EP141: Stepping Out From Behind Your Work with Photographer Michele Mateus

As working creatives, giving our audience, clients and supporters the opportunity to connect with us on a deeper level is so important to building a healthy business. But equally important, as women, we need to get past our fear of taking up space and instead, embrace being seen. Intimate portrait and personal branding photographer Michele Matues joins Melissa in this episode to share her journey as a photographer who empowers women and  to show us how much getting out from behind our work and in front of the camera can mean to our business... and to ourselves.

This episode is brought to you by Fine Lime Designs Illustrations

This is a great episodes for creatives who:

• struggle with putting themselves in front of the camera to promote their business
• prefer to take a backseat to the work they create
• need some DIY tips to get more comfortable in front of the camera and take their own photos and videos
• would like to hire a photographer but aren't sure where to start
• would like to have professional photos done but are intimidated by the process

For a summary of this episode and all the links mentioned please visit:
Episode 141: Stepping Out From Behind Your Work with Michele Mateus

You can find Michele's intimate portrait photography at  www.mateusstudios.com and her personal branding work at www.michelemateusphotography.com. Follow her on Instagram  @mateusstudios or @mateuscoaching.

You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.

Transcript

Melissa Hartfiel: 0:00

This week's episode of the And She Looked Up podcast is brought to you by Fine Lime Illustrations. If you love quirky, colorful art transformed into fun handmade stationery items pretty much guaranteed to brighten somebody's day that's just what you'll find in my new online shop at finelimeillustrations. com. That's fine, as in I'm fine lime, as in the fruit illustrations dot com. Browse the entire collection or sign up for my email list to see some behind the scenes peeks into my studio. You'll also get first notice of new product launches and subscriber only sales, and as an added little bonus, you'll also receive a free coloring sheet to help you relax and de-stress from your day. Now on with the show.

Melissa Hartfiel: 0:58

Welcome to the And She Looked Up podcast. Each week, we sit down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. I'm your host, Melissa Hartfiel, and after leaving a 20 year career in corporate retail, I've been happily self-employed for 12 years. I'm a graphic designer, an illustrator and a multi-six figure a year entrepreneur in the digital content space. This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the And She Looked Up podcast. As always, I am your host, Melissa, and this week my guest is photographer Michele Mateus, and we are going to be talking about not just Michele's journey as a creative professional, but also why it's so important for us, as creatives, to step into the camera frame and show the world the creator behind the work, so I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to the show, Michele.

Michele Mateus: 2:13

Aw, thanks for having me. I smiled so big when you said that I just love this topic so much.

Melissa Hartfiel: 2:17

I am really looking forward to this and we were just talking before we came on air but one of the perks of being a podcast host and producer is that occasionally I get to indulge in things that I really want to talk about, and every season I usually have one or two themes that sort of run underneath all the episodes. I don't usually announce them, but this year I thought I would mention one of them, and that is this idea that, as working creatives and as women, we have a rather hard time allowing ourselves to show up as our true selves, and I think there's a whole bunch of reasons for that everything from mindset and fear to age, to social conditioning lots of reasons but it's one of the things that I really wanted to get into. So when Michele suggested this as a topic for this episode, I was all over it and I am really looking forward to diving into it. But before we do that, for those of you who may not be familiar with Michele, let's just give you a brief introduction into who she is.

Melissa Hartfiel: 3:25

She is an award-winning photographer, a mother, a woman living with multiple sclerosis, a coach and an unstoppable bad ass. She's an introverted extrovert and an empathetic Pisces to the T. She loves bright lipstick F words. So for those of you listening, be prepared. And karaoke, connecting folks to their essential feminine energy, is what she lives for and she is dedicated to raising vibes, smashing beauty standards and starting fires through her work, and I love that we should all be starting a few more fires through our work. So, Michele, the first question I ask everyone who comes on the show is did you feel like you were creative as a kid growing up?

Michele Mateus: 4:13

No, oh, okay, this is my favorite question.

Melissa Hartfiel: 4:15

I always have a bet with myself.

Michele Mateus: 4:17

I didn't. I mean, yeah, I no, I didn't feel creative. I, I don't think it was encouraged. It wasn't discouraged in my home, you know. I know that sometimes it can be discouraged, like art isn't taken seriously. But I, I, my son right now he's eight years old or nine years old. He's in musical theater camp right this week and I remember as a kid I so desperately wanted to do things like that. I also grew up in a very small community where I don't even know if there was musical theater camp. But I have immigrant parents.

Michele Mateus: 4:51

I immigrated from Brazil when I was three and my parents, you know, were very low income growing up and my dad was all about sport. I, he really had this idea that like sport was your ticket to ride, you know. So I played a lot of soccer as a kid. I always say that when I was 16, I broke my ankle in a soccer game. It was the best day of my life because while I loved the community aspect of soccer, I just didn't like playing soccer, even though I was good at it. So I think I always wanted to try things and part of the reason was access Probably it wasn't even around financial access and therefore I didn't even explore it on my own because I was so focused on, you know, academics and sport, which was not my favorite thing. Yeah, so no, I don't think I ever saw myself as a creative.

Melissa Hartfiel: 5:41

It's such an interesting question because I always have a little bit with myself as to how each guest is going to answer. I lost today. But it's always interesting to see how people view it as they grew up. But as somebody who didn't particularly feel creative or wasn't brought up in that kind of environment, how did you? How did you find your way to photography?

Michele Mateus: 6:11

Well, it's interesting, even as like as I'm listening to you and I'm, yeah, reflecting on what I just said like my dad had a dark room in our house growing up as a kid and I still have those photos that he would create. So it's funny that that wasn't available to us or encouraged to us like to be creatives, because my dad did do that kind of stuff. Now I don't have the best relationship with him now, but you know, I suspect that that did plant a seed, even though I didn't know, and I remember. I do remember as a kid going in the dark room which was our laundry room and, you know, putting the paper in, if anyone's ever done film photography and the magic of putting the paper in and in those liquids like please don't touch your eyes with your hands.

Michele Mateus: 6:52

You might burn yourself and seeing that magic and hanging up the prints and, like I said, I still have them. So I suspect there was that element of like, ok, the seed was planted, you know. And then through high school, maybe it was a bit more academic, but I was really involved in the yearbook. I was actually a photographer for a yearbook, so I don't know how did I even forget that, just thinking about it now. Actually so, but I don't know if I ever identified as a creative. You know, it was more like and for a long time I wanted to be a journalist and again, I didn't identify that as being creative. I identified that as like wanting to tell stories and I somehow didn't even reflecting on that now. I didn't think of it as creative, but more academic, like more like.

Michele Mateus: 7:33

I mean, I get in there and I'm going to tell the story because I was such a and I still am a little social justice warrior, so I just wanted to, you know, tell all the truths and bring down the patriarchy kind of thing, even at a young age. So I suspect with that over time then I started to connect with my creativity through photography because I always had a camera in my hand, but again it was more like a documenting type of thing, not a. I'm a creative. I also think it's a big word to own, especially when calling yourself an artist. So when my mom passed away she passed away from breast cancer it was like very fast and furious. She died within nine months and I had always been curious about photography and wanting to take courses. So I took the little bit of inheritance that I had from her, which wasn't very much, and I bought my first camera, which is a Canon Rebel. It was the first year it came out. Digital camera was a big deal, it was a big deal.

Michele Mateus: 8:31

Yeah, Before that I had a film camera and I actually still have that film camera. So it's kind of funny, as I'm thinking, I'm like God, I've always had cameras, but I still didn't identify as a creative. Then I started taking courses and for me my journey into photography really was about therapy. It was because I have always been seen as such an extrovert and in many ways I am but I started to also recognize like I'm actually an introverted extrovert. I actually like being by myself. I was grieving, and so for me the camera was just a friend. I walked around, I love to travel, I lived pretty close to downtown Vancouver and I love the contrast of brokenness with beauty. So I would walk around really on a sketchy area sometimes with my camera and just take pictures of random things and I was always just looking, and so it became for me like this art of really seeing and looking and being present with myself and my feelings. And then it kind of grew from there, taking more courses. Then I went to Emily Carr and did design. Again, I don't think I still saw myself as a creative, because I still saw myself as being, I don't know, wanting a skill. You know, because I always worked in nonprofits before I did community development. For about 20 years I went back to school for design to enhance what I was doing in my other work and then, when I became a photographer and had my business, it took me about five years before I could honestly say confidently like I'm an artist.

Michele Mateus: 10:03

I also worked in the arts, even though I wasn't an artist. I was more an administration and community development type of work, and there's a lot of like I don't know the Arts. Art is an interesting place. It can be very exclusive in and of itself, you know. So it's funny that we want to invite people into the arts but we also have exclusive language and as kind of an outsider, because I was more of an administrator, I was like, hmm, okay, so I felt like, once I started this business, how do I own this? Like what am I? And anyway, I just started to call myself an artist and a creative and it started to feel really good because we can identify that in so many ways, you know. So, yeah, it's been a kind of a journey to even think about it like that versus being like I have a skill set.

Melissa Hartfiel: 10:49

Yes, it's so interesting how people view that word creative, you know and how they either identify with it or they don't, or they're not sure, or they don't feel confident calling themselves an artist. That's a big one that you mentioned there, that I think a lot of us struggle with. So, yeah, how did you go from starting out as a photographer? We actually haven't mentioned the fact that you are an intimate portrait photographer. You do some boudoir work, but you also. A lot of what you do is about allowing women to show who they are, show their strength, show their power. How did you fall into that line of photography?

Michele Mateus: 11:31

Yeah, well, I started my photography journey, as I said, just kind of walking around the streets taking. I loved street photography Cartier Besson, like, who is like the father of street photography I just loved all that work and was just consuming all of that. You know, the library books were my friend. And then I was like, oh, I can't, I can't get paid to do this. Are you crazy, what?

Michele Mateus: 11:54

And then I decided that I would try because I had a design business.

Michele Mateus: 11:59

I had a full time job, I worked for the city of Vancouver, but I also had a design business as a little bit of a side hustle, because I went to my car to add the skill set, went back to the same work I was doing and thought I would dabble in seeing if I could get more creative on my side.

Michele Mateus: 12:14

And then people started asking me like, hey, you're designing my annual report, can you also take our photos? And I was like, because I had a blog, but it was like a travel blog with all my photos, and it was just back in the blog days when people were doing lots of that kind of you know, using Flickr, Flickr, yes, yeah. So I was really active doing that, but again, it was more travel and street photography, and then I thought, okay, well, maybe I'll try, because people would ask. They knew that that was my hobby, and so it kind of started a bit that way and I started doing brand photography before knowing it was a thing, and then I got brown photography brand brand photography yeah, or like personal brand photography Brand photography Got it, sorry yeah brand, that's okay.

Michele Mateus: 12:57

And then I then I kind of got sucked into weddings because I was curious about just working in those environments. I, when I worked for the city, I had a job where we ran large scale community events, so events didn't scare me weddings actually, when people know I shot weddings, they'd be like like what was that? And I was like it's fine, like I liked it. I did for five years I shot like a lot of weddings and it was kind of through that process, like I was shooting brand, like personal brand photography. I was shooting weddings. I did families and different things like that.

Michele Mateus: 13:32

But because of my MS, multiple sclerosis, I it's hard on my body to carry all my stuff everywhere I go and I was exhausted and I just started to really want like reflect on like what was my purpose, what was my intention? And I just kept coming back to oh, I just looked over on the wall and I have a picture of my mom right there. I just kept coming back to like thinking about why did I originally start really connecting with my camera, which was through my mom and her passing, and then thinking about her life. And my father was not. I mean, I'm sure he did the best with what he could, but he wasn't the most kind person to her and there's definitely all kinds of trauma in my background and I really started to feel like a. I wish I had a beautiful portrait of her.

Michele Mateus: 14:24

You know, I have some crappy like two or three that I actually really like. So I really wish that I had that. So I wanted to give that to people. And then I really wished that I could offer something to people so that they could connect with their beauty, with their strength, that they have so much life and joy within them even when they're living under these situations. That may not be ideal, and that's where I started to find Boudoir, and even Boudoir that term didn't really align with me, but I went with it. And there's so many different ways you can be a Boudoir photographer. There's so many different styles, which is why I often say that I do intimate portraiture so nobody Googles that. So you kind of like roll with the status quo. But I think it was like really that desire of wishing to give others what I wish I could have given her.

Melissa Hartfiel: 15:21

Yeah, that is when I, when I was prepping for this interview, I kept going back to something I read online I can't remember if it was in a Facebook group or something where a young man who had lost his mom and she she hadn't she wasn't in any of the family photos because she was always worried about her weight and he's like you know, I just wish I had a photo of her and he's, and I don't remember where the conversation came from, but I always wonder how many of us try to avoid the camera because there's some aspect of ourselves that we're not comfortable with and we don't realize the people who love us how much they just wish they had that photo or a couple of photos, totally so.

Michele Mateus: 16:09

I used to make a lot of people cry. I still make a lot of people cry. It's a thing Just like because I'm very open and vulnerable and honest. But I would say like so I used to do family photos and even when I used to shoot weddings, I would tell people that were the mothers, like, get in the frame, get in the frame. And I would sometimes have to stop and be like listen, somebody's going to look for these photos one day. And I know, because I'm not somebody, yeah, yeah, and it wasn't, you know, to create that guilt or shame. It was just like nobody cares. Nobody cares, like right.

Melissa Hartfiel: 16:47

I love you, do not care.

Michele Mateus: 16:49

Nobody cares. I mean, it's so fascinating that we photograph our children endlessly, and ourselves with our children when they're little babies, right, and then also in its steps, and so why did we think that the children were worthy of being in the photos? But as they got older, it even stops for them and then we stopped being with them and, to be honest, my baby photos are fine, but I would rather have the photos of my mom and I, or family, like older, like where those memories are more fresh in my mind, you know, or there was a special occasion where we could connect. And, yeah, it's a thing where people just don't realize that and, unfortunately, like it's inevitable that we are going to pass and people are going to want to remember us. So why not leave this proud legacy rather than hiding, you know?

Melissa Hartfiel: 17:40

Yes, so for those of you listening, michelle did an interview on CBC. I think it was the local CBC here in Vancouver.

Melissa Hartfiel: 17:47

Yeah it was with Gloria Macarenco and it's on your website. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. But one of the things you mentioned in that interview was this 70 year old woman who had been a professional dancer, I think, and how she had no record of herself as a dancer, and that just made me cry when I heard that. It was just like that. It's just so wow, I just and I don't think we think of it that way, especially when we're younger. I think as we get older, it becomes something that sits with us a little bit more. But yeah, I have to imagine that. So I worked a bit as a photographer prior to going back into design and I would rather shoot things than people.

Michele Mateus: 18:41

There's a lot of people in that camp, so don't worry.

Melissa Hartfiel: 18:46

I mainly did food and I also did some street photography. I love doing graffiti and things like that, but I have to think from a psychological standpoint, that the type of photography you do has to be, in some ways, one of the hardest forms of photography, but also it is probably one of the most rewarding, because I'm going to guess that even just picking up the phone or emailing you and asking to make this appointment to come for this kind of shoot has got to be something that a lot of people sit on for a very long time before they get up the courage to even do that, let alone show up at your door prepared to. So what is that like for you? Like in terms of what you have to, what your work, the kind of environment that you're working with and how you bring to life these women who come to work with you?

Michele Mateus: 19:43

Yeah, it's a great question, I think, because I worked in community development for so long. That created such an amazing foundation for how I am as a photographer and how I am as an artist. And for me my business is not transactional and I'm very wholehearted about that and there's nothing wrong with wanting to have a business that's transactional and you make good money and whatever. But you know, when I first graduated university, my first job so I have an undergrad in social justice and feminist theory Surprise my first job was in a women's shelter in the UK and I worked there for a couple years. I worked for women's aid and it was I.

Michele Mateus: 20:25

I've seen some stuff, I've heard some stories not only there but in my own life, in my own home, and so I think that by using those experiences and the knowledge that I gained in holding space for people there and how we supported people I mean I was a support worker that is all kind of informed how I am as a photographer, you know, because I didn't just come into this as a business.

Michele Mateus: 20:51

I really came into it as like wanting to be that spaceholder and that witness of people, just the same way I was in those jobs. So now I just happen to have a camera in my hand, so a big part of that and you're right, like a lot of people will reach out, they will ghost us because they probably get cold feet or whatever. And I think for me, it's that whole showing up myself, showing up as much as I can online to create that safety, the way that I write my email, so way that my website is written. Now I know that we say that people are busy and they don't take time to read things, but I actually find it really interesting that people that do book me they'll be like oh, I saw on your website that I can insert whatever about myself and I'm like Wow you read it?

Michele Mateus: 21:38

Yay, because I think, you know, for me it's about connecting with that deeper message.

Michele Mateus: 21:43

Those are the people I also want to serve, and so I've really tried to do that a lot with that communication piece, because it is stressful, it is nerve breaking and, I think, because of the way that I set up how I shoot people and my intention, I want to attract people with a similar intention. You know, like, hey, I love sexy photos, I'll take those all day, every day, but I also love depth. You know, I also love creating a story and that intention and that's what I'm really inviting people to do, which, by the way, is terrifying, you know, right. So I think that everything that I put out there online, I also have a really active newsletter and even in that newsletter, I try not to just be like because she, because she, by my son, says you know, I try and just share more of myself and my own stories, the messy people, all of it, I think for me I don't know, but I feel like that's part of that invitation that people will feel safe here.

Melissa Hartfiel: 22:45

I think that's so important and it wasn't really, in sort of, where we were going to go. But this is something that, as business owners because most of the people listening here we're all creatives and we all create for a living, but we're also all business owners and there is something really important about understanding who your potential customer is and what they need to feel connected to you so they make the purchase book, the shoot, do the thing that we want them ultimately to do. And so, on the one hand, you said your business isn't transactional, and I think most of us, as creatives, don't feel, or don't want to feel, like our businesses are transactional, but at the end of the day, we also need to earn a living. So it's this kind of tension, right? Yes, absolutely, and Money Minds said all of that. We could talk about that for hours, but so it is.

Melissa Hartfiel: 23:41

You said sometimes you're surprised that people read what's on your website.

Melissa Hartfiel: 23:45

And yet I'm not surprised because I think if you're going to work with somebody who's going to take these intimate photos of you, there's got to be a huge trust factor there, like you're not just going to pick the first person who comes up on Google, right, you're going to go through those websites and make sure that this is somebody who you feel safe with before you sign up to do a shoot.

Melissa Hartfiel: 24:09

So I think sometimes we don't always remember how important making that connection is, and I would think, with what you do, it's probably massively important. So, yeah, but once you get them in your studio, tell us a little bit about how it works, because I imagine it's got to be pretty incredible watching the transformation. I've looked through your portfolio. If you are listening, I really encourage you to go look through Michelle's work on her website, because the images are very striking and, yes, some of them are sexy, but a lot of them are just about strength and freedom and all these other things that we kind of don't always allow ourselves to feel. So, yeah, what's it like bringing them into the studio and then seeing that transformation happen?

Michele Mateus: 24:59

Yeah, I love that you just said freedom, because that's like one of my favorite things to try and bring out of people that sense of freedom.

Melissa Hartfiel: 25:07

It comes across in your work.

Michele Mateus: 25:11

Thank you, that means a lot. So, first of all, my studio is in my home and it's not in a busy downtown studio and for a money mindset. For a long time I was like, oh, it's my home. It's like messy when you walk through my living room and you have to walk by Legoland to get to my studio, and how embarrassing. And so I really had to overcome that because at the end of the day, it's not about that, it's about what's in this space and I have a small space, it's 300 square feet and I make magic in here and they get to walk through there. They have to walk through my kitchen. There might even be a sink full of dishes from the night before and I always make little jokes about that. And I would say 90% of my clients are mothers, so they understand. And if they're not mothers, they're busy people. So they're like oh, who cares? I'll be like, I'll make jokes, I use humor a lot. And then they come in here and it's totally a contrast. There's not a lot of stuff in here, it's very minimalist. If I had my dream home, this is what it would look like without all the Lego and all the things, and so they instantly feel relaxed.

Michele Mateus: 26:13

I usually have some like I love jazz, so I usually have some kind of like French coffee house jazz music playing. I always have a candle going. I have a sign with their name on it to welcome them. I have a gift, so like right away it's kind of like welcome and everybody loves the sign with their name on it. They take a selfie with it or they'll do a little Instagram video and it's just right away that like warm, welcoming feeling in the bathroom that they get to use. There's a candle in there.

Michele Mateus: 26:39

I put out toiletries that have them in hygiene products, like I've kind of thought about all those little things to just make them feel like, okay, I belong here, I'm welcome here. We have hair and makeup that sets up here. The hair and makeup artists that I work with are very friendly and kind and gentle as well, and we just try and make it just easy going. I offer them something to eat, drink. I always buy fresh fruit. I buy like those little containers from Safeway that are pre-packaged and then I give it to them because I know they didn't eat breakfast, even though I told them to, so I bring that out.

Michele Mateus: 27:13

I have a tray of like granola bars and all kinds of different things, so just like, take a load off, sit down. And a lot of times people are like, like I can see it in their body language because I'm pretty easy going. I'm just like it's fine, like I can see that you're nervous, tell me how you're feeling today and you know, sometimes the waterworks even just come out of that, like what it took for them to get there. It's pretty amazing how open people will be and I think that's a reflection of how open I've been with them as well. I always set an intention with my clients. I use like affirmation cards and get them to pull a card. So right away it's just like really relaxing and fun. And the affirmation cards that I use they're called the Super Attractor Deck by Gabrielle Bernstein.

Michele Mateus: 28:02

I have them right here and I like these because they're not too woo-woo although I do like the woo-woo and but they're they're kind of neutral enough that they're just fun and it's all about attracting amazing energy into your life. And actually one month four women pulled the same card. So I thought that was interesting, interesting. So I think all those little touches you know, even down to how I've designed my space to just be having different textures, it's very neutral in here. I like white, everything to be neutral. But it is a small space and so it can quickly feel crowded with their staff and my equipment and everything. But I think just having those kind of textures and that warmth and the candle going and the coffee going, you know it just creates that sense of home. So right away I feel like they just are able to melt a little bit into their chairs or getting their hair and makeup done Do you think hair and makeup helps the calming process?

Melissa Hartfiel: 28:57

Because? There's something about having somebody you know, 100% your hair and it's you know like going to the salon right, totally yeah.

Michele Mateus: 29:04

I've had people ask me in the past like do can I do my own hair and makeup? And I'm like I mean you can, but it's going to be included regardless, so why?

Melissa Hartfiel: 29:14

not take advantage?

Michele Mateus: 29:16

I've learned from you, learn from your mistakes, and a lot of people want to do their own hair and makeup, probably because they were bridesmaid once and they the hair and makeup artist did some crazy job on them that they didn't like, or or they, you know, they're still have PTSD from their prom or something I don't know Like. I feel like everyone has had that experience. They went to Sephora and they put too much on them and I like my style of photography is really like effortless and chic. I don't love overly done, unless you want to like. If you want to do that, sure, let's go for it, but the whole the more. The big reason for me is that I just want them to relax and when they sit in that chair it gives them that time to be taken care of.

Michele Mateus: 29:54

And you know women find it hard to receive, and so it is about receiving that care.

Michele Mateus: 30:01

It's not so much. I photograph people without hair and makeup on my own when I do creative shoots, because I also love really raw imagery. So I don't feel I need them to have hair and makeup to create beautiful, powerful images, but it's more about setting that, that tone, you know. And yeah, you asked about the transformations. I mean at the end of their photo shoot. They're already I would say 99.9% of my clients are already like that was amazing. I feel amazing. I feel a million bucks.

Michele Mateus: 30:32

I haven't even seen the photos, because you know why they have been seen. They have been allowed to be themselves, without shame or judgment. We're having fun, the music is bumping or sometimes it's chill. I've done. I've done photo shoots to anything between classical music to country. I don't even like country, but I'll listen to it if you like it, to like hip hop, to whatever, like you name it, we'll. We'll do it because I want to activate all your senses, and so often we are not activating all our senses, and that, to me, is what sensual living is really is like.

Michele Mateus: 31:07

How are we experiencing the world? So you know, I've got the sense going, I've got the sounds going, and they're like on cloud nine. They're like, oh my gosh, like sign me up, when can we do that again? Even though they were so nervous, not only about coming and being in front of a camera, but spending the money on themselves, investing the time in themselves. Right, the time is such a big thing, more than the money often right, and just like allowing themselves to be truly seen. But by the end they're like when? When can I come back? So that's like right, a win. And then you know I will say that a huge percentage of my clients, when they do come back and I walk through the photos with them, we look at them together, we go through them one by one, most of my clients cry.

Melissa Hartfiel: 31:53

Yeah, I can, I can see that.

Michele Mateus: 31:56

It's got to be a bit of a release to see those photos like yeah, yeah, they cry, they shriek, they're like you know, and then, and even though they'll shriek and get excited, but then the tears will often follow, because they're often like and I've said this so many times a sentence that I've heard many, many times is I'm still in there, yeah, or a variation of that yeah, like, like I'm still in there, I still got it. What? Because they're so. I think we become so disconnected, so disembodied. We're just doing, acting from our head, doing for everyone else and to see yourself reflected back at you. I mean, I don't manipulate my photos so other than you know, converting to black and white and doing you know basic editing yeah, of course, but I'm not nipping, tucking or that's totally against my ethics.

Michele Mateus: 32:52

So to see yourself reflected back at you without being nipped intact and photoshopped like nobody's business, it's pretty powerful because it's like, wow, someone sees me like this, yeah, and I haven't seen myself like that in a long time. I need to allow myself to feel that way.

Melissa Hartfiel: 33:12

What is it that that, I guess, gets people to pull the trigger to want to do a shoot like this? Like is there? Is there an underlying theme? Is it something that's happened to them in their life? Or like what? What makes them think like? This is something I think I need to do. Do you have a sense?

Michele Mateus: 33:32

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I get a lot of people who are celebrating milestone birthdays. So most of my most of my clients are between the ages of 40 and 50, I'd say, and that I think my oldest client was 72. So, you know, I do get a lot of women who they're changing job, career, they recently divorced that's another one and it's interesting, a lot of my clients are single moms, like a lot of them, where they've put people in front of them for so long and they're just kind of coming out of that fog and they're like fuck it, I deserve to be celebrated and I connect with my sensuality for me and I wanted to find that for myself. You know, like they're just, you know, and I often hear too, like, what was I worried about in my 20s and my 30s? I hear that so often. Like, why was I so worried in my 20s and my 30s? I hear that so often.

Michele Mateus: 34:28

I wasted so much time worrying in my 20s and my 30s Right I hear that so often and so I just like meet them with, like just kindness. I'm like, okay, that's okay, we all have done that. You're here now, but I really I think that often it's a milestone. Sometimes people want to give a gift to their partner which I don't market my business like that it's really common in the Boudoir industry to market. You know, do this for your partner and I'm like, who cares about your partner? Do this for yourself. You may be not even like, like I said, a lot of single mom clients that don't even have partners. You don't need a partner to feel good about yourself. You don't need a reason, you know. You just need a purpose.

Melissa Hartfiel: 35:16

Yeah, yes, so interesting. I was really looking forward to talking about all that because it is fascinating to me what makes people want to do that. And I, you know, I turned 50 last year and so all my friends are at that. We're all at that stage where we're hitting that half century milestone.

Melissa Hartfiel: 35:35

And it's like I don't have kids, but most of my friends have kids and they're all getting to that age where I think the youngest is of my close friends is probably grade 12. So they're, you know, university kind of there, and all of a sudden they're kind of coming out of the fog Fog is not really the great word to use for it, because it's not like they didn't enjoy being a mom or anything like that.

Melissa Hartfiel: 35:58

But it's just like the mist maybe that's a better word, you know. It's just suddenly realizing like, oh, oh, okay, there's time for me now. Like, what do I do with this? Like who you know, who am I? What do I want to do? Like you know, I have this free time that I didn't have before.

Melissa Hartfiel: 36:18

I maybe don't want to have the career that I always had, because it paid the bills really well, and now I have a little more freedom, and so it's all about kind of figuring out what's the next half century going to be like, and so I could see where doing something like this would be really appealing to a lot of them, just as sort of that marker milestone, like you said, of like, and when you said, you know, you know, a lot of your clients say, oh, like, I'm still in there.

Melissa Hartfiel: 36:49

I think when you sort of hit that point where your kids are leaving home and you have more time to think, I think when you're a mom you don't always have the time to just think about these things, but all of a sudden they have this time to think and it's like yeah, who am I? You know like, am I still me, or is there somebody else in there. That needs to come out. So yeah, really interesting. I wanted to go back to the 70 year old woman who was a dancer who had no visual record of herself, and I think in this era of social media you know Instagram selfies and being on TikTok and doing all those things it's kind of hard for us to imagine the idea that we wouldn't have pictures of ourselves doing what we do, and I suspect that's a lot more common than we care to admit. Like, do you find that at all in the work that you do.

Michele Mateus: 37:45

Well, I mean, I find that with myself even I'm a photographer who is lucky to have a lot of photographer friends that I can do fun, play dates with, and I mean I have hired photographers to take my photos, you know, and I do do play dates. But yes, I think that we're so often just in the doing, we're not in the being. You know, we're not allowing ourselves to feel that important, that unworthy of being documented, so we're not saying I mean, okay, I'll think about it. Even when I had my son birth, photography wasn't really a big thing, it was kind of I didn't really know about it. And I remember even having my phone and my husband had I'm like, give us, get a phone, give the phone to the doula. I had a doula and and she was like what? And I'm like, you know, in that moment I was like I would love a photo of me like having my baby. It took me four years and three miscarriages to get pregnant. So it's like, okay, I would love this moment and I mean, she's not the heck to do, and you know, I think that's how we often are in life or like, oh, someone should take a photo of this thing that's happening, that's important right now and we just forget, and I think that's what happened in her case.

Michele Mateus: 38:53

You know she had this one photo of younger. It was on her while I went to her house, so I saw it. And then another one that she was like I don't really like. It was very jazz hands, you know, staged right, and she's a really great example of she wore, you know, black t-shirt and black leggings, like it wasn't Boudoir, and this is why I prefer that intimate portrait idea. But it's very intimate to come and allow yourself to be seen and witnessed. You know, just even in that self and I think that there's so many people like her that are just moving through doing their thing, being really kick ass at it and just not having the opera, because, you know, even if there is an event photographer, that doesn't mean you get those photos.

Melissa Hartfiel: 39:34

No.

Michele Mateus: 39:35

Right, that doesn't mean they're yours.

Melissa Hartfiel: 39:37

No.

Michele Mateus: 39:38

And they're good quality enough to print and proudly put onto your wall. So she was 70. She wanted to leave a legacy. Now she doesn't have any grandchildren. She's hoping for them, but not sure if that's ever going to happen. She was saying so, you know, for her she was really thinking about that at that stage in her life, and you're right, I think. As we get older we start to think about like, oh, and she's an artist, right, she's a creative, she's dancer.

Melissa Hartfiel: 40:03

Yeah, visual performer. Yeah, like yeah, there's no visual record of that and it's it's. I'm really into like family genealogy and stuff.

Michele Mateus: 40:15

Okay, yeah.

Melissa Hartfiel: 40:17

So it's something that I do a lot as a hobby in the winters kind of thing, and when I stumble on a photograph that I haven't seen before, it's like gold.

Michele Mateus: 40:27

I know me too. Who are these people?

Melissa Hartfiel: 40:29

Yeah, Do you know the first time I saw a picture of my great grandparents who died during the Holocaust. So I never met them, although they were young enough that I certainly should have met them. But you know, I saw their wedding photo and it was like 19, 1920, 1918, sort of in that that, that era, and I, my great grandmother, looked exactly like me, like I'd never seen anyone in my family who, like I'd see resemblances and stuff but never seen somebody who was like me, reflected and just being able to see that was so incredible and and and then, weirdly, my great grandfather looked like my brother when he was younger.

Melissa Hartfiel: 41:14

So it was a little that was a little weird, but but it was like wow, like you know, and and so, even though she might not have grandchildren like you just you never know who the person is that's going to find those photos and be like oh, wow.

Michele Mateus: 41:27

That's the thing, yeah, and and you know what another thing is too, that I've always thought if I'm a total serial academic, if I ever went back to school and did like a masters which I was part way through a masters and I quit to actually really lean into this business. But one thing I'd love to research is the impact of photos on adults. So they've done research with children and they've psychologists have research how hanging photos up in the family home make children feel and and yeah, so there's really if you can probably Google it there's really interesting research around that that it creates a sense of belonging, it creates a sense of importance and you know, like when their friends come over, they're like look at this funny photo of me on the wall or whatever, and the research around that is really fascinating to read. And I I don't think it stops at children, you know it's.

Michele Mateus: 42:20

We go to art galleries. We admire art up on the walls of other people. We love to find these photos of other people. Imagine what kind of world that would be if we proudly hung up photos of ourselves and showed our children. So I have photos in my home of me and Mike just me and my husband on the wall of few places and my son loves it. It's like, yeah, mom and dad, my fight sometimes will look at us, or so cute too. We love each other, we really do, you know. I think it's just creates that sense of confidence and that they can be like, yeah, look at mom up here on the wall, or dad or brother or sister, or all of us together. We all have value, we, we all can like, take up more space and we all deserve to be seen.

Michele Mateus: 43:03

You know, I think it sends such a huge, loud message and it's really fascinating that they say that with children there's also like research around, when people with Alzheimer's see photos and like they research. You know, oh my gosh, I'm so terrible at remembering these kind of things, but the brainwaves of like same with music, like how it triggers right and like they start responding. So photos are important, history is important. And back to your digital comment. It's so interesting. I saw this workshop once. I attended a workshop once and it was by the woman at UBC who's in the archive, does archiving there, and she was saying that even though we are creating more and more content by the minute, we are having less and less archives for historical reasons and that's sad.

Michele Mateus: 43:56

It is not valuing right, we're not valuing the print, the book, the whatever. And here's the thing like when I first started photography, my wedding photos were on a CD ROM and there's no photos on there. They disappeared, the data disappeared, poof gone by. Then we moved to USB. Well, new computers don't even have USBs on them. Now we're moving to the cloud. Well, you don't own the cloud, but a photograph on your wall you own forever.

Melissa Hartfiel: 44:20

Yeah, and it will change. Yeah, how many millions, billions, trillions of photos are forgotten about because they're on a cloud storage?

Michele Mateus: 44:30

Digital clutter.

Melissa Hartfiel: 44:31

Yeah, they're just this, just noise, because there's just so many of them and you get a new computer and you don't bother moving them over or whatever.

Michele Mateus: 44:39

Your hard drive dies like that. That happened yeah absolutely so.

Melissa Hartfiel: 44:42

Yeah, printing. Printing is so important and I just yeah, just thinking about what we were just saying there is just made me think of a whole bunch of stuff with my family and it's just so fascinating to me. All of this is like my dad had a traumatic brain injury about 13 years ago, so he has no short term memory and so for him, photos of anything of the past he loves. A friend of mine just published a book. She's a former guest on the show Gabby Payton. She wrote a book called when we Ate and it's all about landmark Canadian restaurants from coast to coast, and my dad was in the Air Force so he has been stationed all across Canada in very remote spots very often because he was a radar tech and he has a hard time concentrating on anything because of his brain injury. And I showed him the book when it arrived and it's full of photos from the 50s and 60s and 70s of all these restaurants, and he sat there and he read it from cover to cover.

Michele Mateus: 45:45

And he was just so absorbed in the photos.

Melissa Hartfiel: 45:47

And I told Gabby and she she was just like wow. And I said I haven't seen him pick up a book in years and yet the photos just drew him in and so like, that's how powerful it is Right.

Michele Mateus: 46:03

Yeah, and I think, you know, if we go back to my client, the 70 year old, she wasn't looking for digital photos. You know, I think that some, especially in younger generations, and sometimes I get it not very often, because I am very clear that I'm an artist and I'm creating for you to enjoy art, which is, to me, not a digital file, that's just data, that's not art. I mean, I guess it can be art, but I want it to be more visceral. You know, yes, and she, she didn't want that, she wasn't motivated by that, she wanted those prints for that intention.

Michele Mateus: 46:36

Yeah, and I think that there is kind of a. There was a stage, I think, in photography for a while that people were like just digital files, digital files, and it's like, well, no, I don't. I mean, you're going to get those, but you're also going to get this. And I do feel, anyway, the people that come to me they're not even asking me that question Like, yes, they get it. Yes, I want you to share and get that dopamine rush of like how you feel about it.

Melissa Hartfiel: 46:58

Of course there's a place for that, Absolutely yeah.

Michele Mateus: 47:01

But I really want, I really want you to have these legacy portraits.

Melissa Hartfiel: 47:07

Yeah, absolutely so. One of the things that you did recently is you hosted and put on an exhibition called Fabulous Over 40, where you photographed a lot of women over the age of 40. So thank you for doing that. No, you're welcome, it's. It's. One of the things I'm really aware of now is like how women over 40 are viewed, and my dentist I love my dentist weird thing to say but she always says, instead of saying, as we get older, she always says to me, melissa, as we get wiser, and I love that she reframes it. But, yes, so you've got all these women who are full of wisdom, shall we say. And what prompted you to create that show?

Michele Mateus: 47:51

Well, I'm for 46 myself, but yeah, I think it's just that again. Again, I'm just going to like bring it all back to my mom, right? She never felt fabulous, she never felt amazing and the, as I said in my interview with Gloria on CBC, that there was a photographer in the States that started really kind of talking about celebrating women over the age of 40, like we're not getting celebrated, you know, again, it's it's the children, it's the families, but just the individual. What is going on? They're not being recognized. And I loved that concept. I still love F words, so fabulous, it's a great effort.

Michele Mateus: 48:31

And for me, again, it was really about wanting to tell those stories. So when I photograph women, and especially for that project, I would interview them and I would send them questions about 20 questions and a questionnaire and say, like, pick your favorite five. If there's one that doesn't resonate with you like free, flow it because I wanted to be able to tell people stories through their own words, not mine, and of course it's my lens and I'm I'm in some ways, you know, manipulating what I, not not manipulating it through Photoshop, but just like I'm showing them what I see. So I wanted them to have that opportunity to share whatever they wanted to share about aging, about their experience, about, you know, being in a female body, all of that kind of stuff, and it was really powerful, it was really cool.

Melissa Hartfiel: 49:20

Yeah, awesome. I'm glad that more people are doing that. I do think, as you get older, there's sort of this cloak of invisibility that we sort of wear, and there's a lot of power in being invisible sometimes, but at the same time you start to feel like you're not being heard the way that you were when you were younger. So it's a weird space to be in kind of figuring out how to show up.

Michele Mateus: 49:43

But you got to want to show up too.

Melissa Hartfiel: 49:45

Exactly so let's talk about it. So you know, one of the reasons I brought up the woman who was 70, who didn't have the images of herself as a dancer, is because I think this is a very common theme amongst creatives. We focus on our art, the thing that we create, and whatever that may be painting, visual performance you know all the different things that make up what creativity is. We like that to sit in the spotlight, and the idea of putting ourselves in the spotlight is something that we either forget because we're so absorbed in what we're creating or, I think, in all honesty, it makes a lot of us extremely uncomfortable. I know, I know I'm one of those people. So why do you think it's so hard for us to show up for ourselves as working creatives Like to start with.

Michele Mateus: 50:33

Working creatives in, who self identify as a woman because of the patriarchy, and we're done. Welcome to my tent. So, yeah, I mean, I do think that's why I think there is a lot of socialization that's happened there. There are so many mixed messages Like you're enough, you're not enough, you're too much, be quiet, or you're not talking enough, like the messaging is just, like you know, endless, and so that's created a real kind of clusterfuck, you know, and I think that, like in our brains, you know, and then I think that when you become a creative, you are so focused on achieving through what you're creating. I know because I also do personal brand photography I've been doing that for eight years or brand photography, and so often those clients are people who are creatives. A lot of my clients are, you know, counselors, therapists I've done a lot of artists, business coaches, and they're all creative in their own right, but they've often so focused on their service. They're all listeners, like they're they are the service.

Michele Mateus: 51:47

You know, I even I even photographed a soap maker who was like amazing soap, but never was really in the frame. And it's like people want to know who I am. So I guess I got to do the thing and it's like, yeah, of course, because this is why people buy local. They buy local because they want to feel like they're buying from somebody local. They can know that's not like in a sweatshop in China somewhere, right, they want to feel that connection and, you know, that is why there's such an importance to show up there. But there's this fear and I think we hide behind this thing that we create because we haven't been emboldened to own that space as the creative right. We've been like, oh, I've got to make the best soap or the best, I don't know, whatever it is, for some reason, hammer just came to my mind, maybe because I want to smash the patriarchy. You know like we're so focused on that service and especially when the service is like there isn't a product, it's like, well, you are the product in a way, right, you are the thing. And even if there is a thing that they can buy from you, people are so hungry.

Michele Mateus: 52:57

I think, you know, with this whole buy local movement, which I believe is so important, to shop local. I mean it creates that extra layer of depth and connection and understanding that like, oh, I'm $10 for this jam because I'm buying it from this family who makes it from the berries from their farm and I got to meet them at the farmers market and how cool is that? And now I get to see their story and now, oh, I can share their website with my friends and their stories on there and you're going to love reading about this family. Versus if I just I mean, if it's just a jam and it talks about their jam on their website, I mean that's no different than just buying jam from the grocery store, you know. So I think it just really creates that depth, and storytelling is the oldest like form of human creativity around. So that is just an element of storytelling. And you know, I don't think you have to be this wild, exuberant, extrovert to want to tell your story. You can tell it in your own way, in a quiet way, in a poetic way, in a vulnerable way, in a gregarious way, like however you want.

Michele Mateus: 54:04

This fear of showing up really does, I think, come from the patriarchy and also like endless body image that's put, issues that are put upon us through these like beauty standards, that we don't ever feel good enough to be seen. You know, we think our product is really good, right, our create the thing that we're creating. We know our services bang on, but we feel insecure because we ourselves may have and probably are continually having judgment upon us about age, about weight, about, you know, how we represent, in our gender ability, right, there's so much ableism in society. It's unreal, and the list goes on and on. So how do you overcome that? My theory is you overcome that by slowly standing in that place where you're not represented, and more people will join you.

Melissa Hartfiel: 54:55

Yes, absolutely. And that kind of brings me to the next question is, like how? Because I know this is a struggle for so many of us, for so many reasons that we make up in our head like why we can't step out. But what are some words of wisdom that you have for people who know that they need to do this, they're just not sure how to go about it. Or you know, like how? I don't have anybody to take my picture, I don't have a photographer following me around, I don't know how to pose, I don't, you know, blah, blah, blah. So what are some ways that people can kind of start to get comfortable putting themselves there?

Michele Mateus: 55:42

I think one way that you can for Solace is a great question. I've not been asked that. Honestly, I think just spending five minutes in the mirror, maybe once a week, and just looking at yourself and saying something nice to yourself and finding something to appreciate about yourself that isn't necessarily based on your appearance, you know, because I think we're so focused on appearance. You know, I love my laugh. It makes people happy. You know things like that where it's like, and you might bring joy to yourself even saying that out loud. I think cultivating that self-compassion is the first place to start. You know, I tell a lot of people that I photograph like I cannot change the way you see yourself. It's not my job, I can't do that. I hope that I will show you something that maybe you haven't seen in a long time or maybe you've never seen at all, but I cannot change if you hate your nose, you know.

Michele Mateus: 56:46

I hope that I can show you that it's not as important as you think, because you're amazing in all these different ways, but I can't change that because all of that is in our head. So I think people are often hoping for photos to show them something that they don't see, but then often what ends up happening is then they see more of what they didn't want to see, because we read photographs like we read a page of words and we instantly go to oh, I don't like my flabby arms, because we're not even looking at the photo.

Melissa Hartfiel: 57:17

We're like going, we're zoning in to that spot we fixate yeah, right.

Michele Mateus: 57:22

So if you can start to like, just build that self compassion by looking at yourself in the mirror and just saying something nice to yourself and showing appreciation to yourself Again, not about your physical appearance, but maybe it's like thank you, arms for being so strong and allowing me to hold this camera up for 14 hours during a wedding, you know, or whatever. It is where you're building that compassion and that appreciation for yourself and your body. I think that's a really great place to start and to start doing selfies. Just start doing shameless selfies.

Melissa Hartfiel: 58:00

We all have a cell phone, so we all have a camera literally in our pocket where we can do things like that, and it's a great way to just get yourself a little more comfortable in kind of a. I love the mirror thing too, because that was actually something when I did. I was a drama kid in high school and so when that was something we were constantly told to do is like practice in front of the mirror practice your monologue in front of the mirror you know over and over again and see what your face looks like when you are excited or when you're sad or whatever you know.

Melissa Hartfiel: 58:32

So those mirrors can be very helpful.

Michele Mateus: 58:35

You know, I think another thing is that I'm currently doing my embodiment coaching certification and that was really born out of wanting to help guide people on a deeper level to connect with themselves and their bodies. And because we operate in our brain so much right, we're overthinking, we're not feeling, and that this whole idea of feeling like we're moving through the world, hating ourselves, just becoming more and more disembodied as busy as we are, you know, and I think that underneath that not wanting to take a photo or be in the frame there's a lot of layers underneath that. And for me, moving more into the embodiment work and doing like somatics, for myself practicing not, I've never been shy in front of a camera but there's other things that have other blocks. We all do and as you kind of start to move through that not therapy and trying to analyze that, but just trying to feel that and connect with those blocks and release them, just honor them and be like it's there.

Michele Mateus: 59:36

I don't need to analyze this, I just need to acknowledge this and thank you so much for showing up. You're welcome to go now. I'm just going to say this politely you know it's really powerful and, yeah, I've learned so much in this year so far about you know how we can allow ourselves to just be in, how I can help guide people, because I think again back to all those social structures and the patriarchy and all the messaging and it's really hard to show up Like I acknowledge that, like you know, to show up with clothes on or clothes off, yeah, exactly.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:00:17

Because I photograph people with both right.

Michele Mateus: 1:00:19

Yeah, it's really hard, and I think it's because there's so many layers of things that we need to clear out, and those things are usually external voices that made an impact on us along the way. I think about it a lot. I have a child and I think about, like some of the things that he's been told at school that I'm like, why would you say that to a kid, you know? And then I meet these women that tell me these things about someone that said something to them when they were at school and I'm like, oh my gosh, like these things stick with us so deeply, right? Yes, so there's no wonder it's hard for us to show up.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:00:55

Yeah, absolutely yeah. I think those things stick with you more as a kid than when you get told the same thing as an adult. I don't know why. For me. Anyway, I know that those things that I heard between sort of the ages of 11 and 14, 15 are the things that have stuck with me more than anything else. And not just about looks Like. I remember my grade eight art teacher telling me that I couldn't draw and so I shouldn't waste my time.

Michele Mateus: 1:01:21

Oh. Like you know, and I'm an illustrator- yeah, you know, I've heard that one before too. I've actually heard someone tell me the same thing recently, where an art teacher was like I mean, your models will just quit. Basically, it's like well, that was encouraging. It stuck with me for decades before.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:01:39

Of course it did, and it was something I always wanted to do, but I was just like, well, I'm not good enough.

Michele Mateus: 1:01:43

So why bother right?

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:01:45

And yeah, so it's yes. Those things really stick with you and I do think you mentioned before about why you know our customers, our clients, all those people they really want to connect with the person underneath that they're buying from. I was just reading a thread in a Facebook group that I'm in for a product selling masterclass, that I'm in for people who make products. So a lot of them are not what I would consider creatives in the group, but a lot of them are. And there was this one woman.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:02:21

One of the first modules is about pricing your work and this woman who had recently just joined. She was Canadian and she was really worried about she makes Christmas ornaments. She was very worried about after going through the pricing formulas, she would have to do a massive increase in her ornaments and she's like I can't sell them for that much. Nobody would buy them. And the amount that she said was really if you went into a specialty Christmas store, that's what the ornaments would start at. But for whatever reason, she couldn't see the value. She was comparing herself to Walmart and Costco and there's a place for Walmart and Costco and that's fine. But she wasn't understanding that the people who are buying from her are buying from the creative, the person who's made it. It's a handmade family heirloom ornament and you're putting yourself out there as Costco and that's not who we are.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:03:18

And so I think there is. You know, we talk about the intersection of business and entrepreneurship and creativity here, and I think there is like an actual business case for getting in front of the camera and letting people know who you are, because it's what connects them to you and makes them want to buy from you. And, like you said, nobody thinks twice about spending $18 on something they could buy at Walmart for $8. Because they've met you, they're like OK, this woman lives down the road for me and I'm helping her send her kid to soccer practice or music classes or whatever, and you know she's going to turn around and buy from other people in the community, and we don't always see that, and so I think it's actually a good business decision to get yourself out there.

Michele Mateus: 1:04:10

Yeah, and you know I love talking about money. So I love that you brought that up, because I would say to her that while the surface story is like, oh well, that's what they charge, underneath that story and this is where the juiciness of embodiment work comes in there's her own story of personal worth and personal value and like, let's unpack that, because really once you start to kind of connect with that, then those Walmart's and all the places in dollar stores again, yes, they have their place and they employ local people, but they start to matter less when you start to value yourself. So it's really like you can do all the pricing calculations and someone can teach you all of that, but you have to believe it. You know, it's the same thing with affirmations, right? People say like, oh, I will. You know, you're taught in business all the time to do these affirmations about your business and like then if you instantly don't believe it, it's not going to happen. So you know, I think that that happens a lot when it comes to pricing your products, and I see this so often that people who identify as women are not like valuing themselves and therefore kind of dancing around that, and then they start to not show up, they start to like you know they're not really pricing with integrity and in a way that will allow them to have a sustainable business. You know, because it really isn't that what it comes down to like.

Michele Mateus: 1:05:41

I didn't go into business to have a nonprofit, you know as much as I would love to have every single woman that I meet come in and have a photo shoot with me. I know my numbers and I know what it costs me to run my business and it's not, that's not something that consumers need to know. But back to showing up, that's how I bring that value right and so I can stand by those numbers. And sure, there's cheaper photographers and honestly, I want to reach out to every single one of them and offer them coaching so that they can value themselves, because most of them are women who are undervaluing themselves. And I don't even feel angry about them undervaluing me, because it's not even about that. I'm not even in that same kind of you know lineup, if you will, but it just breaks my heart to see how little so many women undervalue themselves and the work that they create. And I get it I.

Michele Mateus: 1:06:40

When I used to work in the arts, we used to run a craft fair. I worked at the roundhouse community art center in Vancouver and we ran a craft fair and I would definitely see people walking around looking at things going on could make this, and I'm like are you going to make that? Are you going to make that? No, you're not, because you're busy and that's rude, you know, and I think it's like when you start to tell your story, however, you can do that in your own unique way. Then I think you start to build that trust and then people start to get connected with that, and so I don't think they're going to really be walking by and being like I'm going to make that. They're going to be like oh, I've been seeing this person and I'm so excited to get their thing.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:07:19

Yeah, you know, it's also really fascinating to me is how, as women, we're really good at seeing when other women undervalue themselves and yet we have this really hard time telling ourselves that same thing. Like I'm so good at this, I'm so good at telling you know, the women in my mastermind group and things like that. Like you're undercharging, you should be charging way more, you're way better than what you are valuing yourself. And then when it comes to me, it's like oh no, I can't. If I do that, nobody's going to want it, it's. You know, it's hilarious in some ways and it's also extremely frustrating because I can see myself doing it. It's maddening, but yeah.

Michele Mateus: 1:07:59

I think we all do that at some point, right? I think it's always easier to give your friend advice, yes, and then you kind of like slink off quietly going. I know.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:08:07

And it's funny how we can always see the value in our friends, like we see the value they bring, but we have such a hard time seeing that in ourselves.

Michele Mateus: 1:08:14

That's the same thing with body image, though.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:08:16

Yeah, right.

Michele Mateus: 1:08:18

And you're so worried about stepping in front of the camera. You're gorgeous. You're beautiful. You have this amazing personality. You don't believe it Like the laundry list goes on. But me, oh no, I'm hideous, no, I can't. Yeah right, it's so weird. Well, I don't know if you ever heard that expression. You know like you should talk to yourself, like you talk to others, mm-hmm.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:08:36

Back to that whole standing in front of the mirror thing. Would you have a friend who talks to? Would you allow a friend to talk to you the way that you talk to yourself? No, we wouldn't, absolutely not, and you know. And yet we do it all the time. So let's talk about a few practical things before we wrap up. Yeah, because we I've taken up a lot of your time here.

Michele Mateus: 1:08:56

But um so what are some?

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:08:58

yeah. So what are? What are some easy ways that we can be in the frame without necessarily working with a professional photographer? And I'm also referring to not just getting out in front and having, like like the headshot, which I think is really important for a lot of business owners, but also, um, you know, I think one of the things that people that helps people connect with us is having photos of ourselves actually doing the thing that we do, showing ourselves absorbed in the moment. I think that can also really resonate with people. Are there some easy ways that we can do that ourselves without having to work with a professional photographer?

Michele Mateus: 1:09:37

I mean, I think you can get a tripod for your phone and people love process, people love behind the scenes, and behind the scenes and process are meant to be messy. So you don't have to overthink it, you don't have to redo it 20,000 times. You can just set your phone up on a tripod. Um, you can put it on video and you can even, as you're recording the video, you can use the videos or you can take screenshots of the video, so it's like a photo, and start to show that kind of stuff. You know, I think that um process is so fascinating.

Michele Mateus: 1:10:11

Again, it's back to meeting the maker, like how do they melt down the metal to make that ring? That's so fascinating. Like people don't have that capacity. And even drawing right, showing like, because you can, you can put your phone down. I'm no, I'm showing you and people can't see me. But, um, you can put your phone down in a way that it just focuses on your hands, like that's that little step towards the camera, where it's not your whole self, you're not um being, you know, posing pretty for the camera, like school photos. Um, it's just showing that that messy middle on the process and I really think that that starts to kind of build that, oh well, people actually like seeing this kind of thing.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:10:53

Yeah, it helps build a little bit of confidence. Um, so, when you're ready to work with a professional photographer, what are some of the things that we should look with? Because I do really think it's a something we should all aspire Like. I know, when you're first starting out, you might not have the funds to work with a professional, but I think it's a place we all want to hopefully get to, because it can just add so much to to your branding materials and and for your own confidence, as we talked about today. So what are some of the things that we should look for and what are some of the questions that we should ask before we work with somebody?

Michele Mateus: 1:11:28

Oh yeah, I have like a whole blog post on that. Um, give us a link, we'll put it in the show. Yeah, well, you know, I've written that for both when you're hiring someone to do photos for your business, and also just for yourself, because I do think there are really key things to look for. And number one everybody's looking for price, and while I know that price is important you already mentioned, especially as creatives who are undervaluing themselves maybe not quite there yet Um, you need to value other creatives.

Michele Mateus: 1:11:58

Like you said a second ago about how, um, we don't value ourselves, but we'll like cheer our friend on it's back to not valuing yourself. Um, because you're like, oh, I got to hire this photographer, and I think a lot of the times people say like, oh, I want to, I'm looking for an affordable. I don't what is affordable, cause even people with big budgets are looking for what's affordable within their budget. So I really hate that so much and I think, while I know that money is important and working within your budget is important, that should be your last thing that you consider, because I think what you really need to be considering is, um, what kind of? What kind of work do they? They create? What's the experience they're going to offer? What's their process? Um, do they get in the frame?

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:12:44

Ah, yes, that's a really good question. Do they get in the frame? I mean, for me that's a big thing.

Michele Mateus: 1:12:49

I really feel like I need to be. I need to preach what I sell. Yeah, you know, if I'm going to say, hey, come and be vulnerable with me, be it taking photos of your pottery studio or intimate portraits here in my, my studio, I need to show that, you know. So I would be looking for that, you know. I mean, of course you're looking for the style and the way that they edit. Is that dark and moody, is a bright and airy? But that's, that's one part of it. But I would be really curious of what does it? What are you going to do to get to know me so that my photos truly reflect me?

Michele Mateus: 1:13:23

As someone who has done brand photography for the last eight and a half years, as I said, I kind of fell into that. Just to be honest, when I first started being a photographer, I wanted to do photos for nonprofits and travel around and do that Cause I again back to that social justice warrior thing. So storytelling is like in my DNA. And when I started doing photos for business owners, they always want a photo with their laptop and I'll take the photo with your laptop. But what does that say about you? What does it say about you that you have a laptop.

Michele Mateus: 1:13:57

I think it's really fascinating that If maybe people don't associate so I photographed my makeup artist and people don't realize that she actually does office work. So for me that made a lot of sense, that she needed to do that, you know. Or I did a web designer and she needed to have like a lot of photos of her holding her iPad so that she could Then superimpose her. That made a lot of sense. But I want to know, I would want to know, what are you, as a photographer, going to do to help bring out my authentic personality? Because I don't. Laptops are not my authentic personality, I'll tell you. You will barely ever see me with a camera in my hand, because I'm a photographer.

Michele Mateus: 1:14:34

People know this about me when I, when I photograph people, I, you know, I myself have a process where I do an intake. I have If it were paper, it'd probably be a three-page questionnaire, both for my brand photography and for my intimate portraits that are asking questions, so that I can really get in there to figure out like, oh, you love to collect I don't know, some obscure tax China dollar, you love donuts, or? And then how can we work that into your photo shoot? Because that is where the authenticity Comes out and I think that that's what you need to look for in a photographer. Beyond, are you gonna move me through, like your Pentop selling poses that everyone move and you know what? Unfortunately, that's how we're trained in our industry. I Don't personally work like that, so for me I think that's a big value to someone is like, how are you gonna truly see me?

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:15:31

Yeah.

Michele Mateus: 1:15:33

I think that would stump a lot of people if they ask the photographer how are you?

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:15:36

gonna say is it okay to ask that question? Why not?

Michele Mateus: 1:15:40

Yeah, I'm ready to answer it. Ask me all day, any day, but no, I of course like. You're hiring someone, you're paying them very good money, you're being vulnerable with them, regardless of what they're photographing, if it's your family, if it's your wedding, if it's whatever it's like, well, how are you gonna truly reflect my knee back at me? What are? What do you? What are you hoping to do, and will I feel comfortable? I will tell you. I even ask my clients if they have any traumas that I should know about. Mm-hmm, because I I do come from, through the training that I've had. You know trauma informed and they don't need to tell me what it is, but I want to know so that I do not potentially trigger it during a photo shoot, yeah, and in the work you do, that would be really hugely important.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:16:24

I would, yeah, so Ask all the questions.

Michele Mateus: 1:16:28

You know, honestly, people don't. People usually ask me this how much is it cost? Almost that's usually the first question out of the gate. And how long does it take? That's it really.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:16:39

That's what people ask me. I think we're afraid to ask questions. Sometimes I think we're shy, or we think we we're, you know, gonna I don't know be rude. I think, yeah, well, I have questions.

Michele Mateus: 1:16:50

I have questions ready for them, you know. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get to that, but first I want to know you and first I want to know have you ever been photographed? Yeah do you have a photograph of yourself?

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:17:00

that you love. You just made such a good point. For all of us creative service providers, it is so important for us to ask questions of potential clients as well, to make sure they're the right fit, and often oh.

Michele Mateus: 1:17:14

I'm not trying to skirt around the pricing thing. I'm trying to get to know this person because you know what. It's also vulnerable for us, depending on what your service is as a creative, to engage with this person that you potentially could be spending a very long time. One of my very good friends is a jeweler and she makes the most amazing jewelry. Should totally have her on your podcast and you know she like melts down old jewelry heirlooms there's a lot of emotion attached to that and then recreates things and you know it's like you gotta be really mindful of what you're gonna create because you're melting down all of the stuff and she wants to know just as much as they want to know. Like, do I want to spend this process which is really Emotionally heightened for a lot of people with this person? Yeah, like we don't. I don't know.

Michele Mateus: 1:18:04

You get to the point in your business where you don't have to take everybody and you're. I think the creatives need out there, need to know that they're just as important and as vulnerable in those situations. So when you have questions ready to ask people, rather than just jumping to price number one, you're not selling yourself on price and competing on price. You're showing them. Okay, yeah, we're gonna get to that. I know that's important, but I want to know a little bit more about you and I think, right there, you're showing them that value of you that you bring, because you truly are bringing that value Of wanting to know your client and they're connecting with you.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:18:37

So they're already bonding with you, like before. You even talked about the money and totally so important, so important, and I know when we're starting out we have to say yes to a lot of things we don't want to do. Oh, I did, I just like you learn, you learn that you learn, which is why I love talking about this stuff you know, Because it's like, oh my gosh, if I could go back.

Michele Mateus: 1:18:58

It's like what would I focus so hard on learning my camera and the art of photography? And I'm a bit of a like nerd that way. I just love looking at old books and you know the legends Of past and really I should just be doing my business, because all that other stuff is easier to learn. To be quite honest, it is.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:19:19

It's. It's as much about psychology and and all of that too at the same time, and it's, but I think we have to go through. That too is part of the process.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:19:30

Yeah, knowing what your red flags are, knowing how to spot them, knowing that when that feeling in your gut plays up, you need to listen to it. And, yeah, we, yeah, people can tell you over and over again To not to be certain things that you have to. You have to make the mistake yourself. Oh, michelle, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I haven't really enjoyed it. And Before we sign off, where can people find you?

Michele Mateus: 1:19:55

Okay, well, you can head over to my website, mateus studioscom. I think you'll probably put it in the show.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:20:00

Absolutely no one ever knows how to spell that.

Michele Mateus: 1:20:04

And then I'm also at Mateus studios on Instagram, and I have another Instagram as well, which is Mateus coaching, and that's where I talk all about my coaching services that are really informed by my embodiment practices, and some of my branding photography is on there too Awesome.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:20:22

Yes and yes. We will put all of that in the show notes for everyone that's listening. Thank you again for being here. It was with such a pleasure to have you on the show and Thank you all for listening this week. I will be back in another two weeks with another brand new episode and we will talk to you all then.

Michele Mateus: 1:20:40

Thanks, michelle. Thank you so much for having me. I hope that this conversation inspires other creatives to just step into the frame and Own their value and worth.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:20:50

I have a feeling that it really will. Thank you so much for joining us for the Angie looked up creative hour. If you're looking for links or resources mentioned in this episode, you can find detailed show notes on our website at. And she looked up calm. While you're there, be sure to sign up for a newsletter for more business tips, profiles of inspiring community and creative women and so much more. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the show via your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave us a review through iTunes or Apple podcasts. Drop us a note via our website at. And she looked up calm, or come say hi on Instagram at. And she looked up. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.