From Seals to Steals: Ensuring Cargo Safety in Transport

Navigating Cargo Claims and Fraud with Liam Richards

In this episode, William 'Liam' Richards, CEO of Arete Adjusting in America, discusses his role in adjusting claims for insurance, trucking, and freight brokering companies, with a specialized focus on marine logistics and cargo movement. 

The conversation delves into the evolving nature of fraud in insurance and cargo claims, highlighting the impact of COVID-19 on increasing fraud incidents. 

Richards emphasizes the importance of being vigilant and methodical in preventing fraud, such as verifying credentials and avoiding last-minute load bookings. He also touches upon the complexities of handling insurance claims, the litigation process, and the need for better education on claims management. 

The episode wraps up with humorous anecdotes illustrating common mishaps and valuable lessons in the logistics industry.

Contact Liam of Arete Adjusting

Arete Adjusting, LLC

https://areteadjusting.com/

william.richards@areteadjusting.com

John Farquhar

National Risk Services Specialist, Transportation, Gallager GGB

https://www.ajg.com/ca/

M: 437-341-0932

John_Farquhar@ajg.com

Chris Harris

CEO, Safety Dawg Inc.

905 973 7056

Transcript

0:00

What can you tell us is for one, is it on the increase at the moment decreasing stable? One thing just to point out, which I think is really important to start with is fraud has always been around. It's almost like the thieves have a pre-made shopping list of products that they're looking for. When this stuff is stolen, they're going to the destination that they were ordered to do it. You've got identity theft, you know, which plays into it. Yeah, I mean, it is definitely some of that, like we need to be a little bit more. Street smart is the way I'd put it about this thing. Like everyone's out to get everyone. How do you prevent fraud? When fraud happens, it happens when people are in a hurry. Hey, this weekend on the show, we are talking all things cargo theft and what you can do about it. I'm happy to welcome Liam Richers from Arete Adjusting. Let's get on to the show. Welcome to the Trekking Risk and Insurance podcast. All right, Liam Richards, welcome to the show. Can you please start off by introducing yourself? Hey, thank you very much for having me on here. So I am, uh, William Richards, but I go by Liam. Um, and I am CEO of Arete Adjusting in uh, America. And what we do is we adjust claims on behalf of insurance companies as well as, uh, trucking and freight broing companies. And our niche is marine logistics and kind of trucking anything that moves a cargo from A to B, including actually rail. We're kind of involved in the claim side of it on the cargo and the liability side as well. Yeah, and we, I. Currently do a lot of work for the domestic US market, uh, including some of the Canada stuff, uh, and also have some overseas clients as well who do business over here. Yeah. In my background, you don't know I worked for a Canadian insurance company, but we were owned by Great West Casual, which is of larger American outfits. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They, they handled a claimer too, but hey, we're talking about claims and one of the things I really thought. I would like to get into is fraud in, in both insurance and in cargo claims. What can you tell us is. For one, is it on the increase at the moment decreasing stable? One thing just to point out, which I think is really important to start with is fraud has always been around, I think since Cargo's moved from A to B, like this isn't a new risk, but the risk has evolved and certain factors have caused it to evolve. Um, I, my personal opinion on it is that I, I'm pretty sure that Covid played a pretty big part in, um. Increase in fraud because a lot of, uh, transactions when it came to moving cargo started to be done from behind a computer and it got very easy for people to kind of intercept loads, kind of create freight profiles because that was the way business was done for a period of time. And where coming out of that, and I think that a lot of companies have wised up to it, it's still definitely on the increase. Certain commodities, for example, um, are front of, sought after than a lot of others. For example, food. Is usually kind of sought after. Electronics is a big one actually. Those are probably the two big ones. Not to say that they're the only ones, but like you'll find that a lot of, um, companies that track this sort of data talk about increases yet in food and also the electronics and then the easy ones to target. And, and there's usually a black market, um, like shopping order for these things. Like if people think that fraud is kind of random, like it's just like, oh, like. This guy decided that this load on this day was the one that was gonna get, oh, it's not really how it works. These guys are very smart, very organized, and they usually go into these things thinking we need to steal X amount of. Phones or laptops, where can we come all go to those like load boards that might have those sort of commodities. It's almost like the thieves have a pre-made shopping list of products that they're looking for because they, behind the scenes, they already have buyers lined up, so it's just a matter of finding the right product. A hundred percent. Um, and it's like, yeah, like when this stuff is stolen, they're going to the destination that they were ordered to do it, right? It's not like they're waiting on the side of the road calling their mates, being like, Hey, I put this. Yeah, it's very organized. Um, a good savvy person. It wouldn't be hard to follow. The product, you know, between knowing the distribution centers, the warehouses that those, those products are at, and then monitoring the carriers that come and do, you know, just sitting out in front of a distribution warehouse and doing your surveillance for a couple of days just to see what's going on. And then, you know, I think one of the things we've heard before is you've got identity theft. Mm-hmm. You know, which plays into it and, and. I don't think companies do enough and I, I might be getting ahead here. Don't, don't scold me too badly, but I don't think companies are doing enough with their drivers to train them on how to keep your mouth shut and don't talk about what the freight is you're hauling. You know, don't be gabbing to somebody at the truck stop. You know, and other people can overhear you. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some of that. Like we need to be a little bit more street smart is the way I'd put it about this thing. Like everyone's acting. So why increase your reliability by just talking about stuff that is gonna make you a target at the end of the day? Right? It's not in anybody's business. Nope. You've raised an interesting point too about like, uh, impersonating other like legitimate carriers and stuff. Um, there, I've been speaking to a few, like people who have experienced this and it's these fraudsters and these bad actors are going around like buying like login details for their kind of governments kind of approved profile and everything like that. And. These truckers. Yeah. I mean, they're just buying them for tens of thousands of dollars or whatever they, they bid from them for, and yeah, so you have the legitimate carrier who's now passed the details on for a bit of money. He sets up a new company. I'm the wiser. Um, and that kind of needs to be more, regulated isn't the word, but it just needs, people need to be aware of it, but people are catching on because there are companies that track these things. And changes of ownership are, is definitely one of those. Key or performance indicators that kind of, you need to look at and see like, Hey, are we dealing with the same people and obvious ones, as well as just changing phone numbers and details. Just being very aware of the whole profile changes internally. Broad is gonna be there forever. It's never gonna, we're never gonna nip it in the but completely. We're gonna, we're just gonna have to embed it every single time. I know from, from my perspective, I was on the, the company side, the insurance side for a long period of time, and I've just recently jumped over the brokerage side and it's something I've always done with clientele is making that relationship with a last minute carrier. I. To the last minute on a Friday. Right? You know, think about, you know who you might wanna work with down the road and set that relationship up. Now, get those credentials. Take the time to look into those credentials, do your background searching of those carriers. Don't post the load. And then take the guy who you've never met or heard from before at four o'clock on a Friday afternoon and go, well, I got nobody. I guess I'll give you the load. Yep. And then again, you, you've hit another really good point, I think, which is like, I think fraud. When fraud happens, it happens when people are in a hurry. It's never something that people are just like, oh yeah, like, we're gonna use you in three weeks. Like mm-hmm. It's always like, oh, it needs to be done now. It needs to be done quickly. And everyone's, and the person who's booking the load probably is like, I need to get this done, otherwise I'm gonna get in trouble. And so they're just, you know, doing what they need to do to kind of do the job. So I think you're right. I think to combat this sort of stuff. Level heads needs to prevail. It needs to be kind of like, all right, we'll choose this carrier. And it may be a re-review, kind of, I don't know, down the line, just being like, Hmm, do we really want to use this for this carrier, for this load? And um, another thing that comes up with fraud is when you are booking loads with these carriers, making sure that the commodity like. If you are gonna give a new carrier like a $600,000 load, like is that really the right eye things to do? Like maybe give 'em something a little smaller just to test them out? You, yeah. That $25 worth of dirt. Yeah, the load of the new iPhones, uh, may not be the one you would choose for the first trial. Right? Exactly. Like, um, I think 'cause I, I think to combat fraud is just a bit of common sense and a bit of levelheadedness, but I, but like I said, these. If these bad actors, they're evolving. Like if, if we start doing something, they're gonna be combating that and doing what they can to kind of get involved. But we can make their life difficult by just slowing down the process a little bit. But unfortunately, transport isn't about. Being a slow, the transporting. So yeah, I'll share a quick example. Uh, I was just out to see a client last week and um, we were talking about if he brokers freight through his company to other carriers. He goes, no, no. Did that once got burned badly. So he now has a, a rule that we do not broker any freight to anybody, whether it be a carrier or broker, whatever. And what they've done is if they get into a jam. They call the customer and say, we're not able to handle the load, uh, because of this, this, or this. If you want, you are welcome to take the load back. You can give it to whoever you want, or if you'll wait till tomorrow, I will have the truck available. We'll get it picked up tomorrow or the Monday or whatever it be. And he says his communication with his clients. Has very clearly set the margin that they're going, we are not interested in taking the risk of dealing with somebody we don't know. We would rather stall the load for a day. We know you can take care of it. So, yeah, I mean, like you, again, raising some interesting ideas because like, I, I really do feel for new carriers wanting to come into the industry, like new truckers, like, I don't know through my experience, but I, I imagine it's be very difficult. To get established as a new trucker. Yes. And the hoops they must jump through like it. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's gonna be a real problem, I think. So the truck, there's not enough trucks as it is to kind of deliver all the, so I'd be very interested to see how the industry handles that. Um, with like up and coming truckers trying to get into the industry and just establish themselves. The new trucking companies typically start on load boards. That's where they start because there's no customer direct relationship built yet. So they need the load board to start out, you know? But how do you, we've talked a little bit about how to prevent fraud. Do you have any other suggestions? One of the things that came to my mind while you were talking is just going on the internet. You mentioned changing of phone numbers. Uh, I heard that one of the ways. They're doing, it is they're buying existing, um, DOT numbers, especially if it's old and not being used. So now all of a sudden, as you said, if that phone number changed, that would be a red flag. Are there other ways? There are other ways and it's just properly looking at the information that's being provided. So like an example that I've, I've seen before just handling claims is someone says, oh, they sold the load, here's what they gave us. And you're looking at it and you're like, oh. This driver's license expired six years ago. Like, did this, did you guys not catch this? And they're like, oh, no, we, we didn't really look at it. And it's like, like they're handing you documents and information that seem legitimate and seem part of the process, but just double checking that they are there for that load, making sure that all reference numbers are. Absolutely correct. I've seen a lot of bills of lading that look very identical to originals, but there's usually a different reference, like an internal reference number, um, that they haven't been managed to copy. And it's like, well, did you guys check your own internal reference number with this? And it's like, oh no. So again, I think it goes back to that idea of just slowing down, like looking at everything. Double checking that this is a legitimate person that showed up and, but properly looking like just glancing at a driver's license, being like, oh, he's got tick the box. Oh, he is got a bill of lading. Tick the box. Oh, he is got a truck. Tick the box. Let's give him the look. He's got a truck. Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the other important things that you're looking for? When handling those claims, not just with fraud claims, but just insurance claims in general. There is a lack of education in understanding the claims process, and this is, I think just because insurance is a very uninteresting and uninspiring kind of little industry, but there's a lot of like handholding that goes into a claims process and then like during your adjuster should be kind of. Very clear with their communication about what they need and how they need it, but also you like they're gonna ask the same questions every time. Like a cargo claim doesn't change one week to another. It's the same documents if it's your first one, okay, but use this as a learning experience. But if you have another claim, if you have another fraud claim, you're gonna get the same questions from the adjuster. So maybe prepare that stuff in advance, make a checklist. Yeah, like use the adjusters checklist for your own internal purposes, like, and just be like, they're gonna need this. This is what we kind of need to do. So I think there needs to be a little bit more of that. Um, but that comes unfortunately with just engaging with insurance claims. And like I said, I, I understand that when you're working with a company, your insurance claim is not the most. Entertaining and enticing thing. But it is important because it protects your community and process can educate you on how to better protect yourself, especially with fraud. If you're being asked certain questions, being like, why aren't we asking those questions internally? Maybe we should. Um, and taking notes of that. I think that definitely needs to be a little bit more of that going on. And the other thing is, uh, some of the like, like kind of challenges is, um, the expectation for insurance. To basically handle everything Like insurance isn't there to, oh, you've got a claim now they're gonna run my company and handle this claim. Like, no, like you still need to be part of the process. You have the relationships, so leverage those, try and get the information. The adjuster is after that. You want to know yourself hopefully, because by no getting the answers, you are gonna be a little bit more aware. Um, and just, yeah, setting that expectation that just because you handle a claim and it's not necessarily gonna be paid, it is gonna be a process. You are gonna have to answer some questions and the insurance isn't just then gonna just take over and be kind of like if a load gets rejected by the consignee, like the insurance company isn't gonna find a new buyer or isn't going to really contact the shipper and be like, Hey. We need you to take this back, like that's kind of something that you need to do yourself. Like we're there to help you. Like we can help draft emails, we can help draft communications. That kind of will hopefully get a good result, but the action of doing some of these stuff does need to be done through. The policy holder and the insurance themselves. If I can throw in there, I think also your broker or insurance agent can be a great assistance to the whole process 'cause they've been involved. Well, if you've got an experienced one, they've been involved already in probably hundreds. Of claims and they are experienced and they can help a lot on that. Yep. No, a hundred percent. That's a great, great thing to bring out. And I say, yeah, brokers and agents are a great resource, especially if possibly you don't necessarily trust your insurance company because brokers and agents are working on your behalf. And also I, I'm not sure if people are kind of aware of this when they pay their premium and the commissions go to these people like part of their job. Is to help you with your insurance claims as they come through it. Their job isn't just to get you insurance. They're there as a resource for you throughout your policy term until you decide to change broker or anything like that. Yeah. You brought up, you said it, but I'm gonna jump on it because if I am insured and I don't trust my insurance company, I've got a big problem. A hundred percent because it like, really, if you don't trust your insurance company, get a different insurer. Mm-hmm. Get in bed with somebody that you can trust. Because I mean, you're a for-profit company. I'm a for-profit company. Johnny works for a broker. Now we gotta be careful what we say, that it's all about profit. You know, like profit's not a bad word is what I'm trying to say. Well, like we gotta do it the right way. It sounds like I'm really religious. No, I know what you're trying to say. I think you're trying to say it's all gotta be in good faith. It's. See, get these insurance guys, they can speak the lingo. Mm-hmm. Faith. Yeah. That's the correct word. So one of the, one of the things we were talking about before, uh, off camera, uh, and you know, we've. Touched on the fraudulent aspect of it and whatnot, but when it comes down to litigation time, how much are you involved in the litigation aspect? What are you seeing in that approach when you're having to deal with these claims and you know, what kind of outcomes or do you see any direction as how certain claims are going? Certain ways? Yeah. So, uh, here in America, um, it's a very litigious. Um, market like you must be prepared to be litigated against. And if you are, it's not a reflection on how you've handled things. It's not, it's just unfortunately how some of the processes and when it comes to litigation, um, definitely get your insurer involved as soon as you receive it, hopefully before. But like, don't try and handle this yourself. Like this is definitely something the insurance needs to be engaged in. And. What I do is kind of help insurers with strategy for litigation. Um, I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be, but we can appoint the right experts to, or the right lawyer that we need for the, um, to defend the liability. And we kind of look at the approach taken by the, uh, plaintiffs. And when it comes to litigation management, it's definitely a matter of understanding the specifics of the claim. So being forthcoming with your insurance company with information is very important. If you hide things, you're just going like harm your own defense. You need to be forthcoming with this stuff. And you also need to understand that, uh, when a litigation happens, your insurance company, nine times out of 10 is gonna want to get out of it. So they're gonna look to try and make a, like a settlement faced, usually on legal costs, um, that they project. But, um, a lot of the times actually, um, some of the challenges is that we have an insured who has taken a claim very personally. So they're like, oh no, I don't wanna pay this. You just defend my liability. They get sued. They're like, no, I wanna drag this out in court until like, we get these, the, the judgment. 99% of the time these things don't go to trial. These things don't go, like, it's usually there's a me mediation and a quick settlement. Like, and a settlement will be had, uh, based upon the merits. Unfortunately that does mean though, that the higher quantum of claim, the more likely litigation is gonna happen. So if I see a claim that's in six figures and it's looking li like the liability is in the gray, or not even the gray, it's just there. There's just no liability. Like we've just determined there's no liability. There's still probably a 50% chance you're gonna get litigated against. Yep. And you've just gotta accept it. You've just got to like, all right, we will see how this goes. Come up with a strategy, see what the insurer wants to do, and try and resolve it amicably as best we can. And luckily we'd be pretty successful with that. Liam, can you repeat that?'cause I think that is a highlight what, even when the liability is either gray or not against you. What do you think the, uh, percentage chance of getting, uh, sued is? Probably about 50% with, uh, if you are, if the quantum's high enough, then I'm just saying anything really over six figures. Like I'm, I'm, if a claim comes in day one over six figures and I look at it, my initial assessment is, I don't think there's liability here. Still gotta click some stuff and find that out. But I'm always kind of the thinking, Hmm, we gotta factor in. We might get litigated against simply because someone's gonna go to a lawyer. Lawyer's gonna know, like the plaintiff's strategy is just, let's sue, let's try and get something. Most of the time the strategy is usually based upon the projected legal costs. If there's no li um, if there's no liability. But then again, it all depends on the insurer. I have some clients, very stubborn. They will. They will fight. They'll fight a little bit. They don't wanna be seen as pushovers and no insurance company does. My, my advice to insurers though is just remembering that, that it is part of the process with this stuff. Yeah. It's not, it's, no, it's not a reflection on you. It's not something to be afraid of. Your insurance company is there to help you with these situations and they will help you. That's why you should get insurance for this sort of stuff. But again. Same with Rob, just approaching it level Headedly. Hopefully you trust your insurance that they're gonna handle it and work with them. Try and get the result that you want as much as your insurance comes. I talk with clients a lot about that you specialize in a service of transporting product from A to B. That's your specialty. You do not specialize in handling claims. Exactly. That's what insurance companies and adjusters do. Let them do their job. So, and, and you'd said it early on, you need to engage them right away, you know, even before, um, police are involved. Sometimes it's a matter of letting know, letting your insurance providers know, Hey, I've just had this situation. Cargo was stolen out of the yard, equipment was stolen out of the yard. You know, we were involved in a crash. Doesn't matter, but. Engage your team. Now, don't try to do this yourself'cause it'll just cost you more money. Yep. 100%. Um, especially, uh, the amount of times I get, I get just litigation. That's the first email I get on a claim. It's just like, oh, you mean litigator? Oh, it was 10 months ago. What do you insure, Neil? So do you guys have any statement from 10 months ago? And they're like, oh, what? 10? I remember what I wore that day and you went, oh yeah, exactly. Oh, that diver doesn't work here anymore. Yeah, we sold that truck and uh, yeah, we don't even have that customer anymore, so, yeah. Let me ask you an unscripted question. Uh oh.'cause it just popped into my head. Going back to my insurance stays and food claims a broken seal. Mm-hmm. In my world, we had a, uh, fellow jump the fence and he broke several seals on trailers until he found the trailer he wanted to steal, and he stole that. And that was a, a claim. But one of the other claims was one of the seals he broke, had a load of food on it. Now, of course, the receiver doesn't wanna accept it because. The seal was broken, the door was open, potentially that could have been contaminated. How does that come into insurance?'cause a broken seal seems really minor. I. No, it's, it's a very good question and something that I think any adjuster who deals in transportation will have dealt with, and it's one of those things where the first thing you should probably look at is your contractual liability with your customer.'cause if there is a broken seal clause that kind of says if a seal is broken in any way and any manner you are liable for the whole thing, then that's clear cut like you, you can't really do anything about that sort of thing. No. Read your contracts. Yes, they are important. Believe it or not, share your contracts with your insurers so they know what they're up against. Yeah, and actually I'll just point out like, just follow up on that because a lot of insurance policies I see actually have a contracts clause that basically say if you don't give these contracts to your insurer to approve, then they don't assume the liability. So when you get new contracts throughout the year, always talk to your insurance company and just say, Hey, got a new customer, here's the contracts. Like, we wanna make sure that this is insured. But um, going back to the broken seals thing, um, so look at the contract. So when you talk about food and stuff like that, I think it really depends on what exactly is being transported. If it's, uh, like berries that are in kind of just like plastic containers, I think, and because of the regulations around food and the standard, it needs to be like, unfortunately. For insurance companies, it's looking like they'll have to pay, but they accept that. I think at the end of the day, it's like they're gonna try and, uh, mitigate the loss, which is always a very important process. So they'll, there's usually, if you get your insurer, tell 'em about the broken seal with the original customer. They've rejected the whole shipment, then, uh, they can help salvage it. Uh, you or yourself might be able to sell it at a reduced price. Like actually there's a claim I'm dealing with at the moment where it kind of is exactly a broken seal. Nothing was wrong with it, it was just a broken seal, but the, what it was being used for, um, which, uh, was baby formula? Like, be like, oh, well we're not gonna mess with that. Like, we're not gonna. Sort of thing, but hey, the insured is very due diligent. He managed to find a secondhand buyer, so they gotta a reduce, it's not a complete total loss. They managed to find someone else who, the requirements weren't as stripped, but they could still use it. Then you can kind of claim, usually there's a, the claim is based then on the difference between the salvage sale and what you kind of would've got. That's, I'm not saying it happens every time, but that's kind of usually how it happens. And with the broken seal stuff, it's. Speed is usually required. You need to kind of inform your customer straight away. If they're saying, we don't want it anymore, start talking internally. What are we doing with this? If, are we just gonna claim a total loss? Oh, okay. Well your premium's gonna go up if you do that. Yep. Can we sell it to anyone? Even donate it or anything like that? But I would always look at your insurance policy. And I will also say this too, your insurance policy, like I think all people will probably not like me for this, but it is a hundred percent negotiable. If you don't like one insurer's wording, you get another insurer if you want, for example, broken seal coverage, but it's not offered. Talk to your broker, be like, Hey, I want a standard, I want a cover policy, but I also want to be able to have broken seal coverage where I decide kind of what happens. Endorsements can be put into play. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So o Okay, Liam. It's it's funny story time. Okay. Um, so I'm, I'm gonna tell you about a funny claim and I want you to see if you got one to tell us.'cause this is, this ties in perfect with exactly what you're talking about. Dealt with a client here late last year. Who had a $75,000 cargo loss. Mm-hmm. What had happened was the driver was hauling a truckload of peanut butter and, uh, some of the skids were double stacked, and he had a heartbreak application. It was recorded on his telematics device. It was recorded in the dash camera wasn't the driver's fault. However, the driver had heard something in the trailer behind him, so he thought, oh, oh, one of the skids is tipped over. So. He gets pulled over at a rest area. He breaks the seal, gets into the trailer, starts moving boxes to re-stack the boxes so it doesn't look so bad. Okay, so tears down a couple of skids, gets back in the truck. Puts the seal back on broken. Just lets it hang, gets to the, to the, uh, receiver. And here's the funny part. He wasn't far from the receiver when this happened. Gets to the receiver, shows up and they say, okay, we'll come out and, we'll, we'll take the seal off so you can back in the door. Oh no, I've already done that. Here you go. Here I've, I already broke the seal off. No, no. We have a policy that we do it. Oh, well I had to break it because uh, I had some, uh, the boxes moved and I had to fix them and whatnot. So here's the seal. Oh, oh, is that real? Okay, guess what? We're not taking the load. We don't want the load'cause we break the seal. He failed to even call his dispatch to tell them that he'd had this. Concern with the loaded being shifted because they would've said, just go to the receiver and, and let them deal with it, and go from there. Needless to say, this load was taken from Toronto to Florida to be delivered and had this claim. They brought it back all the way to Michigan.'cause here's the funny part, it was food. They couldn't bring it back into Canada because the customer or the shipper would not rec would, would not accept the load. So they brought it back to Michigan where they sold it to a food bank for $5,000. So they lost $70,000 and the insurer decided to go, stupidity, I'm sorry, we're denying the claim. You're paying it out of pocket. So, yeah, I thought that was funny. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely two lessons to learn there. One is always talk to your broker and customer whenever you wanna break a seal. Even like, it's not to say that you can't, it's just get permission first. Just say, Hey, I need to just break the seal just to make sure that this thing's good. And two, involve your insurance when you're trying to go through that process.'cause yeah, if an insurance company gets a claim and they're like, oh, I sold it for five grams, and like, and they're like, well. Was it damaged? Like it there, there's, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it is kind of funny. Um, mine is, um, I would, I would've, I would've, I, I would've, I would've stopped at every rest area on the way home and tried to sell it out of the back of the trailer to all the people talking about, Hey, want a jar of peanut butter? I got peanut butter. You made arrest. Any of, but you have a story that you can share with us. Yeah. A humorous claim start. So I have, um. A stor, like a situation that, uh, came across my desk, which, um, was definitely one that you just kind of like chuckle at. But, so it was a, a trucker in the US he was delivering, uh, blackberries and it was only blackberries. There were, I think like six pallets kind of packed quite high. And the. What happened was he arrived at the consignee and the berries were everywhere. Like he opened the trailer. There was, they were just everywhere over the thing. And during the investigation it was like, oh, like, like, did you peck and prep this? Like no, it was all the shipper. They put it in and like, yeah, like, and I looked at it, I said, or I was thinking, I didn't say, I was thinking, oh, like this isn't quite right. This isn't really gonna work. But they've done it. Like, I'm just gonna deliver this, and so. Instead of kind of advise of the shipper, like, this needs to be braced, or maybe we need to like not stack these berries. Maybe we put them all on the single level, which he knew the answer but didn't say anything. And then, yeah, when he arrived at, uh, the consignee, it was just like, uh, berry juice in the back of his car, just, and then he is, uh, he's blaming everyone saying it's not his fault because he didn't do it, but. Mate, sorry. Like you did the load. Yeah. You are the expert. If you don't, if you are not comfortable with how it was loaded, how it was prepared, and how it was put in your truck, you need to say something. Don't just think it. Don't just think, oh, idiot. You like go, like, you need to be aware of this stuff. Yeah. Well, I mean, just to, to wrap that one up. You don't know the loader. What experience does this person have? Maybe he's a, a new part-time employee or just a brand new employee. This is his first job. He doesn't know anything. Or maybe he's just a lazy SOB and stacked the skids up.'cause that was easy for him to do and rode the trailer that way. And hey, this truck driver didn't say shit or didn't say stuff. Uh, you know, like, yeah. Him. That's, that's a great way to, to wrap up the show, I think. Liam Richards, thank you so much for coming on and sharing, especially talking about the fraud and, and the last few minutes about the humor. Yeah. Thanks so much for running on the show. No worries. Thank you both and, uh, yeah, I wish you all the best as uh, more guests. Come on. It was really fun. Liam, as always, thank you so much for coming on the show and for you, the listeners and viewers, we have, Liam's contact info is in the show notes down below. Once again, thanks so much for tuning in. Don't forget to share this podcast with somebody who would benefit and click like, and subscribe. All the best. Chris, I'll see you next week.