Kinks, Communication, Compassion and ABA: A Pour with Rachel Benson, Part II

ABA is proud to present Rachel Benson (Part 2 of 2):

*PLEASE NOTE this content is marked 'explicit' only so listeners can be aware that it presents information on sex and sexuality. 

Rachel Benson is a Board Certified Behavior Analyst (BCBA) with a Master's degree in Education specializing in Applied Behavior Analysis. She also holds certifications as a Sexuality Educator (CSE) and Certified Behavioral Sexologist (CBS), and is a professional member of the American Association for Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT).

Rachel is passionate about applying the principles of ABA within the field of sexuality. She works as a Sexual Behavior Analyst at Empowered: A Center for Sexuality, where she provides direct therapy and consultative services to ABA teams, caregivers, and staff. Her expertise encompasses a wide range of topics, including human sexuality, kinks/fetishes, autism, sociosexual skills, assistance with flirting and dating, pleasure-related skill building, and compassionate, affirming practices. Rachel is dedicated to empowering individuals and upholding their individuality, including those with queer identities. She has worked extensively with neurodivergent populations for over 11 years in various settings.

Tune in as Rachel shares her unique insights and experience in applying ABA principles to foster sexual health, safety, and empowerment for all. Keep it fun, keep it consensual and ALWAYS analyze responsibly. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:10

Welcome to ABA OnTAC, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tap. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01: 0:52

All right, all right. Welcome back to another installment of ABA on tap. I am your ever-grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, and welcome back to part two with Rachel Benson as we discuss behavior and sexuality. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08

Yeah, so in if we are working towards dating or anything partnered sexually, I always make sure guardians on board because otherwise we're not gonna introduce it because that's that's a bummer to be like, hey, here's all these skills, and you don't ever get to use them. Um won't get a lot of buy-in from the client with that. So have to get guardian approval. Um, and sometimes they say no, and it then we work on we shift our focus to navigating those skills. We use ACT a lot, acceptance and commitment therapy. Um so we work with that a lot on, you know, navigating those things that aren't lining up with what we want for our life. They are, you know, I said earlier, where the values are between the client and the guardian sometimes do not match up. So being able to help them navigate when that's the case. Um I've also had times where the my client is has gotten permission to date, have sex, this, that, and the other, but the person they want to do it with, their guardian has said no.

SPEAKER_02: 2:16

That that's kind of what I was asking. More so, um, how do they let's say your client is maybe they're not conserved, maybe they have um, you know, independence over all of their decision making and outcomes. How how do you educate them on first determining whether the person that they're speaking to is conserved? Because that would be a real weird question to ask some random person on the street. Maybe it isn't. Um, and kind of avoiding situations where they're gonna get themselves caught up in a sticky situation. Because the person they're engaging with may not be able to give consent.

SPEAKER_04: 2:49

Yeah, the only time I've seen that happen is when it's someone from like their day program or vogue rehab, um, to where the again, the population that they're mostly around also is in the system or has a disability or something like that. Um I I will be honest, I haven't really tackled that with um my clients that are not in in that are not trying to date in that world as much. Because yeah, like it is kind of different to be like, hey, do you have a court guardian? Yeah. You'd be like, well, why are you asking? You know, but um typically if if so I have the one client I had where the other individual was not allowed to, um she had met him at their job at their Vogue rehab, they wanted to date each other, they were allowed to go on dates, and then she expressed that they both said they wanted to have sex. So her case manager contacted the other case manager, and then it kind of went downhill from there. Um, so that that was a hard one. Um, she had done a lot of work to get those rights back, and um that was that was a sad one to to have to help her navigate that and he wanted it too, and just the guardian wasn't wasn't on board. Um that's gotta be tricky.

SPEAKER_02: 4:14

It's almost like selling yourself to the guardian, right? Like I I'm hypothesizing, right? Like, why is this person a is it more selling the partner to the guardian, or is it more like selling that the the person that they have gardenership over has enough wherewithal to make that decision and to trust that person's judgment?

SPEAKER_04: 4:35

So it's a little bit of a little bit of both. Um a lot of times guardians, they you know, they take their job very seriously. They they they take it as they are they're trying to keep this person safe or keep the community safe, or a combination of both. So that sometimes manifests itself as well, they're not gonna be allowed to have sex or date because I just don't think they can. So we're just not we're just gonna say no.

SPEAKER_03: 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 5:05

And I try to be like, that's that's what I'm here for. I will gladly take this client on, and then I can work with them together to make sure I'm not just hearing one side of the story of this person says that they both want to get it on. And then I talk to this one, and he's like, No, I don't even know who she is, right? Like, Led's, it's great to be able to work with both clients and make sure that they're both able to consent and have that capacity, and um then you kind of hear stories and see if that generalizing is happening outside of session two, but that's unfortunately rarer than more common to be able to have both both individuals um coming in for services.

SPEAKER_01: 5:52

That that seems like uh I mean it's sort of a frustrating hit or miss. You're doing your best to uh, you know, acknowledge somebody's desires and their autonomy and and so on and so forth. And you must be finding common barriers. So I I imagine sort of religiosity or religious background is probably something that have you found anything that is helpful in trying to and again, I'm pretty sure it's a coin toss and and that m have probably carries a certain amount of frustration, but when you're able to get that victory for all where everybody feels comfortable, is there anything at all that that you found is your trick? The one thing that, say, for a very religious family might make them reconsider.

SPEAKER_04: 6:33

Uh we talk about values a lot. So going back to some of that act work and talking about values, because pretty much everybody is gonna have the same value of safety. I want the client to be safe, the client usually wants to be safe, the parents, the guardian, the caregivers want the client to be safe. So that's a really good starting point, and then we can build from there. I a lot of times also just time. I'm I'm coming in to, I mean, you guys have done assessments, you're coming in to do an assessment on someone you you be you barely know anybody involved, and then I'm coming in talking about something that no one wants to talk about, and it's uncomfortable. So time itself is really helpful, I have found, just in my area of the field, because especially when people see the assessment and they're like, Oh my gosh, you're talking about you want to teach them about STIs and and birth control. Like, we don't, they they're not even following consent. Well, that's we're not doing that all on day one, right? Like, that is so far down the line. It's just here. So you see the vision, you see the whole vision, the whole future, what we want to do, but we're starting with basics. So that that tends to make people relax a little bit too, because they see like I said, they see the assessment, they don't know me, they maybe talk to me for a few hours, cops, and uh, and it's all about uncomfortable things. So having having the trust built up tends tends to help a lot. Like I said, values is always really helpful too. Um, I will say the only times I've had people really fight, it's usually in the assessment phase. Um so if they're gonna if they're gonna disagree, it's usually gonna be early on in the in the process.

SPEAKER_02: 8:34

That's tricky too, because like a conservator isn't necessarily gonna have the same values as the person that they're having conservatorship over.

SPEAKER_01: 8:43

And there's there's levels of conservatorship too. Do they all cover that level of consent? I I don't know if I mean you you're probably privy to that. They all pretty much in terms of uh of engaging in sexual relations with somebody else.

SPEAKER_04: 8:57

I mean, there's some that that will be like, I have other clients said they can date and have sex, but I I don't I think it's probably because they haven't had any challenging behaviors. So then it seems like they can handle it a little better, air quotes on that. Um But again, I don't know how much education's happening there. Because I don't I don't see those ones.

SPEAKER_01: 9:22

When you hit uh hard stop and it's just to know what's I mean, what's the recourse there? You were talking about how hard it is to maybe explain that to a client, but when we're talking about something as basic as a as a FERB, as a as an equivalent replacement behavior, I mean, what are you recommending? Uh continued uh was it the the solo sex you're talking about? I mean, where does that go? That's really difficult because in terms of autonomy, that's that there that's just uh an immovable you know, barricade, right? You've got no consent uh to be able to do that. Yeah, where do people go? That that seems a really impossible situation.

SPEAKER_04: 10:00

I try to find out why it's being denied. Um if it's if there's something legitimate, like the Guardians, like, hey, I just don't think they have enough education or practice yet. Like, can it just be a no for now? You can't know you that let's let's work on some more, I'll I'll come up with more ideas. Um, I primarily do telehealth, but in cases like that, I might go out with them in the community, see what's going on. So again, just a little bit more education, sometimes all that's needed. Um, if it seems like it's just a hard stop and I can't get a reason why, and they won't entertain the idea, there have been times then you escalate it to uh like a review board or um you know, if there's someone higher than the court guardian, because then it does start to get in the realm of are you taking away basic human rights?

SPEAKER_02: 10:56

So there's a lot of liability in what you do, right? So if you're working with somebody who does commit a sex crime or something and then says, Well, Rachel told me I could do that, totally misunderstanding or misconstruing what you said, or um, you know, balance even just a clientele of your of your company gets arrested, um is there a like liability that you're constantly having to navigate? Um, or is it kind of like a general understanding that you very well know what you're doing and you're gonna give good information? And if something doesn't come productive of that, they either misconstrued the information or went outside of the information given?

SPEAKER_04: 11:31

I mean, there's always a for a realm of liability on us because they're bringing us in. You know, we're supposed to be an expert at this. They're, you know, and um we create crisis plans, especially if it is based off of behaviors that aren't illegal or could easily fall into an illegal status or harassment or something along those lines. We create crisis plans, make sure staff are trained on those. Um and then also just acknowledging like I can't guarantee anything. So there is a level of like unknown to a lot of things, but I I can't guarantee that you're not gonna go out and commit a sex crime, right? I can't there no matter who it is, there's those levels of of risk. Um, but that's when we try to, you know, show the data and the graphs and all the things saying, hey, here's all the things they're saying they know in session with me. Here's all the things that your staff is saying they've generalized to outside of session. We kind of just have to let them try.

SPEAKER_02: 12:40

And so when it comes to the data, it sounds like your company has a really good success rate. Can you do you want to speak to to that at all? Do you have any like figures or facts or or anything that that can speak to kind of because I imagine if the states come to you, y'all y'all do some wonderful work. They don't just throw money around.

SPEAKER_04: 12:58

Yeah. Um, I don't have any stats off the top of my head on like how many people have come in or gone out or or this. Um I mean, we we have a really good relationship with the DMH system and pretty much get we're one of the only places in Missouri that do the work that we do. Um, and we're the only one that does it full time. So we get a lot of a lot of their cases. Um I mean, we we overall do have a lot of success just with like I said, just the basics. It's it's funny how how much that's really what's needed is just the basic education on things, public and private, age discrimination, um, things like that are so common in the clients that we see. Like I said, they've just never been never been taught.

SPEAKER_02: 13:53

That's gotta be so like reinforcing to like destigmatize that, whether it's the mental health community or uh people who have either not been comfortable enough to initiate that or have done it the wrong way and gotten punishment for it. Like to be able to help people live more fulfilling lives, even in just that special little niche, that's gotta be so motivating when you I'm sure you get some anecdotal success stories of people coming back and being like, Yeah, this actually went really well. I had my first girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_04: 14:23

Yeah. Yeah, it's uh there's a client now that I discharged a couple months ago and just got an email this past week, and he's like, just wanted to let you know this, like, I've been doing really good. And it is great to hear those things. And um we sometimes have different, you know, myself or different colleagues work with individuals in the same home sometimes. It's just the way caseloads pan out. Okay. So sometimes hearing someone else being like, oh yeah, this person's really been doing really well, or them together has gotten so much better, and hearing stuff like that is really good. And um anytime we can get people some some knowledge and like I said, just some basic rights or get their rights uh back is always always a win.

SPEAKER_02: 15:12

So speaking of stats, I've I've heard a stat. First of all, when I give it, please correct me if I'm wrong because you're gonna know way more. And then I'm not really gonna ask you anything besides just give me your thoughts on anything you want to speak to it. So I've heard that up to I think it was 80% of individuals with special needs or developmental disabilities get physically or sexually assaulted, and I think a lot of that is sexual assault. Um, number one, is that an accurate stat? And number two, thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_04: 16:23

Yeah, it's it's really high. Um thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02: 16:29

Uh thoughts on that in terms in terms of maybe why, how how to prevent like anything specific that you want to share with your level of expertise on that stat? Because that's a really unfortunate step.

SPEAKER_01: 16:39

I guess the idea of privacy comes in, and we've sort of alluded to it, but I don't know that we've actually used that word. Consent's super important. Yeah, how does how does that play in there?

SPEAKER_03: 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:48

Yeah. I mean, you guys earlier uh uh you know talked about assent, yeah, yeah, you know, and that's kind of been a big buzzword in the ABA community in the past five-ish years or less. Same with consent, but kind of changing how we program, I think, is huge, especially when we're looking at early intervention and people want to target non-compliance, but then they don't discriminate when non-compliance should happen.

SPEAKER_03: 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 17:18

Right? If someone's touching you and you don't like it, are you supposed to just sit there and say okay? Because you've been taught that you can't say no.

SPEAKER_02: 17:26

The word no good is devalued so early. Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 17:29

Yeah, or people doing physical prompting, and an individual is uncomfortable and they have these uncomfortable feelings in their body about it, but they know they have to just do it because that's what their RBT does, or whoever, their teacher, or whoever sometimes even a parent, they're they're physically prompting somebody through, and it doesn't matter if they're saying, I don't like this, I'm uncomfortable. So then again, okay, when someone's touching me in an inappropriate way, I'm feeling uncomfortable. I've been told I can't say no, and I've been told I just have to deal with that. It's inadvertently, those skills are setting up prime situations for some kind of assault, whether it's physical, sexual, anything along those lines. So really kind of taking a look at how things are being taught and changing that, even if it can be difficult when we're working with clients and all they say is no, but recognizing that no should be powerful. Like you said, we shouldn't devalue it. The no no is a complete sentence, the no should be powerful. Um we should be able to find a different way to teach if that way is not working.

SPEAKER_01: 18:42

Um I I want to switch gears here, as uh I we suspected this would be an easy conversation, and it has been so. So, in the interest of time, I want to switch gears to uh another topic. But before we do, you were talking about limit setting, and I'm gonna ask you a very broad question. But if there's any guidelines that you would lend somebody if we're talking about masturbation and the idea of you're gonna allow a time and space, are there any given parameters you use to tell a family, hey, this is too much, this is enough? I know there's probably individual factors in there, but what would you say to that? And then what would you say to the same question now, but regarding porn consumption?

SPEAKER_04: 19:23

Yeah, so with solo sex, there's a couple of factors. Um, especially if we're looking at disability population, sometimes if you're seeing high rates of solo sex, uh, it might be ineffective. So you, you know, a question I have to ask a lot is do you see any inklings that it is successful? Are they telling you it's successful? Are you seeing stuff on a towel? You know, it's a little bit easier with someone with a penis to tell if it's successful than someone with a vulva. Um, so asking those questions, because often find that it's ineffective. So then when you have someone's like, oh my gosh, they literally are in their room 10 hours a day, and we've come in and knocked, and that's all they're doing. Well, it they they might be struggling. So then you would address how to fix that. What's ineffective, what needs to be done? Is it grip strength? Is it stamina? Whatever it may be. And then um, if it's you know, then you have to look at the medical side too. Are are they now causing chafing? Um, are they getting sores? Something along those lines. Um, wanna address that if it's been a Long amount of time. Sometimes it depends on the age, and you know, maybe we fix the ineffective solo sex. Well, then we might see a real big increase. Right, but because now it's it's doing what it's supposed to do, and it feels better than before. So we're just gonna do that all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 20:59

Um and you probably have to allow for that for a little bit. You have to kind of watch for it to settle into a different pattern. Um wow, that's fascinating. Um, so with regard to say porn consumption, you know, how would you speak to that in terms of limit setting?

SPEAKER_04: 21:14

Yeah, so that gets hard, and same with the solo sex in terms of what's what's just a a God-given right to be able to do. Um, but also you you have to live your life, right? Like I I have to go to work, I have to eat and shower and do my chores, I can't watch porn or have sex all day long. That's any and I and I that's how I explain it to clients all the time. Like regular people without because then they'll blame the guardian or the caregiver. No, regular people just can't do this either. Right? You you still have to live life, you still have to do things. So I try to have that conversation before we get into any hard boundaries of how long. Obviously, you can't, it still needs to be in your room or the bathroom door closed, all of those things. So we already have some of those boundaries built in of not at school, not at work, not at grandma's house, needs to be here. So then what sometimes we'll do is try to have a little bit of satiation of hey, you're going to work in two hours, you need to go take your time. Go take your time and then you can go to work. And then maybe when you come home, you take some time and then you eat dinner, or you know, work with the schedule a little bit, or if they're um, you know, watching pornography again. Are you still doing your what you need to do just to live your general life? Or do we need to have some conversations about that?

SPEAKER_01: 22:47

All right, okay. Um so Mr. Dan, I want to I want to jump into a discussion about um, I guess, sexuality as a behavior as it relates to gender.

SPEAKER_02: 22:58

That's what I was gonna ask you about. Next sexual identity, right?

SPEAKER_01: 23:01

So if uh I'm not even sure how to phrase the question. Maybe you can just start with a simple distinction and definition, uh, as well as all the uh middle ground when people say sex and gender. Give us uh I I know that's a huge question. Give us uh your your best sort of functional uh definition of those two things for the rest of our discussion, um, just because I think there's a lot to a lot of ground to cover there.

SPEAKER_04: 23:26

Yeah, so I think with sex, there's there's kind of two different routes. A lot of people say sex, and they mean a sexual act. And then there's also sex as in like your biological sex. Um, what are your chromosomes? What do your chromosomes say? Um, because we don't want to forget about our intersex folks. It's not always what kind of genitals you have, it's also what chromosomes you have. Um and then in terms of gender, that gets a little bit more tricky because there's some people who base gender off of your genitals, and other people base gender off of what is your identity, what do you feel your gender is? And you know, it then you you with that definition, you encompass a little bit more of the intersex community, the trans community, the non-binary community. Um so it kind of depends on on sadly people's own values on how they're gonna look at some of this. And um, then you throw in, you know, you can throw in gender norms and all that stuff. It gets it gets deep real quick.

SPEAKER_01: 24:29

Again, your factor analyses. Uh, I I I want to see your whiteboard in your office or whatever you use to look like a detective, right? So with all the yarn string connected between things. I I mean I can only imagine because it is it's so variable. Um, when you're talking about values and then uh interrelational uh or interpersonal relationships, knowing that these are we've been talking about uncomfortable topics, this can be a very uncomfortable topic for people who uh can't relate, don't otherwise want to understand uh something like transgenderism. Um how does that work out behaviorally for those individuals? You're you're asking, I mean, presumably you're asking them to think about their expression of their own identity in a way that's free, and then I guess to some degree you're also having to inform them as to how that might be received or worse, not received. That's a lot. That's a lot. Explain to us a little bit about how you might engage that particular circumstance.

SPEAKER_04: 25:29

Um, so obviously we start with affirming. Uh so like when we're doing telehealth, um, you can see I have my pronouns by my name. Um, I I show uh my clients how they can change their name and their pronouns on Zoom so that depend, you know, sometimes depending on the day, they might have different feelings, and they they don't always like to be asked every time we meet. It can be annoying. So I just show them how to change their own name and pronouns, and then I know where to go from there. Um, that's a really good, easy step that I do.

SPEAKER_03: 26:07

Nice.

SPEAKER_04: 26:07

Um, I we we have a really cool program called Queer Culture, and it's surrounding a lot of different euphemisms that are used, or code words, or um even like who are some activists and um you know people you can look up to in specific communities that they might identify in.

SPEAKER_02: 26:31

And um can you define what queer culture is, um, Rachel? That that word and maybe the culture around it?

SPEAKER_04: 26:38

Yeah, so the queer community has has a very vibrant and unique culture. So there's there's different phrases that might be used um in in the communities that that people might not know. So if someone's identifying as a gay man, they should know what a daddy is, what a twink is, um, things like that. Because if they go out in the community and they hear those things, if they don't know what it means, they could get made fun of, they could just, you know, feel uncomfortable, feel inferior, things like that. So again, my job is to give you the tools. Sometimes that includes different language that might be used.

SPEAKER_02: 27:22

So is queer the like the arj the larger umbrella? And then within that, you have the gay community, the lesbian community, transgender community, things like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Uh queer is so like the larger, so maybe you've got the prototypical heterosexual community, and then outside of that, the majority of that is queer community, and then it falls within different facets of that. Is that correct? Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.

SPEAKER_01: 27:48

Um, yeah, of course. No, I love the example you give with uh, and again, that's the expression of say, and and uh further even saying it might change from day to day, but I'm I'm telling you how to address me. Um, and even that can it's gonna be might be difficult for other people. So you have to prepare your clients for that. Is that as simple as uh you're withdrawing from them, or or what are the parameters around that? Because again, that's sort of part of an aversive stimulus that you're they're hoping they can shape into some other response, but that's that's largely out of a lot of our control a lot of time. That that's difficult. And uh, and again, I'm thank you for all the information you're lending us. These are questions that uh I think we've been interested in asking for a long time. Uh, so we we appreciate your constant expertise, but that that's gotta be difficult. Again, you you're hitting some cultural or social norm sometimes, uh almost face first, and and places where where you're not gonna get acceptance just to say that.

SPEAKER_04: 28:44

Yeah, so that that's definitely a big one. Um, we work on self-advocacy, you know, and saying, like, no, my I prefer to go by she, her, or my preferred name is Rachel, right? You, you know, some self-advocacy in politely and you know, correcting somebody. And then, okay, what if this individual continually does it or it seems they're doing it on purpose? Well, then you do have permission to step back from that relationship. You don't have to keep people in your life, um, especially again in in communities where someone maybe has grown up in the in the system and they've been in different foster houses or residential, and now they're in group homes. A lot of times they don't choose their relationships. Their relationships are kind of chosen for them. Their staff comes and goes for them, their guardians might change, their case managers might change, BCBAs might change, right? So they might not understand that they have a choice on who's in their life as well. So just giving that permission of you don't you don't have to have them in. It's okay. Um also some acceptance and knowledge of some if if it's applicable or gonna be understandable of social climate, political climate, unfortunately, of of that. And I've I've had a couple clients where we've we've created safety plans for them with certain laws that are changing and where they might live if they can't move out of a more conservative area but they identify in the queer community. We've created safety plans. What if someone does come to you on the street and starts doing something? What do you do? And it's sad, and it you know breaks my heart that that's a thing that has to happen, but it's it's gonna give them some extra tools.

SPEAKER_01: 30:37

We talk about masking a whole lot, and this is a whole different level of that. I mean, that's that that's just really uh an unfortunate that well, I don't know that we we talk about it negatively and with good reason, and this is a whole different aspect of that. Um what so there's you know, sort of a pop culture question, and you might have particular insight to this behaviorally or otherwise, but there seems to be a high correlation between um transgender individuals and neurodiverse individuals. Can you speak to that just you know, sort of in a general way? Because I know that's a a question that a lot of people ponder, and again, you might be in a in an interesting position to give insight to that.

SPEAKER_04: 31:17

Yeah, I think that uh some of that could be from potential lack of what's the word I don't want to say not caring, but neurodivergent individuals might not place as much of a value on social norms as neurotypicals do. So who cares if someone doesn't like that I'm wearing a dress or I cut my hair short or I paint my nails or whatever it may be? So then they there's a little bit more freedom of expression and freedom of acceptance in their individuality versus trying to not be that way or judge or um mask for you know better words in the neurotypical community because uh you know you have a little bit more put on those social norms.

SPEAKER_01: 32:12

Wow, that's that's a fantastic, very succinct answer. I mean, in order to buy into an image ideal, you have to care.

SPEAKER_03: 32:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 32:21

Otherwise, I don't care, and I'm not really buying into how this might otherwise attract or repel this or that potential mate. I mean, it gets so layered that that you cut right through that. That's an excellent, excellent, succinct answer. I appreciate that. Mr. Dan, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02: 32:34

No, you brought up masking. That was gonna be my my next thought. Is I I'm sure in especially in the just neurotypical queer community, you have uh at least a portion, if not a large portion, that at some point in their life maybe go through a level of masking where they are feeling pressure. Um yeah, in in the closet, I guess would be uh kind of a pop term or probably a bastardized term. Um so there's a level of masking there, and then you add on the neurodivergent piece, and there's that additional level of masking. Um, can you speak to is that something that you deal with um a lot? Is masking either from just being able to come out or people feeling like they're not able to express themselves?

SPEAKER_04: 33:16

Oh, absolutely. And I do um on the more like private, neurotypical-ish side that I do, um, I do a lot with individuals in the kink community. So there's a lot with having to mask certain you you have your like kink persona, and then sometimes you're professional-facing persona, and there's a lot of um misinformation and judgment on people in the kink community. So a lot of times people don't want other, you know, anyone else to know that might be where they hang out or their identities. So it's a different type of masking, but coming to terms with that when someone's like, Well, I want someone to be able to know the whole me or know who I am, and I don't want to have to hide these things, but for safety, they might have to. So working through that, and you know, we we talk a lot about um some acceptance that some of this we just can't, we just can't change. I can't change society in in accepting that looking at our relationships, who are we are we surrounding ourselves with people who are even if they don't identify the same way I do, are they supportive of who I am and taking a real good look at at those things, um stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02: 34:36

Interesting. So, do you have any like general recommendations for maybe listeners that either they themselves are feeling this um this pressure to mask or parents of children that might be masking unbeknownst to the parents um because of the pressure that they feel from them? Do you have any kind of general ways of bringing that out, whether it's just discussing, sitting down and having discussions with you or a child, or like any general rules of thumbs or suggestions um to help people get past this masking?

SPEAKER_04: 35:11

Having a safe place to be who they are. You know, think of again, thankfully, in the last couple of years, we've gotten a little bit away in the field of targeting like stimming behavior. If you want to stim, go ahead and stim. It serves a purpose. A lot of times it helps calm the nervous system, gets gets things out, gives the input. So having a safe place to be who this person wants to be, regardless of who it is.

SPEAKER_02: 35:37

That's tricky in society because there are a lot of, especially in potentially less liberal areas, a lot of like preconceived notions of what everyone's supposed to be and how everyone's supposed to act. And if you don't fall within that, there's a lot of judgments, potentially less opportunities and things like that. So that's it. I guess that is also potentially one good thing about the internet is there are places where people can have safe spaces and find people that have common beliefs and um ideas as themselves and express themselves, even if their current physical community doesn't allow for that.

SPEAKER_04: 36:10

Yeah, finding finding a community to to be involved in, support groups. Um, you know, I I never as much as moving somewhere new is always the great answer. It's not a realistic answer. So that's typically not one that's always a first option. Um, but yeah, joining, joining communities, chat spaces. Um a lot of schools will have, you know, if they're in in school settings, they'll have student groups. You know, just having that be an option instead of being like, no, no one can know. It's a secret, it's hidden. Just put it in the box, and you can only open the box right now. But you know, having it having it be just unwavering support.

SPEAKER_02: 36:59

Which is probably hard to get, but at least if you can have your social circle and support group, you'll get it in that aspect of your life, right?

SPEAKER_03: 37:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02: 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:09

Um, hopefully I can phrase this question effectively, but we've without saying the words, we've sort of alluded to some aspects of what people would say is um, you know, dysphoria or disorder. Uh, but if we start thinking about the general premises you're talking about, they're not uncommon in the general population. It's just somebody knowing how to inhibit better than somebody else in terms of social norms. If there was something that you wanted to educate the general public on this, because people can get so caught up on the notion of, say, gender dysphoria, and now you're using this clinical term, and now something is wrong with that person based on their behavior. Uh obviously we we have a different mindset here as we explore these things. If there was uh you know phrasing or or general education you would want to give to the general public on that level of confusion, what might that be? I know it's a big one, but I again I think you've you've told us so much, I'd be very uh interested in seeing sort of your insight on this very large question.

SPEAKER_04: 38:16

Just remember people are human. You know, I don't I don't think anybody would choose to to hate the body they're in. I don't think anybody would choose to to put themselves out into a world that is potentially not welcoming and unsafe.

SPEAKER_01: 38:37

You know, it's it's it's who they are, and so just remember that people are human and have human experiences and just to be in uh it sounds so simple and like silly, but just being a good person to other people, and it's moment to moment in what you're describing too, especially with these things, and again, it it could be very confusing to a general public who doesn't care to try to understand it. And I'm not making any claim that I think I fully understand. I think it's an active uh curiosity asking questions of people that are more informed. Um but I I I think I wanted to, you know, and sort of emphasize your point there that it's a moment-to-moment in terms of how somebody identifies themselves and you know why do we get so stuck on whether or not it aligns with our uh more general notion.

SPEAKER_02: 39:27

It goes to that uh difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule, right? Instead of treating people how you would like to be treated, treat them how you think they would like to be treated. I think so often that's we think people we treat them how we would want to be treated, but we that's now assuming like a uh lack of cultural humility, right? Because we're now assuming our culture, if we're talking about sex culture or whatever king culture, whatever culture you're talking about is the is the correct culture.

SPEAKER_01: 39:55

Yeah. So so much to cover there. Go ahead, Dan.

SPEAKER_02: 39:57

So uh I wanted to circle all the way back to something you said earlier, but before I do that, did you have any questions? Thank you. So you mentioned that you were kind of unfulfilled in the general ABA, day-to-day, BCBA life. Um, so you were thinking about getting out of the field, uh, but you found this uh niche within sexuality that it seemed to really inspire inspire you, and you've obviously gotten multiple credentials now. Can you talk about what this specific niche has fulfilled that the general practice of ABA didn't for you?

SPEAKER_04: 40:29

Oh, yeah. Um, so such a it's a hard and easy answer all at once. Um Where I was at prior, I feel like it was it was it was getting monotonous. There was a lot of the same early intervention, manding, texting stuff. And now there's more variety, which is great. Um, and I feel like I'm helping in a in an area that very often gets overlooked, and I'm able to help people get their voice and to advocate for themselves, whether that's as simple as don't touch me, leave me alone, or I want to date this person, or this is who I am, and this is this is how I identify. You know, I I've always wanted to feel like I'm making an impact and a difference in the world, not not to in like a self-centered way, but just wanting to leave the world better than when I came into it. And I feel like I'm able to do that now.

SPEAKER_02: 41:52

Seems like maybe like with ABA, the general practice, almost like a general doctor, right? You're not gonna have a general doctor do surgery. You're gonna have something more specialized. And what you made me think about when you were saying that is like maybe we're Jack of all trades, masters of none. Like there's so much we have to do. We have to teach play, we have to teach communication and feeding and eating and sleep. Well, feeding and eating, I guess are the same thing. And sleeping, and maybe sexuality and social skills, and like all of these things where it's like we're not really able to fully delve into one of them because there's you know 50 different targets of six different domains that we're trying to work on at once. And it sounds like maybe when you were able to focus on that one domain, it just really spoke to you, and you were able to really see improvements because that was like your your focus and your your niche at that time.

SPEAKER_04: 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:43

You um you reminisced about the uh the manding and the sort of earlier intervention and younger groups, and we don't necessarily think about that, those uh age groups of sexuality, although I'm sure you've uh encountered those cases. I know I do. Um, you know, boys uh thrusting or rubbing against the floor, um, the idea that you know, speaking to parents about the uh the notion that the the reproductive piece isn't quite there, but the rest of it's fully active. And um I don't know if you want to speak to that a little bit, if you had any experience during your uh big box operation days where that that might have inspired you into your current work. Uh, what's your notion on early childhood and the expression of sexuality?

SPEAKER_04: 43:29

Yeah, that definitely saw some stuff with, like you were saying, like rubbing against floors, furniture, um, things like that. And just reminding again that the sexuality piece really isn't there. It's more of a self, self-soothing factor. And while, you know, sometimes that's a little bit easier to replace, it also isn't at the same time because your body parts are attached. They bring them everywhere, right? There's usually something to rub up against, so it can be a little bit harder to replace, but then you you teach some of those other skills of public and private, and you can really set up for a lot of positive things by not shaming, not guilting at a really young age, just for acknowledging that those things feel good and it it's it's serving a purpose for them. And that can also lead to okay, if they're doing this all the time as a three-year-old, a four-year-old, something's dysregulated. It's this, you know, it'd be the same as using any other coping skill 24-7. Some things dysregulated. Maybe we need to look at the bigger picture of what's going on. And even people forget how like how much of these skills can be taught with toileting. How much is somebody hands-on with toileting with a young learner or someone older that might be toileting at an older age, but is someone in the bathroom, or if they're doing a shower routine or thing dressing routine, who's the one that's doing it? Is it staff? Because then again, you're blurring lines on who's allowed to be in the room when you're toileting and changing clothes and taking a shower.

SPEAKER_01: 45:11

Yeah. If it's a whole host of characters that are coming in and out of your shower and your changing room, yeah, where again, where's the notion of privacy privacy? Where's the notion of privacy? Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 45:24

Uh last question for you. Uh, based on kind of your experience, so you're a BCBA first and then kind of went into this field. Um that probably gives you some unique advantages and some unique perspectives. I imagine most people in this field don't come from a behavioral background. Um, maybe people that get the second certification that you mentioned that had more of the behavioral um focus due. Can you speak to maybe um the interplay between ABA and um what you do, or how your BCBA background may provide you with some additional insight, or you currently find it useful in what you do?

SPEAKER_04: 45:59

Super useful because right, we're we're behaviorists. We're looking at behaviors, even if I'm not observing the behaviors that people are coming in with, there's still so much to work with in regard to behavior. And I think that each field of mental health, counseling, therapies all have their time and place. Um, and for different individuals, they might need a more talk therapy approach that might be a little bit less in your face versus right, like ABA. We're we we like results. We're we're gonna push for those results.

SPEAKER_01: 46:37

Can you make it happen right now? Please do.

SPEAKER_04: 46:39

So we're gonna, uh you know, we're a little bit more nicely pushy, not pushy in a bad way, but nicely pushy with that. So there's some people where I've had them come and they've been like, I've you're like a last-ditch effort. I've done talk therapy or dialectic behavior therapy for years, and I don't see lasting results. Okay, well, maybe you need something that's more behavior-based if we're talking about certain behaviors. And um, you know, I I tell clients that if we get to 20 sessions, like my private clients, not as much my DMH ones, because there's other factors at play, but my private clients, if we get to 20 sessions, we need to re-evaluate where we are because we should be seeing progress. We should be seeing some point that we're we're looking at uh fading out of services. Because if you're coming in and you're doing the work that we're having you do, we're seeing change quickly.

SPEAKER_02: 47:36

That's awesome. Um, yeah, I think in ABA we definitely do love to see results. Um data for sure definitely, definitely drives us. Um is there anything? And first of all, thank you for answering all of our questions. This is an area like Mike and I said, we're super ignorant on, um, and we're really just interested to learn more. So thank you for answering all of our questions. Of course. Is there anything that you would like to say, you know, just opening up the floor to you, any message, anything that you wanted to make sure that you bring to the listeners so that they are they hear?

SPEAKER_04: 48:08

Um, I think, you know, what we talked about earlier, just being being a human, remembering other people are human and you know, coming from a place of I I want to understand and asking questions and getting that education and also acknowledging that education is needed and can start so early on and to sometimes as much as we're talking about sexuality and and things like that, taking that piece out of it when you're starting with younger learners, that this can be something you can set them up with foundational skills so that maybe they don't have to come see me when they're in their 20s.

SPEAKER_02: 48:47

Treat people like they're human. What an amazing, uh yet simplistic response and something that's so underutilized. Where um on the private side, where can people find you? You said you do telehealth, so I imagine people can find you all over the country if they want. Or can you just speak to uh if somebody wants more information?

SPEAKER_04: 49:06

If you want to be found where you might have so they can uh look up the business name Empowered a Center for Sexuality. Um I'm listed on there. Uh I also have a psychology today profile that I can be found on, and that can send email or a phone call. Um, so those are our the big ones. I'm on Kinkaware Professionals. That can uh be another resource to use.

unknown: 49:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 49:36

All right.

SPEAKER_02: 49:37

Cover a lot of ground.

SPEAKER_01: 49:39

Thank you so much for your time. Uh, we hope to see you again at some point on ABA on tap. Please do let us know if the show can ever do anything else for you. Again, can't thank you enough for your time on a Sunday afternoon. I'd like to do a little closing here for our tagline. So I'm gonna say educate yourself about sex, get comfortable, be human, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_02: 50:04

Cheers. Thank you so much. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_04: 50:06

Thank you. Always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00: 50:10

ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.