If You Can’t, Then You Must. How to Transform Grief - with Phil Cohen

Grief is more than just an emotional experience. It rewires the brain, changes how the body functions, and challenges us spiritually. Learn how to transform it with our guest Phil Cohen. https://bit.ly/42j06Zs

How Do We Break the Grip of Grief?

Phil Cohen returns this week with a chat about how grief impacts the mind, body and spirit and what we can do to help support healing in each. We explored how grief is more than just an emotional experience. It rewires the brain, changes how the body functions, and shakes our spiritual foundation. 

Phil works to bring hope and clarity to something that often feels overwhelming and isolating. Remember that grief does not need to break us and that there are ways to carry grief that make life meaningful again. 

In this Episode:

• 03:10 - Road Trip to Idaho: Kootenay Legends, Frog Eye Salad
• 05:23 -  How Grief Impacts the mind, body and spirit, with Phil Cohen
• 09:04 - Why Don't I Feel Like Myself After a Loss? Learn What Changes Happen with Grief
• 13:40 - Actions you Can Take to Adapt to the Pain of Grief
• 19:31 - Guilt with Grief - Do we Need that Sense of Control?
• 25:47 - Why Sitting Alone is Harmful
• 29:26 - The Triad to Break the Grief Physiological Impact: Movement, Focus, and Words We Say
• 44:38 - A Tribute to Andrea Gibson, by D.L. White
• 49:41 - Outro

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 3:10 Road Trip to Idaho: Kootenay Legends, Frog Eye Salad
• 5:23 How Grief Impacts the mind, body and spirit, with Phil Cohen
• 9:04 Why Don’t I Feel Like Myself After a Loss? Learn What Changes Happen with Grief
• 13:40 Actions you Can Take to Adapt to the Pain of Grief
• 19:31 Guilt with Grief – Do we Need a Sense of Control?
• 25:47 Why Sitting Alone is Harmful
• 29:26 The Triad to Break the Grief Physiological Impact: Movement, Focus, and Words We Say
• 44:38 A Tribute to Andrea Gibson, by D.L. White
• 49:41 Outro

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Everyone Dies. This week, we're talking about grief with Phil Cohen. Phil, known as the Grief Guy on social media, has agreed to join us each month for a chat about grief.

His message about empowerment in the face of grief is something that may offer you hope in the face of loss. Thank you for listening to our podcast about serious illness, dying, death, and bereavement. I'm Marianne Matzo, a nurse practitioner, and I use my experience from working as a nurse for 47 years to help answer your questions about what happens at the end of life.

Our main topic is in the second half, so you can just fast forward to get right to this week's topic if you need to, or if you want to. It's okay. And I'm Charlie Navarette, an actor in New York City, and here to offer an every-person viewpoint to our podcast.

We're both here because we believe that the more you know, the better prepared you are to make difficult, end-of-life decisions. Also, this podcast does not provide medical nor legal advice. Please listen to the complete disclosure at the end of the recording.

In the first half, Charlie has our recipe of the week and a story about Idaho. In the second half, we're talking with Phil Cohen. And in the third half, Charlie has a poem from D.L. White about his reaction to the death of the poet, Andrea Gibson.

So hi, Charles. Hi, Marianne. How are you? Well, you know, fine.

I was just sitting here about to complain about something, but really, what's the point? Really? You have your life, you have your, your, your... I have my girl, who could ask for anything more? Your swarthy good looks? Swarthy good looks. There we are. Hey, did I ever tell you my joke about Idaho? Um, no.

So I had this patient when I worked at the VA, quite elder man, who every time, and when I say every time he came in to see me, he would tell me the same jokes. And the first time I was able to honestly laugh because they were corny. And the 10th time, I just, you know, had to be the incredible actress that I am and laugh because he really wanted me to laugh.

But the one joke that always cracked me up was if, if I've got one potato here and one potato here, how do you know which one is the prostitute? I'm sorry, which one is the prostitute? Yeah. Okay. Wow.

It's the one that says Idaho. Moving on. Okay, that is cute.

Okay. Our first half finds Everyone Dies in Idaho, where, according to Kootenai legend, a young Kootenai maid once fell in love with a Kootenai brave or warrior. The chieftain of a tribe hostile to the Kootenai threatened war if he was not allowed to marry the maid, making it impossible for the young lovers to be together.

Since the star-crossed maid and her brave knew they could never be married, they made a suicide pact and tied their wrists together, symbolic of their eternal union, and leapt off a cliff into Idaho's Spirit Lake. Legend has it that their spirits live on, and you can hear their mournful cries floating up from the water. Some have even claimed that on moonlit nights, they can be seen gliding across a lake in a phantom canoe.

In an uneasy segue, our recipe this week is for Frog Eye Salad, which might sound unusual, but in Idaho, it's a common dish at family gatherings, potlucks, and holiday dinners. This dessert-like salad is made with asini de pepe pasta, whipped topping, and a mix of fruits such as mandarin oranges, pineapple, and maraschino cherries. The dish has deep roots in the region.

During the mid-20th century, it became especially popular among Mormon communities in Idaho, Utah, and surrounding states. Bon Appetit, baby! Go to our webpage for this week's recipe for Frog Eye Salad and additional resources for this program. This is the part where we ask for your financial support.

Your tax-deductible gift will go directly to supporting our non-profit journalism so that we can remain accessible to everyone. You can donate at www.everyonedies.org, that's every, the number one, dies, dot org, or at our site on Patreon under Everyone Dies. Everyone Dies is pleased to bring you an interview with Phil Cohen.

After the death of his 14-year-old son, Perry, in a sudden accident at sea, Phil spent nearly a decade exploring every possible way to understand and heal from grief. Phil is now a grief coach, speaker, and creator behind The Grief Guy. His viral videos and TEDx talk, Transforming Grief, have helped countless grievers transform devastation into growth, connection, and meaning.

His message is simple. Grief doesn't have to be a life sentence. It can become the soil where something beautiful grows.

Here is this week's chat with Phil and Marianne. We're here today with Phil Cohen, and his work has really started with the death of his son, and his own work with grieving, and his own work with trying to somehow deal with and make sense of, you know, it has to be the most horrific thing that a parent can go through. And he's learned a lot.

And it's been 10 years since Perry died, is that right, Phil? That's right, yep. And, you know, 10 years seems like a long time, but in, you know, there's dog years, and there's grief years. So in grief years, Perry's only been dead probably five minutes, right? Yeah, I mean, it can be, it's sometimes it seems like so soon, and sometimes like a lifetime ago.

Yeah, and so that, you know, sort of this warp change between time, grief doesn't pay attention to time. And it can, you know, punch you in the gut just as forcefully as, you know, right after you've heard the news as it can 10 years later. But Phil is working with people with, who want to talk and want to learn about grief.

And his goal is to bring hope and clarity to something that is so overwhelming and so isolating. And he's going to be joining us here at Everyone Dies for, you know, an episode a month to help us grow with him and learn from him in terms of his work with grief and grieving. So Phil, thank you so much for the courage to come and do this and to share everything, well, everything, but what you know about grief and grieving.

Well, I really appreciate you having me to talk about these things, because, you know, one of the reasons why I even started this work is to really just to challenge the whole culture of silence surrounding grief. Because, you know, it's, this still doesn't really make quite make sense to me how, you know, this is something that's, we're all 100% going to die. Why is it so hard for people to talk about? And as you mentioned, it could be so isolating and so lonely and a time when you really need people, and for some reason, you know, it scares them for whatever reason.

So I appreciate you talking about that, because right now, because, you know, it's important that people don't feel so alone. You know, I always tended throughout my whole career to talk about things that people don't want to talk about, made me extremely popular. So one of the things that you talked with me about is that grief changes your brain.

And we did a podcast about this, and we'll put it in the show notes for people who would like to listen to that. But can you tell us more about why people don't feel themselves after a loss? And what is that change that happens? Yeah, you know, I think one of the reasons why I think grief is so difficult for so many people is because it affects so many parts of your life instantly, like just even health, right, spirit, mind, body, like just that alone. We can talk about like how it affects your body, how it affects your mind, how it affects your spirit, but it also affects your relationships, right? Not only with the person that you lost, but the people that showed up and the people that you wish did that didn't, how the people that aren't talking to you about it, why it feels so isolating, it affects our identity, it affects our goals, like all at once instantly.

And it's like, how do you manage all that change all at once with so many major parts of your life, you know? Um, so yeah, so when it comes to, you know, the brain, you know, when Perry, when my son Perry died, I remember things like, um, walking into a grocery store and just forgetting why I was there. Stand there like in the, in the aisle staring at, you know, cereal boxes like they were written in another language. I remember people, um, were living like feeling like people were living their normal lives and I felt like I'd suffered some sort of head injury that no one can see, right? And that's, that's part of grief in the brain.

So that's really how grief affects your brain, right? So like your amygdala, that part that scans for a few minutes, right? That's always on high alert. It's shouting something terrible happened. Don't relax.

So you get flooded with fear and anxiety. Um, and meanwhile, you know, your prefrontal cortex, you know, the front part of your brain, um, that handles focus and decision-making slows way down. That's one of the reasons why I couldn't make simple choices or remember why I went to the store and, um, you know, I had clients even, you know, tell me they forgot to pick up their kids from school or they burned their dinner because their mind was wandering.

It, you know, it makes you feel crazy, but you're not. And it's really just biology. And then, you know, the hippocampus, which helps us process memory and time also gets scrambled.

And that's why, just like we spoke earlier, it feels like it can happen yesterday and 10 years ago all at once. And as you alliterated, you know, time doesn't move in a straight line more. So oftentimes when someone says something like, you know, I feel like I'm losing my mind, you know, I tell them, no, you know, your brain is really just adapting.

It's rewiring itself around, you know, this whole of loss that was created. It feels chaotic, you know, but it's not permanent. You know, the brain is like plastic and over time with small practices, you know, things like writing things down so you can get them out of your head, learning how to ground your body, safe connection with people who get it, you know, these pathways, they make new pathways.

So oftentimes grief can make us feel like we're broken. But the truth is our brain is really just showing how deep, you know, love can run. It's, you know, proof of the bond, not a sign of weakness.

So if the brain can make new pathways, why can't or why doesn't it make a new pathway so that the grief doesn't hurt so bad? Yeah, yeah, you know, it's the pain I feel is always going to be there, right? Like it's it never fully goes away. It's just learning how to integrate it, you know, into parts of your life. And a lot of times, you know, it comes down to what you're making it mean.

You know, oftentimes, like I'll be talking to somebody and they make it mean something a lot more or a lot worse than what it really is. You know, I mean, losing somebody sucks. I mean, it's the and a child is like the worst part.

Many medical professionals have considered it like the worst thing a human being can endure. Um, but, you know, it's also so it is adaptable. And we've been, we did, you know, I'm not saying that we evolved, you know, I'm not trying to talk about Christianity or non Christianity, that kind of thing.

But just we, we, we are made to adapt these to these kinds of things, right? It's all about what's happening up here, what you're making it mean. And then there's things that you actually can do, like physically do, like the worst thing that somebody can do is just do nothing and wait for time to heal. Like, because time doesn't heal all wounds.

That is not good advice when it comes to grief. You know, there are specific, you know, actions that you can take to teach yourself to adapt to that type of pain. So, specifically, what could you tell me about two or three of those so that our listeners can, and all of us can give those a try? There's so many different things, you can have one of the problems with grief is that like, you know, different things work for different people, right? And it's not like one thing, either.

And that's why I even hold these workshops, because you never really know what's going to work for you. But, you know, to answer your question, you know, in times when things feel really heavy, you know, there are grounding exercises, like just breathing. And, you know, I used to poo poo all this stuff.

Like, I, you know, I often tell people, you know, this may not be relevant, but just give some context, like, meeting my father is like walking directly into a scene from The Sopranos. Like, I grew up in like, Italian New York, like, you don't cry, like, like breathing, like, forget about it. Like, so, you know, I, none of these things were growing up were like, seems important.

But, you know, once I was forced to learn about these things and started doing them, you realize how you can use your body to calm your nervous system, because that's your nervous system is on, is freaking out when you lose someone, especially if it was traumatic, there's things going on in your body that you don't even know. But if you know what's happening, like so many people don't want to get out of bed, right? So many people are unmotivated, you know, and a lot of that is biological. And, you know, when you're when you don't want to get out of bed, and sometimes in those early, early days, like staying in bed, like, you know, do it, it's all about survival at that point, right? Like, just do what you got to do, unless you're hurting yourself or somebody else in the process.

You know, but at some point, at some point, you're forced to make a decision. Do I want to live here? You know, or do I want to do something right? And because of, you know, this thing is not meant, you know, and anybody who's listening, I'm pointing at my brain, it's not meant to keep you happy. It's meant to keep you alive, and it will, it will sacrifice every bit of your happiness to achieve that goal.

So, you know, even though it's saying, don't go outside, just lay down, just rest, you know, you're being the same, like, step start small, go outside, stand on your patio, let the sun hit your face, let the wind hit your face, let your nervous system know that you're alive in that, you know, you're still part of what's going on here. You know, take a walk. One of the best things that people can do is just even journaling.

Again, something I would poo-poo, but it's, you have so much going on in your brain that if when you start getting it out, there's something about that process. So like, I can remember, you know, early on, maybe, you know, a couple years when I started going to therapy and somebody recommended writing a letter to parent, writing a letter, everything you wish you would have said everything, you know, and it was, it was painful to think about, you know, it was painful to do. But I started, and then I remember like, a couple days later, I'd be like, oh, I wanted to tell them this about like, you know, I wish I could have taught you how to shave.

And I wish I'm, you know, I didn't even get to teach you about pearls and to see you get married and, you know, all the everything I can think of, you know, and all the I'm sorry's and I'm misses and all of those. And man, I'll tell you what, when it got to the point where it's like, it's all that, it's out, like, every time I'd remember something, I would add it like to it, you know, there's something very freeing about getting it all out of here, onto a piece of paper where you can see it, you know, so it's like think, and I can keep going on music for some people get up, move your body, move your body, shake, just, just like literally just shake your body. You know, physiology, you know, movement is what breaks the pattern, you know.

So there's a triad that I referred to, it's like, you know, in any moment that you're in, in any single moment, you could change the way that you feel by focusing on one of well, one of three things. The first thing is your physiology. Like if I said there's a depressed person behind door number three, you know, with their head be up or down, as you picture them, like they would be down with their shoulders, be back and strong, or would they be slumped over, they'd be slumped over and where they're be deep or would it be shallow, it'd be shallow, you know, so you're doing these things, you're shallow, you know, you don't even realize.

So, I mean, in these, everything I talk about, I try not to make theoretical, like literally fact check anything I'm saying. So it's, it's been proven that if you stand for two minutes, like in a power pose, like Superman with your hands on your hips and your feet steady wide, and you deep breathe deep, do that for two minutes and tell me that you don't feel different. You know, so things like that, like there's so many different things you can do.

It's just, you have to do them instead of just getting crushed by the weight of sadness, or for most people, now that I'm on this side, and I get to talk to so many people, the one consistent I see is guilt, you know, the guilt, some level of guilt, which is often in their, in people's minds, they know it's not their fault, but they still hold themselves responsible. Well, I can see as a parent that you think, well, this child is for me to protect. Of course.

And to help grow and to help not, you know, kill other people who do anything bad, right? And if harm comes to them, even through no fault of our own, isn't it just natural as a parent to say, what did I do? I mean, where did I not do what I should have done? Because now this child is dead, isn't that normal? Of course, absolutely normal. I mean, it's, it's every, yes, it's not only the parents, it's the siblings and other people too. They, you know, oftentimes I'll speak to somebody and talk to the one, I'm talking to the whole family and everybody, everybody feels a level of guilt for their own reason, you know, but, you know, in most cases, it's one of two things.

So it's either, you know, you feel guilty because either one, you actually did something, like you actually contributed to this person dying, which in 99.99% of the cases is not the case, even though people think it is, but it's not. In the vast majority of cases like mine and most people, you feel a level of guilt for that reason, if, especially if it's a child, because it's our primary responsibility to keep them safe. And it's your innate instinct as a parent to keep them, to protect them.

And you feel like you failed. Yeah. But we, you know, if it were, you know, I know this may seem extreme, but, you know, if we were in a court, a court of law and, and I had to prove that you're not guilty, you know, I understand that you feel guilty, but you did not cause this, you know, they know they would lose because they didn't cause it, but yet you still feel it.

And so, you know, why, you know, I even got curious, I got like, why does so many people, why does everybody feel guilty? And in these stories you hear, you always hear the, well, if I, if I only would have, maybe if I didn't do the, or if I didn't take that turn or whatever it may have been, you know, and through everything that I've learned, what I've found is that our brains would rather, it's easier for us to believe that we had some sense of control, like that you actually could have stopped this, this person that maybe committed suicide. If you said this one thing, or if you, you went this, you did this one act or didn't do this one thing that maybe they would still be here, or if I didn't take that trip. And that is natural.

It's easier for us to try and think that we could have stopped it than to believe that this world is just freaking chaotic. It's random and you have control over nothing, which is the fact, you know, and so, but it's people stay in this loop of, if I only, and if I only, and it's in, in most cases, if you say, if you replace, if only with, you know, even if the likely, the outcome would have still been the same in most of, in most cases, like, even if you did show up that time, they still would have taken their own life because mental health is extremely difficult to understand. Right.

So, yeah, that's, I guess, I think that, I think that as human beings, we don't want to believe that the world is random, that, you know, we did the series on getting cancer and getting cancer is a random mistake in the genetics, in the genes. But we don't want to believe that. We want to have the feeling that we have some control in the world.

And I guess maybe that's how we get through the day is to believe that we do. But I don't believe we have control. We don't.

We don't. I mean, I guess, you know, the argument that I'm playing in my mind is that, you know, there's some sense of control as to, like, if you don't smoke and you eat right. And yes, you could still get cancer, but like, there is some, there is some, what's the word I'm looking for, agency.

Like, we do have some control over that. But like, like what happened with, you know, in so many tragedies, you know, people will often blame themselves, you know, like car accidents, if I only would have made them stay home that night, you know, if I only, if they only would have taken the other car, if something like that, you know, and it's, I get it. Like, I get the feeling, but in most cases, it's, it's not your fault, you know, and most people just, you need to give yourself that permission to know that it's not your fault.

Yeah. You know, and then there's the part where so many people don't feel like they, they, they're allowed to feel joy anymore. Their child is gone, their person's gone, you know, I shouldn't be allowed to be happy, which is also not true.

Yeah. Well, it's, I think sometimes, in talking with people, I get the sense that either they wish it was them that died, or they want to die, because they don't want to be in a, you know, what I've heard is to be in a world where this person no longer is. But it seems, though, that we can honor that person's life and honor that person's death by finding a way maybe to make other people's lives better.

Yes. Like, we don't need to sit in the house and, and grieve full time, or remove any and every drop of joy and love out of our lives. No, no.

Yes. I mean, sitting, sitting in the house and grieving full time, that is a sure way not to heal. I mean, you know, so even like you look at, let's say that, you know, the Jewish tradition of sitting Shiva, right, which, you know, I think is such a beautiful tradition.

I think that, you know, we've lost something in this, when you look at the process of what they do through Shiva, it's, it's something we should bring back in some sense, because there's so much that makes sense to it, you know, you know, the process of actually letting the world know, right, like, I lost someone, I'm grieving, they sit on the floor, they don't talk, people bring them food, and there's a process, you don't just walk into somebody's house, you first, you cleanse yourself. So the way to think about that is, before you walk into somebody's house or lost somebody, think about like, the things that you're going to say, you know, and how you're going to treat this person, just, you know, look inward first, you're not allowed to talk to them first, unless they talk to you, you know, thinking about like, you know, just don't say random things, you know, you know, and help them look for ways to help them. And then at the end of seven days, they're supposed to go outside and take a walk.

And that represents, you know, coming back into society, not to mean like, you know, grief's gone good, I'm gonna, you know, not but it's just, you know, it's more, you know, representational. But it's taking the time to at least do the process, you do something, you know, and then also the way people treat you. But yeah, sitting inside is a sure way to go down quickly by yourself.

In the beginning, I get it, I did it, like I didn't want to be around anybody, things like that. But then over time, I started to notice that it's got worse, right? Like I was turning too many things down. I didn't want to talk to people.

And that's never a good sign. Yeah. So, you know, with things like this, especially if I'd say to anybody's listening, who's new in grief, you know, who's just getting started, definitely don't do it alone.

It's, you know, if you have to, in the beginning, do it alone. But then think about, you know, a couple if you're blessed enough to have some good friends or family with somebody that if you have somebody that's funny, that makes you laugh like a hyena. Think about them, somebody that's just a really good listener that won't judge you.

Think about them, you know, because if you don't ask for help, many people won't offer it because they're afraid to, they want to help you. They just don't know what to do or what to say. So they don't say anything because they think it's going to make you scared.

So, you know, oftentimes when I'm coaching people is to, it's okay to ask, it's important to ask for help, you know, and to know how to ask for it, you know, say, can you, can you just get me out of the house today? I just need to get out of here, you know, but the right person it's, you know, it's, it's, it, it, the community matters in the beginning because too many people try to rush people through grief, try to just, you know, make, fix them and that's not the way to do it. Just having somebody around is important. And I go back, you were talking a few minutes ago about physiology and how movement breaks the pattern of, of the grief.

And you said it's like a triangle with the physiology at the top or at one of the points, what are the other two points of the triangle? Yeah. The other one, you know, is what you're focusing on, right? Because where focus goes, energy flows, right? You know, are you focusing on everything that you, that you have or that you don't have? Are you focusing on everything that you lost? You know, I, I, because I can choose to focus on all of the parts of me that died with Perry, right? Like I can choose to focus on that and sit in that. And sometimes I do, or I can choose to focus on all the parts of him that he left in me.

And I choose to focus on the latter more than the former. So, you know, you, there's so much that we don't have control over as we just talked about, right? Like, we don't have control over what someone does or what's going to happen or, or the economy, the weather, whatever it might be, but what we think about what we focus on. And also, you know, the words that we use, which is the third component, the component of the triad, like what, you know, what, what are you saying? Because so many people will say things like, I'm broken.

You know, I, my life is over, you know, may I might, you know, your life may never be the same. It won't be the same without that person. But it's not over.

Right. And you're not broken. So, you know, any of the IM statements are like, very powerful.

So you got to be careful what you say out loud, you know, so you can, you know, yes, you can be in a lot of pain, but you're learning to, you're learning how to carry it, you know, so you just have to be, you know, those three things, you know, what, change your body, change how you're focusing on it and change the words that you're using. If you, if you change, if you change any one of those three things, it will affect the state that you're in. And if changing one of those will, will it have an effect on the other two? I mean, it may, it may, you know, I mean, I always start with physiology, just because, you know, laying down and doing something is never the same as getting it into your body.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's even making noises, you know, things like that. These are like, they go into like the deepest parts of our brain, you know, so like, you know, doing something like physiological sigh, like a specific type of grounding technique, you know, where it's like you breathe in deep, as deep as you can, and then take a little bit more and, and then exhale if even longer than you inhale.

But as you exhale, you're like going, ah, like it's, you feel silly when you do it. But like, when you read the science about it, what that does, it helps release a lot of this stuff. Hmm.

Yeah. We should do a sign support group. Do they have things like that? I don't know.

But these are things like I get people, you know, in the beginning, in the beginning of my workshop, I, you know, I'll say that we're going to do things that you haven't done before, it may get a little be a little uncomfortable. But, you know, you, I often say what growing up, my best friend's father is an Egyptian immigrant. Brilliant, man.

Oh, my gosh, super successful. And he said something to me at a young age that stuck with me. Something I was scared to do, but it was going to improve my, my life.

And, you know, he looked at me and said, if you can't, then you must. If there's anything that's like standing in your way, and you know, it's, you know, it's going to make your life better, but you're scared, whether it's to go talk to a beautiful woman or to go ask for something that you need. Anytime you feel I can't instantly go take action on it, you know, and that's something I've done, you know, my whole life and has probably been one of the biggest pieces of advice I've ever gotten.

So, you know, I try to plant that seed early on because you don't know what's going to work for you and what's not going to work for you. And sometimes, sometimes you can find your comfort zone just outside of your comfort zone, if you're willing to look there. That was really wise advice, wasn't it? I mean, you think of all the things, even standing on a diving board, you know, with all your friends down in the water, it's like you say to yourself, I can't do this.

And you really have to say to yourself, you must do this because there's so much at stake with your buddies down in the water. Yeah, you know, that's so funny that you say that because I let that almost exact experience happen to me. Like probably 15 years ago, you know, my brothers, do you know what Tony Robbins is? Yeah.

So my brothers worked for Tony Robbins for a long time. And he's like, these like this super like, adrenaline junkie, like loves to do things that are crazy. Anyway, long story short, he said, Hey, you want to come with me to Fiji? I said, Yes.

He said, one condition, you have to jump out of an airplane with me. And I'm scared of heights, like I don't like I'll do it, but I don't like it. So, you know, leading up to it, you know, you know, Mike, go in there, I told all my friends told my son, you know, like, I'm going to do this thing.

So my point is, is that it was scarier for me to think about going home and saying that I went out to my son and all my people then to jump out. Like I knew I had to jump. So, yeah, in those cases, like when you're scared, you almost have to find something scarier than not, you know, yeah.

How did jumping out the plane go for you? Oh my gosh, I know there is a video of it. I have a video. It's hysterical because so we did it from 15,500 feet, which is, you know, to give you perspective, generally clouds are around 7000 feet.

So, you know, as the plane was going up, the doors open, and, you know, broke through the clouds. And one of the guys was like, all right, we're almost halfway there. I was like, oh, halfway, like, I was already like, like, oh, my God.

But as I jump out of the plane, the fear, I mean, pure terror, like you can see absolute terror on my face for like two seconds, and then it's all smiles. And I'll tell you what, when you're afraid of something, when you're unbelievably afraid of something, and you do it anyway, there is a power on the other side of that, that I can't explain. I mean, growing up, I smoked pot, I've done drugs, like, the high that I'm talking about, I got from the jumping out of that airplane is something very different.

You feel like you can accomplish anything. For like a week, I was like, on this high. So, also taught me like, when you're afraid, you got to keep doing it.

You know, you see, you, you, it's there's rewards for breaking through that fear. Yeah, that's why I think what's It was probably a great lesson for your son, too, is first of all, for you to say, I'm afraid of this. Yeah.

And then second of all, to be able to come home and say, I was afraid. Yeah, but I did Yeah, yeah. And you know, sometimes that weighs heavily on me, too.

You know, because I think about the moments, you know, everything that happened with Perry. Yeah, you know, I know that my craziest spirit was in him, too. But, you know, in that moment, from everything I know, I believe he did not want to be on that boat in that moment, but he didn't want to say no.

No. But that's another story. But yes, yes.

You know, the point is that when you do things that you haven't done before, you know, oftentimes, you know, our brain automatically goes to strategy, right? Like how, what's the how? So another thing I mentioned in my workshops, too, is right at the very beginning is, you know, I want you to write down the tyranny of how. It's because if you worry about the how, you know, oftentimes the result doesn't show up. If you worry about the how, you have to be more concerned with the why, right? Like why? So one question as part of the workshop I'll email in advance is to email me back your why.

Why are you doing this? Why are you investing time and resources to go through this 12-week program? What is the outcome that you want? And what is the outcome if you keep living the same way you are now? How will that affect your life? How will that affect your job? How will it affect your relationships? And how will it affect it if you learn to carry this with grace and power? How will it affect it then, you know? So my point is when your why is big enough, the how just shows up. Ah, well, I think that that's a profound way to end our interview and to give, you know, our listeners, you know, what I'd like you guys to do is to really think about what is your why? And if you are able to approach and understand your why, does the how show up? Does it feel right? And I think it's a worthwhile lesson for us to learn in terms of, you know, I always say, you know, trust the universe. And sometimes the things that happen within the universe, we say, I'm not trusting that.

I've gotten hurt. I've gotten, you know, lost. These things have happened to me when the universe is allowed to take over.

But Phil, do you think that the universe will bring people their how? Well, you know, you look at every great story, right? Like every great book or a lot of great movies. And, you know, you look at something horrible that happened. And a villain in a story, generally, is somebody that said, the world, the universe has hurt me.

So I'm going to hurt it back. But the hero is somebody who says, the world has hurt me. But I'm going to do everything I can to not let somebody else feel that pain.

You know, so you have a choice. You know, do you want to be a hero or a villain in some cases? I'm not saying that you have to go one way or the other. But, you know, it's, yeah, I mean, you know, we're never going to have, you know, specific reasons why things happen, right? Like, we'll never know.

Like, I'll never have all my answers as to why. And while why is a reasonable question to ask in the beginning, like, because there may be answers there, you know, like why this happened, there may be valid answers there. It wasn't until I started asking, like, okay, well, what now? You know, like, what can I do that things started to change? And that's, I think, I think it's hard to think about the what now when you're obsessing over the why.

Yeah. And sometimes you have to put that package down so that your hands are free to pick up that how piece, that how package. Because that's got some pretty good stuff in it.

And the world has some pretty good stuff in it. Staying isolated and staying hurt is not really to our advantages. And in my own way of thinking, I think that it's a dishonor to the person who's died.

It's like, you know, why would you give up your life just because I'm not around? Yeah, you know, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm Christian by faith. So, you know, for me, in my mind, I know where Perry is, and I believe I will see him again. And that definitely helps for those people, I think, you know.

But, you know, the fact is, you know, they're, they're not here, right? And you are. And it's, if you're, if you're just staying inside one, look at the science, it's proven that it's way worse than drinking, like, I forgot how many numbers of beer, like, it's, it's one of the worst things you can do is to isolate yourself. But the fact is, it does, that's, it's not, you know, it's not serving you.

It's not serving anybody that loves you. And it's, as you just said, it's not serving the person that you lost, you know, and sometimes the way that we grieve can honor or dishonor the person that we've lost. So, you know, like, I know, I know, I will see Perry again.

For me, it's like, you know, I look, I look forward to that moment, you know, but for what, while I'm here, you know, I'm, I still live every moment I can to help other people, you know, and to, to live and enjoy my life because grief and joy can coexist. You know, there are days when I cry and there are days when I have fun, but I don't, I don't let the having fun part get me down or think that I'm not allowed to do that. Yeah.

There's so much here, I know, because there's so much I want to say, there's like so much I want to share with people because there's so much to know. And I'm so frustrated with people just being handed five stages and told to just give it time. Yeah, because it doesn't work that way.

And it's really a disservice. Well, I'm glad that you're going to be with us on a monthly basis and, and share your wisdom and share your ideas. And my hope is that for our listeners is that they get a different perspective, and maybe take some steps to grieve a little differently and be healthier and happier in this world.

So thank you very much for joining us. And we'll see you again in a few weeks. Amazing.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that interview, Phil and Marianne.

For our third half, I have a poem from D.L. White. D.L. White is an Anglo-Irish poet and author currently living in the UK. The poem is about finding out the poet Andrea Gibson had died.

Andrea Gibson, I'm making my son's lunch when I find out you've died, cutting up carrot and cucumber while crying. He tilts his tiny head, furrows his precious brow and asks me, Daddy, are you all right? And I remember what you said about truth. Even when the truth isn't hopeful, the telling of it is.

So I tell him no, I'm not all right. A poetry angel has taken flight and Daddy is very sad about it. I know it sounds far-fetched, but I think he understands in the way trees understand soil.

He opens his arms wide as a bridge and lunges for a hug. And I remember what you said about heartbeats. If you were to press your heart close up against somebody else's heart, eventually your hearts will start beating at the same time.

I feel a desperate instinct to retreat, take my sorrow to the spare room, close the curtains, turn off the lights, hide from anyone who might dare to care about me, to look at my collection of wounds higher than alone. But I remember what you said about relationships. We gather each other up.

We say the cup is half yours and half mine. We say alone is the last place you will ever be. I call my wife and tell her about a growing ache in my stomach, how unfair it is that a poet of such monumental importance now only exists in memories.

But she reminds me what you said about death. Dying is the opposite of leaving. I want to echo it through the corridor of your temples.

I am more with you than I ever was before. My heart swells grateful as I realize you're not gone. You're still right here, in books on my shelf, videos in my feed, words etched in my skull, hope echoing through my bones.

You are still here, more than ever. How lucky I am, how privileged we all are, to have glimpsed your soul through a miraculous lens, a pen dripped in cosmic ink, a voice so authentic it could have been wounded stars, an immutable spirit set wild and free. How inspiring, how wonderfully inspiring you are.

I flick through your books too afraid to land on a single page, in case the words spontaneously combust upon reading, or sprout wings, escape their paper prison to be free, as words should be, with you in the afterwards. But what I'm most afraid of is the words won't be the same shape ever again, that the weight of loss presses them into crueler, cruder, angrier creatures, that the meaning will be tainted by mourning. I feel a tension in the meat of my heart, not a rip or tear, but the start of a long pull, when it releases the flesh, will be softer, slacker.

And I remember what you said about hearts. In the end, I want my heart to be covered in stretch marks. I ideate myself out of existence, as I often do when downed dark.

The tricksy little limp, whispering from the backseat, implores me to spin the car off a cliff, to join you. And I remember what you said about grief, that every falling leaf is a tiny kite with a string too small to see, held by the part of me in charge of making beauty out of grief. So I'm writing.

I don't know if it's beautiful yet, not the way you are. Your consonants dance with your vowels, your sentences have curves and edges, your poetry can sail a ship or bend a spine, dress a wound or slice the moon, while mine seem edgeless by comparison. And I remember what you said about creating.

We have to create. It's the only thing louder than destruction. So today, like millions of others whose hearts you squeezed, I'll create, so that I'm not destroyed.

And I'll let my heart break. Because I remember what you said about breaking hearts. Let your heart break, so your spirit doesn't.

And so ends this week's episode. Please stay tuned for the continuing saga of Everyone Dies, and thank you for listening. This is Charlie Navarette.

And from stand-up comedian Susan Rice, I'm 70 years old! Nobody gets married for the first time at 70. No! Unless there is a verified pension and a diagnosis. And I'm Marian Matzo, and we'll see you next week.

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