Revolutionizing Trucking: Hydrogen vs. Diesel and Electric

Revolutionizing Trucking: High Road Energy's Hydrogen Trucks with Dmitri

In this episode of the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast, Dmitri, the founder and CEO of High Road Energy, discusses his company's innovative approach to revolutionizing the trucking industry with hydrogen fuel cell technology. 

Dmitri shares his journey from a childhood passion for vehicles to creating a hydrogen truck service that combines vehicle fuel and maintenance in a cost-effective, efficient model. 

Key points include the benefits of hydrogen fuel cells over battery electric technology for long-haul trucking, the development of hydrogen refuelling infrastructure, and the company's current and future projects in Texas and California. Dmitri emphasizes the importance of collaboration and education in advancing this cleaner, more sustainable transportation solution.

00:00 Introduction and Motivation
00:36 High Road Energy's Hydrogen Solution
02:26 Dmitri's Background and Journey
03:55 Understanding the Pay-Per-Mile Model
05:19 Challenges and Advantages of Hydrogen Trucks
09:36 Technical Insights and Infrastructure
14:32 Future Plans and Expansion
25:19 Conclusion and Call to Action

Dmitry Serov

Website: www.hyroadenergy.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hyroad-energy

General Inquiries: info@hyroadenergy.com

Your Hosts:

John Farquhar

National Risk Services Specialist, Transportation, Gallager GGB

https://www.ajg.com/ca/

M: 437-341-0932

John_Farquhar@ajg.com

Chris Harris

CEO, Safety Dawg Inc.

905 973 7056

Chris@SafetyDawg.com

https://safetydawg.com/

Transcript

0:00

What motivated you to move out of dollars and cents and spend your money to create this company? Ever since I was a kid, I, I had a mild obsession for anything on wheels. What is it that I road energy is offering? Hydrogen was the zero emission solution that was rip for trucks most curious question. Is this pay per mile? Can you explain how that works? That includes vehicle, fuel and maintenance, and that's an easy way for customers to benchmark against diesel. It is really an opex model rather than any, any kind of CapEx, uh, model, if that makes sense. What's different about hydrogen? You know, hydrogen is very, very energy dense by weight. Uh, you can refuel a hydrogen truck in under 20 minutes, much like you can a diesel truck. What if I told you that there is a revolutionary solution that's about to transform the trillion dollar trucking industry? I really want you to meet Dmitri. He's the visionary behind High Road Energy who's pioneering a game changing hydrogen truck service that's not just cleaner for our planet. It's actually more efficient than traditional diesel trucks. They've got a 500 mile range capabilities and 20 minute refueling times. This isn't just another green initiative. It just might be the future of transportation and it's happening now in Texas and California. Discover how this Ukrainian born entrepreneur is merging his passion for vehicles with groundbreaking technology to solve one of transportation's biggest problems. That's next on the Trucking Risk and Insurance podcast. Let's go. Welcome to the Trekking Risk and Insurance Podcast. Hey, Dimitri, welcome to the show. Can you take a minute and introduce yourself to our viewers? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Chris. It's, uh, uh, great to be on the show. Thank you for having me. Um, I am the, uh, founder and CEO of, uh, high Road Energy. We are a hydrogen truck as a service business. So what that means is we bundle truck fuel and maintenance in a simple dollar per mile, uh, commercial, uh, construct. And we're going to get into that more. But first you've gotta explain to me how somebody that has been in the, um, financial side of things for most of their history, always in energy. I understand that part. What motivated you to move out of dollars and cents and spend your money, uh, to create this company? I guess there, there, there's a long answer to that question and, and, and that, that, uh, longer answer is that, you know, ever since I was a kid, I, I had a mild obsession for anything on wheels. Uh, so I, I, uh, was born in Ukraine. Um, my mom tells me that from when I was five years old, I would sit on our seventh floor balcony and I could tell the make and model of every car that passed, uh, by us on the street. So, so that continued into adulthood. Uh, and then as, as you said, I, I became an energy guy, uh, primarily, uh, uh, as an investor, which is where I spent my, my whole career, uh, prior to high road. Um, so I, I guess high road is a way for me to, uh, to, to merge a, a passion with, with, with my expertise. If you'll cool. That is cool. I mean, and first of all, uh, high road by the way, for our viewers and listeners is not spelt the way you might think. It's H-Y-R-O-A-D energy. So if you're looking for Dmitri on the, uh, on the, the web, then you might wanna go HY road energy, right? So, Dmitri, you mentioned, my most curious question is this pay per mile. I spotted on the website when I was looking at it. Can you explain how that works? What it includes, and why it might be a benefit? Yeah, absolutely, Chris. So, uh, you know, we just find that paper Mile is, is an easy way for us to kind of, uh, benchmark the cost of our product in a way that is gonna resonate with our, with our customers. So effectively, uh, we, we, we do it, um, uh, as a, as a dollar per mile. Um, and that includes, uh, as I said, vehicle. Fuel, uh, and, and maintenance. And, you know, we, we found that, uh, that's an easy way for customers to benchmark against diesel. The other, uh, tenant of what we offer is that, uh, it, it is paper use. So, so customers don't have to put, uh, any capital to work prior to having the truck. Uh, operational and, and moving this around on our trucks. So it, it is really an opex model rather than any, any kind of CapEx uh, model, if that makes sense. Is this on a, like a, a lease type basis? Uh, would there be a certain tenure that you would be looking for to, for the, for that company to commit to? The answer is it, it depends on, on location, but we we're doing anywhere from, uh, shorter term, 12 month contracts to five year contracts. Okay. Okay. And I think I asked that question in, in my mind, out of order, what is it that High, high Road Energy is offering? What's the solution? Chris, maybe if, if I could just back, back up for for a second and, uh, uh, so a little bit more on, on kind of the journey to, uh, uh, to get to, to, to founding High Road. So, uh, prior to High Road, I was my investment director at a very large physical commodity trading business called Vit O and at Vitol. Uh, we spent a lot of time looking at battery electric, uh, for light and medium duty commercial applications. And, uh, I, I saw the, uh, challenges firsthand and how they would be exacerbated for heavy duty, uh, especially in the US where trucks travel longer distances. So for me, you know, the, it, it was a very large challenge in a very large, uh, opportunity. 70% of things in the US move, uh, around by truck. It's a trillion dollar industry. But it's, it is also a, uh, one that is responsible for a lot of pollution. Uh, it's about 9% of carbon emissions in the us, uh, and about half of all NOx and particular emissions from all of transport. So, you know, for me it was very important to, uh, to find a solution and there was a solution gap for, for heavy duty transport in, in, in the us. The more I studied the space, the more my conviction grew. That hydrogen was the zero emission solution that was right for trucks. And the the reason for that, so there are two zero emission technologies for trucks. Uh, one is where the energy comes from batteries. The other one is where the energy comes from. Hydrogen, um, battery electric is, uh, challenged as a solution for trucking. And the reason for that is you need a tremendous amount of energy that you move around in every truck. There are weight limitations to be able to use US roads and highways of about, uh, mostly 80,000 pounds. Um, and so batteries are fundamentally not energy dense and because of that you have range limitations and you have payload capacity reductions as a result of the weight of the battery. You also need multiple hours to recharge the battery, which, uh, impacts vehicle uptime during, um. Uh, productive driver hours. And I, I think the, the part of it that is discussed, uh, not enough in, in my mind, is the infrastructure constraints. So a lot of the times on, on these battery lift drive to, to, uh, maximize the range, these are close to megawatt hour batteries. And so really to recharge, uh, the, these batteries in, in, uh, short enough time, you really need megawatt charging. So if you have a, a truck charging location with megawatt charging, that's charging five trucks at the same time, that's the equivalent power draw of over 4,000 homes. And so to do that in a fairly remote location along the side of a highway, you need, you need a lot of things to happen. You need grid work, you need substations, you need power generation facilities. All of those things are very expensive. You have to interface with the utility, which, you know, utilities are not known for being, uh, very fast or user friendly. And, uh, so it, what's different about hydrogen, you know, hydrogen is very, very energy dense by weight, three times more so than diesel or gasoline. It's easier to move hydrogen over long distances. You can take, you can store hydrogen and take hydrogen in and out of storage easier. So what that means for trucks is that with hydrogen fuel cell, the latest models can do about 500 miles of range versus about 200 miles per most battery electric, uh, models. Uh, you can refuel a hydrogen truck in under 20 minutes, much like you can in a diesel truck. Um, they're lighter and, uh. We could put up a hydrogen refueling station anywhere, um, in, in many instances and with single digit, uh, millions of dollars. Uh, and, and then those stations are supplied by truck. Um, and so that's much simpler than having to, you know, build the, the full system to put up a, a truck charging station with limited access to power. Well, and the other part that comes to my mind for hydrogen. Is I've seen them. Um, there's a hydrogen truck filling station not far from where I live, but it's mixed in there. It's got diesel on one side. And then on the other side it's got the hydrogen. Yep. Um, yep. So it's the same truck stop for that Class eight vehicle. Exactly. And it still continues to be a pull through model, right. Rather than a sit in a park model, which is why charging stations require their own dedicated sites. Yeah. And, and by the way, you're talking to a Tesla owner, um, not a, not a class, a truck, but a car. And it works great for a passenger car. It does, and I will say for certain duty cycles, it works for trucking as well, right? For, for the drayage application, for example, where you're doing a hundred miles a bit, right? And, uh, they're, they're back to base, uh, operations. They, they, they're all concentrated. They sit in one location. It makes a lot of sense. Um, but a lot of trucks have different duty cycles. They need to go longer distances. They go point to point and, uh, for those duty cycles, hydrogen is the right solution. I mean, you're talking to somebody who's about 40 minutes away from Buffalo, New York, so a lot of our trucks go from there down to California. Right. And I agree with you. I don't, and I love my electric car. I am not a believer that in the Class eight space, electricity is going to be the main mode of, of generation in the future. Yeah. Yeah. Well it's been, it's been complained about a lot because of the downtime it takes to recharge. Right. So, you know, in comparison to what you're talking about Dmitri with, uh, hydrogen versus diesel versus electric, you know, you just lose so much time trying to recharge. Exactly. Exactly. And if you can do it in 20 minutes, like you said, to refuel and get another 500 miles, that's the same as a diesel. Yeah, that, that's it. I mean, in, in, in many ways, uh, the reason hydrogen resonates as much as it does with fleece is because they're familiar with it. It, it, it works in, uh, you know, in, in very similar ways to the way diesel works and. They have to make less adjustments to the way they operate to implement, uh, h high duty trucks. So, um, again, I think we're, we're targeting specific duty cycles. It's not, it's not right for all use cases for, for trucks, but a anybody, you know, really, we, we, we target anyone that does over 200 miles, right? Yeah. Well, and just like diesel, um. It. You could have a hydrogen truck do less than 200 miles. Of course there's no reason they can't. But as you say, your target, your ideal. Would be somebody who does what I call long haul. Exactly. And, uh, you know, what we try to, uh, uh, do for customers. Chris, you had you asked earlier what, what, what high roads, uh, business model is. So fundamentally what what we do is we, we try to, uh, accelerate the adoption of hydrogen fuel trucks by making it as easy and inexpensive as possible for fleet. So, you know, when battery electric trucks first became available. Um, a lot of fleets thought it was going to be relatively straightforward to roll them out, right? They, they thought, uh, the electricity already existed. Our depots, all we have to do is put up the chargers and off we go. Right? And, uh, the reality was a lot more complicated. Uh, they took on these very large projects. They had to interface with utilities. They had cost overruns, project delays, trucks in their balance sheet that they couldn't use. And, you know, fundamentally they were dealing with a lot of headaches that were non quarter of the business. And so what our value proposition is, is, uh, you know, first we, we centralize the expertise and we take the development burden away from the fleet so that all they have to do is agree to use the trucks when those trucks become available. Um, we aggregate demand, so. Hydrogen trucks are much less expensive to run at scale. So a 30, uh, truck fleet is much less expensive to run than a five truck fleet. And so we, we aggregate the men w with multiple customers in order to a, facilitate that cost of operation. Um, we are solution agnostic, so we're not beholden to any one hydrogen supply source, any one refueling technology, any one truck. And so our job is to understand what's in the market. Design the right solution for our customer needs. And lastly, we provide a, a financing and risk management solution where one doesn't exist necessarily. And the the last of those is particularly important. You know, we, we take pricing risk, we take development risk, we take uptime risk, and we take vehicle residual risk. So that's something that really resonates with our customers. What areas are you servicing right now? So we are, uh, building in, in, in Texas and California. Uh, it, it a little bit in that order. We're, we're about six to 12 months, uh, uh, behind in California relative to, uh, we're where we are in Texas. So, um, we currently have, uh, three stations in development in Houston and Dallas. Two additional stations will follow in San Antonio and Laredo. Uh, we have a $9 million grant from the state of Texas through a program called T Hive to deploy 28 fuel cell trucks. The first batch of those will be on the road this summer, and so those will be, uh, the first fuel cell trucks operating Texas. And we're doing something similar in California and we're starting in the south and we're working our way north. Nice. Just a kind of a dumb question. What kind of motor is, is in it? Is it an electric motor? Is it, yeah, so these are hydrogen fuel cell trucks today. Um, so the, the trucks that we're deploying in the immediate term are, are Hyundai, uh, ion, uh, hydrogen fuel cell trucks. So, uh, it's a fuel cell onboard. Um, the, the hydrogen, uh, effectively reacts with oxygen in the atmosphere through a chemical process and produces electricity. And that electricity, uh, powers an electric motor. So the, the actual, uh, the drivetrain is, is the same as a, as a battery electric truck. It's just the, the power comes from a different place. If, for those of you who aren't familiar with electric motors, damn, there's not a lot of maintenance. Uh, well, let's, there's no oil changes. There's no ready, there's no transmissions like. You know, and I'm, I'm speaking overall, less moving parts. Oh, exactly. Exactly. And so that's one of our value propositions. I also think, you know, drivers really love these trucks. They're quiet, they're easy to drive. They have two gears forward in reverse. Um, they're, you know, they're, they're technology enabled. They're comfortable. There's no fumes. You know, it, Hyundai just, uh, announced their gen two. Uh, hydrogen fuel cell model in at Ax Butland California last week. Deep pocketed OEMs are, are pouring billions of dollars into the, uh, development of, uh, uh, of these products into r and d. And so we're really excited about where the truck is going. No, I, I mean, I already said I drive electric. I am excited about anything that will help clean the air.'cause I really believe. Um, my generation has gone a long way to successfully destroying this earth. The waiter grow it. Um, well, nothing to be proud of. And we need solutions like trucks. We're not gonna get away from having trucks on the road anytime soon. Yeah. But we need a new solution that will contribute. And I forget you had the stat there, how much we, you know, we do contribute and it's a lot. Yeah, there's a way to fix that. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think, you know, I think sadly the urgency around it will increase over time. And I, I think I. You know, we need to do what we can, uh, now in advance of, you know, of, of that urgency to, to be able to scale and deploy very quickly. And I, I think, uh, you know, the, the most important, uh, thing for us is to, is to build critical mass. And that's what we're trying to do. Yes. Yeah. Well, how many hydrogen stations are around? Um, I mentioned that there's one not far from my home. Is it becoming somewhat popular? So, um, uh, the, the answer is a little bit different in, in California versus, uh, versus Texas. So in, uh, California had a, uh, sort of a state led development for light duty. Uh, they, they supported, uh, both Toyota and, and Hyundai, uh, light duty, uh, vehicles. So they have, uh, around 60 light duty stations. The, um, there are much fewer heavy duty stations there. There's a handful. Um, and, uh, uh, in, in Texas there are not, and so we, you know, our, our station that will be up and running in the next couple months will actually be the first, uh, highway fuel station. Okay. And in Texas, that's gonna be in Houston. And we'll, we'll be able to do both light duty and heavy duty at that location. Well there, cool. So it's, and as you say, you're gonna be up and running this summer, so this is something that is. Brand new that you're servicing Texas and California when you start basically now, me being poor at, uh, geography, could I use one of your trucks to go from Texas to San Diego? Not yet, is the answer. Not yet. So the way, the way we're, we're thinking about this, so, you know, we're, we're, we're starting in Texas for, for a number of reasons. Uh, you know, Texas is really. Uh, the epicenter of the, of the hydrogen economy in the us. Uh, it's about a third of all hydrogen production, uh, and about 75% of new projects are in the US Gulf. So you can, uh, effectively buy molecules at a, at a, at a very cheap, uh, price relative to other places in, in, in the us. Um, there's also a, a very, from a trucking perspective, there's a very, uh, interesting trucking ecosystem for the hydrogen application in Texas. So Texas has about 10% of all trucks in in the us A lot of those are in the Texas Triangle. So Texas Triangle is, is Houston, Dallas, San Antonio. And, uh, the nodes of the Texas Triangle are kind of 150 to 300 miles away from each other. And so for us, that's a very interesting self-contained. Ecosystem that, that facilitates duty cycles that are in our sweet spot in terms of length. Um, so that's what we're focused on first to, to be able to kind of create that interoperability, to cover the full triangle and then down to Laredo as well. Um, we're doing the same thing in California and then the plan, uh, after, you know, those regional ecosystems are, are, are fully covered to then link them up and, and there is a project. Ongoing with, uh, various, uh, research institutions to figure out what the best way to do that, to effectively go across High 10 and, uh, link up the California and Texas systems. I got, I gotta believe that's not far along or far away, but now when I was preparing for this, there was something on your website on the, uh, high Road Energy website that I found. Interesting. And I didn't understand, and this is something about fueling a zero loss fueling, did I say it right? That's right. Uh, okay. Uh, explain that. I didn't know that there was loss in fueling 'cause there isn't in diesel or gas. So there's two ways to build refueling stations. One is storing gaseous hydrogen on site. The other one is storing liquid hydrogen on site. So liquid hydrogen is, uh, a little bit more flexible, so you, you can, uh, move more volume around by truck. So you, you, you can effectively transport in a cost effecti manner over longer distances from production point to refueling point. And it's easier to deploy, uh, larger scale, uh, solutions. So, you know, multiple lanes. Kind of 2, 3, 4 ton a day throughput, uh, stations using liquid technology rather than, uh, gaseous technology. So liquid technology is still, uh, for refueling, um, is still, uh, being improved. And part of the efficiency metrics that, you know, that are evolving in, in the industry is about, uh, hydrogen boil off. So effectively liquid hydrogen is very, very cold. And keeping it very, very cold, uh, is a challenge. And when heat is introduced through various parts of the refueling operation, there is some level of boil out. And so obviously there's a cost to that. And so what we're uh, developing is, uh, uh, a station that has both kind of, uh, cutting edge technology for cryo pumps. Uh, we're partnering with a company called, uh, Bosch, Rex Roth. That just developed a, a two stage cryo pump that we're very excited about, we think will be, is gonna be a game changer for, um, uh, for efficiency, for liquid hydrogen refueling. And we will have actual refrigeration. We're partnering with a company called Gen A two, which has a refrigeration solution which keeps the hydrogen cold and can actually liquefy a small volume of, uh, hydrogen that has been gas fed. And so with, with those two solutions, we believe we can, we can get pretty close to zero. Uh. Zero boil off for that feature. That is interesting. In my mind, I'm thinking hydrogen sounds an awful lot like me filling up my propane barbecue tank. Yep. It's extreme. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The propane side of it. Yeah. Well it kinda, hydrogen tank kind of looks like a propane tank. Yeah. It's uh, isn't it? Okay. Like, 'cause I've never seen one of these trucks, um, yeah. Yet, and I've obviously never fueled one. So it's similar to fueling up a barbecue propane tank, is that it's actually similar to filling up a diesel truck. Uh, I mean, you, you, you, you pull up, you have a, the, the difference is the nozzle attaches and clips in, um, and so you don't, you, you have, you have, you know, full attachment to the, uh, uh, to the nozzle in the truck. And, and then the, uh, the, the refueling station does everything else for you. So, you know, it's all, it's all kind of an automated process. And, uh, you know, 15 minutes, you're back to a hundred percent and off you go. Um, so it, it, it, it, you know, it feels a lot, uh, uh, it, it feels fairly familiar when, when you think of a diesel operation. I think, you know, our intention is that, um, it, it fairly tuned. These will become, uh, kind of manless, uh, operations, which will be driver operated. Uh, we will have. Uh, an attendant in, in, in the early days to, to help with the education process and, and, and so forth. But, you know, it's very straightforward on, on the actual refueling operation. Cool. What else do we need to know about High Road Energy and the future of hydrogen trucks? You know, EE everyone has a role to play in, in the development of, of this ecosystem. Uh, we are working very hard to do as much of it, uh, as we can, but ultimately we don't run the trucks. Uh, so what what we need is, is leads to, uh, you know, take the time to learn more. Uh, and, and we're, we're very happy to be a resource, uh, to explain the capabilities of, of, of these vehicles, the optimal duty cycle on how, you know, fleets could potentially, uh, get their hands on, on, on how you can truck. Uh, but, you know, our, our, our call to action would be for, um, for shippers and carriers to. Uh, you know, dedicate, dedicate the time, uh, and, and the resources and be proactive and, uh, you know, begin to position their fleets for, for the future. Well, that, and, and shippers and receivers could start asking, what are you doing? How green is your fleet? Are you using any alternative fuel vehicles yet? Um, because they are, I don't wanna say cutting edge, because I think. That sounds like they're, they're new and mysterious hydrogen vehicles, I think have been around a number of years. Hydrogen trucks. I've been reading about them in the news for several years. Um, so they are around and I think it's proven and tested, and we're just now getting around to developing the infrastructure to support them. Absolutely. Uh, that's absolutely right. I look, I, I think ultimately. Uh, you know, I mentioned, I mentioned critical mass, uh, earlier on. I, I think the, the most important thing for, for us as, as a, as an industry is scale. Um, and, uh, you know, we, we need, uh, scale on low carbon hydrogen production. We need a, a, a repeatable and scalable or fueling solution. We need scale on truck manufacturing. I, I think it's also important to remember that we're earlier on the maturity curve. For hydrogen fuel trucks than we are for battery electric trucks. So, you know, we expect that, uh, the technology improvement will, uh, uh, will be at a faster rate. Um, but all these things are happening. Um, and, uh, so, you know, we, we just need, uh, you know, everybody to, uh, work together to make this happen. And, uh, you know, we, we, we, we see all of this happening and, and, and we see, you know, costs come down. Uh, at a, at a very, at a very fast rate as a result. Yeah. And for those of you who need more information, Dmitri's contact info is in the show notes down below, so please reach out. Dmitri, last word. What, what haven't you said that you wanted to get out there? I think use this as a resource that, that, that's what I would say, you know, use this as a resource to learn more. We're, we're happy to take the time, even if it's just a. Information gathering, uh, exercise. We're, we're, we're very happy to engage because, you know, education about what we do and, and about, uh, uh, the vehicle and, and the ecosystem is, uh, absolutely critical to, to our business. And so, uh, please reach out and, uh, and, and, uh, we hope to hear from you. And if you're based in Texas, you should be reaching out. And if you're in Southern California, you probably should be reaching out, as they say. But Dimitri. Thanks so much for coming onto the show. Yes, thank you, Dmitri. Thank you both. Dmitri, thanks so much for coming onto the show this week. Really appreciate it. And our viewers and subscribers, I appreciate you and if you enjoyed the show, please leave us a, like, give us a click and share the word. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week on the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. We're outta here.