Toronto based registered social worker and psychotherapist, Yu Tong Hannah Lin, joins Melissa to explore how we, as working creatives, can manage and overcome the ongoing challenges perfectionism and burnout present to our work. Hannah shares valuable insights that will help us understand and identify when perfectionism and/or burnout are creeping into our lives and businesses (and what to do when it's impacting our work). And, she shares some of the proactive steps we can all take to protect our mental health, our creativity and our businesses.
This episode is brought to you by Fine Lime Designs Illustrations
This is a great episodes for creatives who:
For a summary of this episode and all the links mentioned please visit:
Episode 143: Overcoming Perfectionism & Burnout with Hannah Lim
You can learn more about Hannah and her practice at her website www.yutonghannahlin.com. Follow her on Instagram @hannahlin.therapy
You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.
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For a list of all available episodes, please visit:
And She Looked Up Creative Hour Podcast
Each week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Your host, Melissa Hartfiel (@finelimedesigns), left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, writer and illustrator as well as the co-founder of a multi-six figure a year business in the digital content space. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
Toronto based registered social worker and psychotherapist, Yu Tong Hannah Lin, joins Melissa to explore how we, as working creatives, can manage and overcome the ongoing challenges perfectionism and burnout present to our work. Hannah shares valuable insights that will help us understand and identify when perfectionism and/or burnout are creeping into our lives and businesses (and what to do when it's impacting our work). And, she shares some of the proactive steps we can all take to protect our mental health, our creativity and our businesses.
This episode is brought to you by Fine Lime Designs Illustrations
This is a great episodes for creatives who:
For a summary of this episode and all the links mentioned please visit:
Episode 143: Overcoming Perfectionism & Burnout with Hannah Lim
You can learn more about Hannah and her practice at her website www.yutonghannahlin.com. Follow her on Instagram @hannahlin.therapy
You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.
You can connect with the podcast on:
For a list of all available episodes, please visit:
And She Looked Up Creative Hour Podcast
Each week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Your host, Melissa Hartfiel (@finelimedesigns), left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, writer and illustrator as well as the co-founder of a multi-six figure a year business in the digital content space. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
This week's episode of the And She Looked Up podcast is brought to you by Fine Lime Illustrations. If you love quirky, colorful art transformed into fun handmade stationery items pretty much guaranteed to brighten somebody's day that's just what you'll find in my new online shop at FineLimeIllustrationscom. That's fine, as in I'm fine lime, as in the fruit illustrations dot com. Browse the entire collection, or sign up for my email list to see some behind the scenes peeks into my studio. You'll also get first notice of new product launches and subscriber only sales, and as an added little bonus, you'll also receive a free coloring sheet to help you relax and de-stress from your day. And now on with the show. Welcome to the And She Looked Up podcast.
Melissa Hartfiel:Each week, we sit down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. I'm your host, Melissa Hartfiel, and after leaving a 20 year career in corporate retail, I've been happily self-employed for 12 years. I'm a graphic designer, an illustrator and a multi-six figure year entrepreneur in the digital content space. This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Melissa Hartfiel:Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the And She Looked Up podcast. As always, I'm your host, Melissa, and this week we have a really big juicy topic for you. We're going to be talking about perfectionism and burnout for working creatives, and I know this is something that so many of you probably all of you have struggled with at some point. We've done episodes in the past on this, but we've never had the opportunity to have a mental health professional on the show, and we have that today. My guest is Yu Tong Hannah Lin. Welcome to the show, Hannah.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Thank you so much for having me here, Melissa. It's a pleasure.
Melissa Hartfiel:I am really looking forward to today's conversation because, as I said, this is something that is a challenge for everyone, I think, but working creatives definitely can let perfectionism get in the way of producing their work, and that, of course, can also lead to burnout, so most of us don't know how to address it, though, but before we get into that, let's just get to know Hannah a little better. She is a registered social worker based in Toronto, and she believes in providing inclusive mental health care, which includes making space in conversation for race, culture, gender and sexuality. She is passionate about working one-on-one with clients to de-stigmatize mental health and address anxiety, burnout and perfectionism, and that is exactly what we're going to be talking about today. So yes, hannah, before we get into that, the first question I ask everyone who comes on the show, whether they're a working creative or not, is did you feel like you were creative as a kid?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Absolutely. I feel that, although my official title is supporting adult mental health, there are a lot of creative aspects to what I do day to day, and I think that as a child, my creativity was really fostered from two things I can think of. One is my mom, who really introduced me to the idea of creating stories and telling stories, to writing, and, as young as five and six, she had introduced me to the concept of diary keeping or writing stories. So I think that really created space where I get to imagine what a life would be outside of what I see and what I do every day from a very young age.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I also think that I was bored quite a bit as a kid, and so I wasn't always surrounded with technology or toys, and so I had to use a lot of creativity to imagine what again I couldn't see or what was in front of me, and so I would say, absolutely creativity came somewhat naturally, but I also feel that it was a practice. It was first introduced by a parent in terms of how I can be creative, then the ways I could be creative, and so, saying that it was first really created, an opportunity was created for me to explore what it means to be creative. And then with that I remember when I was a little bit older, I really explored the visual arts. So in school I was really into music and visual arts and again, that was a space for me where things I couldn't see or wasn't in front of me became real. So yeah, I would say I was very creative as a kid and I continued to take those pieces and imagine what my business could be in my present life which I think is pretty cool.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yes, you are the first person, I think, who has actually said that it was also a practice as a child. I've never had anybody say that before, so that is really interesting that you actually recognize that looking back on it now. So yeah, because I think as an adult we talk about having a creative practice whether it's an art practice, a writing practice, those kinds of things but it's not something that we necessarily look back to our childhood and recognize that that was part of it. And yet I think it kind of is innately part of being a child is we don't have the language to say that it's a creative practice as a child, but it kind of is.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, and when I hear people say I'm not a creative person, I just think that it's not that they're not a creative person, it's just that their environment wasn't conducive to them building and practicing that skill. And it's not to say that that person can never become a creative person. And I think maybe that is a bit of a trigger for some people where they think what it means to be creative is so much more they have to be the top number one artist or to that degree. But I think, as you said, it's an innate ability to be creative as human beings.
Melissa Hartfiel:Absolutely. I firmly believe that. I think we all have creativity in us and I think the ways that creativity come out are different for everyone. It's so interesting when I ask this question it's my favorite question to ask on the show but so many people will say no. People who are considered creatives as adults would say no, they didn't feel creative as a kid because they couldn't draw or paint, and that is like what is so locked into so many people's heads is like if you can't draw or paint, you're not creative. And yet you can be a creative chef, you can be a creative metalworker, you can be a creative programmer Like there's creativity in everything that we do. So, yeah, very interesting answer to that question. What led you down the path of becoming a mental health professional?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, it's a really great question and I think sometimes I answer this question the simple way.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:This was something that I just fell into in school and then graduate school and naturally fell into place in terms of my career development. But if I were to be a little bit more insightful, I think I would give the answer of I think it's really due to my experiences as a racialized person, the person of immigrant status. I came to Canada as a kid with my mom and so, going through the cultural changes, going through the difficult times I had in life, I think those experiences maybe subconsciously, were consciously to some degree led me to pick a profession where I was really curious about what drives people to do the things that they do, think, the thoughts that they have and how to support them when they're having challenges. So I think it's a full circle moment for me and I would say that my career is just starting. I don't have 20 years under my belt, but if I were to give an insightful answer, it would be fully, because of what I've been through is exactly why I am in the career field that I am now.
Melissa Hartfiel:Is it because, growing up and all the things that you went through, you didn't feel like there was I'm not sure the way to word this, but that there wasn't maybe that support for you or for your mom, maybe? Or was it that you wanted to hear other people's experiences, like how did it all come together in that way?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think it's still coming together for me Still trying to piece together why that it fell into place the way it did. But in hindsight, absolutely I think that there was a lack of resources for mom, because mom was a single mother. She's trying to make things work. She came to a new country as a skilled immigrant and for her it was basically a loss of ability to do what she did back in China exactly working the finance industry, working for banks and carry those skills over to have a similar lifestyle here. That was not possible because her experience wasn't recognized. So that aspect, along with being a single mom just making the bills meet and taking care of a young child in a different culture with no support, it's like obviously it's piled up and I think it definitely took a toll on her mental health and I think I didn't have the awareness as to what was going on.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I just knew I had a great time in school, but sometimes I felt a little sad and like there were just pieces that didn't quite align for me and I think in hindsight it's about the loss of culture, it's about the loss of it's about grieving too.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:But I could have had, for example, stayed in China around family and kept my friends and not had to learn a new, totally a new language and function as a bilingual person. So all of those pieces I think I didn't have the words to express what I was going through because I was just going through, I was just young, but I think it led me to be more reflective of how can I use my experience to help others who don't feel like they belong fully, so like they can fully express themselves and be their authentic selves, whether it be due to cultural reasons or a generational gap between being able to express and communicate with their parents, with their family and friends, and those who have issues just being able to live their full lives. So that's really what drove me to focus on adult mental health, especially for folks who identify as women of color and men of color.
Melissa Hartfiel:It's such an interesting time. My mom is an immigrant too and I'm a first generation Canadian on her side and a second generation on my dad's side, and it wasn't until I became much older that and my former partner is also an immigrant who had to learn a new language at 14. I didn't realize until I got older just how challenging that was for them. I always had this sense as a kid that something was different with our family, but I really didn't understand how, yeah, and I don't think there was that support for people like my mom or for your mom or yourself as a kid. And it's not something that you fully process until you get to be a lot older, I think, and then you start to realize that, yeah, things were different and it was hard. And I don't think I realized until I was much older just how hard it was for my mom and just not having anyone like her to talk to. So, yeah, I think it's really interesting that you chose to go down that road as your profession. So now that you're out there and you're practicing, we're going to dive into this topic of perfectionism and burnout and creatives and how that all works and, as I mentioned early in the episode.
Melissa Hartfiel:One of the most popular episodes we've ever done was actually I think it was like episode number four or five of this show. It was back with my former co-host, lisa, and it was on procrastination or perfectionism, and it was just the two of us talking. There was nobody who was a mental health professional involved in the episode. It was just us talking about how we dealt with these things because we were both we both still are perfectionists and how that tended to manifest itself in our work. For me it's procrastination. I just if it's 100% procrastination. But let's start with the basics. How would you define perfectionism?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Great question. I think there's so many definitions out there about what it is and what it's not. I personally think perfectionism and procrastination are best friends, they walk hand in hand, and so I think for me, perfectionism is really about a state of being, and when a person myself included, I deal with this too is there's a tendency to set these standards that the person probably knows it's unrealistic or could only be met with so so much great difficulty. But yet there is some sort of peace or some sort of soothing, self soothing aspect to holding onto these ideals that are not realistic. There's something about keeping this perfection, this ideal, that it makes us feel like we're going somewhere, but we'll maybe dive into why it doesn't. Yes, interesting.
Melissa Hartfiel:I've never heard somebody say that it's almost like a self soothing piece mechanism, but that's really interesting.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:It could be. It could be and it's not the same for everybody. I would ask myself, if you're a creative and you struggle with perfectionism, ask yourself what do you think these values you're holding onto around, what it means to be perfect, what are these perfect ideals? How do they help you? How does it help you to hold these values? Do you believe in your core that it keeps you going, and are these core values helpful or unhelpful? So that's something that we get to unpack in therapy. Quite a bit with my clients is like what are you holding?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:onto and I think all of us have these ideals that we hold onto. That, we think is very much keeping us going somewhere but sometimes keeps us going in circles.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yes, I can relate to that, and that kind of leads me to my next question is how much of our past influences are present when it comes to perfectionism? Is there stuff that's rooted back in childhood or teenage years that comes to play in this?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think that's a really great question.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think that perfectionism or other states of being, I think, is a very important question.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think there's a reason why they come to be functionally in our adult life, in the current life, and I think, absolutely whoever we are in the present, from my training, from my way of looking at mental health, which includes the person's attachment styles as a kid, their experiences as children I would say that absolutely, and the way that I would go about this is I would ask the person think about the patterns demonstrated to you as, for example, with your primary caregivers, whether it be your parents, grandparents, family members around.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:How did they react to you when you made a mess? How did they react to you when you made a mistake? How were mistakes and forgiveness, if that was demonstrated at all? How did people repair after repair our situation or relationship when things didn't go the way they thought it would? These patterns are often demonstrated to us starting from a very young age, and we pick up signals about how we should be, how we ought to be and how we best to be, without really being mindful or being aware, because we're so young and we just know that these patterns are the norm and so, yeah, I would say absolutely, it's connected and it takes really a lot of self-awareness to say maybe this is not working for me anymore.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:And it worked for some time. But yeah, to be more critical about your experience and here we're not trying to blame, we're not trying to blame whoever was in the past about what they did, because, truly, a lot of parents they try their best, but the outcome is that the caret that was given to the child wasn't attuned to the child's needs, and so we're not minimizing their efforts, nor are we minimizing the pain or the struggles that we currently deal with. I think we have to hold both parts with tenderness here.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yes, no, I do agree. There's no manual for being the best parent, and I think for the vast majority of us, our parents did what they thought was best, and it may not have always been the right thing, but hindsight is 2020. When it comes to that as well, I think. Would they say they would do things differently now, knowing how things turn out. You never know right, but I think you're right. I think you have to be kind to both ends of the spectrum, and I didn't throw this into the list of questions that we were initially talking about, but do you think this is something that people who identify as women struggle with more than those who identify as male?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I was going to say that in thinking about the answer to your last question, I also thought about well, it's not just about who was there or who wasn't there in your childhood and what your upbringing was. It's about the greater societal forces at play here.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:And when we look at things like misogyny and feminism and sexism. All these isms definitely have a role to play when it comes to prescribing what women should do. What a success for a woman look like, what a success for men look like, and then what a success look like for a non-binary person. And oftentimes these are prescribed as these unspoken rules or ways of being in society, and it could be really hurtful when we're told not to talk about it. It's just a way of doing and not question if this is the way it is, and so I think it's really important to also point out are these forces influencing you? Have they been influencing you?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:And I often find that the people that I work with who identify as women have a really hard time with perfectionism. They have weather and beat, even as simple as not as simple as, but when it comes to work, but also their personal life, right Friendships, relationships, feeling like. If, for example, they're looking for love and they're looking for a stable relationship, they have to get it right, it has to be perfect. And then there's the biological clock. Well, if I don't find my love or the person to be with before I'm 30, then I'm screwed. Yes, again, it's like you know that perfection is thinking like it has to be a certain way, otherwise I failed.
Melissa Hartfiel:Is really just goes also beyond the work that we do, I find yeah, do you find that something similar with clients, or even yourself, as an immigrant, and I, just as being the child of an immigrant, that perfectionism has a little bit of a role in there? I just it's something I've noticed myself, like it's definitely sort of along the lines of, like you know, there was certain things that were expected because your parents had made these choices to give you a better life, and so you're expected to do certain things to fulfill, almost like your end of the bargain, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, yes, so I think. Do you think it plays a role in there?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think it does. I think that parents will say this you know, with no intention of harm, I came here to create better life for you. But as a child, what does that mean? You know, as a teenager, what does that mean? Does it mean that I have to be a certain way so that parents are still happy about the decision they made? For example, if I didn't become successful, whatever that means and my parents are does it mean that their immigration decision is a failure?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:You know, basically, I think a lot of immigrant parents will come with this idea of okay, I came to a different country or a different culture to provide better opportunities for my children, and it's never again framed as intention to harm. But I think it can be a very difficult thing to meet in terms of okay. So how do we know that my child actually ends up having a better life? And is it really within the parents control? And I would say no, it's not within their control, right? And I also question, because my mom said the same thing to me right Around.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:You know, I came here to provide better life for you. You can have access to better educational, education and things like that. And I always ask her like why did you make the decision? Because there's gotta be something in there for you and it's about you know, and I'm not a my mom's therapist, but I do really care about helping her to take onus of her own life, right, it's sometimes easier to say I'm doing this for someone else than to say I'm doing this for myself, and I think it's really important to turn that narrative around if you truly want to live an authentic life to, as children of immigrants, as anybody, to say I'm doing this for myself and take that onus and take that responsibility, because it's easier to, I think, deal with the consequences than to have that place on someone else in terms of expectations of others.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yes, I think sometimes to say we're doing it for ourselves implies some level of selfishness that maybe we don't want to address, and it doesn't have to be selfish at all to do something for yourself, so. But I think it's easier sometimes to say that you're doing it for somebody else rather than admitting to the world that, yeah, I'm worth doing something for myself as well. So I think you said something very, very important there. What are some of the sneaky ways that perfectionism can show up for? Well for anyone, but for working creatives in particular, that we might not even notice, Like for me? It took me years to recognize that procrastination was me avoiding making a mistake or doing a bad job of something.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Absolutely yeah, and I agree with you. This extends for anybody, but I was thinking specifically for creatives, and I really try to get into what it is that I have trouble with, because I identify as being a creative in some aspects of my work, and there's so many. So it could be as simple as if I'm. If somebody's creating a program or a product or something that has a final oh, this is done, I'm putting this off to marketing or something next step, and never feeling like it's finished, even though you've given yourself a timeline like, oh, this year I wanna complete this project, but you're finding yourself either not finishing it or never finishing it to the degree that you want it to be.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:So that's the way that it shows up. Another way is experiencing frustration and a lot of self-critical talk, Even after spending a lot of time and effort in doing what it is that you're doing. So this is the really talk around. Oh well, I can improve on this, this needs to be changed and that's not good enough, and then this is no longer applicable, but it's never ending. Yes, it could be as simple as checking, accessively checking emails and communication, especially with those stakeholders. So, whatever the stakeholder is in your business, whether it be clients or partnerships and things like that, accessively checking the way that you're writing certain responses, making sure the grammar is perfect, without you know even though it's not the end of the world if you make a mistake in an email or even in a conversation, and then excessively thinking about it afterwards too right and thinking, oh, could I have said that better? Did I really communicate with what I wanted?
Melissa Hartfiel:I see you're nodding so I think I'm checking all these boxes out.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, yeah. And I think another way this shows up is delaying what you wanted to actually pursue. So let's say you wanted to reach out to somebody for again building your contacts, building your business, but you're delaying and making that call or cold emailing or asking that question because you don't want to appear. Certain ways, such as I don't want to appear incompetent, I don't want to appear like I'm not good enough, so I'm just not going to do it. And at the end of the day, I think perfectionism really shows up when anybody can ask themselves this Am I trying to avoid trying new things that will ultimately help me run my business better?
Melissa Hartfiel:Mm, that's an interesting one, because I've done that. I know so many people have done that and I never associated it with perfectionism, but I can see that now that you've mentioned it.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, that is interesting and we think about it. It's like there's a risk of making mistakes, and mistakes are not friends to somebody who is deep in perfectionism.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, I just tend to say, oh, I don't have time for that, or I don't have time to learn something new, or I've got too many other things on the go right now. But yeah, I can see that. An interesting one that I've noticed with a lot of my clients because I'm a designer, so I work with a lot of people in that capacity. I've noticed clients get hung up on the most minute decisions. So it could be between choosing between two shades of blue, and the only people who are going to notice the difference between those shades of blue are them and me. Nobody else will notice, but a decision like that can almost cause paralysis in the project and it took me a long time to realize it's nothing to do with the blue, it's everything to do with the fact that they are just not ready to say this is done.
Melissa Hartfiel:So yeah that's an interesting one.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Because if the person is aligned with their value of the work that they want to produce, I think, at the end of the day, whichever blue they choose, they will make peace with that shade of blue, they will make peace with that decision they make, even though, let's say, five years down the line, 10 years down the line, they changed your mind right, and that's OK too. It's not about getting a perfect break from the get-go, it's not about that.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, absolutely so. Most of us is working creatives or artists we want to put out, or creative service providers we want to put out high quality work or we want to provide a high quality service. That's super important to us. We're trading on our name, and so attention to detail, excellent artisanship, high level customer service, those are all things that are really important to us.
Melissa Hartfiel:But how do we walk that fine line between producing that quality work and tipping over to the point where that level of quality starts to seep into this wall of perfectionism that stops us from doing things Like how do we actually let go of that need to? I don't want to say I'm not being articulate about this. I don't want to say let go of the need to produce excellent work. We still want to do that, but at the same time, not getting trapped by this idea that it's not perfect, so it's not good enough to go out there Because it is kind of a fine line right, like, where do you say, ok, this is done, I'm finished, I need to move on to the next thing.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:That's a really great question and something you brought up, I think, makes perfect sense. Right, there is this wall of perfectionism, and once we hit this wall, it's like we're not going anywhere. We're not going any direction, but backwards. And so sometimes, what could be helpful? If you're finding yourself, for example, it's a producing excellent work, you're not producing anything at all, maybe that's a sign that you're heading this wall of perfectionism, and so can you invite yourself to take a few steps backwards? And so what this can look like is connecting with your supports in your business.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Not personal supports, that's important too but specifically for your professional supports, who do you have? A business coach? Do you have other colleagues doing similar work? Can you reach out to them for some of that support? And sometimes it's about taking a break and stepping away from exactly what you're doing so that you can see things in the big picture again. Because once we lose I think often when we lose the sight of the big picture, of why we're doing the work we do, why it's important to us to produce high quality work, we get stuck on the very details of how things ought to be, and so I think it's really important when that starts to happen. Can you invite yourself to take a step? Just pause and maybe take a step backwards.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, because I think it is a bit of a fine line sometimes, and sometimes you don't even realize you've crossed it, until you do have that moment where you're like we've been working on this project for six months, it was supposed to end four months ago, kind of thing.
Melissa Hartfiel:So the whole idea of letting go of perfectionism, the need for perfectionism and I think this is scarier for a lot of people than anyone's willing to admit, or even admit to themselves to actually say that I am afraid to let go of perfectionism it sounds like a funny thing to say, right, like why wouldn't you let go of it? But in yet we struggle with that. But letting go of this need for perfectionism can free us up in ways we often don't expect. Our creativity flows more freely, our work actually improves, weirdly, because we're moving through life more freely or we're not getting so caught up in all those minor details and I know this is easier said than done. But how can we learn to let go of those things Beyond the short-term solution of taking a break, going for a walk, stepping back from a project, how can we learn to let go of those things from a longer-term perspective, throughout our creative career as a whole?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:It's a really great question and, as I said before, I feel like perfectionism is a state of being right. If the person is in this for so long, it's going to be a pattern that comes up again and again. I think, as you said, some people even have difficult time acknowledging this is happening. So I think that's really important to actually acknowledge this is happening and acknowledge the impacts of perfectionism, the negative impacts that it has in your creative life, in your life in general. Can you be honest about what it's actually doing to you? Is it actually pushing you forward and completing excellent work, or is it debilitating, is it immobilizing you? And oftentimes, I think people will tell me, yeah, I'm not actually doing anything, I'm stuck.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, so think about it in a critical way. Right, is holding these values and beliefs about what perfection even looks like helping me? Yeah, and I think, then, it's about addressing the thinking. Right, as I mentioned before, the core believes the thinking that keeps you away from pursuing a life that truly is an alignment with your values, and sometimes we're really nasty with ourselves with that self-talk around what the work ought to look like, ought to be like, and instead of those thoughts, can you replace them with something that is a little bit more realistic, such as all I can do is my best, my best today is going to be different than my best one year from now.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Very true, and things like making a mistake does not mean I'm a mistake does not mean I'm the failure. So acknowledging that the self-talk has a really important factor in all of this, I think could be a way to really address it. The way we talk to ourselves, the way we think about perfectionism and if it actually belongs in our life, and I would say, if you're finding that you're stuck in these loops of hitting this wall again and again, is it time to seek for some additional resources to help you, whether it be a business coach or a mental health therapist. And I think through exposing yourself to some additional help, you're getting somebody who could walk alongside of you and maybe point out the signs of this could be happening to you before you maybe acknowledge it, maybe before you acknowledge how it's impacting you in a harmful way, just so that there's accountability there as well.
Melissa Hartfiel:That's interesting. You say that, yeah, I've been part of a mastermind group for years now. I lost track of how many years five or six, I think, maybe more than that and it's small there's five or six of us depending on where we're at. But it's so interesting to have because we meet every month and we talk about what we're working on, where we're struggling, all those types of things, and it's so interesting.
Melissa Hartfiel:You don't realize how many times you've talked about this one specific project that you're going to get out there and all of a sudden somebody in the group says do you realize? You've been talking about this for a year now and you haven't gotten anywhere with it. And all of a sudden you don't realize you've been talking about it for a year. And it sinks in when somebody else calls you out on it and it's never done in a mean way or anything, but it's just like you do realize it's been a year and you haven't been forward. So maybe you need to reevaluate. Is this the project for you or is there something else going on here? And very often it's something deeper that's happening Again. Procrastinating I love that. You said procrastination is perfectionism's best friend, because, oh, my goodness, yes, walk out of hand, yeah.
Melissa Hartfiel:They do.
Melissa Hartfiel:And I remember hearing in a podcast with an author and she talked about finishing energy when it comes to projects and how it's a very different energy from any other phase of she was speaking specifically about writing novels and she just said she is so great at starting energy and the middle energy and it's the finishing energy.
Melissa Hartfiel:She says, because I've got the creative part out of me, I've written the story, but it's all the little things like the cover design and she's self-published. So she's doing all of this herself and getting it out there and promoting it and it's a completely different kind of energy and she struggles with it every time. But recognizing to herself that it's a different kind of energy has helped her deal with it and almost look upon it differently, and so she tackles it differently than she does the other and I thought that was really interesting. I'd never heard anybody talk about it that way, but it made a lot of sense to me. It is a different kind of energy. Sometimes it's doing things that we don't want to do or like to do, or it means putting the thing out there for other people to look at. That's all part of finishing energy and, yeah, I found that fascinating.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:So my favorite word in entrepreneurship and creative work is delegate. I had a really tough time with this before and I'm still working through it. Right, delegating, because I can be the expert for everything. There's got to be somebody out there who, for example, does the cover art way better than I would imagine it, does the write up for the front cover way better than I can imagine it. So get in tune with that. Are you okay with delegating? And if not, what's holding you back? Right, working through some of those mental blocks?
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, in the early part of my career after university, I worked in retail and I worked in management and I had worked all through university and high school in retail as a cashier and those kind of roles. But when I went into management I remember being pulled aside by somebody from our head office and she just said to me none of this is your job. She's like, this is not she's. Your job is to delegate all these jobs to the people who work with you. That is their job, your job. And it was a very direct conversation. But it was one of the best lessons I learned and it was still.
Melissa Hartfiel:I got very good at it in a retail environment because it wasn't my business. It was still hard because I always like, will they do it as good as I did it, that kind of thing. But then getting to the point where it was my own business and trying to delegate, I had to learn it all over again because now it's my business, now I've got that emotional attachment to it that I didn't have and it's hard, but when you get it going it is the best thing in the world. It is once you realize that person you hired to do the book cover did a way better job than you ever could have done. You're like why was I so caught up about this? And yet we do. We let ourselves get really tangled up in it. So that leads me to the next question, which is can perfectionism contribute to burnout?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Really great question. I think that it definitely can. I think that there's so many critical ways to look at burnout and I like to look at burnout from a lens where it's not the person per se but there's again so many factors within the society, within the creative field, that makes burnout a perpetuated, almost like a norm, like this you're ought to burnout. This happens every so often and I definitely think those two things are tied. I bet there's research kind of showing or studying this right now about the details of burnout, like what contributes to burnout and how does perfectionism feed into it.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I would say from anecdotal evidence, I think that when the person feels really stuck right in terms of not being able to move forward their work, then there's a possibility of questioning the bigger picture what am I doing? Am I on the right track? And doubting, doubting self and I think a lot of creatives who work independently, who don't have the support mechanisms in place to prevent burnout, could get there really easily. So what this can look like is feeling as if they lost their purpose and what they do. They feel really drained and have no drive to do anything. That's work-related and it may even bleed into some of the personal life goals as well.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, I've struggled with burnout multiple times myself, and the last time it was so bad that I did have to get help, and it was. I think perfectionism played a role in it. I certainly don't think it was everything that contributed to it, but yeah, it was going through an intense burnout. The one that I was in lasted for a year and I learned a lot. It was a really good learning experience. I don't wish it on anyone ever, but I certainly learned a tremendous amount about myself and the things that I needed to put in place to make sure it didn't happen again. And so maybe one of the things that I didn't notice is I didn't notice it creeping up on me, I didn't notice it manifesting itself. And so what are some of the things we can look for to help us recognize burnout in ourselves before it gets to the point where it is really crippling? And also, how is that different from feeling creatively blocked? Because I do think those are two different things in my personal experience.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think just from my own experience I have also encountered burnout before and I think people who have encountered burnout, it's not a one time in your life thing. I think it could be cyclical, it could be a pattern. And something to get curious about is is this burnout telling me that there's something that is misaligned in what I do and what I want to be doing, or what I should be doing, happening? And if I ask myself that question for all the times I've burned out before, I would say a big yes, because I'm a creative person, because I am the person that I am, when my life's work does not align with my values, does not align with my big picture, and I feel that I have to continue because I started something. It causes burnout.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:It really does, and I don't know if I'm going off track to answer your question, but to recognize the way that burnout could happen is are you getting frustrated with your work? You know more than usual. Is there a sense of loss of hope in what your future look like in as a creative in this field? Do you start self-doubting a lot more, either about your current work or your past work? Was that the right decision? Did I do that right, and how is it different from feeling creatively blocked? I think feeling creatively blocked is more so, maybe, in my opinion, more project-based or more specifically, based on this time or phase of this project you're working on, less so than this overall feeling of I don't feel like doing this anymore and I'm really exhausted.
Melissa Hartfiel:No, you didn't go off topic at all there. I think that was very on top. I know. For me burnout almost veered into full-on depression Not almost it did, but for me, creatively blocked. One thing I've learned is that my creative energy ebbs and flows. It peaks and somebody I've mentioned it before on the show has referred to it as waves from the ocean. When you're riding a wave as a surfer, you're on the peak. It's awesome. It's amazing. You're getting that adrenaline rush and things are flowing. And then you come down and it's quiet. And he said I had to learn that the next wave will come.
Melissa Hartfiel:I think for creative block, we always get into this fear like I'm never going to create anything ever again, I'll never have another good idea. And it was just recognizing and learning to trust that, yes, good ideas will come. It's just I'm in the down cycle of the wave and you can't. If we didn't have ups and downs, everything would be flat, everything would feel the same. So you have to have those with ebbs and flows. But the burnout was very different. For me that was like you mentioned frustration, feeling drained. I don't want to do this anymore. And you absolutely hit the nail on the head when you said it's are things aligned. For me they were not aligned and I just didn't understand or recognize that they weren't aligned. And I think that's true for a lot of us and sometimes I think maybe we don't even want to admit they're not aligned, like because that's scary in itself, because it means making changes.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yes, that's scary. I want to go back to what you said about being creative and blocked. Okay, I think sometimes maybe we use language is so important, right? So when we talk about, I like the waves example, because when the wave rises and falls, we don't say that when it falls there's something wrong with the wave. That's just how waves work. And so even you know, challenging yourself in naming the stages in your work, right? Is it that you're creatively blocked or is this a time for reflection and cultivation of what's to come next?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:And I really learned this lesson actually this summer or this spring, when I tried gardening for the first time.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:It's very strange maybe not so connected, but I learned this lesson through gardening when I was cultivating seeds and when I was planting seeds and for a long time, nothing came above ground and I was getting frustrated and I said to myself like what's happening? I put the seeds in, I did what I was supposed to do and nothing. And the thing is we don't know what's happening underground. We can't see what's happening underground. And it's really about making peace with that time and, in our creative lives, to learn that this is part of the process, that there are going to be times where we are cultivating things that cannot be presented, cannot be seen or sold, or it's not a product that we can sell, and there's going to be times where we, through that cultivation of waiting and patience and maybe not doing anything, it seems like that the blossom comes and this cycle I really learned through gardening and seeing how life in biology works in real time. It really taught me this lesson this year.
Melissa Hartfiel:Absolutely. I'm a big gardener so I totally, totally get that comparison, because that's exactly what it's like. It's like okay, I've planted everything, dumbed it up, you're drumming your fingers on the counter, you know like where's the thing, yeah, and you know nature just takes its course, it just does things in its own time and you can't rush them, and that's, it's funny. The wave thing. After hearing that, a few years later I was on vacation in Tafino during storm season and I remember out, being out walking my dog on the beach and the there were surfers all sitting out at various points. Further, I could see them bobbing along in their little wetsuits and it was cloudy and stormy, and the whole wave analogy came back to me and I just thought they're waiting for the next wave, but they were just chatting with each other and having a good time and they weren't. They were in no rush, like the wave's gonna come and it'll be great. But right now I'm talking with my friends while I wait for it, and it's cool, and surfers are so zen about things, you know, and I just thought that's it, that's, that's the thing. When the wave is at its lowest point, that's when you just need to like chill, just relax, it's you know get ready for the next wave because it's going to come. So just be sitting there on your surfboard and and be ready to ride it when it shows up. But in the meantime, enjoy the break. And again, that's a an analogy based in nature, because again, you can't rush the waves. So your teeth so much, yeah for sure.
Melissa Hartfiel:A lot of times we know we're feeling burnt out but we're afraid to take the time to address the root problems. Because for a number of reasons. Number one we were self employed and we need to earn, and the thought of taking a break means we're not going to be earning, and that's that's really scary. When you have bills to pay and you have, you know you need to pay your rent or your mortgage and all those things. But also it's scary because we we know deep down it probably means we need to make some significant changes in the way that we're functioning.
Melissa Hartfiel:So often what we do is we make these small temporary changes, and this was the trap I fell into. I would start to feel burnt out. I'd make a few small changes, get back on track, I'd feel fine for a couple of months and then the changes would fall by the wayside and I'd wind up right back where I started. It was very cyclical until it really just got to the point where I couldn't ignore it. How can we break that cycle? How can we? You know and I know it's a, I know that's a big question but when it starts to become apparent that these small changes are not enough, how do we take the next step?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, it's a really great question because the thing is, when somebody's going through burnout, they are already so depleted in many ways whether it be financially, emotionally and beyond and what we need the most during this time, I think, is a lot of support, a lot of pouring in of what we've depleted.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:And sometimes this means investing into doing some deeper work. Something that I would be very curious about, if somebody is finding themselves going through these cycles of burnout, is would it be important for this person to do some value exploration around what success is to them, or what even money values, because so much of what we do is tied with the bills we have to pay the income. Even though we're creatives, there's that very real aspect of we need to feed ourselves at the end of the day.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:So I'd be curious about are there unhelpful narratives that have been happening, subconsciously or unconsciously, about what success looks like, what it has to be? Are you limiting yourself in terms of the ways that you could be successful? Are you scared of success? There's so many ways that we hold ourselves back and I think in this time where we're feeling so depleted, I would also ask the person to think about who is supporting you in your business professionally. And if the person can't name three different support systems or people, maybe it's time to think about investing into building the support, because we don't do this alone, even though the very much producing of the work can feel like a solo project. We need pillars in our business, right, whether it be a software that helps us, whether it be a group of other creatives that we can lean into when we need that support, whether it be a coach to work through some of these unhelpful narratives that keeps us from being successful and being even making peace with what we have in terms of success that we have earned. Right, do you celebrate the success that you have?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think a lot of creatives are always onto the next thing, on the next thing, on the next thing, and they've recognized come a long way since five years ago, five months ago, and I think the biggest, maybe one of the biggest ways to prevent burnout is to look back often, but with eyes of kindness, with eyes of compassion and understanding that this is hard work and doing this not only fulfills your big picture, your values, but You're doing so much more. For some people it's a very active social justice that they don't work in 95, that they don't follow these norms, as society has told us what you know stable job has to look like, what stable professional life has to look like. So honor that for yourself, right.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, I think that's very true, and one of the underlying themes of this season of the podcast is defining what success looks like for you, not what it's supposed to look like or what everyone else says it should look like or what you're led to believe. Success is via social media, you know, and it doesn't have to look that way. It doesn't have to be about money either. There's so many different ways to measure success. Obviously, money is important we all need money to get through the day but sometimes I think we constantly get bombarded with the six-figure launch or the multi-six figure launch success story. Right, and you have to have that. So there's so many different ways to look at success, and I think it's so true that when your values aren't aligned and you mentioned something else that was interesting that for some people, being self-employed is almost like a rebellion against the corporate nine to five, and I think a lot of us, when we become small business owners, all of a sudden we notice a year or two down the road that we're actually back to that nine to five, but we're doing it in our own house or whatever, and it's nothing's really changed, and I think that that can make us feel uncomfortable, or there's a lot of things that go on when we ignore those things. I always know that I always have a gut feeling when something's not quite right and maybe I can't put my finger on it, but I'm also really good at ignoring those gut feelings when they're not convenient. So I have a feeling I'm not the only one.
Melissa Hartfiel:So, as creatives and as people who are self-employed you mentioned, can you identify three supports in your business? And I think that's a big one? Because I think often when we're self-employed, especially when we're starting out, we're trying to bootstrap, we're trying to do it all on our own because we don't have a budget to necessarily hire somebody or work with professionals or delegate, and that's. I think in some ways the riskiest time of being a small business owner is those early days because we're putting all that pressure on ourselves. But if there were three mental health practices you would love to see more creatives embracing in their work and their studio life, what would those be?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think I want to share a practical one, and maybe this is not rooted in a mental practice, but tied to what we just talked about, where we're working on our own often times, and sometimes people choose this way of life because they don't want to live the corporate life. I think something that's worth exploring is yes, we may not be working under a manager, we may not be working with a team, but could you still have a performance review with yourself?
Melissa Hartfiel:Can you have?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:it with yourself?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yeah, and I think what I would suggest people maybe trying is can you bring the points that you would if this were to be an actual performance review right, the points of contention that you want to bring up to your manager, what's working well, what's not working well, and take some time to do that reflection whether it be a quarter of reflection, half a year reflection or yearly reflection and then have a dedicated time to sit down with yourself and address those questions, address those points that you do bring up.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:So if there are concerns that you have as an employee, as an in-person, as the only staff, the manager, the everybody right, can you help yourself to, even just by spending time and sitting and acknowledging, yeah, there's some issues happening here, it's not all smooth sailing all of the time, and is there anything I can do within my power and resources to address some of these issues and also to acknowledge the good that has come out of the last period of time? So I would say that was more of a practical practice. I can suggest for anybody who works, you know, on a small team or by themselves, as a creative, to have that.
Melissa Hartfiel:I like that one because I think too, if we had employees and some of us do we wouldn't want to hear that any of our employees are unhappy or struggling or not getting the support they need, and we would take steps to correct that. At least I hope most of us would. So why should it be any different for ourselves?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:So, yeah, great point and I think some other practical practices that is easier said than done, I think include things like are you taking regular breaks? Is it hard for you to get up from your workstation from time to time? And so can you block in some time for fun, for joy, for movement, for connection with others, and do it because I think a lot of people have difficulty taking time away from their work because they feel like it's not enough time or it's a waste of time. But can you acknowledge that?
Melissa Hartfiel:It's cheating. I shouldn't be playing, I should be working. Yeah, absolutely.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:And so if you were again your own boss like taking the lens from being a great manager how can you encourage yourself to take those breaks? Because we know inevitably those will contribute to your success in the long run, your longevity in this creative field. And so taking breaks is not just about the 30 minutes that you spend doing something else. It's about how that's a protective mechanism for things like burnout, for things like being really critical with our work and noticing that, okay, the times that we do step away from our work, there are other meaningful ways we couldn't engage with our life outside of work.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, have a hobby that has nothing to do with your work. I think this is one entrepreneur is really falling too, because every time we have a hobby we're always like, because our natural instinct is to start businesses right. So every time you have a hobby that you start to really enjoy, you start thinking how can somebody from this? And sometimes you just have to say you don't need to make any money from it, you can just do the thing and have fun and enjoy it and let it be your place to escape. And small business people are really good at making excuses for everything.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yeah, so those are two great suggestions, and I think I interrupted you there with your third one.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I think. The third one is I mentioned about taking breaks and I listed some examples. I think one of the really important ones is if the person does not work or maybe even they work in a creative field where it involves movement of the body let's say, a yoga teacher or an instructor it's still very important to engage with your body and move your body in a way that one will induce this. Basically, bring your parasympathetic system online, so the system that regulates, the system that is able to stay in the calm when things are stressful, right. So movement is, I think, really important, and here I want to differentiate movement from exercise.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I'm not encouraging you to go to gyms necessarily. If that's what you love, great. If that's your form of movement, great. But movement can be dancing in your living room, it can be walking your dog, it could be attending to your garden, and those are the things that I think. Through process of colonization, you know things that the core of what it means to be human has been taken away from us. So can you find ways and spaces and times where you can just freely move your body, even taking a bath right, like fully engaging in that movement, I think could be really healing, and I think for me myself it's really important because I sit in an upright position half my day or maybe more, and it's really important to teach my body that this is not all that I do.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yes, yeah, very good advice. I just want to mention something because you talked about, you know, the performance review idea and why it's. You know it's also a good thing to go back and look at how far you've come and the successes you've had and to celebrate those successes. And one of the things I started doing this year that's made a huge difference is I have a planner. Like you know, we all have planner, some kind of planning system mine's paper and pen, but I have this year I started leaving a section of it open where, at the end of the day, I would just write down like things I achieved notes to myself. And then every quarter I go through and I look at that note section and see all the things that I've done. And it's shocking to me almost when I do my quarterly review of like oh my God, I got so much done this quarter. Like I achieve so many things and maybe they're not huge, a lot of them are small, but they accumulate and I think, without writing those down, I would A forget about them, I would totally forget about them and B sitting down to review them once a quarter and reminding myself it's made a huge impact on my mental health this year, like just feeling so much more accomplished and like, yes, I am actually moving forward and there are things to celebrate here. So I think that has been really helpful to me. I don't know if it would help anybody else out there, but it certainly worked for me.
Melissa Hartfiel:So I have one more question for you before we wrap up. As a mental health provider, what are some tips you would give? If there's anybody out there who's looking to start working with somebody, whether it's a therapist or a coach or something along those lines, what are some of the things that you would recommend they look for? Because I think for a lot of us, when it comes to hiring professionals whether it's an accountant, a lawyer, a business coach, a therapist, anything along those lines we don't always know where To start, where to look. So what do you have any tips for people if they're, if they're looking for a little extra support of where they can go to look?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:great question. I think People often compare looking for a therapist as a process of like dating, and it could be really exhausting to find the right fit. Studies have studies have shown that One of the greatest factors that therapy works for somebody is that they have really strong rapport with their therapist. What it essentially means is that there's trust there, there is Accountability there, right and so if that isn't established and it's not likely it's not going to work out long-term. So my question to the person who maybe is seeking for a mental health support, professional support in this realm is what's important for you to have in a therapist? You know, is it somebody who shared similar life story as you, somebody that looks like you, somebody who's also Identifies as a creative? You know what are some of the must-have non-negotiables that you need in a therapist, and then using those as criteria as you look on online directories. So Psychology today is often a place where people look. Another way to explore it's just open up your your local area Google Maps and looking at clinics nearby and Reviewing some of the profiles of therapists. They're although also other directories specific to People of color and therapists of color and trying to connect People I need with a therapist who maybe has a similar cultural background. So those, I say those three areas, would be potential ways to look for help. Maybe it's about having conversations around about with friends or family who has a therapist right?
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:How did you go about finding your therapist and and have you tried out? You know different ones and how do you know it was the right fit? And I think through that, through storytelling and through sharing and also exploring on your own, hopefully you can find a really good fit. And I think it's an innate Knowing when you meet the right person, as you would any other circumstance, when you know it's gonna work out. I feel like it's almost I'm a gut-feeler. Yeah, I would like to say that it's. I think a lot of creatives are in tune with that. So lean into what feels safe, yeah, feels good in your body.
Melissa Hartfiel:Yes, I think that's really good advice, and safe is a good word there. I think cuz.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:I.
Melissa Hartfiel:Therapists are. You know, your accountant, you're showing them all your money. You're lawyer you're showing them all your legal issues. And your therapist you're letting them into, like your head and and those are three very Private areas. So when you're looking for a person to to help you, you want that person who you have that good gut feel about for sure. So, yes, thank you so much for everything that you've shared with us today, because this, this has been a super interesting Conversation. I hope everybody else enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. I certainly got some different perspectives on things, which was super helpful to me. So thank you for that. And Tell us a little bit about where people can find you. You do work one-on-one with clients, but you are in Ontario, so I believe that's you. You only work with clients in Ontario, if I'm correct.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Yes, that's correct. So my registration is is Technically, you know, I can work anywhere in Canada, but my licensing right now only allows me to work in the province of Ontario. So if anyone who's listening out there who resides in Ontario, is looking for mental health therapists, definitely connect with me. My website is my full name, so you tong spelled y u t o n g. Hannah h a n n a h Lynn lin.
Melissa Hartfiel:And we will put a link to that in the show notes for sure. Thank you so much today. This has been great. Really appreciate your time today, Hannah. Thanks so much.
Yu Tong Hannah Lin:Silly.
Melissa Hartfiel:Thank you for this opportunity to talk more about this, because yes, it's a very important topic, yes, and I don't think we talk about it enough, unfortunately, and I know that just because every time we do an episode along these lines, it gets more Listen than anything else. So it's something people definitely want to hear more about and maybe don't always know how to find that help on their own or where to go or how to how to talk about it. So if we can put some information out there that helps all of you and that can maybe spur you on to Creating a better mental health circumstances for yourselves, and I am very happy that we can do that, so this was great. Thank you All. Right, everyone, and that is it for this week. I will be back again in two weeks with another brand new episode and we will talk to you all then. Thanks for listening.
Melissa Hartfiel:Thank you so much for joining us for the and she looked up creative hour. If you're looking for links or resources mentioned in this episode, you can find detailed show notes on our website at and she looked up comm. While you're there, be sure to sign up for a newsletter for more business tips, profiles of inspiring Canadian creative women and so much more. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the show via your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave us a review through iTunes or Apple podcasts. Drop us a note via our website, at and she looked up Com, or come say hi on Instagram at and she looked up. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.