Behavioral Wellness: Creating Functional Change for Families and Schools With Dr. Tranika Jefferson (Part II)

ABA on Tap is proud to present Dr. Tranika Jefferson, BCBA-D (Part 2 of 2):

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Tranika Jefferson, PhD, BCBA-D, LBA, IBA, a distinguished doctoral-level Board Certified Behavior Analyst and the founder of The Behavioral Wellness Academy. With over 16 years of experience in the field, Dr. Jefferson has dedicated her career to understanding the "why" behind human behavior and using evidence-based Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) to improve lives.

Key Discussion Points:

• Holistic ABA Therapy: How Dr. Jefferson uses ABA to increase functional skills—such as communication and social play—while minimizing challenging behaviors like aggression and tantrums.
• Advocacy & Leadership: Her role as a speaker at the 2026 Black Women In Behavior Analysis Appreciation Day (BWIBAAD) conference and her work in fostering inclusive communities.
• Community Impact: Her commitment to accessibility, including the implementation of sliding-scale fee systems and partnerships with schools to support families who lack insurance coverage.
• Professional Journey: From her academic roots at Prairie View A&M University to her PhD from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology, Dr. Jefferson shares her passion for mentoring future clinicians.

Dr. Tranika Jefferson is a native of Bryan, Texas, and a recognized expert in treating autism, intellectual disabilities, and mental health disorders. She is a three-time grant awardee for behavioral disability care and currently serves as a consultant to schools and community-based organizations in the Houston metropolitan area.

Connect with Dr. Jefferson:

• Website: The Behavioral Wellness Academy
• LinkedIn: Dr. Tranika Jefferson, PhD, BCBA-D, LBA, IBA
• Instagram: @tranikaj26

*ALWAYS ANALYZE  RESPONSIBLY*

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to ABA on tap. I'm Mike Ribio with Dan Lowry. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly. All right, all right. And welcome back to ABA on tap. I am your ever-grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, and this is part two of our interview with Dr. Tronika Jefferson. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Not involved because there's a whole like early, I think it's called ECI, early intervention. Something as it relates to that. That if they're under two and a half, that they could get that without having an autism diagnosis, just early intervention, like skills training that they could get. And then most from what I've seen, doctors will give the autism diagnosis around two and a half year.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, that that seems to be pretty commonplace. The magical age of three for autism diagnosis, right? I like to think about that sometimes because it's very politically driven and it also makes sense. And then it's like, wait, well, what magically happens at age three that we can solidify that diagnosis? I don't think it has anything to do with diagnostics as much as payment.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

The same thing that magically happens between 39 and 40 hours of surgery.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Or I thought it was 19 and 20, or we'll get we'll get into that.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

So you mentioned that the the Medicaid can be a little bit cumbersome to get started, and that that's all process. But how about like the ongoing in terms of like the dictation of services? Do you find that you're kind of able to do the things that you want to do and you think you need to do, or is there a lot of oversight and a lot of like dictation of like, no, you can't do that, or it needs to be done this way? Or like I I've heard we're not vendored with Tri-Care, but I heard TriCare said that you can't do services outside anymore for some reason. Like, how how are you finding that in terms of the Texas Medicaid side of things?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Yeah, I'm I'm a rule follower, so how I navigate that is like I review the you know the the contract, the standards, so I know what's acceptable. And so I think that just comes with kind of educating yourself on each you know vendor contract that you have. So you'll know, like, okay, these are the rules, and this is how I fit what parents' preferences and what I want to do clinically into what their rules are, and I make it work.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Very good. One thing that I really like, and it's it's been a little bit of a we've navigated it well, but it's the inevitable, you know, challenge in ABA, especially with running your company, is most people want services outside of school hours. So, you know, three to seven or weekends, like you said. Most workers don't want to work three to seven or weekends. So it's like trying to find matching availability with having RBT base that is excited and wants to work and doesn't just get burnt out with the hours and the weekends and stuff like that. And I heard you mention that you do a lot of you know, weekends and evening hours, which we love. We love fitting in the ABA into parent schedules, not making parent schedules fit into our ABA. So can you talk a little bit about how you navigate that and also do most of your RBTs then have like a daytime job or or like what what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah, so what my RBTs look like is they have most of them have a full-time job or they're working towards hours. And so they're needing, you know, those field work hours of hands-on working with someone. And so there's no problem with them working outside of their full-time job because they, you know, may not get off work until four o'clock, anyways. And so for me, their session with a kid may start at five o'clock. And so it works out perfectly because I'm feeling a need that sometimes there's a gray area in the ABA field of people that are trying to accrue hours, but they can't just stop their job because they may not be working in ABA. They may be a teacher or just any other job, but they're trying to get hours for the BACB. And it's a struggle sometimes finding supervision and finding jobs that will be very flexible and you know, provide those hours outside of their full-time job.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Interesting. So, what what kind of balance are you seeing, or or what's the distribution between the younger professionals who are gearing toward the RBT versus maybe older established professionals? You mentioned teachers who are now going back to add the uh ABA part to their credentialing.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

You said what's the the balance?

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Yeah, what how many, how many, you know, how many of each are you seeing as far as your staff?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

So I actually have one staff that has been one of my RBTs for some years now. She had been working towards her BCBA. She passed her BCBA this past Friday. So congratulations to your new staff.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Doing new BCBA. Or your newly certified staff, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yes, but she's a psychologist. And so she had been, of course, she's an adjunct. Well, no, she's not an adjunct, she's professor at one of the colleges here in Houston, but she's been wanting to be a BCBA. And so with working with me, it worked out for her schedule because she didn't want to stop teaching. She loved teaching and she does that through throughout the day. And so it made perfect sense for her to be able to take on one client to, of course, bring her bring in extra income for her to get her hours. And now she, you know, could be a psychologist, she could teach at the university, and she could do the ABA world. So it was, you know, kind of double fold or triple fold beneficial for her with having this type of flexibility and schedule. In addition to, I've had an intern before and also one of my previous workers was a speech pathologist. And so she was doing speech, you know, her full-time job during the day. And then she was able to do ABA outside of that. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

So those families that you're working with, they're lucky now, they're getting a highly trained staff, both with you, but also with somebody with a lot of skill sets outside of the field as well that knows how to work with kids.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Right. Yeah. Most of all of my staff for the Behavioral Wellness Academy are, you know, professionals that have been in their profession for years or decades that, you know, didn't start out in ABA but learned about it later on in their careers. Like, oh, well, I've been a teacher or I've been an educational dietitian, but I'm really rent interested in doing ABA, but I can't leave my full-time job. Like, I still need to get paid, but I don't want to work in an ABA clinic setting right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

And was everybody that you know in that in that role well prepared? I mean, I hate to put it this way, but it might feel like a step back for some people. You know, you're adjunct professor somewhere and all of a sudden you're you're playing an RBT role. What was your experience with that? Did anybody have trouble with that or were they all pretty well prepared and and enthusiastic about taking that that step?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

I feel like their coursework when they were working towards their master's degree prepared them for that aspect. So they kind of knew what they were gonna get into already. And I don't feel like they thought of it as a step back. I feel like they thought it was basically the road to get them to where they wanted to be. It's like, okay, well, I will be an RBT because I know that that's gonna get me to my goal of being a BCBA.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I I find that that probably prepares folks a little bit better for the soup, the hands-on supervision aspect of the job. I feel like a lot of, you know, and this may not be the mainstay, but a lot of younger professionals, the the idea that if you're an RBT, your only career path is to then work up to your hours and you know, be a BCBA. And then once you're a B C B A, maybe a lot of people have this idea that now you're you're managing and you're supervising, and the hands-on part goes away, but that might be different in your experience. These are people who want to go back to that hands-on part in order to gain this experience.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah, that has been my experience. They they want that hands-on learning because what I see in our field is a lot of people, they they really want that supervision, they really want that mentorship, they want to know what to do, and they know a lot of that comes with just doing it hands-on themselves so that they can eventually be a really good clinical director or a really good, you know, supervisor to the people that you know they're overseeing.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

I feel that's super important. I mean, I think that's just makes such a difference. And I I say that just uh in having started operations, you know, 16 months ago for our brand new project here, Ascend, I took on the role of of doing the direct service and in the sense having been a BCBA for almost 20 years and having supervised casework, but now for our company saying, I'll be doing the direct services, and I mean it was, you know, it was it was working up some endurance at first. It was getting my chops back a little bit because I hadn't been actively practicing it. And, you know, after a good six, eight months, especially now, I I'm not I'm almost fearless, I would say. I'll walk into any situation and and do direct service. And I do feel that that's been of benefit to some of our younger professionals who are our RBTs uh who have had other clinical experiences, or you know, we commonly hear, yeah, I never see my supervisor, I see them once a month. And it's like, you're gonna see me at least once a week, and you know, we're gonna have to coordinate and collaborate so that I can jump in and show you something, and then you can demonstrate, and it's gonna be a very active collaborative effort. So, and again, to echo what Dan said, your clients then are getting super high-level service with quintessential professionals who have a slew of experience, a wider range, a wide range of experience, and are now able to directly interact and provide the treatment. That's remarkable.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Yeah, yeah. We enjoy it all.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

And where do you find so? I mean, that seems like a pretty idyllic situation with people finding you that can mentor them and give them the hours that they're looking outside of the so they don't need the 40 hours from you, the 40-hour work week from you. They need maybe a couple of hours on weekends or in the evenings, and then you get the benefit of not needing them, needing the daytime hours, but also having a pretty big skill set and uh moving forward. How do these people find you, or how do you find people like because I feel like that's something that we should probably look at as well. I knew where you were going. Don't worry, we're not taking we're not going to Texas.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Um, how do they find you?

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Yeah, so for one, I'm in like all of the social media ABA groups.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

And so those are dangerous. They can be.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Are they really?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I hear the pure ones are.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

The anti-ABA paragroups, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I I'm usually not, I don't like post in the groups, but I read like everything. And so typically at night, once my night starts to wind down, then I just go on my Facebook and go into any of the groups and just kind of stroll. Some are educational. Um, I learn a lot of information. Sometimes there's debates and you know, all the things that could go on. But sometimes people, of course, a lot of times they put in those groups that they're looking for a supervisor. And so sometimes I may reach out, like, hey, you know, this is what I have available, and you know, is this something that you would want? Or people inbox me from following my pages on social media, or they may have worked with me before and they may reach out, like work with me at a different like agency, and they'll reach out, like, hey, you know, I know you're doing your own thing. Do you have anything available for me? Nice because I do have like one employee now, she's followed me throughout the years, wherever you know, I'm at or whatever I'm doing. Like, she was like, Okay, I want to work with you.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Nice connections for sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, and just like people just know me in general from you know, social interactions, you know, ex-boyfriends or those kinds of things. And like, oh, you know, I remember meeting you via ex such and such, and I know you do ABA.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Saw you on the news. Talk about that in a minute.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

They seen me on the news or some ABA, you know, platform. So that's usually how I get my you know current staff.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Excellent. So I imagine you also have younger professionals or RBTs on the younger end who are embarking on their first master's program and looking for their hours. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Yes. So at my actual clinic at CODA, I have two RBTs that are working on their masters and that are accruing ours with just working there full time.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Okay. Uh maybe talk to us a little bit about the difference between maybe some of these more experienced professionals who are coming back and doing the the ABA coursework and working as an RBT versus the younger ones that are building up. What do you find are unique struggles for the younger RBTs? What has your experience been in terms of, you know, really bolstering those younger professionals and everything from their work ethic to, you know, their study habits to their timeliness at work? Talk to us a little bit about that because I know that can be, I'm sure that's a contrast if you're uh having an active adjunct professor somewhere who's now doing coursework and to get their hours and they go back to an RBT. That's going to be a different work ethic or level of experience altogether from you know a younger 20-something who is you know getting their bearings.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Yeah. And I mean, I could even just remove the whole ABA component outside of it in general, because I think this could function in any work environment.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

That's the conversation. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Um, from what I've seen is is just a level of professionalism that sometimes is the differentiation. And so I talk about this a lot at my clinic as it relates to sometimes when I even interview some people now, it's like when I was 20 or 21 or 25, like I would never go to an interview, like wearing certain things or saying certain things, and just sometimes a demeanor. I guess because I am the older or vintage top shelf professional.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Just from my even in college, like we had it was a class where they trained us, like, this is how you dress for an interview, like this is what you wear, this is how you, you know, the do's and don'ts. Like, don't do your hair like this. Make sure you do this, like this is what you bring with you, as opposed to I think now the younger generation, something like I don't know, a lot of them aren't learning that skill set as far as just like basic professionalism. And so I've had like interviewees that come in, and like some women I could see their bra strap, or they may have on tennis shoes. And it's like, who's training these people? Like, and like, you know, the basic things, or like even things not to say in an interview is like, don't talk to me like you're my my my homegirl. Like you're it's not too friendly right right now.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

What if I told you that one of our last interviewees showed up with no shirt on? Over Zoom, of course. Over showed up late with no shirt on and then like iPhone camera. Oh, it's like you know, it's it was an interesting world these days.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

It was a first. It was a first for us. Like, wait, is that he's not wearing a shirt? Okay. I mean, I guess it's uh comfortable in your home Zoom interview, but you could put a shirt on, but I think.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

But what would you say after so I I hear you because we do the hiring too, and it's or or just ghosting, like people will stop talking to you in the middle of the hiring process or something, and it's like, are you taking the jobs? Like, what's going on? But how about once they get onboarded? What differences do you see between the RBTs, maybe at the wellness project with the ones at Coda, both pursuing their masters? Do you see a lot of differences once onboarded as well?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Sometimes, sometimes it may be a difference in like punctuality and like, oh, you didn't go to the session and the parent was waiting on you, and you're just like, oh, well, I forgot I fell asleep. But you didn't think to let anyone know. Like, that's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

My older, you know, staff would never, but you like see no problem with like showing up late or leaving early, or just the the communication aspect is sometimes not well from what I've seen.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Do you find that one group tends to be more like flexible in terms of your suggestions, and other groups tend to be more like, nope, I'm gonna do it this way, or you know, willing to try things, willing to stick it out, or do you not necessarily see that from one group to the other?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

I haven't seen I haven't personally seen that from one group to another, but I know it happens. What I've seen more so is a relate somewhat to that, not as it relates to age, but people that have worked in a lot of different ABA agencies or organizations, and it's like, oh, well, this is how we did it there. Or they're really stuck on the DTT when a lot of some of us in the ABA community have moved towards the ascent base and the trauma-informed base.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

And that learning curve from doing DTT at five other ABA agencies, sometimes that's a huge transition to doing more ascent-based. It's like, well, this is how, you know, so you so you mean like I can't hand over hand with them? Like, but when I work for this company and that company, like this is how we did it. And I'm like, well, that's not how we're doing it here.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

That's uh we that this opens up a whole nice topic of conversation here. So I'll start with this question. You got to see a lot of people do things differently. You still know that other people running other agencies are doing things differently. Give us your top three, you know, pet peeves or things that you saw before you were running your own show that you said, when I do this my way, when I when I have my own way, I'm gonna change this, that, or the other. What were some of the things that really you know got to you or bothered you, or you just weren't comfortable with when you were working under somebody else that now you get to do your own way?

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Number one is forcing the 40 hours a week when it's not needed. I think that's the ethical part of me. Like, I hate when I get an ABA referral because to even go back, the how they're the ABA referrals are written. The doctor writes on all of the referrals, like up to 40 hours of ABA a week. So we get the parent, and the parents like, well, the doctor said that they can get 40 hours of ABA. So I want my kid to have 40 hours of ABA, and I let them know, like, okay, I'm gonna do the you know assessments and whatever I clinically feel like is a medical necessity number of hours, that's what I'm gonna recommend to the insurance company. Your kid may not need 40 hours, and I'm not gonna like do 40 hours or have my staff do 40 hours, and that takes them out of school. And so now they're not learning academically and they're an ABA for 40 hours out the week when they don't need to be an ABA for 40 hours a week. They may have, you know, level one autism, they may just need to work on social interaction skills that doesn't require 40 hours, and that doesn't require them being taken out of school to do ABA full time, yeah. And that's my number one rant. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

We're and we're gonna go on to number two, but where I mean, is it just from that original Lovos article? Where are these pediatricians or doctors getting this from? Is it because we imposed that? Where where do you think they're uh getting that or they're setting that standard and perpetuating it?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

I'm not for sure. I don't know where the doctors got the 40 hours. I don't know if that was like the initial like insurance cap on how much they would pay out for ABA, maybe, or from a clinical standpoint, it may have been said that the most beneficial I guess 40 hours would be what someone needed that may have been like, you know, very severe autism or behavioral needs, that like, oh, 40 hours would be the magic number for most success.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

So I'm not really sure on that. And but one of the things that along with that number one thing that I hate is some ABA companies, they will basically not admit some kids if the parent, you know, can't do the the 40 hours. And so because they're forced, they want they want to get paid.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

That's our personal favorite. That that's our personal least favorite, I would say, is the when we get the calls and people are, you know. So do we have to do 30 hours a week for you guys for you guys to accept us? Like, no. I don't think we have anybody at 30 hours currently or anywhere even here. Yeah, but you know, that's you know, that that's interesting because you so you mentioned this something very important, and uh I can get very critical about this. I don't want to go there, but I think it's an important discussion to say, yeah, of course, in terms of your logistic, your scheduling, it's very easy as a business owner to say, hey, 30 hours is what we recommend, 30 hours is what you get. We've got plenty of empirically valid research that'll say 30 hours is good and 30 hours gives you good outcomes in terms of ABA. And then there's the stuff that you're talking about that I think we embrace, which is hey, people have lives, kids have to go to school. How do we fit that science-based, that empirically valid treatment into their lives, or like Dan put it earlier, instead of them having to fit into this mold? You know, what's that there's a lot to discuss there? What what's your view on that? Again, it's very easy from a business perspective because now you've got everybody nicely calculated. You're getting 30 hours, you're getting 30 hours, I can uh run my run my numbers and everything looks good. And then that can really be strenuous. That can be overkill in many ways.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah, it can be overkill, and then even if you know you. Recommend and you get approved for that 30 or 40 hours, but then of course, life life and things happen, and maybe you're only able to do 10 hours because you know, whatever is going on with the parent schedule or just anything in general that could happen now, and now you're at re doing the reassessment and you're having to justify, okay, why didn't these 40 hours, why didn't you utilize the 40 hours that you were initially approved for, and now you're requesting, you know, 40 again, and the insurance company may deny that like it's you underutilize, you know, the initial authorization. Yeah, so we're not gonna approve, you know, that also. In addition to sometimes I may see it clinically necessary for a kid to have 20 hours, but I always have the conversation with the parent, like is 20 hours feasible with you know them being in school and your work schedule? Because again, I also my staff for the behavior wellness, they're doing sessions either in school or in home. So if they're doing them in home and the parent isn't home to do the sessions, it's like, okay, well, yes, they may need, you know, 20 hours, but what are you able to do? Okay, you could do two hours, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then like four hours on Saturday. Like, what actually works for you? So I have those conversations up front before I even submit for the authorization.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

That's interesting. I mean, even so the the time with which you deliver services might impact our recommendation if we're not careful, right? So the idea that we're we're fitting into the family's lifestyle, but we're also fitting into weekdays from a certain time to a certain time. So that's it's interesting you say that. I I like that you mentioned that. The idea that I might be recommending something high level based on what I see as necessity, but again, going back to the question of how much can you actually access reasonably and with you know within a comfortable level so that it's also effective, knowing that we don't want the treatment to become overly taxing, that that's not going to be fruitful in the end.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Right, right. Especially, you know, a lot of times our our kiddos, they're in, they're not just in ABA therapy. They may have speech, they may have physical therapy, they may have, you know, OT as well. And so it's like sometimes we're burning these kids out. It's like there's 40 hours of ABA, and then there's the what speech does typically with the two hour, two days a week, 30 minutes, and then they may have OTs, like, you know, that they may, it may be a medical necessity for them to have, you know, all these specialized therapies, but sometimes it is overkill.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Especially for pulling them out of their environments, like you said, school or something like that. I, you know, I find it challenging to think about. I think a lot of the companies are, you know, recommending, like Mike said, because of the business side of things, like more hours means means more money. But then even, you know, I think some people aren't necessarily doing it just for business. They're like, oh, well, it makes more services or better, like the parents are are thinking. But the problem is if it's just ABA services, then you're actually pulling them either away from school or away from being with their friends at home or things like that. And now they're getting 40 hours of this isolated services. So, in certain ways, especially because socialization is one of the big domains, like it could actually, I feel like, make that make it harder to then reintegrate which or generalize these skills into life because we're ungeneralizing them by pulling them out for so many hours out of the week.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Yeah, that's a that's a good point as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

What is uh I mean, and what what would be your viewpoint on that, knowing that there might be a reason to say maybe pull your child out of school to receive the services, and then that's different from say now a business model that says, well, hey, if this child who's under five who's gonna get you know early treatment at the school under the IEP, they could just get that at our center. And those are two different approaches there, right? One's business-based, one's necessity-based. What would you say would be something that would deem pulling a kid out of school for ABA services as a necessity?

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah, so I have this conversation a lot as it relates to if the kid isn't learning in school, I have this conversation more so is my beef with the IS, the independent school districts, that they don't allow us to go in and provide services, but the kid isn't learning anything, anyways. So it's like, oh, well, because that'll take away from academic time. But the kid is basically running around the classroom, fighting other students. They're not learning anything that's functional there, anyways, or academic. So if they're not learning, then I am in full support with them, of course, being an ABA and then in a structured environment that, you know, can help decrease those behaviors that they may have it be having in school that minimize them from, you know, learning effectively, anyways. So that's when I'm all for, of course, the pulling them out of school and having them do ABA until they get to a point where, you know, they they have learned skills, they the behaviors have decreased. So now we can integrate them back into school more. So I always feel like it should be some type of transition fading plan to integrate, you know, the ones that are either in ABA full time, to integrate them back into those social settings like the school and other places as well. So it shouldn't be 40 hours like every week forever. Like what's the plan to get them back? You know, their school age, they need to get back somehow academically, even if it's, you know, you know, half a day, twice a week, whatever that looks like for that particular kid.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Thank you for lending that clarification. I mean, essentially, we're imposing a restriction in those in those situations, the idea that, you know, you shouldn't be in school, you should be in this treatment. But at the end of the day, that could be a restriction to just normal daily life for a child, the idea that they have a right to be in school with other friends. But if that's not successful, then how can we pull them out and bolster them to put them back in? I think that's a a really important distinction you lend there. Thank you for taking the time to do so. What do you find is the resistance for independent school districts in Texas to bring in outside consultants or ABA professionals to help? Do you have any idea on what that what might be happening there?

SPEAKER_02 28:02

I'm not that well versed on the education side. From what I usually get from you know, just being a provider is it takes away from academic time. The kid already has an IEP or 504 plan and they're, I guess, underneath the idea, IDEA working on, you know, addressing these behavioral issues. But what I get from parents is they're not doing, you know, you know, anything in the classroom to address these issues. The parents are sometimes unaware of what they're doing, and the kid continues to have, you know, a high increase of these issues in school. And even the the teachers, like they're stressed out sometimes, but of course, it's not their call on if a kid's provider can come into the school and provide services.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

So it's sort of a general notion that as ABA professionals, we're going to go into that setting and sort of isolate the student to run something, a la discrete trial training. Is that kind of what I'm gathering from what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yes, pull them away from where they could be learning academically and as a provider, like do a session.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Also, probably worried about getting called out as a teacher. One, because maybe they're not following the IEP and then that doesn't look good. Or two, because a lot of the ABA providers, we know one-on-one. We don't know, you know, 20-on-one, like some schools are. So that can probably be challenging as well. Nobody wants to get caught out in their own classroom.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Excuse me. I think part of our success, so we do a fair amount of contract work with school districts, as it were, is probably a sector we're growing most in. And I think that's one thing to your point, Dr. J, in talking about that fear of isolation, that's something that we've I think we've done very well with our staff and saying you need to go in there, and yes, you're assigned to that student and you're keen and focused on supporting that student, but please become a part of the general environment. The idea that we don't our services should not be creating another small classroom within that classroom. Our effort is to make sure that we help that student integrate into the general setting. And there's other challenges that come up there in terms of the creativity and flexibility of those settings. There's already school rules and campus rules and bell schedules and a lot of parts of the environment that you can't change, which is its own unique challenge. But I do appreciate the fact that I think we've been successful with that idea of don't we're not going in there to isolate. Yes, we are assigned one-to-one, as it were, but if we're doing our job correctly, we're really integrating into the the greater environment.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

I gotta hear number two and number three. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Number two and number three.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

What were number two and number three kind of either frustrations with the field or things that you really kind of wanted to address with your new company? Or not new, but with behavioral wellness when you did your own thing.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Yeah, I think one of the other main things is just providing the flexibility that, of course, agencies sometimes can't or don't provide. And that allows me to help other people that are, you know, trying to be board certified, or maybe they're they don't plan on being board certified. They just want to take an RBT or a BT position to, you know, help them out financially, or they don't want to go the full academic route, but they love working with kids with autism. They love seeing like the behavior change. And so allowing that flexibility that a lot of organizations don't provide and giving people that that chance to either more financially get stable or to fulfill a passion that they want to do or get them to their long-term goal with being board certified. And so that was another like kind of gap in previous places where it's like, okay, well, I could help these, you know, I want to help or do these certain things, but you know, I can't because this ain't my company.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yep. Yep. I remember one of the very first companies that I worked at, I was the trainer and we had a huge turnover, and I brought that up to one of the higher-ups, and they were like, Yeah, we don't really care if the RBT leaves or we'll replace them. And we were like, Yeah, when we start our own company, we want to get rid of that idea. Like, these are people that have good intentions and have various different motivations, like you said. And if we can cultivate their motivation, whatever it is, they'll just provide that much better of a service to the clients, which at the end of the day was our goal.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

unknown 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Continuity. Continuity gets a little lost sometimes in that shuffle and the idea that the RBT is is expendable and replaceable. And we came in with the idea of no, no, that affects continuity of services. You know, you when I go to the the doctor, I like to see the same doctor if I can. And if the nurses are similar and they're familiar, that feels great. My dentist, I I want my dentist. The idea that every time I go receive a medical service, I'm facing somebody new, brand new, somebody that just came out of training. You know, that that falls apart pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Can you think of a third one?

SPEAKER_02 32:50

I can't think of a third one right now. Those are my my top two cumbersome things. And I was like, yes, I definitely.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

I'll give you walk you down a third one because it's something that I think we really relate to. And you've talked about maybe the transition from DTT-based, more structured or adult-led services to more child-led services. That's something we very much prescribe to. Our company is called Ascend Behavioral Evolutions. It's a play on ascent, which is you mentioned as well, being more kind of naturalistic and ascent-based. So can you speak on maybe your desire or your thoughts on doing a more ascent-based approach rather than DTT? Because we we very much prescribe to that as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Yeah. So I am actually newly, well, I would say within the past year, switched over to more the ascent model. And what I've seen it in action is the sometimes the our kiddos are become more receptive to us. And they don't see it as though, like, oh, I gotta go to the clinic and I don't want to be there. They see it as a place where, you know, oh, like we get to play, we're on the swing. In the summertime, we have a pool, we have a full huge trampoline. We're we're a house setting that we've created made into a clinic. So anything in, you know, it's a house. It's you know, eight bedrooms, your master, your your backyard, your front yard. It's a it's gated basketball hoop in the front yard. Like this is, you know, just another house that I'm going to to like play and have fun with my friends. It's not like, okay, where this is a commercial property and you know, I'm in this classroom, I'm sitting at a table and I'm matching, you know, different colors and things of that nature. It's like, oh, I'm I'm going another home to go to, like, I'm playing with my cousins, but you don't know that you're learning.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Was that by design happenstance that you guys landed in that setting? Can you tell us a little bit more about that? That's that's remarkable. I mean, you're you're offering a very homely setting. That's that's really cool. But how does that that's not very common? How did that happen?

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, so that was a goal was to find a place where, well, you you know, there's certain places that you could actually turn the home into a business. So it was strategic to be in a precinct area where you can have a home as a business and finding a home that was big enough to allow us to run a clinic there.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

That is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

That that was the plan, as opposed to like, oh, well, I found this, you know, this commercial space.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Well, then you get to build it out. I mean, you know, I'm not sure what the parameters are. You can get into that if you like, but yeah, different from a commercial space in terms of the readiness, how it presents, it just seems to present a lot more flexibility with what you might be able to do and just a lot more warmth, I would say, in terms of the setting. That that's a really cool idea.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Yeah, and it definitely helps with the generalization because you know, most of the time we're trying to generalize skills to the home setting. So it's like, okay, well, now we're just generalizing from one home to another home, not from clinic to home.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

And this is coda that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

We've so that was the ironically, the the founder president of Coda, she found me on LinkedIn. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

And so I was completely happy at the Harris Center because you know, I was doing my little one-hour, once-a-week sessions. I was content, not as like my first non-stressful job that I had ever had. And so when she messaged me regarding that, she was opening up a clinic, and basically I would have full range on anything clinical that I wanted to do. I was just like, oh, well, this is my dream. I never actually wanted to be in an ABA clinic. And my ultimate goal long term was if I ever do an ABA clinic, if I would want to do a house that I make into a clinic. And lo and behold, this person contacts me and was like, I found you on LinkedIn, and I would love to have you for my clinical director. But I end up changing my title. I was like, Well, no, I want to be the chief clinical officer.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Nice. Wow, that's from that's great. That's what a what a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

That is so cool. So, do you want to anything you want to speak on on the coda piece? I know that's relatively new, about a year in, but that sounds like it was serendipitous for you. Anything you've learned or want to talk about or want to speak to the, you know, our audience about things that you found or words of wisdom from being a coda over the last year.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yeah, coda. I mean, we're still a growing organization. I mentioned that we just opened in May. So basically, over all things clinical and the president, she typically does all things HR. So I don't have to do the HR and the payroll component. So it's it's a perfect, you know, balance between the both of us. And we have about eight clients that are there now. We have some clients that are waiting to get started. We're in the process of hiring more RBTs. I've been, I was on the news three times last year, of course, representing CODA and disseminating information out to the community from the CODA aspect. And yeah, we're we're ascent-based, and then we also take into account trauma-informed care with doing ABA. We are strategically again placed in an area in Houston that did not have any ABA clinics within close proximity. And so we're in an area that, you know, is primarily the black and brown community. Okay. And because, you know, they need services as well. And there was, you know, not anywhere that they could immediately get services that was close to them, they would have to, you know, drive outside of their neighborhood to get services. And so that's another awesome piece about being at Coda is we're catering to sometimes the underservic community that typically have a lack of services or may not be able to immediately access them.

SPEAKER_04 38:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

And of course, we are in a neighborhood because you know, we're a house. And so we're easily accessible to the people that are in the community to be able to, you know, come and bring their kids to, you know, get the services that they need.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

That is so cool. It's it's cool you mentioned trauma-informed care too, because you you hear about some people talking about ABA experiences being traumatic. And I joked about the parent Facebook groups, but if you even talk about ABA, they're like, no, that'll traumatize your kid. And it is interesting how there is that dichotomy about people that did have traumatic experiences and certainly providers that did not intend to traumatize their the people that were getting services. And I think what you're saying about the trauma-informed care is is so useful in making sure that we don't perpetuate that. With CODA, so you mentioned that it's in residential area. What is the ages and then how long do people come to the clinic?

SPEAKER_02 39:44

The ages is the youngest I have is two and a half, and the oldest right now is about to be 12.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

And so we're open from 8:30 to 4:30. Some kids may do a full day, some may do a half a day where they either come in the morning or they come in the afternoon. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Wow. Thank you. And no, no, you didn't. So and is this autism-specific diagnostic diagnosis, or are you seeing different things as well?

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yes. So, of course, all of them have an autism diagnosis. Some of them also have ADHD, which I see a lot.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, I was I was that's that's exactly where I was going given the demographic you're serving. I think there there tends to be a correlation there. And then I we talk a lot about diagnostic substitution here because I know that that's important for access sometimes. So kids might be experiencing other things, but if they don't get a certain label, they're not going to get access to good folks like yourself. So that ADHD autism uh comorbidity, talk to us a little bit about that. That's sort of a unique experience. I think it's it's very common, we see it a lot, but it might change the way you approach treatment. What's what's your viewpoint on that?

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Yeah, so what I've seen is again to go back to how we function at CODA and more ascent based is, and of course, not being very DTT driven, is in order for you to learn a skill, you don't have to like stay seated. Like if you want to work on gross motor skills and we're outside in the backyard in a trampoline, then that's where we're gonna learn that skill. You know, you may have different sensory issues that you know, staying seated is not gonna work for you, in addition to having that ADHD diagnosis. So, like, we're going to learn skills wherever we can learn them. We don't have to stay seated, we don't have to be in this, you know, classroom.

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

We're gonna go outside or we're gonna be in the living room, sitting on the couch, where you know, you would do the same thing if you were at your home, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yeah, that resonates with us very, very nicely. We we appreciate that very much. So, talk a little bit more about the you you alluded to the media presence, and that seemed to be, you know, to some extent a little bit of of marketing in in your effort, but uh has that gone beyond that? Are they accessing you for uh sort of content expertise if certain things happen around town? Are they reaching out to you to comment on those things? Tell us a little bit more about your media presence in Houston.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yeah, I would love if they reached out to me, but at this point, I'm reaching out to them.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Well, keep doing that. They'll come back, they'll come back around.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yeah. So what I've done is I have a full like 12-month pitch deck. Every month it could be a conversational topic as it relates to the autism community. And so I I built this pitch deck last year. And so what I do is each month I email or I go on the website, whatever communication form that that particular news station requires as far as submitting to be a guest on the show, that's what I utilize. And I give them like my pitch deck, you know, for that particular month. And you know, sometimes they bite, sometimes they, you know, ignore, or sometimes they wait to the last minute. It's like, oh, can you come on tomorrow? Like, yeah, I sent you that like three months ago, but yes, I could be there tomorrow. And so what I get a lot of times from not just the my other ABA colleagues, but people in different fields, it's like, do you have a plug at the news stations? Like, how are you always on the news? I was like, No, I don't have a plug. I just present information that I know is socially significant to a large population, and that's how I get to be on there.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

That's great. That's great. So you sort of reached out to one particular outfit and then uh, or did you have to reach out to many to grab a couple? How did that work?

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah, I reach out to all of them. All of them get the same email.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

And I just like, okay, well, copy paste to Fox 26, copy paste to, you know, KPRC, copy, paste all the other, you know, news stations.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

So you've got several that you're working with now, or have it only been a couple that have bitten?

SPEAKER_02 43:37

I've been on three different news stations.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Uh three or four.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

That's such a cool new frontier.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah, no, and I like that. Again, I I often make the joke, you know, if you watch the news and there's something that happens, say autism related, and then they bring on a content expert, and it's you know, somebody more traditionally in in psychoanalytic treatment or something that isn't. Somebody that isn't one of us. And it's like, come on, we gotta represent better. So I'm really, really glad that you're out there doing that and putting BCBAs at the forefront where they should be, you know, under certain content expertise. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Yeah, that's the goal, is to always well, my intent is it relates to community impact is to try to place BCBAs in positions where we typically have not been or in conversations or anywhere. Like it should always be like it have input from you know one of us. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Well we think so.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

We haven't, you know, highlighted, you know, being on the news, typically, like you were saying, it typically is maybe a clinical psychologist that you know when something happens, they have the expertise coming from the traditional, you know, mental health professional psychologist or a social worker. It's like, okay, well, why aren't we part of that conversation as well?

SPEAKER_00 44:52

No, we appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

We in that space as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Thank you so much for for doing that. I I appreciate that very much. And I'm sure the the rest of us will at some point because we we need to put ourselves out there. We do have a lot of content expertise, I think, over you know, my career over the past you know 20, 25 years, we've become a little more prominent. We've learned how to play on the sandbox a little bit better with other professionals, and I I I agree, I agree. So thank you for putting us out there and and putting a a good expert face to the BCBA world. So I know you we talked about your public speaking and speaking engagements. Tell us a little bit about that. It seems like you're pretty active in sort of uh mentoring and and leadership, trying to bring up younger professionals up to a higher level, and you're pretty active in in public speaking. So tell us a little bit about your work there.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Yeah, so I've been at several conferences, uh, panelists. So there's the Black Women in ABA Appreciation Day that I did last year as a panelist. And then they also have a conference that's next month that's virtual, and I'll be a panelist in that one as well. Also a panelist for the Black Men in ABA. I was at their summit last year in Atlanta, and that was also a great opportunity. I really like doing panels because it's kind of more informal and you kind of can be able to feed off of each other, and it's less work preparing for like a full presentation.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

So panels are really like my niche. Uh, but I've also been done a presentation in Kenya as it relates to special education and and autism. And so that was my first time um actually presenting as opposed to just panels. And so yeah, that's kind of my the route that I'm going now is disseminating more information, not just about you know autism, but ABA in general, with the goal of kind of trying to detach ABA from just autism. And like I was saying, like putting ourselves as BCBAs or as ABA providers in different settings where people used to didn't know like who we are, what we did. It was like, okay, well, we know who you are, and we're not just we don't see you just as an autism provider. Like we know that BCBAs could do like plenty of other things as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

And so would you expand a little bit on the international uh the the the the Kenya piece? How did that come about and and what was your experience like? I I I trust maybe you were prepared for something specific, and then maybe you got there and it was a it looked a little different, or your content maybe had to be adapted a little bit. Tell us a little bit about that. That's remarkable. I mean, I again I I can only imagine preparing here stateside and then getting to a certain international setting and being like, oh, wait a minute, maybe I I didn't know exactly what I was preparing for.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Oh no, it was a I prepared to do a presentation. So there's a conference called DICES.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

And it's basically a conference that is organized by the special education community. It was my first time going, and last year it happened to be in Kenya. And so my presentation was related to the language barriers and the marginalization, marginalization, and the lack of providers and the lack of sometimes people that speak different languages as it relates to getting services. And so, of course, I prepared to uh I had a co-presenter as well, it was just two of us. And so she presented for 30 minutes and then I presented for 30 minutes. But it was an awesome experience to, of course, present in a different country and then also be able to present around people that weren't like it was not an ABA conference, it was like, you know, teachers and professors around the country that was there. And so again, moving from like taking myself out of just straight ABA places and just strictly autism places and disseminating like myself and these different projects and things, like, oh, and we have this, we have one BCBA. And what is a BCBA? Like, what do you do again? And like getting other people the opportunity to like, hey, like, you know, this is a field, and you know, you know, we're we don't just do autism and kind of inserting myself in these different spaces where I know that you know our our practice and what we do is very relevant.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

So then this was to to uh specific to special education or specialized services in Kenya. Am I understanding that correctly?

SPEAKER_02 49:04

No, it was just held in Kenya. So every year it's somewhere different. I understand. Yeah, it was just there.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Okay, very well.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

But everyone came from like around like different countries. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Again, a lot of fun. I you know, I I haven't had the opportunity to do that, but when I speak to people that have a chance to do that, it just feels like a especially when you meet people from other countries or you know, if you look at the BACB and you look at their the map of our distribution, the idea that you might see that there's you know one certified behavior analyst in India, and it's like that's a country of billions of people. How does that work? You know, there's one of us looming around there, you know, good for them, plenty of opportunity. But yeah, it's always very interesting to to to see those differences from from place to place. So what a what a cool experience. Well, believe it or not.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

I got I have one last question for you, a quick one, small world one, maybe. You said you got your degree from North Texas, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:59

University of North Texas in.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Do you was there the Kristen Farmer Autism Center there when you went there by chance?

SPEAKER_02 50:07

So the program that I did was online.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

So I never actually made it to the campus.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

I I just bring that up because that was my first company was owned by her. So I I knew her well, and I know she has a big footprint in North Texas, so just a university of North Texas.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

So just a small little world, but you didn't you didn't come across a uh Dr. CJ Connor in your coursework, did you? By any chance?

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Not that I remember.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Okay. Yeah, just uh we we have a a little a bit of a connection. So when you mentioned that, we were like, oh, I wonder it it is a small world, but yeah, I'm I'm pretty sure that the folks we were mentioning had a hand in developing that that online program through UNT. So yeah. Well, Dr. J, we've covered a lot of ground. Could you please take a couple more minutes to tell our audience where they can find you, assuming you want to be found, or to give one last pitch and promote your projects, however you want to disseminate that information.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yeah, so I can be found on LinkedIn and Tranika Jefferson. So thank you for um you type that into your LinkedIn, you will see me. I can be found on Instagram, Trinika J26, also coda.autism on Instagram, also behavioral.wellness on Instagram, okay, and Tronika Jefferson on on Facebook as well, Coda Autism Services on Facebook. And yeah, those are all my my social media handles.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Okay. Well, thank you so, so much for your time today. Anything that our platform can ever help you out with, please feel free. Uh don't be shy. Reach out to us, and and we're glad to collaborate with you. We really enjoyed our time. I didn't prepare again, Dan, for my three closing points. Can you help me out here?

SPEAKER_01 51:54

So let's see. So, well, I I kind of like her. I kind of like her three frustrations with with ABA. I kind of like that. So maybe your child doesn't need 40 hours.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Maybe they need to be in school.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Maybe they need to be in school. Maybe you should think about your RBTs a little bit more and look at a cent. And always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Thank you so much, Dr. J. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Thank y'all. Bye. Always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.