IDEA, IEPs and ABA with Matthew Storey, Esq. Part II

ABA on Tap is proud to present Matthew Storey, Esq. (Part 2 of 2)

Matt became a special education attorney because he saw firsthand the struggles his family went through navigating the education system. Matt's goal has always been to put parents on equal footing with schools and provide effective representation. 

In this episode, we discuss all matters from procedural rights, to the intent of IDEA from its origin, to the current state of affairs. Matt shares his very up close and personal experience with the notion of disability and adds his professional expertise along the way. 

Know your rights, demand due process and always analyze responsibly.

You can find Matt's expert law firm at the link below:

https://calsped.com

🎧 Now streaming on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you listen.

#ABAonTap #BCBA #RBT #BehaviorAnalyst #FieldworkStudent #IEPLaw #IDEA #SpecialEducationLaw #DueProcess #FAPE #CalSPED #DisabilityRights #AutismAdvocacy #ParentRights #BT #ABACommunity #EthicalABA #BehindTheAnalyst #KnowYourRights #StudentAdvocacy #SpecialEducationAttorney #AppliedBehaviorAnalysis #ABA

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tap. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00: 0:54

All right, all right, and welcome back to part two with Matthew's story. Enjoy and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02

I know it's been so much time going over the resources, which we'll talk about later, that you have, but there's a lot of free stuff. I just want to really emphasize that we're not saying you have to go out and spend a lot of money. In fact, I remember a little anecdotal story, but when you were first introduced to me, my buddy was like, oh man, he's a special ed lawyer. And I was like, oh, I have a kid. Here we go again. And then I realized the difference. I didn't know the difference at the time. But you know, my... Advocates are very hit and miss. There's a lot of advocates. My partner's been dealing with them for probably 20 years. Because they get paid by the hour, and like you said, there's no real qualification to be an advocate. I could say I'm an advocate right now and charge whatever. They'll spend hours arguing about grammar on an IEP or is the I dotted or T crossed or stuff like that. So it's a service you definitely want to vet, and there can certainly be really good ones and really good benefits for it, but we're not saying you have to do it. But what we are really suggesting is making sure you empower yourself in whatever way that you can afford.

SPEAKER_01: 1:56

Yeah, and I would definitely ask around before you choose an advocate. There's a lot more advocates than there are attorneys. And there are some really good ones. Not sure my mom was a good advocate. I think she was probably a yeller. So she was venting at those IEP teams. But no, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_03: 2:11

You know, it's interesting because I've seen a lot of advocates come, kind of like your experience, have like a son or daughter or family member that was wronged in their mind, whether they were or weren't, was wronged by the education system. Yeah. it's their way to give back to others but sometimes having an advocate that has a child or family member that was in that situation can actually be counterproductive because they run everything through the lens of their child and how their child was wrong and it's difficult for them to compartmentalize

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

no and if they're walking into meetings angry and vindictive we do see that a lot and again I meet with parents I'm actually this last two weeks ago I met with a parent who had an advocate who I'd never met and the advocate spent 20% of the time telling me how I was wrong and I forget what it was it was something to do actually I think it was a one-to-one aid and it was for reading I'm like he needs a one-to-one aid for reading I'm like well one-to-one aid is not going to help you with that no no I mean they need to have specific instruction I agree with you but a one-to-one aid is not going to get you there you're wrong the case law says this okay well good luck you know and but you know the parent at that point had really believed in what the advocate was doing they're going to have a real tough time right and that becomes quite an issue but parents can usually find good resources I mean still on Facebook. From what I understand, you can kind of get out there and find somebody who's using the advocate you may want to hire. It's a nice way to get a referral.

SPEAKER_03: 3:32

Facebook can also be dangerous. I'm not saying it's not. I remember, Mike, I loved your story about why you quit advocacy.

SPEAKER_00: 3:41

Well, it was being told what to do. So I had the vendorization through the regional center, which I felt very good about. And then I I felt pretty competent and I started being asked or requested that I do private advocacy work, which I was thrilled about based on the compensation. And then I realized that based on that compensation, these parents just wanted to tell me exactly what to get them. And I used to make the joke, I'll get you a new water heater if you want. And I actually can, if you can prove that your child needs a hot shower in the morning to access education. However, is that the best use of our time and our tax dollars here? And that was kind of the joke. And that's why I had to quit. I mean, I was also moving into ABA and whatnot. I'd I have a pretty varied history, a pretty colorful background. But that was the main reason is I didn't like it. And I was always getting upended by some other advocate who was then going to promise the parents this or that or the other. And I was really trying to look at, hey, look, this is what is best for your child. And logistically speaking, again, you don't have to stick to this, but I know your school can provide this without too much more of a ring of a roll and trying to find out what these services are. So trying to be practical and pragmatic and saying, this is what your child can benefit from. It's right there. Yes, it's not the exact thing that we might want legally, but it might... work for now as you pursue the other part and a lot of times it was you know those advocates that were going to come in and yell and not try to collaborate with the school staffs i was i just really tried to be collaborative behaviorally speaking because it i didn't want some teacher to be afraid of me i wanted to know that i was going to be thorough and that more than anything i was going to be there to support her too and say hey have you tried this that or the other so

SPEAKER_01: 5:13

yeah well it's not a tv show i get parents that do that all the time they're like well i want a bulldog it's not going to happen i'm good at what i do i don't need to yell and scream at people you know that's not how this process works you know and then they do that with advocates too I have a lot of friends who are advocates and they drop clients really fast because of stuff like that that's how they found their space to work here this is a stressful place to work in right because you got parents who you know rightly so are very upset and then they come to you and sometimes that they begin you know treating you you know not not well and we do this we'll get rid of parents as well like you know that I understand you're upset you have a reason to be upset this is not the way this is going to work advocates deal with that the most you know and then what happens like you just said this happens a lot a parent will go to an advocate who's a great advocate the advocate will say listen this is you know we need to do a b and c and that's not what the parent wanted then they'll go to another advocate who promised them the stars you know and it doesn't work out i mean it's a tough it's a tough system to work

SPEAKER_00: 6:07

it's easy to walk in there it's very validating for parents you're screaming on their behalf and you're pointing at people but at the end of the day i don't i never found that um and i i can gladly say i never did that but in having watched other people operate and doing that i never walked out of those rooms feeling like anybody maybe the parent felt like they were supported Yeah. But I would see a very dejected school team and it's like, well, these are the people that are working with your kid. Do you really want them feeling that way when you walk out of here? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01: 6:32

Well, I've told many a parent and told that because you've destroyed any legal case you have. So let's say you've got this advocate who's yelling and screaming at an IEP team. You've audio recorded it. Okay. Good. Good. Which is a good idea. And a judge hears that they're going to side with the team. They're just going to side with the team. You're not doing yourself any favors by raising your voice and yelling at an IEP team. Even by the way, sometimes they deserve it. Sure. It does not. Sure. They do. anyway, to have somebody in that meeting, scolding people, it, you need to become, you need to ask important questions, listen to the answers, come up with suggestions, but there are actual cases out there where judges have admonished the advocate and the parent, you know, and almost sanctioned them because of the behavior and IEP team. Parents have to cool it on that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:12

And that's off the legality at that point. I mean, this is, this is just a reactionary. I mean, for better or for worse, they're saying, Nope, this is not the way these proceedings are going to work. You're done. You've lost your case, not on merit, but just on, yeah, on I mean, because judges... I mean, I could go

SPEAKER_01: 7:26

off. We do not have the best judges in the world in our field in California. I speak, I think, pretty well for most. And so, you know, most of the judges that come into our field never did special education. This is considered complex litigation,

SPEAKER_02: 7:40

which means

SPEAKER_01: 7:40

there's a premium on it because not a lot of people do it.

UNKNOWN: 7:42

It's very difficult.

SPEAKER_00: 7:44

So we bring in people and they're ALJs, administrative law judges. Right,

SPEAKER_01: 7:48

right. You know, it was a will and trust attorney who got a state job and they don't know anything about this process. So they're they come into here, they automatically, because they've never worked this field, don't understand how schools work. They believe everything the district does is altruistic. And then they hear you on a recording yelling at the team, you lose.

SPEAKER_00: 8:04

It's all over.

SPEAKER_01: 8:05

Yeah. And I mean, parents lose 82 to 87% of all cases that go before the California administrative courts. They're bad. They're really bad. There are some good judges, but a lot of bad ones, you know, and so it's a tough case. It can be a real tough thing to pursue litigation here.

SPEAKER_03: 8:21

You made an interesting statement a little bit earlier about, you know, parents may being emotional I can imagine like maybe the your child like you said maybe the child's even larger than the parent maybe hitting and kicking like you're as a parent and you both are parents you probably can relate to just the stress of having typically developing child and you mentioned your child was on IEP maybe not talking for a period of time so you're just really stressed out and you get this report where it's just like your child's not making progress like I imagine that's just got to be overwhelming for lack

SPEAKER_01: 8:50

of a better term emotional and angry like I mean I think there needs to be room for parents to be able to vent a little bit, you know, to a certain degree. I don't know where the line is with that, but yeah, I mean, it's no matter who it is, it's your kid and you're completely invested in this little human and everything that goes on is an emotional thing for you. And especially if you have a kid who's disabled, you have a kid who's disabled. That is a different degree of stress that parents go through. So there needs to be a line for parents or a place for parents to be frustrated, especially if you don't see a lack of progress. Well, I think what we're talking about too, to some degree, agree is that you know people can feed off that right you know this is a this can be a targeted community sometimes with people promising all kinds of snake oil and that that sometimes is my job is to explain what they've been told is incorrect or wrong and try to walk them down that right path because it's you know there's a lot of advocates out there a good amount of advocates who do that a good advocate if you hear the words you're wrong I think you probably got a good advocate I think you got I think That's their job. If you have an advocate saying everything you're telling me is right constantly, that might not be a good sign. The best advocates I know here in San Diego especially, they tell me all the time that they told their clients they were wrong. They know their stuff. That's their job.

SPEAKER_00: 10:10

As a parent, you've got the advocate telling you you're right on everything. Why do you need the advocate

SPEAKER_01: 10:13

anymore? What was the point

SPEAKER_00: 10:15

of any of that? You're working yourself out of a job, buddy.

SPEAKER_01: 10:17

You're paying a lot of money just to go do the same thing.

SPEAKER_03: 10:21

You said that parents lose 82% 87%. That's just the kind of person that had to let that marinate for a second. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01: 10:28

Why is that? There's a couple reasons. That's a good question. We used to be under a different court system called CHO, which I could not explain now. It used to be run out of Pacific McGeorge Law School. I remember that. Basically, under the IDEA, you have the right to file what we call a due process. Every state is different. Ours are under the Department of Education. It's an administrative case, which is totally different. They They're very fast cases, a couple of months, and an administrative law judge, no jury, decides on the merits of your case. That's what it is. So if a district's not assessing, providing services, what have you. Historically, about 10 years ago, we were under CEHO, and it was about 50-50. Parents won 50% of the time. Districts won 50% of the time. And then we went to the Office of Administrative Hearings. The Office of Administrative Hearings is a huge network of different... They do Social Security stuff, IHSS stuff, all kinds of stuff. And we have a special education group of judges who hear our cases. Some are good. Some have no experience. And we lose a lot of cases. The reason The reason we do, I mean, it's a lack of training. It's a lack of professionalism in this community. You know, they don't have people that used to work in this field. And, you know, I mean, I've been doing this for almost 15 years. I'm still learning things. OK, so there's no way somebody with no experience could be an effective judge. And then I think on the outside of that, you know, not a lot of attorneys go to trial. And so a lot of times in our field, attorney will only go through what we call mediation and then we'll drop the case. So we don't have a lot of attorneys that go to trial. And then even if they lose, they don't challenge it. So we don't have as much precedent in the state of California as we probably need to overturn, you know, ALJs. The third reason is because they they're not admonished to any degree. So if a judge has a bad decision, I read it. I look at it. A district reads it and they go, well, that's clearly not the law. I've had that where a judge wrote the law completely wrong. There's no system of checks and balances that's effective at least at the Office of Administrative Hearings. And so it's a very tough process. What I tell my clients every time is I say, we're going to go to due process. We're going to lose. And then we're going to file it in federal court and we're going to win. That's what it is. Because a federal judge, especially here in San Diego. We're in the Southern District. They're great. We've got really good judges. They'll overturn an ALGA. We see that consistently. Fortunately, I've won the last handful of cases, but the cases we have lost, we appeal and it usually goes from there. We have to tell parents, I want you to expect to lose. We're just here to create a record. Then we're going to move right on to federal court. That's what this process is going to look like.

SPEAKER_03: 13:17

You personally have a pretty good success for the cases that you litigate,

SPEAKER_01: 13:20

right? I'm knocking on wood like crazy. Yeah, I don't know how many cases I've done. I've lost two, two cases out of all the cases I've done. But I think I've gotten, being honest, I've gotten lucky with the judges for the most part. And the cases that I've lost, the judges were not awesome, for lack of a better word. And one of them was overturned and the other one just settled. And so it really, that matters. The issue we run into, like again, For me as a lawyer, there are really, really, really good lawyers in this state. I think the best in the country that I've run into, that I've learned from. But we still have a lot of attorneys that won't even go to trial. That's been a frustrating issue. So if you're a parent and you're going to a lawyer, you need to make sure they go to what we call due process or trial. That's a huge thing because nobody cares. Districts laugh at the attorneys that don't go. And so that becomes a whole other issue that kind of segues into something else.

SPEAKER_03: 14:18

Do they, so you're saying a parent should ask if you go will a lawyer that doesn't go to due process or trial just flat out say

SPEAKER_01: 14:24

i don't or will they okay yeah usually usually and again you won't run into that issue pretty much most places in the state i think la san diego there's only a few that well there's there's a good amount i should say that do do that

SPEAKER_00: 14:36

what part of that um would you say is more of a bargaining chip so the idea that a school district uh their legal they're going to have to consider yeah how much they need they want to spend on actually sticking to their side.

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

I've got a story for that.

SPEAKER_00: 14:48

Okay. So, um,

SPEAKER_01: 14:49

so I was in, uh, this was a couple of years ago. There was somebody I knew that practiced on our side. Dan knows who it is. I'm not going to throw this person under the bus. So, um, so we're sitting there and they, they'd asked me about the individual. How would they not say, I haven't talked to this guy in a long time. And I go, they like, yeah, we just saw them in a case. I'm like, Oh, how'd it go? He's like, Oh, he didn't go to trial. We're good. And what do you mean? You're good. He's like, yeah, He gave up. We just knew we had to push it past mediation. That's the difference. If a district believes that you're going to take them to trial, for sure, they're going to take you more seriously. That's every field. You wouldn't. You would just be looking at your watch going, well, you're going to give up anyways. That doesn't always happen. Districts do look a lot of times, at least in my experience, at the merits of the case. They do. The people that I've worked with in every district in San Diego, I like. I like the lawyers. I like the representatives we get along you know we disagree we disagree professionally totally great so most of the time they're still going to work it out but yeah I mean for sure the districts know who they can steam steam roll over and they do it pretty consistently you know depending on the case but yeah you know like I said I do see that quite a bit more these days but again like I mentioned guys there's not a lot of attorneys in this field you know there really are not people have to have a personal connection I've never seen anybody and I don't know how to works for you guys. I've never seen anybody without a personal connection as a lawyer succeed. They always have a story, just like mine. Their son, their daughter, their brother, their sister, their aunt. Somebody in the family, somebody they knew. Yeah, because it's an odd field to go in. You have to be comfortable around this stuff. We all work in this community. I am totally comfortable. You are totally comfortable being around people with disabilities. This bears repeating. Sometimes people are not. You've seen it, I'm sure. That guy that's never been around CP, that guy that's never been around autism or Down syndrome, they're uncomfortable. Same applies for lawyers okay right and so you have to be comfortable talking to parents doesn't bother me at all to talk to a parent with a disability talk about their kid but I know for a fact because I've hired lawyers that have had this issue they have a real tough time talking to parents about their kid and this stuff that they're doing and so you have to get kind of past that hurdle to then kind of successfully work in this field you know which hopefully they do we do need more lawyers by the way that is for sure we're always trying to get more lawyers into this field they usually last about six months to a year that seems to That seems to be the number.

SPEAKER_00: 17:22

Okay. I'll extend that a little bit. I think you have to be comfortable around those that are also uncomfortable to make them comfortable. Oh

SPEAKER_01: 17:28

my God,

SPEAKER_00: 17:29

yeah. Yeah. Because you can't let them make you uncomfortable. That derails everything. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 17:32

like two weeks ago, I had a client in my office and there was a few of us in there and her son came in, grabbed me, grabbed my hair, pulled it way back, took my glasses and left. It was just like, all right, you know, that's a Monday right there. That's a Monday. That's why you don't have hair? Yeah, no. If we had a video here, We would show you who's taller and has less hair. You know both of those are true.

SPEAKER_03: 17:57

I have a few more questions or points. You're up. I want to do a pros and cons list. What are some things that you see specific for schools that you would advise parents to maybe look out for? Kind of on that side, what are your... suggestions.

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

Well, I mean, so when you say what to look out for, do you mean like stuff they're telling you, stuff they're doing? I mean, kind of across the board.

SPEAKER_03: 18:23

Yeah. So, It was going to lead to my question in a little bit of when should they reach out to a lawyer, but as a lawyer, maybe some things that they could do before they get to you, some things to look out for, maybe that school districts, again, not trying to throw school districts under the bus, maybe you see frequently that they don't do that they should be doing or they shouldn't do that they should be doing, some things that, specifics that parents should know about and look for or look out for.

SPEAKER_01: 18:50

I think you could start off chronologically. You're seeing something wrong and you've told the district, hey, my son or daughter's not reading. They're showing signs of autism. They're not speaking. What can we do? If a district's not assessing, that's a red flag. So every single week, and the district, a buddy of mine who works in San Diego Unified would totally validate this. He gets an email from me that has a kid's name and says the school failed to assess. Can you get this done? The parent has shown, you know, asked for an assessment. And in California, if a parent asks for an assessment, you've got 15 days to hand that parent an assessment plan and start the assessment process. Every single week, I get a case where, you know, that has happened. That's an easy lawsuit, by the way. Instead of doing that, I email usually the director of special ed in a couple of different districts, but the one in San Diego, he and I just have a good relationship. So I email and they immediately begin assessing.

SPEAKER_02: 19:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 19:38

What a parent can do right off the bat is put things in writing. You have class dojo, you have Jupiter grades, you have email, really put things in writing. And there's a couple reasons for that. Number one, you know, if you're a teacher and you know, you guys, you've had young kids, right? You go pick your kid up from class and 25 other kids there. If you go talk to the teacher, they're not going to remember a dang thing you

SPEAKER_02: 19:58

just

SPEAKER_01: 19:59

said, right? So put it in writing, start making that a habit. Yes, you talk to the teacher, but follow up in writing. So, you know, I think number two, um, a parent could definitely, you know, start reading the IEP a little bit more than they normally do and not sign that document until they understand it. I think a parent could audio record their IEPs. I do. It's not weird. It's a great way to keep a record and not have to go back. Um, As far as, I'm trying to think of your question to what do I see districts doing? It's really the big thing we see is a failure to assess. After that, it gets bigger. It gets bigger. It's a failure to provide appropriate services. So reading has been a big issue in California. All of our kids came home in COVID and we realized they weren't reading. That was it. That literally happened in California because we knew, or teachers knew, they were not teaching them how to read appropriately. We went to the Culkin's method, which you can look up. And we've been trying to get the science of reading where we teach kids the foundational blocks of reading, phonetic understanding, and then build them up. But we haven't been teaching kids how to read. That's why you have so many dyslexia issues. And so schools are just catching up with that. They're starting to get their right Orton, Gillingham, Wilson, Barton programs in line. But having those appropriate services and noting when they need to be put in place. Another red flag is a big one is if those goals weren't met and the team is doing the same thing the next year, you know something Okay. For sure, something's wrong because that makes no sense. IEP needs to change every year if that stuff hasn't been met. It's kind of a long-winded answer.

SPEAKER_03: 21:32

Okay. So not assessing initially? Not assessing. Progress, like stagnant progress without change?

SPEAKER_01: 21:39

Yeah, and then not making adjustments to the IEP, and then not providing appropriate services. And here's the thing. As a parent, you're not going to know, which is why at the beginning of this conversation, I pushed so hard for independent assessments. It's okay for you as a parent to have no idea what's going on. what needs to be done. You know something's wrong, right? You get it. You're like, okay, I'm not seeing progress. You know, there's something socially is going on. You just need to know that they need to do something. And that something is usually assessments. And if that assessment doesn't work, then it's independent assessments. And if you know those few things and put everything in writing, you're going to have a fundamentally better IEP process.

SPEAKER_03: 22:15

I definitely noticed some of the parents that I worked with that used certain terms like free and appropriate education or IEE, things like that. All of a sudden, the IEP was totally different. Yeah. Again, not that the teachers or members of the IEP were against them, but all of a sudden they minded their P's and Q's and they made sure that everything was by the book.

SPEAKER_00: 22:33

Behaviorally, I think it shows a certain level of investment on those parents, right? So I like your point, not to say that those teachers or that school staff is taking it back and be like, oh, now we're busted as much as, oh, now somebody's talking our language or our technology. So I do think it, yes, certainly you can catch some people that think you didn't know what you were talking about, for sure. And then I do think that it probably puts those, hopefully puts that school staff at ease and going, okay, this parent is invested. They know what they're talking about. Hopefully they can respond accordingly. I love the

SPEAKER_01: 23:00

parent that brings donuts to IEP meetings. Oh, man. I know plenty, right? You've heard this. Yeah, no, for sure. You're dealing with people, right? Yeah, it's the way to do it. And this stuff was hard fought. We talked about it before we came on. Getting these procedural protections, these services in place, this was a hard fight that took a long time. And so I always tell parents, please appreciate the amount of work that has gone into getting this stuff available for you. So take the time to learn it. and you'll be a better advocate for your kid.

SPEAKER_03: 23:26

So you brought up IEEE a bunch of times. Just for specifics, how exactly does the parent... The parent just says, I want an IEP. They get a list of provider. It can... So

SPEAKER_01: 23:37

here's how IEs work. Typically a district gets the first bite of the apple. So let's play it out with autism. You, you, you tell the district, Hey, I believe my child has autism and the district does an assessment. You don't agree with it. So at that point you can request an independent education evaluation and the district only has two options. They can either fund it, which plays, they, you know, you go choose your provider and the district contracts with them, but you have to remember the district can also file a due process to defend their assessment. So we call that funder file. So most districts across the state are going to grant that IE because it's a waste of money to file a due process there are a couple districts who will file a due process and it's awful if they do that I think it's one of the worst decisions a school district can ever make because litigating you're suing a parent I mean that's clearly stupid but there are some districts that do that very specific districts and we see all kinds of problems in the districts you know that waste the money and time on that stuff

SPEAKER_03: 24:31

okay so they just request say I want an IE and they will be given a list of people they can call but you can also choose

SPEAKER_01: 24:36

your own Yeah, you'll be given a list. Parents ask that all the time. Well, are they going to give me a list? They are. They're going to give you a list of IE providers. Call them and see who you like. But you also have the opportunity to go and find your own assessor. They have to meet certain criteria. Usually there's a cost cap of funding that you have access to. In San Diego, in Southern California, they're always going to meet the cost cap, so you're fine. And then you can just ask other people. We keep a list of advocates. Other attorneys keep a list of people they use. And by the way, they're usually pretty consistent. IE list is almost the same as my list,

SPEAKER_02: 25:06

yeah. Okay. I'm

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

going to give you a magic wand here. Or did you have a follow-up? So a magic wand here. One thing, if you could change one thing, or more than one thing, but what would you change about school district and just programmatic behavior that you think could make a big difference?

SPEAKER_01: 25:22

That's a big question.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

So I would want more money, smaller class sizes. You know, those are the two biggest issues I see in education right now. And with the DOE closing, or that's not going to close, but with the issues we're seeing that's a problem we don't take education serious in this country and my thought is always we should be going for the greatest public schools that have ever existed that should be the mantra in my mind we're not even anywhere near that however the two issues that I see that always seem to be rubbing against each other are too many kids in a classroom and not enough money and because of that it's an endless cycle you know I have a nine year old and if I go to a birthday party with 30 kids it's chaos Why would you expect different in a third grade classroom? And by the way, my son's teacher, awesome. They do a great job. But this idea that we're shoving 25 elementary school kids in a class and thinking that's okay is so unbelievably stupid. It's hard to sometimes reconcile with reality. And to

SPEAKER_03: 26:25

expect that they're going to be on similar levels.

SPEAKER_01: 26:26

Oh my God, no. And that the teacher's going to know where your child is. And so to me, really up until fourth grade, people ask me this all the time, I wouldn't have more than 10 kids in a classroom. Right. Because from fourth grade, you go from learning to read to reading to learn. And then I would start incrementally increasing it. And then if you do that, you have less services required because the kid's getting more individualized attention. A teacher with a kid with behaviors in a class of 25 is going to have a tougher time than a teacher with 10 kids in a class. So I'd like to see that. But really, a lot of this comes down to funding. The IDEA mandated 40% of states' money would come from the federal government. They've never gone beyond that. down 13%. It's just not a big priority. Wow. So when we're talking about the lack of services, this is all money. It's all money. Teachers aren't paid enough. Service providers aren't paid enough and we don't have enough.

SPEAKER_00: 27:18

Professional development. Oh my God. And

SPEAKER_01: 27:20

they're in schools that are falling apart.

SPEAKER_00: 27:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

Right. And so that's kind of the reality of education. You're right. Professional development's a big one.

SPEAKER_00: 27:27

It's huge.

SPEAKER_01: 27:27

They're not, they're not given the time, the money or the resources to go to places to learn the new things that are out there. Yeah. And, and then they're not paid enough to do it. You know, The idea that teachers, you know, they're graduate level educated, you know, and it should be competitive, right? A teacher, you know, you should want to be a teacher. We're not seeing that anymore, especially a special ed teacher.

SPEAKER_00: 27:48

Nobody wants that job. Hard jobs.

SPEAKER_01: 27:50

You know, they're like the best people in the world. So I think a special ed teacher might be paid$1,000 or$2,000 more than a general ed teacher. That's insane. Why would you do that job, you know, and get hit, kicked, slapped, yelled at all day?

SPEAKER_00: 28:03

It's all heart work. I think it's all, I mean, that's the only answer I have is those people have to be have it in them. They're

SPEAKER_01: 28:07

amazing people.

SPEAKER_00: 28:07

Yeah. Yeah. You've got it in you. I was going to ask you, what would you change for, uh, for school teachers, but it's probably the same answer. I would pay

SPEAKER_01: 28:13

them substantially more. Did my partner put you up for that? No, no, no. Well, I mean, school, like I always tell people being a teacher is cool because think about your work life balance. You know, you work 180 days a year, you know, most people work 240. So you've got that in the bag and then your day schedule is not too bad. You're getting off at two, you're getting off at three. I know there's a lot of work in between. I'm not saying they have it easy. But I think, you know, you're, we live in here in San Diego. You cannot pay somebody with that degree, 50, 60,$70,000 a year. It's got to be substantially more, not only to make it viable, but to make it competitive. You want people to want to be teachers when they come out of college. You want that this site, you know, especially when we're talking about STEM, you know, you want these amazing mathematicians and biologists to come into public schools, but we don't do that. And then the more we create charter schools and what the department of education is going the less we're just funding them. It's ridiculous. It is a ridiculous, like vouchers.

SPEAKER_00: 29:11

Segway, right? He just gave it to us. Sure. Oh, you want a segway? Department of Education. Yeah. I know that that's been in the news as of late, something about dissolving an entire Department of Education, which, you know, without saying too much, I'll pass it over to you. Can I

SPEAKER_01: 29:24

use whatever language I want? No, no, no. If you cuss, we will have to mark it as explicit. If you curse, we have to check this little box. So, you remember how earlier we talked about people that don't know what they're doing being in charge of of a system. So if you have people railing against the Department of Education, just ask them, well, what does it do? They have no idea what they're talking about. They waste money, Matt's story. They waste money. Clearly. It's the cycle of dumb that just keeps going on. Here's the deal. The Department of Education is actually pretty simple. It's a funding mechanism. That's its starting point. So when the government, the Congress allocates money for schools, federal funding, which they need for special education, for meals, it goes to the DOE. It makes sense, right? You would need an organization You know, Rand Paul's not going to write a check to Murrieta Valley, right? It's got to go through the DOE because you need that. That's great. And they do a pretty good job of it. But they also do civil rights investigations. That includes predominantly disability stuff. That's huge, right? I mean, there's tons of cases about that. What has ticked people off, I believe, at least as far as I understand, is they also do some investigations into LGBTQ stuff, which is important. That, for some reason, makes people angry. But I think the overarching, what they're trying to do is dissolve, you know, public education to a large degree because the people that are promoting are the same people that are promoting like vouchers in other states, which is, again, So dumb. It's just giving money to rich people. Statistically speaking, that's all it does.

SPEAKER_03: 30:57

So what would be the risk of dissolving it? And I think one of the potential things being thrown out is basically putting it back in the state's hands. So taking the federal, putting it back in the state's hands. What would be the risks of that?

SPEAKER_01: 31:09

Well, I mean, there's a lot of risks. And I'll try to go into them. Again, you still need somebody to write states a check. Because that's what happens. The money doesn't go from the Department of Education into San Diego Unified. It goes into the Department of Education, to the California Department of Education, then it goes into San Diego Unified. That's how it works. So all you're doing, again, is getting rid of this resource that people have. But it's also, sorry, I put my hand, not used to talking to Mike, put my hand in front of him, I heard that. But it's also getting rid of a huge brain trust of people that understand how this funding is working, understand where it's important to go, for the purpose that most people don't understand. And And so it's this mistrust of the Department of Education that's entirely fake. And it's going to result into probably a pretty significant funding crisis where you have states either A, not getting the money they need, or B, getting the money they don't need. If you look at the states that are pushing this, they're the lowest performing states in the country. Oklahoma's last place. They're pushing this. They are last place in reading, writing, math. Alabama, Louisiana, they're the worst states across the board for standardized scores. And they're the ones that are pushing you know in a lot of ways getting rid of this and I think it's a huge mistake and then the civil rights thing is really close to my heart sometimes the work that I can do that attorneys like the grinders that do is not enough we need institutional investigation we need somebody to come in and go holy moly this entire school district is abusing disabled kids that's what they do so it's really important the work they do and it's gotten lost in a lot of you know whatever the rhetoric with the rhetoric and the nonsense that's going on and And just the level of mistrust that people have towards government agencies. So to me, again, I start off by saying I think the mantra of education should be we should be the best that's ever existed. That's the starting point. We are going to create the best public school system that's ever existed. We are going completely opposite of that. We are defunding schools. Charter schools are great, right? I don't like them because of what they do. It takes away public money in an already strained system. and puts it in a place that's not really, there's no benefit. It's not any better. The scores aren't better. The stats aren't better. The services aren't better. Makes no sense. Although I understand people's frustration, you know, and then you look at other States doing vouchers, which is basically giving parents money that they could have used for public school for private school, but they're not going to be able to afford the private school anyways. So like think of, they did it in South Carolina, 93% of it all went to rich people who are, whose kids were already in private school. You know what I mean? So you get these scams that are, are kind of coming. And my large concern is that public education, the dissolving of public education is going to have just, I mean, unimaginable consequences for the next couple of generations.

SPEAKER_03: 33:58

So my understanding is that, um, a lot of education is done at the state level, but special education, a lot of that is done at the DOE federal level through IDEA, which is what you've talked about, which mandates the IEPs. So, um, Any thoughts on that? If we were to abolish the DOE, how that would affect IDEA and the implementation of IEPs?

SPEAKER_01: 34:23

Yeah, well, I mean, it won't. So I don't even know. The president can't dissolve the DOE, but Congress certainly can, and they may. Then there's the IDEA. That's a federal statute. The president couldn't do this. Congress and the Senate would have to do this. I don't see that happening, although everything has been a mystery to me of lately. But assuming they dissolve the DOE, the federal legislation and funding would still be there. And so then they would have to come up with some mechanism to provide that funding to the states. But even with the DOE, we're only getting 13% of the funding. We're missing 30% of the money promised. So I would imagine that might get worse because Congress, we have the IDEA, but Congress is never fully funding it. And so that could get worse. So states are going to get less money because you don't have this great organization advocating because that's one of the things they've been doing give us we need you need to give us the money you're promising which they never do and so we would lose that and I can see that funding resource go away then you lose the civil rights stuff you're going to have larger institutional cases of abuse for sure because the DOE plays such a huge role in trying to weed that out and I can assure you you know as somebody who's involved with a lot of these cases you know this stuff the stuff that you heard about or if you didn't hear about it, you know, the institutionalization of disabled children is absolutely still going on. The abuse of disabled children is absolutely still going on. Just like it was in the 40s, 50s, you know, when public school really started coming around until the 60s when we started, you know, bringing them back into public school. We're going to lose that. And I don't, there's nothing that can take that place. You know, states aren't going to invest in that. Right?

SPEAKER_00: 36:06

Well, and the reason that went away was because it was detrimental. It was clear that there was abusive situations, right? Whether institutions being closed down or things like a regional centers here in California saying, bring your family members back to your community. Why do they need to go so far away from home? far away from their families where the services could be provided locally.

SPEAKER_01: 36:23

One thing of all the stuff Regional Center is now doing, what is the program right now where the kids are actually staying in the home. It's not the self-advocacy program. Self-determination. Self-determination. All these great things that have brought kids out of the fold, out of the institutions, into the community, and then cost less over time and is better for everybody involved.

SPEAKER_00: 36:44

Giving the parent the power of the person, more like a flexible spending account and saying, I think this is what my child needs, let me go find the professionals that can do this. I'm

SPEAKER_01: 36:52

super embarrassed. I'm on the board of regional center.

SPEAKER_00: 36:55

We've been talking a lot. We've been talking a lot. All right. So I'm going to open this up to hopefully what's going to pave our way to, to, uh, to the closing here. Although we've got a few minutes left, but we've got a lot of time left. I do have a, yeah, the studio will be inhabited by other people here soon. But, uh, thinking about ABA and schools, ABA and educational settings, uh, let me give it a little bit of historical context. Um, something back to like the Hughes bill, um, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. little to no flexibility at times. So as a behavior analyst, it's a super challenge, very gratifying when I can see some achievement or make some progress and also just very, very difficult in general and trying to work with the teacher and the school staff and convince them that, you know, this little science approach that I have is going to be a little bit more beneficial than just the behavior management techniques they're using. That can be confrontational. We're not always welcome, right? It takes me months sometimes to feel like I'm part of the fiber on that campus and that setting. That's anywhere from administration to the people in the classroom. It can be very isolating for the student. It can be very isolating for me. I've packed a lot. I'll pass it over to you. Tell us a little bit about your experience with ABA in schools. Where can we do more? Where should we do less?

SPEAKER_01: 38:37

ABA, it used to be more common in the classroom. Then a few years ago, teams didn't want them in there anymore. I think it was because they had a third set of eyes looking at what they were doing. To be frank, they became witnesses to what schools were doing right and wrong. And that irritated me. And I don't mean witnesses in a litigation context, although certainly that happened. It was witnesses at an IEP meeting. You'd have an ABA person in there at RBT and they're going, hey, you guys are creating this problem or you're doing something wrong. And that challenge created turmoil. And then all of a sudden, I don't know when, but it was within the last 10 years, you just saw like, nope, you're not coming into schools anymore. Because a lot of times schools will be like, what, your insurance is paying for it? Awesome. Bring them on. in right more support the better and that stopped so aba can be a really good thing for schools and a lot of parents want that how do they do it you've got to start off with assessments you've got to start off with being able to show that the student's not making any progress especially behaviorally and that aba is going to be the required mode of intervention usually it's we're going to need a functional behavioral assessment you guys know that and that fba is going to have to show that listen without somebody who has this level of training this will not work. And so that's how we're able to get that in. But it's usually a process that takes time because districts will provide a one-to-one aid or a SCIA, pretty untrained. And if you're in San Diego Unified, they'll say they have a one-to-one aid, but they don't. It's called supplemental support. They know that. It's not controversial. If you have supplemental support on your IEP, you most certainly do not have a one-to-one aid. You need to know

SPEAKER_03: 40:13

that. It's specifically not assigned to a student, right? It's assigned to a classroom.

SPEAKER_00: 40:16

That means there's extra support in the classroom in the event And your child needs it. But yeah, they were already there. I worked with a

SPEAKER_01: 40:23

family and there were 13 kids in a classroom. All of them had like 24 hours of supplemental support on their IEP. And there was one aid in there. We're like, well, that's impossible. We were able to get actually services into the class. So, but ABA plays a huge role in, you know, obviously the behavioral intervention of a student on their IEP through a behavioral intervention plan. In order to get there, if you believe you need that level of care, you must start off with assessments and you but on top of that you have to show that what the district's been doing is not working so if you have services in your IEP right now and you know it's not perfect progress but you're seeing progress probably not going to be able to get ABA in however if I'm able to show look over the last two years or the last year behavior's been the same you've been providing supplemental support or one donate we did an FBA it's going to have to be an independent one and it shows that this is needed we have a higher likelihood of getting that ABA in the classroom it's a tough fight I've actually found that getting ABA in a classroom is tougher than getting it on public school. For sure. For sure. And it can't be a cost issue. So I don't know why that is. But I've actually had a case, oh gosh, last month, where we wanted the ABA in the class. They offered us a non-public school. Just for context, it was substantially more expensive.

SPEAKER_00: 41:40

Yeah, that's a lot

SPEAKER_01: 41:41

more. You know, I mean, ABA, I don't remember what it came to, but they were just, they didn't tell me why. I'm like, well, why? And the parent definitely wanted it. They were like, yes, give me that. They knew the school. It was TIEE, great school. And they They were like, yes, give me that. So I was like, are you sure? Because we could do this. And they were like, I mean, they turned to, they did a 180 on me. They're like, no, we want the non-public school. I'm like, okay. So that's what we did. And that was in lieu of the ABA, which I thought would have been, I thought was better. I actually kind of said, are you sure? Because general education environment, typical peers, all this stuff. And there was no talking. There was no talking. They were like, nope, this is what we've always wanted. This was the ultimate goal. Make the ultimate goal. And so I had to do what my clients wanted. And that's what happened. But But it works really well. It works really well. I think it can be counterproductive to have an untrained one-to-one aid in the IEP. And I've most certainly seen a one-to-one aid come in and the behaviors escalate. We actually see that more often than not. Just because to do what you guys do requires a significant amount of training.

SPEAKER_00: 42:40

Well, and to come in and see the behaviors escalate, I mean, you really need somebody to be able to speak to that. So it's not unseen that we would come in and apply certain interventions. And because we're hitting the function of the behavior, we see a increase right but that's also our affirmation of the consequent to say yeah that's that's our that's our manipulation here experimentally so we've just hit the correct button so fear not it's going up but we know what we're doing when you see I've

SPEAKER_01: 43:06

seen AIDS where they're just triggering the kid for two years and the behavior gets worse I'm sure you guys have sure that's consistent too and it's not the AIDS fault they didn't know any better

SPEAKER_03: 43:14

You know what I mean? A lot of times, like in the example you gave, it's just easier to get rid of the kid, right? Because then the kid's the problem versus the teacher that may be able to do something differently. It's easier to just get rid of the kid and not have

SPEAKER_01: 43:23

to. That's what they always do at a young age. That's why a lot of kids, especially kindergarten to like third grade, they're pulled to a special education class. And a lot of times parents are promised, well, this has the correct support, so we're going to put them here as opposed to providing that support in the classroom.

SPEAKER_03: 43:36

Which is challenging because like my partners talked about that every year or even less than a year, every bit that that child is away from the curriculum they're getting farther away from the curriculum so there's that that chasm is getting larger and larger so it's actually becoming harder to get them back into generalization huge

SPEAKER_01: 43:52

yeah I mean if you're looking if you're a parent and your child is on the autism spectrum right and they have pretty significant behaviors but cognitively they're pretty average I would be very hesitant to pull them out of a general ed setting and do everything I can to keep them in the tip because you're because what's going to happen is you're going to go into a special ed setting the coursework is going to be modified to far less than you can do and then even if we get your behaviors under control in a year or two now you're three years behind all your other peers which is by the way also creates behaviors you know and sometimes you'll see a regression when we do that so you got to be real cautious depending on what you're dealing with before you start restricting kids into special ed

SPEAKER_00: 44:28

I don't think I'm trying to think in my career how often it's probably less than a handful of times that I've seen a student go from a non-public campus back onto a comprehensive campus so I mean that's a that's a hard shift to your point as a parent I think you need to understand that that once you go on that direction that might be where you stay. And it's just fine because if that's what your child, your student needs, then great. But I think that's something that parents in my career failed to understand. It's going, you know, that is not a comprehensive campus. That is a more restrictive setting. However, that's what your child needs. Go for it. Just know that the the, the move in the other direction. I mean, I've maybe seen it five, four or five times. I've seen it a

SPEAKER_01: 45:08

little more than that, but yeah, it's the same thing. It's the end result. There are some non-public schools that just get it right. And they serve more typically developing peers and the kids don't have a lot of problems, but that social piece, man, when, when, when a kid's environment has been so isolated for so long, like getting beyond that later in life becomes very difficult. And so parents rightly so are very uncomfortable you know because they're scared for their children I get it you know but sometimes you have to and this isn't every kid you have to think more about okay maybe my son or daughter needs to go through this experience so that they can get a job someday and function okay at that job you know they can you know go to college someday you know and function in college the social isolation at some non-public schools has been a huge issue and you're right they don't often come back they go there but you know what usually the parent has been dealing with a public school and they're so angry they don't care Because the non-public school is like a breath of fresh

SPEAKER_00: 46:04

air. And they're going to handle it. The non-public school is usually going to handle everything. Yes, to let you know when there's trouble, but they're letting you know there's trouble because they're taking care of it, not because they're seeking a meeting to move your kid to a more restrictive setting. But

SPEAKER_01: 46:15

why can't a public school do what a non-public school does? Because we see really good ones. Now, a friend of mine who owns one, this is probably controversial, she says the reason we can do what public schools do with less money is because we can fire people. I don't... That's that. And by the way, this person, I'm not going to throw them under the bus. They run probably one of the best non-public schools. And she says that consistently. She goes, they fire fast at this non-public school. If they don't fit, they're gone. And because we can get rid of people we don't think are awesome, that becomes a problem. And the cases that I've dealt with, I mean, there are cases I have where, I mean, these people have been called out in a decision for lying and they were given a promotion. And so it's very difficult. You guys know this, to get rid of bad actors and public schools. Teachers will tell you

SPEAKER_03: 47:04

that. My partner's principal over her time there had multiple teachers physically hit students and it's hard to even get them out. It's just transferring. It's so difficult.

SPEAKER_00: 47:16

That is crazy. Well, gentlemen, we've covered a lot of ground. You got some more stuff? We got time.

SPEAKER_03: 47:20

Just a couple of things. Going back, we talked about the issues that you run into with schools. On the parent side of things, what are some things that you would advise Did you see maybe parents calling and having a misunderstanding? You've talked about the Cadillac. Maybe the schools are required to provide a Honda Civic, not a Cadillac. What are some things you would advise parents or you see a lot on your end of parents expecting or calling you and you're like, no.

SPEAKER_01: 47:49

The two that I see a lot are going to, and I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but to a small degree, is a non-public school. I think their child's entitled to a non-public school when they're not, and they think their child needs a one-to-one aid when they don't. Those are the two biggest ones by far and I mean and I've seen that for years you know and you know a non-public school is basically there legally speaking you're never going to get it unless the student's been there just need to know that but a non-public school is there when every other service has not worked in the school okay you've tried general ed you've tried special ed you've tried the one-to-one aid you know you've tried all the programs the district has then maybe you can get the non-public school okay but to be clear a court won't put you there okay and then with the one-to-one aid again that is frustration parents believe that a one-to-one aid is a cure for everything and it often is not and so to me the to resolve that just as you would resolve the issue with the school's not doing enough you bring it right back you cycle it right back to okay something's wrong you don't know the answer to that I don't know the answer to that let's go bring in a professional to tell us what's needed and that's the that right there is the third thing but the easiest fixable you know I'm a lawyer I've been doing this for a long time I I teach this stuff. I know what I'm talking about. I didn't make the decision that my son needed speech services. I knew enough to know something was wrong, and I went out and figured out the answer. As a parent, you can know something's wrong, but do not rise or take this to the level of you know the cure. Go get the evidence you need, right? That's going to make your case a lot stronger, and it's going to make your decision a lot better, right? So if you believe your kid needs a one-to-one aid, or you believe your, whatever it is, a reading program or speech, go get the assessment. And here's the deal. If you do that, in the district, you get an IE. And the IE gives you, this is what the district needs to do. And they don't do it, then a lawyer. Because that makes my case a thousand times easier. Most of the time, a lawyer on the other side is going to look at the IE and go, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 49:50

That was going to be my next question is, Wendy, we've talked a little bit about advocacy. We've talked about requesting IEs. When would you tell a parent to contact a special education attorney?

SPEAKER_01: 49:59

Honestly, the starting point is, you know, if you have any questions for the lawyers here in San Diego, they're going to answer them. But when a lawyer comes into play is when the district is not doing something they should be doing. But remember that we have to be able to prove that they're not doing that. And if it's just you telling me, I can certainly look at the case like a lack of progress. You're telling me there's a lack of progress. That's easy. I can look at three IEPs and go, there's a lack of progress in the

SPEAKER_02: 50:20

problem.

SPEAKER_01: 50:21

Honestly, that's fine. But still, I'm still going to need to figure out what the student needs. Because one of the things I hate is, okay, I see a lack of progress for three years. We sue a district. They give us what's called compensatory education or money for private tutoring. The IEP is still there. We got to fix that. So we still have to answer those two questions. So if you're seeing a lack of progress like that, definitely a lawyer. But on top of that, if the district is clearly not doing something you think they should be doing, probably time to get a That is the dispute we're trying to resolve.

SPEAKER_03: 50:52

Okay. So IE is really important. Looking at the progress thing on top of that, if you're not able to really get on top of that, it might be a good time. You also talked about services. The last thing that I wanted to bring up and ask you to speak on a little bit is one of my favorite handouts that I would give to my parents and my parent groups is your IEP handbook pocketbook. Oh, yeah. Kind of IEPs for dummies, for lack of a better term. It was a really well-written document. I don't know if you want to say where they can find it, but also maybe if you could just give a couple of bangers or a couple. I know you mentioned the audio recordings, the 30 days.

SPEAKER_01: 51:30

You're taking all the good ones. Things

SPEAKER_03: 51:31

like that. If you want to mention a couple of the bangers and where they can find it, iCamber. recommend this resource enough?

SPEAKER_01: 51:36

So we give those out for free. You can just email my office. It's info at calsped.com and we'll send you a bunch. We send them to all kinds of places and we have them in English and Spanish. And it's basically just a shortened version of the procedural safeguards. And you know, it illustrates you can audio record an IEP. You ask for an IEP, they have to hold it in 30 days. If they ask for an assessment, they have to give you an assessment plan in 15 days. They have to complete the assessments in 60 days. You have the right to request independent educational evaluations You have the right to disagree with an IEP. You have the right to file due process. There's 15 in there that I'm sure I'm missing, but those are the main ones that people don't understand. You can call an IEP as many times as you want. I know a parent that calls one, two, or three times minimum a year. They have to do it. There's no maximum limit here. And if you're having issues, you know, any parent, I would tell them, if you're having issues with the IEP team, call an IEP meeting first. Go sit down, express those issues, audio record the meeting, and then go from there. That's the starting point. Parents that only have annual IEPs meetings, but they're frustrated with the process, they're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_03: 52:39

Yeah, I would tell a lot of my parents to, if there's a change or they're not seeing progress, and a lot of times IEP would be like in the spring or April or May. And what would happen is they would get to April or May and the child wouldn't have progress. And they're like, oh, well, we'll try again next year. It's like, well, you've lost the whole year. Maybe request an IEP in October, November, December, so that you can see where they're at. So you don't get to the end of the year. And then you're like, well, we'll try again next year. Well, what happened to this year?

SPEAKER_01: 53:02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even with my son, we had several times a year, we'd have an IEP. And you can also ask for an early triennial. So the district's required to assess every three years. But if you feel like nobody's having an answer to your problem, instead of going IEEs, you could go, well, let's do an early triennial. So instead of doing it next year, we're going to do it this year, something like that. So just repeating those requests for assessments to try to get the answers. I think the underlying all of this is you need to be informed. And the question is how to get informed. And so you do this by going through, okay, something's wrong. I don't see progress. I don't know what to do because I'm not a reading specialist. So I'm going to call an IEP, meaning I'm going to ask. If I don't like the answer to that, okay, maybe I'm going to go through the assessment process. Okay, I don't like the assessments they did. Now I'm going to go through the independent assessment process. At one of those junctures right there, you're going to get the answer of what's needed. And then the question is, does the district do those services that you're requesting, whatever it is, or do they not? The point at what they do not or when they do not, that's when a lawyer comes into play.

SPEAKER_03: 54:02

And if somebody, and no way do we do this as an advertisement, but if somebody does want to reach out to you, how would they get in touch with you for legal representation?

SPEAKER_01: 54:10

There are two ways to get in touch with me. You can just call my office, which is 858-433-1060. I had to think about that.

SPEAKER_00: 54:17

You got to call yourself some more. Yeah, I know. Remember that number. I can never do. Can you say that again? Say it again, please.

SPEAKER_01: 54:22

Yeah, sure. Sorry. It's 858-433-1060. 433-1060, or you can just email us. And it's info at calsped.com. It's just info at calsped.com. Right on. Yeah. And call a bunch of attorneys by the way. I'm going to shout out to my people here that do this work. You should interview a couple. I usually do that with parents. Like, you know, you may not like me, right? That's okay. We have good attorneys here in San Diego. So if you just Google special education attorney San Diego, there's some really great people on there. so interview a few see who you like

SPEAKER_00: 54:57

well gentlemen we uh sped through an entire two hours without even yeah it's been two hours i know that's what happens here we just get sucked up into the aba vortex so uh matt thank you so much for all the information on uh this is parent behavior and teacher behavior we talked about today but certainly advocacy and how to stay up to date with your child's iep and what's going on with them at school and then if it's not going well who to call and what resources to seek i get the feeling we're going to see mr story back here at some point I'd love to be

SPEAKER_01: 55:24

here again. And then crack one of those things open because he legitimately has a great bourbon collection.

SPEAKER_00: 55:30

Which, Dan, here we go. Are we doing this? Okay, so we always like to say... So, Dan, you've got to do the wrap-up again here. So keep up with your child's IEP and look at their progress. Request as many IEPs as you think are necessary throughout the year to check in on your child's progress. Support your school staff and...

SPEAKER_03: 55:47

Always analyze responsibly. Cheers. All

SPEAKER_00: 55:51

right.

SPEAKER_03: 55:51

Thanks.

SPEAKER_01: 55:51

Thanks,

SPEAKER_00: 55:53

guys. ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.