Efficiency on the Road: The Future of Trucking with Chang Robotics

Revolutionizing Trucking with Automation and Hybrid Technology | Featuring Matt Chang

In this episode of the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast, host interviews Matt Chang, a robotic engineer and founder of Chang Robotics. 

They discuss innovative tech solutions for the trucking industry, including automated freight corridors, hybrid trucking, and warehouse automation. Chang shares insights on current projects, such as the automated freight corridor in Texas, which aims to reduce congestion and idle time for truckers while improving efficiency. 

They also explore the implications of hybrid electric powertrains for commercial trucks, highlighting potential environmental and economic benefits. Tune in to learn how these advancements could transform the trucking industry and improve the lives of truck drivers.

Our Guest
Matthew Chang
Chang Robotics
https://www.changrobotics.ai

00:00 Introduction to High-Tech Solutions in Trucking
00:30 Meet Matthew Chang: Robotics Engineer
01:26 Challenges of Automated Trucking
02:24 Innovative Automated Freight Corridor
06:13 Approval and Implementation of the Project
16:53 Hybrid and Electric Trucking Solutions
30:04 Automating Warehouses and Supply Chains
32:54 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Your Hosts:
John Farquhar
National Risk Services Specialist, Transportation, Gallager GGB
https://www.ajg.com/ca/
M: 437-341-0932
John_Farquhar@ajg.com

Chris Harris
CEO, Safety Dawg Inc.
905 973 7056
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
https://safetydawg.com/

Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast

Do you need a "Truck Driver Safety Policy?" Get it today! https://safetydawg.com/policy

Transcript

0:00

There's some pretty cool high tech solutions coming. To help trucking in the very near future This week, I'm really excited. This week, uh, Matthew Chang from Chang Robotics is coming on the show and he's discussing some of the solutions that they are currently actually creating and implementing. Join us this week on the Trucking Risk and Insurance podcast. Welcome to the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Matt, welcome to the show. Can you take a second and introduce yourself to the viewers and listeners? Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Uh, I'm Matt Chang. I'm a, a robotic engineer. Um, I've been operating a robotic design firm that I started seven, uh, eight years ago now, and we have a bunch of different applications we've done from public transit. Uh, we're now into freight, but our bread and butter is really manufacturing and e-commerce. And so we, I. Totally understand how goods move around the country. We understand how manufacturers receive their goods, you know, create finished goods and get 'em shipped out. And we understand the other links in the supply chain, like three pl, eCommerce and Last Mile. And you've been doing a lot of work, uh, on the Mexican border. I understand. Looking at, if I remember you were looking at congestion. Yep. It's, it's the idea of a potentially automated corridor. So when we think about automated freight, there are companies that are saying, Hey, we're gonna automate trucking. We're gonna pull the driver out, and we're just gonna drive trucks around the nation. Autonomously. That's not what we are working on. It's not what we're talking about. And quite frankly, if that were to happen, I think it's a very long way away. Uh, truck drivers know the challenges with that, right? Things change, road conditions change. Weather can be a bear at certain times in the country. And then simple things like who's gonna, who's gonna lock the trailer and who's gonna open the doors? You know, there's functional things where it's like, we still need the human. So I'm not sure it makes sense to try to automate something that still needs a human. Personally. I think the, um. The cause of the truckers is very noble. They keep America running. You know, here in Florida where I live, we don't have gas pipelines, so that means we have to truck out our goods like orange juice, and then we have to truck in our fuel so that everybody in the car could, in the state can drive. Um, so lemme get back to this corridor idea. Automated freight corridor, what we want to address is the pain points for all the stakeholders. So starting with the truckers, one of the number one problems with picking up freight in a heavy corridor is driving through urban environments, right? You spend a lot of time waiting. Um, one of our first design projects is the Port of Houston. Uh, that's a downtown port. I. So the truck driver is gonna experience traffic as they're going in to pick up a load. They're gonna have delays at the gate as they wait to get registered, and then they're gonna have idle time. And the general compensation model for truckers, as your audience knows, is you get paid by the mile. We're not driving any miles yet, and we've burned quite a few hours just to get a load and we gotta get back out of the downtown. So that's not very productive. What we want to do is create a series of automated inland ports that are connected to our existing freight assets like border crossings or seaport. We want to get that freight up and out of the urban core, but we wanna let the truck driver essentially do a drive through to pick up a load. To get on their way. So if we can move that freight pickup point out of the urban core, then it takes a lot of hours off of their transit time and they're only getting paid to drive. They're only driving miles. Yeah. And which truck drivers would love that?'cause the ones I talk to, most of them, they love driving. And that's one of the reasons they're a truck driver. They hate all the pain points that you highlighted about congestion and lineups and waiting for loads and all that kind of stuff. So are you proposing to move, uh, the freight out of that seaport or are you thinking about moving the location of the actual seaport? How would you fix it? Yeah. I don't, it's outta my scope to move to seaport. I don't think we're doing that and probably out of our careers, we'll both be retired, but before that could happen. Now we're going to have an automated train system that takes the freight from the long shoremen. They'll, they'll be the handoff point. So the long shoremen are not disrupted here. It's actually great for them'cause they get paid on throughput. They have a bonus and performance comp based on how many containers they move. So we're gonna get that freight from the long shoremen. Up onto an automated train rail, get that transported out of the city core and then deposit it at an automated freight handling facility that can handle trailer loads and container loads. It'll be mixed that way. When the truck driver comes through to the automated facility, they're totally tech enabled. Their smartphone is telling them when to arrive. It's predicting their arrival based, based on their location. It's using the automation to queue the freight. Then it's assigning them a lane as they come in. So they drive in. You get assigned to lane eight, you pull to the designated parking location and the system will load your trailer for you. The driver gets out and does a visual inspection, right? We have to be safe above all else. So they do a visual inspection to confirm that the load was received properly, and then they hop in the truck and they go. Everything else is paperless. There is no other transaction. It was digitally recorded. You know, and we're gonna use blockchain technology for that to create that ledger. And I think it also creates a, a safer environment for truckers because they have certainty of what's on the load. Before the freight came in, it was scanned. Those specs on the scanning are being set by Department of Homeland Security, border Patrol. DEA and the other stakeholders from the feds that are interested in this. So we can just use technology to scan the freight before they get it, to make sure that there is no human trafficking, that there is no illegal narcotics, and very important today that there's also no tariff dodging, right? So that everything is done fully compliant. The truck driver has nothing to worry about, and they were certified with their load before they pulled out. Yeah, I mean, that sounds one futuristic. Um. But wonderful. Uh, has this been actually approved yet, and if so, what would the, how many years would it take to complete? Excellent question. It is mostly approved, so the governor has signed on in Texas. Oh, good. The elected representatives of Texas have signed on and are championing this. That's why it's getting Spotlight and the Port of Houston and the Port of Laredo, Texas, the inland port. Have both have all approved this. There is one final approval and we're just on pins and needles waiting for this to happen. It's something in my career I've never experienced before. It's called a presidential permit, so you can imagine who the final signature is. So the status, as of the recording of this video, it's sitting on the desk of Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. He has a few weeks left to finish his review and then he has to refer it to the president, who then has two months. To review and approve. So we're kind of at the closing innings here of getting this pushed through. All the work has been done with Texas DOT, the Texas Transportation Institute, and for the, the transnational freight, the Mexican side has already approved the project, so this would be a huge upgrade. And then specifically for truck drivers, also want to address a key point for, for, uh, freight that crosses the border, which is typically in a trailer load. Um, right now the Mexican truck drivers have an exemption. They can carry that load to the point of drop off, and I don't think that the Mexican truck drivers both through training or equipment are equally as certified as American CDL truck drivers. I don't. And so we're not operating on a level playing field here in wages or in equipment or safety training. So this eliminates Mexican truck drivers from crossing the border. The freight comes over by itself and gets loaded onto an American truck by an American truck driver. So those, taking it from Mexico border all the way to Maine would be the job of an American truck driver. And I would predict for your audience, those are good hauls to get. I would think so. And, and some of them.'cause you're talking to a Canadian, some of them might even cross the northern border. Absolutely. You know? Yeah. Hopefully you think, uh, Canadian truck drivers are properly trained? I'm certain they are. I I. But just so for your audience, I do buy advanced robotics from Canada in multiple different categories of industrial automation. And there's a reason we buy from Canada. The equipment sold from there is the best in the world. So I'm certain that your truck drivers are at the same level of, of skill and and safety that American truck drivers are. Well, and as a little aside, be, there is now mandatory entry level truck driver training in the states, but believe it or not, Ontario, the province from Canada, they were the first to introduce entry level training for CDL holders, uh, in North America. That's great. My favorite robot company in the world is based in Waterloo. So we love Ontario. Uh, I've been there many times. I always look forward to a trip. So fantastic. It's, uh, about 40 minutes away from where I'm sitting, uh, Waterloo. And yes, Waterloo has a lot of computer. I would say geniuses. That's probably why I'm 40 minutes away because I come nowhere close to those. They pushed you out, huh? Yeah. So, uh, for the audience, uh, this area of Ontario that's nearby Toronto. Waterloo is, is kind of the Silicon Valley of Canada. Yeah. And so, yeah, a lot of famous companies, I think Shopify is headquartered there, so you have a lot of tech in that corridor, and the talent pool is very rich. Just about everybody walking on the street is, is highly educated and very capable with a computer. Well, I think the largest company that came outta there was probably, uh, rim, uh, known one as Blackberry probably. Um, but, and they've changed, they're still around, but they're no longer a. A cell phone provider, I believe. Right. However you were mentioning as well. So you've got this high tech thing, and I would imagine the, the government or the, uh, president. Should be anxious to sign off on it. Since you've got everybody else's approval and the stakeholders like the governor, this project will have an immediate impact to those people. It's gonna have a minor impact, I would think, to the president of the United States, so I would hope they would sign off fairly quickly and let this project get underway. Yeah, and let me make sure I give a shout out. So we we're the engineering company. That's what we do. We design things, um, especially around technology and automation. And, um, spent his career automating oil and gas industry so he knows what it means to automate in a high stakes environment where safety is paramount. And then he is joined by his chief Technology, o Officer, Tyler Hague. Uh, Tyler's also Canadian. I. So this is a good US Canada collaboration and how we can bring this technology to the world. Uh, hopefully after they finish it down there, they can bring some of it back home because we've got our own bottlenecks up here. Yeah, I think Vancouver would be right. Vancouver and I, I gotta thank Halifax as well. But, uh, certainly those Vancouver and Halifax are the two major ports, uh, here in Canada. I know Halifax is a deep water port. I'm not sure about Vancouver. Excellent. Yeah, so the, so we're excited about what this means. Um, we see it as an export technology is the way we're looking at it. So yeah, we need to pilot this and, and do it in a. But once it's proven and understood, once the benefits are fully recognized, I think this is an export technology, Europe, the Middle East, uh, all the major ports of Asia are gonna want similar systems. You ask a question on how long it takes due to the infrastructure requirement with actually building a train bridge from a port to an inland port. Uh, the total timeline per project is five years, right? So it's one of those things, if we want this to be part of our future, we need to start now. And like any technology. It's gonna be refined over time. So we also want to go ahead and get a few underway so that we get those critical learnings in. It's, it's not a small feat to autonomously pick and place a container or trailer load, so as that technology gets perfected. Yeah, no, this is exciting. And I don't think, in my mind, five years is a long time, you know, to complete the project. Now, how long ago did you start on this? I. Project or, um, the other companies start on it. How many years has, yeah, so Green, green Corridors has been at this for a while. Whenever you're on public infrastructure, you know, understanding the policy, uh, right away, safety, stakeholder engagement that is, is very challenging. Uh, and it is time consuming. So it's about getting people aligned. They've done that work now, so they brought us on. As, uh, as a partner for the automation and the technology. Um, around last, last October or November is when we got started. So we've now got five or six months under our belt, uh, really deeply understanding the tech. And that means that we're green corridors and by extension us we're getting close to build, right? That means we're about to start building the robotic systems and the vision systems, the scanning systems that are required to make this happen. Uh, so it is not an overnight thing, it's a first of a kind system. So that means we do need a little time to r and d and get it right. We also need to work the supply chain pretty heavily because we can't break the bank on this. These projects have to be affordable with a payback, and we're gonna still need to work through the workforce. So we need to, we need to really, before we finalize design, we need to engage with truckers and, and really understand what truckers want and how we can be trucker friendly. And I already mentioned the longshoremen. We need to engage with them to make sure that they see the full value that this has been done in accordance with. And then also their, their payments, right? We want wages to go up for everybody. So I think if we can get the workforce on board by helping them understand this makes your job easier, uh, it's gonna help you be more efficient and you get paid more. Then that, that's kind of a winning formula to get everybody on board, I would think. And from a trucking point of view, you're gonna save truck drivers hours of wasted time and space. Plus it's gotta have a, an impact on the environment. Uh, all those trucks not going to downtown at slow rates and idling for hours. Huge environmental impact as well. It's, yeah, so we forecast, we've, we've done that in some of the first work we've done. We forecast a 72% reduction in emissions. Wow. That includes CO2. But as you know, CO2 is not the only thing that comes out of a tailpipe when you're running a diesel engine. And we just cut the emissions overall. And then the, the second thing is for the citizens, the traffic, right? Yeah. Neither the trucks wanna be mixed up in downtown traffic, nor the citizens want trucks mixed up in the downtown traffic. So I think it's kind of one of those, it's a win-win. It's a magic bullet. And our approach is always to solve discreet problems, right? We've found this problem. We wanna solve this problem. We're not going with a universal solution like autonomous trucking or trucks just drive across the nation. That's such a large thing that requires so many people to help. It's is challenging to solve. Right? And um, I think in the pre-call you were telling me you drive an ev. Right. Yep. I also, I, I own two vehicles. One is a, you know, gas driven SUV, and the other is a Tesla cyber truck. And so. We would have to replicate that level of infrastructure, but with way more electricity to do trucking. I mean, the trucks are gonna just absolutely require enormous battery packs and huge amounts of power to charge. So if that envisioned future is coming, it is a long ways off. Well, and you were mentioning as well that you're involved. In development of a hybrid truck. That's right. So we have, um, we have two things that we've done that have really informed our position on electrified trucking. Number one is we developed the technology plan for the Ohio Turnpike Authority in Ohio, DOT, to convert the state of Ohio, which has, um, I think it's the second highest state for through traffic with trucking. And as I mentioned, it's a, it's a big challenging problem. Ohio's not the only place you gotta solve it, right? That can be the template, but it's gotta go across the entire Midwest of the US where there's not necessarily high population, but we need high power now to get this solved. So that's, uh, the first thing that we did that gave us a lot of data and real time feedback from what the stakeholders in Ohio were saying. I like that 'cause it's big enough that it informs us. But then we still have to get it across every province of Canada and, and 50 states in the US to get that, make that work. The, the second thing that we did was we were asked to develop an electric and hybrid electric powertrain for the FAA to go at airports. And through that process, we have just completed. The first, um, HD Electric and HD hybrid powertrain that can meet the FAA spec. So this is, um, a technology. It's called Kodiak Tech, is the name of this, uh, company that we created. It's the name of the technology. Kodiak Tech, uh, produces about six times the power output as Elon Musk's semi. 24 hours continuous runtime. Wow. So we're able to do that with a hybrid powertrain that is a fully electric vehicle, but has a diesel generator on board. That gives us a lot of options because right now the US government is considering going to hydrogen. Which means they're gonna have to physically install hydrogen hubs across the south, you know, across the USA, one in the southeast, one in the Midwest, one in the northeast. So we can pull the diesel engine off and go to hydrogen to run the hybrid, or we can keep it diesel. We can use other fuels like propane. So it gives us a lot of flexibility on how we run this powertrain. But if we just stick with diesel because we have diesel everywhere, that's what we have today. Then it results in a, again, a, uh, round numbers, a 70% fuel savings. So which of your truckers that are listening doesn't want to have a 70% fuel savings and the ability to have more power. Then the Tesla Semi by Elon Musk. Yeah. So that gives truckers, in my view, a lot of options to work with better economics. And then of course, uh, you mentioned the environmental impact is just good for the environment. Well, and there's so much Yeah. Benefit to saving the earth, but. The idea of a hybrid, I think, and you mentioned it, I drive an electric car. I don't see electric being the, at least not battery powered electric being the answer to class eight trucks. Uh, hybrid makes an awful lot of sense, uh, because, I mean, I see the benefit of an electric motor in my car, but the, the charging and the infrastructure needed for that. For trucks would just be huge's. And so you're taking diesel that is already everywhere, uh, and using a diesel generator to, uh, create the electricity? Correct. Yeah. If, if I was gonna look, I always look for kind of what the one fatal flaw is when I try to solve something. The challenge with electric trucking is quite simply the weight of the battery pack. Those are liquid cooled batteries. Any of the electric truck companies, startups that sat there trying to solve this. For extended range, you're gonna get up to a 25,000 pound battery pack, and that diminishes your ability to haul freight. So you want to have a, you do want battery electric?'cause we're both electric car drivers. We realize it's actually just a better experience. It's a, it's a better vehicle. Um, and you want the fuel economy savings, right, which are so critical to making trucking a better cost for the customer and better economics for the driver. And, go ahead. There's a huge maintenance savings. Yes, absolutely. These are very easy vehicles to maintain. Um, most all the parts are plug and play, you know, so if something goes bad, you just unbolt it and then you bolt on a new part. It's not, doesn't require all the maintenance, but then when we think about. The, uh, the trucking with, with this hybrid electric powertrain. You know, the other major benefit is the extended runtime. So I'll give you, uh, an example. Uh, Dodge is talking about going to a hybrid for its new Dodge Ram. So they're gonna have a V six onboard, but the purpose of the V six is to charge the battery pack. So it's an electric vehicle with a range extending engine on board. So with trucking, if we can get to truckers where they realistically can expect a 24 hour runtime with 70% fuel savings, I think that's significant and it makes a compelling case. Why, how to do electric in something complicated like trucking, it would be huge. I mean, fuel is a, in the top 10 of expenses. Um, maintenance is right up there as well. If you can reduce the maintenance. I mean, you're not eliminating maintenance. There's still some maintenance, but. My electric motor has never had an oil change yet, and my car is four years old. So, uh, there is, as I understand it, there is oil in the motor, but, uh, it doesn't need to be changed. The, the other part too that I think would be interesting for truckers is I, I don't know if you're a self-driving advocate. My cyber truck came with the the FSD package. It's a self-driving native car. I love driving my cyber truck. It's an exciting vehicle to drive. It's fast, it's cool, you know it. It handles very well. When I'm in a driving environment that is either highly technical, such as my kids drop off, where I have to go around a circle and I'm, I'm worried about kids, I drive it myself, but then, uh, when it's routine traffic or stop and go or traffic lights, I just hit the button and let itself drive. Because that's not necessarily fun driving. So I think for the, any drivers that are listening, what they would experience is very similar to a pilot that uses autopilot in their aircraft. Of course, they do the takeoff and landing themselves, but when you're cruising along at 35,000 feet, it's probably just easier. It makes more sense to hit the autopilot, right? And so I think this electric, um, drive, train for commercial trucking. Would be, uh, a major, um, energy boost. It'd be much easier for drivers because they can opt in and out of supervised self-driving as conditions call for it. One of the things I do a lot, and this can be done in any car, is I use, uh, cruise control within city limits now because of these dam speed cameras everywhere. I, I don't know what the states is like, but up here in Canada, they are, every jurisdiction needs more money. Therefore, they're deploying speed cameras because it's automated, which kind of ties into what you do. But, you know, so I use cruise control frequently within the City R. Great idea. Uh, well, I hate up here. It's a $90 flipping ticket, so I don't. I take it You got one? I did and it was stupid.'cause I knew where the camera was. It wasn't, you know, I don't know how I got it, but I did that, that model wise just so fast. You know, it's just so fast. So, um, yeah, so I think, I think these things in combination, right? If we rethink how we pick up freight. That's where we started, and then we rethink what are the power systems that move us while we're hauling the freight. I think those are both very transformative to the trucking industry. I think it's huge and really exciting. I mean, the odd time I get to teach at a local truck driving school here, and sometimes they do ask the question about automation and will they have a job in five, 10 years, and I. Believe that they will for 25 to 30 years still have a job operating a a tractor trailer. It's going to change significantly. What happens, like you talked about supervised, uh, control. But it, it's still gonna be a human behind the wheel for many years to come, I believe. Oh, for, for my entire career. You can, you can take that to the bank. I mean, as a person that spends all my time in cutting edge robotics and automation. Canada's had, its its trucking, trucking issues that have been famous. You know, the US is having some, I'm moving some freight right now and I'm often having to call, you know, upwards of 10 carriers just to get a driver to take the load. So we need more drivers, which the easy solution here is just give our existing drivers more technology, save them time that makes their job to where they can do more freight, right? I think that's the big idea. So that's the way I see technology is really empowering the drivers to haul more freight and to make more money hauling freight that could attract younger drivers as it's a more profitable industry. And then making sure that our existing drivers are just more efficient, so they get more freight moved on a daily basis. There was a study done and I believe it was the US federal government, and I'll make the number up as I honestly forget, but I remember being shocked at how few hours the drivers actually drive. Well, I get, I have another data point for you, and this is not to get too technical, but maybe your audience is into this. We installed sensors at one of the top three beverage companies in the us so probably almost all of your audiences hauled freight for this company at, uh, it's liquid freight, they're hauling beverages. Um, what we found, we installed sensors at the truck docks. What we found was that the average truck waiting to be loaded had an idle time of 90 minutes. And that in some cases it exceeded um, two and a half hours. So that trucker is either in the cab waiting, when is the warehouse worker gonna load my truck, or they were in the trucker's lounge, which are always kind of small and cramped, and the coffee's always kind of burnt, you know? And so it's not a very comfortable place to wait that long. You'd rather be out there making money. And whether the company had the incentive to learn this, not because they were so worried about inconveniencing truck drivers, but because they were getting charged by the carrier's idle penalties and they said, Hey, this, this project to install this automation would just pay back if we just cut out all the idle time. Well, that's a way, that's one of those win-win cases. The company wins 'cause they're no longer paying idle time. The trucker wins because they have an average turnaround time that's much faster. And then the dock worker has a clear set of priorities on when to load a truck. So what we worked with this company on was simple concepts that could be done manually at first, and then of course through robotics later on. And then back to the cab. Get ready to unlock and haul out. Right? So. That was one of those situations where we had a deep learning, just studying one company. But this company is typical of all manufacturing and distribution centers across the us well across North America, unfortunately. Trucks waste. Yeah. I don't mean to leave Canada out when I say us so. Well, no, I just, you know, I, we have the same problems, exactly the same issues up here. So, uh, Matt, I really appreciate your time. Is there a last word that you would like to get out there? As to maybe specifically how you're helping truckers. Yeah, I think the, the other piece that I didn't talk about here was actually automating the warehouses. You know, so if you can imagine the same, the same labor challenges that we have in trucking apply really across the supply chain. One of the things that we're really focused on is helping manufacturing companies who have huge trucking demand. To really have a very efficient system that builds the inventory. We have now deployed multiple facilities that automatically load truck trailers, so we want to have that automation that we talked about in the trucking industry go all the way back into the warehouse or the production facility so that when the trailers arrive, the freight is being automatically loaded. We've checked the inventory, we know where it's going. It's the right inventory. Quality control has been through their piece. And distribution facilities, then we're just gonna be able to be a more productive, you know, continent overall. I mean, I said I made sure to say continent instead of country'cause I realized I forgot about Canada twice in this call. But I think that's one of the biggest things we have to do is we just have to do more with what we have. And robotics, software and automation are a huge piece of making us, uh, getting us ready to do more with what we have. God, I, how I hope you and your, your company are successful in achieving that because it would be a huge win for truck drivers, you know, for the, the economy. Yes. But I was thinking of the environment as well. Uh, yes. And we have to do all those things. You know, and just one last point, going back to your beverage company that you mentioned, all of a sudden if they can turn around and get those trucks out very efficiently, all of a sudden all the drivers will wanna work and pick up loads at that place. Instead of right now, they're probably going, oh man, I gotta go there. Yeah, yeah. And those are those, a lot of those facilities, as your listeners know. They're even challenging to back into just getting into the facility. They're so jam packed that it's tough to get the, the trailer back to the dock as the standard. Get in, get loaded. Of course, we don't want to forego quality and safety, those sort of things, but get in, get loaded and get out. That keeps the facility working harder. It gets that truck dock ready for the next load, and it keeps the truckers happier because that was a very efficient use of their day. Well, and all of a sudden, a happy truck driver I think is a safer truck driver. So yeah. Love it. With that, Matt Jang, thank you so much for coming on the show this week. What a great show. Thanks Matt, for coming onto the show and sharing all this with us. This kind of stuff really intrigues me. Thanks so much. That's it for this week, uh, on the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. If you are enjoying the show, please click, like, subscribe, leave us a comment, you know what to do. It helps spread the word to others. And hey, if you wanna do me a huge favor, share this episode of the podcast with somebody that you think would really enjoy it. Thanks so much. See you next week.