Analyzing The Behavior of Everything with Dr. Scott O'Donnell (Part III)

ABA on Tap is proud to present Dr. Scott O'Donnell (Part 3 of 3):

Dr. Scott O’Donnell, PhD, BCBA-D, LBA, is a dedicated behavior analyst, educator, and therapist recognized for his advocacy in expanding the reach of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) beyond traditional settings. He is the founder of SAOBA, LLC, and currently serves as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at Temple University.

Dr. O’Donnell’s career spans over a decade, with a focus on diverse populations including inner-city youth, athletes, and individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities (IDD), and Emotional and Behavioral Disorders (EBD).

Dr. O’Donnell is a strong proponent of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and Relational Frame Theory (RFT). He frequently utilizes behavior analytic techniques to address mental health challenges such as depression and anxiety and emphasizes the importance of data-driven, compassionate practice. His published research includes work on:

• Sports performance and concussion management.
• Integrating consumer behavior analytic models into corporate settings (e.g., Disney).

A lifelong resident of Philadelphia, Dr. O’Donnell is an active volunteer, currently serving as Vice President of the Fox Chase Civic Association. He is also involved in shaping the future of the field through SEBA (Scientific Evaluation of Behavior Analysis), advocating for diverse representation within the behavior science community.

Dr. Scott returns to ABA on Tap, and discusses everything from prior guests on the Tap, to the idea of freedom and human agency. This brew is flavorful and promises a delightful intellectual buzz. Pour heavy, pour more and ALWAYS ANALYZE RESPONSIB

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:26

So without further ado, sit back relaxing, always analyze responsibly. Hey, this is your ever grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, and this is part three with Dr. Scott O'Donnell. What a guy. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

That could be freedom too. And because sometimes, you know, to get to freedom, there has to be some pain and suffering. That's what it takes to be free.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

That is for me. Yeah, no, that's you made me think of models of addiction. So say for heroin addicts who are free to do what they do to a certain extent. And then there's a certain freedom to feel that comes back that is very uncomfortable in terms of now itching behavior, right? So that your pain receptors are coming back to life. And now that same freedom that you felt to sort of numb yourself, you have a newfound freedom, which is actually to now have to be able to feel pain and suffering, but that doesn't feel that way in that moment. It's just it really I don't know, twist my head around a little bit, but you made me think of that in that moment where, yeah, pain and suffering, the idea of enduring a workout, there's a certain level of of of stress that you're willingly applying to yourself in that moment. That if you're don't have a sense of enjoyment for it, then it changes your whole perspective of how free you feel in that moment, or the idea that you're you're running or working out for the the you stress sense of it, as opposed to being felt you know feeling constraints of uh fitness or health, which in and of themselves provide a certain freedom if you can achieve them. So it it I just feel like it it it it's a matter of perspective, not to boil it down too far, but it is, it's it's so interchangeable in a sense, and based on any given context at any given time, and then yeah, maybe going back to the the best thing I can think of is going back to that initial sense of excitation or arousal that you might be feeling physiologically, and how that provides an underlying foundation to how you're gonna perceive those things. So he was talking about pain and suffering and how that might uh there's a certain aspect of freedom to that, the idea that you have a uh you know a right, if you will, to feel pain, right? So I I talked about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Anyway, that's why I went to the bathroom right now. I exercise very well to uh choose to go in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Very reinforcing, very reinforcing. I very, very I I talk about that with with uh toilet training with parents too, in terms of trying to gauge musculature and bladder size by how wet child's diaper might be in the morning, and the idea that you might catch them and then they're dry, that's the best time to go sit them down. If you do those pieces, the idea that you know, like and I I tell parents too, you know, you you're in the car and you're stuck in traffic and you gotta pee, and then you get home, and that feeling of when you finally get home is just like ah, we it's okay to have your child realize that and pair it along with that, you know, white porcelain throne and that feeling of and it's no wonder that what's what what do most of us do? First thing when you wake up, you you've been holding it all night, and right and of course, if you're uh over 50 like me, you've probably done it several times during the night, but we won't get into that.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Oh man, my migraine meds every morning. I woke up at five every morning. But yeah, so it made me think about it when I was uh exercising my free will that people could look at that as free will, but it's also it also comes down to the consequences, right? Because like like I really wanted to be part of this conversation, and that was very reinforcing to me. At what at some point it was like the the consequence of or the amount of reinforcement I was getting from this conversation was no longer greater than the amount of reinforcement that I perceived going to the bathroom would give me, so I exercised my free will. You can't necessarily get inside my head and figure out when at what exact point uh that consequences are gonna be those consequences are gonna change. And and I know we can affect them with you know separate satiation or deprivation or establishing operations and abolishing operations, so we can make a consequence more likely, but we can never like fully know what consequence well, not we can never, but most of the times we cannot know what consequence someone's gonna choose. Which leads me to kind of that whether we want to call that free will or variability in behavior. Yeah, I don't know. That's a lot of calls.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

It's isra yeah, I I would be remiss if I did not name Israel Gold Diamond in this because Gold Diamond had a lot to say about free will. He saw it as like as choice, as uh freedom is having like basically freedom is having alternative reinforcement during extinction conditions, right? So like that you have somewhere else to turn to. And uh Catania thought about this too. And Catania actually did some studies. I don't know if you like knew that Catania did some studies on on freedom, and he looked at choice and he found that pigeons prefer choice, and he demonstrated this experimentally, and it might be adaptive if you think about it. Uh if one avenue of reinforcement were to cease, it would be adapted to have an alternative, you know, source of reinforcement, not ideal, but you know, adaptive just to have, you know, another source of reinforcement. And then he found that when he was doing his experiment, which was like a concurrent chains arrangement arrangement, that you know, he was able to like protect and account for pigeons choices, and it was like the one the one chain allowed them to have a choice between like uh two, but it was just equaled out, so the reinforcement uh was enough. But even when they got to the point where they got like a forced choice, like where it was more rewarding for the forced choice, right? The the birds would do that for a little bit, but they would still revert back to having that preference. Once the contingencies of reinforcement are the same, they they go back to having a preference for having a choice.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

And freedom seems like like you're saying, right? So it means that you have two options of consequences of reinforcing or one's if one's reinforcing and one's aversive, then I think somebody might argue that's not freedom anymore. Uh I don't know, but it seems like that's exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, Katania argued that he's he argued like an organism without the opportunity to choose among other alternatives, are they not called free, right? So he kind of like took a you know, Skinner looked at the contingency of reinforcement, you know, you know, Catania looked at like, oh, like would this organism be called free? Israel go down and look at choices. Sidman wrote about it too, and he talked about coercion, and then he saw like you know, that that is like not freedom because it's control of behavior through you know aversive means. So there's a lot of lot of different people have have spoken on it, and you know, it's funny, like where are we at now? Where are we at as behavior analysts in in this year in this 250th anniversary of a country, you know, when there's gonna be all these events uh going on and and everybody's gonna be talking about freedom. And it's gonna be the summer soon, and this episode is gonna come out probably closer to the summer, I imagine, and things are gonna be ramping up. Or maybe maybe in the spring. Yeah, yeah, it'll come out soon. Yeah. But for me, freedom is behavioral, you know, and like in in the long run, it's what we do, it's what we don't do, and it's what we do too much of. And what it looks like when I'm making freedom, the most important thing for me is I'm being a leader in my community and I'm guiding my community with behavior analysis to give them more control. I'm giving people more options where you know, if if they haven't had more options, I'm trying to find one for them, and I'm freeing people from an environment from environmental control that's made their lives miserable and made them miserable, and and showing them that controlled by the environment that leads to happiness is possible, and and it's a route they can take.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

And that's so interesting, too, because we we are talking about environments, and then you're dealing with the individual within that environment and ultimately sort of telling them it behooves them to make some change within or in their actions in order to impact their environment in a way that then returns a little bit more of that freedom. So it is you know, I think you're capturing it nicely. It it's there's there's a reciprocity to it with your environment, there's a sense of of how your change in behavior then allows for your beh your environment to perceive you differently in a in a sense in terms of other organisms. I you know, there's a lot to be to be explored there. You you you were talking about the 250th anniversary, we're gonna be talking about freedom, and then with that, we alluded to this a little bit. I I I want to throw this out there without getting too too in depth, but there's a lot of stuff going on right now, a lot of events going on right now that really put our freedom in question. So freedom to peacefully assemble, for example, and then there's rights that come with that. So I don't know if you guys gentlemen have any have any thoughts on that. I think that our work maybe in the near future is gonna be very important sociopolitically. So the idea that what is your behavior if you encounter certain law enforcement authorities these days, I think there's a lot to be explored there in terms of then our right to peacefully assemble, knowing that that's all being interpreted through a different lens right now. And it's not to say that I take one side or the other. I think that, you know, I can look at the notion of peaceful assembly right now and go, ah, they shouldn't have done that. That's really easily gonna attract a certain reaction from uh this other side here. And then there's certainly plenty of examples where I look at authority and I go, oh wow, our freedom's at stake here. This is really being limited. So I'll throw that out there for anybody who wants to comment.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah, there's a lot going on right now. I I actually in multiple situations. I remember probably about 15, no, maybe a little less than that, maybe about a dozen years ago. I was working with uh adults with autism, and and they came out with this this like ruling that that we couldn't have we couldn't be all at the same place at the same time. We couldn't like all take over a movie theater or something like that. And I'm thinking to myself, like, what about their rights to to assemble, peacefully assemble? You know, you know, and I and then the one last person I want to mention on who's written on freedom was was Goltz. I think it was Sandra Goltz. And she she wrote a few years ago, 2020, she wrote about that freedom is not having diverted resources. I think her example was if you were using a river for water and someone upstream diverted that river, uh, then you would not be free. You would be like, you know, under under the reversing control. And and there's also that going around too, where we have institutional racism and and and things like that. And and and even with even what I'm doing with like SIBA, you know, with expanding these avenues for behavior analysts to to work outside of autism, I feel like that is a step towards freedom. It's a step towards giving behavior analysts more options where they might feel like my only option for work is to work with kids with autism. When it's like a science of behavior that could help everyone. And if we're able to, you know, increase their choices and you know give them you know some autonomy where they can at least have some choices, whether their choices are determined by the environment or not, at least at least have you know some more options so they don't feel stuck and make sure that like resources aren't being diverted from us from other you know avenues or other practitioners and stuff like that, then then we are taking a step towards making behavior analysts more free.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

I I do like that, and uh certainly appreciate that you've done this before for us on the show, looked at other avenues, and uh I think that was our theme for last season, is is trying to find those guests. And and interestingly enough, we all sort of came to to prominence, if you will, through the same routes, which is now applying it in a way that was that was relevant uh socially in terms of autism treatment. So everybody's got some history with that path, which is what's been interesting for us, and saying we all started here, and then now a lot of people are doing something different, a different application of of behavior analysis, which is is very, very invigorating and enjoyable for us to hear about and uh discuss with somebody like you about.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, it's it's been cool. Yeah, I think to which your show has been your show's been cool, like just you know, just hearing everybody from like you're you're right, hearing everybody from these different disciplines. Sorry, sorry, Dan. Please continue. I just want to compliment you on that.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Well, thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, no, thank you so much. And that's why you are one of the people that like when we reschedule, like a couple people we have to get back on regularly, and you are certainly at the top of that list. Just reflecting on what you were saying, Mike, the the freedom piece. I think one time it's probably tested a lot from people from various different uh cultures, so I can just speak from my own, was like the the COVID vaccine. I felt people feel like their that was one of the first kind of not first, but one of the most recent, maybe biggest, where people felt like their freedom was being infringed on. And it maybe goes back to that that where you've got two consequences and they don't feel like both are reinforcing. There's a reinforcing and an aversive consequence, and yeah, like voting for president, yeah. Yep, right for president.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Both these options suck, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Well, well, that actually was gonna be my question, or another one, like with the the current situation on the the media, right? It's like a lot of the the media which might be posting negative things is now going to have funding withdrawn from them, so they probably feel like their freedom is being infringed on because again, they've got one reinforcing thing for them if they want funding, and then one aversive situation. So, my question to you is it seems like if we have two reinforcing options or multiple reinforcing options, then there's a level of freedom. If we have a reinforcing option and probably an aversive option, then freedom doesn't seem there. What if there are two aversive options? Do we now have freedom to choose the less aversive option, or is that no longer freedom because we're dealing with aversives?

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Or what if I give you too many options and you have a hard time choosing? Is that you know, like, or what if I what if I structure the options in a way that makes you choose one option over another? Like, you know, like I'm giving you I'm giving you what I want you to do, and I'm also giving you another worse option and another worse option than that. So you're most likely choosing what I want you to do. Yeah, there's a lot of different ways you can go there. Uh, from what I've seen in the choice literature, when people are faced with too many options, right? Then then they have a hard time choosing. So if you have like if you can imagine a buffet that has a lot of different preferred items, you know, and just having too many, for the most part, the the the it is more reinforcing to have options, but but that array of options is is just as reinforcing as that most preferred item or in the in the array. And then when if you're giving people an option of like, you know, they have terrible choices, then it's still as reinforcing as the most preferred item in the array. So like, so yeah, you might it's it's not the most reinforcing situation, and you might have not have people even choose, which you see that a lot of times with voting, people don't vote, you know, and and some people get mad at people who don't vote. I I didn't vote for a president in an election and a and a friend of mine, you know, because I didn't like either candidate. And this usually happens. I'm like, I I don't like this candidate, I don't like that candidate, you know. Like, why would I vote for someone I don't like? I'm not gonna vote for the other person just because I don't like that person more, you know. But yeah, so yeah, when you have like that situation, it's like it's like that's not even even to choose there is not as even as reinforcing, you know, it does still make a choice, but it's not like as it's not rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

And then somebody might say just the the civil liberty, the civil liberty of being able to vote is is their reinforcement, but uh that doesn't diminish what you just said in terms of well, well no, you're you're still choosing between the lesser two evils. Where's the where's the liberty in that in that sense? So there's certainly a lot of ways to slice this.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Do you do that with and I was thinking about it like in a therapy context, right? So you may have somebody that's severely depressed or something like that, and everything might seem and and please, uh, I'm pretty ignorant to this, so correct me if uh if I'm wrong with uh how I'm characterizing this, but this is just hypothetical. Maybe all of the behavioral alternatives seem aversive to them, right? Maybe well, I guess maybe it seems more reinforcing, but I don't want to stay at home, but I don't want to go out because then I'm gonna you know interact with people. So potentially everything either seems aversive or is framed within an aversive context. So are you then guiding them to kind of choose the less aversive? Because that that almost seems kind of like the analogous to the candidacy piece.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

And and I I would say that was like that would be more typical of like diagnosis where you're avoidant and and and depression, it's almost like more of an extinction scenario that like, well, I'm not I'm not I'm not feeling the same way about doing the things I used to do, you know. I like it doesn't feel good doing it anymore, you know, and so why should I do that? And for for the most part, uh the way you get someone out of depression is you get them doing those things again. It's like it doesn't matter if you like if you if you like doing it this time, this is something you used to like doing, so you should continue to do it. And a lot of times when when people reconnect with that, then they'll continue to do it. So you could tell it's reinforcing and and now it's rewarding again because you you see them continue. And and I think that's yeah, people can absolutely get stuck. They'll get they'll get stuck at home and and stuff like that. And it's kind of like I can't remember what Skinner called it, like in a bolus or something like that. It's a point where an animal during extinction, you know, just pretty much stops responding and you're looking for that next response, right? And then you're not getting it at all because there's nothing there, there's nothing there really to reinforce. So, you know, you go for a long period of time and you're ready to reinforce, but then you're waiting for the animal, but and was not really doing it.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Right, which I think does get applied to depression pretty commonly in terms of. If I go here, I get shocked. If I go here, I get shocked. Yeah, I'm just gonna stay in still.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Or I'm gonna stay here. You get a speeding ticket and you can pay$500 to do 50 hours of community service. Is that freedom? The ability to differentiate between two aversives.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Yeah, it's that's interesting. You know, yeah. Yeah, I would still say that I would still say that's freedom because like that is uh it's still reinforcing to choose the less aversive alternative. There was something my my uh mentor actually did research on that you can't, and and thank God they did this research. You can't do this research anymore. You can't shock animals as much as you can anymore, but certainly showed that like it is rewarding to go to a less aversive situation. So if you go from hell to purgatory, then you know you're gonna feel better about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Well, I I feel and I agree. I I think that is a a dangerous slope because I think sometimes the way that clinical ABA, like in the home, has been, has been that has been we're gonna be the people that, and again, I think it's it's changed over time as we become more ascent-based and and aware of things, but I I can remember a lot of times it was like we're gonna be the aversive that comes in and tells you to do a bunch of stuff, and then when you do all the stuff we ask you to do, then you can have a break away from us. So it was like the choice between kind of navigating two aversives, and we could say, Well, oh, look, it's it's reinforcing to be away from us, which I think is how a lot of like the original, and I wouldn't even say ABA because I think that's maybe doing ABA to service. I'll say yeah, autism treatment. Why am I the so you've got the conceptual service service delivery BSD, behavioral service delivery? That's thank you. Yeah, that may have been kind of like what you were saying, like the the weighing of two aversives and then attributing reinforcement to the less aversive.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, I was I was uh you made me think about something because I I was remember I was doing discrete trial with a client. And I know we talked about doing discrete trial before, and this this client, like, you know, it would if you make it really rewarding for them, they'll like they'll like don't yeah, they'll really like it. And then I'm telling them to take a break, and they're just kind of like hanging out there because I don't want it's like, yeah, like you know, it's like, oh, this is really rewarding. All right, go ahead and take a break. Well, now the break isn't rewarding because they'd rather be sitting at the table and getting all this reinforcement than instead of taking a break and not all of a sudden. So you get that situation too, and the client just kind of like hangs at hangs right near you and it's like, no, no, no, go take a break and play with toys. And they're like, No, I want to stay here, or you know, or they don't say anything, they just stay there, you know. But I've I've seen that too.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah, the idea of break too, in that sense, right? So the notion that the child might yeah, I've I've seen this with staff. Well, you're you're taking a break from the this idea of a demand you were placing on them, and they actually want to play with you with that toy, but you think it's break time. So we're seeing an opportunity to you know. to to to pair, to build rapport, to provide other layers of reinforcement there. It it's again it's it's it it's always a constant value. It's a constant I I I like to refer to the dance. You're kind of dancing, you know, and and sometimes you can speed up and sometimes you can slow down and it but you always have to be looking at that notion of of some active effort even if it's an active effort to really provide that negative reinforcement. I'm completely off your back right now because I feel like I did push you too hard and maybe you were vocalizing that and now I'm going to get off you know your back and it doesn't necessarily change the possibility that that during that break time that client might still want to engage in something that isn't directed by me but not directed by them.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

I have a question for you Scott kind of regarding this I didn't know this is where this conversation was going to go but it's it's certainly a fun and interesting one to think about because the initial thought I have with freedom is it's interesting right because there it there has to be some bounds to it because right like I could be like well freedom is me being able to go just take anything that I want from somebody that's that's freedom I can go just take something but Amazon would be like no you have to pay a certain amount of money to purchase this item you can't just go take whatever you want. So now there's barriers on my my freedom with it with any context. So that's kind of the first thought so I I do have two choices but unabated freedom. So there's there's still going to be some confines with that. And then the second part of my question with that is going back to the philosophical assumptions that we talked about and kind of like perception versus realism like the idea of I feel like we have the right to peacefully assemble or freedom of speech or whatever. And I feel that I have that freedom but I actually might not right I might peacefully assemble of which I thought was free and still get arrested for it so I wasn't free. So kind of the the realism versus the the perception and I don't know if you can ever know what the realism is you can only live throughout your perception or what you perceive is freedom until you test it and then it gets proven free or not free. So I don't know those those are just two thoughts I had I wanted to kind of run those by you and and get your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah yeah if you if you go with the free the feeling of freedom as an indicator this is my thought on it which I feel like feelings are aren't good indicators. Tells us something about what's going on around us but shouldn't we shouldn't trust it all the way because of habituation doesn't really tell us a magnitude you know of what's going on but if you go if you go with a feeling of freedom then Skinner feels like if you arrange the continues to write you will get this feeling of freedom. And and he always felt it was like an escape from aversive you know you get away from the aversive and you feel you feel better escaping from the aversive but it could also be like winning in counter control you know like all right well like I got to choose tonight. Like you might be arguing where are we going to eat tonight? All right like she chose this that you and then you can feel like oh good we're going there and I don't have to go to that place that she wants to go to because I don't like that place. And then I'll be like miserable for like a while for the hour and a half that I'm there like eating or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Dan's wrong anyway. So whatever Dan choose in real life is wrong. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah yeah you know if you add some people to your family you don't get to choose at all Dan you don't even get to say if once you have kids and the kids start decide I don't get to listen to I don't even get to listen to my music in the car anymore. You know so we're talking about freedom here and it's kind of like yeah it's great and you're the kids and the kids I don't know because you're listening to the ABA on top podcast.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

That's why you're not listening to the music in the car.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Are you kidding do you think my kids would let me listen to ABA on top or they is as soon as I get in the car they like my daughter plugs in her phone and then I'm it's all Tower Swift. You know after Taylor Swift.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Not not too bad I've I'm I'm I have to I have to endure that here and there and I've I've I've learned to enjoy it. Right now with my five year old it's all k-pop demon hunters so k-pop demon hunters oh wow so it's all k-pop stuff and I gotta tell you it's grown on me.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

I'm not I'm not gonna lie it's grown on me now I've been humming the song all day you know it's it's all right yeah I I I do like the girl world you know it was different from me growing up but there's certainly a different perspective it's all you know softball not baseball it's you know cheerleading not whatever we would do you know so yeah pretty it's it's different it's different it's pretty fun and you know I know all the princesses I know all the Disney princesses you know they're all around us right now that you mentioned cheerleading I I wanted to circle back to that just in terms of the rigor and the intensity of that in in getting and developing that skill it's interesting to consider the reinforcement systems because a lot of that's really hard to get to and it's painful and and it's you know it's rigorous and then I don't know there there's some prospective you know delivery of reinforcement that maybe drives your daughter I don't know you have any insight on that I mean you probably see her do things that uh you would never attempt or oh yeah yeah they put they lift girls up lift them above their heads and they spin them around and then then like you know and this and this girl I mean really like these these these girls are like you know like my daughter's five foot something so these girls are like over five foot off the ground you know and the stay standing in the air and then they're being spun around and and and things like that. It was really interesting seeing her. So she she's been cheerleading for a while and she went she started uh high school and and she tried out for her high school and made it and they really like her as a cheerleader there too. They keep running say oh you're gonna be awesome when you're a senior the the amount of work it is is like extreme. I have not used behavior analysis there much. I think if if I would I'd probably be looking at like you know mastery approaches influencing approaches you know basically and like where they fit and what you can do. But but you're talking about like you know almost 20 girls doing synchronized moves and stuff like that. They don't throw them up in there but they do lift them up. It's and it's it's dangerous. You know girls can fall and stuff like that. My daughter has like scratches all over her wrist just from like putting another girl up and and like something swinging around and her hitting her wrist and stuff like that. So it's certainly a lot of work and they could they compete right so they they do competitions there this isn't like sidelines here. If you think is this isn't like there are a sideline at a football you know a football game this is like they they skip that like that's not important. That's the littlest part that's like has nothing to do with what we won't want to do. We want to compete against the other cheerleaders and like you know to to see who's better. Their program was like nowhere next year last year and they got a new coach and and she really turned the team around they got fourth in the state and had never placed in the states before so which is like which is great and they feel like they have a chance in in Disney World but but but let me tell you something if we're talking about situations where you don't feel free like I have no idea what my my schedule is coming up at the end of next week because I'll be in Disney World. I don't know if I'll be able to go to the parks and parks or even see Mickey Mouse at all and might be driving her around from one practice to another practice in one event to another event and even on the weekends now like I I am glad to go to work on Monday because weekends are so busy work is a lot less work than the weekends. Right? So like when I go back to work I'm like oh thank thank goodness thank goodness I'm here just you know I just need a break I need work to be my break from like from the weekends because lots are running around but but I love it.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

I'm just in super dad mood right now I I do love it and and yeah it's fun it puts a big like that smile that you have on your face Mike that right now that that's that's what it does to you that puts that smile right like it doesn't sound like your schedule's very free but I'm sure you feel very free in your role as a father and that's exactly what you want to do and and even if it's not the you know the idea of driving around from practice to practice instead of uh enjoying the parts at Disney World may not sound very free but you're doing exactly what you want to do and yeah I there's exactly there's nothing harder and and and yet more rewarding I think than I'm gonna say fatherhood. I don't know what it is to be a mom. You know I would say parenting in general but yeah I appreciate that you notice the smile on my face.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

It's it is it's an incredible drive it's an incredible motivating it is it's it's like this motivated like all of a sudden you're just willing to do anything for them you know it's like a switch that turns wait you wait Dan well you're enjoying your bachelorhood I'm sorry but but you you know my uh domestic partner for like 14 years so we're my bachelorhood's a long time a long time ago but yeah I don't think we're gonna have kids it's nice to hand them back or it's not they're they're really cute like Mike's five year old is adorable and it's nice to just be able to leave if I want you know talk about instructional control like we we talked about trying to teach parents how to do if if we could do instructional control like 40% as well as kids do it to parents oh we would be we'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Yeah nothing gives me a greater sense of empathy and and uh compassion during our my professional work than being a parent and especially now with my five year old you know I Dan you kind of joke that that I had her just so that I could you know work up my chops again but that's not necessarily true but I you know it's it's interesting because this whole progression over the past five years she has literally been my driving force and you know I'll come home and and just think about my favorite phrase is saying I can preach this b ABA stuff all day and and parent education and then I have to go do it. And uh nothing nothing gives me a greater sense of empathy or compassion for the the clients I work with and really understanding that you know I I don't want to with all due respect to all parties involved my uh my child's neurotypical and and you wouldn't expect I don't have to run around with you know to to do all these therapies with them and and uh all these things that would seem like constraints and yet you know parenting and and doing it well and being present and and and and being there all as much as I can that that's a lot of work. It's a lot of work and and you hope that you can derive some level of reinforcement and enjoyment and I certainly do. It's it's incredible. Yeah yeah it's like a never ending bucket it's like a never ending bucket it really is I mean it it it you know it gives you a sense of purpose I sometimes wonder is you know this is really the those those those three organisms are really the main reason why I you know tolerate the world on most days just like I don't act I don't even actively think about them it's just like I I've got a reason to be here and I I'm pretty sure they like having me around and for that reason I'm gonna stick around.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah you definitely have a uh a joy and a passion when you're with your kids it's it's amazing I have one more question if yeah do I have a few minutes or do you have a hard no I'm good so I was thinking about your top down versus bottom up kind of premise and I want to relate that to without picking aside I remember it was like two weeks ago or whatever where that lady Renee Wood or whatever got shot in Minnesota got killed. And I remember when that happened I was I had a bunch of migraines so I've tried to stay off social media but those that week I was just like in bed and I had nothing to do so I was scrolling social media. And when that happened I mean the footage was the footage and again I don't know how many of these people are real or not or whatever but literally like half of the Facebook feed was like the officer was to the side he had no business shooting her and the other half was like the officer was like in in front she was about to run him over he was justified so the footage was the footage but you have people that watch the same exact footage coming up with two different conclusions. So my question to you is kind of behaviorally like your thoughts on that is that people have like a preconceived notion and then it literally changes their perception are they ignoring their perception and their thoughts and just kind of going from there what what are your thoughts on that phenomenon how the the footage can be the same and you got people watching it coming up with two totally different conclusions well I do have a couple thoughts on that and one please one thought I have on it is is this this word and this is something that we can actually measure.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

We usually measure this in the generalized matching equation bias. And bias is a disproportionate weight for or against a thing and it's it's behavior allocated to one response regardless of reinforcement contingencies right and it might be like an idiosyncratic preference like I favor my right hand I'm just going to use my right hand more but it could be about knowledge if you think about it knowledge biases us and we are biased against things we don't know how can we bias be biased for something we don't know you know about and then you know ignorance uh also you know so we're like biased I guess I guess we're biased towards the knowledge and and against what is not known what we don't know and being unbiased is that like is like being what free from influence right so it comes back to that that kind of word like that you know we bring freedom like freedom you know bias is like uh unbiased is free from influence one of the things in act I and I think about this often and I know you guys talked about the hexaflex briefly with Matt I think Matt Tapia and I was surprised that you never heard of the hexaflex before because I I was like I was like wow the hexaflex is like one of the main things but it's like a it's like a little six pointed map to talk about the the the processes and the top process is or usually at the top it's mindfulness is present moment responding and there's two two point two there's a definition for it and like a two point definition and it's responding to basically I'm gonna explain it like a behavior analyst responding to present moment sensory input non-judgmentally so basically without bias. And my clients kind of sometimes they kind of know how to do that. Respond to it as if you've never experienced before and we do this exercise called the candy exercise where people take a piece of candy and they're eating and they put it in their mouth and stuff like that. And a lot of times people have a hard time with the candy first they're like oh I've seen this candy before I've had it before you know I didn't like it when I was a kid and it's like no we need to approach this without bias. Like you know what can you tell me about the candy that has nothing to do with your experience with the candy. You know and then they start talking about like oh the wrapper is red and it has these little yellow things on it and and they start describing it like like you know with their senses instead of possible though is it possible to approach something without bias you I mean I wonder because can you get back I wonder because even I'm like I'm asking them to do it. So like here's the environment control and behavior. So like are you you're really approaching it without bias but I think in in in a relational frame theory sense that like people kind of know a way that it is that they can act that way or act against it or act similar or act you know so it kind of makes it a thing you know that way. But I I always question that can you really be truly unbiased towards something you know because it's it's part of it's part of the act process but in the long run I think that people can have an idea of how they can be less biased. You know what I mean? And they can act more that way. Right. And if they could do that with ever approach being completely unbiased, I don't think that's possible because I believe that environment control is our behavior. I think it's the the opportunities that were you know presented for us in our reinforcement history our history and reinforcement and that's what's that's what determines behavior. I feel pretty confident in that because I could use ABC data sheets to predict someone's behavior. I could do a functional behavior assessment we could use these the different equations to predict people's behavior you know so we we know and and in one of our equations we have this parameter B and we can figure out what B is I was using it on I was looking at the Eagles their plane calling this year because there was a lot of comments on their plane polling and they did fire their offensive coordinator and they're getting a new one and one of the things I looked at in in the middle of the year I'm teaching this EAB class and I'm showing showing the students the matching law and they're like well can you like show us a modern application right so I showed them uh the article by Derek Reid from 2005 that looked at the NFL play calling and looked at applied the matching law to NFL play calling whether the coach the uh play caller is going to call a run or a pass. Right and I applied it to the Eagles play calling and and and I and I asked a simple question because the Eagles went to the Super Bowl last year and I asked are the Eagles more biased towards the run this year than last year according to their offensive coordinator there were they were and they just run it just to run it. But I felt last year they ran it they were really persistent with the run. I think their strategy was we're gonna run the ball run the ball run the ball we're gonna wear down the defensive line and then in the second half we'll continue to run it and then we'll be able to run all over them which worked really well. Saquon Barkley had like a phenomenal year he had a record set almost reset the record if he would have played the whole game the last game he would have said it. So it worked really well and then and then this year didn't have so much success and so we did this equation and lo and behold that last year they were like more biased towards the run. They stuck with the run even when it didn't work even when the reinforcement wasn't there they still ran the ball they ran the ball they ran the ball and the result of this was having a terrific running game and then if you look at this year they did have a different play caller they lost to Kellen Moore to like the Saints Kellen Moore became a head coach so they had another play caller and he didn't call he didn't call the game the same they uh you could tell they passed more I mean they had more passes than runs so they're not they're certainly not running it as much as they they did before and the bias was different. And when we did the equation for the class we found that they were less biased towards a run this year than when they were last year. Some of the funny things that kind of occurred I I looked at uh like all like the data from 2004 I guess it was the 2003 2004 season and the Eagles went to the and that was in Derek Reed's study. And the Eagles went to the Super Bowl that year too and when I was messing around with the equation like I used the sense there's like there's two parameters there's bias and sensitivity to reinforcement. I was using that sensitivity parameter that they had in 2004 and I ended up with the same bias for two for last year which tells me that there is only one variable difference between the play calling from when they went to the Super Bowl in 2003 2004 and when they went to the Super Bowl last year which I thought was like really really interesting you know what that is what that variable is I don't know it's either it's either the bias or sensitivity but like there isn't much difference in their play calling and and I don't know if it's because like that's just the way the Eagles call it you know like the Eagles as an organization they impress this idea on the on the play caller this is how we want it called or if that's just a recipe to win a Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Well I remember last time we were well I think this year too uh because I followed them pretty closely because I had so many on my fantasy team the the O line just didn't seem like they performed this year like they did last year. Different people yeah no kill C Lane Johnson was out.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Last time we connected I I think and and I'll talk about this because tomorrow the reason we're doing it today is because tomorrow's NFC championship I think we were prophesizing a Cowboys Eagles NFC championship game what happened gentlemen goodness well we we split the series so we're we're good there I did I did consider that to be a win on like that was well I was riding high for a little for just a few games there right we you know we got the Eagles we got the Chiefs there was that random stat that came out I guess the the Cowboys are the only team to ever do that in one season is beat the the two preceding Super Bowl teams and then the two preceding champions which you know again I had to hold on to something gentleman come on but yeah no I mean I I didn't expect the the Cowboys to be to be in the NC I thought this was their year going to be well it's always their year perpetually it's anybody's year really right how many even Dan's team it's their year every year.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

How many God please so if when Suzanne sent me the the paperwork is that is there anything you definitely don't want to talk about I put on there the Dallas Cowboys like just to mess around with Mike I got no problem I got no problem talking about them. But and then last time you had me on you came to me in a corner how would you have the Dallas Cowboys win a Super Bowl and made me say it and I was like after we recorded that episode I just had these thoughts like I hope they don't contact me and offer me that something like amazing like oh I really want you know we really want you to be there. You know and then and then you're asking me like if I think a behavior analysis would help them win a Super Bowl and to be honest with you I don't think they're they're doing database decision making at on the Dows Cat I think is whatever whatever the the owner wants to do. Whoever Jerry can say more to yeah it's Jerry's world um man and he goes by his gut you know he'll just go by I this I think is right yeah he just goes by the feeling and we already established that feelings are unreliable.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

No to to that you know to that extent the I losing Parsons was felt devastating and then at the end of the day I don't I don't know. I mean the defense stunk anyway and it wasn't like he was the I think people had figured him out. You know I loved him as a player and then Jerry makes a decision like that, and I'm devastated, and then at the end of the day, it's like, okay, well, I certainly miss him.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

Oh, you're really upset about that. I was at first.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

It didn't make sense to me, right? And then once we got into a few games, it's like, okay, you know, it's done. You have to accept it. But at the same time, I do, you know, looking back at at some of his final games, I I think people had figured out the uh the defensive formation. I think people had had figured him out pretty well.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

So yeah, you think so?

SPEAKER_00 44:29

He's a great player. I take nothing away from him, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

He did have an impact with Green Bay. Um, but you got a couple draft picks back for him, right? You got like, I think didn't you get a couple first rounders? I mean, that that should really help me rebuild. I felt like I felt like their offense was actually fine this year. The Cowboys. I thought their their offense was good.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

I enjoyed, I enjoyed uh yeah, yeah, Pickens and uh I mean C D Lambs. He's got his few drops per game, but he does some pretty cool things. So I enjoyed watching them. Yeah. It was it was a better season than before.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

It's like baffling though, and like and then it's like they had the good offense, and then I don't know. Sometimes I look at the cowboys and I'm like, why can't they win? Like, what is kind of like they're like they have everything they need, don't they? They have all they have good players, and they're gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

CD Lamb syndrome that happens. There's a certain secondary stunk.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

I mean you know what it reminds me of. Is is the Cowboys are the NFC version of the Chargers. They always have really good, and we know the Chargers because we're in San Diego, like they always have really good rosters, and there was one year the Chargers were actually number one in offense and defense and didn't even make the playoffs because their special team sucked. But they just remind me of each other. They just like and then the the next like level below that is the Dolphins and the Falcons, but like the well, just the Chargers Cowboys, the idea that you could be up by 20 in the third quarter, and it's still not a sure win, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Like well, I guess that can be applied to several teams, but Cowboys Chargers, man, they're just notorious for that. Like, you know, oh but it's a great game. And my wife's a Chargers fan, and she'll she'll do crazy things like turn away from the TV because she's convinced that if she's watching the game, they do worse. It's like, yeah, but you gotta honey, but you gotta enjoy the gate, you gotta what though? Okay, don't tell me the score. Okay, I won't tell you if they're doing well. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

There's your variable time reinforcement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's differential reinforcement, no doubt. Do you think you could um so if we're if you if we're not gonna approach the behavioral strategy to get the cowboys to win the Super Bowl? Could we develop a design? No, no, that's fine. Could we develop a design to get Cowboys fans to not think this is gonna be their year? How many years does it have to go with them not winning for them to realize that it's not right?

SPEAKER_00 46:42

I've got a I think the better question is do you get to trash talk if you've got no loyalties to a team? That would be, I think, the the bigger ethical question here, Dan. I mean, do you or do you have a ticket to trash talk if really you don't have a team?

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Well, I think it allows me to manage my biases so that I can watch the game objectively and unbiased.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

I was gonna say this earlier. I think that by the other side of bias is being partial, and that's what you're lacking, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Anyway, you know, just just to let you know, we can measure that bias. We can absolutely measure it and see how like and we could see if you're if Mike's bias is more than Dan's bias and you compare it, you know, for the Cowboys. I would expect I would expect Mike's bias for the cowboys to be pretty significant, I would think.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

It's it's lifelong, yeah. It's lifelong. Gentlemen, we've covered a lot of ground. We've may have lost a few people here at the end, but we enjoyed it. So that's our that's our freedom to do so. Dr. Scott, sir, anytime you want to come back on, we will certainly approach you again in the near future to come back on. And you know, again, open invitation to use this platform if if you see fit and you see useful. It's it's been an incredibly, incredibly invigorating conversation. We can't thank you enough for coming back around a second time, for spending uh almost three hours with us. So thank you so much for your time. Uh, we wish you luck and all your endeavors. Certainly wish your daughter luck and her cheer competition here next weekend and have a have a great time in Florida. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Wish you luck with seven. Anything on your end? Any closing points or anything you wanted to say, plug whatever?

SPEAKER_02 48:12

I just like you know, thanks for having me. I feel so lucky to be able to talk about this. It's like, you know, it was it's awesome, you know, and be able to talk to you guys because you know, I do listen and you do have great guests, so guys, please please keep it up. And and just to be able to talk about like freedom, you know, something that like, hey, this is yeah, I when I was preparing for this, I was like, oh, I gotta do my research. And I realized like I had already done it, I've been doing it for a long time because that was my approach in the community was just like all based on behavior analysis. So I just started going back to the that that literature, and I I had like you know, five different PowerPoints that I'm pulling from just to you know, just to get everything together. But it's is I already did the research, it's something I was I've been doing for a long time, and it's like great to be able to talk about it, especially at such a significant time because the topic is going to come up. We're gonna be talking about freedom. Freedom is gonna be a big topic, you know, especially you know, towards the summer, you know, and behavior analysts should be in that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

We agree. No, we we certainly agree, and thank you for your preparedness. A lot of guests pose that question, and we, you know, like we say in the intro, or we we used to say in the old intro, or no, I say it at the end, this is live and unfiltered. You know, we we want that. So we certainly appreciate your level of preparedness, and then moreover, what you just said, the idea that you you kind of put it together to think about it, and then you came on here and you riffed. You talked about it, you know, in casual conversation that was elevated. You really brought our game up today. We truly appreciate that. These are topics that you know, conceptually, philosophically, we've seldom, if ever, touched on ABA on tap. So we can't thank you enough for your preparedness and for elevating our game today and for spending a nice uh amount of time with us. So, unless anything anybody uh says wants to say anything else, I've got my closing points and you guys can certainly jump in here. So, what I've got is explore the different flavors of determinism, enjoy free will, the free will of your options and always analyze responsibly. Cheers, Dr. Scott. Thank you so much. Yum. Delish. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

ABA on tap is reported live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.