself, and this is such a fundamental part of it. I'm so glad I painted such an attractive picture for you too there. You normalized a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's the real deal at this age.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 25:17

Oh god, I'm inching up.

Colette Fehr 25:21

Well, you look fabulous, so you can't be that close to me.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 25:24

I was just in Mexico two days ago, getting a little face tune. No. Um well, your face looks fantastic. Thank you. I wish they had done more.

Colette Fehr 25:33

I may have to find out about some of that from you.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 25:36

Yeah, I'll I'll I spill all my secrets. I don't believe in having secrets.

Colette Fehr 25:40

Me neither.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 25:41

You know, today with being able to not just talk in person and not just sit on a couch talking to your partner, but being able to text and call.

Colette Fehr 25:53

Yeah.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 25:54

Is there a stronger way to initiate conversations? Do you think that, like with your friend, do you think that the heads up that you give needs to come in a text message? Or do you think that it's appropriate to call someone up?

Colette Fehr 26:11

I think it would be okay for in this case for me to text. Yeah, I've kind of decided that when and if I hear from her, I'll just say I don't want to be dishonest, but I definitely don't want to have the conversation by text. Like Wait, so you're gonna wait until you hear from her? I mean, I'm gonna wait until I hear from her in terms of like blowing off the event. Like, I'm launching my book in a couple days. I am like have so much going on. And I really do need a little time. So in this case, I checked with myself to your point of like, am I just avoiding this? But I really don't want to get into a whole big emotional thing as I'm launching my book. I've got family in town. So if I hear from her, then I'm not gonna like be fake, but I'm not gonna get into the meat of it by text, which is something I really discourage my clients from and has become a big problem that many of my couples, and it's not just the young ones, are having their whole argument via text. And it's a really bad idea when you understand the principles of co-regulation, meaning we're designed as human beings to have eye contact, close proximity to people, especially for hard conversations. We need the safety signals that comes from physical presence. And also words are only, you know, depending on which study you cite, between 7% to 50% of communication. The rest comes from tone and body language and facial expression. So having an argument by text where you don't have any of that context, it's just a bad idea or having a meaty conversation about your feelings. So in this case, if I don't hear from her, then I will reach out as soon as I've had a chance to sort through what I want to say and when I have a minute to really give some emotional space to the conversation. But if I happen to hear from her, like, hey, I'm so sorry about what happened, you know, I don't want to act like no worries when that's not really how I feel, but just to say, you know, thanks for your text. Like I am feeling a little bit upset and I'd like to talk to you about it. I just don't think now is a good time. Could we set a time to talk, say next week or something? But technology is not our friend in this case. It's really not helping us on the connection front. It's wonderful that we can hop on Zoom, that you and I can talk for, you know, across the country. But in terms of really sharing what matters, especially with a romantic partner, we really need to be face to face. And text can be great to say, hey, let's have a face-to-face conversation. This is important. When can we do it?

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 29:00

I've so struggled with dating and thinking that, oh my God, the way that I'm catching up with someone or someone maintaining a connection with me throughout the day is from a text.

Colette Fehr 29:11

I know.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 29:12

That type of stuff feels avoidant to me.

Colette Fehr 29:14

I agree. I agree. And I think it is. I think society has trended that way, unfortunately. If when you understand the psychology of attachment and attachment science, and most of us have lived this, that you think, oh, it's crazy that someone can fall in love with like someone fake on the internet, right? It's like some horrible old guy across the world pretending to be the love of your life and you're madly in love. But these text messages are kind of a faux connection, and yet they produce the same response physiologically in us. They can produce that limerence that's so common in the dating period, you know, where our brain is lit up with dopamine and oxytocin and vasopress and all of these neurochemicals that cause us to attach and bond so strongly and feel almost high on love. And, you know, I think it's got limerence has gotten a bad rap as if it only happens to people who tend toward addiction, or it only happens in these emotionally unstable relationships. And that's just really not true. Limerence is how nature set us up to actually fall in love by minimizing what's bad about people during that honeymoon phase so that we will actually bond long enough to procreate, right? From a nature perspective, that's the goal. Of course, that's not our goal always in modern times, but we have to be really, really careful because the love bombing and gaslighting and all this stuff that is so common that we just are only now calling these terms, but has been going on forever, is even more prevalent and so much easier to do now that we have these little nasty devices. And right, somebody can wake up and message 30 different women.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 31:06

Then tell me this. I have a friend that believes that every man is cheating, at least in his mind. Interesting. How do we not get trapped in that paranoia? How do we stay open to me? Like I told you, like, I don't have secrets. I hold other people's secrets, but I try to live in a way where I have nothing to hide. I don't mind that someone is looking over my shoulder and they see my password going in. I even take the person when I was dating. I went to the bathroom, I think he was on my phone. And I again talk about never saying anything, but at the end of the day, I'm like, well, I have nothing to hide. Supposedly that's not how everyone is. How do we continue to pursue and trust in a connection when, like you're saying, we have no idea what people are doing with their devices and hiding?

Colette Fehr 31:58

Yeah, I honestly, it's really hard, especially in modern times, because there's so much we don't know and we don't have as we used to rely solely on our experience interacting with people in person. Yeah. And that's just not the case for modern dating. Now, even then, people could be fooling us. So there is no way to completely foolproof at all unless you have total walls up. And then, and I see this a lot with clients, then nobody gets in. You know, the truth is that that the business of love is risky, it is dangerous. I'm married now for 10 years on my second marriage. I feel very stable and secure. I still could come home and find a post-it note on the stairs. I don't even have stairs, right? But this is Florida, but right, a post-it note on the fridge that says, like, I'm leaving. I had a client that that happened to, a 30-year marriage. She came home and found a post-it note that her husband had left. So it is a risky proposition and we are not safe. And yet, if we are connected to ourselves, then we approach this with the trust ladder. This is not my concept, but it's one I love and I can't remember who it originates with. I always hate to hijack somebody else's concept, but it's so true that we let down our walls, we allow someone to know us, we allow them in a little bit, and it's like ping pong, right? Like I toss the ball to you, and then I'm gonna see if you hit back. And if you do and you toss the ball back nicely, right? Then that builds one rung on the ladder of trust, where then maybe I progress to more. So vulnerability does have to come in stages. We have to stay connected to ourselves. Our instinct often knows if something doesn't feel right, but we can be quick, especially if we're feeling a lot of those neurochemicals and a lot of attraction, to dismiss some of those signals or to tell ourselves, oh my God, you're making a big deal out of nothing. You know, don't be so needy, don't be so high maintenance, right? All this stuff women have internalized from society that's such bullshit. I think we've got to also, as women, I know it can be scary, but really raise our standards and ask for more of what we want earlier on. Like, hey, I know modern times everybody texts, but I really prefer a phone call, at least occasionally, right? Or if that's what you want. If that's not what you want, don't ask for it. But don't be afraid to say, hey, this is how I like to interact in the dating process. And then we've got to really pay attention to how what people show us and believe them, because usually there are some people that are just master manipulators, unfortunately, and there just aren't red flags until very far in that does happen. But a lot of times people will reveal themselves in those small ways, and then we course correct, and we just can't totally protect ourselves unless we stay out of the game.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 35:04

Right. I know for myself that I have asked for phone calls and not receive them. So what happens when you, like you're saying, you say what you want, what connection would look like for you? You state your preference and then you don't receive it. Is this the moment of the cost of quiet of ignoring and normalizing it and just allowing their preference to win over? You know, what do you do in a moment like that?

Colette Fehr 35:32

Yeah. These are the moments. So I'm so glad you asked that because I think that's such a common thing. A lot of people will say to me, Well, I don't ask for what I need because it would hurt worse to ask and then not get it. And that is a protective stance and it's very human. And yet, when we feel the empowerment of asking, even if we don't get it back, then we can reframe that and see that as powerful information that lets us make choices. So it doesn't feel as bad as we think it's going to. So, first of all, brava to you for saying, hey, I would prefer a phone call. And I've said the same thing. Like, if you want to date me, I need to see you. I need to speak to you. I don't just want text messages. I mean, I was single 11 years between marriages. So I've done the whole online dating thing. I've been manipulated, blindsided, heartbroken. Like I've had it all. Bamboozled? That's my new way. Bamboozled. I've been bamboozled. And despite knowing what I know. So I think when you get that information back, you've put it out there, you've made it clear, you've done your part to come forward with vulnerability, with assertiveness, you've been kind, you've been clear. And somebody just doesn't make an effort, then that's the moment that I think some of us, because maybe we're into the person, we might get tempted to narrate away an excuse, or I guess this is just not working for them. But that's where I would really encourage people to listen to your sage self and say, does this really work for me? Someone that I've stated my needs and they've just completely ignored them and made no effort. Is this who I would potentially want to build a long-term partnership with? And it's funny, my 22-year-old daughter, she just moved to Maui for her first job out of college and she's dating a new guy and listening to her. They had their first argument. They're in that in-love stage. And I was so proud of her because she was like, you know, he wanted her to delete all of her photos from her previous relationships from the phone because they made him feel threatened. And she said, No, I feel like that crosses a line. I have no romantic attachment to these people, but it's part of my life. These are my memories, and I'm not willing to do it. And he said, Well, then this isn't gonna work for me. And she was like, Whoa. So then she went back and they had a conversation and she said, you know, I feel like this is a bad sign of how you handle conflict. Like if the first sign of a problem or a disagreement, you're gonna say the relationship's over. I don't feel safe to date you. And I was like, you know, right? That's wow. Yeah. And I did not do that at 22. I would have been like, okay, I'll delete them all just to make you happy so you don't leave me. I mean, that is how I would have been. Because I was very anxiously attached. And, you know, that still is probably a default deep down, despite the fact that I'm in a secure relationship now. So I think we can abandon ourselves in these moments, especially when we really like somebody. Dating is like beats you up sometimes so badly. There's just such bullshit out there. When you find someone you really connect with, it's hard to like 100%.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 38:52

If you're find someone where you've built this companionship with, it's like, well, I haven't received this much, even if I'm not receiving many of the things.

Colette Fehr 39:01

Absolutely, and I've been there and I've done it too many times, but it ends up being a problem in the end. And most of us can look back when we're years into a relationship and say, wow, I did the seeds of what's not working now and how my needs aren't being met. It was there early. There are those pivotal moments, and we bypassed it. So the more we can, it takes a lot of courage, but the more we love ourselves, the more we're in connection with ourselves, the more we might say, God, it sucks to think about letting this person go and like sitting around by myself or getting back on those fucking apps again that just destroy everyone. Like it's so exhausting, right? But I don't want to build something with somebody who is showing me that when I express my needs, they just don't give a shit.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 39:53

Yeah. I hate to bring myself up, but I want to bring it up. Bring it up, bring it up. What I love that your daughter did, and I cannot believe you have a 22-year-old. That's amazing. You look so young. It's so great. Um is she calls out the pattern or what could become a pattern. Yes. Yeah, I love that. And so who I've been with, he wanted to pull back and get time to work on himself on his own. Which I remember when I was in like the throes of dependency and self-hatred. What I really wanted from I think the people I was dating was support.

Colette Fehr 40:34

Yes.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 40:34

You know, like was they were begging for vulnerability. I gave it and I felt like I never heard from them again. Or I was going through grief, my grandmother died, and I never got another call. You know, and I think that after those moments, I was like, I want to extend, that's part of love, is extending support, right? But I also met this point coming through that and and giving myself tender loving care on my own because I felt like ultimately that was the only way it could get done, because no one was showing up. Is that now I'm like, if his job is not going well, if he's depending on substances, if he's has self-hate. Yeah. How is this not? I've I've spoken to him like, but what if you lose your job in the future and you have a family? Are you gonna say that you need a few months on your own to deal with that on your own because you have to go into hiding to do it? I understand. I remember that I pulled through on my own, but it was almost like that was the only option I had. Right. And I'm extending support. My support is love. And you're saying I have to do this on my own, I have to do this in hiding. And how is this not a pattern of when there is conflict within you? You say I need to disappear for a while. And if that works for you, how do you not always return to that in the future?

Colette Fehr 42:05

I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on the pattern, right? I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry. Just like so strongly resonating with what you're saying. And what I'm thinking is, of course, I hate to like analyze people I haven't even met. So, you know, caveat. I could be totally wrong. We don't have the benefit of this person's own narration of why they're doing what they're doing. But that's something that potentially could be not only avoidant behavior, as I talk about in the book, but also more of an avoidant attachment style. A lot of people have learned to like retreat from others and the world when they're hurting because nobody was ever there for them when they were young. And so they do have a more avoidant attachment style. But human beings are designed. This is what most people are missing. We are designed, we have to take care of ourselves. We're our primary caretaker, but we do need support. It is okay to depend on others. We're wired for attachment and connection. So the idea of turning to people, we're we're herd animals. We're supposed to live in community. We're supposed to reach out to people when we're hurting and feel their support, even though we're responsible for ourselves emotionally. So that is like what you're paying attention to, is so important. And it doesn't mean this person doesn't have reasons for what he's doing, his own wounding, right? We don't know. But at the same time, do I want to build a life with someone who this may be his pattern that when he's hurting, and it and it probably is, yeah, right for whatever reason, to seclude himself, to withdraw, it's very painful to be in a relationship with someone who isn't emotionally available. In fact, I would argue it's the most painful thing, and that was the hallmark of my first marriage is that there just was no, I could not access any emotional connection despite having a perfect. Relationship on the surface. I mean, outside looking in, everybody thought we were like the best couple possible, but there was nothing like I could not reach him. And he didn't share when something was wrong or painful. So I think your instincts are so spot on, but it is so painful when we're vulnerable and when somebody invites us to be vulnerable. And then they just kind of don't take care with it, or they withdraw or retreat. I think it's really, really hard. And yet I think the more we're doing it and the more we're connected to ourselves with the self-love instead of the self-hatred, which is so much more natural to be hard on ourselves. The more we're self-loving, the more it's like, wow, you know what? Good for you. I put myself out there. I thought this was being reciprocated. And now I know that this person isn't worth continuing to invest time. And I can like take care of my hurt from this. I'll recover from it, but I'm not going to continue to put energy if somebody shows me that they're it's not going to be a two-way street.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 45:10

Right. It is what I really check in with myself about is this loving of me to invest in?

Colette Fehr 45:22

I love that framework that you just said. I think that's such a great way to ask yourself. That curiosity inside is the foundation of my whole book. But I love that way of saying, is it loving of me to continue to invest in this, right? Is this an act of self-love or is this an act of self-abandonment? Because some other part of me wants what, right? We do have parts of self. And sometimes there's a part that wants attention, that wants to feel loved, that wants to feel wanted. It's so human. And then in our wise self, we know, you know what, this person, it isn't really love. It isn't really care. I'm setting myself up for more disappointment. I have enough evidence to know that this doesn't really make sense, but there's still a part of me that wants to continue. It's hard to do.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 46:09

I think what that part is at times is that for me, it was like I got to see this expression of love come out of me. You know, I think I was really good at throughout the day having platonic experiences that felt intimate and being very revealing with people and very close with people. But then to really engage in that with one person in a romantic way, it's like I finally got to see all my growth a bit on display. I had an outlet. I had an outlet for my attention, an outlet for my care, an outlet for, again, my support and my expression of love. I think what happened is like I was so falling for myself.

Colette Fehr 46:53

Yes. Yes.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 46:55

And so it's hard to drop out of that because I was finally getting to see what I can offer. And that doesn't come around often for me because I don't really stop on people like that easily. It's like I felt so alive. I already feel alive in life and I feel in awe on my own in my solitude and my adventure with life, but I felt alive in a different way. I felt so awake. And then I'm gonna have to transition out of that. But I think that I just what I don't want to do is to engage in self-neglect and also to not feel a little bit more cherished.

Colette Fehr 47:36

I mean, it it's you gave me goosebumps listening to you describe that because I think this is so often the case in these dating situations that we fall in love with how we feel and who we are in this relationship. Even oftentimes when it's early, I remember years that I would take off of dating. I once went three years without a single date, no interactions. I was in grad school. I was like, I just I can't afford the ups and downs emotionally that comes with that process when I need to be so focused. And going back into dating, I felt so vulnerable and so raw. And after being like asleep in that part of my life for so long, first connection, you know, I too always feel alive, but I felt exuberant and right. And then when I started to see that this person wasn't probably going to be someone that could meet my needs long term for a variety of reasons, you know, you're not just walking away from them, you're walking away from that version of you that was so exciting to embody. Yes. It's hard. It's really it's so wild. It's so wild. The self-neglect, it's not worth it. As hard as it is, I just have to say that the self-neglect isn't worth it because that's the ultimate cost, right? Totally.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 48:57

And then it's like engaging in that pattern again, which is also its own form of like addiction. I just was in that for so long, but now I feel like I've been out of it. I I've I've strengthened the spirit within me that can't go like again, never again. Never again. And I don't want to unnormalize the neglect. And just one thing I want to touch on is that like really wanting to inspire women and men too, that to not silence yourself in the physical realm either. Intimacy, because I was like you, it's like I could I spent, you know, years, it wasn't like my intention, like celibate, you know, like where I wasn't with anyone. But when I am, it's I'm so passionate. Like I create like and I just realized like it's just such a form of self-expression. My thoughts on kissing is on my dating profile. Kisses that blur time. I mean, kissing has always been the most important thing. And I've been with now the last two guys I've really committed to had intense intimacy issues. And again, you could see this from the beginning. And how I allowed myself to stay and put my body through that, I mean, is such a form of neglect and silencing. I feel like we have to be so careful to what we make ourselves privy to energetically.

Colette Fehr 50:23

That is 100% it. And the more we're connected to ourselves, the more we can discern what is self-neglect, because there's so much noise in the mind and there are so many different competing motives. We want that sensuous kissing. I'm with you. Kissing is the best, right? Everything. Yeah. And like some connections just feel so intense. They are addictive. They are, and they're they're designed to be that way. But at the same time, that same person can be sending signals that they're not safe, that they're not a wise investment. And the more we're connected inside, the more we're talking to our inner child, we're noticing parts of self that, like, hey, there's a part of me that really wants to keep this going. And yet, there's a part of me that knows that this would be an act of self-neglect. What most of us do is that we're just drowning all of it out, right? We go with the thing that feels the best in the short term because that's kind of how our brains are designed. And emotional maturity and self-honoring is really about being able to prioritize our long-term well-being. And that requires being present to ourselves and the moment and really paying attention and knowing we're gonna make mistakes. And then we can say, like, okay, that was a hard lesson. Like, that caused some pain. And, you know, I'm not gonna beat myself up, but what can I learn from this that I carry forward in the future? There is absolutely no benefit to being hard on ourselves, but we do have to be willing to take an honest inventory and really pay attention and learn from our mistakes.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 52:03

I coined the word break upward, and I'm curious what it might mean to you.

Colette Fehr 52:08

Oh, I love that term. So break upward, what it says to me is that when you break up, you're taking some valuable nuggets of wisdom that can propel you forward and upward into a better relationship next, a better you, more enlightenment. We learn the most about ourselves in relationships, even the really shitty ones. That's the good news. These painful lessons show us parts of ourselves and where we need to grow, where we're still wounded, where we need healing, that we would not find in isolation. You know, you can build a fortress around you and feel relatively comfortable, but you'll never grow as much as you will if you're willing to be in relationships. So I think breaking upward to me says you're only going to get better from this, even if it caused some pain.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 53:04

And what do you hope that The Cost of Quiet gives people?

Colette Fehr 53:10

I hope it gives people a whole new framework and real permission to know and honor yourself deeply. At the end of the day, even though it's a relationship book, it's really about your relationship with yourself. And I've heard from so many people already, advanced readers who are not in relationships currently, who read the book and said, wow, this has really changed the way I'm showing up, you know, even with my friends, the way I'm metabolizing what's happening to me, even in my internal dialogue with myself. It is such a game changer to how you feel about yourself to really notice what you're feeling, identify your needs, and feel confident when you come forward, however much you speak up. You know, sometimes maybe you make the decision, oh, this is genuinely not worth getting into. There are times for that. But the more you're connected to yourself, the more you know what's true for you. And that's what I really hope this book helps people do.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 54:13

Thank you for being a guide for me. I could totally see how having you as a therapist would be a gift. Thank you.

Colette Fehr 54:21

That's the greatest compliment I could get. You're like making me get tears in my eyes.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 54:26

Thank you. What a treasured experience.

Colette Fehr 54:29

Oh, thank you. And maybe sometime we can get together when I'm out doing a book event on the West Coast. I would love to.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 54:35

Please reach out to me. And I'm gonna take everything that you've been saying and apply it to my own life. I'm gonna be brave.

Colette Fehr 54:42

You're amazing. I think you have all the wisdom and you're very well positioned to do this. Thank you. All right, well, congrats on the book. Congrats on the book. Thank you. All right, I will reach out to you for sure. And we'll like pick up your cocktail.

Chelsea Leigh Trescott 54:59

Yes, cocktails, please. Before we go, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here, for listening with your whole heart, and for letting these conversations meet you wherever you are. If this episode resonated, the simplest way you can support the podcast is by sharing it with someone you love, or someone who might need it more than they realize. You can also leave a review, which does wonders, wherever you're listening. It really does help this show find the people it's meant for. And if something stirred in you while you're listening, I'd love to hear from you. You can write me directly at Chelsea C H E L S E A at breakupward.com B-R E A K U P W A R D dot com. Or come find me on Instagram where I have been posting more at Thank You Heartbreak. Until next time, keep choosing honesty, keep choosing softness, and keep breaking upward.