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Every Camper Counts: The Power of Inclusion - with Sari Grossinger and Sabrina Hinkens - The Day Camp Pod #115

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/day-camp-pod/inclusion2025

Inclusion Best Practices for Summer Camps

Are you looking to create a truly inclusive camp environment where every child feels welcome and supported?  In this episode of the Day Camp Pod, we dive deep into the world of inclusion for special needs campers with expert guests Sabrina Hinkens and Sari Grossinger.

Sabrina and Sari share invaluable insights on intake processes, staff training, communication strategies, and the importance of collaboration with families and support agencies. Discover how to navigate the challenges of inclusion, from managing expectations to adapting activities and creating a sense of belonging for all campers.

This episode is a must-listen for any camp professional seeking to improve their inclusion practices and create a positive and enriching experience for every child. Tune in to gain practical advice, inspiring stories, and a renewed passion for making your camp a place where everyone shines!

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Find them at Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/day-camp-pod/inclusion2025

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[00:00:00] There's never enough best practices to go around when it comes to inclusion with special needs kids. And today, we talk with two experienced operators, Sabrina Hinkins from the Municipal Camp World and Sari Grossinger from Camp Robin Hood, who helped Liberty Lake down the inclusion path 20 years ago.

It's a bumpy road at times, but if you put the right philosophy, people, and tools in place, it can be one of the best things you ever do at your camp. And let me be clear, you can do it. This is the day camp pod. 

This is the Day Camp Pod from Go Camp Pro. Bringing you the best ideas, strategies, and discussions in the day camp industry. You can find our show notes@daycamppodcast.com. The Day Camp podcast is brought to you by CRS commercial recreation specialists. Your go-to source for recreation solutions that will ensure that your camp arrives.

Explore their website today at CRS four Rec. CRS is serious about. Scheduling shouldn't be so difficult [00:01:00] if you take as much time as it does. Come check out Camptivities to learn all about their scheduling tools and they're specifically designed for Camp's 5 Camp People. Save time, get rid of the mistakes, and get back to enjoying your summer.

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Check out the details at CampMinder. com

Welcome back to the Day Camp Pod, the place where camp pros come to talk about what's working, what's not, and where we're headed next. I'm Andy Pritikin, director of Liberty Lake in the Philly suburbs of New Jersey. 

I'm Sam Thompson from Crystal Lake Park District in Crystal Lake, Illinois.

And today we are talking again about inclusion. This is probably [00:02:00] like our fourth inclusion pod. I'm thinking, Sam, and we're bringing back Sarah Grossinger who was, I think on our first one ever. So Sari from the great, great, great white North of Canada. How's it going? What's the temperature? Can you convert it to American for the rest of us?

No, I can say it's very cold. It's like minus 10 Celsius. All right, so minus 10 

Celsius. 

That's got to be 

really cold. Yeah, that's crazy. And then from a little south of that towards, towards, I guess it's northern Illinois, Sabrina? Sabrina Hinkins from the Gurney Park District. Where is Gurney in relationship to where Sam is, Crystal Lake?

We are northeast, so Gurnee is situated halfway between Milwaukee and Chicago. So that's kind of where we're right by the border of of Illinois, Wisconsin. 

Oh, got it. So are you a Packers fan or a Bears fan? 

Oh, I'm a Bears fan. 

Okay. All right. 

[00:03:00] Because down 

here, the Eagles are playing the Packers this weekend and it's getting, it's getting crazy.

Yeah. And as a Giants fan. 

The Bears beat the Packers this year, right? It's the first time in a long time. 

Yeah, but the Bears have been bad for many, many years. I wish you the best. You got a good quarterback. Hopefully you'll get it 

going. Small victories. We'll take it. Yeah. 

All right, Sam, you can take it away.

Okay. So I know we've done an inclusion podcast every year. And so if you've tuned in before, if you're thinking it'll be just the same thing, we know that our campers are never the same every year and they all have their own abilities. Their own soothing habits, their own triggers. So every year's different and our staff are different.

So that's why it's good to revisit every year. There's new resources that come out and that kind of thing. So, whichever one wants to start kind of with from your [00:04:00] organization, how do you do your intake process? Because I know new people need to know that every time. All right, so let's let's 

start like this.

So, sabrina you get an application and when do you guys even open applications march 

So for summer camp staff, we are currently taking registrate or applications right now So we usually do our interviews in i'm talking 

campers. We're talking campers 

Oh, sorry campers start in february 5th Oh, look at you, early 

for rec program.

All right, 

so you get an application and do you write anything on that application? That's sort of a leading thing to try to get some info? 

We do ask a question standard question on all of our registration forms. Does your child have special needs? And they check the box yes or no. There's a spot for them to type something in.

We'll get the information from our registration software. And if there's nothing there, then we reach out and call the families. Sometimes that box was toggled by mistake. Sometimes they. [00:05:00] Have something to share with us, but just didn't write anything down. So we always follow up with with a phone call to get information if we don't have it.

Now, are you the camp director? What's your actual role at Gurney? 

So I recently in a new position. So for the last I've been at the Gurney park district for 19 years. 18 of those, I was the camp director. This last school year, summer, I was promoted to the program manager. So I oversee my old position, but I mainly di directly oversee our early childhood preschool program.

So I'm still involved in the summer camps as well as early childhood. 

Yeah, I would think so. Who, my question I was trying to get to is who makes this call? At your organization. 

So it would be the person who is in my pre whoever is the director of the program They are enrolling in so at the park district.

We also have swim lessons dance classes various recreation programs. So if they registered for a swim lesson, then the, then the aquatic director will make that call summer [00:06:00] camp. The summer camp director would make the call 

the person making the call is, do they have any background with special needs or just like trial by fire background?

They've got experience working in the, in the areas of. That their their programs are. So a lot of the times they have experience working with Children. So we work with an S. R. A. A. Special Recreation Association agency. That's assigned to our park district. So we get the information that our SRA requires us and then requires of us.

And then we send that off to the SRA, their inclusion supervisor. So then they set up the intake meeting. And get more information of how we can best serve the child. That's 

amazing that you guys have that resource. We had, right? Sam, didn't we have on people from that in the past? Yeah. They're phenomenal.

So, so are you asking these questions or are the parents filling out these forms? Like, how are we getting this information? 

So initially, so if I make the phone call, I would reach out and call and [00:07:00] say, I saw that you had wrote you signed up. Sabrina for the summer camp program. Can you tell me about their needs?

You check the box that special needs. Can you share with me what, what needs they would need to be successful in our program? And usually they'll go into, if there's a diagnosis, what that diagnosis is kind of where they need that support. A lot of times they'll say, well, in school they have, an IEP.

And kind of one of those things that they, they talk about. So I gather that information, ask them, okay, well, we work with Warren Special Recreation Association to provide inclusion aids. Is this something you're thinking would be supportive? Is that something you want? Cause sometimes somebody will say they have a, a special need, but it doesn't require an aid.

It's just more information about the child that we need to know. Giving them more transition time or whatnot, but if it requires that one on one companion, then we follow up send the request form to our SRA and then [00:08:00] they'll set up an intake meeting. I'm always part of those, especially if they're new students, if it's a program.

And then, so the inclusion supervisor will ask their set of questions more about more specific medical and things like that. And then I'm there as the standpoint of how this would work within. Our summer camp program or preschool program. 

So, Sabrina, now that you're doing preschool, that's got its own caveat of they're not diagnosed yet and a lot of them.

This is their 1st time being with other children period so they don't realize that there's any differences in their behavior yet so that that adds that other layer of tension when you do need to contact the parent. Correct. 

That is and I'm and I'm finding that that's a huge difference because with school age kids, I can always refer to what did what was school like?

What did you? Did you talk to their social worker or the principal or somebody? That's not here, [00:09:00] that that's not with early childhood. So we actually, the, day one, we recognize that there is a two and a half year old in our, we have our youngest age is two and a half to three year olds and red flags to us were, okay, this child can't sit still.

They can't, their speech is not there as where one should. So having those conversations with the parents. And they had told us, Oh, yes, we are aware and they must have heard from their, from their pediatrician because they said, yes, we're going to get screened. And so we said, okay, well, we tried it for this class happened to be two days a week.

They, they were there for four days and that fourth day, we said they can't, we, we brought in the, hey, do you know about Sports and Special Recreation Association? They have inclusion services. Let's, let's try to bring in somebody to, to be there because they understood the needs it.

We literally had a teacher being the one on one. And, when you have a group of 15, two year olds, you can't. That you [00:10:00] can't have one teacher focused on one kid. They, they need to be there for all the children. 

So, 

yes, a lot of conversation that I'm used to 

have that I was used to having 

a 

lot of school districts after screening for early childhood, too.

So, if they don't want to go through their pediatrician or whatever, there are free programs that will help get them screened at that age. But so at least we can direct them in the right resource. 

Yeah, I think. First of all, I think you guys are, like, spoiled having this resource, right? I don't, I mean, most, most private camps, non profits, municipal, municipalities don't have this.

Like, it's just amazing that you have this, this great resource. So I think that Sam's question is, like, a really, really Like big question, you know cross the camping universe and anytime I talk about inclusion whether it camps It immediately goes to the preschool area, right where you're getting these kids and just like you guys were talking about The parents don't know if it's their first kid.

They don't want what [00:11:00] normal is behavior, right? This kid is just high maintenance like always running around like whatever like that's just that's just what it is. I guess, you know um So what we've done at liberty lake, Which worked out pretty well for us. I have to say is that Any of our young kids.

Okay, so let's say three year olds, definitely like even four year olds. We we do a play date. So we're gonna play date at the end of the month in March, and we want them all to go and they're all first time camper. So the parents really wanted to come out and see the place and all this kind of thing.

And we have a big playground kind of area kind of thing. And we literally just bring them out. And we let them play and we put them in little groups and then we, and we let them play and then we have our social workers there and all like the, the people who have done this and special ed teachers and all this kind of thing.

And they're watching this and taking notes and asking questions, all this kind of thing, and we're getting to see them in their native environment that they'll be in camp because no matter how you set up an intake, it's going to be in. Not like camp, I'm still 

going to [00:12:00] have some trial and error once they get in the environment.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. Do you do the younger young young ones? 

So, we legally in Canada or in Ontario now can only take kids from 4 years of age and up and so we don't have them any younger. There's been a lot of education and push for families to try and get early intervention as quickly as possible. And schools and preschools are picking up on that.

And I think families are getting better educated. I think during COVID, it was even more of a concern because they really didn't have that opportunity to socially interact with people to or compare. I like your play date idea, Andy. I think at our camp We tend to focus during our open houses in May and June, which is kind of late already because we've been hiring our one to one companions or staff.

I know, but the snow has to melt. I 

get it. I get it. 

It definitely has to melt. They come with their families and then we're all eyes. So that our division heads, which are usually teachers, they're out and around leading [00:13:00] tours, and then they come back and they will make contact with a family if they notice a red flag and say, Hey, have you been talking to Sarah yet?

What's your child's name? And get me a little bit more information so that I can then take that conversation with them. To be honest, we are finding that people. And we've been, we've really been intentional with our website to encourage families to reach out with their application, not their registration form, but their application to share information, because that's the way we're going to best support their child in our setting.

So we've been. Really pushing that and people have been very responsive to call first before they even start to do their application so we can get that intake going. But there are those ones that slip through. And actually, Sabrina, when you were speaking, reminded me we get families some international families that come to Toronto for the summer to be with grandparents or whatever and they will often check off that [00:14:00] they need that their child has some special needs and needs extra attention on our application.

But when we call, it's because they don't understand the culture of camp and they want us to put an extra staff in there. So there's more supervision for their child. So that's one of the areas we have to kind of tease out in the questions that we ask, but I don't have somebody to send them off to or a private camp.

Yeah. Most people don't. 

Yeah. 

Where I'm, I'm the one, once things get flagged with the applications that come in by a registrar and I'm looking at it, that I start to ask the questions. So what is, what is the 

question that's on your application? Sorry, that's like the trigger. So we 

do have, we do have a couple areas where we ask the question.

One is about do they need additional support and or do they need a one-to-one support staff for them to check off? There's also a common area about are is their child currently on any medication? And if so, what kind of medication? We also are capturing in there now we [00:15:00] know to ask about anaphylaxis.

Because sometimes parents don't let us know until their health forms and their health forms come in late and stuff. And then we ask if the medication is going to be taken during the summer or they may be just doing it during the school year. The other area is the common area in our registration system.

Sometimes parents just lead with a little bit of Had a terrible experience at another program or has difficulty making friends or has difficulty staying focused or with the group, or we'd like some extra attention for them all of those things trigger me to be able to call before we process the application to say, hey, I'd love to know a little bit more about Johnny or Sarah.

Can you give us some more insight? So I definitely ask the questions, but also then talk about, Okay. The difference between camp and school, and I think Sabrina, you hit on that really well too because people come with their own perceptions of what camp [00:16:00] and the culture of camp is going to be like, and every setting is different, and we're a private outdoor camp setting, and when we go indoors for inclement weather, it's a lot of people.

We have like, 800 and some odd kids at a time, Right on our property. So it's a lot of people to go into indoor settings and that can be hard for kids. So I do start to talk to families about the difference and about our ratios and that our staff are young because I think sometimes parents think, well, they do okay in school with the support or without support.

Why at your camp setting? Do you think my child needs to have extra support here? And that's when I can start to say, well, we've got 2 counselors for 13. Let's say 6 year olds, do you think that your child can evenly split the time of those 2 counselors amongst everybody in the group or your child's going to want more time?

And that's when they start to go. Oh, now I understand a little bit more. And then we [00:17:00] get talking because we charge for that extra staff. I don't know if the program that you have, Sabrina, there's an extra charge for the families, but unfortunately we charge, there's very few funding sources. I do advocate and lobby for those funds for camps to get that extra support, but it's very few and limited.

And here we, we can't charge per ADA law, but the we, we, we have to very creatively budget to be able to do that. And we do pay into our SRAs so that They can give us the resources. So, Sabrina and I have one big difference in our two different SRAs. Mine, I hire the staff and they come out and help us train.

Sabrina, yours, they, your SRA sends you the staff? 

Yeah, so similar, so we have a budget or the ADA budget, and so we get invoiced at the end of each summer. So our, sometimes our struggle is, so our [00:18:00] SRA also has programs that might be a better fit for certain children and sorry, kind of like you said, with some of those questions you find out, can they fit within our one to, whatever ratio we do a one to 10 ratio for older kids, one to eight for younger.

And one of the questions I ask is in the school year, what kind of classroom setting are they in that that's a huge if they're in a general ed classroom and get pulled for for things here and there for speech and reading, that's completely different than being in a in a smaller one to five classroom setting.

And I share with that our program is recreational based. We have, and yes, it's a one to 10 ratio or one to eight, but we generally have about 50 to 60 kids were outside. We transition a lot. How will your child react to that? Do they need that support? So with that ADA, so that and I, and I am very upfront with the, the parents.

That we tell them these could be 16 and 17 year old. These are not your social [00:19:00] workers at school. These are not the same staff that have the same training. Yes, they have additional training. They attend our camp training. But yeah, we get invoiced for any, any participant and their staff hours. So, the park district pays our SRA back out of our ADA budget.

However, a challenging point is, When we talk to these families, and there are some that this SRA camp is the better option. They're smaller staff. It's a one to three ratio for some, it's more one-on-one, but they charge for that. So their, their camp prices are way more than ours, and sometimes we found that their hours are also different.

They're not as long as ours. So some of these families choose us because they like our schedule. There's our schedule works with a working schedule. I need them there at 7 AM to 6 PM. Whereas some of the SRA programs don't run that long. So it's really challenging to say, Oh, this is a [00:20:00] better option, but pay an extra hundred, 200 where you can come to our camp, which is longer hours.

And you get for free, no additional cost. A one on one so that I don't know, Sam, if you have some of that struggle, those struggles as well. 

Yes. Yes. Plus, the SRA camps will do personal care and we don't do personal care. So there's some of those things, but they have the right to put their child in whichever program they want.

And then we need to try to make it work. Unlike our school districts. Our school districts have to provide for everybody us being a recreation program. We can say if, if we can't do personal care, we can't take them. So we do have at least that, right? But I know Andy, private camps, and sorry, you guys have more freedom.

What I what's that corrected who you can take and not take 

human rights and we have the Ontarians with Disabilities Act and 

and [00:21:00] anybody could choose to sue anybody right 

and social media to like, it's not uncommon now for a family to go to social media, but how their personal. How they perceive their child's experience or if they weren't accepted into the program.

So you have to be really careful of how you deal with things. We do take kids that are in like community classes, those smaller classes with the supports. But sometimes we'll take an outside support staff too. And I will share with a family that unlike school that has 10 months to really get to know.

Their child and support them in our setting. We may only have 2 weeks that we have with their child and a little bit of a lead up time before they get there. And so sometimes with those kids, they will benefit more and get more out of our program with somebody that already knows them from before and that there's that connection.

If we take an outside staff, then I say to the families. You organize how you want to pay them because educational assistance that this, I don't know what you call them in the school setting, but those extra staff in a school [00:22:00] setting tend to only work 10 months and then they go on unemployment sometimes.

So, if the family can pay them. However, it is somebody that really knows their child. Well, that can come into our setting, but I want to meet them first. They don't have to go through our training, but I'm going to give them exactly what our policies are so that they feel that they belong in our setting and then the child that they're working with will hopefully feel part of our setting and I'm very strong to to say they probably have a great connection with the family.

But they have to understand the culture of camp and that we have young people working for us in camp and that there are certain ways that we communicate with families. Because one of the pitfalls can be that that outside staff person, feels like the grade 12 staff member isn't handling it the way that they would like and would route them out to the family rather than saying to us, can you help them give some more support that way?

So, I love outside support when it works and typically my outside support comes from [00:23:00] agencies that the families work with. So when I'm doing my intake, I'm finding out who those people are that they're connected to and I'm having a call with those people with the parent's consent so I can get more information and really build that team together because sometimes during the summer for me to call.

They're outside people are the agency person that helps a lot. They help deal with that staff person. pause

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 Yeah, we make the outside [00:25:00] agency people. We make them go to our staff trainings and where our staff shirts and be a part of our staff and learn the culture and all that kind of thing because of all these little nuance things that you're bringing up.

It's really important. I just want to Go back to the, the how to get information from people thing that so at Liberty Lake, we don't ask a question like, does your child has special needs? Because again, I don't think the parents of young kids even know what that means. Right? So, we ask, does your child have an IEP?

Does your child have a 504 plan? And that's our trigger. And then if they answer, yes. to those, that opens up a whole other section on our registration form, where we can get more detail about the things. And yeah, that, that helps us big time. 

With bringing in those those other organization's people we do ask for the background checks on them as well, because they're on our property, they're, so, and usually that's not a problem.

Sometimes that's what takes the most time though, before they get back to you. And 

I think the discussions that we're talking about [00:26:00] explaining camp to people is is really important. And I we almost discourage people from saying even little kids here. We're completely outdoor camp. It's hot. Like there's, it's loud.

We have a lot of music like this. So we try to get really real. with people so that they understand, the implications of sending their kids with us. And then in regards to a kid that's like significantly on the spectrum or something like that, say, listen, this is a neurotypical camp. It's not a special needs camp.

We have an inclusion program. Okay. But your kid has to be able to. Be included in order for this to work, and we explain what that is, too, because it's just different from campus school, and if these parents, if their mental model is their school, and who knows what that necessarily looks like, or if they're preschoolers, and they're, it's a preschool, where they're so on top of them, and they're writing down, he had a bowel movement, and all this kind of stuff, the parents getting this information every day, like, it's, we really do need to Talk to them.

It's really important and and you guys, uh at your [00:27:00] at your park districts are really lucky You hand them off to this third party and they do this like intake kind of thing But sarah you got to do like legit one yourself and we have a woman that sarah's knows terry that works for us That does them too.

So what does your like intake look like? Like is it over the phone? Do you make them come see you like how does that work? 

So, I, it's over the phone originally, it can be a team's meeting or a zoom meeting that I'm, I'm talking to families. That's really changed since COVID. I used to do home and school visits.

I don't do them as much, but if the family wants it, I will definitely go out and do that, but it's during that discussion and I talk a lot about play versus work. And that for a lot of our kids that we support this is really hard work for them, because I think sometimes parents who get the camp culture, just imagine that camp's going to be the same as it was for them when they experienced it, but they didn't have necessarily the same needs that their kids now have, and so they're experiencing it differently.

So I often talk to them about it. Camp doesn't happen in a vacuum. [00:28:00] So exactly what you're saying, Andy, like, with that outdoor experience, but there's lots of spirit going on, lots of transitions. We're very visually and auditorily overwhelming. We're in a big nature, kind of, outdoor setting but we also talk about that you wake up in the morning and you only are given Budget to spend during the day, and if parents are like, but he's gonna wanna ride on the bus.

And I'm like, okay. But does he have to work hard to be able to sit and be able to focus and tune out all that noise? Yeah. Okay. Well, he's already using some of the money that he has patience. He's using 

patience, right? 

Yeah. And so by the time he gets. to camp. He's got very little patience left or ability to cope.

And so now what are we going to do? So when I explain things like that to them, and I also camp is in the place where we can really control all the elements outside, but also what are other kids going to say and do. And so I also talked to families about that as well. And say that, [00:29:00] Even with all of this intake and all of the strategies and supports we're going to put in, and we're going to use the strategies that they find are helpful at home and school, kids mature and change frequently, and interact differently with different people.

And so there's a lot of trial and error, and the parents are going to have to be part of the team to deal with that trial and error, and there may be, and I am, Andy, just like you, I think, very upfront to say, I can't even tell you 100%. I've been doing this for over 30 years. My background is as an occupational therapist, but I can't tell you 100 percent and we're non therapeutic camp.

I'm very clear about that. My daughter is a speech and language therapist that works in the field too, and the 2 of us are very clear to say we're not doing hands on therapy with your kids but we're there to be able to support with our team and work together, but I can't guarantee from year to year it's going to be successful.

And then I have lots of disclaimers and a behaviour policy, which Andy, we've spoken about before too, like, [00:30:00] that's very clear about what kind of behaviours we can tolerate in our setting. And if we're not seeing changes, once behaviour strategies have been put in place. Then we're going to have to say no, thank you.

Yeah, 

you need a plan B. 

That's a great point, having it in writing what the parameters for everyone is, and that they still have the same discipline policy as everyone else. 

And you could almost be guaranteed that these kids with serious, significant, additional needs, they're going to have a really rough first few days.

Like, just plain and simple. Like it just is right? So the parents need to know that the staff needs to know that so they can put their expectations in check and that people aren't after the first day going, this kid's never going to succeed here. No, like, Oh, like for any child, the first day of camp is hard.

Imagine if you had like a, learning disability on top of it, whatever. 

Or your kindergarten and have a different need. Because at that point, kindergartners, face it, they don't have the coping skills yet. And they're not they're not ready for a lot of [00:31:00] things. It's just. For their age and maturity.

So we've also taken a look at having like a recon team. So, because of staff absences or staff burnout and putting a camper relations is what the person we call that oversees our inclusion program, having a staff there that's prepared to float in and out of cabin groups, and they're not assigned to a specific.

Specific child and we're talking about doing that on swim specifically to so that these people can float in and be able to help because sometimes our setting brings out certain behaviors. Sometimes we're all prepared for a child that needs more support and then they don't and then we can say to the family, like, you know what we're noticing this summer doesn't need that support.

I'm going to refund you the money because we're charging and and then we're going to assign that person to somebody that. Does need that support. So we have that flexibility to 

that's a great segway. Sabrina. Do you run into you've hired someone for this particular person? Well, they [00:32:00] they send them to you, but they end up connecting way better to a different person who needs different needs and the child themselves connect to somebody else.

So how do you all switch when you see that happening and reassign? Yeah, this last 

summer, a specific, like there was an inclusion staff assigned to a camper, but the camper connected. So just because we have somebody else bring in the staff doesn't mean the Gurney Park District Camp staff doesn't do anything with that child or that staff.

It's inclusion. So, so we do training. Our SRA comes in, does just general inclusion training, behavioral training. With our staff, but that camper connected like that counselor who like the lead counselor of the of the campers group connected so well with that with that camper. So when when the camper was struggling, having a tough, difficult time and the S and the [00:33:00] inclusion staff couldn't really like they weren't whatever they were doing wasn't successful.

The other counselor came and oh, my gosh, the child changed right away. So sometimes that connection. is there. So we would okay, if if this child, on a field trip, have this counselor stay closer. So yes, sometimes we do change things around and bring another staff from another camp. Another thing is with our S.

R. A. S. They tell the parents if somebody calls in sick, if that inclusion aid calls in sick, the child can't come. Sometimes that's really hard for us to do. As, as, we don't want, it's no fault of the child. So there are times when a one of our camp counselor becomes the inclusion aid or becomes the one-on-one just because it, it's a team effort.

It's, it's not a, that's your camper, no, they're all of our campers. They're all of our, our, our responsibility. So. That that tends to help, I do hire additional staff just in general because [00:34:00] staff lots of days off. So I, and trying to have just somebody to be a sub doesn't always work.

So I try to hire at least one extra staff for camp, knowing somebody might quit. Somebody might not be working out or lots of time off that we didn't know about until, until late. But even the SRAs were having trouble. I know a couple of years ago, it would be, you had to commit to the whole summer. And you are working with the same camper and the last year or two, we've noticed the RSRA just have a lot of kids, a lot of staff assigned and assign them one week here with this child, one week here at that one, just because of staff availability and even campers, they're not here in camp all summer, they're here one week or three days this week, a week this week.

So just adapting with the times of availability, we've, we've noticed that. We, we try to pair as closely as possible, have the same, same staff state with the same child, but that doesn't always work. So, it's [00:35:00] sometimes a puzzle that we kind of put together. 

Yeah, it's a puzzle, but it stinks for the kid because these kids love patterns.

And when you break their pattern up, you are asking for 

it. However, it is nice for carryover of skills for kids to learn how to be able to carry their skills over to other people in their environment. So when we do our intake, we do a camper profile or a camper summary and put an all about me kind of page and we share it with the staff that need to be in the know.

So the other counselors of the group or cabin leaders, we call them now get the same information that the one to one staff does so that if that person's away, they can step in, but because we're swimming twice a day and there's changing and our staff expected to go in the water. They can't have their eyes on that camper all the time.

I'm guessing with brakes too, that that comes. So we use a switch pass and we use a very visible like lanyard that's kind of like these. When you're wearing this, it means you're the bottom line. You're the eyes for that camper. So [00:36:00] the other staff do need to know how to be able to step in. And support and this reminds them that this child is in my care now and I need to make sure he's not wandering or drinking or eating something he's not supposed to be doing.

It's amazing. So that that has worked really well for us and it stops burnout a little bit too, which has been helpful. We've changed the way we train our one to one staff. I don't know. Can I? It's evolving. My daughter's helping us evolve. I'm always stuck in the ways that I always was. We're now training our one to one staff as a whole, kind of like your program does.

Within Robin Hood and then they go and have their placements, but they report to the camper relations coordinator so that if they have to get moved around, they're not feeling like they were really connected to this unit and putting up a fight about moving because moving for staff. People can be scary for them too.

They like the routine in the [00:37:00] structure, but for these 1 to 1s, if we tell them, Right from the get go that you are going to be moved when we need you in different places. There are a little bit more understanding and flexible with that. And that has helped us a lot. 

I last year was the first year that I put someone in charge of all my inclusion aids.

So that they had a spokesperson that they could go to with, Hey, lunchtime's not working. Can we try this? So that we could really iron out some problems. But we, Higher. So, you have a camp leader for the group and you have the inclusion aid later. So it's presented as there's two counselors for that group.

But like you said, one has eyes on. I'm going to use your past idea because then there's no confusion about in this activity. Who's got. The person now with that, all that being said about changing around sometimes that leads to a staff member, aha moment that. changes their life. That's [00:38:00] amazing.

For me this summer, we took on a girl who the parent used to be one of our counselors years ago, but she was kindergarten had very severe cerebral palsy. She couldn't hold her chest up. So a lot of equipment, a lot of restrictions and different tools for eating for swim, everything swimming, we had to have So that was a new adventure for all of us, and she came with her outside aid that she had been working with.

But then that outside aid took off 3 weeks at the end of camp. So by then, our staff knew the child and one of our aids, her normal person she was with, she asked if she could try it. To be this aid, and she was amazing at it, and lucky for me, this child's now in my before and after school, [00:39:00] and so is that aid, and now she's going to stay with her indefinitely, and now she's even doing soccer on Saturdays with her, and, she's, they bonded, and it's amazing to see, so, I don't know.

Yeah, 

that's sweet. Going back to your, your tag thing, sorry. I'm just curious about that. Because you guys just do an amazing job and just always impress me with these little nuanced things, but the, the. Do you think that having a tag would make like the other group staff say, well, that's, Sari is that person's counselor and then they don't worry about him because then this person's just like so markedly identified as being that person.

You know what I mean? As opposed to being more stealth 

because it during a camp day, it is inevitably going to, there are going to be moments within that day that they can't be with that camper. So it's an everyday kind of [00:40:00] thing. We just kind of, and it doesn't say like one to one staff or anything like that.

It's just, it's just a switch pass or something on it. Like it, it doesn't to anybody else. Nobody else would know what it means except for those three cabin leaders and I think they appreciate like, oh, my gosh, this person's here and they're working with this child, but now they're giving, and for an outside staff, it gives them the opportunity to really teach these younger staff.

How to be able to support that camper, so it's actually used as more of a, I think it's the way you present it. Like, it's a learning tool. It's 1, a learning tool and 2, it's really helping everybody feel more balanced and rested and nobody's going to really burn out and it allows for less 1 to 1 staff because we were finding they were sometimes the ones that weren't coming back to campus off because they hurt their back or they did this or it just was too much for them.

So this does create more of a balance that because if they love their kids 

and they want to stay with their kid, they don't want to give up. And the next thing you know, [00:41:00] they're dehydrated and passing out and can't come in tomorrow. Right? Because that's the kind of people that tend to do this kind of work, right?

He's like, super loving, dedicated people. Yeah, no, our, our people burning out is definitely an issue. So that, that is an interesting thing. But we also, our, our mindset at Liberty Lake is that we're like a communist country. And like, everybody's wearing the same shirts, everybody's doing, and like, we have different people in different roles, but it's sort of secret, so if I hired you to, to be one of these support counselors, right, I would say, all right, listen, you're in charge of little Johnny over here. Okay. Like you got to keep your eyes on him and all that kind of thing. But as far as anybody in your group knows, you're just another camp. You're just another staff person in that group.

But you just, Make sure you keep him in your sight lines, yeah, 

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we basically hire three levels of, of, of these kind of people. We have like the high school kid. That's just the extra set of hands for [00:43:00] the kid that just needs to make sure that keep them in the right place. Then we have like the adult, like it could be a college kid or a young teacher kind of person for the kid that needs like more of a steady hand and, and then we have kids that are absolutely with like special ed teachers that.

need that kind of thing. And going back to like the funding part it is sticky, especially in New Jersey right now where minimum wage is like 15 bucks an hour. And, a week of an adult is like 500 bucks. And if they're already paying that much or a little bit more or whatever for camp, it's like, how can you ask these people, so they do have to find alternate ways to pay for these things generally, unless they're just coming for two or three weeks and this is just respite and they'll figure out how to make it happen. 

We don't have special ed teachers that are coming in. It may be ABA therapists. And then there is some funding for kids on the autism spectrum.

There is some funding that the family can use if they get a certified ABA therapist that comes with them. We don't, [00:44:00] we wouldn't necessarily have a special ed teacher, and even the EA would be the most sophisticated, and that would be the family hiring them, so they pay them directly. Yeah, 

we have a relationship with our state where they, they get some funding through the state of New Jersey, but also sometimes, a lot of schools have the extended school year and they have these kids for, four or five weeks in the summer, but some school districts are small, they don't have it.

And they'd be willing to pay to send the kids to my camp and send, like, the phys ed teacher or a special ed teacher, because that's cheaper than paying tuition for it at another school and putting them on a bus every day and taking them there. It's like way cheaper. So we do get some kids like that as well.

Do you guys have any particular tools or resources that you can share that would benefit people either starting off or maybe they haven't thought of that? 

Well, we should definitely put in the show notes as many resources as we can and sorry, I definitely want to [00:45:00] see your all about me page because that sounds that sounds super cute.

So that's in there. The camper profile camper summaries in there. And then. One of the things Jordana and the team are really my daughter and her team are really good at is putting together. This is my favorite. It is just a key chain. I don't know if you can see it. Like, 1 of those little key chain rings.

So we're huge laminators. And so there could be a little thing. We could have a camper contract to behavior contract. And it could be pictures or it could be the full written thing where the child signs off and the parents have to sign off. We have zones of regulation, like all those kind of things.

So I did put some of those examples in there and how we break down some of the, the activities. So I put that there, but there is an all about me page. As well, that gets handed to the, all the staff that need to be in the know. And then we use our camp registration system to put strategies in. So bus counselors know what to be aware of.

And then we also put information there [00:46:00] for all the activity leads. So, if there's a child that can't sit for long periods of time needs to sit closer to an instructor, so they can prepare before that cabin group comes to that activity, knowing that they have a child that uses a wheelchair or a child that's visually impaired or.

Now, where, 

where is that information? Where's that information lie and how does it get to those people? 

I'm not so techie, but it's in our, we use Campbrain, it's in our Campbrain. And then we've made, we've had them help us make some reports that pull it and then we're able to share it with the staff that need to be in the know for that.

So that has been super helpful so they can. Plan ahead, but also plan their expectations and not get frustrated or upset with a child that won't sit for a long period of time or blurts out things because they have a motor tic on an issue. Yeah. 

Yeah. So we have a similar to that mixed with the all about me page.

We make a thing called a success card and that success card goes around with the [00:47:00] kid. And it goes to those important people and and it has, this is what the kid loves, this is what triggers the kid, and here's, like, things you need to know about that. No diagnoses, right? Because it's just behavioral.

And and yeah, it's like a cheat sheet on the kid that goes around with it. 

So, Bradent, do you use visual aids and life stories. And we 

do, so we do a lot of that. That's a lot taken at the intake meeting. We've learned, when I first started way back when it was more phone call, meetings, but more recently in the last, I would say since COVID we started doing in person and I've definitely noticed you can't just judge.

Paperwork either meeting the child. I still recall this is his third summer now, or he was last summer was his third summer. When I read the information that mom sent an email being proactive, I was like, I don't know. Just seeing what, what his health [00:48:00] needs were and all of that, I w I was scared.

I'm like, I don't know if I'm ready to take on this child with all his needs. And I met him and learning about him from mom and just seeing him. I'm like, Oh, put me at ease. But during these intake meetings, we get to learn things that they like. So we, we often do, we'll put visual boards if they're, if that helps.

Especially for nonverbal students using picture boards help our SRA also puts together a bag for each participant and individualize it. I'm sure you guys do this with various fidget toys. There's one child who loves Super, or Mario, he loves Super Mario, so we always have a plethora of Super Mario coloring sheets, he loves that, he loves to color that, so all Super Mario is in his, in his bag so different types of toys, things that will help them whether it's a distraction, or just calm them down, something for them to do while we wait for the bus that's running a few minutes late, Things like that are great resources that we've used within our program.[00:49:00]

You never have enough fidget toys at your camp. And they're great on the bus. And by the way, they're great with staff. Okay, who are starting to lose their minds. And yeah, they're just, they're just awesome. And, and a lot of kids who are not like diagnosed kids or whatever. Need them at times. And to just have it is just such a great thing.

It just, it totally can de escalate somebody, 

we have a sensory room too. Oh, sorry. 

That's okay. I was going to say the visual schedules. And like you said on the D ring where they can have a choice between this or that, but they need to see the picture of this or that so that, those have been so helpful.

Tell us about your sensory room. 

I was just gonna say also the schedules like we've now learned not just to give it to our campers. We used to put it in their fanny pack and the way that they like to see it. But now the whole camp has schedules. It's right on our website. It just helps everybody. It's an example of that universal design.

That's been really super helpful. So we have a sensory room that has a little bit of a cooler area to be able to go to [00:50:00] just quiet down. It's a place for both our campers and our staff to kind of catch their breath. And we find that people don't really abuse the privilege. They come in and then they're ready to be able to leave.

And so there's all sorts of things in there. I did put into the show notes, my OT student that is supervised last summer, Jordana asked her to put some sensory boxes together. And so there's a whole bunch of fun, little. Things to look for, and I like a lot of the books, too. There are some really cool, like Teeth are Not for Biting, and Hands are Not for Hitting, and all really great age appropriate kind of books I have in my office, too, that and so a lot of social story ish kind of books to help with personal space camp and stuff, so, those are some of my favorite tools, too.

Talk a little bit more about those social stories. I know not all people. Are familiar with that. 

So, it actually was started, I think, by some and a speech language pathologist, the social stories and it's, it's, it's just, it's a great opportunities to send [00:51:00] home before camp, even to get kids prepared for what's going to be coming up.

So, I think I put, on the show notes, one about sports academy that we have where there's winning and losing and there are sports teams. And so again, it's very much like Sabrina said, though, very tailored to the individual needs of the kids so you can get their preferred, like what they really like. So they're engaged to learn about it.

But it could be when we ride the bus, we're going to keep our hands to ourself. We have these kind of activities to do and somebody is going to meet up off the bus and it's our bus buddy and they'll take me to the unit to meet my counselors and depending on where their learning levels are. You can use real pictures.

You could use drawings. Or words like some of our kids just love to read the words, but it gives them an idea of what to expect and how to behave in a certain social situation. So those are really helpful to use and sometimes schools are using them too, or therapists are using them during the year, even putting on a life jacket.

So when they get [00:52:00] to camp, they practiced it in their therapeutic programs. And so when they get to camp, it's not something brand new to them. 

We one autistic camp I visited had they prepared them before their Olympic day. So that they knew that they might win or they might lose, but that was okay, and had them totally prepared beforehand because otherwise if it takes them by surprise, it leads to a trigger.

Yeah, 

sometimes we have those campers be the ones that are in the room helping us count or figure out so that they actually feel so proud that they know who the winner is and it totally deflates them getting too overexcited. Yeah, absolutely. 

Just a little bonus thing this past year we put in the added activity because we try to be like, oh, we're outdoors and we're rugged and we're doing this and that, right?

And the inclusion folks were like, you know what? Don't you guys have an activity where like kids are playing like board games or Legos and like more like chill out kind of things? So we actually created the activity so that it's easier now to sort of cycle those kids in [00:53:00] and give them You know a break from the hot weather the liquid sunshine and all those fun things we get I also want to tell you a feel good story because Sam in the notes said, if we had a good feels good story, so I got a good one that popped up because I'm Facebook friends with this kid's mom who came here and when he was, let's say seven years old and he was on the spectrum, wanders saying inappropriate things like just, your typical kid like that.

And, it was like taming a wild horse a little bit. And we. We got him in check. And by the time he got to like sixth or seventh grade, he actually sort of was starting to resent the fact that somebody was like assigned to him, and I remember it was like seventh or eighth grade. And we're like, all right, John, we're going to, going to give you the opportunity to fly on your own, but you got to make sure and blah, blah, blah.

And he was like, so excited to have that opportunity. And he, and he did it. All right. So now fast forward. He's probably like in his mid 20s now, right? And he just got his pilot's license. He's going to fly you in a [00:54:00] 747 somewhere. Like he's working for a commercial airlines. Like he went to like engineering school.

Like he's really smart, and he just became a commercial airline pilot. This kid and his mom is just like. It's because of you guys, you guys helped so much, so we do really, really great. So I tell these parents all the time, when they're thanking me profusely, and I'm just like, do you understand the joy that we get in helping your kids?

Like, it's almost selfish. Like, like we derive so much joy watching your kids succeed, knowing how tough they have it, and then we're able to provide this opportunity.

I was going to just say, do you guys have a story that you want to tell about someone? Go ahead. Sorry. 

Okay. I can't just provides that real place that they can reinvent themselves. And so I'm just reflecting on a family just spoke to this week, just to catch up about what's going to happen for next summer.

And he has not been successful during his school year. But camp is the place that he really shines and he gets to camp and everybody knows [00:55:00] him and he's, he just really thrives in the setting and then has not been able, he's being homeschooled right now, like really having a hard time in any type of school setting, but they went on a cruise over the holidays and he was so proud to wear his Camp Robin Hood t shirt, do his camp dance, when they do on the cruises and the kids programs, it's like summer camp, right?

Yeah. It was amazing. Like, and the parents, I love when they send us all their different, like, videos and pictures and here's my kid at show and tell talking about camp or whatever. So, it's, it's been really nice. And we've, campus often I've seen kids that have chosen the different types of schools or programs that they're going to based on the experience they had at camp because they were able to do it in a traditional setting that they no longer felt that they were at.

Needing that support in a specialized setting, et cetera, and they've made that move too. I know, 

and I know a lot of, well, a lot of camps do this sort of informally, but we're trying to formalize it now. Where after the kids sort of age out [00:56:00] of your camp, a lot of these kids, they really don't have a place to go.

And in America, like you can get services until you're 21 and then. You're sort of like, you're gonna be in a group home or something, unless your parents gonna take care of you. And so we started a, we call it an intern program. It's like occupational therapy kind of thing. And we assign them a person in camp.

So. Let's say, you have this really great phys ed teacher or really great boating instructor or whatever, and, and they're willing to take on one of these interns and, and really sort of create a, a, a intentional, very constructed, this is how your day works kind of day. And some of these kids have really, really thrived.

And. been able to continue to enjoy camp while actually contributing to it at the same time. And some of them are invaluable. Like we've got this guy at boating, I hope he never leaves like boating assistant, he's big, strong kid. 

My, my towel guy is 40 years old. He started with us when he was 18 on the spectrum, keeps [00:57:00] the place totally clear and loves handing out towels to everybody.

Right. I hear stories like this from all these 

camps like, Oh, there's a, the JCC camp down the street from us Medford JCC also has a great inclusion program. And they started a like an ice coffee shop kind of thing for their staff and had the and had the older inclusion kids running it. And cause, cause it's very smart.

They're like gifted and talented. They like adding money, and all kind of thing. 

Nice. Yeah, my, my favorite kind of growth story when I was I got the question is this is many years ago, we had a camper he was in our before and after school care program and summer camp he had a diagnosed with ADHD, went to a behavior school and would come to us and he was with us from my Like first grade to fifth grade at the time our program ended at fifth grade now expanded but at the time and almost every year, either suspension close to suspension close to removal.

Each after school year, each, summer camp. [00:58:00] And now I'm proud to say I, so two years ago, I received a, an application for somebody to work for me. And I'm like, that name looks familiar. And this is when we were doing zoom interviews and he popped up on my screen. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I know exactly who you are.

Blew me away interview. He is now, this will be his third summer coming to us and working for us. He is one of the best counselors that we've had. And I always get a kick out of, when he first started, like, Miss Sabrina, was I always, was I this bad? Like, he's now put, he's like, let me really give, did the counselors really work this hard?

You're like, or, just like putting in perspective of what he did to the counselors back then. And now, kind of putting in perspective of like, oh man, I apologize for what I did. But it's just amazing to see him thrive and, and relate to the campers. Cause he can relate to them in many ways that I can't, you know?

So it's wonderful to see [00:59:00] that. 

My last very short story is my girl that's in her special walker that holds her chest up or whatever. When we went roller skating, all of the kindergarteners and first graders are given these little white walkers to go on the roller rink. So she didn't have roller skates on, but she was out there with her walker with all of them booking around.

And I'll put a picture in the show notes because it was amazing. But yeah, very fun. 

It's really great. Well, thank you guys for joining and talking inclusion. We can talk about this all day. We can talk about this constantly. It's just so much. And, I just implore my CAM colleagues out there that, like, This is just, this is work you need to be doing.

They're doing it in the schools. You got to figure out how to do it in your camp to some degree. It's, it's super rewarding and, and not just for the kids and their families. It's rewarding for the regular neurotypical kids too, to be learning empathy and [01:00:00] patience and stuff with these kids, which by the way, again, they're already doing it in school.

Right? Camps are generally behind on this. And I understand that there's complexities to this and, and a lot of people, the first thing they say is, well, I don't want these strangers coming that are like, these one to ones from another agency and all that kind of thing. And like I said, I make mine go to training.

I. I pay my, pretty much most of them. So, so, yes, there's there's ins and outs of this. And I just implore you to reach out to people like me and Sari and Sabrina and Sandra who do this kind of work because we can give you some tips and pointers on it. And also, I just implore you that. If and when you go down this path, this is not a half assed kind of path to go down, because I think that that's a big reason that people don't do it, is because they just, out of the kindness of their hearts, they start doing it, but they're doing it half assed, they're not doing it like fully intentionally, and you just need to have systems in place.

You need to have special ed teachers around, I think camp directors fall victim of like, we're jacks [01:01:00] of all trades, and we can do a lot of things really, decently. This is like totally out of your realm, dealing with, with kids like this. This is, this is a real profession and you need to get those people on your team to help and have the toolbox to be able to create these little cards we're talking about, the cheat sheets, the, the key rings, these stories like, like the tools are out there, but you just need to have the right people to help put it together.

If you're not fortunate enough to be a park district. Northern Illinois have access to these folks. Fantasy Island over there. No, you guys, you guys awesome. So anyway, I want to thank our friends at camp minder and at captivity's and commercial recreation specialists for helping bring this podcast to you.

If you like what you hear, you should subscribe to the day camp on, on your favorite podcast platform. Check out our show notes from all our episodes at day camp podcast. com, as well as contact info for the show, for our guests, Sabrina and Sari, and for me. And my co host Sam Thompson. So thanks for listening and making yourself a better day camper.

We'll be back in [01:02:00] two weeks for another episode of the day camp pod.