Friday Conversation with Rebecca Penfold, Criminal Defence & Regulatory Barrister

I was delighted to record this episode with Rebecca talking about her experiences of working throughout the pandemic, how she feels more isolated now than in lockdown, and the challenges facing the criminal Bar at the moment.

After meeting Rebecca at my Manchester launch of The Authentic Lawyer book, we also discussed Authenticity in the Law and how she believes this has impacted her own work, plus how she takes care of her mental health and wellbeing, especially in challenging times.

You can find Rebecca on Twitter @RebeccaLPenfold.

About your host, Hannah Beko

Podcast host Hannah Beko is Head of Mission at Legal Studio Solicitors, a self-employed lawyer coach, corporate trainer for the legal profession, and author of Amazon best-selling book The Authentic Lawyer. 

Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast which you can find here https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/build-your-legal-business/id1569422462

If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession https://bit.ly/fblawyers

Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin here https://linkedin.com/in/hannahbeko/ or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.

Join Hannah for upcoming online and in person events by following the Eventbrite page here https://lnkd.in/dH-DJQT

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of Friday Conversations. Today I'm really excited, I've really been looking forward to recording this episode because I'm being joined by Rebecca Penfold who is a barrister at St John's Chambers in Manchester. Now Rebecca and I don't know each other very well at all. Rebecca was kind enough to come along to my book launch event in Manchester and that was the first time we met and since then she's also been kind enough to listen to my podcast episodes and as such Rebecca to me and said she'd been listening to the podcast episodes and I said well come on come on and join us so I'm really pleased to be joined by Rebecca and I don't know where the conversation is going to go today because obviously we are now depending on when you're listening to this episode it's now September 2022 so we are what two and a bit years post the start of lockdown and the pandemic so we're out of it you know COVID's over or is it etc but To me, the whole idea of this series was about how our lives and how our profession has coped with the pandemic, with lockdown, and how it might be changed and how it might come out the other side. And I think Rebecca's got some thoughts on this as well. And also, she might have something to say about this idea of authenticity. She came along to the book launch. I think she enjoyed what we talked about and what she heard. So she might have some thoughts on that as well. But first of all, Rebecca, do come and introduce yourself. Tell everybody a little bit more about you and what you do. Well, firstly, thank you, Hannah, for having me on the podcast. I am a serial podcaster and I just love to listen to podcasts every single day. So, yes, I am a barrister at St. John's Buildings in Manchester, focusing on criminal defence and regulatory. And I hold a door tenancy in my London set, which is Drystone Chambers. Fantastic. Now, I know just before we hit record, you were sort of talking about episodes of the podcast that you've been listening to and how it was about the pandemic. But now, obviously, we've sort of come out the other side. But you said something interesting. And I said, hold that thought. Let's hit record. Because you said about how it has and hasn't changed for you. So tell us a bit more about that. So my lockdown experience was probably a bit different to other criminal barristers, simply because in February, I think February the 4th, 2020, I moved chambers. So I moved from London chambers to my Manchester set and also moved house, or tried to. Little did I know that eight weeks later, we would go into the lockdown. So I had two months in Manchester and I was... sort of trying to pick up work, develop a practice. And at the time I was actually junior counsel to the Grenfell Inquiry. So I was pretty focused on that in terms of work, which kept me out of court quite a bit. Then the pandemic hit and I was between flats in London and Manchester. So I went back down to London for what I thought was going to be three weeks because I think Boris Johnson's first announcement was three weeks. And I naively thought, It's fine, three weeks. So I left the washing up in the sink, left food in the fridge. Easter, I drove to Manchester and I cleared out the flat and I did the washing up. And then I realised, oh, we're in it for the long haul. And I was based in London, but we did finally manage to exchange and buy the house in the July. And then I really did move to Manchester and focus myself. So I was... by circumstance, I was kind of forced to do only certain work whilst in London. But we did do court work. I did CVPs, which is the virtual hearings, and I did in-person in London. Being a criminal practitioner, most of our work sort of stopped immediately. I wasn't in a jury trial at the time, but the work stopped pretty immediately, but it did get back up and running. And I've been trying to, I was listening to so, so interesting, listening to other people talk about setting up their home office, getting, you know, good chairs, setting up two screens. And even for now that I don't have a comfy chair, I don't have two screens. I just, I just, it doesn't, you know our criminal practice is very much in person in court um and i am trying to think about when i really went back to court properly full time and it would have been pretty soon after i'd moved house because that's just then i was properly based in manchester um so we very much were in court all day every day and in Manchester obviously we had the various different tiers and it seemed as though Manchester was always in a higher tier than anywhere else um but I really quite enjoyed that time because we still had our friends and colleagues in the roving rooms and we could still see people so actually I was really fortunate compared to lots of other people who had the loneliness and working from home can have its um difficulties um so actually I'm And I look back now and moving chambers at the time that I did, I think was actually a very good move in hindsight. Wow. But what you were suggesting is that actually you're finding now in this period as more like lockdown for you. Tell us a bit more about that. So basically, September 2022 now, criminal barristers who defend and are paid by legal aid are refusing to attend court. refusing to accept new instructions and refusing to cover other people's work. From April this year, we were refusing certain elements. So we were refusing to accept other people's returns and cover for people. And then that slowly built up to no new briefs to then all out walk out. So at the moment, I'm only ever going to court if it's private or if there's a vulnerability that means that I can break the strike. I don't like the word strike. It's not a strike at all because I'm all day every day at my desk working, realizing how many hours I put in for free. So at the moment I do feel this is what it must have been like in lockdown. We're not going to court. We're just sat at our desks working. But I think the most stressful time, I mean, I'm in my ninth year of practice now and the most stressful time of my career ever was I think about April, May time this year when we started doing the no returns because that meant that no one could cover my work and being a sole defence practitioner, I had no room for movement. I couldn't get rid of any cases. So I started not going to court on cases that I couldn't get to. I was part head in a long trial elsewhere. So I couldn't go to court in Manchester if I was in Sheffield, for example. And so I started letting down clients and the stress and the workload was, it was the worst I've ever been in. So yeah. Tell us, I wasn't necessarily going in this direction, but this is where we are. For those who might be listening to the podcast who don't know very much about what's going on for you all. And actually you said there, you said strike, but no, I'm not going to call it a strike. You know, just in, you know, it doesn't need to be super long, but just to sum it up for people who don't know much about it, what is going on? So in short, we get paid legal aid fees. There was a review conducted a while ago by Sir Christopher Bellamy, which said legal aid fees are too low and there needs to be an injection of cash pronto. That's the very short point of it. And the government haven't acted upon it. So despite commissioning a review, they've not done anything. And we have said, well, enough is enough. And I think by saying enough is enough, we actually now realise how much work we are putting in I always knew I worked silly hours, and that sort of links back to one of your, I listened to one of your guests, a mental health lawyer, and he was talking about work-life balance and putting in boundaries. We have no boundaries, but I actually think, and this might be a really negative thing to say, I think it actually works very well for our profession to not have appropriate boundaries, because it means that I can call anyone at any time of day for the help that I need. And so, you know, you've got to balance out. So basically the Sir Christopher Bellamy review hasn't been followed through and we've said, well, enough is enough. And I think the rates of attrition are really high. I think it was 300 barristers have left in the last year and it's about 25% over the last five years. The data is alarming. The stats are awful and we've got to do something about it. And so by not going to court, we're making a stand. my goodness it's being um you know there are lots of different branches to the profession as you and i were just talking about and you know we sort of put them all under the umbrella and i'm guilty of this the umbrella of the legal profession and that it's almost sort of the same and it's not the experience as you say that the barristers are having versus solicitors and and as i said earlier you know even solicitors the difference between high street practices with a bit of legal aid to you know the big corporate firms we might have a one banner, one name, but the experience of people in it is very, very different. Yeah, and the same can be said even in, so in chambers, I think SJB are probably one of the biggest in the country, if not the biggest at any given point. And so we have huge different practice areas. We've got family, we've got civil, we've got crime, but even within the crime team, we have people who only defend like me. We've got people who do both. We've got people who only prosecute. Now the people who only prosecute are having a very different time because they're going to court every day. And the people who then do a bit of regulatory or solely do private crime, also having a very different time. And so you have, I've built the best friendships and relationships in chambers. And that's probably because of lockdown, because of all the quizzes we used to do and getting together on Zoom. Ironically, I met more people in lockdown than I did the two months prior to lockdown, but... There we go. So actually that's one of the reasons I say actually my lockdown experience was quite positive. So I think even in chambers I see people every day who are you know really good friends but completely different practice areas and so the people who are probably more similar to me in terms of my day-to-day are more likely to be criminal solicitors, criminal defence solicitors, than a civil barrister or a family barrister or even a prosecutor. Yeah. Yeah. How are you finding, or are you finding, there is support for what's going on? Support for the bar action or support? Okay, so there is... So I'm a member of the Criminal Bar Association who have sort of... started this action and I sit on a committee so perhaps I'm a bit biased but the CBA I think this year particularly have been really quite incredible and we've got huge support there we have weekly national meetings for everybody then we've got weekly under sevens meetings as well as various hardship funds and we have started doing demonstrations outside court and that's being arranged by people in other chambers and so I'm getting to interact with you know, top quality silks and people who really fundamentally believe in the same things that I believe in. And so the support is huge. And of course, in chambers, there's support. The clerks, I don't know how they've done it, but the last six months must have been horrendous trying to clerk us all when they can't move our diaries around like they would ordinarily. And they've just dealt with it. Absolutely fine. So hats off to them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I hope that that little piece has maybe educated some people in our profession who didn't know about what was going on. Definitely. Now, you said about the word authentic. I mean, that's how we met. You saw the event and came along and things. And I know you've got some thoughts on it. So you start the conversation. What are your thoughts around this idea of authenticity?

UNKNOWN: 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:51

I always, I remember when I came to your event, I asked a question, I think it was along the lines of, we are all here and we all have the insight into why being authentic is important and what it means. And I think I said something like, how do we make the people that we need to listen, listen? And I feel like I have to be quite careful what I say here, but especially in my profession, there tends to be a certain, person who's associated with being a criminal barrister. And that certain person might not necessarily have the level of insight into this concept of authenticity that I would, and others might welcome. And I do see in my colleagues who tend to be younger, probably those below 40, and perhaps also female colleagues, able to have the insight and work a bit more authentically than other people. And I don't know why that is. And it could be completely wrong. It could just be my experience. But I think being authentic is, I hope I'm authentic. And I think that's how I've managed to develop the practice that I've managed. I have really good relationships with my instructing solicitors. And I think it's because there is a level of trust that you can only develop if you are your authentic, true self. And as a barrister, you have to deliver bad news a lot, especially when you have a client who's clearly in some difficulties. And in order to relay that information to the client and undoubtedly to their support network who come to court, they have to trust you. to develop that level of trust when there's a lot of mistrust in the state, in the police and the way they've been handled really requires a lot. And I think I manage that as best I can by being as true to myself as possible and being as authentic as possible. And I think sometimes it's quite easy to lose sight of the fact that this person has perhaps been in a cell for hours on end they haven't had the right treatment for whatever reason um and they feel a bit disillusioned and if they see someone who comes along and i mean for example i often don't have my wig and gown on when i'm in a conference with a client because they need to see i'm a human i'm a real person and it's intended its whole purpose the wig and the gown is to set you apart isn't it yeah um and i see And I have seen throughout my whole career, one of the benefits of being a barrister is you as a pupil, you shadow people for six months. And I have seen the way other people approach things and they sort of swan in, it's one case after another, they give the advice and they leave. And I just don't think, that's not how I would ever approach a client or a case because that client is a person who is in a very vulnerable position and in a moment of need. And however poorly paid I am, this job is a huge privilege and I don't ever want to lose sight of that. And so I think by being the most authentic you can be, I hope I gain the client's trust and then they feed back to solicitors and you create a much better working relationship. And it means when you have to make difficult decisions, your client is on board and ultimately at the end, thanks you. Yes. Wow. Isn't that a powerful thing? As you say, they're going through a difficult time. They don't want to have to rely on you or use you or speak to you. They don't want to be in that situation. And yet they end up thanking you at the end. There's so much in there that I love. And I want to just pick up on one of the first things you said quite early in that piece was that you think that being more authentic is what's helped you build the business, the practice that you have, which is brilliant. You know, it's not that we're doing this just you know, just for ourselves, but it has a financial and a business and that sort of thing, a practice benefit as well, which is one of the big things for me. But it isn't, I do understand what you're saying about the difference between generations, if you like, in the profession. And we see it very much on the solicitors side as well. And I mean, this is just my opinion, but my thoughts on it are that, yeah, there was a way that law used to be done. And it was, as you say, that swanning in, the pinstripe suit, maybe they were gowned and wigged as well. And it was very much, I'm the expert here. I'm going to tell you what's happening here. And they needed them, they relied on them, and they just had to deal with it. You know, there was no other option for clients. It was, if I need this help, I've just got to put up with this person who's, you know, not necessarily polite and certainly not personable and I can't get to know them. And I think it's the same when I look back, you know, my 20 years in law, the partners and the people that I used to work with in early doors, it was very similar. It was, you know, I'm the authority here. You're going to listen to what I say, client. And they didn't have tons of choice or it was just the way that it happened. They had that respect for that person because they held that high position and therefore they used them. But I think things have changed and are certainly changing with clients and what they want. They don't want just that big authoritative figure that just tells them what to do, that they have no relationship with they don't know if they can trust them they just didn't have a choice before I think things are changing clients are changing they want something different I do think some clients need what I would say tough love and need that firmer approach but of course your solicitor will tell you beforehand and you can tend you can tell, you look at the papers and you say, okay, they know the justice system better than I do. And then you've got clients who, and this is sort of really where I'm trying to focus on a bit more at the moment, the really vulnerable female clients and those who are really at a make or break and I don't want to oversell our position as lawyers, but you can have such a huge impact on their life and their life is at a crossroads at that point. And it's making sure that they take the right turn because ultimately you don't ever want to see that person again. You want to make sure that they've stayed away and changed themselves. Yes, you do. And, you know, it's not our job, in a sense to, you know, be their mental health guardians or anything like that. I know that. But yet somehow we are and then we fall into that. I was just talking to some solicitors yesterday who they have similar concerns. clients who could have been um you know from domestic their family lawyers so they deal with the separation and the custody and they could have come from domestic violence type situations and one of them made a really interesting point that even the court system and some of the barristers that they deal with can actually be like re-trauma for these people because they're then still being told what to do you know they may have come from coercive control for example and they're still being told what to do having their decisions almost made for them not being able to say how they feel and things like that so that I think that's what you're almost getting out there that it can almost make things worse for them yeah true yeah Trauma is a real issue in the criminal justice system. And I don't think it's something that's dealt with properly. And trauma amongst everybody in the system. So the police officers who have to go through the phone and see the awful images they see. The prosecutors who have to deal with a complainant who is completely at her absolute wits end with the system and frail and just can't cope with it anymore. And then the defence side, barristers and solicitors. such a high caseload that and a lot of your podcast has been talking about um the mental health well-being and how we deal with our day-to-day life and how we try and keep it even though we're working from home um a lot of us how we then try and separate well i i don't think criminal brass does have a separation um and it's just the nature of the beast in that it's all very last minute overnight and so we have to set up our own ways of dealing with things um Lots of people do open water swimming, lots of people go to the gym, lots of people have their own ways. And I think we've definitely improved post lockdown because of pre lockdown, it was very much alcohol driven. We would all just go to the pub after call and decompress and then go home having had a few. Now, because we were prohibited from doing that, I think we've got different methods, which is a positive. But there is so much trauma in our job and it is not dealt with and there is no room for it to be dealt with there's no funding for it there's no recognition of it and although mental health has um really been taken far more seriously since lockdown um we are just expected especially at the criminal bar the expectations that i've put put on us and during covid the i mean truly that the lack of protection we really were given at times of difficult time. It's just not good enough, but I don't know how that will ever change. Well, interestingly, I've actually just been hired by my first barrister's chambers to come and do some work with them on the stress, the well-being, etc. So, yes, because historically, you know, slightly different to, say, law firms where law firms might bring somebody like me in. Obviously, you're all self-employed, so it's not the same in terms of we're going to provide this training for you. But they've actually just managed to get enough of the barristers to say, yes, we want to do this to make it work. So who knows? Because as soon as one chambers does it, more will. And just because we're self-employed, I mean, chambers still owe us a duty of care. We owe each other a duty of care. And so I think that's a really positive step. So hopefully we can take that up. Yeah, absolutely. So interesting point you just made there, you know, that you've all sort of, you have to have your coping mechanisms and your ways to protect your mental health. And it used to be alcohol very much, not a mental health protection, but ways of trying to cope with the stress. What are yours? What are yours now? Well, I will completely accept that I would fall into that bracket prior to lockdown, hands up. And do you know what? There are still times now, of course. I have... So I've always been a gym goer. So I try, I... Personal training and gym are quite a thing for me. Podcasts, I'm obsessed with. I mean, I've just been listening to one about a Manchester gangster whilst doing some leg presses in the gym, which is a bit of a busman's holiday, but it's very interesting for me. Brilliant. And I found the art of Qigong, which is a form of inner martial art like Tai Chi. Yeah. I kind of describe it to people a bit like Tai Chi cum yoga. I'm no yoga bunny and Qigong is all stood up. But it's great. And I walk out so zen because we end with about five minutes at the end of meditation. I love the sound of this. I bought one of my friends along who's also a criminal solicitor. And she was so zen after it. It's incredible. I do it every Wednesday evening. And it's been life changing, I have to say. Do you know, I absolutely love this. And my brain is whirring already thinking, you should find some barristers who don't do anything like that. Get them to measure their stress levels now. Get them to do that every week for like six weeks and then measure their stress levels again. It would be amazing to do that. I should be stressed now. I'm not working and therefore I'm not earning money and I'm not developing my practice. But I'm not. And I do put it down to... all of this stuff I'm doing away from the desk. It has to be that because otherwise I should be a nervous wreck. I'm not quite. It's that, you know, I'm a big fan of meditation. Everybody knows that. I talk about it all the time. It was life-changing for me. It was that stress, chronic stress to actually, I love everything I do now. the first thing was meditation so it sounds you know you've you found this which is yeah a bit of physical exercise but that mindful element to it as well which is breathing and breath work and and i know there's so many people who would especially at the criminal bar who'd roll their eyes um and say oh that's far too fluffy no let's go for a beer um well fine you do you Do whatever works for you and I'll do me. Yeah. But you see, this is why I suggested this trial, clinical trial, because lawyers buy into evidence. I did. It's when I saw the evidence about meditation and things like gratitude and how it physically improves the health of your heart. I was like, really? You know, if it can do that, I've got a spare five minutes for that. You know, so I think you can... I mean, we did... Yeah, I agree. We did just have a meeting, actually. During our strike action, the CBA had been putting on all these different training sessions. And one of them was on trauma and one was sort of dealing with... how we deal with this action and moving forward. And one of the silks who was brilliant said about positive affirmations and literally going into them, talking to yourself in front of the mirror, positive affirmations. Now I've always believed in that. I did an empowerment programme when I first moved to Manchester with a group of amazing women. It was fantastic. But then I had a court of appeal hearing about a fortnight ago and I got to court and it suddenly sort of hit home that this would be make or break for this climb it was custody or non-custody and so I stood in front of the mirror and I literally did positive affirmations in the roving room and then you know the appeal was successful so yay but actually just looking at yourself and saying out loud those words then I just walked out and just walked to court and said right there we go done it and I've got to do it now wow Wow. It's, yeah, I just love that. Absolutely love that. And the more we can talk about this in our profession and get more people thinking like this, they can be cynical. I was cynical. It's fine. Just try it. You'll see. You don't need to believe in it. for it to work you just need to do it oh well maybe some people listening to this Rebecca might have heard what you've said and think do you know what it's worth five minutes of my time that that is worth giving it a go Oh, wow. So how we used to end this podcast, as you say, we're moving into a different phase now post lockdown, but we used to end it by saying, you know, what have you learned through the whole pandemic lockdown experience, the last two and a half years, really? What have you learned about yourself, about our profession? What would you say to that? Well, so I've learned that I just can't be on my own. I'm one of those people that needs to have someone, something around me. And I normally push back against anything online. I don't like know the zoom meetings or anything like that but if it's an opportunity to see other people and talk to other people then i'm there um and so we locked down in chambers we had um a juniors quiz and that's how i met everyone and i've now got you know friends for life from it so that's great but yeah that's what i realized i needed to be with people and outside um so i know if i can go for a walk with a friend along the river or in a park even if I've had an awful week or very stressed or got an awful week coming up even if it's just an hour that makes me happier so I've learned that about myself yeah isn't that amazing and as you say you'll take that forward and you'll always have that you'll always know that now yeah oh it's been so brilliant to chat to you Rebecca I know we could go on for hours and hours and talk about more more things but um thank you so much for coming to join us I hope you'll carry on listening to and enjoying the podcast And yeah, great to see you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us for today's episode. If you'd like to come along and be a guest on the podcast, please do get in touch. It's hannah at authenticallyspeaking.co.uk or you can find me on the website, authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.