EP145: Own Your Age and Your Wisdom with Zannat Reza

This week, healthy aging advocate Zanna Reza joins the show to talk about shaking up the system so we can grow older on our own terms. In a world where getting older (at any age) can come with a lot of stereotyping and discrimination, we talk about why we, as women, need to own our age - and the wisdom we've earned every day. In this conversation we discuss the importance of staying passionate, curious and creative at every stage in life - and why all humans need to feel a sense of purpose at any age!

Zannat Reza is a healthy aging advocate and the Director of the Future of Aging social impact team at SE Health, a not-for-profit, home health social enterprise.

This episode is brought to you by Fine Lime Designs Illustrations

This is a great episodes for creatives who:

• struggle with appreciating the wisdom they've accumulated - and sharing it with the world
• who worry it's too late to try the next thing
• need a confidence boost 
• are afraid of showing up as their true selves - especially as they get older
• dread the next milestone birthday - be it 30, 40, 50 and beyond.
• are afraid to own their age

For a summary of this episode and all the links mentioned please visit the full show notes at:
Episode 145: Own Your Age and Your Wisdom with Zannat Reza

You can learn more about the work Zannat does at SE Health's Future of Aging website or through her podcast, The Future Age. You can also connect with her on LinkedIn.

You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.

Transcript

Melissa Hartfiel: 0:00

This week's episode of the And She Looked Up podcast is brought to you by Fine Lime Illustrations. If you love quirky, colorful art transformed into fun handmade stationery items pretty much guaranteed to brighten somebody's day that's just what you'll find in my new online shop at finelimeillustrationscom. That's fine, as in I'm fine lime, as in the fruit illustrations. com. Browse the entire collection or sign up for my email list to see some behind the scenes peaks into my studio. You'll also get first notice of new product launches and subscriber only sales, and as an added little bonus, you'll also receive a free coloring sheet to help you relax and de-stress from your day. Now on with the show.

Melissa Hartfiel: 0:58

Welcome to the And She Looked Up podcast. Each week, we sit down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. I'm your host, Melissa Hartfiel, and after leaving a 20 year career in corporate retail, I've been happily self-employed for 12 years. I'm a graphic designer, an illustrator and a multi-six figure year entrepreneur in the digital content space. This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the And She Looked Up podcast.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:46

As always, I'm your host, Melissa, and this week, in keeping with this season's theme of showing up as your true self in your work, we're going to be talking about embracing the wisdom that comes to us with each new day that we spend on this spinning planet. And my guest this week is Zannat Reza, who I have known for a long time and I'm really excited for this conversation. Hello Zanna t, hey Melissa, I am so glad you're here today, but for those of you who may not know her, Zannat is a healthy aging advocate and her mission is to promote health and well-being and to shake up the system so we can grow older on our own terms. And she is also the director of the Future of Aging Social Impact Team at SE Health, which is a not-for-profit home health social enterprise. And so, yes, today we're going to be talking about I don't want to say getting older, necessarily, but learning to embrace the wisdom that comes to us with each day.

Melissa Hartfiel: 2:49

I think I've told this story on the podcast before, but my dentist is. She's so awesome as far as going to the dentist goes, she makes it as good as it can be. But she always talks about this when she talks about looking after your teeth and things as you get older. And she never says getting older. She always says as we get wiser, and I just love the way she reframes that. So that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today. But before we get into that, zana, the first question I ask everyone who comes on the show is did you feel like you were creative as a kid?

Zannat Reza: 3:27

Nope, most definitely not I guess I was always too scared to try new things and my benchmark for creativity was my sister, who's extremely artistic, and I always looked at her. She's younger than me but I'd look and say, wow, she's really creative. And if I can't do that, then I'm not creative. But looking back, I do think there was some creativity in me. I used to enjoy. You know, I was an, I am and was very introverted. I'm kind of ambivert now but I was very introverted. But I used to love drama and acting in play. So I was like OK, thinking back, yeah, you know what that was creative. I really enjoyed that, playing with Lego, all the make believe games. But at the time and thinking back, I'm like, no, really, it was not a creative kid, I was super nerdy.

Melissa Hartfiel: 4:28

Thing is we're all creative. I think just sometimes we don't recognize the things that we enjoy as necessarily being creative. But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's funny. And then we look back on it and we're like, huh, yeah, there's. It's an interesting question that I love asking, and I always have a little bet with myself as to how the guest is going to answer. So you and I knew each other in a past life, where you had a different career. You were a dietitian and you did a lot of community work. That way, you may have seen Zana on TV. She has popped up on television a few times and you have moved into this new role. But before we get into that, tell us a little bit about how you started out. What led you into? Is it dietetics? Is that the right way to say it?

Zannat Reza: 5:18

Dietetics, yeah, so I was thinking about this question. So my journey is really zigzaggy. And so you know, like I said, I was a nerd, I am a nerd, huge science nerd. And so I was like, well, obviously I'm going to do science and undergrad. So I started off in biochemistry because I'm like, love biology, whatever. And then by third year I was like I really do not like these biochem labs. This is a problem, because this, would you know, this would be helpful moving forward.

Zannat Reza: 5:48

So then I thought, well, I like science, I like food, so how about nutrition? And so then I went on to doing a Masters of Community Health, specializing in nutrition, and at the end of that degree they said, hey, you can now apply to be a dietitian. And I thought, great, what is that? Like I really had no idea. I had no idea. So, anyway, I went to fill out all this paperwork and I then became a quote unquote dietitian, but really an accidental dietitian. And while I did my Masters I took a marketing and communications course and I thought I love this, like I love the psychology behind all of this. So then I went on to specialize in media and communications, and part of it was also when I graduated there really weren't a lot of jobs in community health so I stumbled across a position with the social issues marketing agency. So back in the day we call it social marketing, but nothing to do with social media because that wasn't around.

Zannat Reza: 6:52

So I would say that kind of sparked my creativity because I learned a ton about advertising. I learned about the creative process and I was like this is a whole new world. Like for a science nerd like me, this was the first time I even stepped into that world and the learning was amazing. But working at an agency as a junior person is kind of tough A lot of hours, all kinds of drama.

Zannat Reza: 7:20

And then this amazing job popped up with the Food Association and they were looking for someone who had quote unquote some creativity in the nutrition education world and that the main part of the job is to become is to be their media spokesperson. So part of me was like, well, this is a great opportunity. And the other part was like, oh my gosh, what does that mean? Media spokesperson? Like I know nothing about that. Anyway, I jumped into it because it was just the right fit. I got media trained and then I was like, wow, I really love this I really have found you know kind of that acting kind of came in handy for being a media spokesperson.

Melissa Hartfiel: 8:07

I was going to say, as an introvert, that was that. Did it push you outside of your comfort zone? That would have pushed me, oh yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah.

Zannat Reza: 8:15

My very first interview was on Breakfast Television with Kevin Frankish. You got to be up at 6 AM or something ridiculous. I was so nauseous I thought how is this going to work? I got some really bad advice from the PR people. I said, hey, I don't know if I'm going to remember all my key points. Can I put some on Q-cards and stick it on the table away from the camera? They said, yeah, yeah, go ahead and do that. I did that, of course.

Zannat Reza: 8:48

Kevin Frankish, who's an amazing funny guy, great personality. We started off with what are you here to talk about? Blah, blah, blah. Then he says to the camera he's like hold on, I got to show you something. He rips off my Q-cards and he's like look, what is your third point, zana? I was just like, oh my gosh, I've no idea what my third point was. I said I don't know, but here's what I can tell you. I just had to think on my feet and go with it Because it was just so funny.

Zannat Reza: 9:21

It actually added a lot of flavor. At the end of that I'm like, okay, if I could make it through that interview. I'm okay, I can do this, but yeah, it was totally out of my comfort zone, but it's one of these things where the more you do it, the more comfortable it gets. I do like a bit of an adrenaline rush, so I'm not using my fire for sure. Yeah, honestly, yeah, sorry. Getting back to my unorthodox journey, I did that media communications nutrition for quite a while when I had my first child. I actually left my full-time job and I ran my own business for well over 12 years and it was kind of nice because I could pick my own hours, pick my clients, the people I don't really like. I don't want to work with them. I kind of got to that point.

Zannat Reza: 10:14

But then, as I did more of this media communications, it then became into this world of the influencer and I think that's really where our paths crossed, yeah, and I was like influencer, what is this? Before I was one of the very few people doing what I did, being in the nutrition world, but then all of a sudden there's this whole crop of quote, unquote younger people coming up and that was a whole different dynamic and I thought I didn't get into this to be an influencer and I don't want to spend 20 hours of my day building my brand. No, I don't think so. The other part of it was I got to the point where I was like, ok, I've been doing this thing for 20 years or so and it was kind of getting old.

Zannat Reza: 11:09

Like, as much as I love the media thing, I really did love it. I thought, ok, and it allowed me to express some creativity on pitching to producers and all that kind of stuff. I thought there's something missing here and I think part of it is people were so fixated on food, but when we think about living a healthy life, it's more than just food, right, it's like moving more, stressing less, pushing your brain power, being creative. Right. Being creative is actually very good for healthy aging.

Melissa Hartfiel: 11:43

Where did the opportunity come up? Because yeah.

Zannat Reza: 11:48

So then what happened is OK after I realized this is not the space I want to be in.

Zannat Reza: 11:53

I'm done with sort of that food and whatever communications. I looked around I'm like I need to pivot, but I need to pivot in a way that it makes sense. I still wanted to do something around health communications and I got really lucky. I joined the Amazing Communications team at Kaihai, which is the Canadian Institute for Health Information. I learned a ton, especially how things work in a large organization. That was completely new to me. The people were great and it just really gave me time to catch my breath and really help me pivot in a good way. But in the meantime, I was looking at what are the opportunities out there.

Zannat Reza: 12:34

So in 2018, I attended the Global Conference on Aging. It was in Toronto and I went there and I was like, oh my gosh, this is great, these are my people. I feel like I finally found my people, and so I quickly signed up to be the Toronto Ambassador for Aging 2.0, which is a global network of innovators, and then really just looked around to see what are the opportunities in this space. And I got really lucky because SE Health had this consulting contract position where it was to do quote unquote stakeholder engagement for their courage, action for better aging initiative. So I thought I'm going to put my hat in the ring, we'll see how it goes had a great conversation with my current VP and it just felt right. And when I joined I just loved it. And it's funny because, for an introvert, I actually do enjoy talking to people Because it's really more about asking them questions and letting them talk and less about me. So that was kind of my very bizarro journey to where I am.

Zannat Reza: 13:43

And then once I was part of SE Health, then the aging team took place. It's only been around for a year and a half or so and my VP was, like, do you want to join this team? I'm like, yes, I do. And so that's how all of that happened. So if you asked me five years ago, where are you going to be in five years or where do you see yourself? You just can't ask those kind of questions, at least I don't think, because it's hard to plot these things out, right?

Melissa Hartfiel: 14:12

It is. You never know what's going to fall in your lap or what's going to pique your interest. So what is it that you actually do now with this new team that you're on?

Zannat Reza: 14:22

Well, we do a lot of things but we really look at OK in the broad aging space. So we're all about social impact. So we're not in the day-to-day care delivery that SE Health does and has been doing for 115 years. It's a fantastic organization. So we're in their future-bating social impact team. So we look at the broader ecosystem of what are the big challenges that they're related to aging, what are the big opportunities and because we're not for profit, pretty much everything that we do in partnership with others it's also very hard for one single player to tackle these big issues. So if we look at where we play, we play actually globally. We're one of the few Canadian groups who are part of the UN Open-ended Working Group on Aging and that's all about the human rights of older adults and sort of that ageism piece speaks to that piece, which is if older adults had a convention that protected their human rights, then maybe we wouldn't have things like ageism. We'd kind of keep it and reign it in a bit. Then we look at things nationally, so across the country, and this is really where the courage initiative comes in, which is to say, most people want to live at home as they get older, and especially after COVID. I don't know who actually wants to go into an institution. Obviously, there's a role for people who need a lot of help. But you can make the argument. You can actually get that type of long-term care at home. But anyway, courage is all about we need to respect what people want.

Zannat Reza: 16:04

So, while the overwhelming number of people want to live at home, when you look at where government funding goes, it's two institutions, so it's kind of like OK, there's a huge disconnect here and people have been talking about this for over 30 years. Why hasn't the system changed? And a few years ago our former CEO had a conversation with the CEO of Covenant Health in Alberta and they said I think the part of the reason is we're all working in silos. You've got all these little voices saying to government hey, can we do this? Can we change the system?

Zannat Reza: 16:41

But what we really need is one coordinated, cohesive voice and that's really the courage coalition, and I've been privileged to work on this project for two years. It's a slow process because you've got to bring in, bring on all these partners and it's not just organizations, it's also like everyday people like you meet and people listening. We need to start a social movement to say, hey, someone's got to pay attention here because our population is growing older and we have certain needs. We want to live at home, but who's doing the yard work? Can I get some help with my groceries, like these kind of day-to-day things that would actually help people live at home. There's just not a lot of support.

Melissa Hartfiel: 17:26

Yes, so in my case, my dad actually lives with me. He had a traumatic brain injury about 13 years ago, so he's very capable of looking after himself. He just doesn't have any short-term memory, so that causes its own set of challenges. But navigating the system when he was first going through his recovery and figuring out what was going to happen with him next was just a nightmare. And all I could think about is one day I'm going to be old, this is going to be me trying to figure this out.

Melissa Hartfiel: 18:02

And it was kind of scary to see just I don't even know the right words to say it, but it was disheartening. I guess is the best thing, because I could see so many ways that he could have a very productive life, but it wasn't going to happen. If he was in an institution, he was too fit and too healthy and too capable for that to happen. But at the same time, with no short-term memory, he couldn't be on his own without someone kind of just keeping an eye on things, making sure he remembered to turn the stove off and things like that, and there didn't seem to be a space in the middle. And I just remember thinking, wow, one day this will be me? And what if there's nobody to advocate for me? Because he at least had his kids and I don't have kids. So that was a big, big, scary thing for me and there just didn't seem to be a lot of resources.

Melissa Hartfiel: 18:59

And one of the things that kept coming up over and over again because he was 70 at the time that he had this brain injury was that well, he's old, but he was in university when this happened. He was active, he was doing all these things that you wouldn't necessarily associate with a 70-year-old man, but he was out there doing them and they didn't seem at. Anyway. I'm going off on a bit of a thing here, because this is something that hits very close to home, but yeah, I just felt like there has to be a better way, but I had no idea where to go or how to make that happen. So just hearing that there's people out there who are actively working to bring about some change is very heartening instead of disheartening.

Zannat Reza: 19:49

Yeah, I mean. First of all, I have to say your dad is lucky to have you. When we started on this courage journey, did a fair bit of research to see you know what are those things that are going to help people live at home. I don't like the term age in place, like I don't know, like literally aging is living right, like we're all living, we're aging.

Melissa Hartfiel: 20:11

right now, we're all aging, since we're born.

Zannat Reza: 20:13

Right, like every minute, every second, we are aging, but all to say, and what you're talking about is, you know, as a caregiver, care partner, having to navigate this and not having supports, like it's a bit of a nightmare. And so when we've done research on what's going to help people, you know you come across. We need age-friendly communities, age-friendly neighborhoods, we need care to come to someone's home. You know the caregiver piece comes into play. But also with people having fewer children, or if they have children or relatives, like people are spread out across the country, right, so there's going to be a big shift from informal caregivers like yourself to more formal caregivers, and that's like a whole other conversation around. You know, how do we do that? Like that really is a whole other. That's a whole other episode. But to your point, you know, one of the reasons that there's such a disconnect between what people want and where we spend money has to do with systemic ageism, because clearly people in power have decided that this is not a group of people who are super important. Right, you've hit a certain age, you're just going to die anyway, so why would we spend money on you? We want to fit you and warehouse you in a certain building or whatever. That's where you're going to go. But again, what about people's dignity and the right to grow older on their own terms? And that's really where courage is going. So we're really going to ramp up and invite everyone to be part of this movement for change, because it's time, and I think COVID really has been that tipping point Now, jumping off sort of that systemic ageism piece.

Zannat Reza: 22:03

Another big initiative that I do with the future of aging team is just combating ageism in general, and so ageism is age discrimination. It's how you feel towards people, how you act towards people, and it's basically being judged on your age, and I think women in particular experience that a lot more. Right, your looks, your this, your that, whatever. So, yeah, ageism is a huge, huge issue. People tolerate it. Right, like oh, you know, you're over the hill, you're whatever, can't teach an old dog new tricks, or I'm having a senior moment, like all these things, they're just. And you get those birthday cards, like, once you hit what, is it 40 or something? The birthday cards are the worst. Right, like, like, really. Anyway, so, combating ageism, and I think that, especially for women, because we feel it more, I feel like kind of now is the time that more and more people are not taking it, or there's at least a bit more awareness that, okay, we got to kind of tackle this head on right, like enough with the discrimination.

Melissa Hartfiel: 23:19

Absolutely. So that was kind of where I was going to go with this is that you know, most of the people who listen to this podcast are women and it skews a little bit older. So we all, you know we're I'm well over the 40 milestone and a lot of the people who listen are kind of older millennials or Gen X. You and I are both Gen X I think we're very close in age, if I remember correctly and there's a lot of apprehension, I think, especially when you're a woman and you're aging, because so much whether we like to talk about this or not or say it so much of how we're judged is our appearance. It's not right, but it is what it is and there's just that feeling.

Melissa Hartfiel: 24:06

You know, I started growing up my gray hair when I turned 50, or actually I just prior to that, because it was still the pandemic and nobody was getting there. So it's like might as well do it now. But I have other friends who are doing that and it's very traumatic for them, like it's this piece of their identity and they're worried about the judgment that's going to come with it. But I also think that there's this group of Gen X, where we're a generation that doesn't get talked about very much, sort of stuck between millennials and boomers. But I feel like we're always sort of talked about as, like the. I read somewhere the other day we were the last generation of feral children, but you know just this idea that we were very self-sufficient, we grew up very self-sufficient. And do you think there's a different attitude with this group and the millennials coming up behind where, yeah, you know what, I am not going to age like that, that's not going to be how it's going to work for me, or do you think there's some of that happening?

Zannat Reza: 25:06

Or do you see it Possibly? I mean, I don't have any hard data or research to suggest that I do feel like, yes, we're both Gen X and I have to say so, I'm 51. And people are like, oh, you don't look it. I'm like, okay, well, that's fair. But someone said actually for them to say you don't look, it is actually ages.

Melissa Hartfiel: 25:27

I'm like it is.

Zannat Reza: 25:28

Okay, I guess. I guess, because then they're looking at someone else, say, oh yeah, you definitely look 51, right, but it's funny. When I did turn 51 this summer, someone said oh well, always your birthday, that must be another 29. And I thought, why? No, I'm okay telling you here's my age, but that's only been recent. Like before, I'd be like oh yeah, I'm in my 40s or whatever. If you think I'm in my 30s, that's great. I would never correct anyone. But now I'm like no, you need to own your age because we need to normalize getting older, and I think that's part of it. Right, it's like age is a disease. You know what I mean. Like you're getting older, there's some crazy disease happening here. You know what I mean.

Zannat Reza: 26:15

But in terms of the generational perspective, I don't know. I mean you also can't say this whole generation thinks this way, right? Yes, I don't know, that's just my take on it, but I feel like we're starting to get more role models and celebrities who are rocking it. So I think there's that piece of it, because think about the Super Bowl halftime show a couple of years ago. It was JLo, who I think was 50 at the time, shakira, who was late 40s, and they just flew people away right Like. That was amazing. So we're starting to see that kind of a thing where it's like okay, people are achieving things, right Like. And I think as more and more people start to speak out, it helps to change things, change the narrative of what it means to age, right. And so people have also said well, the word aging is, there's a stigma attached to it, which is fair. But then I think by using it more and more in a normalized way, you actually strip some of that stigma away.

Melissa Hartfiel: 27:26

That's a good way to look at it. Yeah, definitely. So one of the things that I'm focusing on with the season of the podcast, as I mentioned at the beginning, is that we're working to show that it's okay to allow ourselves to show up as our true selves at any age. So this isn't just about whether you're 20 or 40 or 60 or 80 or whatever, but as we get older. So for me it's been very interesting. On the one hand, I have no problem with being the age that I am, it doesn't bother me, I love it. The comfort I feel with who I am Like. I feel like I know myself now which, in your 20 and your 30s, I think you're kind of getting to know yourself. You're figuring it out. You're not, but it becomes clearer and clearer as you get older.

Melissa Hartfiel: 28:13

But there is also this fear that, like is anybody going to listen to me? Am I becoming irrelevant? I saw TikTok the other day, where they talk about people in their 50s who were technophobes and I was like no, and yet we're carrying around this very valuable wealth of knowledge in our brains that we earned, we learned it, we experienced it. So there's this whole question and it's a big question that I'm gonna throw out there. But how do we get comfortable with embracing all that experience and not being afraid to stand up and share it or to let it shine through our work or our creativity, through our day-to-day life, without that nagging voice in the back of our head that's saying is anybody gonna listen to you? Kind of thing?

Zannat Reza: 29:07

Yeah, I guess this is the part where it's very easy to say own your age, but there's so many other factors right.

Zannat Reza: 29:13

People are saying stuff to you, people are ignoring you. I know in some of the conversations that I've had with older adults as part of my work, I heard time and again from older women, so these would be women in their 70s and beyond. I just feel invisible, is what they said, and I thought, wow, I've not experienced that. But for them it's like oh yeah, I was trying to do this, trying to do that, and people just were like, okay, just not really listening, right? So part of the being comfortable is also looking at yourself inwardly and saying am I biased against myself? Am I putting limits on myself? Like, oh, I'm too old to do this or I can't dress a certain way because of my age, right? So being agist against other people is one thing, but you can also be agist against yourself now and also your future self. So I think the first step really is self reflection. Are you giving off vibes or are you saying certain things where it's like I can't do this? I'm over the head, like what's your vibe, right? Like, so it has to start internally, but then it's also seeing and recognizing externally and calling it out, and I think as more and more people start calling it out. It's just gonna create that awareness. But I mean, I don't know about you, but certainly when I hit 40, I really felt like it was quite liberating. I would just say stuff. I mean obviously not in a rude way, but I would just say it like it is right, like I really didn't care at the time or I still don't. I'm like it is what it is and it's okay to disagree on something, respectfully right. So I mean I don't have the answers. Apart from, you also need to seek like-minded people. So there's a group on Instagram called the 50 Forward Club and Lisa Murphy headed this up and it's great and she showcases all these amazing quotes and achievements of women who are 50 and above, who are doing amazing things. So there's that sort of inspirational part of it, too, of being with a community of people who are like-minded. So that could be a place.

Zannat Reza: 31:35

But I have to say, when we look at ageism and what like, what are those strategies to combat ageism? One of the ones which is really quite powerful is what they call quote unquote intergenerational initiatives, meaning you wanna hang out and do things with people of different generations and by doing that you're actually gonna help smash these ageist stereotypes, right? So here's an example. I have recently taken up pickleball and I was saying this to someone and they were like pickleball, who are you playing with? Like 80 year olds? I'm like no, but even if I was, why is that a problem?

Zannat Reza: 32:14

I'm afraid, like okay, I don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, I don't know where I was going with that, but it's one of these things where you wanna play with or hang out with people cooking club or whatever book club with different people and I definitely see it with my own children. Like as much as they, when they hang out with their grandparents or when they're hearing stories, they give them that appreciation for, wow, they actually, like you said, they have all this wisdom, they have all this experience. And just a few months ago for my dad, he was talking about the very first time when he was a child, he encountered ice and he lived in India at the time and he's like the first time I had ice. And the kids were just like wow, this is really cool. Like you didn't have ice in your fridge, like you didn't have a fridge at the time. But you know what I mean. Like it just makes them appreciate A what they have but B that people have different experiences and you can learn so much from all of that.

Melissa Hartfiel: 33:20

Yeah, definitely I. If I could have dinner with anyone on the planet, it would be all four of my grandparents. They're not with us anymore, but I just feel like I squandered so much time with them, not asking them all the questions I have now about their lived experience. And, yeah, didn't appreciate it as much when I was younger as I do now, but now I wish I could hear all those stories. So, yes, I think intergenerational helps. I think you wanna do it from both ends, right? You wanna talk to people who are older than you, but you also want to be around people who are younger than you and I don't know. There's so much to be learned from both ends of the spectrum.

Zannat Reza: 34:08

Yeah, I totally agree. And when we talk about wisdom, it's not just wisdom of the older people, but younger people as well, a certain kind of wisdom right. And sometimes my kids will say things I'm like, wow, that's really insightful, like I don't think I would have thought of that at your age. So, yeah, it goes both ways absolutely right. And so when we look at some of the more sort of formal programs to help, there's these like a lot of library programs I hate this term, but it's like cyber seniors program, so you help older adults learn technology, and then it's kind of that two-way mentorship in a way right.

Zannat Reza: 34:49

So yeah, there's those formal programs, but even just in your neighborhood having informal conversations with neighbors or helping them out or whatever. But you're right, it's all ages, it's not just for the older or whatever it really is for everyone it does.

Melissa Hartfiel: 35:06

it makes for a much more vibrant life when you have all different kinds of people in it.

Zannat Reza: 35:12

And you know the other thing. So I host the Future Age podcast for it's part of my job, and last season I had the pleasure of interviewing Carl Onaray. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's a TED Talk speaker, broadcaster. He's Canadian but he lives in the UK and one of his books is called Boulder, kind of like, was it Boulder? But it's like rethinking aging or a radical rethink on aging, something like that.

Zannat Reza: 35:46

Anyway, so as part of our conversation we talked about entrepreneurship and we said you know, when people think entrepreneur, successful entrepreneur, they're thinking about a 20-year-old kid in their garage or the basement. But when you look at research, actually the most successful entrepreneurs are above the age of 40, then you know. Then we talked about okay. So let's think about, say, julia Child she published her first cookbook when she was 50, vera Wang, you know fashion industry she was above the age of 40, and if you're into comics and Marvel and all of that, stan Lee published his first comic at the age of 40, and you know, the list goes on. And so it's not just also when they started, but continue to work right.

Zannat Reza: 36:33

So I love David Attenborough he's 92, 93, and he's just. You know, there's no barriers for it, there's no boundary. So it's like if you think you can do something, I mean, obviously there can be physical limitations, but there are ways to get there. And this 65 being this magical number to I don't know what. You know, it's not age, it's really a state of mind.

Melissa Hartfiel: 37:00

Yes, absolutely. There is a fantastic book. I don't know if you've read it, but I think you'd probably really enjoy it. If you haven't, I think it's called A Glorious Freedom by Lisa Congdon, and she's an artist based on the West Coast here. She's in Oregon, I believe, now and she didn't really become an artist until she turned 40, and she wrote this book.

Melissa Hartfiel: 37:25

Basically, she gathered stories of women through the centuries mostly current, but women from the past as well who didn't start the thing that they're famous for or well known for until they were 40. And what was really fascinating about this book was that most of these women lived well into their 90s and were active, doing the thing they were known for up until they couldn't do it anymore. And I just thought, like, like the connection is just it's right there in front of me on the pages of this book. Right, because when you find the thing that lights up your soul and you are excited about doing it every day, you want to stick around, because you want to keep doing it. You know, like it just that's there's. It was such an obvious connection between a long life and doing things that you're passionate about, and one of the things I you know we mentioned entrepreneurs and how most of the well-known ones are or the successful ones are in their 40s and it's kind of this whole thing we talked about it briefly before we came on to record was a lot of women when they get to their 40s and then their 50s, and they're, they're.

Melissa Hartfiel: 38:42

They've had a career, they still have a career, but maybe it's not really doing it for them anymore, or it was just the job that they had to pay the bills. Their kids are leaving home, and now they're, they're at this stage where they want to try something new or they need to fill the time, or. But there there's, there's, there's a block there of like am I too old? Is it too late? I'm 40, like as if 40 is the end point, you know, and and how to? I don't know what can we do or say to kind of get ourselves over that roadblock and realize that you can have another 40, 50 or more years ahead of you, more, more years ahead of you than you have behind you, and so why is it so hard for us to start something new? I don't know.

Zannat Reza: 39:36

Yeah, I mean a lot of it is confidence, right. So if you haven't done a paid work and you were working, being the CEO of your house and managing children, whatever you'd definitely take a confidence hit. And I see that in my neighborhood For sure, like, I know many, many amazing women who've taken a career pause, but not to say that they were sitting, do nothing right and it is. It is that right. So it's for some of them, they found, like there's certain coaching groups or they worked with a coach. For others, it's just finding the right people and having those connections. But yeah, to your point, I mean, part of the confidence hit is society telling you that, wow, you've hit 40 and you're a woman. Wow, really, what more is there? Right, look at the ads. Like, some of these ads of these luxury brands, they have 16 year olds or 18 year olds. I'm like they can't afford the stuff that they're modeling. Like, let's get real here, right? So there are some brands that are starting to get smart about, you know, actually showing older people because, face, let's face it they have the money right. Like, yeah, they have the money to spend where the 18 year old wearing this luxury whatever watch doesn't. So brands are starting to get smarter.

Zannat Reza: 41:04

But sorry, going back to your point about women in the workforce and whatever, you're absolutely right, like if you find kind of that purpose or sort of passion, then yeah, like this is something that you're going to run and go for it, but it's allowing yourself to be open to that and not again thinking I've hit 40 or 45, I don't know what I'm going to do, like I'm done, right. So I'll give you an example there's a good friend of mine. She's in the neighborhood and she's always wanted to write and illustrate a book and she finally did. So she's been thinking about this for 20 years. She finally did. Her girls are at university and publish her book at the age of 55 and is loving it and is doing a book tour and I'm just so happy for her. And now she's like, oh, I can't wait to do my next book. I'm like this is great, right. Like you've found your fire, right. So I would say and obviously some people have that privilege of looking around to see oh, what is my passion? I go run with it. Other people obviously right, you've got to earn and be self-sustaining.

Zannat Reza: 42:26

But that actually brings up a really interesting point, which is because women face ageism a lot more than men. This actually does have a huge impact on their financial well-being and we know that women, like we're living longer, right? So I happen to look up our longevity stats. So someone right now who is 65, the life expectancy is they would live to about 87. So this is for women 87. So people say you know our age, we could live well into our 90s. So if you're working like earning an income at 65, you better have a lot of savings to make a living A lot of money, yes, a lot of money.

Zannat Reza: 43:11

I'm going to tell you that's not going to be me. So I feel like you know we need to think through some of this, and that's part of flipping the system is stop telling people or giving them cues that 65 and you're done. It's like done, doing what? Like what's happening for the next 30 years, to your point. And there are groups cropping up that are talking about the next act, like what is it now? And for some people it's like okay, I did work that I didn't hugely love, but it paid the bills. But now it's the third act, which is what is that purpose? What is now going to give me meaning? And you know that.

Zannat Reza: 43:51

And also finding those social connections, because that's one of the other things the biggest predictor of your longevity and how healthy you're going to be as you grow older are those social connections, which is shocking to me. Coming from a nutrition background, I'm like what? It's not about eating five vegetables a day. It is partly right, you got to also eat better, but yeah, if you're socially isolated, it really does impact your health tremendously. So that BlueZone's docuseries I thought that was really interesting where they travel around the world and look at hotspots, where there's the most centenarians. So there are hundreds of them.

Melissa Hartfiel: 44:34

Oh, yes, I think yeah.

Zannat Reza: 44:37

So if they traveled around and the upshot of it was these are remote communities where there's very little technology, so it's not really the real world, right. But having said that, they have managed to kind of engineer that in Loma Linda, California. But what they have found is kind of these four key drivers of longevity so eating better, more plant-based moving, naturally. So they're like look, none of these Okinawans in Japan are going to the gym every day. Right, they're not, but what they are doing is walking right In the community. They're going to visit people or as part of whatever it is they're continuing to do as they get older. No one's retired.

Zannat Reza: 45:24

Everyone has a role to play in their community and that being part of a community, that sense of belonging, that's a huge, huge driver of healthy aging. So and it's fascinating because you can see these trends in many of these BlueZone so it's not like you need to go move to these places, but it's just the people are slowing down, right. It's not all zipping around and driving your kids to 10 different activities a week. That's not their culture, right. So I think we also have to keep some of that in mind as well. It's like, what is your rich life? And I don't mean financially rich.

Melissa Hartfiel: 46:08

So maybe, instead of retiring, it is, like you said, your next act or finding your next purpose. I think that's what we all need. We need to feel like we have a purpose, but our purpose can change as we get older. It can be different things, right, so what's your next purpose? So, yes, that was a very interesting documentary. I did see it and I'll see you in 18. Yeah, it's just fascinating and that was very much the truth. The Japanese group they, like you said everyone in the community had a purpose. They had something that they did to keep that community thriving. And when you think about the amount of stress we put on ourselves like that can't be good for health.

Zannat Reza: 46:56

No, no for sure not, and you know it's a term retirement, I think when you need to retire, retire, retire Like I don't know what this means. I mean younger, be like retirement, 65, it sounds great, can't wait. But now I'm just like this makes no sense to me because you could live at least 20, 25 years beyond and, apart from the financial stuff, what would you actually do? Right, like, unless you're super wealthy and are playing golf and doing going on cruises, like what would you actually do? And this social participation being part of the community, again, that is so important? And older people need to be allowed to play a role in community and not just sort of shut out to say, okay, run along, play your whatever games, bingo at the community center, like it's, that's not what it is Right.

Zannat Reza: 47:48

So you know, in one of my podcast guests there was actually the Future of Work was an episode, and I spoke to Lisa Taylor of the Challenge Factory and this was fascinating Because she said where did this 65 age come from? And apparently it was in the 1930s depression area in the US. I think it was at Franklin Roosevelt or whoever was like, okay, the average life expectancy then was 62. So they put in quote, unquote retirement at 65. So in case you made it past 62, you had a bit of a you know kind of a financial buffer there, right, well it's.

Zannat Reza: 48:30

You know, almost 100 years later, things have changed. So this 65 is so completely arbitrary. And to your point like, yeah, we all need a purpose, we need to have some meaning in life and as people get older, that's more about giving back to the community and that social impact and doing good. Like you, look at, say, bill Gates. He's doing amazing work around the world and you know, would he like, was this his thing 40 years ago? No, but it is now. Yeah, and you don't need to be a Bill Gates, obviously, to do good work, but that's a whole other conversation.

Melissa Hartfiel: 49:10

But, anyway.

Zannat Reza: 49:11

But you know, I'm saying like it's like what, what is that thing, like what's that connection? And it's really also about finding like-minded people. They do exist. You just kind of have to find them and you do champions for one another.

Melissa Hartfiel: 49:25

Yes, yes, exactly, and make the make the effort, be the person who says hello, I think. And just to your point about, like you know, life expectancy and things, I heard an interview this was a couple of years ago and I wish I could remember who it was with, but he was saying that they firmly believe that the first person to live to 125 has been born. So, like you know, that life expectancy is probably going to continue to increase. So for people who are younger, you know, 100 could be a very attainable age for for a lot of young people out there. And I watched a.

Melissa Hartfiel: 50:10

There's a documentary being made with Canadian women who served during World War II and they were interviewing four of these women. All of them were three of them were 100 or over and the fourth one was 98 or 99. And they were just amazing women. They were so incredibly vibrant and just super thrilled to be talking about this work that they did. But, yeah, I just thought, wow, you know, if I am that together and excited about life when I am 100, like I really need to think about that's that's 50 years away from me or 49 years away from me, and like that's a long time. What do. I want to fill that time with you, know, and feel like it's worth it, like I. So I think we have to kind of rethink this whole getting older process, because it's totally there's so much that we could be out there doing and having a good time and exploring new things.

Melissa Hartfiel: 51:18

And maybe that's the way to look at it is as you, as you do, get older, not only do you have all this extra wisdom that you've earned and learned and everything, but now you have this freedom to do things that maybe you couldn't have done 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. So let's fill those days up with with all those fun things that, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Zannat Reza: 51:45

You know it's interesting. You sent me a question before this chat about what is success, what does that mean to you? And so I came across an illustration. It was a pie chart on LinkedIn. It said here's what you think success looks like your job salary, right, like. And I was like yeah, actually when I was younger that's exactly what I thought, actually not that long ago, but anyway.

Zannat Reza: 52:10

But really, what a success is is, sure, a job title and a salary, but it's also your physical health, it's your mental health, it's the ability to have free time, it's the ability, you know, to connect with friends and family and have meaning and purpose and like all these other things, and I'm like that is success. So, even if you're in a job where you're like this is not my passion, well, hopefully you've got time outside of that to then dive into your passion, whatever that is right, like being part of the community, giving back or whatever it is. So you know, in my kind of ideal world and you're talking about kids born today could live into their hundreds. Maybe we're also slowly moving towards like a Star Trek kind of world. You know I mean here's my science nerd stuff coming out, but you know what I mean. Like who's retired on Star Trek? I don't know anyone's retired, right? Like they're all, like some of these species are 200, 300 years old, but you know what I'm saying. Like we kind of need to evolve in a certain direction where everyone has a say and a role to play, no matter your age.

Zannat Reza: 53:20

Like age really should be irrelevant, right? And something else that you mentioned and it sparked the thought which is learning and exploring. So lifelong learning this is a thing and we should be learning at every age. It's not just for kids who are in school or now you're at university, like that's, that's very 20th century thinking. Now the learning is all your life. And so you have countries like Singapore where part of their quote unquote aging plan is lifelong learning, and they make it really easy for people at any age to either go to university or learn in other ways. Like people are constantly learning and that's how you're going to keep your brain sharp and healthy. And yeah, so your point about exploring you can explore in so many different ways.

Melissa Hartfiel: 54:16

Yeah, absolutely. I mentioned that my dad was in university when he had his brain injury and I don't remember what he paid, but the province of BC makes it extremely accessible for anyone over the age of 65 to go to university, and I don't think it was free, but he certainly was not paying anywhere near full tuition. So, but I don't think people necessarily know those things. Those opportunities are out there, so you do have to poke around and look for them. But yeah, so I guess to wrap this up, I will just mention actually we have a couple of episodes that, if this topic really interests you, we did one with Sharon Marie White a few years ago. She's a country and Western singer, songwriter who went back for her next act to and the music industry. The popular music industry certainly has some ageism challenges, but she tackled them head on and she's doing very well, which is so exciting to see.

Melissa Hartfiel: 55:24

And we also did another episode with Liliana Tomassini, who started out as a computer software programmer in the 1970s one of the first women to be in that field and now she's a grandma and she's writing children's books and doing really well with that as well. So two women who just created a second chapter for themselves, or a third chapter or fourth, and there's so many opportunities to do that. But creativity this is a podcast where we talk to creatives. We are about creativity. A lot of the people who are listening work in creative fields and let's talk about that as part of a healthy aging journey, because I think creativity plays a huge role in how we grow older and what we choose to fill our time with.

Zannat Reza: 56:18

Yeah, for sure. I think there's so many ways of being creative. As I mentioned, as a child, I always thought creative meant having the ability to draw, and it's not just that, it's watercolor painting.

Zannat Reza: 56:31

Yes, that's right. Oh gosh, that's very intimidating for me, but the whole nurturing your creativity, no matter in what way, is not only great for your mental health, but it's also great for your brain health. It just unlocks different parts of your brain and, again, creativity also allows you to connect with other people. So I think being creative and nurturing all of that is one of the keys to healthy aging for sure, similar to learning, create like, go forth and create right, like I would say that if you want to live a healthy life. So, whether that's gardening or painting or building like whatever it is, yeah, creativity, that's what we should be doing, for sure.

Melissa Hartfiel: 57:19

Yeah, no, I agree. And if you you know a lot of us were already creative that that means you can try other types of creative endeavors. So if you're a painter, maybe you want to try your hand at writing poetry. If you're a writer, maybe you want to experiment with woodworking or something, or there's so many different avenues that you can go down that with. And I think it's all about curiosity at the end of the day. I think, at the end of the day, be curious about trying new things, because you never know what's going to click with you, and I always find that the people who are most interesting to talk to at any age are the people who are curious about how the world works and what's happening out there.

Zannat Reza: 58:04

Absolutely, and that's all part of that lifelong learning and that newness, because that's what our brains need, is that newness? So you're right, if you're creative in one area, you're learning something else. Then different neurons get fired, all those neural paths, all those neural paths, the billions of nerve cells that we have, like all of that, yeah, absolutely 100%. And even if you don't feel that you're creative like some, like me, I think I'm very limited in many different ways, but it's also being okay with that. Right, just go out and explore, as you say. Yeah, absolutely, at any age.

Zannat Reza: 58:52

And one of the things if you were calling that docu-series and just when I've listened to interviews of people who are in their 90s and 100s, the other part of it is just not worrying so much, just be happy, which I know is very simplistic, but I think some of it is just letting things slide. Just let go. Okay, just move on. Right, which I think is a difficult. But I was just amazed at how many people said I just don't worry, I don't know what that's like, but I hope to get there.

Melissa Hartfiel: 59:29

I always think to myself if there's one piece of advice I could go back and give 20-year-old Melissa, it would be exactly that Just stop worrying All those things you worried about in your 20s and your 30s. Almost none of them happened. And stuff is going to happen and you learn that as you get older. Like, life happens, bad things happen, but you know what Almost always we get through them Like, and there's no point worrying about something that hasn't happened or that might happen or that you know. I do think that's been one of the really positive things about getting older for me is just learning to just let it go. Yeah, Easier said than done, I know, and different personalities approach things differently, but oh my God, the amount of time I spent worrying in my 20s and 30s was ridiculous. Like how productive could I have been if I had just stopped worrying about things that never happened Exactly.

Zannat Reza: 1:00:31

Well, I read something recently which made me pause and it was like, okay, you can worry, but how is that productive? Like, what is the end result of that worrying? Like if you actually took action, then you could see something, and I thought that's actually a really good point. What is the end result of worrying? It's for me. I was just really stressed.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:00:49

Yeah, I was stressed out all the time because I was worried. Yeah, another thing that kind of gave me a moment to think last week was somebody sent me a meme and I think I shared it on my Instagram account. I can't remember about how to our dogs, we're the 500 year old elves in their story. You know, the, the, the, the, and I just thought that's such an interesting way to look at it because, yeah to to an animal that lives 10 to 15 years, comparing themselves to somebody who lives to be 80 or 90, we, yeah, we're. We're these wise elves who have seen so much, and it just it was a different way to think about it because it's a different perspective, right.

Zannat Reza: 1:01:40

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. Yeah, I guess I would say, you know, if I had to, you know, here's sort of like the sign off, which is number one own your age, right, Like don't be afraid of saying I, you know, I'm Xana and I'm blank years old. Like it is somewhat liberating. And also, you're never too old to try new things. You're never too old.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:02:09

Yeah, Absolutely Two very good key points there. Xana, thank you so much for coming on this show today. It was such a pleasure to talk to you. It's been a long time since we've chatted and it was really nice to to have a conversation today. I really appreciate it, yeah thank you for being here.

Zannat Reza: 1:02:27

Well, thank you, I really appreciate the invitation, yeah, and it's been an absolute pleasure.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:02:34

Awesome. So, everyone, thank you so much for joining us this week, and we'll leave links to all the things that we talked about in today's show notes so that you can check them out. We talked a little about a few books and some some documentaries and a few other things, so we'll leave links to all of that as well as the episodes I mentioned, we'll leave a link to Xana's podcast as well so you can have a listen to that, and that is it for me this week. I'll be back again in two more weeks with another brand new episode and we'll talk to you all then.

Melissa Hartfiel: 1:03:13

Thank you so much for joining us for the Anshi LookDepth Creative Hour. If you're looking for links or resources mentioned in this episode, you can find detailed show notes on our website at anshilookdepthcom. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter for more business tips, profiles of inspiring Canadian creative women and so much more. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the show via your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave us a review through iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Drop us a note via our website at anshilookdepthcom, or come say hi on Instagram at anshilookdepth. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.