Kinks, Communication, Compassion and ABA: A Pour with Rachel Benson, Part I

ABA is proud to present Rachel Benson (Part 1 of 2):

*PLEASE NOTE this content is marked 'explicit' only so listeners can be aware that it presents information on sex and sexuality. 

Rachel Benson is a Board Certified Behavior Analyst (BCBA) with a Master's degree in Education specializing in Applied Behavior Analysis. She also holds certifications as a Sexuality Educator (CSE) and Certified Behavioral Sexologist (CBS), and is a professional member of the American Association for Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT).

Rachel is passionate about applying the principles of ABA within the field of sexuality. She works as a Sexual Behavior Analyst at Empowered: A Center for Sexuality, where she provides direct therapy and consultative services to ABA teams, caregivers, and staff. Her expertise encompasses a wide range of topics, including human sexuality, kinks/fetishes, autism, sociosexual skills, assistance with flirting and dating, pleasure-related skill building, and compassionate, affirming practices. Rachel is dedicated to empowering individuals and upholding their individuality, including those with queer identities. She has worked extensively with neurodivergent populations for over 11 years in various settings.

Tune in as Rachel shares her unique insights and experience in applying ABA principles to foster sexual health, safety, and empowerment for all. Keep it fun, keep it consensual and ALWAYS analyze responsibly. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:10

Welcome to ABA on TAC, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best-tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on TAC. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_05: 0:54

Alright, alright, alright. Welcome back to yet another installment of ABA on tap. I am your ever gracious co-host, Mike Rubio, along with Mr. Dan, as usual. Mr. Dan, good to see you, sir. How are you? Doing great.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08

How are you doing, Mike?

SPEAKER_05: 1:09

I'm doing fantastic and super energized and excited for today's guest. Um, we've been learning so much from all our guests, and in this case, I am ready for full education, just really dealing with a content expert in um an area that is super important to any and all of us, and then very specific and very important, I would say, within our work as applied behavior analysts, and something we've bantered about and talked about and alluded to, but never had the uh the distinct privilege of learning more about. So, Mr. Dan, what what are we talking about today? Talking about sex or sexuality, I guess would be a better way to more professional way to put that. That sounds like a song. Like a song, something that something talk about. Is that the okay? Um, but yeah, no, we're really, really excited. Uh, today's guest uh has a lot to teach us about this uh particular area and how it's applied in our field as behavior analysts. So without further ado, excited to introduce Rachel Benson. Rachel, thank you so much for your time. Uh really appreciate you. We we keep the Sunday recording schedule. Uh, we know it's probably a nice sunny day out there, and you're taking a couple of hours to talk with us. Uh, we'll make this really fun, and we can't wait to learn from you. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00: 2:36

I'm doing good. Thank you guys for for having me on. And it is ungodly hot here, so I am good to be in the AC and and having some good conversations.

SPEAKER_05: 2:48

Excellent. Well, we'll really, again, we really appreciate it. Um, we want to kick off because you've got such an interesting uh content expertise, in my opinion. Um, want to know your origin story, uh, all the work you've done leading up to what you do now, because we find as we meet more and more exciting young professionals that there is uh always an interesting origin story. People have covered a lot of ground and then somehow come across something like sexuality and said, Wow, I see a lot of need in this area, a lot of need for exploration, for further research, uh, just for other applied strategies that actually work for people that uh might be encountering very true to life challenges or whatever it may be regarding this very large umbrella of sexuality, which I'm sure you're gonna help us understand a whole lot better. So start from the beginning and then tell us uh how we got to where we're at and we'll explore from there.

SPEAKER_00: 3:45

Yeah, so I started ABA career kind of how I feel like everybody does in the autism sector, early intervention. I was working for um more of like a big box uh company, and we randomly got a couple older teens in our services, and I wasn't afraid to take them on. And so we were working on a lot of social skills, and I noticed a large deficit in education on dating and consent and internet safety and things like that. So I started doing my own research, taking some CEUs to try and you know make sure I was competent to be able to teach those skills and you know, fighting with insurance on the necessity of those skills uh to have a full life. Yeah. Um, and then admittedly was getting a little burnt out in my role um as a BCBA. So I looked at some other options and was like, oh, there's a sex education certification to be a sex educator. So I looked into that some more, and then um during COVID, I took a couple CEU workshops with um who is now my boss, Nicholas Myo I Thair, um, and he does a lot of stuff with sexuality and was doing some workshops, like I said, during COVID. So talked with him a bit on getting certified. There is um a certification board called ASECT, which is American Soci Association for Sexuality Counselors, educators, and therapists. So then I began my journey of getting ASEC certified. Um, and then when I moved, I was in California at the time, moved to St. Louis area, which is where Nicholas's company empowered a center for sexuality is based, reached out to him and he had a job opening. So then I started working there and haven't looked back.

SPEAKER_05: 6:05

The rest is history. Where in California were you?

SPEAKER_00: 6:08

I was in Fresno.

SPEAKER_05: 6:10

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 6:11

Lovely Fresno.

SPEAKER_05: 6:13

Hey, shout out to Fresno.

SPEAKER_03: 6:14

I said lovely Fresno, shout out to Fresno.

SPEAKER_05: 6:18

Yeah, and you were doing that's where you were doing uh more. I liked your phrasing the big box. I've never heard that. I love that phrase. I'm still that yeah, yeah, we'll be using that again, the big box.

SPEAKER_01: 6:28

Feel free to.

SPEAKER_05: 6:28

Yeah, that's fair enough. It's a big box. There can be a lot in there, and it can be uh more or less organized. Uh, so how long have you been doing uh your current work in the St. Louis area?

SPEAKER_00: 6:40

Three years.

SPEAKER_05: 6:41

Three years. Okay. Um tell us a little bit more then. Let's we'll take a step back, and and not that you have to define this comprehensively, but if you were to give us a working definition of sexuality as it applies to all the different things that you might help address with clients, yeah, get us started with that and and then we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

Yeah, so sexuality is super all-encompassing, depending on how we're defining it, but you know, it's in relation to what someone's biological gender might be. It might be their personal gender identity, their sexual attraction, orientation. Um, kind of depends on which path we're going down.

SPEAKER_03: 7:25

And then so you got a certification on that. Can you speak a little bit about what a certification on sexuality is, teaches? Um, yeah, can you speak to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00: 7:37

Yeah. So with the ASEX certification that I have, um, you have to do so many clock hours of education around the field of sexuality, and then so many clock hours on like how to teach it and different, you know, it goes through different demographics and populations, different skill sets or problems you might come across, and then um client hours, of course, you have to clock, and then um supervision as well. And then I also have um my certification in behavioral sexology. So I have a level one and level two certification in that, and that was similar in terms of having so many client hours, so many supervision hours, and then so many education components as well.

SPEAKER_03: 8:30

Behavioral sexology, never heard of that one before. Is that so uh is the material and the content pretty similar to the um other certification?

SPEAKER_00: 8:38

No, so that's the thing with the ASEC, it's not behavioral at all. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, so it was a little different to be going down that route when I was deciding if I was staying in the field or not, because it was like I said, I mean, you can pull behavioral components from it, but it was not behavior-based, whereas the certified behavioral sexology program is all behavior-based.

SPEAKER_05: 9:05

All right. So then your uh your clients, your patients, if you will, it's not specific to any given diagnosis. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00: 9:13

Correct, yeah. So um there's some autistic individuals, um with just intellectual disability, ADHD, anxiety, depression, kind of the whole gamut.

SPEAKER_03: 10:09

Interesting. So you were in the field uh working as a BCBA, like you said, for the big box uh company, kind of like in the more traditional sense. You had some teenagers, um, they had some behavioral challenges that kind of led you um down this pathway. Um can you speak to any of those specific challenges? Um, I remember one of literally the first client I ever worked with um was with this gentleman like 20 years ago. Um, and it may or may not be along along these lines, but I remember um he sp basically spent like six hours with us because we were his non-public school, and he was a teenager and he started masturbating, and the staff was like kind of felt like it was the end of the world, didn't know what to do with it. And I remember Mike kind of being like, Well, that's what teenage boys do. It's true. So yeah, can you can you speak to like what what that looked like with those first um you know, clients, what were some of the behaviors that uh may have needed to get addressed, or what sent you down that line?

SPEAKER_00: 11:14

Yeah, so some of the first ones was just kind of just basic boundaries and consent. Like we don't we don't touch other individuals, we don't um take their pictures off the internet and then show them around to other people. Um we can't disrobe in the clinic or in the grocery store. Um a lot there uh public solo sex masturbation, depending on what verbiage you want to use, is very common. Um, especially now what I do, I don't work with as many, barely ever have a minor. Most of the time they're 18 and above.

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 11:56

And uh that is very common in the group home settings, and yeah, people don't always know what to do, but really thinking like, well, they're just a teenage boy or human is the best first step because it is just humanizing the behavior.

SPEAKER_05: 12:11

Right. Right. Um so you mentioned something in terms of uh I guess that you know the group home setting and and you the way you're alluding to it, um, the notion that you might be lending uh preemptive education to these individuals, and then you're gonna find yourself with them expressing this behavior in the moment. Will you talk a little bit about that balance in terms of determining you know how much who can and how much education before the or you know, antecedent-based strategies, how much education you can lend to somebody, and then how that translates into now your reactive strategy, knowing that public, you know, that can be misconstrued. That could lead to other consequences that we're actively trying to avoid for certain individuals. I mean, there's so much to consider there. So I'll I'll pass it over to you and see how you can decipher that uh hopefully somewhat clear question.

SPEAKER_00: 13:03

So unfortunately, when we're getting our clients, we work with the Department of Mental Health uh through the state of Missouri. So if they're coming to us, there's already been a problem. So we don't have the luxury of getting in and putting in a lot of antecedent strategies prior to there being something that happened.

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 13:26

Yeah. So then we come in and we're reactive choice, and then we try to put in antecedent strategies at where then the education factor comes in, a lot of staff training, um, because staff does they get uncomfortable and it's understandable. You know, a lot of staff haven't had a lot of education themselves, and then you have to address that on top of them working through any personal bias that might show up, and then working with the client themselves on those skills and education and just kind of bringing it all together.

SPEAKER_03: 14:04

That may so that was gonna be my question is how do you find your clients? Did they call you and they're like, I'm having some struggles, but it sounds like you get referred then uh by the state, basically. All of your clientele is referred from the state.

SPEAKER_00: 14:16

So not all. About um, I would say about three quarters of my personal caseload is through the DMH system with the state, and then um the other quarter, sometimes to half, um, people find my profile on the internet and ask for for help with things. So they're more, I don't want to say neurotypical because a lot of them have some kind of diagnosis um from the DSM, but they are their own guardians, they're you know, they're not in the system, things like that. So sometimes it's couples, sometimes it's individual, uh, but that so it kind of is split between them.

SPEAKER_03: 14:57

And what might an individual that reaches out to you um be looking for help with specifically like understanding their own gender identity, understanding how to interact um with other people without maybe they're getting like they're not having success finding a mate or like what what are some things that people consistently or commonly, I guess, reach out to you about?

SPEAKER_00: 15:18

Yeah, so those are are all parts of it. Um, you know, whether they have some some social anxieties, so they're trying to get some help with social skills, dating skills. Um I've had people reach out um for struggles and challenges with relationships, whether they're partnered up currently or they can't keep a partner because of either what they're deeming a performance issue, or they um desire discrepancies are a big one that I see with couples. You know, someone maybe has a higher desire to have sex, someone else doesn't. How do you navigate that and you know, not have resentment and that? I've had I've done some shaping with solo sex, both with the DMH system and individuals. Um, so it's kind of just a huge spectrum of behaviors.

SPEAKER_03: 16:20

Okay, that that wow, that is a huge spectrum, especially since you're doing kind of the private side of things and the state-based side of things. Is there a big discrepancy with what you're allowed to do? Like with the state-based side of things, do you have as much of a free reign as you do on the non-state-based side? Or are they like you need to do this? This is what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05: 16:38

You're avoiding some big consequences sometimes on the state side. Like this, these things cannot happen any further, right? It's a it's a pretty strong limit you're facing, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00: 16:48

It's it gets trickier because uh on the state side, most of the time, I won't say all the time, but most of the time, the individual that I'm working with is not their own guardian. So they a small percentage they're with either a biological relative or something along those time along those lines, but most of the time they have a court-based guardian. So then a major challenge is bringing out my recommendations that sometimes can make people uncomfortable, and then having to work through people's uncomfortableness and their bias with accepting those recommendations. So a lot of times the challenges come with differences in values between the client themselves and then their system.

SPEAKER_03: 17:40

Interesting. So could could you speak to that at all? Like um, maybe like a recommendation that you can think back of in the past. Like I was, I remember, you know, the client that I talked about with Mike. We talked about, okay, well, we can try to fight this masturbation thing, or we can try to allow for, okay, can we just have you do it in the bathroom or something like that?

SPEAKER_01: 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:00

Um, so that was a recommendation that kind of made people uncomfortable. And and you talked about it a little earlier when you said humanizing it. Um again, I know we're not gonna spend all the time talking about autism, um, but with a lot of the people that we work with, there can be a cognitive delay, but there's not a biological delay. So people can get kind of wrapped up in and thinking, well, maybe this person cognitively acts like they're six or seven or whatever when they're really 15, but biologically they're really 15 and they have 15-year-old desires, and that can be really interesting and lead to some interesting discussions. So that led to some uncomfortabilities on some of the staffs that we worked with. And so you talked about um that being like on the conservatorship end and and talking about that. Can you are you able to speak to any of maybe suggestions that you can remember um that may not have been met the way that you thought they were gonna be or led to some dis further discussions with the caregivers or conservatives?

SPEAKER_05: 18:54

People are just like stop it, make them stop that. I I can imagine. You're getting you're getting a lot of that. You're like, uh yeah, you tell me the functionally equivalent replacement behavior. Tell me what's gonna compete right now. Anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 19:07

We have a saying of like once the button's pushed, you can't you can't unpush it. Once anybody discovers that, it's it's hard to take it away.

SPEAKER_05: 19:19

Yeah, yeah, you can't unpush it. I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 19:21

Yeah, you can't unpush the and the hormones are gonna hormone, yeah. Like you said, regardless of the age, hormones are gonna do their thing.

SPEAKER_05: 19:29

We talk about developmental delays, and developmentally, those things don't seem to experience that notion of delay that they're right on time. So anyway, we interrupted. You were gonna explain.

SPEAKER_00: 19:39

Oh, no, you're gonna um so yeah, uh some pushback with with solo sex procedures. Um, and that I think typically comes from staff panicking that they're gonna be intimately involved with those things, but we're like, no, no, no, no, no. This is like we're writing out a TA, or we have certain videos that we have license to to show and work with. And and staff you leave, right? Like we're not involving staff, we're not, there is zero contact, any of that. So once that's explained, sometimes the anxiety comes down. Okay. Um, a hot issue is always pornography. Access to pornography is I just had a discussion this past week um about that with a court guardian who was not on board. Um, so it it is that's super common. I've gotten fired from a case for that, for being a for suggesting allowing them to watch legal pornography. Um so that's usually the big one. Anything that has to do with um not any, well, I shouldn't say anything. Another one often is um, you know, if if maybe the court guardian is a little bit more conservative or religious based, and the client is more has a queer identity, a lot of times that can be something we have to navigate and work through um in affirming that and what access they're allowed in the community to that community or you know, in that community. Um, so yeah, those are usually the big ones.

SPEAKER_05: 21:19

Oh, that's talk about uh I hope this doesn't sound overly facetious, but talk about your factor analysis. I mean, that is just all the different variables that you're having to consider, uh, that's remarkable. Uh how I'm not even sure how to formulate this question, but on any given day, you know, how do you prioritize I mean again, it's a really open-ended question. I guess it depends on every circumstance. But yeah, how how do you is there any aspect of what you do in that factor analysis that you might you have found it's always good to put these things first, or is always good to resolve that area next?

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

Anything that's illegal.

SPEAKER_05: 21:57

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:58

Um, or can lead to uh, you know, an illegal charge, or if something's out in the community and can lead to a safety or thing, or anything that's a risky behavior, um, those are definitely ones that we're going to to address first. And sometimes it is putting heavy restrictions in place. You know, if they're looking up child pornography but they're not understanding why it's wrong, then we might put internet restrictions in place and then walk those backwards. Or if they're getting catfished on the internet, again, might put some restrictions in place until we can educate and then walk those restrictions backwards.

SPEAKER_03: 22:39

Wow, okay. And so wow, that's so you might actually put like uh, or I guess you wouldn't do it yourself, probably, but you would advise the guardian to put some sort of internet restriction on not being allowed to look at basically any pornography until they're able to differentiate what is legal and what's not.

SPEAKER_00: 23:00

So I I'm typically a part of it because they especially if they have a court guardian, they have to go through a review system, like some kind of ethical board, to have restrictions put in place to ensure that they're not losing just basic human rights.

SPEAKER_01: 23:14

Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 23:15

Um, and so in order to get that approved, you usually have to have some kind of reduction plan at least somewhat lined out. Um, so I help create the reduction plan because it's usually based off of the education that I'm giving. And then um we go through those. And and typically it's not necessarily that we do a full stop on pornography, it's that we might change the the method of consumption. So if they're really anytime they're on the internet, that's what they're looking up is something related to child pornography, then maybe we just do DVDs, magazines, something along those lines, and just not have the internet access. So go a little bit more old school than what people typically do nowadays.

SPEAKER_03: 24:08

And is that something? Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Is that something you're like legally, excuse my ignorance, legally required to report if you have a client that's like looking at child pornography? Do you have to report that to authorities or something like that?

SPEAKER_00: 24:20

So again, by the time I come in, it typically already has been reported to some chain of command. Um, and a lot of times the legal system has been involved. Um, sometimes that's why I'm there is because it's mandated. Um, other times I'm there as like uh, hey, do this and you won't get the charges, or do this and hopefully we won't have anything else that we have to rapport. But most of the time the legal system has already been involved.

SPEAKER_05: 24:51

Gotcha. Wow, talking about negative reinforcement contingencies there, right? Make this go away. Oh, yeah. Do you find um man, and I I loved your phrasing. I think that I'm gonna value our ignorance today because they're I mean, again, you're you're covering so many different uh circumstances and so many different permutations of circumstances in terms of motivations, um, the idea of punishment, uh this is all very, very intriguing. From a motivational perspective, um, do you find that that step down works? So if you're looking at um child porn on the internet and now your step down clearly legally can't be child porn on DVD or or paper, what is typically the the uh replacement stimulus? What what have you found that might might work?

SPEAKER_00: 25:44

Yeah, so a lot of times um there's different pornography that tends to skew using like younger age, like freshly 18. So it's still legal, they just look really young, you know, like Hustler Barely Legal, um back when Girls Gone Wild was a thing, you know, like the all of that stuff, it's still legal pornography, but they look young. Um, you can also throw in um if they like cartoon-based stuff, a lot of hentai pornography, which is based off of anime um type drawing, is uh sometimes that skews a little bit younger as well. So that is is a route you can take. Sometimes just the educating on like, hey, we need to learn how to differentiate and discriminate between ages. So then that's what we teach is like, is this a child, is this a teenager, is this an adult? And then we go through what what's allowed in each of those groupings of people, and then there becomes an again, maybe they just were never told. Or sadly, in in the disability world, a lot of times they people are their peers, which I use that word loosely, are younger. They're put with a younger age group because maybe they're not as developmentally on track with some of their age-appropriate peers. So then that kind of messes up the education factor on who they're allowed to do things with if they're only with these certain groups of individuals. So working on that too, of changing their social surroundings.

SPEAKER_05: 27:30

Well, and then and what I mean, this is what a what an interesting premise. I don't know if I'll have a question, but the idea that developmentally there might be certain inhibitory or disinhibitory functions that are or aren't available, and now socially you're being exposed to younger peers. It I mean, it just makes me think of, you know, that that big ugly stat in terms of uh high percentage of of uh uh disabled, developmentally disabled people that end up being in some abuse situation, sexual or otherwise. And these are all related to what you're discussing there, this really well-intended let's put you in situations that um are are uh, for lack of better phrasing, cognitively appropriate based on some level of interaction and other measure, and then we're inadvertently feeding into this other risk that's out there. Is is there a way to reconcile that? Again, I'm not even sure if I asked a a good question there, but I mean you're you're bringing up a really good um overarching topic that is very difficult for us to consider, yet we're actively doing things that might be filling that tiny little percentage gap, and then all of a sudden we we could have done something differently, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 28:43

Yeah, and I think it just takes recognition that that is something that happens in whether consciously or subconsciously, it it's super common, especially in residential settings, group home settings, where their their day hab programs go from like 16 and up. Well, then now you have this group of people that you're 18 and up can't do some of this stuff with. But one, have they ever been told that? And then two, you're you're encouraging these relationships to happen, but then feelings and hormones and things occur, and they're gonna be kids and teenagers and young adults and and do and act on them, and then they get in trouble, and then they get kicked out of date program, and they don't get to see their friends anymore.

SPEAKER_05: 29:31

And it's the circular piece. So now it's as easy as they've never been told, but we're gonna maybe attribute it to all these other things that are on this piece of paper that yes, maybe related, but it was as easy as saying, Hey, I need to tell you about this, and I'm not sure that you quite understand these parameters socially or otherwise, but the only way you're going to is if I demonstrate them to you somehow. Um, and and I mean I love that you keep saying that phrase because I think that's important to for to emphasize. It's as easy as just exposing the exposing the client to the information somehow, some way, and then adjusting from there.

SPEAKER_00: 30:09

And again, I'm you know, again, not being overly I'd be out of a job and I'd be okay with that if it's that easy.

SPEAKER_05: 30:15

Talk about a parsimonious approach, right? Have you told them? Maybe we nobody nobody told them, right? Maybe nobody told them.

SPEAKER_03: 30:22

So well, I've heard um uh a stat, I forget the number, but a ridiculously high percent of teenagers, I guess their first encounter with anything sexual is on porn.

SPEAKER_05: 30:31

Because people aren't talking about it's pretty young now, too, right? Like super young.

SPEAKER_03: 30:34

And it's probably higher in the disability community because maybe the parents aren't thinking again, because of the discrepancy between potentially the cognitive age and the biological age. Uh, even parents of like a neurotypical individual probably don't want to broach that subject, but I imagine it's even more challenging. Is that something that you've experienced? Um, do you experience just people's first interactions are with porn? That's all they really know. So maybe they have this weird, devious or weird or just lack of understanding of relationships, maybe um sexual encounters, stuff like that, because the only information they have is through pornography.

SPEAKER_00: 31:12

Absolutely. We know we we talk about porn porn literacy a lot and the realities of porn versus the realities of reality and what the differences are there. You know, you don't most people when they order their pizza or have the plumber come to the house, it doesn't lead to a sexual encounter, right? But if you're watching pornography watching pornography and that's you know common theme or stuff like that, or even like you said, just what sexual acts are are deemed norm. I mean, in the neurotypical realm, there's a lot of research coming out about how often partners are choking one another. And it's not necessarily because they want to be, it's because they're seeing it in pornography, or one of them is and they don't right, like consent's not hot in pornography, so they're not asking, hey, can I do this to you? They just do it. So then they see that, oh hey, that that guy, that girl really liked that. I'm gonna do it the next time to my partner, and I'm not gonna ask because they didn't ask here and she didn't care, he didn't care. And so it just takes out a lot of just even the value of consent in in those interactions.

SPEAKER_03: 32:28

So, how do you educate in that situation then? Because their reality is no, this person enjoys that, or why why why should I believe you when I what I've seen is the opposite? Like, how do you educate them and have them believe that no, the real world isn't what you see when for them the real world is what they see?

SPEAKER_00: 32:47

Yeah, so do some some basic internet um exposure on the internet says this is real, but is it like picking things that you know the client knows and then finding something different on the internet to show them just the basics of everything on the internet is not real, and then um I will use pop culture and like TV media clips because I understand that I don't know things because I'm just a person, but if it's from TV, it's real and it does make sense. So I I lean into that if I can, okay, and use and use clips to show you know where someone is maybe saying yes, but their body language isn't matching. So does it really seem like they're saying yes? Or um I try to find as many clips as I can of people asking permission during sexual acts to be like, look, they did it, and then they still had fun afterwards. It's okay to ask, can I do this to you?

SPEAKER_03: 33:51

Interesting. So I watched uh I think I know it was Whitney Cummings who was talking about it. I think it was on Rogan. This was like a long time ago, but she had a really interesting statement that was very illuminating to me. Um, and she was talking about sex and the autism community again, relating it back to that, but uh how a lot of individuals with ASD struggle with body language. Um and how she was hypothesizing that that was gonna potentially be a problem because they might not they might so typically, you know, if we understand body language and we're going past that, we know we're doing something wrong. But a lot of times, people that don't understand body language, they it just might be an ignorance thing. It's not an intention thing, it's like an ignorance thing, or somebody's not responding to my text message, so I'm gonna text them over and over and over and over and over again, or I'm gonna continue to because a lot of like with relationships and um please uh chime in here with sexuality, a lot of it is more nuanced, like somebody's maybe moving away a little bit. They're not saying like leave me the F alone, they're just maybe turning away or they're not responding. But people might not be picking up on these more subtle cues, especially some of the individuals that we might work with, and that can then lead to much, much more serious things, but it comes from like an ignorance perspective. Um can can you shed any light on that? Is that something that you've experienced that you've worked with? Is picking up on those subtle cues?

SPEAKER_00: 35:19

Yeah, absolutely. And we'll um do a lot of programming with body language, and that's something in our in our definition that we use for consent a lot of the time at Empowered is including body language in there. So it's not just a verbal yes or no. Like when I um when I do it with clients, I'm like, well, what if I'm saying yes, but I my shoulders are shrugged up and my face looks painful and I'm turned away a little bit? Like, does it seem like I really want to do whatever you just asked me? And you know, so doing a lot of modeling. Um, and then that's where staff training comes in too is you know, I I don't see my clients a ton. We do a couple hours a week tops. We have a very low hour model and it it still produces a lot of success. And we do a lot of um staff training as well. So having the staff back up some of these skills that we're doing in the home so that they're they're showing, you know, their body language and that, you know, if they really didn't want the hug from the client, that they're not just saying, yeah, yeah, it's okay, it's fine, it's fine, but saying, No, I I did not like that. You didn't ask me, or you asked, but you didn't wait for the answer, right? It's not just about asking. You gotta wait for the answer that someone gives too, and backing up those skills because especially for some of our clients who are through the court system and they aren't, they don't have contact with biological or any family. Staff feels like family to them. So those lines can get blurred really easily. On, you know, I feel like in other settings, it's really easy to just have staff interactions be high-fives and fist bumps and maybe tickles if they're really young. But when they get older, they want hugs, they might want to cuddle, they want that sensory input potentially. And who are they gonna get it from? They go to staff because that's who is the safe people. So then having staff really back up those skills and sometimes walk back some of their behaviors because then it's too confusing.

SPEAKER_05: 37:26

That is that's quite an analysis right there. I mean, so many pieces to consider. That's I, you know, again, it's fascinating. Um, I was thinking as you were talking, so uh, you know, is it a is it a possibility that you see a lot of college-age men, for example, through the court system because of these same so we were talking more about a uh disability uh perspective, but I mean this sort of impulse control, if you will, it's a really strong drive. And it's with regard to reinforcement, again, is there anything stronger? So the idea that you're working with uh, you know, for lack of better phrasing, somebody of a certain capacity who may then be impacted in terms of their impulse control to not just take the response of yes as their green light, but now have to step back and read these body cues. How do you is there a particular way you parse that out or or sequence that, or do you find that that's probably individual to every person? Give us a little bit about a little bit more of the nitty-gritty on your approach to to help somebody behaviorally kind of inhibit at first, knowing that they're going through a step of responses to actually get to that green light, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00: 38:36

Yeah, I mean, one is is having some natural consequences happen. A lot of times, again, staff are are connected too, to these individuals. So they they don't always put they they scale things back, right? They don't want to hurt someone's feelings. They're like, it's just who they are, you know, Timmy always just hugs everybody, you know, something like that. But instead of being like, no, like that, they're they can't discern the difference between you and somebody else in the community that says hello to them or something along those lines. So having some of those natural consequences come in of no, I told you I do not want you to hug me, taking that step back or not sitting next to them on the couch, maybe anymore, or putting in a little bit more of those spatial boundaries that maybe have slid a little bit unknowingly. Um, we also um for some of our clients who can do this, we do a really cool social group with dungeon the game Dungeons and Dragons, which is a really cool way to throw in some natural consequences without any safety risks of the community. So you can set up, you know, if you know your client really struggles when it's a really cute girl or a really cute guy, then you make one of the other characters super hot and make them flirt. But flirting doesn't mean consent. And having, you know, a little bit more of those real life situations play out a little bit. And then if the impulse control isn't there, and then the client does something, you can, you know, you're in the game, you can role-play, you can be angry, you can um pretend that you push them away, and this or that, where you have that real life consequence without the the safety risk.

SPEAKER_05: 40:29

Wow. I like the um the whole idea of visual imagery here and how it um you know presents some some challenges to our our uh uh view of of behaviorism radical or other. Wise, right, so this idea that something not necessarily tangible but more visual can actually work to produce this high arousal. That's a really interesting uh premise that I'll I'll try to create more questions around. But you immediately made me think about that. Like, wow, wait, so you're saying that you're evoking some sort of mental imagery in somebody that behaviorally is having a reinforcing effect? That's fascinating. And it makes total sense, but it certainly challenges our usual premise of applied behavior, right? Anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 41:10

So what so would that like is there an age or kind of a recommendation that you have for parents that maybe have a teenager or something like that? With do you have like not a protocol, but any recommendations that you would have for okay, I've got a 10-year-old, 12-year-old, 13-year-old, I don't know what age you recommend, and it's probably kind of situation-specific, but like kind of general guidelines of uh age you recommend and then how to go about exposing um an individual to so that they can be aware and not maybe manifest behaviors that are gonna get them into bigger trouble.

SPEAKER_00: 41:46

I mean, I would start as at birth, you know. You you the simplest things you can do is using correct terminology for body parts. You know, you don't want to call it a hoo-ha and a wing-wang, you're gonna call it a vulva and a penis. Um, those are it sounds simple, but that's really as simple as it is starting out. Uh, just using correct terminology itself is a huge um creates a layer of safety, I guess I'll say that's been shown in research that if if kids who are taught the correct terminology for body parts are less likely to be sexually abused because abusers are not gonna call it a vagina or a vulva, they're gonna call it a cookie or a J or something kind of a pet name because they don't want to call it the right name. Um, so starting out just with that is major. Um, consent is another one. A lot of people tend to sexualize consent, uh especially adults, because that's how we think of consent is with sexual activities and interactions. But really, consent is hey, don't touch my things, don't take this toy from your friend, don't steal their food. You know, all of that stuff starts at a young age. And then consent's just built into their life. So then you can start to build on it as they get older. Hey, I didn't consent to seeing you walking around the house naked. Please go get dressed in your room. That's you know, that's a boundary that I that you know you might have. Or hey, um I get that you are a teenager and touching your penis feels good. Can you just shut the door when you do it, please? Can you clean up the tissues afterwards? You know, like all of those things again. No one's consenting to seeing that stuff or being around it. I don't want to clean it up. So you you just build it into life is really just the biggest thing anyone can do. I think too, answering questions can be really hard. Parents get uncomfortable, caregivers get uncomfortable with that, and sometimes it's because they were never taught. So then they're like, I don't know how to do this, so I'm just not gonna do it, which is a huge disservice then, because they're gonna find out somewhere. And like you said, a lot of times it's porn, it's with peers, it's media, the internet now is rampant. Um, so just being the educator instead of passive.

SPEAKER_05: 44:23

You the way you uh describe that is is so uh so vivid, and it you're you're sort of dancing a lot of times, I'm sure, and I'm gonna let you speak to this, but your your traipse in between this notion of helping somebody out with certain behaviors and then you having your own boundaries and respecting their your their privacy because you're you're having to inevitably probably intervene beyond those lines sometimes. Can you speak to that a little bit? So you you know, not to get graphic or anything, but the notion of cleanup, you kind of alluded to it. You know, yeah, you might let somebody go through their emotions, and then you're gonna have to invade their privacy, so to speak, before they're done with that method to teach them or maybe educate us. How does that how might that look?

SPEAKER_00: 45:08

Yeah, so that is all like permanent product-based. So before we're like fully into that step, we do a lot of of modeling, right? We're going to have video models, we're gonna have, we use, you know, dildos or dongs to you to as a teaching tool to be like, okay, this is how like the hand motions you can use, you know, if they're struggling with something like that, or this is how you put lubricant on, and then this is how you clean up. You skip, you kind of skip the middle part, right, of them doing it to themselves. You show them how they can do things, but again, you show quite a bit because not everyone likes the same things. So you're gonna show uh an array of things they can ways they can touch. Um, and also noting like it's not supposed to hurt. So if it hurts, you should stop. And then at the end, this is how we clean up. This is where this is the trash can that's right next to your bed. Um, here's the box of tissues, the box of lubricant. Um, if they're using a sex toy, we usually have a special box that it goes in. So again, it's not just hanging out for everybody in the house to see. So then the the last step is usually okay, when you've done all these other things, then you come out of your room. So we don't go in at any point in time. They come out and then we'll, you know, obviously ask, like, hey, did everything everything cleaned up? Everything's good in there? Cause I'm gonna go check. Okay, you said it's good, and then you go in, and then you take, you know, take your data on on what's left over or what was done or where more education is needed, and go from there.

SPEAKER_05: 46:51

That that's so um, you know, impressive a small marker, but the idea that uh you're creating more of a happenstance consequence where if you're out of your room, then I might go through there, and then socially, if I see certain things, I'm gonna have to tell you about my consent again. That's just a really cool breakdown the way you describe that. And and you know, again, what a um, I guess what a respectful way to go about it is is the best word I can think of. That boundary that you set so clearly there. And you you talked about normalizing these things, and it's funny because all of these things are normal, just as a general populace, we're not necessarily willing to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00: 47:28

Um, and you you think about it when we're talking about the neurotypical population, right? Nine times out of ten, they've learned to hide it. Whether that's from TV or a friend, or they got caught once and it made them feel uncomfortable, so they've learned to hide it, and then they don't do it again. So a lot of times parents will be like, Well, I never had to do this with their older sister, or I never had to do this with their older brother, or whatever age. And it's like, yeah, because they they learn differently. So with this one, we kind of had to teach them that.

SPEAKER_05: 48:04

Back to what you were saying, the also the idea that then your response as a you know, your child's nine or ten, and you discover them viewing these things, the notion that you might impose some sort of punishment, that's what's gonna lead them to hide it in the future. So, kind of back to your original recommendation, right? You're gonna want to be uh some some level of acceptance and and description and education as opposed to just some level of punishment. Because yeah, you're right. I mean, the whole lot of us, the whole, you know, outside of uh joking about how prevalent it is, I think the whole culture is about disguising the use of that or the consumption of those materials.

SPEAKER_00: 48:38

Yeah, and I mean when you're talking about solo sex or even just touching genitals, think of how many times you've seen a little kid do it, and everyone's first thing is, no, don't do that. Don't do that, right? Like it makes people uncomfortable. Instead of recognizing that that's an opportunity to be like, hey, just go do that in your room. Like you you I get it might feel good, but but you don't do that in front of other people. Instead of throwing in this internalized shame of do not do that, no one should be around for it, just being like, hey, that's something in your room. Especially because as kids, again, we're we are sexualizing it as adults, we're thinking of the sexual act of it. A lot of kids will do that because it's it feels good, it's self-soothing, you know, may you know, and so they're not sexualizing it, but everybody else in their life is, and then when it's pornography, you get into a little trickier stuff because viewing pornography under the age of 18 is illegal. So if parents know about it and are providing any content, they could potentially get into legal trouble. So you kind of have to navigate that a little bit more strictly and have some more frank conversations of like, hey, I know what you saw, I get it probably brought up some feelings, but like it's it's not allowed, it's against the law. And talk about why. You know, kids under 18, they they're you can't consent to things, you don't understand the long-term consequences.

unknown: 50:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 50:13

So we keep using this term consent, which is obviously super important in this whole discussion. Um, can you speak to kind of how you define it and maybe issues that you run into? Because a lot of the population we work, it's actually more assent than consent because they might be non-vocal. Um, but can you speak to maybe how you and your company define consent? Um, if there's any nuance in there that you found to be really useful, and then potential issues and or obstacles and ways of overcoming those obstacles that you've seen um with the clientels that you've worked with.

SPEAKER_00: 50:44

Yeah, so depending on you know, support needs and levels, sometimes our definition of consent is as basic as asking permission. Um then we kind of build off of it sometimes. You know, it's hey, it's asking permission and waiting for an answer and then saying okay. Um, other times it gets as in-depth as we say there's there's five things to consent. Um you have to say yes, uh, you have to show yes with your body language. The other person has to understand what you're asking them to do. So if they can't understand what you're asking, then they can't give consent. Um, they have to know the consequences of what could happen. So if it is something with sex, there could be pregnancy, there could be STIs, there could be getting caught, you know, it doesn't always have to be something just sex related, but like there's other consequences, and there's also good consequences too, right? So understanding those consequences and then everyone has to be okay with it. So that's that's our most descriptive definition for consent. And I'll use um if there's a ton of videos you can use to help describe consent. Um, if you look, if you just YouTube consent for kids, there's a really good one that talks about even like just I don't want to give a hug to grandma. Do I have to? No. Uh you know, basic is that. And then there's if you look up can uh consent tea, T-E-A, like the drink, there's a really good video that that talks about consent, but it's based in the idea of like giving your friend a cup of tea. Would you force your friend to have a cup of tea if they didn't want to? Just because they said yes, yes yesterday, do they still want tea today? Would you give it to them if they were sleeping? You know, that it gets a little bit more in-depth and uses find some clients think it's funny and pay attention a little more because it's like, of course, I would never do that with tea. That's so weird. But it's like, well, hey, it's the same idea.

unknown: 52:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_05: 52:51

So I've got a slightly silly question really quickly. I'm sorry to interrupt you. And I'm not even sure if it's relevant. But have you guys found I I I I'm guessing you must have found an artistry to your search terms. Um, I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_00: 53:04

Yeah, I don't my search history is the best.

SPEAKER_05: 53:09

You know that I borrowed her phone and I I was looking for an Italian restaurant.

SPEAKER_03: 53:15

You wouldn't believe what it's all about the incognito browser, man.

SPEAKER_00: 53:20

I I joke all the time about that. I'm like, man, if I die under like suspicious circumstances, please don't let them look through my third history. It's it's gonna be a mess.

SPEAKER_05: 53:30

So what you're saying is there's no secret, you just have to own it. Look, this is my algorithm, okay? Pretty much this is what I do for work. Okay, so I had to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 53:38

I have uh I have like my on YouTube, you can turn off like your like them tracking your history. I just turn that off because otherwise I I don't I don't need all the things that are gonna pop up. I know what things to search at this point for specific programs and things. Uh but yeah, you you uh sometimes you gotta search some stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 54:00

Sometimes you gotta search some stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 54:04

I'm so surprised. Or Rachel. Anyway, I had to know, thank you for being a good sport about that. I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 54:11

I mean, it is it is so true. And there'll be times where I'll ask colleagues being like, I have to search this. Have you done it yet? So I don't have to, or what term did you use to like cut down on maybe the amount of penises that show up in the it gives a new meaning to the sources.

SPEAKER_05: 54:28

You're you're gonna have to ask, you can't ask that question and not answer it. What search term did you use to limit the number of penises that came up? We'll put that in the footnotes. We'll give it away if people have to listen to those. Sorry, this is too good.

SPEAKER_03: 54:43

So when you were talking about consent, the third and fourth um thing that you mentioned, um, one of them being that some people might not be able to legally give consent. Um so even if they say yes, maybe they uh have a conservator, they're under the age of 18, whatever. So that also kind of adds some nuance, right? Of Yeah, we have to get permission. But the person that said yes might not be able to legally say yes. And even if they said yes, now you could be legally liable for something. So can you kind of speak to that at all? Because now there's some more, especially with the developmentally disabled um community, um but the person that they're talking to, they might not know that they're developmentally disabled, they might not know that they might need consent from a third party, or that person may not be able to give consent. So that seems like a whole lot of nuance that could lead to some really tricky and sticky situations.

SPEAKER_05: 55:37

Oh, a sticky situation indeed. As this concludes part one of our interview with Rachel Benson, she's lending a wealth of information, so please do return for part two and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_04: 55:51

ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.