Masterclass on Trademarks with Trademark Angel's CEO Anita Mar

Join the conversation with Anita Mar, the remarkable CEO of Trademark Angel, as she shares her captivating journey from Israel to the helm of a leading trademark service company. With 25 years of rich experience, Anita offers a treasure trove of knowledge on the essentials of trademarks for e-commerce sellers, the power of brand identity, and the nuances of navigating Amazon's Brand Registry. Her insights are an invaluable compass for any entrepreneur steering their brand through the bustling marketplace of online retail.

Unlock the secrets to choosing a standout trademark name, understanding the importance of category selection, and avoiding the pitfalls of legal disputes with similar brands. Our chat with Anita illuminates the complexities of the trademark registration process and offers strategic advice on how to expedite your brand registry. The challenges of opposition periods and the benefits of filing for a trademark in various regions are demystified, equipping listeners with the savvy needed to protect their brand on a global scale.

Anita's expertise isn't all we unpack; we also explore the unique value Trademark Angel brings to the table. The company's commitment to client success, comprehensive services, and conservative approach ensures a high chance of registrability for your trademark. By the end of our session, you'll know exactly how to reach out to Trademark Angel to secure the trademark your brand deserves and be armed with entrepreneurial wisdom that goes beyond the trademark talk.

How can the guests contact?  website, email, social?

https://trademarkangel.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/anitamar/

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The Digital Revolution Podcast
Welcome to The Digital Revolution Podcast, where marketing experts share their expertise.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:41

Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a show for anyone who wants to be their own boss. If you sit in a cubicle every day and know you are capable of more, then join us. This show will help you build a business and grow your passive income streams in just a few short hours per day. And now your host serial entrepreneurs David Shomer and Ken Wilson.

Speaker 2: 1:06

Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast. On today's episode, we have the privilege to interview Anita Marr. Anita is a registered trademark agent and CEO of Trademark Angel. Anita has 25 years of experience working with trademarks. In 2017, Anita founded Trademark Angel and now has a staff of over 20 employees who provide trademark services in the US as well as internationally. Trademark Angel's mission is to make trademarking affordable for everyone, including startups, without compromising quality. Welcome to the show, Anita.

Speaker 3: 1:35

Thank you. Hello Ken, and hello David. I know you're not here, but hello anyway. Yes, when you mentioned 25 years, yeah, for a moment I felt very sad because it's a lot of years really doing pretty much the same thing. But I don't think that it's been fun and it's very exciting industry, very exciting field. I love what I do. So, yeah, I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have. I've been running Trademark Angel for six years now, so it's been six and a half years.

Speaker 2: 2:04

When you say 25 years, I feel that an experience. You know that's how you get to be an expert. It's just doing something for so long and so now you're an expert at that, so that's a really good thing.

Speaker 3: 2:14

I think it was just a coincidence really, because I didn't plan to work in trademarks. It was just a coincidence. But it was a lucky coincidence because I don't know what else I would rather do.

Speaker 2: 2:25

So, speaking on that, can you share with the audience kind of a little bit about your background and your journey into becoming an expert with trademarks?

Speaker 3: 2:33

I actually started working as a trademark prodigal when I lived in Israel, found an ad in a newspaper that, like a US trademark attorney was looking for a trademark prodigal, and at that time I didn't know what attorney meant or what trademark meant. So I looked it up and quickly applied Call means that can you come for an interview. And I said when? And he said like in an hour, and I lived in a different city. So I quickly hopped on a plane or not on a plane, on a train, and I came. He just hired me on the spot because his current prodigal decided to go to the US. He had no one. So that's how it happened and ever since I just, I, just I just loved it because I was. While I was planning to become an economist, I finished. Well, I had a degree in economics, which is pretty useless because I didn't know how to apply it. So it was just a lucky coincidence. And after that I immigrated to Canada in 2004. And I was. I worked in a large law firm. I worked there for seven years and then I set for the trademark agent exam in 2007. And then I got the highest mark in Canada in the trademark agent exam because I overstated, I was so afraid I would fail. I started for two years nonstop, pretty much knew everything, all the case law, all the rules. Yeah, it was great. But then, of course, you, you forget the details, like exact details. But well, the framework stays with you. But yes, it's been fun and I left this big company. When I had my second baby, I went to the mudleaf and then I found a job online well, not online, but with a small company and I worked from home. And when I had my third baby, I decided it was time to open my own company because I could do that. I was just, I just knew this extra push and I think my last baby provided that. I guess I wasn't afraid anymore, because before I was afraid it wouldn't work, that I wouldn't succeed. It's just too scary. Like, where will I find clients? What if it doesn't work? What if I have no one to ask? But it did work out, fortunately.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Yes, it did. And now you have a staff of over 20 employees and you guys are guys and girls and you guys are providing trademark services all over the world, which is which is really impressive. So, anita, the listeners to the show, we have advanced sellers in e-commerce, we have some intermediate sellers. We also have some some people listening that they want to start a business, but they they haven't yet and they're just kind of researching and listening and following along. And so, to kick off the show, can you give the listeners kind of an overview on IP basically you know, trademarks, copyright and patents and kind of maybe a 30 second snapshot on each and what is right for e-commerce sellers to focus on out of those?

Speaker 3: 5:01

Yeah. So basically all three of them are like parts of intellectual poverty. But people get them confused all the time. Like we get a call from a client oh, can I trademark my copyright or can I partner my trademark? And my brain just explodes when I hear that. But yeah, people just get confused. So basically, a trademark is the same as a brand. So that's like what you call your brand, basically the name for your product or your service. Sometimes it's the same as your company name. So this is where also, people get confused. They don't understand if it's the same as the company name or different. The company name can be your brand, it can be your trademark if it's what you put on your products when you sell your products. So basically, a trademark is a shortcut to your products without having to remember your company name, because your company name may have a Td or limited, global like whatever at the end. That makes the brand longer and more difficult to remember. A trademark is just a shortcut. That's how your customers find you, that's how they know who to buy from. So it's just a source indicator. In short, like your customers see your like, for example, your packaging or your product, and they know okay, that's the company that I like buy from. I will buy these products because I know them. A patent protects an invention, like, for example, a new engine, or it can protect an improvement to an existing invention. Most patents nowadays are improvements of existing inventions. Even Thomas Edison's most famous invention of a light bulb wasn't an original invention, but it was rather an improvement of an existing light bulb. So most of the patents today are just improvements to what already exists. Copyrights protect original literally or artistic works like, for example, songs, music, plays, books, forum drafts. That's important for Amazon sellers. Copyrights and patents expire, so they don't last, but the protection doesn't last forever. For example, patents only last for 20 years and after that anyone can use the invention. Copyright lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years after death. In Canada last 50 years. But trademarks do not expire. That's the cool thing about them. The longer you own your trademark, the more valuable it becomes. How much is Coca-Cola worth? We don't know. That's pretty much all about the name. It's all about the goodwill. So the longer it is. The longer you keep your trademark, the more it costs and you can renew it forever. So every 10 years you renew your trademark and you have it, it will not expire. So that's basically the difference, in short, about them.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Thanks for explaining those and yeah, I did not know the copyrights not expiring the trademarks. You can kind of renew them and, yeah, they gain value over time because the longer you hold them, the more brand recognition you have. So that's pretty cool, along with the theme of we have some advanced sellers, intermediate sellers and some sellers that are just getting started or thinking about starting. Amazon is in the US is, I believe it's 80% of all e-commerce is done on Amazon, and so Amazon has a program called Amazon Brand Registry that protects sellers and it gives sellers access to a lot of other features and functions within Amazon, and so there's a piece of this that you need a trademark to get in there, and so can you kind of explain the Amazon Brand Registry and how that trademark, how to get a trademark, and do you work with Amazon and that program?

Speaker 3: 8:09

Yes, yes yes, we actually work a lot with Amazon sellers. Both the clients sell on Amazon or Shopify Walmart. So, just like Trademarks Office has their own database or file trademarks and registered trademarks, amazon also has their own database where you can enroll if you file a trademark. So if you file a trademark, like, for example, in the US or in another country, you can enroll in Amazon's Brand Registry. So it's basically it's just like an internal database of brands that they recognize for their own purposes and once you enroll in Amazon's Brand Registry you get like a few perks. I think right now it's almost a prerequisite. You can sell without having access to Brand Registry. Sorry, I think my kids were six. I think I'm catching a little bit.

Speaker 2: 8:54

Yeah, no worries.

Speaker 3: 8:54

Yeah, what it gives you. I think the most important thing is what you get is you get access to your own online store so you can have your own store. So when people click on the brand name, so it says brand and colon and the name of brand, you click there and you go to a store where you can see the seller's other product. If there is no Brand Registry, when you click on brand you go to like a collection of random listings from other sellers. So you can be, you can go somewhere else and shop and buy from somebody else. But if you're in the Brand Registry, you'll have your own store that you can customize. You can make it pretty For each individual listing you can also have. You can add videos you can like, include additional bullet points. You can include additional photographs. The Brand Registry you can have access to Brand Registry with a file trademark. So when you file your trademark in the US, you can get access to the Brand Registry. When your trademark is fully registered, you will be able to remove hijackers. So you get additional benefits. So you can report the violations. So if there is a hijack on your listing and you can remove them. But you don't have this benefit after, just after filing, because the trade nox office has not has not checked you yet, so you just apply it. It's just a file trademark. A lot of people get confused and they say, oh, I just need Brand Registry. But like, do you need access to the Brand Registry or do you want to have the ability to remove hijackers, if there are any? Because it's a big problem, as you may as me may know, you get hijackers, they bring the price down, they get the buy box, lose sales and it's a huge problem. So if you decide to file your trademark after you got the hijack on your listing, it's too late because you will not be able to remove them until your trademark is registered. It's a really cool tool, but it's an even cooler tool when your trademark is registered. But even without registration, once you're in the Brand Registry, you will not have so many hijackers. Usually they check if, like a client or if the seller is in the Brand Registry by clicking on the name. If there is a store, means you're in the Brand Registry. If there is no store, okay, it's an easy catch, easy prey. You can attach to his listing, sell from this listing and they will not be able to remove you. Also, what you can also get access to with the registered trademark. You can get access to a transparency program that's like another program that Amazon has. It's a cool program and you can get access to this program with the registered trademark. So if you need access to a transparency program quickly, it's best to file in Germany, because Germany is extremely quick and you can get a trademark registered in two weeks. So they accept registered trademarks from any country for their transparency program. But because if you wait until your US trademark registered, it can be 18 months.

Speaker 2: 11:27

Yeah, there's a couple things that you mentioned there. Thanks for describing that program, and there's a couple things that you mentioned in there that I want to highlight. Filing for a trademark is different than having a registered trademark, and so filing for the trademark whether you use IP accelerator program with an Amazon, or however you get a trademark filed, it'll give you access to all the features that you kind of explained of Amazon, brand register, your storefront, all that brand portals, and then you can you have access to to look and see who's hijacking your listings. But until your trademark is registered, you cannot enforce it. They just because you need a registered number to enforce that policy, which is sometimes confusing to people. Hey, I've registered from a trademark and I can't get these hijackers off. Well, it has to be registered for them to do that, and so interesting stuff. So, moving on, let's say someone started a business last year. They have their business entity, they have their website, they've got everything set up and running. Should they still worry about a trademark even after they have their store, their store going?

Speaker 3: 12:22

That's another place for confusion. They'll often tell us oh, I have a domain name, or I have my company already registered like isn't that enough? I mean, do I still need to file? Like? What is a domain name really? It's just an address that one uses to visit a website. It's nothing more. A domain name registration is not the same as trademark registration. Registering a domain name alone doesn't give business owners like any trademark rights at all. Like in the US, canada, like many other countries, trademark rights are based on use and simply having a domain name doesn't mean that you actually use a trademark in the legal sense Because you have a domain. Even if you have a website that shows some products, unless you sell them, there are no trademark rights. Really, it may seem simple, but in the trademark sense, trademark use is more complicated than you think. So it's not just okay, I put the trademark name on the website. Is it enough? It's not enough. You actually need to sell your products to qualify for trademark use, at least in the US. If you register, like when you register a domain name like, you don't create trademark rights just by registering a domain name, because it doesn't connect to the specific products and services. As I said, it's just an address, a domain name itself doesn't sell any product and doesn't offer any services. So when you register a business name or a company name like that give you trademark rights? No, because the business name is simply that. It's just the name. It's just the name. It's a way to identify a business go like an entity, like an individual or doing business as and in the US, the business name is limited to the state. The business name doesn't need to be different from business names in other states. But when you file a trademark, it's federal In the US, it's also federal in Canada, so it's not limited to a particular state or province. So what's interesting is you can register your like corporation, llc, like on checks are done and you may think that it's safe to trademark then if you've been checked but actually those databases don't talk. I mean the corporate database and the trademark's office database. They're completely separate and they're not linked to each other. You may have incorporated and you may have thought about the name that you like and you haven't incorporated. And then you come to us, you want to register that name as a trademark and we check and it may not be available. So this is where it's best to maybe either do it simultaneously or maybe first do the clearance check, clearance search for a trademark name in the trademark's office database and then register that name as the company name, if that's what you want. If you want the trademark name or the corporation name, llc name to be the same or otherwise, you may end up with different names. I mean, it's not a problem really, but some people are really sad on having the same name, so the corporation, domain and trademark, and it's best if it's the same really.

Speaker 2: 15:40

I like simple, I like keeping everything simple and all the same. That kind of brings me into the next question is what is your recommendation of when to file a trademark? Because you kind of just hit on it a little bit. About the name, the databases don't talk. That was important, right. And so registering your business name and the trademark, those databases don't talk. And so are you recommending that owners file for the trademark about the same time they file for their business name, or yes.

Speaker 3: 16:06

So that's a good question. I mean, there is a point when it's too early to file and there is a point when it may be too late to file. I mean, ideally you should file for trademark registration as soon as you have, as soon as you have realized that this name is important to you and that you don't want anyone else to steal it. Many companies decide to see how the business is going to go. They don't want to file immediately, they want to just wait and see and, as a result, they lose time because by the time they decide to trademark their brand, a few years later, somebody else already did and it may be too late Because there is no legal requirement for you to file a trademark. But it does make sense to do so. Yes, ideally the sequence should be like this you cap a few names that you like, you go to name check name, then chkcom, and you check to make sure the social media names available, like Facebook, youtube, twitter, instagram, like whatever else you may need, take those names immediately and then you check the domain name to make sure it's available. If you see it's available, you buy it. I mean, it's really cheap, so get it immediately, don't wait. Because what I noticed is when you check a certain domain name and you don't buy it, sometimes it's taken by somebody else. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but it does happen and then you should check the trademark's office database so we can check it. I mean, we can check it for free if it's available. So pretty much you know, okay, it's good, and then you can incorporate. So you check the corporate database, so they will check it for you, and then you incorporate and then immediately you file a trademark, but you'll already have the social media and you have the domain name, because if you wait to buy the domain name until you file the trademark, it may be too late because domain name is really cheap. So you should get it, like immediately, and the social media handles, though those are free, so get them immediately. And that what I also wanted to notice. It may be too early to file a trademark. It's too early to file a trademark if you don't know, if you don't have a business plan, if you don't know what you're going to sell. So we're talking about Amazon sellers. If you decided, okay, I'm going to sell an Amazon, but you haven't done your product research, you don't know what you're going to sell. I mean I guess that's the most important question what you're going to sell. What is that product? That will bring you like loss of sales and you will become rich very quickly and sometimes that takes months to research. So until you know what you're going to sell, you can't really file a trademark, because you cannot file for whole products or like garden products. That's like too vague. It's not clear that trademark's office will not accept that. So we need to be specific, like what are we filing for? Are those like pizza cutters? Are those plates? Are they like I don't know something for the dogs, like dog niches, for example? Are they like toys, cosmetic? So you need to identify your product and you need to be sure that that's the product you're going to sell a year later. Because if you change your mind and we filed for, for example, dog toys and later you decided that you're going to sell wing chimes, for example you cannot switch the product in the trademark application. So once you file you cannot add products, you cannot switch them, you can only remove them. So it's important to do your research first and know product you're going to sell. I mean, of course you don't have to sell it yet, but you need to know that that's what I'm going to sell. Okay, three months later, six months later, a year later, and stick with that decision.

Speaker 2: 19:12

So a couple of things I'd like to hit on there and the process. So domain name, social media handles, and then trademark, and then also, but before you can file the trademark you had mentioned, you need to know what you're selling, because when you file the trademark, it goes for a specific category or product type, which you'll need to know prior, and it needs to be preferably. You either have already purchased inventory or you're deep into that. You're not in the decision mode because if you switch it, then the trademark that's filed for a specific category say wing chimes you know a month later you changed it to washer and dryers and it's not going to work out, and so that's a very important point. You should already know what you're selling, or maybe even have someone order or something before filing that.

Speaker 3: 19:56

So yes, yes, because in the US your trademark will not fully register until you can prove that you sell those products in the US under your trademark name. So the trademark name has to be on the products themselves or on the packaging. You need to do your product research and identify the products that you know you're going to sell, because without that we can't file. So we cannot file a trademark in advance with no like it's called a trademark class or like a specific product with no products and add them later. So we cannot file an umbrella trademark. People often come to us I want an umbrella trademark. It doesn't work like this. There is no such thing really. Trademark is always tied to specific products or services. We can't just file without any products listed or services listed.

Speaker 2: 20:36

And a little bit deeper on this one, because I ran into this before and say you have, because there's all types of classes of products. I know in the US I'm not sure about Canada or other countries but there's all types of classes or categories. Okay, so they're the same. And so if you had to say the example Coca-Cola will just use that Coca-Cola likely has the trademark or drinks some kind of a drink for that trademark for Coca-Cola. But maybe someone that wants to sell pants or blouses can get a trademark for Coca-Cola branded in another category and so there could be different categories. I know I'm kind of butchering this, but like there could be different trademarks for a different you know the same name and a different category owned by a different company. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3: 21:16

Yes, but Coca-Cola has trademarks for pretty much every class. They're fairly high, surprising, and yet yeah. So what you mentioned is possible for regular trademarks. So as long as there is no confusion, if the fields do not overlap, you can file the same trademark for completely different products. But when it comes to famous trademarks it's a little bit different. They will not allow you pretty much, even if the trademark's office is okay with that, the company itself will object because they have lots of money and they will not allow anyone else to dilute their brand. So they will not allow you to file Coca-Cola for like I don't know, pet products or like anything really. You will hear from them very quickly Immediately after you filed your trademark I would say within a week you will get a cease and desist letter or like a demand letter asking you to never launch your you know products under this trademark and immediately withdraw your trademark.

Speaker 2: 22:03

So you bring up a good point that I wanted. I want to touch on it a little bit so just to kind of smooth that over. If your brand is XYZ, an unknown brand, and they sell socks and they have a trademark to sell apparel, you could go and get that trademark for XYZ. Or potentially you could file for an XYZ trademark to sell soccer balls, because it's in a completely different category and the other brand is a small company. They're not going to object to it because it costs money. And so there's lots of different, I guess, categories or areas that you can follow the same trade, the same trademark name for different categories. I'm kind of glad I use Coca-Cola because I've actually ran into this before and it was a huge headache with one of my trademarks. A few years back I filed for a trademark and there was a large company that owned a similar trademark and I got a letter back that said we're objecting to this because it's too close to ours and so when that? I'm sure that happens quite a bit, depending on what space you're in. You know, if you hire a company like trademark Angel, they'll do research and tell you hey, you might get objected to this, this and this based on what we see in the search, and so that's always something that I recommend to new sellers that do not go and do this on your own, because you can get into a huge storm of legal trouble and it just costs a lot of money, and so they definitely want to do it. A search first to see what who else is in that space. If there are large companies, they monitor the database of registrations, and when they see something that pops up that's similar to theirs, they're going to object to it, and you, you're up against a large company with a lot of money.

Speaker 3: 23:31

Even if you intentionally misspell Coca-Cola, if you spell it with K or you put double L, it will not remove the problem. So you will still get a cease and desist letter because it's confusingly similar. It's similar, it doesn't need to be identical. Many people are mistaken. They think if they changed one letter or misspelled it somehow they removed the problem altogether. But no, it's still a problem.

Speaker 2: 23:53

And you know, I think, a lot of larger companies they're protecting their IP because they don't want a smaller company kind of piggybacking on their branding that they've paid for and they've built over the years, and so that's how they're protecting it. So just be cautious of that. And so the next question I have is something that I think is asked you probably, your team probably gets this all the time and it's how long does a trademark take from when you file it till it's registered? Maybe we can I know, I know your company handles trademarks all over the world. Maybe we can cover US, Canada and Europe, just to kind of keep.

Speaker 3: 24:25

Let's start with the quickest. It's Germany. Actually, it takes two weeks to two months to register a trademark in Germany and it works for Amazon. Well, it works for Brent by the street. A German trademark will not work for Amazoncom hijacker removal, but it will work for Amazoncom Brent by the street, but it will work for transparency. So in the UK and in the European Union it takes around four months to register. In the US it takes 18 to 20 months right now, and in Canada it takes around 42 months to register a trademark 42 months. So it's yes. North America is unfortunately not very quick. Mexico is quicker, though around a year.

Speaker 2: 25:01

One follow-up question on that and for Germany, that's surprising me Two to four weeks to get a registered trademark. Now will that registered trademark work for EU brand registry? To kick off hijackers?

Speaker 3: 25:14

No well, I don't think there is like Amazoneu. I think it's for every country. It's all in France, all Italy. So it will work for Amazonde, for the German Amazon. It will work to remove hijackers, yes, but it will not allow you to remove hijackers in France, uk, us. So Amazoncom it's the US Amazon and Amazonca is the Canadian one. So it will not work for that. But it will allow you to get into brand registry. Brand registry is single for all countries.

Speaker 2: 25:40

One trademark anywhere in the world will unlock brand registry for all Amazon marketplaces.

Speaker 3: 25:45

So if you just need brand registry and nothing else, or if you need access to transparency again it's a cool program Then Germany is the quickest way. I wanted to just explain another thing about Germany, why it's so quick, I mean how is it? possible Two weeks. So I mean Germans are very clever people. I mean they have a separate line. So if you pay an extra fee you get accelerated examination. So they put you in front of the line and they examine your trademark very quickly. You get the registration number Two weeks later even like a week sometimes. And then what happens Then? Your trademark, in all countries, your trademark, is published for opposition purposes before registration. In the US it's published before registration. It takes 30 days where any company may object to registration of your trademark. So Coca-Cola will object during the time period that you file for Coca-Cola with K. In Canada it's two months. In Germany it's actually three months. But that period of potential opposition happens after registration. So they register your trademark first, they give you the registration number and then they publish your trademark. If there are any oppositions and you decide not to defend your trademark, then it's removed from at least the registered trademarks. But you're already in the brand registry. Amazon will not check again, so it's very safe. I mean they never check. I don't think Amazon knows a registered trademark can be removed. Well, let's hope they are not watching this.

Speaker 2: 26:59

But when someone close your ears, yeah, well, you just told them no. So that might be a kind of a trick for any new sellers that want to get into brand registry. In the US you can do that within two to four weeks in Germany and so, or it gets published much, much faster. So that's interesting. And so just to kind of clear up everything we've talked about one trademark anywhere in the world will unlock brand registry and all Amazon marketplaces, but you have to have a registered trademark in that country to enforce your trademark and get hijackers off.

Speaker 3: 27:27

When it's useful to file in Germany is if you cannot change your trademark name but you know your trademark is not registrable in the US because there is a similar trademark and you cannot. So you cannot file in the US, you cannot register because you know your trademark will not go through and you cannot change your name. So then you can file in Germany. It's just like an alternative way to get access to the brand registry and get at least some protection, maybe with that, with the transparency program. One thing I wanted to mention that it's very important is sometimes we file Well, very, very seldom we file a trademark and our client cannot get in the brand registry. The Amazon gives you a reason like abusive behavior, or they give you a list of five or seven reasons that you have to guess which one it is. So then the name on Amazon is unique, so the brand name is unique. So it's possible that somebody may have obtained access to the brand registry with the same name, but maybe from another country. So that's what we figured. So you and there is no way to check this, unfortunately, because Amazon doesn't share, doesn't have the list of brand registry names, but that may be an option or the reason why you cannot get in the brand registry. It may be because this name is already taken. Yeah, so it's wise, when we check, we can check common countries like US, uk, european Union, germany and France just to make sure that this particular name is not registered anywhere. Because if you're aware that your name is registered in the country where Amazon has presence, then it's a good idea to most file for this name exactly.

Speaker 2: 29:00

Yeah, that's interesting. One follow up question on Europe. Now for me living in the US the EU sometimes that's kind of confusing to me on how all that works. Is there a trademark that covers all of the EU, all of the countries inside of the EU, and do you recommend sellers applying for that, or do you recommend going to each country? Or?

Speaker 3: 29:20

Actually there is a trademark that covers all 27 countries in European Union trademark. It takes about four months. Much better to file in the EU than in Germany, but it is more expensive. The government fees in the European Union are much higher than in Germany alone. But, yes, if you plan to sell in more than one country in the EU, it's much better to file in the EU. Eu doesn't cover the UK anymore, so that's one country that's not there, so you need to file in the UK separately.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Gotcha. So UK separately and then EU 27 countries. It sounds like it's a good bang for the buck if you're going to sell in multiple European countries. The next question is one that also is probably your team gets asked all the time. I hear it all the time, and so it's like whenever you go to file a trademark, there's kind of two, there's like a fork in the road. Do you want to trademark your name or do you want to trademark your logo, or both? And so what do you recommend for new sellers? Do they trademark their name of their brand or their logo, or both?

Speaker 3: 30:16

Yes. So if you plan to sell on Amazon, you definitely need to file a trademark that has some text in it. So it can be either the trademark name, for example, a trademark angel, just in words, you know, just write it out, trademark angel. Or it can be trademark angel plus some image, some picture. But it cannot be just the image alone without any text, because then it will not work for Amazon because they need to be able to read it and it needs to be written after your brand in letters, in text. So if you select one, it's always better to file for the wordmark just for the name, because it gives you most flexibility. You can use it with any logo in any font, in any case if you file it in all capital letters. Sometimes we recommend to file for a combined trademark, so the words plus the image together. It's called a combined trademark when your wordmark is difficult to get because there are some similar trademarks, when your budget is limited to one trademark but you really want to protect your logo as well and you can't really file two trademarks, ideally it's best to file two independent trademarks, one for the wordmark and one for the logo, because then you can use them independently. They're not connected to each other. You can use them in different places. If you file a combined trademark, you have to use it exactly as it was filed. You cannot separate it, so that's a limitation.

Speaker 2: 31:33

Okay. So yeah, a couple different. I guess it depends on what your brand name is and if your logo includes that or not, and so I guess, depending on each specific instance, so awesome. And so I guess the next one here is let's say, you have a new product and so actually one of my brands has a new product, I'm going to file a trademark on a specific product. Now, if a seller does that on a specific product and they also have a trademark on their brand, can any other sellers not use that product name? Or how does that work? Like a trademark on top of a trademark, a brand and then a product trademark?

Speaker 3: 32:10

Yeah, I guess you're asking about confusion in the marketplace. So the purpose of a trademark is to prevent confusion in the marketplace, to ensure that consumers know who's behind a certain product or service. So that's why, like, trademark protection only applies to certain products or services. So when you file a trademark, you put your trademark in a specific class. So there are 45 classes. A trademark gives you monopoly over specific product and services. So if you file a trademark for a specific product, you have protection for that product and basically for that class. For example, if we file for I don't know toys toys in class 28,. So no one can file a trademark in class 28 anymore. No one can file a similar trademark in class 28. Let's say you file a trademark work, clothing, clothing is in class 25. Question for you Can somebody file a similar trademark for bags, for example, bags in class 18. What do you think Can they?

Speaker 2: 33:03

know so in a different class. Yes, they can file one for a different class.

Speaker 3: 33:08

The class is not related. But bags and clothing are related because they go side by side. Usually they're sold next to each other. So it will be very difficult to register the same or very similar trademark for bags because those classes are related. So you get protection for related classes as well and those are called coordinated classes. And the same for jewelry, jewelry and watches and clothing. Usually it's very difficult to register a trademark for watches or jewelry if you have a trademark for clothing. So if products are related, if they're sold side by side, it's difficult. But if they're not related so let's say clothing had products, well, no problem here Baby toys and clothing I mean that's not related, but clothing and bags it's related, so that it may be a problem.

Speaker 2: 33:55

That was something I didn't know. I learned a lot of new stuff on this podcast. 45 classes and then that some classes correlating other classes, so you kind of get extra protection.

Speaker 3: 34:06

Yeah, for example, computer software that can be downloaded or like an electronic, that's downloadable. Computer software it's class nine, but software as a service it's class 42. But if you file a trademark in class nine, basically no one can file it the same trademark in class 42, because those are like coordinated classes, they're related, they go side by side really.

Speaker 2: 34:28

So there's, are there a lot of classes with overlap.

Speaker 3: 34:30

Yes, actually quite a few. So we always check, not just with this particular product, but for similar products as well and for like related classes. So when we check a trademark, we always check for related classes, whether you ask us or not.

Speaker 2: 34:42

Okay, now that's interesting. Yeah, that's something I did not know, so that's cool. Before we wrap up the podcast is or are there any questions that I should have asked you that I didn't that you want to anything you want to share with the audience?

Speaker 3: 34:53

Well, you can like what's basically what's the best way to file a trademark, maybe Like how you approach this. We did mention this briefly. So you should definitely do a proper trademark search first to make sure your trademark is registrable, and you should work with the trademark professional like us, or use a proper firm. I mean, don't try to save money and do it yourself or use like. I mean there are a lot of companies that basically sell you software that allows you to file your own trademark, but no one is checking your trademark, so don't use one of those.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Yeah, no, that's very good For all the listeners. You can go to the USPTO. You can kind of do basic searches on their databases. But I always recommend hiring someone that's like trademark angel to file your trademarks, because if you make a mistake on this it can cost you a lot of money down the road. When it doesn't work out or someone files an objection, you don't know how to handle that. There's so many things that can go wrong that you want someone helping you that has a lot of experience with this.

Speaker 3: 35:55

We offer a free trademark search anyway, in a free consultation and after you decide to proceed with us, we do comprehensive search and if your trademark is not registrable we can refund you the money. So it's free anyway. If it's unregisterable and if your trademark is not registered, you don't lose the money like we can file another trademark for free. So we work with you, ensure that your trademark is registered, because we're in the same boat. If we don't manage to register your trademark, we just repeat the process. So we don't want to do that. So that's why we only file for trademarks that are registrable. We are very, very conservative when it comes to assessment because we don't want to repeat the process. So we know that our clients invest a lot of time, a lot of money and when a trademark is not registered it's not just okay $1,000 lost. It's a lot of effort, lost time, lost inventories. So we understand how painful it can be. So we try not to file for trademarks that are low probability trademarks, that are not registrable. So we tell you in advance so we help you avoid those costly mistakes.

Speaker 2: 36:51

That's excellent, and I'll preface this last question here by Anita and I talked before the show and I have used Trademark Angel before and one of our brands to get a trademark in Canada and the process went wonderful. It was great experience. So I highly recommend Trademark Angel. And so, anita, question for you what separates Trademark Angel from other companies out there and why should the listeners choose Trademark Angel?

Speaker 3: 37:12

Yes, exactly as I said, we. Well, unlike many, many law firms, we're interested in registering your trademark with the least number of objections. There is a package that includes all responses. Basically, you pay one C and we handle everything. So we're interested in the least painful process for you, in the quickest process, in the process that results in the minimum objections, and also, if the trademark is refused, like we'll file another trademark for you and we don't charge you. So we are interested to file your trademark in one go, without repeating the process and without receiving any objections. So the quicker your trademark is registered, the better it is for us. And, as I said, we offer a free initial search, a free consultation. There are no strings attached. We don't charge for phone calls ever. Actually, we don't keep track, we don't count minutes. We don't bill you for hours or minutes. We don't do that. So it's basically flat fees. We're approachable. You can ask us any questions. We know how to work with Amazon sellers and what you need to get in the brand registry. We help you with that as well.

Speaker 2: 38:11

And then at the end of the show and then the show notes, we're going to have all the contacts and how to reach Anita and her team up. You're ready for a king and a trademark?

Speaker 3: 38:19

One thing to send discount if you mention, if they mention, your podcast, they will get 10% discount.

Speaker 2: 38:25

Excellent, you heard it right there 10% discount if you mentioned firing the man podcast. Thank you for that, anita, for all of our guests. We run them through the ringer. It's called the fire round. It's a series of four questions and it's rapid fire. Are you ready? All right, what is your favorite book?

Speaker 3: 38:40

Yes, so my favorite book is called the perfume, the story of a murderer. It's by Patrick Zuskin with a German author. It's great.

Speaker 2: 38:47

Awesome, that's a new one. I haven't heard of that one. I read it. Yeah, I'll put it on my list. What are your hobbies?

Speaker 3: 38:52

I like traveling and I like gardening and I like aquariums. I have like a huge tank, fish tank, 1000 liters 1000 liters.

Speaker 2: 38:59

That's big. Is it salt water?

Speaker 3: 39:01

No, it's regular, well, normal, normal water. I think salt water is the next one on the list.

Speaker 2: 39:07

Okay, that's awesome, that sounds fun. What is one thing that you do not miss about working for the man?

Speaker 3: 39:12

Yes, get undressed for the office. Putting my makeup on spending two hours on the train, yes, those are the three things I don't miss.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Okay, yeah, I agree. What do you think sets apart successful entrepreneurs from those who give up, fail or never get started?

Speaker 3: 39:28

Well, I actually strongly believe it's a business plan. It's thinking about all their potential problems you may have and having a B plan, thinking about potential failures or problems and coming up with a plan of how you, what will happen if they happen. So I think it's a business plan. And then, well, if you have a problem, just don't give up. Immediately Follow your business plan. I mean, remember that it could have happened, so do not give up, just try to continue. And I think that's what separates successful people.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Okay, I like it, have a backup plan and continue to go on. And so, anita, it was a pleasure having you on the podcast. I really want to say thanks for sharing all of your knowledge with trademarks with the audience. If someone in the audience is listening and they want to reach out to you or your team and get a trademark, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 3: 40:14

Well, go to our website, trademarksangelcom, and there is like a contact us button so you can call us, you can send us an email, you can chat or a website chat with us. You can find us on Facebook, it's pretty easy.

Speaker 2: 40:25

Excellent, you heard that and we'll have it all in the show notes. The links to trademarksangelcom and everything will be in the show notes, so if you're driving, just keep your eyes on the road. Excellent, well, thanks for listening. We'll tune in next week.

Speaker 3: 40:35

Thank you, thank you.