81: Three Unique Tools for Coping with Childless Grief, with Lisa Hohenadel

Lisa Hohenadel uses an intriguing behavioural therapy method to help childless women work through the grief and triggers.  It's called Dialectical Behaviour Therapy or DBT.  I've never come across this particular type of therapy before and I wanted to hear more about how Lisa uses it in her coaching practice. 

Here's what you'll discover in this episode:

• what is DBT and how Lisa discovered that it would work on her own grief while coming to terms with the fact that she would never be a mom
• how to manage some of the trickier situations we encounter as childless women
• 3 DBT tools for managing triggers and grief and how to use them on yourself

Get a free copy of Lisa's "10 Tips for Managing your Triggers":
Send an email to familyredifinedwithlisa@gmail.com or go to Lisa's Instagram and DM the word "resource" for a copy.

Where to find Lisa:
Instagram: @familyredefinedwithlisa
Facebook: Family Redefined with Lisa

Where to find Sheri:
Instagram @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca

If you want to create your best life in 2024, even without kids, download my free guide.  You'll discover how to find purpose, joy and fulfillment and what might be standing in the way. 
Click here for your free guide

Transcript

Sheri: 0:02

Hi, I'm Sherri Johnson, and you are about to discover how to embrace your life as a childless woman who wanted to have a family and never could. This is where we combine mindset shifting tools with practical tips so you can break free of outdated societal norms that condition us all to believe that women without kids just don't measure up to the moms. It's where we take action on processing grief and accelerating the healing journey so you can feel free. When childless women awaken their self-worth, they transform from hopeless and inadequate to worthy, accepting and purposeful. Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of light bulb moments that will shift your perspective as a childless woman about yourself, about your innate power to change yourself, your future and maybe even the world we live in. If that's what you want, then keep on listening.

Sheri: 0:57

Hello and welcome back to the Awakening Worth podcast. I have another special guest with me today. Her name is Lisa Honadal and she's a coach in the childless space of helping women who wanted kids to get through the grief. I am really excited to have this chat because she offers something that I have never even heard about, and I'm always excited when I hear about new maybe not so new, but new to me alternative therapies and methods to work through all the things we feel as childless women. So welcome Lisa. I'm really delighted to have you.

Sheri: 1:38

Thank you, I'm very excited to be here, awesome. Well, let's. I like to dive into the good stuff really quick, so I would love to hear more about your background and how you came to be on the childless path. Will you share with us?

Lisa: 1:56

Okay, so my husband and I met a little later in life and we knew we both wanted children. So we knew pretty quickly that we wanted to spend forever together, which is sweet.

Lisa: 2:07

And so we started trying for kids right away and it wasn't happening, and so we did seek some support from a fertility clinic. It wasn't a really great experience the first time we had gotten engaged in that time, and so we decided that, like, let's just put our energy into the wedding and we'll come back to this when that's over. So that's what we did, and we actually got pregnant naturally after we got married. Unfortunately, that pregnancy ended in miscarriage, which was really devastating and difficult.

Lisa: 2:37

And then I like dove in headfirst into like the fertility treatment world and like went in with this completely naive idea that I would go in for like one round of cycle monitoring and be pregnant, like that's all I would need. Oh, yeah, yeah, that didn't happen obviously.

Lisa: 2:57

So we did I don't even know how many rounds of cycle monitoring and nothing was happening. And nothing was happening. And I did medicated cycle monitoring, unmedicated cycle monitoring. We took a break. We came back to it, decided to try IVF Again.

Lisa: 3:15

I went into it completely naive. I knew that the pregnancy might not stick, but I did not know that my body might not respond to the medications and that I wouldn't even be able to get to the egg retrieval stage. So that's what happened. And we didn't get to the egg retrieval stage and I was just so upset, so many complicated emotions, we decided to try one more time. The doctors thought it would be worth trying again and the exact same thing happened. So I was pretty broken hearted.

Lisa: 3:47

My husband was my rock I'm so grateful to him and again I was like okay, I'm just going to dive into an egg donor. And my husband just looked at me and was like, are you sure? Like I'm okay if it's just you and I, like, are you really sure that you want to keep going? That caused me to sort of take a step back and do some counseling and some work and really figure out whether that was really the best thing for us. I mean, the first couple of years of our marriage was that's all this was about, and I decided that ultimately I didn't want to go that route and I really just wanted to find a way to find that hope and joy in our lives again and look forward to our future together. However that was going to look, I had to figure out how to navigate that and that's what brought me here to wanting to help other women.

Sheri: 4:34

You said so many things in there that other women who have been on the infertility path will resonate with. One of them was this naivety that we go into that whole process with thinking it's going to work, and there's so many women out there who now see that it doesn't always. Yet I don't know where we get this idea that it does. I don't know about you, lisa. When I sat in front of the fertility doctors they showed me the stats and I still I just thought, well, that's not me, I just assumed you know, and I didn't get to IVF. But I did IUI, intrauterine and insemination and I remember going in for the very first one. The medication did work. I mean not that well, I didn't have that many follicles which I didn't know at the time. I think you see that one right.

Sheri: 5:28

Yeah, and I remember the doctor coming in and doing what he had to do and then he looked at me and he crossed his fingers and I just went, awesome, like it felt so strange. It was such a weird experience of a doctor's just basically tried to make me conceive without my husband even there, and then he's crossing his fingers for us, like it just felt really strange. But I just sort of walked out of there assuming, yeah, I'm never going to see you again. Great, this is going to be it. And then a whole bunch more of those, and then we went down the IVF and the donor egg as well. One thing that you said as well that I didn't know I guess I knew this but I didn't really think about it was the fact that the medication may not even work, that you might even not get to that egg retrieval stage, and I wonder how often that happens.

Lisa: 6:19

And I think it happens a lot, and I feel like part of the reason that we, as women, go into these experiences with so much naivety, as you had said, is that I think Hollywood portrays it as really easy and successful. Or people don't share the unsuccessful stories, they only share the successful stories. They're talking to somebody who tells you their sister's, brother's, cousin's best friend right, how many times did you hear that in your journey? Because I lost count. And I feel like that really leads us to go into this, thinking okay, this isn't the way I wanted to conceive and I'm going to end this with a baby.

Sheri: 6:57

You're so right. The number of people that not just told me their success story but that actually tried to convince me to do IVF, I don't know. I didn't want to fill my body up with medication. I was on a really natural sort of path from a few years prior to that. I didn't want to do it at first. I really wanted to try naturally and I'd been able to get pregnant a couple of times. So I just thought at some point it's going to stick. The longer I waited, the more people would say have you tried IVF Like it worked for me? I really think you should. You know convincing, trying to convince me that I should try it.

Lisa: 7:35

And I think that comes from a good place, like, I think it's people genuinely wanting to see this happen for us. I agree, and I think you know what I would imagine your hope for talking more openly about it is the same as mine, which is to create more awareness out there so that people know that, like, sometimes, what's most helpful to us is just sit with us. Just sit with us and our feelings don't offer us solutions, don't tell us the success stories. Just sit with us and just simply ask what we might need, because maybe we need to just go out for an ice cream and talk about the new shoes we bought last week or something right.

Sheri: 8:13

Yeah.

Lisa: 8:15

I know that a lot of people that are close to me have learned a lot since I've started talking a lot more openly. I'm sure you have the same experience, so yeah.

Sheri: 8:23

And the other thing that I would say is that sometimes, like when you're trying to accept the path, you know that we're going to try to do this without children, and then it's really not helpful when people give you advice on how to have kids because you're in that process of okay, I'm trying to let go of that. So this is actually even less helpful than it even was before, because I just need you to support what I'm doing now instead of trying to convince me to go back the other way.

Lisa: 8:55

Well, it's such a good point. That happened to me just last week.

Sheri: 8:59

Mm, someone still trying to convince you to go back and try again.

Lisa: 9:02

I mean it was a complete stranger, but I talked about it actually on my page on Instagram. But I was getting a pedicure and the woman asked me if I had kids and I said no and she just kind of like not yet you know, and then I was like no, no, like that's not happening.

Sheri: 9:18

Mm-hmm.

Lisa: 9:19

And then the conversation completely stopped, which I can navigate that now, but there was a time in my life that that would have been really difficult for me to navigate. How do you navigate that now? I just tell them really bluntly, honestly, like I guess I probably take a deep breath and I remind myself that I'm okay, that like I'm okay with the disengage that we made and I'm happy and I'm content, and then I honestly say no, I don't and I can't have them and there's no room for discussion there. Yeah, it depends on the person, I guess. But yeah, I'm honest and not rude. I don't like want to be rude. That's the world we live in. People ask that question, Although I had a friend tell me recently that a neighbor asked them who's all in your household? And I love that question.

Sheri: 10:07

I saw that on an Instagram post recently. It was basically a post that gave potential questions to find out. To me it was like how to find out if you have kids without asking if you have kids, right. And one of the questions was you know you're inviting a new neighbor over for dinner. How many places should I set? Yeah? Or you know someone new house next door or whatever. How many people are you sharing your home with? I mean, it's the same question, it is. It stops the awkwardness, I think.

Sheri: 10:39

Yeah, yeah I agree, then you can just move on to another subject without the other person feeling like they put their foot in their mouth. Yeah, it's not awkward for anybody?

Lisa: 10:49

Yeah, but it's taken me a while to be able to answer that question. I mean, I still have a full time job on top of this and I work in children's mental health and so I'm dealing with parents and children all the time. So that's a tough one. You know I'll get the way. You don't have kids. You don't understand.

Sheri: 11:07

Oh, yes, because you're in the profession of helping kids, yeah, and yet you don't understand. Yeah, that's a really tough one to navigate, actually, because I find that one more triggering than the question you have kids, because anyone who has kids, you know, with the exception of people who are in an industry that serves children teachers, daycare, children's mental health, child services, all those sorts of things where they're interacting with kids all the time everyone else probably learned how to parent by being a kid from their own parents, and so you and I and our listeners have the same experience.

Sheri: 11:55

We learned how to parent from our parents.

Sheri: 12:00

And that's how we know how to change a diaper. I know how to care for a child. My nieces and nephews have stayed with us for periods of you know, periods of time when we're babysitting them, we know when my sisters go away or whatever, so we know how to care for kids. It's not that we don't understand. I think that's made that said from a perspective of they're in pain themselves and they only see that someone who's experiencing that pain as well can understand, which I think is kind of. Actually, now that I think about it, is the same for us.

Sheri: 12:39

We think that only a childless person could possibly understand us and what we're going through. But there are parents out there who are really understanding and empathetic and really try to put themselves in our shoes. Or they've gone through infertility or they were single for most of their adult lives and they remember that experience of being single and on the verge of. You know the clock is ticking and they remember it. Well, they can understand where we're at. Lsr yeah, that's a good point. Lsr yeah, this is all just kind of coming to me as we're talking.

Sheri: 13:16

Yeah, I mean, we're all the same, we're all people, we all think that nobody understands whatever specific pain we're dealing with LSR and yet there are people who will sit with us and try to understand. You start to find them, lsr.

Lisa: 13:31

Yeah, I love it when people ask me to help them understand, like that's so lovely when people show that interest. Interest isn't the right word, I guess compassion, lsr.

Sheri: 13:44

Yeah, you know, I had someone say to me recently I think I talked about this on one of my previous episodes I was out for breakfast with a friend and two of her friends and two of her parents. One is a step-parent but doesn't have any children of her own. I didn't find that out until after. So they're all you know. The topic of kids comes up, of course, because they're such a big part of their lives. And eventually one of them turned to me and said do you have kids? Because I wasn't really contributing to their conversation and people noticed that. So then they don't know how to change the subject or include you or without asking that question, and I said no, we don't. And she right away chimed in and said but you're a dog, mom. I had already said I had a dog and I said I am. But you know, we also tried and I wanted to be a parent.

Sheri: 14:37

And she said oh my goodness, what do I say next? She actually asked me how? What's the best way to respond? You'll say that instead of just getting all awkward and maybe it helped that I wasn't awkward I was just open and honest and just said no, this is how it is, you know, then she could ask another question. It gave her an opening, yeah, and she wanted to know how do I navigate this when I've asked a question and I feel like I've put my foot in my mouth and I don't know what to say next? I don't want to assume that you wanted them. I don't want to assume that you didn't. So what do I do?

Sheri: 15:16

We all had a conversation about it and then-.

Lisa: 15:18

That's amazing.

Sheri: 15:19

Yeah, and then the other woman who was a step parent didn't have children of her own. Then she started to chime in and talk about her experience and it became this really open, honest. I mean it was probably the most connected part of the whole morning where we actually felt this, even though we were all coming from different places. Two of them didn't know me, I didn't know them, but it was actually a really meaningful conversation.

Lisa: 15:46

I love that. I get that question a lot from women, like how do I navigate those moments where I'm in a group of other women who are all moms and I'm not a mom, and it's tough? I don't think there's an easy answer. I think it's like you said right it depends on who you're with and how comfortable you are.

Sheri: 16:05

And where you're at. It takes time. Yes, I think it takes time and practice. Yeah it's practice. I agree it's practicing. Speaking about your experiences, If you're so new and aren't even used to talking about it, say on Instagram, in the childless space like in a very safe, comfortable place you're really new to the whole experience then you just might not be in that frame of mind to even say anything.

Sheri: 16:37

And you just take a few deep breaths through the awkwardness and wait for someone to change the subject. But once you begin to practice that sharing of your voice, it does become easier to talk about your experience, no matter who is in front of you.

Lisa: 16:54

Yeah, I'll never forget. We were still trying at this point and we had gone to a friend's birthday party and it was at a restaurant. I was talking with the women and my husband was talking with all the men and they were all talking about their kids and I went to the bathroom and just cried Not a long time, but I needed to express it so that I could pull myself together and come back. And so I talk to my clients about that.

Lisa: 17:22

Sometimes you have to do that, yeah pull yourself out, better to do that yes, I agree Rather than sticking to it and trying not to fall apart, because I always found then the falling apart was so much harder and harder to dig myself out of. But yeah, I remember that vividly.

Sheri: 17:39

So I totally agree with you when you are in that situation and you feel emotional, you like to try to hold it together and pretend that nothing is going on, in fit of you. I think is so much harder than just excusing yourself for a minute or a few minutes or however long you need.

Lisa: 17:59

And just go let it out.

Sheri: 18:00

Yeah, I think it's so important yeah then you can come back more composed and having honored that emotion, like honored yourself and what you needed in that moment.

Lisa: 18:10

That's so key, right. Honor our grief. I heard this a long time ago, but grief isn't something that ever goes away, right? We just learned to sort of grow around it.

Sheri: 18:19

So tell me more about that, because I think I'm two minds about it. I'm more than two minds, I mean I have many different ideas about this. So I've seen that post as well. And it sounds like you agree with it?

Lisa: 18:33

I do. I guess it depends on the circumstances. I guess I think about my recent loss of my dad and I think that that grief isn't going to go away. I will grow around it, but it's going to be there with me because I will always miss him. My childless grief is a little bit different. I do feel like it's still there, but I think the difference between the two is that it can get smaller and have less of an impact on me as I learn sort of my triggers and how to manage those, Whereas for my dad it's something that it's not necessarily going to get smaller. I'm just going to learn to live with it. I guess if that makes sense, Does that make sense?

Sheri: 19:14

Yeah, and I wonder, see, I haven't had the experience. I've lost lots of people in my life and I've lost some close people, but I was quite young when that happened, so I don't think I grieved in the same way as I would as an adult, and so I don't have that comparison of having lost someone like a parent or a sibling or a partner or a child, although I would challenge you there because you have lost a child. Well, but I mean a living child. So I think where.

Sheri: 19:46

I'm going with this is, I think, when you have a miscarriage or infertility or for whatever reason you don't get to realize the dream of having children, you're losing your future With, say, a parent in your situation. You're losing your future with that person. You're not losing the past, but you have all the memories of the past. I don't know how to describe it, but it's like you have a past and a future. Our situation you only have the future.

Lisa: 21:26

Yeah, actually I never thought about like that. Yeah, that's true, so it's a really good point.

Sheri: 21:31

I wonder whether there's a difference in those types of grief.

Lisa: 21:36

I think there is. You know, memories pop up about my dad. Then I feel sad because I know there won't be new memories, whereas with my childless grief it's that I'll never have any memories. There are no memories. Yeah, that does make sense.

Sheri: 21:55

So there's that piece. But then I also wonder what you think about like with my grief, I have found that the more that I feel it the way that you talked about like, say, going to the bathroom and allowing it to release the better.

Lisa: 22:10

I felt, yes, I agree, I feel the same way. Do you think?

Sheri: 22:14

that's possible with grieving your father.

Lisa: 22:18

No, not the same way. Do you know why? Yes, no, I'm lying. I'm lying, I do need to feel it, and it does give me a release, and then I can, you know, pull myself together. But I don't know how to describe it, and maybe it's because it's still fresh, right, like it's not been a long time since my dad passed.

Lisa: 22:39

I feel like it's sort of sitting there in my heart all the time right now and every now and then it kind of opens and cracks a little bit and then I like seal the crack a little bit, but I'm not sealing it all the way, whereas I feel like if I take a break to feel my feelings around my childlessness it's because that crack has opened a little bit. But I do find that when I release it that it seals and I'm okay then, whereas right now, where I am in this grief with my dad and again like it has not been long, I don't feel like that's sealed yet and that you know, again, we just spread his ashes like two weeks ago, so not even two weeks ago yet, so it's still really fresh. So I could say, you know, if you were to ask me again in six months, I could have a totally different answer for you.

Sheri: 23:27

Yeah, thanks for sharing. I wasn't expecting to talk so much about your dad.

Lisa: 23:32

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to no, I asked you about it. Yeah, it's just been an interesting comparison for me.

Sheri: 23:40

Yes, yeah, I could see that and my heart goes out to you because I do believe that grief can accumulate if it's not processed.

Lisa: 23:50

Oh 100%.

Sheri: 23:52

You know, it sort of piles up and until you go back and allow like process some of that you know, because we have grief throughout our lives and we're kind of taught to bury it or avoid it or distract ourselves from it. And I'll give you an example. I remember so I had three miscarriages and I had thought I was in a pretty good place. I wasn't feeling my grief a lot, I was feeling pretty good. And then I went on the very first podcast interview I ever did was on a podcast specifically for women who had miscarriages. It was to serve them and I started to tell my story, just like you did earlier, and I started to shake and I had never really told that story in what felt like a more public forum like that.

Sheri: 24:41

I had talked about it on, I don't know, YouTube and a few other things at the time, but I had such a small audience. I felt like I was talking to nobody here on this podcast. Suddenly I started to shake, Like I was like what is going on? I don't feel nervous, Like what is this shaking about? And I realized later that that was emotion that I had buried, that was coming up again. I think we can bury emotion and it stays down there somewhere.

Lisa: 25:10

Oh, I totally agree with you. I completely agree.

Sheri: 25:13

Like something could trigger it, like for me, or we need to kind of trigger it ourselves and take some action to sort of release it but if we don't do that, then it does start to pile up and then it feels worse, like then the next thing A hundred times worse.

Lisa: 25:30

It feels worse. Yeah, and then I find too. Then that's when we're starting to use sort of those more maladaptive ways of coping rather than more effective ways of coping, because it's so overwhelming, it takes over your entire life and your existence, it's true.

Sheri: 25:45

And then you, well, your body will make you stop and process or do something about it. That's a good segue to how you started coaching. So you're a coach and you have this interesting methodology that you also use in your job, I believe. Yeah, yeah, how did you make that connection? Oh, we'll tell us about it first and then, yeah.

Lisa: 26:11

So it's called dialectical behavior therapy and it teaches people to accept their thoughts, feelings and behaviors and then teaches the techniques to change how they're thinking, feeling and behaving so that they're managing more effectively. Ultimately, the program involves a lot of different skills and I won't get into them because there's a billion of them, but basically I became a trained facilitator at my current job. We offer a parent-teen skills group where we go through all the different modules and we teach them skills to manage the ineffective behaviors more effectively. Essentially, and while I was learning all of that stuff, I was also trying to navigate my newfound life of being childless and knowing that that was my future, and I used so many of the skills that I was learning alongside while I was teaching them that I found to be so helpful in managing my triggers, specifically even just sharing my story, coping how to talk to people about things that they may have said that hurt me in a way that didn't destroy our relationship, how to set boundaries again in a way that didn't destroy those relationships that were important to me, and how to do all of those things with some self-compassion. Mindfulness is a huge key component of DVT, so really teaching you to be in the present moment. So when we get stuck in our triggers and we're back in that moment, right, you were shaking, you were back there, you were having your miscarriage again. So it's about what do I need to do right now to get myself back where I am? So, just all different techniques to do that.

Lisa: 28:00

And the other idea that I love about dialectical behavior therapy is that two opposite things can be true at the same time. You can feel two opposite things. So your best friend announces that they're pregnant. As a childless woman, that is so conflicting because you are so happy for them and you just want to feel happy for them, and it's natural for us to feel sad for ourselves. And you can feel both of those things at the same time. But we don't give ourselves permission to do that. Yeah, that's a good point. So it's about giving ourselves permission to have those really two conflicting feelings and emotions at the same time. And then how to navigate that, how to cope with it in a way that you know. Yeah, so that's what brought me there was just how effective I found learning all of those skills and helping me get where I am today, and I still use them.

Sheri: 28:52

What prompted you to first start using them?

Lisa: 28:55

on yourself. I think I was able to relate to a lot of the different the emotions. Like you know, women that go through infertility they often come out of it with post-traumatic stress, right, like you know, significant depression and anxiety. These are things that I would recommend to my own clients and I was feeling those same things. I was like, well, if I'm going to tell them to do it and I'm not coping, then right. And part of this multifamily skills group is that we are kind of doing it together. Right, we begin and end every session with a mindfulness practice, so I had to do it. You know, I got to feel how that felt.

Lisa: 29:35

Or when I'm working one-on-one with a client and I'm doing some skills coaching with them to use the skill. We're doing the skill together, and so I just realized how much better I felt it just even in my ability to communicate with my husband. Men and women communicate so differently and you know he would say something to me that I would read completely wrong and take in my heart and I would just get all angry and he wouldn't have any idea what was going on. So then he'd become angry, right, even just being able to communicate more effectively with him about how I felt, not what you did, right, because it's how I felt. It's not something he did, so just really simple things like that that really helped to maintain the relationships that are important to us. And we don't want to continue for hurtful things to be said, like we had hurtful things said to us by loved ones, and it wasn't intentional, they just simply didn't understand. But you know they were said and so it just taught me how to better navigate those things.

Sheri: 30:37

So could we walk through an example of that, because I think that's such a common one, where someone a close it doesn't even matter it could be a stranger who says it could be a close family member, but I think it's particularly. It really stings the most, I think, when it's a family member or close friend or someone who says something to you and they don't mean it. Nobody ever means to hurt us, but they say something that does stings Like. Could you walk through an example and help to navigate?

Lisa: 31:10

that. Yeah, I think I can try. So I think I might use the example that you don't have kids, you don't understand.

Sheri: 31:17

That's a good one.

Lisa: 31:19

Yeah, if someone says that to me, you know you want to describe what's happening so you can say, when you say you don't understand, I don't have kids, I feel hurt and disregarded and demoralized to some degree, and I know that that's not your intention. I wonder if, instead of saying that, you might be able to tell me how you're feeling. You know, I wonder if you're feeling particularly frustrated with your kids today and can I support you with that and just sort of that wondering and saying what you need instead of what they've said. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work right, Like it's going to depend, but I find that I've left that situation where I've said what has happened that triggered me or upset me, what I would like to happen differently next time, and that the same time validated that clearly something's happening for you and I want to support you in a way that doesn't also hurt me.

Sheri: 32:21

That's so good, because I think you really hit upon the crux of that issue that particular conversation. I think when someone says that they usually have some sort of frustration or that they're frustrated, and so they're saying that because they're frustrated, it's about them. It's not even about you, because we will say that I've heard parents say that to their parents. My sister has said it to my mom and she's like Mom, you don't understand. My mom has raised three children and yet my sister is still saying it to her.

Sheri: 32:58

It's coming out of a place from them. Your recommended response, or one thing to try, is turning it back to them and saying tell me how you're feeling, Help me understand. That's really what it's all about. They just want to feel understood, just like we do Exactly.

Lisa: 33:20

That's just one example of something that I've learned. That's just helped me just not take things that are said so much to heart, not to say that it doesn't still sting. When I hear that it definitely still stings, I'm much more confident in saying ooh, yeah, ouch, this is how.

Lisa: 33:47

I feel You're right. People just want to be heard. We're not taught to say maybe it's. I'm sure that parents I know that my brother and my sister-in-law have shared with my husband and I that sometimes they really envy our lives. They envy our ability to just get up and go on a whim without any thinking they can't do that. They've got three kids. Sometimes I think it is envy and that's okay. You can envy us, just like we can envy you. Let's just be honest about it.

Sheri: 34:17

Yes, that's also such a good point. I just talked about this a couple of episodes ago. Yeah, that was kind of. My theory is that sometimes when parents say certain things like oh I know, it was on my episode where I was talking about you're so lucky you don't have kids, oh, I hate that word and that is, it can be really triggering for a lot of women. I was talking about how that statement, I think, sometimes does come from a place of envy.

Sheri: 34:51

Oh, yeah, and it's triggering for us because we envy them. So it's the same thing. We're both feeling the same thing for one another.

Sheri: 35:02

and yet we don't stop to try to understand that, because I do think there are times when, particularly if parents are in a moment of frustration or a moment when they would love to just get up and go out for dinner or go traveling or do whatever, it is more complicated, for sure, 100%. So they may be in a moment where they don't feel very lucky to have kids and they feel like we are lucky. So sometimes that just comes from a place of pure honesty.

Lisa: 35:35

It was a really validating conversation to have with them and we had it as couples and was a sign to me that they had heard me. They understood not understood, but as best they could, they understood our story and we always had a good relationship. And it got even better after that because there was just this sense, unspoken sense, that they understood where we're at and we understand where they can be sometimes too. And there's just this acceptance. Really, I know I said that a hundred times, but acceptance is childless people, I think we often feel unaccepted, misunderstood, pushed off, undervalued.

Lisa: 36:18

Yeah, all of those, all of the above, yeah, and so it was a really lovely moment, and it means a lot that they were able to be so honest.

Sheri: 36:28

Well, and what a beautiful opportunity that we all might have. It doesn't always go the way you and I have talked about, because some people they might not be able to go deep and try to understand what you're saying, but I think if they're a true friend they will try to, and it's such a beautiful opportunity to actually deepen your relationship, as you say. There was something you said earlier too that I want to just come back to. We're talking about relationships between women and their partner, and you talked about how men and women have such different ways of communicating and I wondered whether, in your experience, you've had. I don't know why this question came. Well, I do know why this question came to me. There's a lot of discussion about this right now. I wondered whether you had experience with any LGBTQ couples. Say to women, do they also experience the same communication challenges as, say, me and my husband do?

Lisa: 37:33

I think they do. I do have some friends and family and I did actually have some conversation with a woman in the same sex relationship and she was really struggling with her childless grief and her partner was not struggling with their childless grief. So I do think that there can be a lot of similarities and differences, because I think that the fact that women tend to feel so much bigger and can at times be a bit more sensitive, that can make it even more complicated, I would imagine, for a same sex couple. But I did get the sense I can't say for certain because I haven't come right out and asked that question but I did get that sense that certainly different and I want to learn more about this. But I wonder too if the woman that planned to do the carrying would.

Sheri: 38:29

Yeah, and not all. I mean. I know a same sex couple. They're men and one of them was really interested in adopting and the other wasn't, and we haven't gotten into this conversation at all.

Sheri: 38:42

But I would think that if there's one person in a relationship, it doesn't really matter whether it's two men, two women, man and woman whatever it is that if one wanted kids and the other was okay with not having them, that there may be some resentment or there may be some miscommunication or a feeling of not being supported because they're not experiencing the same thing. I expect that would happen. It doesn't matter Any couple.

Lisa: 39:13

I agree, it doesn't matter, certainly something to explore more with somebody who has more lived experience.

Sheri: 39:20

But yeah, I think that's an area that I want to delve into a little further, because I'm sure there are many.

Lisa: 39:27

Yeah, I would agree. I'll have to give you a heads up, because I would like to listen to that. Yes, sure, I listen to that.

Sheri: 39:34

Find someone to come on my podcast, gosh, I can't believe how the time flies sometimes on these episodes, so let's talk a little bit more. Going back to the DBT dialectical behavior therapy I just had one last, well, maybe a couple of last questions. Okay, can you give us a better sense of like, maybe pick one of those skills you said there's so many and you walked us through one example, but I'm just I'm wondering whether there's others or whether there are some tips that people could even just try at home on their own after this episode.

Lisa: 40:14

Yes, there's one called Copa Head. So it's about say you know that you're going to a family event and there is going to be someone has just announced their pregnancy or you just know that you're going to get triggered. It's without a doubt. You know you're going to be triggered, so you want to sit down and you want to think about how are you going to cope. What are the things that you need to do in order to manage that?

Lisa: 40:42

Some people really like their fidgety right, like they need to have something fidgety with them. A lot of people have like a grounding object, like a small stone, or maybe they wear something around their neck. You know, it doesn't have to be anything that's super obvious. But just coming up with a kind of list of things that you can do to sort of help you navigate and manage all of the different feelings that are going to they're going to come up for you you know they are and giving yourself permission to like take those breaks to that you and I talked about where if you need to have a little cry, then you do. But I found like that's so huge, just having an idea in your head. I find that I would go to those events and just feel a little bit more confident that I was going to get through it, no matter what happened, because I had thought about how I would manage.

Sheri: 41:30

Yeah, that's such a great one because we go to gosh like, go to the, going into a baby shower or even a wedding or a group of your friends who are all moms and you know there's going to be those moments when they're all talking about their kids. Like even just identifying what you think you might feel ahead of time, like I think what you mean is actually intentionally doing this exercise Very intentionally.

Sheri: 41:59

I think we all go into those scenarios with the feelings swirling around in our heads. We know we're going to be triggered, we know. But I think what you're saying is to be intentional about identifying those feelings and very intentional also being intentional about what things have helped you in the past to get through it. Is it the breaks? Is it bringing something that grounds you or maybe reminds you to take a breath, or whatever those things are. It's being intentional before you get there. I like the name of that too, Cope ahead.

Lisa: 42:37

Yeah, yeah, I do too, and you can use that in so many different ways, but, yeah, that was a big one, I think the other one is called riding the wave, and so it's more something that I think you would do on your own.

Lisa: 42:51

So, like I know, I remember it was a similar experience.

Lisa: 42:55

Well, somewhat it was just after not just after, I think it was even maybe a year after we had miscarried and we were watching something on TV that was part of the storyline was a miscarriage and I like felt myself holding my breath and was like sobbing, uncontrollably sobbing. And riding the wave is about sort of feeling it, so not stuffing it, you just you feel it, you identify it, you name it and you let it have whatever impact that it needs to have on you, and then you picture the wave it's going in and then it's going out, and so just like really simple, simple things like that not all the skills are, they're just such simple things, and I'll share one other one. It's called the five things. So using your five senses, so typically you would say, like, look around, five things I can see, four things I can hear, three things I can touch, two things I can smell and one thing you can taste, and just focusing on those things will help you get back into that present moment.

Sheri: 44:05

Oh, I like that one too. I can totally picture, how that would work.

Lisa: 44:10

Yeah, so it's just like really quick tips like that that you don't think of unless somebody walks you through them, that can really just help you navigate this roller coaster that we're all on and life is a roller coaster, right? Childlessness is just a different ride.

Sheri: 44:29

Well, and I think that's so common with so many of the different therapies and methodologies and tools that we have they're not just tools. I mean they're going to help you first get through your grief, but they're tools for life. They're going to help you down the road as well, or? Even just even now, in a different scenario.

Lisa: 44:54

Exactly so. Those are just a couple of different examples and things that I talked to my clients about, but again, it's what I did and it's what I have found to have been really instrumental in helping me get to a place where I can honestly say I'm content.

Sheri: 45:09

Yeah, that's amazing. Let's just recap those three just so we can remember. So the first one, it's okay, it's called.

Lisa: 45:18

Copahead, Right right. The second one is Riding the Wave and the third one is your five senses, Beautiful Five. Four, three, two, one.

Sheri: 45:28

Yes, Amazing. Okay, I think that's a great place to end like, leaving my listeners with three kind of solid tools to walk away with. Now you also have some more. So before we sign off here, you have a free gift for my listeners right, I do.

Lisa: 45:51

I have a resource with 10 tips for managing your triggers. Perfect. And how do they get that? So they can email me at familyredefinedwithlesacom or if they follow me on Instagram, it's also Family Redefined with Lisa. They send me a DM and just say resource and give me their email address and I'll send that off to them.

Sheri: 46:14

Perfect. So Family Redefined with Lisa. I'm going to link up your email and your Instagram account in the show notes and so, yeah, send you a DM with the word resource and they can get that resource. It sounds like a great. Based on the first three tips that you shared, that would be something that will be really helpful. Yeah, I hope so. Awesome. We've given them two places to find you. Anything else that I will link up in the show notes and anything else like any other Facebook page and all of that. We can link up other links in the show notes.

Lisa: 46:52

Yeah, I do have a Facebook page Perfect.

Sheri: 46:54

I don't think so.

Lisa: 46:55

Yeah, I think if you link those, that would be great.

Sheri: 46:58

We'll do All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me. This has been really enlightening. I love your tips. I'm actually going to pass those along and try them myself and it was a really fun conversation and we'll have to have you back again once you share some more of those tips.

Lisa: 47:19

Absolutely, I would love that, and then I'd love for the rest of the day in touch, because we're so close.

Sheri: 47:23

Yes, we're both from Canada.

Lisa: 47:25

I just shared that before, but we're what two hours?

Sheri: 47:28

away from each other.

Lisa: 47:29

I don't even think it's two hours, I think it's under an hour. Yeah, it's amazing.

Sheri: 47:34

So we're going to see each other again. Yes, we are. Thanks so much, Lisa. Thank you, Sherry.