Celebrating 100 episodes today! My husband, Mike Johnson, and I mark this special occasion together on the podcast with a conversation that makes its way through life without children from HIS perspective. As we share the narrative of our journey, from the heartbreak of miscarriage to the multitude of decisions along the fertility treatment path, we peel back the layers of our different perspectives.
Mike lends his voice to explore the complexities of a partner's role in facing childlessness, an area frequently overshadowed by the focus on women. We shed light on the decision-making process behind IVF and donor eggs and dissect the influences that his own previous life-altering events had on the anticipation of parenting.
This milestone episode doesn't just celebrate the podcast's growth; it honors the dance that happened while adapting our hopes for the future together.
Mike gets pretty vulnerable and open during our conversation with some questions that took him off guard. Join us for the raw and honest episode!
Where to find Sheri:
Instagram: @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca
If you want to create your best life in 2024, even without kids, download my free guide. You'll discover how to find purpose, joy and fulfillment and what might be standing in the way.
Click here for your free guide
Celebrating 100 episodes today! My husband, Mike Johnson, and I mark this special occasion together on the podcast with a conversation that makes its way through life without children from HIS perspective. As we share the narrative of our journey, from the heartbreak of miscarriage to the multitude of decisions along the fertility treatment path, we peel back the layers of our different perspectives.
Mike lends his voice to explore the complexities of a partner's role in facing childlessness, an area frequently overshadowed by the focus on women. We shed light on the decision-making process behind IVF and donor eggs and dissect the influences that his own previous life-altering events had on the anticipation of parenting.
This milestone episode doesn't just celebrate the podcast's growth; it honors the dance that happened while adapting our hopes for the future together.
Mike gets pretty vulnerable and open during our conversation with some questions that took him off guard. Join us for the raw and honest episode!
Where to find Sheri:
Instagram: @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca
If you want to create your best life in 2024, even without kids, download my free guide. You'll discover how to find purpose, joy and fulfillment and what might be standing in the way.
Click here for your free guide
We are celebrating my 100th episode today. I am super excited. If I think back to four years ago when I first hit record from a hotel room in Arizona I think it was while my husband and I were traveling I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't have a podcast editor. I didn't have. I hadn't ever recorded a podcast before. I really didn't know what I was doing. And now, four years later, I'm hitting my 100th episode and I never could have guessed.
Speaker 1:I've gone through a couple of name changes, a shift in my audience, and I am still absolutely loving it. I'm so grateful to you, my listeners, to my guests and to everyone who has contributed to the show. So, in honor of our 100th episode today, I have a really special guest who finally agreed to come on the podcast my very own husband, mike Johnson. What I really noticed after listening to our conversation again was the parallels that he draws between the loss of the use of his legs and the loss that we feel as childless women. His identity shifted from strong and growing athlete at age 16 to someone with a spinal cord injury who would never walk again. Our identity shifts from mother or want to be a mother or assume we're going to be a mother to someone who will never have children. He misses out on so many things on the playing field and in life, and in the same way that we feel as though we're missing out on so much of motherhood. Mike got pretty vulnerable with me in ways that I didn't even expect in this conversation, and I think you're gonna love it, but I don't wanna give away too much, so let's get on with it, shall we?
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Sherri Johnson and you are about to discover how to embrace your life as a childless woman who wanted to have a family and never could. This is where we combine mindset shifting tools with practical tips so you can break free of outdated societal norms that condition us all to believe that women without kids just don't measure up to the moms. It's where we take action on processing grief and accelerating the healing journey so you can feel free. When childless women awaken their self-worth, they transform from hopeless and inadequate to worthy, accepting and purposeful. Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of light bulb moments that will shift your perspective, as a childless woman, about yourself, about your any power to change yourself, your future and maybe from the world we live in, if that's what you want, then keep on listening.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to the Awakening Worth podcast. We are on the 100th episode and I am pretty excited about my guest today. Took me a hundred episodes to convince him to come on here. He is my very own husband and best friend. He's already rolling his eyes and shaking his head at me. He wouldn't let me tell him the questions I was gonna ask him, so he is going totally off the cuff and so I am ready to grill him. Are you ready, mike?
Speaker 2:Yeah, ready. First of all, congratulations. Thanks for having me on finally.
Speaker 1:Yes, so okay. So let's dive right in. Normally, what I start with with my guests most of them do not have kids, and most of my listeners if they've been following me for a bit already know my story, my side of the story. So I would love for you to tell your side of the story. How did you come to this? I'm sorry. How did you come to be on the path without kids?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, good question Now. Yeah, I feel like it would just be more. My answers would be more natural if they were just off the cuff and I didn't have any time to prepare. But I might regret that halfway through this show just if I can't come up with an answer. But you know what I guess the long and the short of it is that time goes quick.
Speaker 2:I was in university. Then I find myself in my 20s, having a great time and living in Toronto. We meet you Sorry, I meet you. We get together. You're a little bit older than me and I guess it took us a while to. By the time when we met, you were already 34, I was 27. And yeah, I definitely wasn't ready to have kids at 27, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:And by the time maybe I again, I don't, I don't know I just by the time maybe I was ready to have kids, it might have already been maybe getting a little late for us. So I guess I don't know. I mean, it's not anything I planned, of course. I guess when you grow up you always think that you just assume you'll end up in a family just much like the one that you're growing up in, with parents and siblings, and it just life takes in different pathways. You know I had a spinal cord injury, of course, and just I guess after that I had a lot of, you know, fears about being a parent, and so it never really was, you know, a top of priority for me. And you know, I guess maybe by the time I was ready, maybe, you know again, like I said, we were maybe a little bit too late, too late for it.
Speaker 1:Do you remember what you said to me, Like? I feel like it was pretty early on in, as we were dating and I asked you how many kids you wanted, or you asked me. I think you actually asked me and I told you I wanted two and then I said how many do you want?
Speaker 2:What I said is that there was a big number.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you said you wanted five.
Speaker 2:Well, of course, you know, because I come from a family of five kids, and I guess, maybe, yeah, you know, yeah, I guess, that's, you know, maybe me dreaming, I suppose, but when it came down to it, I just I don't know, you know, I just I guess, just time goes by and you know, you just it wasn't I don't know, I'm not sure, I'm not sure how I went from having a dream of having five kids to, you know, to not really ever prioritizing that at all, I guess. So, yeah, of course you know, I wanted to replicate my childhood, you know, and recreate that, and you know, it just never. You know my parents, they have five kids and they started at age 25. I was already, you know, and they ended at 37, you know. So we were already like, you know, if we're going to make five kids, you know we had already got in a late start, yeah, so that's funny that you remember that, because I guess that was probably always a dream, but just yeah, life happens and you know I didn't prioritize it.
Speaker 1:So what was it like for you as we were going through the infertility process? Can you talk about that as a partner to me? Going through three miscarriages, going through infertility treatments, what was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, at that time, you know I, I still at that point, you know I wasn't Super keen on starting a family. I know you wanted one, so I was really going through that because I wanted, you know, I wanted to fill that for you and of course, had it happened, it would have, I mean, I would have been great, would have been amazing. You know. I'm sure you know, had, you know we had a child, it, you know, I certainly would have gotten myself ready really quick. But going through that process, you know it's not, it's not ideal. Obviously, you know you want children to just, you know you want that process just to be organic, natural.
Speaker 2:Of course you know it's frustrating, especially, you know the miscarriage part was quite painful to watch. Of course, for me it what you know I, I just didn't, I didn't empathize enough, I didn't really Truly, you know, understand the pain that you are feeling because you know it was separated from my body. You know you're you're going through it was your body. You know that was Growing a life inside of you and that life was lost. You know, multiple times and it's you know quite. You know I can see the pain in your eyes and demeanor and so you know that was painful for me, but you know, actually, to be honest, I mean, maybe this sounds to the miscarriage itself, you know, I didn't feel a great sense of loss. To be honest is maybe that sounds terrible, but I just, you know it wasn't. I felt more pain, you know, because you were feeling the pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I can understand that. Like that's something that I've heard other partners say, like that they, you know it's not growing inside their body. I don't even like when I had my miscarriages I didn't even look any different, so there was no like connection for you To that baby yet.
Speaker 1:We have no sound like we didn't have. Like as far as you knew, like I might not have been pregnant at all, like it was there was no, like it was only me feeling that inside of my body. So I get that. I don't think that sounds harsh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I mean, and I did actually see evidence of the first miscarriage and that kind of Became real for me. I could see that there was a life and it was. You know it was stop short and so that you know that that told me a little bit. But again, you know the, the real connection you know was was between you know you, and the egg and embryo and so yeah, obviously you know my, you know it impacted me, your grief impacted me more than anything else.
Speaker 1:Because it was my grief, like watching me go through it, you mean is your grief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, you know, try to make light of it in order to cheer you up, and probably not the best approach, but I guess it's it's my, it's my way and you know it's what, I know, it's what I tried. So yeah, it was your grief was. For me was the most painful part.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the day that we decided not to move forward with IVF and a donor that so the the option that was presented to us was donor egg. I have yet with the donor egg.
Speaker 2:Remember that conversation yeah, I so yeah, there was the way I remember it was. There was there's a couple options actually you could. There was, it seemed like there was almost tears To the donor egg. You know you are guaranteed a pregnancy. You know that was kind of the gold level tier, and then there was, you know that came at a certain price. And then there's a different, lower tier where you know it's a little bit less expensive, not necessarily guaranteed, you know, pregnancy. So yeah, I remember those options being presented to us. I don't remember the actual moment. We decided not to move forward with it, though.
Speaker 1:I remember it because it was sort of what shifted me. Do you want to know what you said?
Speaker 2:Did I have anything to do with the car? No, please go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, you. You said I feel like A child would just be a reminder of what I can't do.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, you know, yeah, through my card a little bit, I'm just gonna suck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's. Can you collect yourself? And I'll explain a little bit. So you mentioned earlier that you have a spot on card injury and so you have, and you've experienced grief in a lot of other ways before we got to this grief. Do you think that that had an impact on how you felt about this?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Are you okay?
Speaker 2:You did, I should. I got those questions before. No, I? Um, there's two sides of the coin. I guess you could stay. So you know, having a spinal cord injury, I am in a position where I'm never, you know, I'm never gonna walk again, never gonna do Any other things.
Speaker 2:I thought I was gonna do I'm never gonna ski or you know, whatever it is. So, having a, having offspring, having children, you know, I always thought, when I finally, you know, came to terms with the fact that I wasn't gonna walk again kids, I thought would be a way that, you know, I could live, I carelessly through them, I could, you know, watch my kids grow up and do all the things that I wasn't yeah so watching so that would be, you know, ultimately, watching my kids Physically grow up and, you know, physically flourish, would be a way for me to, you know, to live through them and experience, you know, experience, those experiences that I never got to myself.
Speaker 2:So that was, you know, kind of what I was. So you know what I was hoping for. You know, planning on, I guess, you know, but if a few experiences, you know, just watching parents, you know, knowing what's involved, it would be, you know, it would be very painful for me to be a parent as well, just knowing that I wouldn't be able to, to do some of the a lot of the things that I had, you know, envision myself doing, you know, playing catch with your kid, you know, of course, that's what's more than that, essential, yeah, I mean, it's, it's more than that. That's just the, you know, like you say, the quintessential example, but it's, it's everything. You know, it's a.
Speaker 2:I was at a we're at a barbecue together with one of my, you know, one of our friends and I what am I friends? Kids on a swing tangled up in the, you know, in the chain link, and you could tell he was, you know, and a lot of pain, you know is pinching his leg or something. It was stuck there and you know you didn't scream, you didn't want to be embarrassed. And you know my friends, you know his father, some, you know, rushed over there, you know just kind of, you know just greatly and you know quickly got out of the situation. I just thought to myself you know what, if that was my kid, you know I wouldn't necessarily be able to go over and Help them and that would really kind of eat me up inside, you know, not to be there for your kids. Kids are small, you know, and they don't often understand and I would be worried that they were. I would worry that, you know, they would maybe resent me to a certain degree.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you've ever gotten into that much detail with me before.
Speaker 2:No, and I guess the other example that kind of sticks out for me was when we took our knees, gracie camping, and you know, during the one morning I took her over to the playground, to the monkey bars there's another little girl with her dad and you know, the dad was kind of lifting her up and putting her on the top bar and you know, doing all this stuff up there, and I'm just like good boy, gracie, you know, like I'm not really able to, and again, you know, just reminds, you know, just kind of made me think that, yeah, these types of situations would present themselves on a daily basis and they would be painful, so it would require, you know, work on my part, just to, you know, to be fine with that.
Speaker 2:And you know I just, yeah, it would be painful, you know it would be, you know, joyful at the same time, yeah, you know. So again, those things, you know, did you know, did weigh on me and they, you know, they did maybe scare me off, you know, to be honest. So that's like that's what I say, during that time when we were trying to have to make babies, you know, I was really doing it to, you know, because I know that you wanted it so much.
Speaker 1:What do you think? So I have some other questions. So what can you talk about? What your thoughts were on adoption and fostering, because that was another conversation that I think a lot of my listeners have that conversation with their partner and it not every like. Both partners are not always on the same page and I started to explore it. I wasn't even sure if I was 100% in on that, so I started exploring it. Do you remember what your thoughts were on it and our conversations around that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know, initially I would have said I, you know, I don't really have any sort of drive or any sort of ambition to raise, you know, someone else's kid. I guess you know I would just, I guess, you know, you don't even think about that at first. You know, when you're growing up, you don't, you don't. I mean, maybe some people do. I never did you know, and I guess I wasn't, you know, I think maybe what I would have said was I'm not keen on what are the words I want to say, like I, it wasn't on my radar, it wasn't, I wasn't really motivated to be, you know, to raise an adopted. I wasn't really motivated to adopt a child. I was, you know, I know there's. You hear stories about how difficult they can be and just the dynamics are a bit of a challenge, you know, and that's what I felt at the time, you know. But since you know, since then I think I've changed my tune a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think adoption is a is a great thing. You know lots of people who have the ability to have kids and they have kids also adopt one or two, you know, or however you know. So it's just based on their own experience, that's a decision they make early on and I think that's great. I think lots of people who you know can can give children a great life. You know, if you have that love to give and that, that urge to father or mother a child, then I think adoption is wonderful. I mean, did you know? I think the bond you can create with a you know, with you know someone you raise, no matter at what age you, you know, you adopt them at, I think that can be a really unbreakable bond. So you know, at the time I wasn't too keen on it, but you know, if I don't know, if, if we were to rewind a little bit, maybe, maybe my knowing what I know now or feeling what I know now, you know, I might have approached it a little bit different yeah, and I think it's different.
Speaker 1:I do think it's different when you have, when you adopt an infant versus older kids. Like, older kids can sometimes come from other families, the fostering system, from their biological family. There can be all kinds of challenges that they come with, for I mean, you can also get that within infant as well, but I think there is a difference when they've already lived a part of their life and I think that's being realistic, that there's that can come with challenges if you adopt older children.
Speaker 2:Yeah, come with great challenges. You know people. You know people without kids. You know they've a pretty, you know that they they have careers. You know they have the ability to travel, they have. You know not everyone a bit. I mean. You know if, if you make a certain amount of money and you know you have certain freedoms, you know you can have a pretty great life. And if you throw an adopted child into the mix, that comes with any sort of problems and yeah, that can, that can disrupt things quite, quite easily. And then I'm sure the parents ask themselves well, geez, you know why did we do this? And you know maybe the bond isn't quite there. You know it hasn't been built strong enough after only a couple of years and yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm sure the dynamic can be quite it quite nasty, and so it is risky. You know, unless you're quite, you know, heavily committed to sticking with it, you know it can create a lot of problems. I'm sure I don't know what the stats are on adopted kids. You know who who are returned to wherever they, you know, or return, you know, on their own accord, but I'm sure it's, it's, I'm sure it's higher than zero.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I think it's actually higher than a lot of people realize, like for whatever reason. I mean we know people within our own circle who adopted children and then they went back into the system and I've heard many stories from my clients from the childless space. That happens more often than you think. I think it's a real misconception out there that adoption is just just adopt. Why don't you just adopt, just go ahead and do that like it's so easy and there's a lot of tough parts of it and it can end in heartbreak if, for whatever reason, those children are taken back or the biological parents want them back or it's too much of a strain on your marriage or your mental health, or I think that can happen too. You got to have a pretty strong marriage to do it as well and be sort of all in both All in and on the same page.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if one of you isn't 100% in, then that can turn into resentment, and all of that as well. It can also turn into resentment if you don't do it. If one person really really wants it and then the other person doesn't, that can turn into resentment. But I don't feel like we had that, do you?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I don't think either of us had a real strong urge to adopt. I mean, maybe we chatted about it briefly, but yeah, I don't think. Yeah, I think we're pretty much on the same page in that respect.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, what do you think is the hardest part for you as a man? Getting through life without kids?
Speaker 2:I don't, I guess I don't know, I don't really categorize myself as someone who doesn't have kids. I don't, you know, this is all I've ever known. I'm motivated by my career and just you know, by, you know, just living life, I guess you know. You know making plans to travel. Just you know, we've just sold our house, excited about, you know, doing different things. And I guess I don't, I wouldn't say there's anything really hard about it at all. Yeah, I just, I don't, I don't view it that way, you know, I'm just, I'm just, I guess I'm just what. What am I? I guess I'm, I guess I'm a man, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm not a childless man. I'm just, you know, I'm just, I'm just, I don't. I don't view it that way. I don't think it's hard, you know, I guess, maybe, maybe when we're, I do think about, you know, when we're old, you know I look at my parents and they, you know they have their kids coming to visit and you know I think that's they love it.
Speaker 2:Obviously. You know how much your parents, you know, love my parents and your parents, you know. You know how much parents in general, you know, love to hear and you know, visit with their, their kids, and so we won't have that which is, I guess, I don't know it's, I've never experienced it, so it's not, you know, not missing it, I guess. But I guess we'll have to see what it's like when we're older and we don't have any kids coming to visit us. I do see my parents, and especially your mom, how crazy they go over grandkids and that's, you know, that's something we won't experience either. But not everybody experiences everything, you know. So I can honestly say it doesn't. You know, I'm not, I don't feel like it's hard at all. I don't think there's any hard part.
Speaker 1:So you just said something that was kind of interesting that I'm wondering if you can sort of draw a parallel. You said not everyone gets to experience everything, and that's so true, like there's lots of things that I won't experience, that are completely outside of kids, and there's things that other that parents won't experience. So there's, you know, there's lots of things, but I was also thinking about you. You know, because of your injury, there's lots of things that you won't experience. So do you think that? Do you think that that had anything to do with you being able to accept this more easily?
Speaker 2:Maybe. Yeah, you deal with an injury is catastrophic. As a spinal cord injury. You certainly develop some coping mechanisms and if I can deal with a spinal cord injury at the age of 16, you know being a athletic sports where everything if it being athletic kids, you know who was good at sports and you know having that all taken away in a blink of an eye and having to go back to school in a wheelchair every day for the rest of my life. If I can wrap my head around that and, and you know, make a positive out of it and do good things and still have a smile on my face, then, yeah, I can. I can certainly handle, you know, not not having children.
Speaker 2:Lots of people that don't have spinal cord injuries also, you know, have children and you know, I think it's generally easier for men. I think it's in women's DNA a little bit more that do that mothering instinct. You know, and I think men in eight lead, you know, like from a animalistic point of view. I don't know if I want to go down that route, but you know they like to. Yeah, I mean, it's in our DNA to want to procreate and, you know, live forever, so to speak. Not necessarily father. You're not necessarily be a father but you know to procreate I think is kind of built into us. But you know lots of guys have that father. You know definitely want to be a father and but yeah, I know. Back to the original question, yeah, I think, certainly, dealing with a small injury, I've got certain coping mechanisms and yeah, I'm sure I could turn the page on not having kids a little bit easier maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure you would build up some resilience to suffering, to pain, to. You could also build up, you know, the ability to bury that sort of stuff pretty easily.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and that's kind of what I've. That is a. That's a great coping mechanism, actually just burying it until it starts to come out. You know, when you are taking off guard on a podcast with the question you didn't expect that's when it comes out. But yeah, you know, I don't know, I I don't.
Speaker 2:It's not like anything was taken away from me. You know, as you don't have, I've never been a father and so that was never. I was never been a father. It was never taken away from me. So it's not as though I'm coping with it, it's just. It's just an experience that I didn't have. You know, you can look around, you can back and tell you like, when I look around and see people with young kids anywhere, I'm not envious whatsoever. You know, on a subway, in a groceries, anywhere at it, I'm not envious. You know, I do see, like I remember being in when we were like in our late teens and then in our 20s, going away to college. That was a really great time. You know, coming back home and know your adults and you know your parents' adults and you know you can have drinks with them and you know that's certainly something I would like to experience, yeah, all the years leading up to that.
Speaker 2:You know all the 20 years, 20 years, sure there's a lot of good times in there as well. But just, you know, I'm just saying I don't, I'm not envious, you know I don't, I don't have envy and I don't have. You know, I'm not bitter about it at all, really, you know. So, you know, it is what it is and yeah, I'm just. That's just the path that I guess you ultimately do choose your path, and this is the path I've chosen and I'm I don't, you know, I don't look back with a lot of regret.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, speaking of envy, I remember you and I were standing in the airport I forget it was a recent trip and there was this couple with at least who maybe they even had three kids in front of us and trying to work out the luggage and the kids and the the baby, like the car seat, and the, and you and I just looked at each other and went, oh I'm, I'm glad we're not doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's it. Yeah it's tough, I mean, but if they're your kids and then you go through that, you know you just don't. We look at it and think, man, I would never want to do that, that's. That looks just such so frustrating and just like crazy. But yeah, if they're your kids, I don't think you think twice about it, I think you just plow through it. You do it because you love them and they're a piece of you and yeah yeah, um, are there things?
Speaker 1:so I know the answer to this, but I'm not sure what you'll say. What triggers you or makes you angry that parents do or say around like their kids, when you know, when we're out with parents or we're around them, like, what are the things that they do or say that sort of get under your skin?
Speaker 2:I, yeah, listen. People who don't have kids aren't alone in this. People who have kids also hate listening to other people talk about their kids. Nobody cares like nobody, nobody cares. I care to a certain amount, to a certain degree, rather. You know I'm interested in your kids to a certain degree, but you know when, when you're, when, when parents boast about their, their kids, it's just like. You know there's. There's no worse conversation to be in. You know you got to agree and and you know parents are quite proud of their kids. My parents were never like that. You know, they never. They never bragged to their friends or anybody and my mom, you know, and so I kind of See them as as an example, and my mom would always say, like, don't you have anything better to talk about? You know you're just gonna gab on about your kids, you know the whole time. So it's just, yeah, it's just. It's just. It's just a painful conversation to be and to be on the receiving end of Of all the great things that this this person's kid has achieved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think your mom is a bit of an anomaly Because she's at the like far end of that spectrum where she's like sure she talks about you guys, but really only when only when she's asked, or yeah, like she, she certainly doesn't boast or gloat about you guys.
Speaker 2:Or the don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know the people that I like and you know I generally genuinely like, and you know I do like to hear about their kids I am, you know, you can see in their face that it brings them joy, and you know, but it there's got to be a cutoff. At some point it becomes a little bit delirious. Generally, people who are like that aren't Aren't, aren't really in my circle of people. I would consider that, like you know, really good friends. Most, most of most, of the Friends I have don't, you know, I think, have more sense than that. But yeah, so so I am interested to a certain degree, you know, but yeah, like I said, at some point it just gets a little bit too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's probably a pretty common sentiment in our world, like it can go on a bit too long.
Speaker 2:Parents can sometimes Listen and we're not it's also parents who don't like to hear about other kids. Right, it's not just people who don't have kids, it's other parents don't like it either. It's a, it's a. It's funny. I remember One of my employees she's from another country, she's like and she said to me she's like you know what? Canadian mothers really talk a lot about their kids. I said, really, are you sure it's not just mothers in general? You know, I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a Canadian thing. I think it's a worldwide fun. It's a human.
Speaker 1:It's a human thing really and and when she said that she.
Speaker 2:She didn't, to be honest, she, and usually she'll put up a fight, but I think she kind of saw the, the. I think she kind of, you know, agreed with me, to us, you know, I think she agreed with me. Ultimately she didn't really argue too much about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. Ultimately, I think that that is a self-worth thing. The the people who talk about their kids are somehow finding value through that, like if they can show you how wonderful their kids are, that Says something about them. So they're using their kids as a measuring stick of their own worth, like they've. They've placed their worth in, they've linked it to their kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, maybe, sure, I would agree with that. I'm just thinking about that, yeah, because, well, listen, I mean, if you take the kid or the equation and you've got somebody who is boasting about themselves and often that's a sign of lack of self-worth as well and they're building themselves up when really underneath they don't you know, they feel lack of sense of worth, I guess. And so, yeah, somebody with a, you put the kid in the equation and you just sub that kid in the same type of behavior, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whether it's somebody talking about their kid and telling you how great their kid is, or telling you how much you know how great their car and their house and their you know their money is, or you know whatever it is that they're tying worth to is what they're going to talk about Sure. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. So what would you say to other men or partners about how they can support their partner through someone who's having a hard time accepting it and sort of finding their best life without their kids?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess, if you grew up, you know, always with the longing and, you know, expectation, I guess, that you were going to be a parent and then it didn't happen, yeah, that's going to be, you know, it's going to be disappointing, for sure. And then you look around and we live in a world that is, you know, we all come from families. You know we all, everyone, comes from, we were all born into this world. You know whether or not we had, you know, a loving family around us or not, you know we, you know we all come from mothers and so, yeah, if you wanted, if that's, you know, was your aim all growing up, it's, it's difficult to accept, I suppose, for sure.
Speaker 2:But I guess you got to find what makes yourself happy. I mean, you got to find another purpose. You know you can't look around and compare yourself to others and you know, look at what the and this goes for anything really, not just not fulfilling your dream of being a parent. You know you got to look and you can't compare yourself to others. You got to. It all sounds cliche, but it's true. I mean, you know, for me, dealing with a spinal cord injury, it's, it's, everything is about gratitude. You need to be grateful for what you have. And do you know you chances are you have a lot more than than than most of the people in the world. So you got to recognize that and just don't dwell on you can't dwell on what you don't have. It's, it's a losing game and you're going to compare yourself to others and say life should have been this way or should have been that way Again. That's, that's a losing mentality as well, and you're not going to do yourself any favors or anybody around you any favors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would agree with that and yeah, I would say that you had firsthand experience with that already, growing up with a, or growing up beyond 16 with a spinal cord injury, and that, just, it does apply to all parts, like many parts of life. So last question for you what do you love about your life with Oak kids?
Speaker 2:Well, besides living with me, yeah, living with you number one, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Spending that life with me, you know, again, like that question should just be asked what, what do you love about your life? Like, again, I don't, I don't look at it as living my life without kids, I just look at it as living my life. You know, right now, like I said, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky that I, you know, I, I get to run a company and I feel very lucky that I get to do that and it motivates me. I, like, I love, you know.
Speaker 2:So, when I had the spinal cord injury, I lost, you know, I lost a lot of freedom. I'm, I'm not, you know, I am not free to move about in the public as many people are. So you know the sense of freedom I get with both my, you know both my career and my life, I guess you could say, without kids. You know there's a sense of freedom that goes along with that. So, yeah, you know, and you know I do want a sense of not knowing what's going to happen, you know, exactly in the future. And you know, I think we have that to a certain degree.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, A sense of not knowing.
Speaker 2:I don't want to wake up every day knowing exactly what's going to happen. I don't want to, you know, live, live year to year, knowing exactly what's going to happen. So you know, we made a decision, on a whim, to sell our house. We've done that, you know. We don't know where we're going to go next, so that you know that's.
Speaker 1:Which makes me nervous, yeah, but you know are we making the right decision?
Speaker 2:Who knows We'll? We'll make it the right decision one way or the other. So you know, and had we had kids, we would certainly probably not have made a decision like that.
Speaker 1:No, true, we would have to think about where are they going to go to school and we need to make sure we have a place for them to live and all the things, yeah, finances. Everything, yeah, and that's a totally different kind of freedom, like you said. Well, thank you.
Speaker 2:All right, well, thank you, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1:That's good. This is a long time coming. I am so glad that you had this conversation with me, and maybe we'll do it again sometime. Maybe, and we'll do a little more digging.
Speaker 2:Deal, deal, all right, all right, thanks so much. Congratulations on number 100.
Speaker 1:It is a wrap on episode number 100, my conversation with my husband. We went in some directions that I did not expect to go and as I listened again, some of that emotion started to come up again. For me, if you found some value in this episode, as either the woman who has a partner I hope you were able to find some value in this or maybe you're the partner trying to support your own partner, spouse. Whatever that might be. Hopefully this was valuable for you and if it was, I would absolutely love it if you would celebrate with me by leaving a review wherever it is that you're listening, rate it, review it, subscribe, follow whatever the option is that's for you there. I would be so forever grateful and come back next week for episode number 101 as we start on, hopefully, another 100 episodes. See you then.