'7 Things to Do When You Lose Patience' Parenting Article Review

Continuing with the parenting brew, Dan and Mike lean yet again on a recipe from Jeremy Brown and Autism Parenting Magazine (link below). As was the case with the first two episodes of the season, the article provides a perfect blend of basic ingredients for cool, crisp and balanced parenting. This episode reviews all tips and strategies outlined in the article and expands to parenting in general, acknowledging that parents with autistic children may face unique situations well outlined by the author.

An easy brew for all to enjoy--crisp, clean and refreshing. Always analyze responsibly.
Article Link:
https://www.autismparentingmagazine.com/losing-patience-with-autistic-child/

AND--if you are ready to enjoy the benefits of Magic Mind and boost your brain performance, please use the following link and use the discount code ABAONTAP to receive 20% off your purchase, and 56% off a subscription.
https://www.magicmind.com/ABAONTAP

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tap. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01: 0:51

All right. Welcome back to yet another installment of ABA on Tap. Really, really good to be here. I am your co-host, Mike Rubio, along with Daniel Lowry. Mr. Dan, good to see you, sir. How are you?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06

Good to see you as well. Enjoying this lovely San Diego weather now that we finally got a little bit of time without rain and some more daylight.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15

The weather seems to get more beautiful that day. Daylight savings day here in San Diego, right? You got to say. My wife was saying the same thing. It's a beautiful sunny day. Still a little bit of a chill, nice little ocean breeze off the coast, but beautiful. DANNY

SPEAKER_00: 1:29

WARSHAY, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_00: 1:29

Living the dream,

SPEAKER_01: 1:30

brother. DANNY WARSHAY, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_01: 1:30

We're lucky to be here. DANNY WARSHAY, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_01: 1:32

Glad to be back. Continuing our quest in season five to bring more resources directly to parents that concurrently would be helpful to professionals during things like parent education sessions, circumstances like that where we can exchange very, very practical pointers, strategies about what parents can do to manage their own behavior, to try and manage their child's behavior during times of difficulty, to really incite the learning process at every time or opportunity reasonable. So we've got, we didn't plan this. I sort of, I have to apologize. I get a lot of things in my feed. And recently I started getting some things from Autism Parenting Magazine. And it just so happens that we're going to be highlighting Mr. Jeremy Brown yet again.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

Shout out to Mr. Brown. Thank you. And we'll be doing part three of our Jeremy Brown series today.

SPEAKER_01: 2:27

Part three of our Jeremy Brown series. We started with 11 things... not to do

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

yep

SPEAKER_01: 2:33

this is now seven things to do tell us a little bit more

SPEAKER_00: 2:37

yeah um i really appreciate the angle that he takes here because you you made a really good analogy um in one of our earlier episodes when you talked about how so often the kid will be doing a behavior and it upsets us and because of how it makes us feel we then make attributions and uh you know, relationships and then responses to the child based on our feelings. And the way that he, you know, he talks about this article being seven things to do when you lose patients with an autistic child. I just really like the way that he, again, puts it back on us and our feelings, our perception, and our responses to the situation.

SPEAKER_01: 3:15

So this could be useful for training purposes for new hires, say, registered behavior technicians. The idea that we, I like talking about this with everybody, we sort of have a privilege that I don't even enjoy myself as a parent sometimes to go in and spend two hours of undivided attention with a client. And it doesn't mean they don't try us. It doesn't mean that by the third, fourth client of the day, we're not a little bit outlasted or a little bit irritable. We've got personal things we're going home to. So these are also pointers, I think, that work out all around, that work out. And I like the way you put it. It's about what you're doing with your state of arousal, your state of alertness, how you're keeping your cool in terms of being one of the variables that then helps maintain cool all around. And that's to say that even in the face of a tantrum or so-called distress expression, If you're cool and calm, it can go a long way. It can go a long way. It doesn't always look good. The optics aren't always comfortable. People might sometimes say that if you're staying cool and calm, well, then you're not being the disciplinarian or the pushover. We're going to contradict that viewpoint vehemently today and really encourage everybody to keep their cool and their calm as they deal with these escalations.

SPEAKER_00: 4:33

Yes, I think it's very valuable that you bring up the fact that Every kid makes every parent lose their cool sometimes. I know you've said that with your child who, again, is neurotypical. Your wife experiences that sometimes with her child who's neurotypical. Every parent can relate to that about losing their cool with their kids. And then you throw in the ASD kind of variable with that. So again, 99% of what we're going to talk about in this podcast can be attributed or related to parents of any individual, but there is going to be some abnormalities or maybe some nuances when you throw in that ASD diagnosis that may make it either look a little bit different or be applied a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01: 5:12

The idea that what the author here might be talking about lasts a little bit longer, looks a little bit more animated or severe, feels a little bit more unnatural, a little bit more idiosyncratic, so you might have an average range of tantrum behavior under the dome This one's going to be on one of the tails here. It's very unique, to put it that way. And I think that it's important for us to remember that you and I love leveling the playing field. I think that is very exciting for us as ABA professionals to say, this is learning. This is learning theory. It applies to organisms, big foreheads or not. But the idea that we also want to... make sure that we're sensitive to the uniqueness of these situations. And I think that that's what the author is talking about as a parent, as well as a professional himself who explores these topics. So

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

without further ado, sir. Number one, soothe your child. He says, from my personal experience, my son will enter an autism meltdown whenever I lose patience with him. He starts yelling and swearing, and it's clear no one will be able to get through to him. From a young age, my wife and I implemented coping strategies to help him calm down and soothe himself. These are different for every child. The most effective for my child have been a few deep breaths with a five senses technique. Five things I can see, four things he can hear, three things he can touch, two things he can smell, and one thing he can taste. These techniques have helped us soothe him so we can discuss the scenario and my, so again his, response to the behavior and try to rectify the situation.

SPEAKER_01: 6:52

So, soothe your child. This person flies in the face of traditional ABA as I know it. I mean, this is like the biggest no-no. I've been doing this for a long time, so I credit the fields for evolving. But at the same time, the idea of blanket ignoring or

SPEAKER_00: 7:12

extinction.

SPEAKER_01: 7:14

We're going to need a blanket.

SPEAKER_00: 7:16

Good thing we have blankets in this recording studio.

SPEAKER_01: 7:19

So the idea that if you happen to be soothing your child... I guess it would be an attention function, and you happen to soothe your child, then you run the risk of reinforcing the escalated behavior by providing something soothing, which we're assuming is reinforcing. So the logic is not faulty. However, the application of this over time and maybe not soothing, especially younger children on the spectrum, based on maybe some of these idiosyncratic features of distress expression, something I know that you and I have talked about a long time, one of the really first tenets, I think, that you and I happened upon professionally where we were like, man, this can't be right. This kid just fell to the ground. And again, it was our misapplication at that time, too, but the idea that this kid just bumped her face and because the parents been so well trained to ignore these escalations based on their function, now a child's missing out on soothing where it could be very useful.

SPEAKER_00: 8:22

Yes. It goes back to the example I believe I've shared before. But when I was in the McDonald's Play Place and the parent was taking the kid away from the Play Place and the kid was having the huge tantrum, And the parent was soothing the kid. And this was early Dan days of ABA, and I was looking at the parent like, why are you soothing your kid? Your kid's tantruming. If your kid's not doing what you want them to do, don't respond until they do. And more nuanced again, Dan, with many years of experience, it's like, well, it always comes back to the function. We've got to look at the function. And that kid's function of the tantrum was tangible. The parent can do all the soothing that they need to do to get that kid to kind of calm down. And I think it's really important. We've taken a lot of things very literally in ABA and hopefully we are coming back to the more nuanced perspective of it's okay to soothe you know it's no different than if I step on your toe and you're like ow and then I'm like hey calm down or if I don't respond to you that's not going to help your situation of getting over the toe feel any bit better so if there's a way for me to help soothe you down to to a point where I can be like, hey, next time if I step on your toe, you can just let me know, man. I'm happy to help you out with that. A lot of times soothing can actually get us back to baseline quicker. so that we can present the desired behavior. Because again, in ABA, we're not reducing behavior, we're replacing behavior. So if our whole goal is to teach them a replacement behavior to respond to that, a lot of times the quicker we can de-escalate that situation and get them back down to baseline, the earlier we'll be able to teach that replacement behavior.

SPEAKER_01: 9:53

I remember discussing that early on and how much time we were wasting, instructional time, to use that phrase specifically, by waiting things out. And it's not to say that there isn't a time and place to wait things out, I think that when your child is escalated, because they're disappointed that they're being blocked from access, for example, to kind of go with the example you were using, It can be very challenging for us as parents. We can become frustrated. I already told you that I already told you no, and I'm going to tell you no again, and I'm going to get repetitive, but get frustrated at the fact that you're being repetitive. So there's a lot to manage in those situations, I think, to everybody's credit. And this is where the optics, this is where I mentioned for the first time in this episode, likely many other times, where the optics can get a little bit strange. I've used my example of the smoke alarm as you're cooking bacon on a Saturday morning, and it's sort of my most personal example. So the idea that I know that I'm walking into a situation where the smoke alarm is going to be ringing, and I need to stay as calm as possible, and then to the onlooker, say if I'm at the grocery store, to the onlooker, it's going to look like the smoke alarm is winning. And I need to be ready to maintain my cool and calm during that because I feel good about my strategy, right? And then to your point, it's okay for a child to be disappointed that they're leaving a play place. There's nothing wrong with that. Yet if we miss, if we're not careful, we'll overlook that nuance. Yep. And suddenly we're upset that the child's upset that they're leaving something enjoyable. Yep. Well, no, that's where we learn emotions and that's an opportunity to label emotions and I know you're disappointed and we're going to come back and I'd be sad too if I was leaving a place and it makes me sad that you're sad because I know you want to play but we've got to go and there's no way around that. And again, As I say all those things, I can say that nice and calm right now. The smoke alarm in my hypothetical example is diminishing the sound. It's going to turn off soon. That doesn't always happen that way in real life. So again, the optics can be difficult. It can be very challenging for one as a professional, especially as a parent with onlookers out in the community as your child is freaking out and everything you're doing calmly sort of gets thrown back in your face or you're facing rejection. That's a lot. It's a lot you have to endure. We agree with the author. This is the best way to do this. This is the best strategy to embody.

SPEAKER_00: 12:26

Yes, and your smoke alarm example, I just like it so much because in ABA, we look at the relationship between behavior and environment, and we say behavior is just a product of the environment. That's what the smoke alarm is doing. It's just reporting a change in the environment, no different than what a kid would be doing when they're escalating. So I just like that example so much. Just touching base on two more things that he says before I pass it to you, if you want to wrap this one up before we go. before moving to point number two. When he says he starts yelling and swearing, and it's clear no one will be able to get through him. I'm also a certified PROACT trainer, and I really like how PROACT has brought, their curriculum has really made salient the escalation and de-escalation continuums, and how as we escalate, blood leaves our prefrontal cortex and goes to our extremities, which means we rationalize less. So when any of us escalate, our prefrontal cortex, and our brain is working less optimally. So it's not him. People can't get through to him. It's any of us when we escalate. People can't get through to us because our brain is not working optimally. That blood that would normally be in our brain and helping it work optimally is now in our extremities. So that de-escalation continuum, the product is taught, and the inverse of cognition, I think is very visually appealing and provides a great representation of what he's explaining here. The last thing that he says when he talks about the deep breaths and the five senses technique, it absolutely is important that we work with individuals to teach them ways to regulate their own behavior. And grounding is super valuable. But at the end of the day, we need to spend just as much time focusing on our behavior than their behavior. So if we're teaching them to do deep breaths, we need to be finding ways to regulate their regulate our behavior in that situation. We have to be finding ways for us to do grounding techniques. So if we're talking about five things he can see, we should be thinking about five things we can see in that situation or ways for us to ground ourselves because at the end of the day, the behavior is what it is. It's how we interpret it and subsequently respond to it that's going to cause it to increase or decrease, which is the purpose of this article from Mr. Brown. So it's just much more or at least as important That we work on our behavior and our grounding and our deep breaths and our self-regulation as it is the child's.

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

Yeah, it would be, leave it up to us to take even a list of seven items and run out of time. And we're on our way to do that here. One thing I want to mention very quickly before we move on is I can see, and I want to make sure I do this to the full credit of the author, it happens to us during parent training situations, I can see a parent taking this article, reading the strategy, They try it with their child, and immediately their child's like, no, I don't want to count. I don't want to tell you what I smell. And then you're like, oh, the author was full of it. This didn't work. It's just awful. So I want to qualify that immediately. When we say soothe, people might have a vision of like, oh, I'm going to embrace my child and rub their back. Your child may want nothing to do with your tactile input in that moment. So soothe means help them recapture their breathing to reduce their heart rate, help them de-escalate. Back to your example of the escalation curve. If you've already passed threshold, then ride it out. Make sure you better, more than ever, keep your calm. Remove the energy. That's a phrase I know you take from ProAct and you run with it very nicely. Make sure that you're adding, you're going to add energy, you're adding the right kind of energy or the right amount of energy to just keep things safe. So soothing means a lot of different things. It doesn't just mean this yogic relaxation deep breathing, your child might be coming at you the entire time. You use a seawall example sometimes, and that's the one I like here. Yes, maybe your child's going to take your embrace. Sometimes you're just going to be that wall that's getting bashed a little bit, and I don't mean that literally, but you need to be strong enough to take everything so your child's going, no, get away from me. I understand. Okay. You want me to sit quietly? I'm just here if you need help. I'm watching. I'm moving around. I'm monitoring. Again, I'm removing energy or adding energy to make sure that we neutralize. And that's maybe a different way to look at soothing. So I don't want anybody to be discouraged if they take the author's amazing little technique here, which is awesome the way he visualized this and sort of this mindfulness, use all your senses in the moment to ground yourself. And I'm glad it works for him. May not work for everybody else out there, but understand the conceptual framework of what the author is doing here. Some kids might want to be embraced. Some kids might want you to just leave them alone, and give them space as you sit there and wait and watch and monitor.

SPEAKER_00: 17:14

That's a great point. Number two, apologize and take responsibility. This is one of the most important steps you can take. Apologizing after your child lost patience can help your child learn the importance of accountability. A good parent can admit when they are wrong, and even if the child's actions pushed you to that point, your reaction when you lost your cool was wrong. Taking responsibility helps your child understand their feelings once you've snapped at them. They may be feeling upset, angry, or frustrated and may be struggling to cope with how you reacted. Apologizing and taking responsibility opens up avenues and communication and fosters a healthy relationship between parent and child. So two things I want to just touch on that, and then I'll pass it right over to you, Mike. Okay. One is that he does a really good job of kind of highlighting that fundamental attribution error, right? How when we lose our cool, we're justified. But when other people lose their cool, it's a personality trait or they need to not do it. When someone cuts us off in traffic, they're an a-hole and we need to honk at them and they saw us and they were being so disrespectful. But when we cut someone else off in traffic, we were just late and we needed to get in real quick. So the justification for our response and our losing cool, I see this happening with parents all the time. Well, if they wouldn't have just done this, I wouldn't have lost my cool. Well, yeah, if you wouldn't have taken the iPad, they wouldn't have lost their cool. So there's always a justification depending on the side that you sit on. And the second thing that I wanted to just touch base on that, and then I'll pass it right over to you, Mike, is this is something that I talk so often about in parent groups. is parents, it's really modeling, right? Your kids might not always be listening to what you're saying, but they're always watching, and they're always, you know, they're very perceptive. So modeling, it's okay to lose your cool, because that's a big piece of self-efficacy. A lot of the kids that we work with lose their cool, and then that becomes some part of their self-image of, I can't control my behavior. Everyone around me, they can control their behavior, and it's really easy, but I can't control my behavior. And it's important as a parent to be like, you know what, sometimes as a parent, I didn't control my behavior in that situation, and As a result, I'm going to apologize to you, and I'm going to try to do better next time. And I think that really helps individuals and kids build their self-efficacy and realize it's not them that is broken and can't control their behavior versus the parents. It's everyone at times can control their behavior.

SPEAKER_01: 19:38

I'm going to jump right off on the modeling piece there. One of the things... Again, there's a time and a place for it, but I think it's often... One of the actions that we often do in ABA that has a good logic to it but makes me cringe most of the time is, hey, Johnny, now go apologize to Billy. It doesn't mean anything to you. You're saying an empty sorry. We haven't set up the situation for any sort of empathic referencing or anything like that. But let's run through these motions. Again, there's a time and a place. I'm not saying it's incorrect, but I think the author adds something the more important antecedent to that action, which is you as the adult, modeling. And really, it's a chance to just follow up on what you were saying, Dan, to label the emotions, to really tact, if you will. Share the experience with your child that I lost my cool. I used a tone of voice that I asked you not to use. And now I'm telling you that that wasn't OK. Let me label my emotions for you. Let me explain to you why my face looked the way it did, why my voice hit the volume it did. And to a later point on the author's list here, and something that I like to follow up on as we talk to parents together, is we love our 80-20 mastery rule. And maybe in this case, it's 90-10. And that's to say that even as a parent myself, I'm going to allow myself, I'm going to expect myself to spend within 10% to 20% of my time with my kids losing my cool a little bit. Maybe not to an extreme, you know, complete be-all, end-all scolding, but the idea that in those 10% to 20%, I'm also letting them know that I can get frustrated. Again, back to all the things that you were mentioning in the points you were making, I think that's a very important lesson. We hold them to a certain standard, our kids, all of our kids, and I think that sometimes the clients that we work with, the patients we work with, We often scrutinize to a more stringent standard. Of course. And in this case, we're correcting them. And in this case, nothing better than to correct oneself before expecting our kids or our patients to do so.

SPEAKER_00: 21:45

I think a lot of that correction and scrutinization to a higher standard comes from two facts. One is that a lot of the practitioners don't have kids of their own. It's funny. I was hanging out with some of our practitioners that do have kids. And then one staff member recently rejoined our team from maternity leave, and she He's like, wow, I just have so much better appreciation as a parent. But if you're not, all you're doing is trying to hit goals. And it almost loses the humanity. Whereas the parents and the more that we can bring that in, I think is super, super important. Moving on, which gets right in to number three, which is I think you're in one of you're in my biggest goals in ABA is to bring the humanity back into ABA. It says, remind your child that you still love them. Thank you. and that you love them despite both of your behaviors. So again, just bringing that humanity back into ABA, that love back in. But I'm going to pass this one to you, Mike. I think both as a parent, I think you can reflect and give much more valuable perspective than I can. Because I like a lot of my kids, but you have kids that you actually love. I'm not sure

SPEAKER_01: 23:15

if I look nervous about it, and that's why you're passing it to me, if I look poised and ready. I have a phrase, and I'm certainly not the person that invented this phrase. I borrowed this from... Another parent, at a grandparent level, and that is to say, I love you. I don't like what you're doing right

SPEAKER_00: 23:33

now. I

SPEAKER_01: 23:34

love that phrase. But I love you. I love you no matter what. And I'll go back to the idea of soothing. This now with my three-year-old. My three-year-old's got a very strong temperament. She's certainly a very affectionate, very sweet child. But when she's upset, she is upset. And I'll go back to the idea of soothing, where maybe your child wants nothing to do with you. And in those moments where I'll say, well, Genevieve, I know that you're upset, but I love you. And she'll come back with, no, you don't. No, you don't love me. And I'm saying that pretty mildly. I mean, for a three-year-old, she can really reject and be like, nope. And in that moment, I have to acknowledge that, right? In her little three-year-old brain, that's what she's feeling. She doesn't want to hear that from me. And in many ways, then I'm doing it for her, but I'm also doing it for myself back to staying cool and calm, right? The idea that, yeah, the notion that I'm going to be saying, I love you! You Maybe some strange rom-com. I love you louder. Right. Some sort of strange rom-com scene in the rain. That's not what we're going for here. But all these things that, as we pile them up or compile them, all these things that the author is doing or that he's suggesting, all these strategies, again, are very nicely embedded and build upon one another and really allow you to stay cool as you reflect. So the idea that you're going to think about apologizing and acknowledging your own actions, that's goes a long way towards staying cool. The idea that you're going to remember your unconditional love for your child as you also experience the fact that you don't like one bit what they're doing in that moment and that you're fed up and you've had it. But again, we're asking the impossible. We're asking people to, you know, you're carrying a two-ton crate of eggs. You can't crack one kind of thing. And it is. It's difficult. And we're talking about a 10% to 20% margin of error, which is very challenging. Again, I think the author does a really good job of sort of embedding these strategies strategies starting with stay cool and then everything else that goes that followed thus far is about how to stay cool.

SPEAKER_00: 25:29

So yeah, I really, really like that phrase. I know you've mentioned it multiple times. Two phrases, there are two kind of sayings that you say a lot that I've used a lot in my parent groups. One is the, I love you. I don't love the behaviors that you're doing right now, but I love you. And the second one is when parents are like, well, why do my kids treat me differently than they treat the therapist? And how you're like, well, because they know you love them unconditionally. And I think that's so important. And ABA is the science of behavior. And a lot of it was developed in labs with rats and pigeons and things like that. Did Skinner love his rats and pigeons? No. A lot of it is kind of that colder science, the science science of behavior and ABA a lot of times we do boil people down to the sum of their behaviors and that can be very scientific that can be very inhumane for lack of a better term but as we transfer it from the lab to the living room really bringing that humanity and that love back into the fray and as a therapist we don't need to love the clients but we definitely don't want to teach the parents to not love their kids because of their behaviors.

SPEAKER_01: 26:36

It's interesting I don't want to get too philosophical here, but the fact that we had sort of a demographic of people in our society at one point in time that presented or we observed as a little bit devoid of emotion ends up being a science that takes that approach toward behavior. And then now we're sort of circling back to this idea of the more social aspects of human behavior, the socialization, the warmth, the empathy, the things that you're now kind of talking about that are very difficult for us to quantify In fact, I don't know how you do quantify those things in behavior, but it is an interesting combination of those facets, those tenets that we're now bringing together. And yeah, it had to start with something very minimalistic, very parsimonious to say, hey, look, there's this population of kids and we're largely institutionalizing them by the time they hit adolescence. And there's a lot of other dynamic change in our society that says we should probably stop doing that. And then now we've got this sort of cold surgical science that shines light on the humanity of you know, a sector of our society we've kind of written off. Anyway, I got

SPEAKER_00: 27:45

a little philosophic there anyway. Just expanding on that briefly as we talk about, you know, one of the big things is with law enforcement and things like that and how certain things are prosecuted or not. You know, we talk about behaviors that are clearly undesired, like, you know, robbing stores or things like that. But over the last maybe five years, there has been more of a discussion of why are these people doing it? Yes, the behavior needs to stop, but why are they doing it? Can we be compassionate to why somebody may be in a situation to do that. On the flip side, can we also be compassionate to the store owner who's now losing merchandise and he also has families to feed? So again, yes, the behavior is bad. The behavior needs to stop. I absolutely understand that. But the compassion to all sides of the situation will provide a much more kind of holistic and nuanced interpretation of that.

SPEAKER_01: 28:32

The so-called circumstantial approach to behavior that I know I like to investigate, I like to explore, and that's what we just did at that point in time

SPEAKER_00: 28:41

Yes. With that, you know, so often we were so just focused on the behavior. But if your child's doing a behavior that you don't like, a meltdown, and you say, you know what, I love you in this situation. That's not going to hurt anything. Your child's not going to reinforce the behavior and make them do it every single time. The more that as a parent you can bring love back into the situation and let your child know that they're loved, that will have a net benefit.

SPEAKER_01: 29:08

No, I agree. I agree 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 29:10

Speaking of which, as we transition from reminding your child that you're loved, moving to giving your child a chance to express how they feel, let's talk about something that we love and makes us feel a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01: 29:23

Oh, well, thank you, sir. Talking about hitting my flow state, the magic, the magic that I've needed lately. We are super busy these days, Mr. Dan, all sorts of project work, all sorts of innovation and exploration with our transition to our new employer. I got to tell you, on some days, right around 2 o'clock in the afternoon, I'm just not sure if my cognition is where it needs to be. And it's right around that time that I don't reach for coffee any longer. I used to get jittery, and my stomach would feel a little bit weird. But I've got this little green bottle here. The magic and magic of mine. It was green. It's empty on your desk right now. It's empty now. That's right. It's not green anymore, but it was nice and cool from my refrigerator. Nice little two-ounce shot. I had my morning coffee, my special brew. Drank it throughout the morning and a couple hours before we started recording. In fact, since Friday. I like to do it about three days in a row. I grab this little two-ounce shot. I shake it. Take a deep breath in. I drink it. And I feel the resurgence immediately in my brain. Nice, nice, pure, natural ingredients that I can even trust to give to my teenagers. So I'm going to do a little quiz here because I know you're prepared for me.

SPEAKER_00: 30:33

Hopefully you say the ingredients because you have the Stanford vocabulary.

SPEAKER_01: 30:37

I don't know if I'm going to say these right, but I'm going to go with a little bacopa monieri.

SPEAKER_00: 30:42

Which is used to improve memory, insomnia. It's also beneficial for individuals that may have epilepsy or seizures. And it's also an anxiolytic.

SPEAKER_01: 30:51

So keep you nice and cool. Absolutely. Calms the anxiety. And that's like a plant, like a flowering plant?

SPEAKER_00: 30:57

I believe so. I believe so. But, you know, anxiety is a big thing, especially people talking about it coming out of COVID. So the more we can do to get us in the best flow state to be productive, the better off we'll be.

SPEAKER_01: 31:08

Nice natural ingredient. What about something like the cordyceps mushroom, Mr. Dan?

SPEAKER_00: 31:13

Well, that helps ease fatigue, improve oxygen, destroy tumor cells, reduce bone loss, stabilize the heartbeat, and lower triglycerides.

SPEAKER_01: 31:22

So Stabilize the heartbeat. You're getting a little jittery, a little anxious in the afternoon. Again, magic mind to regain your flow state. And easing the fatigue. And then finally, ashwagandha.

SPEAKER_00: 31:32

So this is back to more of the neuro side of things. So this is used to support memory and cognitive function, lower blood sugar, build muscle, and increase strength, improve immune health, and improve reproductive health. So a lot of benefits with that one.

SPEAKER_01: 31:46

So say goodbye to feeling amped up and hello to feeling dialed in to boost your brain. brain performance, your memory, your mental acuity, your alertness, and your awareness. Add MagicMind to your day. www.magicmind.com or 56% off a subscription. Rediscover your mental power and endurance. Shake, breathe, drink. Magic Mind. Thanks, sir.

SPEAKER_00: 32:33

Absolutely. Moving on to number four, give your child a chance to express how they feel. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. And this is something I see as so important that I bring up even in my proact or in my trainings. Back to the me stepping on your foot example. If I step on your foot and you start yelling, and I'm like, why are you yelling again? Focus on how I'm feeling about the situation. That's never going to get to the root cause. And proact does do a really good job of when they talk about debriefing a situation, making sure it's debriefed from all perspectives, because so often there will be an issue where the child has a meltdown. Now keep in mind, the child's the one that had the meltdown, and the debriefing just turns into a lecture child bashing session of, you know you need to do your homework, and you know that's unacceptable, and I don't know why you do this and this, that, and the other. But at the end of the day, it's the child that had the behavior that led to the escalation of all parties. So we need to figure out why they had it and why they feel what they did so we can teach them them a different behavior, because our behavior was responding to their behavior. So we need to give them a different behavior. And without giving them the ability to debrief and express how they feel, we're never going to get to that root cause to a point where they feel empowered.

SPEAKER_01: 33:43

And this is really interesting when we're talking about children with autism, the idea of them expressing feelings, which some might see as an area of so-called core deficit, so then clearly an area that we need to focus on and explore. Now, again, to the Naive listener here, observer, one might think that we're going to get the ideal phrasing from our child, or that the author is saying that, well, tell me how you're feeling. Well, mommy, I'm feeling very upset. No, no, no. They are telling you how they're feeling, and it's usually the behaviors that we don't like that are telling us exactly how they're feeling. So in that sense, we have to believe them. And oftentimes what you do as a parent is because you want to quell the behavior. And you're not doing it with bad intent. It's because your child's in distress. You have an intrinsic drive to quell or protect your child and quell their distress. So you're doing it for that reason. Again, back to your point. It's how it makes me feel when the smoke alarm starts ringing that I'm now addressing why. So I need you to stop what you're doing that expresses the feelings that you're feeling. And somewhere in that process, I might deny the fact that you're feeling that. But just your clamoring, your screaming, your yelling, your dropping to the ground, your swiping and throwing items, those are all emotional expressions. For better or for worse, see what we're going to

SPEAKER_00: 35:13

say. So I think what you're saying, Mike, with that is they are expressing how they feel. So we don't need to say give the child a chance to express how they feel. They are expressing how they feel. Give them a chance to express how they feel in a way that we understand.

SPEAKER_01: 35:25

Right. There you go. That's a good clarification. Talk our language. And as they're expressing those things in the way they want to. back to your proact suggestions here, we might be needing to clear things from the environment. We might be needing to coax them to certain more open spaces or ourselves with them to more private spaces if we're out in the community. Maybe we're going back to the car for a little bit. Because you need to allow for the expression of these emotions and for you to be able to maintain your calm and cool and for you to be able to tell your child you love them. All those things the author's been talking about, which are really difficult, man, when you've got that You've got that smoke alarm, and again, I'm saying that with all due respect, but you've got that alarm call in your head, in your brain. And again, as parents, we're hardwired. We are hardwired to respond to that. So it's very easy to become escalated. Again, it's keeping cool in the face of crisis. And oftentimes for our kids, especially the young ones, especially certain individuals given their own sensory challenges, you can end up 45 minutes to an hour of a real fever pitch of a situation, and that's not easy. It's not easy to manage.

SPEAKER_00: 36:37

Yes, and maybe I should have a better word, not give them a way to express how they feel in a way you understand, because I think we typically understand somebody's upset in a way that you're comfortable with. The

SPEAKER_01: 36:47

social significance might be a good phrase there, not knowing what that means overall for any given person, but yeah, good point, good clarification.

SPEAKER_00: 36:54

And that's where that masking even comes in, is saying that just because I don't communicate in that way, you can't communicate in that way versus saying hey when you're upset you can absolutely communicate that by yelling or screaming or whatever you want me as your dad or therapist or whatever I don't understand that as well so it might not be as effective for you

SPEAKER_01: 37:16

All right, so let's move right along here because, again, we're running the risk. And I don't know that we can turn a seven-point list into two episodes. Well, we probably could. We shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00: 37:25

I think we're doing good here. Number

SPEAKER_01: 37:27

five. Okay, good. We're good.

SPEAKER_00: 37:28

Think of alternative behaviors and ways to calm your kids down. So this is the one point we said, you know, nine times out of ten, all of these can be used for any kid, not just somebody on the spectrum. Number five is the one deviation that might be a little bit different when we're talking about kids specifically on the spectrum. And we're talking about specific alternative ways to calm your kids down. So in this example, Mr. Brown talks about how sensory issues affect his kid. So he may use some noise-canceling headphones or things like that. His son loves music or books. So there are, obviously, when you're talking about individuals on the spectrum, potentially different ways that might soothe them. It goes back to the soothing piece that might help them de-escalate that may be a little bit different or look a little different than their neurotypical years

SPEAKER_01: 38:16

yeah I think that's a really good point you're making and this is where I the particularities might be very, very unique to a circumstance, to a child with ASD. The example of the noise-canceling headphones, things like the weighted blankets or a weighted vest, things that vibrate. Again, different, very particular sensory items that I know I've seen throughout my experience and my career. One of the things that can become an interesting discussion with those items, again, from a social perspective, and this is something that I put out there more as a as a discussion is the age appropriateness of some of those items or techniques. This is an interesting topic in the sense that one can be very personalized and say, look, I don't care what the rest of you are thinking. And then some of us might say, yeah, I don't need that additional stigma to be placed on my child. I think it can go both ways. It's more of a personal choice there. But I do think it behooves us as parents and as professionals to be very conscious, very aware of that. for mouthing and regulating. Some people like them. Some people think that they get drooly and disgusting. Sure. Again, I think that both of those points are valid. But more parameters that we can consider as we think about these strategies, when and how to implement them. And then to the author's credit, to your child's benefit within reason, you know, have at it. Do it as you need to to control a situation knowing that, like anything else we might suggest behaviorally, you might consider fading some of these things or presenting variations in these things naturally over time, knowing that you don't necessarily want to contrive crisis, but the idea that you sometimes find yourself in a situation where you forgot the headphones or you forgot this or the other, what other alternatives to the alternative might you have prepared. And again, I only say that because with all due respect to all parties involved, I never like for families to only have available to them chicken nuggets from Wendy's. You know what

SPEAKER_00: 40:20

I'm saying? But those are the best nuggets though, Mike. Okay. The spicy nuggets?

SPEAKER_01: 40:24

With the sweet and sour? Let's make sure you can have nuggets. Let's make sure you can eat chicken. Let's make sure that if you need the headphones, is there another way that in the absence of those headphones, we might help you alternatively to regain your composure? Yep. Sorry, those

SPEAKER_00: 40:40

Wendy's nuggets got me digressing a little bit there. But again, as we look at behavior being a product of the environment, at the end of the day, again, I hate to use these cliches, but the proof is in the pudding. If behavior is a product of the environment, we're the environment. So we have to figure out how we can change. And so often parents respond the same ways. And I can tell you one way that certainly doesn't make a kid with autism calm down, a kid in general calm down, my girlfriend calm down, is telling telling them to calm down. So often parents will do a certain behavior and they'll just keep doing it and they'll violate Einstein's rule of doing the same behavior and expecting a different result, being insanity. So thinking of those alternative ways, if your kid's not calming down by the strategies that you're using, so often the parents will just keep using the strategies and just using that blunt force object, if you need to calm down, change your strategies. Parents will come to me and they'll say, They're like, well, what can I do to calm my kid down? This thing isn't working. Well, I don't know what to do to calm your kid down, but I know what not to do. So keep trying new alternatives, and it might not work, but keep throwing darts at that dartboard, and eventually you'll hit.

SPEAKER_01: 41:51

Well, and the idea that you're here now asking me how to help your child calm down, which means you achieved in helping your child calm down, what you're saying is you want to reduce the duration of that process in which you're helping them calm down. You're here, you're alive, you're breathing, your child's dressed, they ate. You made it through the calming process now. Absolutely. Yeah, so you're doing okay. Yeah, I do think that it happened to be... number eight on the list here of this article, tell your child to calm down. And then Mr. Brown's editor said, we're taking that

SPEAKER_00: 42:20

one.

SPEAKER_01: 42:20

And it helps if you yell at them to calm down, too. Especially if you're telling them not to give your child, why don't you quiet down and calm down? Yes, you have to yell those things. And then that's the authoritarian parenting. Yep. All the things that we try. We laugh at it, but all the things you try as a parent when you lose your cool. Because those things do happen.

SPEAKER_00: 42:40

Well, I was trying to get you to do that yesterday with the Chase banking app, right? I

SPEAKER_01: 42:45

almost did. I almost yelled at the app. I don't yell at my children. I do yell at my technology, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 42:52

But if I was to tell you to calm down, that would have made you feel a lot better, I'm sure, in that moment.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

Instantly. Instantly. I'm going to throw my phone at you.

SPEAKER_00: 42:59

Number six, and I am glad that we did leave enough time for number six, because this is so, so important. It says, if needed, seek professional help. Look, we can't shake the fact that being a parent is challenging. Being a parent of a child with autism is challenging. Last I checked, the divorce rate was somewhere in the 80 percentile. It's high. In the parent groups that we work with, I know there's a lot of turmoil in not only dealing with a child who might not be able to communicate, who might physically assault, who might have a lot of ambiguity about what their prognosis is going to be. Maybe

SPEAKER_01: 43:31

doesn't sleep, doesn't eat very well. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 43:33

No, absolutely, which is causing the parents to get upset. Also, now parents doing different strategies to respond to it while they're upset, and now one parent's fussing frustrated that one parent responds a different way than they would, and now when the behavior finally does subside, now they look at the parent and instead of like, okay, finally the behavior's over, now they look at that other parent with frustration. There's a lot that goes on with this, and I'm not a parent, so I'll pass it to you pretty quickly here, Mike, and neither one of us are parents of children with autism, so I'd love to have, you know, Mr. Brown come talk about this piece more specifically. Just get help. It's important to understand that, hey, if you're frustrated at your parent, It's your spouse. Go talk to somebody about it. Figure out a way that you all can. If you're frustrated, if you're looking at your kid with resentment and things like that, running from it's not going to make it any better. There's a lot of resources. In my parent groups, I start talking about a lot of the regional center resources like respite and things like that, ways to refill your gas tank. You've got to find ways to do that because if you have no gas in your gas tank, you're not going to have any left to give to anyone else.

SPEAKER_01: 44:38

Time away. Time away from your child. You mentioned respite. Time away from your child. time away from your child if there's difficulties in behaviors, probably a whole new level that I don't understand personally, and that's okay, but I do have a lot of empathy and respect for all the parents we work with that do have to deal with challenges that I can look upon and say, you know what, that's a little different from what I, yes, I like the level playing field, I like that I can apply these techniques to my parenting as well as professionally to your parenting, but I can see the uniquenesses. And I'll go back to that 10% to 20% margin of error. I think if you're finding yourself as a parent, whether your child has autism or any other condition or anything, maybe something undiagnosed, we talk about behavioral pediatrics here and how much of routine behavior problems end up in pediatricians' offices because as parents, we're hitting the end of our rope. If you're finding yourself in distress with your child's behavior more than 20% of the time, yes. please reach out to somebody. If you're finding that it's... affecting your relationship with your partner, please go seek marriage, family therapy, or counseling. If it's something more specific to autism from a medical perspective or behavioral perspective, that's where you can talk to people like ourselves to give strategies to empower you as a parent to make you feel like you're in more control. And the idea that there's a, you know, I joke about the perfect English school child here. That's not only in England. I think there's only a couple of them left. They're almost extinct. And they're all wearing the same outfit, if I understand correctly, the knickers and the bow tie. They must all be boys, I'm not sure. I might get in trouble for that statement. Point being is that children are supposed to express distress. Children are supposed to... engage your greater instinct, engage your greater frustration. That's part of learning as a parent. And if you find yourself feeling a little bit overwhelmed, yes, resources. Online, our show, go talk to somebody. Plenty of books out there. Reach out to us on any of our various social media outlets and we're glad to point you in the right direction. If not, give you some quick overview strategies knowing that we can't necessarily see your child or your situation directly. But yeah, everybody is going to do with routine behavior problems as a parent. And then if your child is dealing with some additional challenges, then you're probably dealing with some unique circumstances there as well. There are plenty of people out there that can help, including us here at ABA on tap.

SPEAKER_00: 47:22

Absolutely. They say something in this paragraph, Mr. Brown says, from my personal perspective, my son's reaction to anger led him to constantly being sent home from school. One time my wife had to take him to the hospital because he wouldn't or couldn't calm down and she had lost all patience. Again, this is circular. If you're not seeking help, you're not going to have the patience or the mental stamina or acuity to deal with the situation, you may overreact, which leads the kid to overreact, and now you're back in this circular negativity there. So the more we can proactively, again, ABA, the more we can proactively implement these strategies, the more effective that we're going to be. He talks about towards the end of the article, don't be afraid to take a break if necessary. It's so important. Again, so many parents that I work with look at any break they take at the expense of their child, but it's not. Anytime you can refill your gas tank, that means you're coming back into the situation with a new level of freshness and vigor. And that's just so important when we talk about seeking professional help and making sure you are taking care of yourself. It's never at expense of your child. It's always at the benefit of your child. Make sure you're taking care of yourself. You're talking to the people you need to talk to. Because ABA, like we said, was built in a lab. And yes, when you're talking about people in a lab, They can implement the procedures perfectly because that's what they're being paid to do. But as you as a parent implementing whatever the procedures, the better state that you're in will mean that you can implement the procedures better. I can give you the best procedure in the world, but if you're only able to implement it at 10% or 15%, then it's not going to be very successful. So making sure that whatever the procedures you have, that you're in the best state to implement them is going to be way more important than any ABA therapy that you're going to get. He mentions, too, he says ABA therapy has been shown to help some autistic children. Others have had a negative experience, so make sure you do your research. Make sure as a parent you're ready for what ABA entails and you're comfortable talking with your therapist and letting them know what does and does not work for you.

SPEAKER_01: 49:33

I'm going to go as far as saying this. If you're involved in ABA therapy, and we're going to give the guarantee here, if you're involved in ABA therapy and your behavior analyst, your case manager, supervisor, gives you a strategy or a technique that you don't feel comfortable with, you tell them immediately. And if they tell you there is no other strategy available, find somebody else.

SPEAKER_00: 49:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 49:59

So I want to highlight that point you made I can think that I gave you the best textbook research-oriented strategy. If it doesn't work for your parenting style, if it doesn't make you feel empowered, it's not going to be a magic wand. So you might have to apply this procedure, protocol, several times before you see it work. It's going to be a learning process. So if you're given a suggestion that you don't feel comfortable with, ask for more information. If they're able to persuade you otherwise, great. If you're not able to do it and they can't give you something new, I'm going to say find yourself a different behavior analyst.

SPEAKER_00: 50:32

Absolutely. And I guess I'll just conclude with that, talking about the implementation piece and making sure you're in the best state. Parents will fight and fight and fight to get every extra hour of ABA. Let's say hypothetically we have 40 hours. They fought hard and got their 40 hours of ABA, but they're just so burnt out and exhausted and frustrated that they're only really there and present for 20% of that and only able to really implement and generalize 20% of that. So we're talking about eight hours then of functional ABA. So even if you were only getting 10 hours a week, but you're in a much better state. That's one-fourth of the ABA that you'd be getting, but you're in so much of a better state because you're comfortable with what's going on. You're there to be present 80% of the time. That's still eight hours of functional ABA. You have one-fourth of the commitment with the same exact net benefit, and that just comes down to the parent being in the best possible spot.

SPEAKER_01: 51:27

Plenty of help to get out there. I know the waiting list can be long right now, but don't give up. Certainly find yourself the right fit in terms of your professional help as well. People that understand you, that you feel are giving you suggestions based on what you're telling them.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

Yes, yes. Whether you're talking to a therapist, please find a babysitter. It's so important to take care of yourself. Go on date nights.

SPEAKER_01: 51:49

Respite services, like you were saying earlier.

SPEAKER_00: 51:51

Respite services. I was talking on one of my parent groups last week about identity and how sometimes parents will look at themselves as, oh, I'm a professional, I'm a wife, I'm a mom, and things like that. And once the child has autism, now the whole self-identity is just the mom and they lose the I'm a professional and the wife. Please make sure that you're The professional piece will depend on your ability to do that, but you're making sure that you're also being a good partner and you're maintaining that part as well. Well, sir, we're going to make it on time. Can you believe that? Number seven. Number seven. So, so important, and I talk about this so often. Forgive yourself. It's so important that parents will... With kids on the spectrum, you're fighting a more... Your battle is going to have more obstacles than maybe someone that isn't a parent or doesn't have a child with autism. Could be. Be easy on yourself. I think it was Maya Angelou had that quote that I'm sure I've referenced. You did the best you could at the time. When you knew better, you did better. And make every experience a learning experience. It's that if you're... constantly losing your cool for the same situation, okay, now we've got an issue. But if you lose your cool and you learn from it, you apologize like we talked about earlier, and you're going to do something differently next time, forgive yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 53:16

I was going to try to see if I can put this together. So if you're upset because you got upset, try not to stay upset. Lest you make yourself upset. So the idea is, as a parent, it's one of the hardest things. This number seven is likely the most trying aspect of being a parent. And you have to remember that you feel bad about something that went wrong because you care. And if you can hold on to that, it helps. Because otherwise... feeling poorly about having not done your best for your kids can be very overwhelming. And I think that's what the author's talking about here. And I like what you highlight in the sense that we are talking about a distribution here. Yeah. And we've got averages and a huge average range, and we're going to trust that Mr. Brown, the author here, is very well versed with his two boys, his professional experience, as well as his, obviously, some great wisdom as a parent that he lends here. So we trust that he has a unique experience in having to forgive himself for losing his school, for the idea that... You know, I can lose my cool with my teenagers and say, oh, man, they never think about themselves. Well, of course, they're teenagers. That's what they're going through. I'm going to imagine that the author has a very unique perspective on that here in terms of, wow, I expected my child to do this, and I know that that's a huge challenge for him. That can really be a bummer as a parent. So you have to reflect on it. You have to, you know... garumph and him and ha and go stomp your feet outside for a little bit and then at the end of the day come back with a smile and modeling the exact behaviors that you want your children to embody moving forward even when they're upset about their shortcomings or failures. It's a nice way to wrap up this list.

SPEAKER_00: 55:12

You mentioned the term feeling bad. Two things can come from that. Either one, you feel bad and then you get solemn and you withdraw from your child, so now you're not accessible. Well, that's not benefiting the child. So the situation's over, but now because you feel bad about how you reacted, you're withdrawing, less accessibility. Or you feel bad, so some parents feel bad, so then they overcompensate and give the kids whatever they want because they feel bad about that situation, which now can lead to new behaviors in the future. So feel how you're going to feel, by all means. We want there to be a level of self-awareness or feeling bad, for lack of a better term, because if you acted way out of line and didn't feel bad, that's a huge problem. So understand and acknowledge that. But as a wise man once said, I know Kobe said it in an interview. I don't think he was the first one to say it. But he said there's no losses. There's just learning experiences. So that's the thing with forgiving yourself. I learned that this antecedent produces this behavior from my kid. And when my kid does this, this is how I typically respond. Let me get out in front of it because we so often talk about proactive strategies for the kids. No, we need to have proactive strategies for ourselves. Let me make sure that I'm getting out in front of these behaviors and I'm finding ways to respond to the behaviors. I'm implementing those calming strategies that I've been trying to teach the kid. I'm using them myself. Because at the end of the day, kind of moping about it isn't going to be productive from anyone's perspective. If we can learn from it, but also forgive yourself. Because understanding you have a really hard job, a job that you necessarily didn't sign up for, but you were given. And as a result of that... you might lose your cool, but it's really, really important to forgive yourself when you do it and not judge yourself and berate yourself, but kind of look how you can make each one of those situations a learning experience.

SPEAKER_01: 57:10

Tricky, man, because clearly you're feeling it. You're feeling the distress or the shortcoming for a reason. I like the way you put it. You can do one of two things with that. You can address it, or you can withdraw and mope. You might mope 10% of the time, and then your kid gets to see you what that looks like, and maybe they model it, maybe they feel it, maybe they feel a little bit of remorse because they see that that made you feel that way, but you cannot stay in that state. You have to then gather yourself and dust off and keep moving forward, again, modeling the very things that you want your children to embody in some future, that resiliency that you're demonstrating, the humanity that you keep talking about that we need to put back in as we make our children our kiddos, our patients, more attentive, more observant, more able to receive input from the environment.

SPEAKER_00: 58:01

Yeah, I remember specifically there was a day, and there have been multiple times where you've come to me, but there was a day when we were at our PCSD office and we shared an office and there was a situation with you and your son in the morning that kind of deteriorated and you came to the office and you were like, hey, man, I... I overreacted in this situation, and now I feel bad about this, and now I've got to figure out how I'm going to remedy this situation when my son gets home from school. And we kind of talked about it, and it is important that you're able to turn that into productivity because you don't want to just beat yourself up. You're not going to just be like, okay, well, I messed up. I'm going to turn in my dad card because of that. At the end of the day, you still have to be a dad, so how are you going to learn from it, and how are you going to minimize the damage from it? this point forward. And that's what we talked about too, about showing accountability. So whatever is done is done. So forgive yourself and figure out how to remedy it both with the kid, with yourself, maybe your partner. How do we get out of it? So whatever damage is done, how do we make sure that we plug this leak and not just continue to open it to where now, like you said, that water wall, now water is just going through it, gushing through it?

SPEAKER_01: 59:07

I have to qualify that a little bit more because I'll choke up thinking about it right now. I had taken a very strong authoritarian stance and torn into my son about some homework stuff. And long story short, I I was wrong. I can laugh about it now, but let me tell you, it was devastating, and I did a lot of what the author talked about at that time. I got myself together, and I apologized. I apologized, and I acknowledged the fact that I was wrong. We hope you've enjoyed these parenting resources here. The next time we talk about Jeremy Brown, we hope to have him on the show. I did reach out to him on LinkedIn just today, so we'll see when he gets back. I don't have a LinkedIn account that's active, so hopefully he'll get my message and email me. If you're hearing this or anybody knows Jeremy Brown, please let him know. We're looking to have him on our show. We'd love to learn more about his experiences. He's given us at least two fantastic itemized lists of parenting strategies that gave us a very, very rich discussion, so we're very happy to feature those to start seeing Season 5. Mr. Dan, any closing remarks, sir?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:16

Thank you so much, Mr. Brown, for the material, for you being an excellent parent and taking your trials and tribulations and making them learning experiences not only for yourself but for the public and the greater good. So thank you very much for that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:29

So take Mr. Brown's advice, take our extensions of that advice, and always analyze responsibly. Cheers. ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.