Opto Sessions – Invest in the Next Big Idea

Blockchain Stocks to Watch in 2025

• Haydn Brain & Ed Gotham

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Christian Magoon, CEO of Amplify ETFs, joins OPTO Sessions to share expert insights into blockchain investing. We dive deep into performance of blockchain-related stocks in 2024 and analyze the impact of the Bitcoin halving cycle on the market. Christian discusses key investment opportunities within the blockchain space, trends among Bitcoin miners, and the future of blockchain technology beyond cryptocurrency. 

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The content in this podcast is for informational purposes only. Opto Markets LLC does not recommend any specific securities or investment strategies. Investing involves risk & investments may lose value, including the loss of principal. Past performance does not guarantee future results. Investors should consider their investment objectives and risks carefully before investing. The information provided is not an endorsement of this product and is for information and/or educational purposes only.

Welcome to the show, Christian. How are things? Doing well off to a good start in 2025 kind of exciting time. So looking forward to see what the markets will have in store for us this year. Yeah, absolutely, as are we. So today we're going to talk about blockchain. We're going to hopefully present a bit of a thematic outlook for that theme looking ahead to the rest of 2025. But before we do that, I think to set the context, it'll be useful for listeners to understand exactly how 2024 treated blockchain related stocks. Can you talk us through the main headwinds and tailwinds in that space? Yeah, it was kind of a mixed year, really in the blockchain and kind of corollary crypto equity space. Started the year off with kind of some of the headwinds that we've seen over the last few years from the U.S. presidential administration. And finally, some of those headwinds ceased in January when essentially a court case against the SEC was won by an ETF issuer. to bring Bitcoin ETFs to US retail investors. And that occurred, at least the launch of those Bitcoin ETFs occurred in January of this past year. And that really started to change the tides quite a bit. Ethereum ETFs began to follow. Certainly we had the halving in April, which was quite bullish for the blockchain and crypto space. And then we ran into kind of MicroStrategy, one of the probably premier Bitcoin holding companies being included in the NASDAQ 100, as well as the Trump election. Trump had pivoted kind of famously to crypto and blockchain and has included many of those people in the administration. that really was pro crypto, pro blockchain. Sure enough, our BLOK ETF, which goes back to 2018, is really the premier fund here in the US to access blockchain and crypto equity exposure, returned just over 50 % on the year, with now a three year average annualized return of just over 25%. So an above average year based off the last three years, for sure, almost double that average. And we think that 2025 could be shaping up So for some more bullish moves in that market. Yeah, fantastic. I want to come back to the BLOK ETF to understand exactly how the fund did deliver those returns. But before we do, you mentioned the halving cycle there, which is obviously a key kind of milestone in last year's related activities. Did it have the kind of anticipated effect on blockchain equities? Or perhaps you can give us a bit of context there. How did it compare to previous cycles perhaps? Yeah, good question. You know, I think this having was a little bit more muted because of some of the kind of crosswinds happening around the world, whether that's geopolitical tensions or central banks, you know, kind of interest rate cycle, et cetera. But, know, it was generally bullish for, you know, blockchain equities for sure to have a 50 % or so year across the board. And, you know, when you look at kind of the blockchain investment thesis, there are companies that are more sensitive to crypto. Those tend to be the crypto miners, some of the Bitcoin holding companies. Then there's companies that are less sensitive to crypto that are really working on the long-term blockchain technology. Many of those are financial service companies, transaction companies, payment companies. And they just aren't as sensitive to the moves in crypto, but acts as a nice barbell to even out some of the volatility in the space. So I'd say it's maybe a little bit more muted. But part of that is by design. When you're investing in blockchain, you're including the technology companies working on the overarching of blockchain. And then you're investing in these companies that are sensitive to one of the use cases of blockchain, which is crypto and cryptocurrency. Yeah, fantastic. And to dig into this theme then to understand exactly which companies it represents and covers beyond the obvious miners, which sub themes or industries within that blockchain universe should our investors be paying attention to? Yeah, so, you in our fund, in the BLOK Fund, BLOK, we see a variety of kind of unique segments. So certainly one of those segments is crypto miners, but it's not the largest. Our largest segment is transactional players. So these are companies that maybe operate crypto exchanges or are processing crypto payments via blockchain or accepting cryptocurrency. So you see companies that maybe aren't as crypto centric in many people's minds, but are processing a lot of crypto related transactions. So that'd be a company like Block, formerly known as Square or PayPal, even MasterCard and Visa are getting in on the action. Beyond that, there's ways to essentially get exposure to blockchain via cryptocurrency holding. So you see companies like MicroStrategy, as we mentioned, and MetaPlanet out of Japan who are owning Bitcoin on their balance sheet and using, you know, essentially financial engineering to not only acquire Bitcoin, provide exposure either through convertible bonds to new types of issuers, financial institutions that want access to crypto like products, but maybe can't own crypto instead. Maybe they own convertible bonds or maybe very soon, you know, preferred securities from MicroStrategy. And those are companies that are included in block as a way to get exposure. In addition, Block does own spot Bitcoin ETFs. It's done so for close to three years, both in Canada previously and in the US. So you are able to actually own indirectly that exposure to Bitcoin and we believe Ethereum as well and likely other cryptos that come to market in a 40 act form here in the US. There's also various other types of companies in the technology and application space. So it's a very diverse portfolio of what kind of encompasses blockchain. Most people know blockchain stocks as really the crypto centric names, but there are many other more traditional names that are using blockchain technology or interacting with crypto. We think in 2025 as the regulatory environment changes, especially here in the U.S. We're going to see a lot more pure play blockchain companies come to market, spin-offs of blockchain units and large conglomerates. And certainly there's an appetite for that from a regulatory standpoint and from a capital market standpoint. So it should be a really good year in the next year or two to see more of these blockchain centric companies come out. Yeah, and I guess just to quickly pick up on the other side of that coin, the non-related or less related or less correlated companies within that overall blockchain universe. Just interested to understand which sub-themes or industries did show a bit of a decoupling from what was a pretty of stark upward trend in the Bitcoin price. I think it rose over 120 % in 2024. Which industries within this overall universe do present a and less correlated exposure than the Bitcoin price. Yeah, well, this past year, it's definitely the financial companies that are in that space. So if you look at a Visa, a MasterCard, a Block formerly known as Square, those companies gained anywhere from 12 to 13 percent to maybe as much as 23, 24 percent. about half of what the over kind of all blockchain crypto equity space gained at about 53, 54 percent and obviously considerably less than Bitcoin itself. Now that's the kind of the value proposition of the block ETF. When you're investing in blockchain companies with a subset being crypto companies, you see various levels of sensitivity to moves in crypto. Ultimately, we're investing in the underlying technology of blockchain and that it does include crypto, but many of these applications that are really being piloted, often times in the private market, whether that's home equity lines of credit being done. within five hours versus five days on the blockchain or insurance contracts on the blockchain, securities transactions on the blockchain, potentially voting on the blockchain, medical records on the blockchain. Many of these applications really aren't out in public company format yet, but we expect some of them to come out in pure play company format over the next year to two as regulations change. And that's kind of the big overarching theme is. Most of the action, if you will, or excitement in the blockchain space has been in the crypto side. But again, we think the underlying technology of blockchain offers a lot of promise going into the future. We have the ability to pivot from more of a crypto centric portfolio to more of a blockchain technology portfolio in terms of use cases. And that's what we continue to see since 2018. You know, the fund turned seven years old this year. There's many investors who maybe have only discovered crypto equities or blockchain in the last few years and we've been around and been able to generate those returns and I that's why our approach, our actively managed product and portfolio managers really provide an edge and have delivered the types of returns to traditional equity investors that help diversify their portfolio, either way from traditional equities. or maybe as a barbell to an underlying crypto portfolio that may be quite volatile. Yeah, fantastic. I'm glad we were able to flesh out that point because as you, I think, rightly pointed out, is fundamental to the value proposition of the fund itself. Before we move away completely though from the miners, I think they're an interesting sub-segment to pick up, not least because of the Bitcoin performance that I mentioned a moment ago. We saw, I guess, a mixed picture from some of the miners at least over the last 12 months or so with some obviously outperforming in line with that Bitcoin price correlation and then some struggling relatively speaking. Perhaps you can talk to us about the factors that contributed to that divergence. And then as a follow up, are there miners that you see that have competitive advantages that help them differentiate from the other miners in this space? Yeah, like any industry or, know, sub industry, each company is different, whether that's their management structure, their technology stack, their access to capital, their long term strategic plan. And we're starting to see separation in the miners. So this is one area where, you know, buying an index of all the miners is probably not the way to go because there's big differences in mining companies. And, you know, some of these differences could be standard like a typical company. What's their balance sheet look like? What is their access to technology and to capital? What is their cost of power, their input cost to mine Bitcoin? On the other side, it could be kind of what their strategy is. Some of these miners have consistently sold off their Bitcoin and tried to monetize that. Others are hodlers and like Michael Saylor at MicroStrategy has done, has benefited some of these miners from huddling over time and are developing a very strong asset within their business as the price of Bitcoin rises. They're not just turning around and dumping it. Other management teams are thinking so far forward that all the work they've done to build out their capacity, their tech stack, their access to power. has allowed them to now build a secondary business or focus on data centers for artificial intelligence. And as that is being built out, crypto mining companies that have been forward looking, who have this experience and have access to the power and these experience in data centers are landing multi-year, sometimes 10-year contracts from big hyperscalers and adding a new source of revenue. to their business. The mining business can be a binary game. You're either having success mining crypto and doing it efficiently from your tech and power stack, or you're struggling. Well, if you start to add long-term contracts from some of these hyperscaler companies that we know that are world-renowned names, that really helps to smooth out your revenue and your cash flow. and tends to be a really good thing for shareholders. And you've seen some of those returns creep into the stock. So when you're buying miners, good chance that buying an index, you're buying a lot of bad apples. And instead, we think an active manager approach and research is really important in this area. Expect to see a lot of consolidation potentially in the next year or two in this space as well, because of the different profiles of these companies. Whether that's needing different management, access to capital, or even upgrading their tech stacks, especially here after the halving, rewards are less than ever before. Yeah, absolutely. does seem that's the way the industry is headed and particularly those companies able to diversify their revenue streams are the ones that are going to out compete over the long term. To follow up on that then, among BLOK's holdings, BLOK ETF, Ticker, BL, OK, perhaps you could just highlight one or two stocks or holdings that you're particularly excited about and give us a sense of why they're exciting and what sets them apart from peers in the same in queue system. Yeah, well, you can look at BLOK's holdings every day we display them. there are two mining companies in the top 10 holdings of BLOK. At number three in terms of holdings is the mining firm, Corn Scientific. And this is one of those mining firms that has successfully migrated from just a Bitcoin miner to doing AI data centers. And they are indeed looking at about 50-50 in terms of their revenue coming in 2025 from Bitcoin mining and operating data centers for hyperscalers. And again, these are long-term contracts, sometimes going out as long as 10 years and quite profitable. So they've turned their expertise into being able to do a secondary business that is again, a great compliment to the more transactional side on Bitcoin mining. So one to definitely keep in mind. At number 10 in the portfolio is CleanSpark. And CleanSpark is another very innovative mining company. And I think what maybe sets them apart is their financials are very attractive. They have good operators, but also they've been quite aggressive in talking about how they can use the Bitcoins on their balance sheet to potentially create a new form of cashflow. know, in the U.S. here, there's going to be we think maybe even day one, January 20th on the inauguration day, or maybe thereafter, a variety of executive orders from President Trump that will really clear up some of the regulatory uncertainty or potentially even reverse some regulations that have been problematic. And one of the potential interesting developments for these companies that hold crypto, specifically Bitcoin, whether it's these miners or these balance sheet companies like maybe a MicroStrategy, is that when the US ETFs launched, the SEC didn't allow for in-kind creation. So basically meant you can't deliver Bitcoin to them for them to take into their fund. That's quite unusual in the US. Usually when you have an ETF, you can deliver the securities in-kind that make up the underlying ETF. and then they'll give you shares back. But this is something the SEC wasn't comfortable with, with Bitcoin ETFs. And we think that's likely to be reversed. That's likely to be reversed. Now, these Bitcoin mining companies and Bitcoin treasury companies could potentially deliver their Bitcoin to some of these large Bitcoin ETFs in an exchange actually hold Bitcoin ETF shares. Now, why would they do that? Well, here's one advantage. By holding those shares, they now could potentially loan those out and receive securities lending revenue or a stream of income for holding those shares, just like investors can today on holding individual stocks receive securities lending income if indeed there's an appetite to borrow those securities. Now, is that going to be utilized by all of these companies that hold Bitcoin? Probably not. don't really know if Michael Saylor is going to be confident loaning out some of his Bitcoin or exchanging some of his Bitcoin for Bitcoin ETF shares. You know, he's definitely a Bitcoin maxi and a purist. There is no second best when it comes to that space, according to Michael Saylor. So, you know, I'm guessing he thinks Bitcoin ETF shares would be second best. However, companies like CleanSpark, maybe even Core Scientific, may explore this as a way to really monetize the Bitcoin on their balance sheet. So those are two miners that I think are companies to take a look at, both due to their strategic options, their evolving business plans, and the creativity they're using to try to get the most of their assets, either reusing their experience on data centers or their access to power to emerge into this AI data center business, which is booming, or to further monetize the Bitcoin on their balance sheet. Yeah, fantastic. Really interesting. Not something I'd heard before, actually. I want to pick up on one of your points or kind of the relationships, I suppose, that you described earlier. That is blockchain related equities and the funds that offer exposure to them and their relationship with spot ETFs, spot Bitcoin ETFs. What exactly does a big hype and buzz around the spot ETFs that we've seen over the past 12 months or so mean for blockchain related ETFs like BLOK? Yeah, I think it's quite bullish. know, having, you know, physical Bitcoin backed ETFs and Ethereum ETFs out in the marketplace is really a validation to ETF investors. you know, ETF investors generally are used to buying regulated products that are, you know, 40 act in nature oftentimes that are publicly traded, that have service providers that are quite familiar. You know, the the crypto world is a little bit more opaque to them. It's unusual to them. They don't know maybe many of the service providers and they may not want to have a wallet or cold storage options. They just not going to do that. So when it comes to Bitcoin ETFs, this really kind of puts a stamp of approval or familiarity at least on the asset class and how that relates to blockchain and crypto equity ETFs is it really kind of further legitimizes that industry and the asset that's primary focused in that industry. One analogy we've heard made is if you look at gold, gold is an asset that people have owned for many years. And there's a way to also have exposure to gold through equities. And that's the old gold mining companies, gold exploration companies. Oftentimes those companies can deliver a different return experience than gold. They tend to be often more volatile at times and can have leverage returns both on the upside and the downside. Blockchain isn't yet to that space, although there are some types of companies, especially these crypto miners and maybe some of the Bitcoin treasury companies that do have a leveraged kind of return profile relative to Bitcoin. the Bitcoin technology companies, the Bitcoin application company, sorry, the blockchain technology and blockchain application companies really don't have that as of right now because many of them, the initiatives they're working on in blockchain are buried in a larger company like a Visa, a MasterCard, an IBM, a PayPal, a Block, formerly known as Square. So I think that's the next leg in this space is to see more of those pure play blockchain applications. in public traded companies that are out in the marketplace providing solutions using blockchain technology. you know, round trip, think overall it's bullish, creates familiarity with the asset class of crypto, specifically Bitcoin and Ethereum right now in the ETF space. And I think that will eventually trickle up to blockchain. You know, when most people first found the internet, they knew the internet, not as the internet, but they knew email or they knew a website, but they didn't really understand the overall technology of the internet and all the future businesses that would be built on the internet, all the different use cases, whether that's advertising or search engines or streaming video. So, however, you know, if you invested early on in those different types of applications of internet technology and didn't just stay invested in website companies or email type companies, you really benefit it. And I think that's kind of where we are right now. Most people know blockchain technology more from a crypto standpoint and haven't really seen all the other use cases that are likely to emerge across a dozen or so industries because of that, you know, efficiency, that transparency, that decentralized nature that, you know, a digital world really requires now. And many of our industries, many of the Ways that we do business are stuck 50 to 100 years ago in physical transactions and having middle people or middle firms have to verify data and blockchain really solves that. And that's where we think we're going longer term. And that's kind of the excitement that you can kind of get some of the alpha now from the crypto side and then hopefully be early to the game when it comes to. some of the other blockchain applications and industries that we believe will emerge over the coming years. Yeah, got it. I think that internet analogy helps to really illuminate the investment case here. So I think that's really helpful. And I want to now for the kind of last portion of the interview turn to BLOK and kind of focus explicitly on the fund and how it's managed. You've referenced it already. BLOK is actively managed. So why do you think that's so necessarily in this rapidly evolving space versus a passive or market cap weighted strategy? Yeah, there's a variety of reasons we wanted to go active when we launched this strategy in 2018. We actually looked at whether or not we should do an index based strategy or move to an active strategy. And if you can think about this, know, most indexes rebalance maybe four times a year. Oftentimes it's more like twice a year. You know, imagine only being able to invest in the space when you have information four times a year or two times a year. all the developments, all the new projects, all the market dynamics you'd not be able to react to or take advantage of if you only had two to four times a year to make an investment decision. know, blockchain crypto is a fast moving space. We really felt like being active, being able to buy and sell every single day, even though we have to show our portfolio and our transactions every single day. would be an ultimate advantage for the fund. And indeed, it's really done well relative to some of the index solutions that are out there. And that's why I believe BLOK is and continues to be the largest fund focused in this blockchain crypto equity space. In addition, as we talked about earlier, doing research, meeting with actual management, understanding their business plan. understanding a variety of kind of their strategic initiatives is quite important. And our portfolio management team has done that since the beginning. Dan Weisskopf, Mike Venuto has really taken a team approach from TIDAL and have gone in and actually set foot in some of these mining facilities and looked at kind of their actual setup. How are they cooling their miners? What's their cost of power? You know, are they engaging with AI data center contracts? That really makes a difference when you have to sort through many of these companies that are fast moving and are new to the scene. At the same time, looking at just, you know, the blockchain area, a lot of those initiatives are kind of R &D, they're future projects. So whether it's, you know, IBM building out a food safety blockchain for use by Walmart and others to track produce from farm to stores and be able to control their inventory and look at chain of custody from the farm to the truck, to the ship, to the port, to the truck, to a distribution center, to an actual store, to the shelf where you buy that cucumber or avocado. It's a big deal because that process used to take around 10 days, for example, to track the full chain of custody when it was not on the blockchain. When it's now on the blockchain, takes less than two minutes. And that really is a big deal for safety around food, whether that's produce or even other types of manufactured products. So that's just like one use case. And to understand that, you really have to have analysts that are digging in. You can't simply have a formula that says we're going to buy any company that has R &D going in to blockchain. Well, You know, what percentage of focus is there R &D there? Is it meaningful or do we believe it's going to be meaningful in the future? So active management research is important. Also, I would say risk control and position sizing. So, you know, this space is affected by bull and bear markets in crypto, and we've seen it since 2018. So the managers have the ability to become more or less aggressive, if you will, or sensitive to crypto. based on what kind of phase the market's in. In addition, some of these companies, like a MicroStrategy, who first began buying MicroStrategy at $14, a split adjusted price in BLOK. These companies really have an ability to run up quite a bit and you have to maintain discipline on position sizing. So you don't have a fund that someone buys and 30 % is in one stock. So with MicroStrategy trading, well over 300 today. We've had to trim that position over time and the managers have been disciplined in doing that and making sure the portfolio stays diversified and limits some of the risks from a position sizing standpoint. So those are just some of the reasons we think active makes sense and that's why we believe we are the largest fund in that space kind of through that proof point, building that track record since January of 2018. Yeah, fantastic. I was keen to touch on sort of volatility management and risk management, so I'm glad we're able to do that. I mean, kind of almost going back a step, can you talk to us about some of the key metrics, both qualitative and quantitative, that you use to identify potential constituents? How do you screen for the holdings in this fund? Yeah, so, you know, in general, we're looking for, you know, companies that are working and engaging on blockchain technology. So, you know, there's some simple ones that were are obvious. Those are many of the crypto exchange companies, companies that are working on processing crypto transactions have applications that are crypto centric. We also where it gets a little bit more complicated is the companies that are. not necessarily in the crypto space, but are working on blockchain technology initiatives. So we're able to look at kind of what's their R &D process. Are they engaged in different research consortiums? What type of products do they have out in the marketplace that they're either testing or implementing with clients? Do they have revenue from those? Do they have a market share? If they don't have revenue from those products, what's their market share look like? And the portfolio managers essentially are trying to create a diversified portfolio, you know, anywhere from 30 to 50 names in general that are going to be comprised with, you know, across the stack. Maybe what's changed since 2018 is we've been able to own indirectly Bitcoin exposure. We own GBTC at one point, you know, then we migrated to Canadian spot Bitcoin ETFs and today we own US-spot Bitcoin ETFs. And I expect that over time, that's going to continue to expand to other cryptos to have those types of approaches to blockchain technology. Because there's a big difference in potentially owning a Solana ETF and the use case for Solana relative to Bitcoin. And BLOK is likely to embrace those types of future innovation should they become available to US ETF investors. Yeah, fantastic. And to finish the interview, then, just keen to look ahead and we don't need to discuss any kind of specific price predictions or anything like that. currently, Bitcoin, obviously, I have heavily kind of correlated or related asset to the BLOK ETF is trading relatively sideways, has been for the last couple of months or so. Do you, I suppose, in the context of long-term investment and those investors with a long-term time horizon, do you see that as a potential buying opportunity? And perhaps you can give us bit of insight as to why you think that price is relatively flat. Yeah, so I think, you know, some of the Bitcoin price, you know, as we record this, we're, you know, maybe $10,000 off the highs, you know, mid 90s, we think we're, you know, 105 or so recently. And I think there's some FUD going on, you know, there's a presidential administration that's changing here in the US. And alongside that, there'll be some likely some regulatory regime change. that likely will make it quite positive. But there's some uncertainty on what exactly that will be. Will the talk match the walk when it comes to the Trump administration and crypto regulations? We believe it's going to. And all signs point to some great personnel being included in the Trump administration, whether it's one of our besties, David Sachs, being the crypto czar or other ancillary officials like Elon Musk, certainly Vivek, very pro crypto, RFK Jr., pro crypto. So we think that the talk will match the walk and that is an accelerant, we believe, not only for the blockchain technology space, but also kind of that crypto use case. And we do think there's a strong chance that we could see a strategic Bitcoin reserve be developed here in the U.S. You know, it's very likely the U.S. has been selling Bitcoin recently. If you've been following the headlines, that would be on brand for the Biden administration. It would not be on brand for the Trump administration. In fact, likely Trump will be buying those coins back, again, based off what we've heard from him so far. And I think he sees the value in having this type of participation by the US government in one of the most finite, secure, efficient assets that is out there and likely will be one of the building blocks as a store of value across the globe. And we have dominance in the fiscal side because of the US dollar. And we don't want to give up that dominance to a more potentially efficient, finite. asset like Bitcoin. So we need to be part of that, in my opinion, and I think in the Trump administration's opinion. I think this dip is quite bullish for investors in crypto and also those that are thinking about making another type of investment, which is different than the Bitcoin investment. And that would be into the blockchain crypto equity side, you know, especially when it comes to our BLOK ETF. This is a risk managed approach to access some of the alpha, some of the returns that are seen in crypto, but do so from a more of a risk adjusted, low volatility standpoint. BLOK's never gonna be the best performing asset in a crypto bull run, it could be one of the better performing assets relative to crypto in a bear run because of the defensiveness. employed by the portfolio managers and the diversification across the use cases. This is a way for you to add block or crypto exposure to your portfolio and I think sleep a little bit better at night when it comes to the volatility that you'd experience. You many investors and frankly, financial advisors can't own one to three percent right now in their portfolios of Bitcoin. like the CFA study has shown, is the optimal allocation. Why is that? Maybe their broker dealer doesn't allow Bitcoin ETFs. Maybe it's a restricted security. know, BLOK is a way to maintain some of that exposure through an equity-based ETF. So we think it's quite complimentary. And for those that are entirely crypto, it might be a great way to diversify some of your pure crypto exposure. to have some of these companies that are real operating companies that are involved in the business, the picks and the axes, so to speak, of the promise of what crypto and blockchain will ultimately be. And make no mistake, sometime in the next few years, we're going to be talking about the breakout in blockchain technology use cases beyond crypto. Right now, it's very easy to just talk about crypto, but when it comes to voting, medical records, mortgages, loans, issuance of securities, trading of securities, even how funds operate, investment funds. The ability for blockchain to make all of those transactions more seamless, more efficient, less costly, more transparent is going to win out. It's just a matter of time. We're seeing the tokenization of real world assets. potentially the tokenization of financial funds, loans, private assets coming very quickly. And those are great, compelling use cases for blockchain that are different than crypto. And I think are really going to expand and blow people's minds who think blockchain is really just about crypto. These are the early internet investors that only think the internet is for email and websites, and they don't see that people will shop, people will advertise, people will stream video. online and that's the long term promise of the internet technology landscape and we're going to see those types of unbelievable applications arrive on the blockchain that's going to not minimize crypto but show that crypto really is just one use case when it comes to blockchain technology and our ETF Block BLOK will be around for that. Fantastic. Yeah, really interesting insight to end on and possibly the topic, i.e. the future applications of blockchain technology beyond just crypto, a future subject for another interview perhaps. I think we can end it there. That just leaves me today. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast, Christian. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks Hayden, always a pleasure. Appreciate it and look forward to talking to you another time.