Interview with Claire Payne, Property Litigation Lawyer, Tribunal Judge and Business Coach talking about working with Wolves

The Law in Lockdown and Beyond Podcast with Hannah Beko, Lawyer, Author, Speaker, Coach & Trainer

In this episode, we talk to Claire about her portfolio career, from leading a property litigation team inside an international law firm to becoming a tribunal judge, founding a business consultancy, being a non-executive director, and now working with wolves!

Having followed Claire's journey over the past few years, it was fantastic to hear more about how meeting the wolves inspired her to adapt her mini MBA course to include retreats in the wild with these great creatures.  We hear about how wolves operate effectively as a pack, shifting leaders depending on the needs of the group, regulating each other and welcoming new members.  What can our leaders and teams learn from their unique behaviour?

Legal teams and lawyers often get caught up in hierarchy and titles, how could we adapt our team behaviour to support everyone to play to their unique strengths?

You can find out more about Claire's work with the wolves here https://orthelian.com/

About your host, Hannah Beko

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a lawyer, author, coach and corporate trainer and speaker focusing on leadership skills and mental health and wellbeing.

Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast, which you can find here: https://authenticallyspeaking.co.uk/p..., and runs The Legal Business Incubator membership for lawyers who want to improve their business development skills in an authentic way!

If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession https://bit.ly/fblawyers

Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin here   / hannahbeko  or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk for blogs and resources to support legal professionals.

You can also find Hannah's bestselling book, "The Authentic Lawyer, How to Create More Success in Your Practice and More Balance in Your Life" on Amazon and Kindle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to the Law in Lockdown and Beyond. Now I'm always really excited about recording these but this is a really special one today because Claire and I have known each other for a few years now I think. We've worked together in a legal capacity as a property lawyer. I often needed property litigation support and there she was. We've also both got a passion for leadership training and coaching and that's something we're going to hopefully talk a little bit about today. So it's fantastic to welcome Claire Payne to join us and her dogs as well and Claire I'm going to let you tell everybody a little bit about all the various hats you wear so go ahead in case I miss any.

SPEAKER_00: 0:45

I've got a portfolio career these days. I started off back in private practice, but I left in 2016. And so now I sit as a judge in the tribunal. I'm a consultant partner in an international law firm where obviously I run the team of specialist property litigators. I'm also the chair of a housing association and I do some other non-exec work. I act as a business coach and a mentor. And I've also run a business consultancy where I collaborate with others. And I've started running some really quite wonderful retreats with wolves. And yeah, that's real wolves.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26

I know. And it's the real wolves we really want to talk about today after we've got through the sort of legal career bit. So, I mentioned to you, Claire, when we were talking about this podcast, that it started in lockdown and it now it's a series of interviews with really interesting lawyers and where they've pivoted or added to their career with some really interesting things, which you have. But just to sort of stick to our roots a little bit and to talk about lockdown pandemic and coming out of that. How how how did you find it, I suppose, briefly? And what's changed for you as a lawyer coming out? post pandemic.

SPEAKER_00: 2:05

Well, I think I'd started my shift before the pandemic because I'd sort of got to my point of burning out in 2016 and was at the point of anything but this, which I think is probably back when I started working with you. So I'd already moved into more of a consultancy role with some different strings to my bow and doing some different work around the legal practice before the pandemic. And I think for me, the pandemic actually was a revelation because I'd been starting to work more online starting to be more flexible and dynamic in the way that I was delivering certainly my legal work and work dynamically meant that I could start researching things around leadership and I could start changing the way that I was delivering some of my legal practice and really it's been great because that's stuck since the pandemic's finished and that shift as well in what people are expecting and the way that people are working with each other has really got some traction And so I think it's opened up a whole new world for us, particularly, you know, in corporate and commercial work.

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

Yeah, yeah, no, it really has. And I think that's one of the positives to come out of a difficult time. Definitely. And we'll still see. We're still seeing the shifts and I think we'll still see them. Definitely. And it's really interesting for me having sort of followed you on that journey, because as you say, when we did some work together, you were a very busy property litigator, growing your team, you know, more work than you knew what to do with. And yet you did always have this passion for the leadership, the coaching. But I know it had to go on the back burner for a while because your property litigation business was so busy. So watching you and this work with the Wolves, which I know you're going to talk more about in a minute, For me, it seemed like you found your thing, the thing that was going to pull you out of that safety net, if you like, of legal work. And I say that because that's where I've been as well. And to really spend more of your time and energy and pivot more of your work into the leadership bit. So what is it about those wolves? What was it about getting in there with them that said, right, that's it. Now it's time.

SPEAKER_00: 4:23

So I think the thing was, is back in 2016, when I stepped out and started this journey, I was in very much in anything but that mindset. I just got to the point where it was not that. And I do remember having a conversation with you where you said, yes, but what is it? Where are we going with this then? What's the towards motivation here? And I actually had no clue what I wanted. I just knew I couldn't carry on the way I was. So I went on this journey where... I tried a lot of different things. You know, I tried traditional training. I tried training to make me more efficient. I tried training to get, you know, I got executive coaching in there. I did leadership programs. And then over lockdown, I went out there and I did some work with someone called Jen Lamarinelle about getting out into the wild and reconnecting with your wild roots. And that started pushing those boundaries out. And through Jen, I actually saw her doing some of her own training, a picture of her with a wolf on Facebook. And I went, how on earth did you manage to go and sit that close to a wolf and get that picture? It was amazing. And she was kind enough to give me the contact details of the Wolf and Dog Development Center. So this was right back at the beginning of lockdown. And one of the bits where we came out of restrictions and I pestered and pestered until I could come down and meet these wolves. And it was absolutely one of the most phenomenal moments of my life. You know, you have those key moments in your life, which are the big things when things drop, and it really was one of them. So that feeling that I was chasing all that time, that different way of being, just from that encounter and being seen in the way that the wolves see you and feeling the way they work together and feeling the way they communicate, it was like a light bulb went off and it was, it was, that's it. That is absolutely it. That's what we're missing.

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

Do you know, I've literally just got like goosebumps cold. I was like, it's just, oh, it's just, it's been, I know I've sort of watched it from the sidelines on your Facebook updates and everything. And just, it's been so amazing to watch. It's been amazing to see you find this and, and find this, do you know what? This is the key, the push, the whatever it is for me to do more of this work. So you started talking about some of the reasons why the wolves are so special there. And I know you've talked to me about this before. And there's so much, and I know we won't get it all in today, but you were talking to me a few weeks ago about the way the wolves work together and how you then link that within teams and leadership. So tell us a little bit about the really special way that the wolves communicate and work together as a team.

SPEAKER_00: 7:15

So a lot of people, when they think about wolves, think about this myth, which is the alpha myth. you know, the alpha male or the alpha pair that try and dominate everybody else and run everything. Actually, when you get to know wolves, it couldn't be further from the truth. So the research that was done where they came up with that theory was done on captive wolves, where they'd taken wolves from lots of different families and ran them together in a very small cage with limited resources. So it's a bit like putting humans into a war zone and then going, well, that's the way that humans would naturally act, which is clearly never going to be the case. So luckily I've had the opportunity to work with Sean Ellis and he's actually spent years out in the world living as part of a wolf pack. And now he obviously has the packs down in Cornwall that I work with. And what he discovered was the wolves work entirely in a collaborative way and they work playing on the strengths of each of the pack members. So the pack or family is made up of individuals who have different social characters and And that character has certain things that are essentially their superpowers. And depending on what the family is doing, they'll look to that member of the family to take the lead on it. Now, within that, they do have members of the family are particularly good at long term strategy. And that's usually the little female at the back. so the smallest female, and she's usually the one that's sitting there thinking, what children are we going to need to bring through so we've got succession planning? And she can actually dictate what the characters of those puppies are going to be using chemicals and using the way that they adjust their neurology. She'll be thinking about where are they going to get their next food from, very plugged into the environment. We can't take too much from there because we need that to thrive for next year. So she's looking at all of these things around them. She's then got another male counterpart who's looking at the long-term safety and security of the family. So you've got your strategic, you've then got your protectors, you've then got people who are there to look at risk management, you've got other members of the family that are there to see how everybody in the family is doing. So they're allowed to have bad days. They have one member of the family whose role is like a tester and they will come around and see how everyone's doing on a given day and they'll nudge them and they'll see how reactive they are. And if they're having a bad day, there's no judgment. There's no, we're going to ostracize you from the group. What they do is they adjust resources and their plans. So they've got the support and they've got a very clear strategy strategy about what they're doing. And they've all got their own decision-making capability, but they come together with a common goal. And they're very clear on this is what we are gonna hunt today. This is the resource we're looking for today. This is the way in which we're gonna prepare this area because this is how we want our puppies to be brought up. And this is how we want to instill our values into them and our way of regulating each other into them. So everything is done with a lot of thought and with a really clear plan of how best to use the resources they've got. And within those resources are obviously their individual strengths and talents.

SPEAKER_01: 10:34

Yeah, that was one of the first things you said that I loved from a leadership and team development perspective is that there's not just one leader or boss or manager at the front. There is because there is in our teams anyway with people. But this idea that you look at the strengths of each person and in relation to this project or this project, day or this issue who is the person that should lead on this because they have the strengths so it I thought that was that was really fascinating and then as you said the way that they um look after each other and help to regulate each other and there's no oh you know you're not feeling strong today so you're ostracized it's like okay you're not feeling strong today how do we adjust how do we adapt

SPEAKER_00: 11:21

so

SPEAKER_01: 11:21

that you know we get done what we need to get done and I think you told me a story I think it was about one of your clients who went there who's struggling with something and something in their interaction with the wolves helped them to to unlock that or to understand that or it might have been about yourself i can't remember because you said the wolves have this way of reading people

SPEAKER_00: 11:42

so so the way that the wolves communicate um and it is something that we as humans do because i think we see ourselves as very other than the wolf but actually If you look back at the long string of evolution, we evolved side by side as pack animals with the wolves until actually very recent history. So when they're communicating with each other, they obviously use the verbal and the physical communication, which we're very familiar with. They also use sense, but they very much use neurology. So we're only just starting scientifically to dip our toes into looking at things like mirror neurons and neurological fields and how we impact each other. But this is something that they do very naturally. They regulate themselves and then they co-regulate as a group. And I think one of the things that, I mean, one client that calls to mind, there's been so many breakthroughs, both in work, but also in personal lives, which were unexpected and wonderful. But thinking about a very practical one, I had somebody who was really struggling with their board members. So a CEO trying to work with their board members, and there was a lot of conflict in that room. And she was really, really struggling to say, well, how do I get them in a room to have a civil conversation to start appreciating each other? And what she did was twofold. So one of the things she did was she learned about her own neurology. And we've got this amazing ability when you tap into it to use those mirror neurons and to set the energy in a room. So some people will talk about this as containers. Other people have used this in lots of different ways. I mean, I think I first came across it in an exercise class when there was this older lady who was in her 60s. Every time we got a really difficult exercise, your heart would sink. You'd be like, can't do another like 20 burpees. Oh, my God. And she would go, what happened? And just move herself. And essentially, now I know what she was doing. We were all in the fear system going, I don't know if I can do this. She was in the play system going, do you know what? We've got this. And the energy changed. And it was contagious because it got everybody else in the room doing the same thing. So there are things you can do. I'm not necessarily saying go into the boardroom and start shouting woohoo.

UNKNOWN: 14:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:09

you can change that in the room. And if you're doing it very consciously, you can co-regulate that room. So that was the first thing she did. And then what she did is she started talking about social characters. And each of the people in that room, I mean, it's one of those things, as humans, we actually mirror the social characters of the wolves because we've evolved alongside them. It's the same way that our groupings would have worked going back to our sort of Neolithic days. And people can resonate usually very strongly with one of those social characters And the way in which they then bring things to the group and the way in which they need information and the way in which they need to communicate will very much vary depending on that social character. So she got them talking about their social characters and what they needed from the group and what they needed from each other. And they got this really involved conversation going with nobody sniping at each other and nobody... trying to get one up they were all just trying to bring themselves to the so well I think yes I do think about it like that and then what she did was she dropped in the conversation that they needed to have about the strategy for the next year and where the risks were that they were going to be really struggling with. And because she dropped that into the middle of that already collaborative conversation where everybody got their neurology and they were in the side of their emotional systems, which is play and seeker and interested, the conversation was really civil and really productive. And it wasn't something that took her all day to do. She did this in the course of a normal board meeting. just as I've been looking at this really interesting thing I've been learning about. And so you can bring it in in so many different ways into your work.

SPEAKER_01: 15:53

No, I love that. And I know when you were talking about it with me the other week, I think I said to you, it's something that... I've been thinking about the terms of the energy of a room or even on a Zoom meeting, you can bring it. It's something that I think I've been doing by accident for a few years because people will say to me, how on earth do you get lawyers to talk about mental health and wellbeing? How on earth do you get them to talk about when they've nearly had a breakdown or had a breakdown or burnt out or whatever? I'm like, well, I just sort of do. But I think there is more to it than that. I think it is the container that I consciously try to to create of the safety and the honesty and then they do it. So I was really interested in that and that there is science around it and there is sort of, it can maybe be more intentional than I'm doing accidentally. So that is something for me to think about and to learn more about. But you've just reminded me, you spoke to me about your, you talked about these different social positions and I think you said you had an assumption going into your work with the wolves that you were in one position and one of the wolves sort of physically nudged you out of, and said, no, you're not. Can you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00: 17:01

And I think this was one of those things. I mean, I'd gone into an area of law which is adversarial, where I stand up in front of my client and I fight their corner for them. And I was sitting there going, I've got to be a protector. You know, protector has to be what I am. And the wolves didn't respond to me as a protector at all. And in fact, Sean Ellis said to me quite early on in my journey with with learning from him, who are you trying to kid? Because because it's not it's not me at all. And actually, what happens is we adjust to fit. our environment. I mean, humans are the only animal on the planet that creates a system which is designed to stop us from thriving. Every other animal will look to try and find an environment that it's got its best chance of living the best life it can and success. Whereas we put ourselves, we force ourselves into boxes. We don't fit in. We put stress on ourselves. We make everything as difficult as possible. We don't have to, but we do. Um, and, um, And so as I sort of started exploring this, I realised that the way they interacted with me, they can see right through it. When people meet them, they say, it's like they look straight into my soul. Now, I don't know if you believe that or not on a spiritual level, but certainly they look into you because they can tell what's going on with your chemical systems. They can tell what's going on with your neurology. They can tell by your, they are reading the micro bits of your brain. body language and the sounds in your voice, even if they don't know the language. So they are picking up from you a significant amount of information. And it is like they look into you and they do not like being around anything that isn't authentic. They like everything in their environment and meeting with them to be neurologically balanced, to be in the right bit of the emotional system with them and to be authentic. And if you're not authentic, they will nudge you in a direction to say, You might feel better if you do this. And actually it turned out that when I realized that what I am is I'm what I call an enricher character. And so I'm a character that's very much in the moment. I'm very good at bringing the energy to somebody else. I'm very good at engaging people. I'm good at making things fun. And when I embrace that side of my character, it was like, everything just became so much easier. Now, that's not to say that when I need to, I can't be the protector or when I need to, I can't do the strategy. But when I'm in flow and I'm in my own character, that's when the magic really happens with whatever I'm working on. So it just makes such a big difference.

SPEAKER_01: 20:00

For me, that's the piece. You know, I was saying earlier about how We talked for a while about what you wanted to be doing, but you couldn't because of these various reasons of business ownership. I look after people. I've got all these responsibilities. What will happen to everyone, et cetera, et cetera. There were all these reasons why you couldn't. couldn't move towards more of the work that you wanted to do. And it, for me, it was like, when you, when you explained that, it was like, that was the piece. It was discovering that actually I can do protector, you know, I can do building a team, looking after a team. In fact, I can do it damn well. But it's not my happy place. It's not my easy place. It's not something that just happens magically. I have to force it a bit,

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

you

SPEAKER_01: 20:46

know, and then to find this and to find that there's no forcing with this. This is the magic.

SPEAKER_00: 20:53

And I think the thing is, when you get this epiphany and you look back, There are clues to it all the way along. So if you look at the feedback that I had from my legal clients all the way through, and I mean, I climbed the ladder very quickly to partnership. And I'm one of the younger members of the judiciary as well. And I looked at it and the feedback and the testimonials I always had was people enjoyed working with me. They felt comfortable around me. It was fun. They felt like they could engage with me and that I understood what they were saying. And it is that, that is the essence of what my social character's superpower really is. And so it was there, tapping its way through, even though... for all the reasons of cultural paradigms and telling you what a litigation lawyer should look like and everything else, I was stood there going, no, I need to be a protector. It was still there. And that was the bit that people had obviously gone, oh, I like that bit. And that's why I want to work with you.

SPEAKER_01: 21:54

Oh, it's so powerful. And you know, I've said to you, at some point, I'm definitely coming to meet these wolves myself, just for that sort of understanding of You know, I talk a lot about authenticity. I wrote the book, et cetera. But it doesn't mean there's not more for me to learn. And that idea of, yeah, who am I? Who am I trying to be? Who am I still kidding myself about? And who, you know, it's just, it's fascinating for me. And I'm sure for lots of people listening to this, you know, you are, as you said, you know, been in law before. a good chunk of your career um you know you're a judge and yet you go and play with the wolves you know and i can play literally because play is part of your as you say your your character and your social character so um i know we've really only just sort of started to touch on some of this but what i guess what where would people if people are listening to to this and thinking wow this is this is amazing you know whether I want to go and meet the wolves or whether I want to learn more about this uh neurology or running a team or whatever where do where would you say people go from here what could they do

SPEAKER_00: 23:11

so I mean the best thing to do is to reach out and get in touch with me because the thing about this work is it is so it's diverse in the way that it can be applied. So for myself, I mean, I've been teaching MBA, many MBAs to directors for a number of years because I grew up my leadership work around my legal career because I became a leader in law very early and then realised that I didn't know anything about leadership. So I went off to night school, you know, Warwick University and various other things to get those qualifications and that understanding. So I've been teaching it in a very, what I would call dry way for a long time. And what I've done is I've integrated the wolf work into that from a business sense. But what I'm also doing is I'm working with individual leaders and groups in collaboration to bring things to their way of working and how they can apply and layer in the wolf work with them as well. And I think the thing that, that bit of magic that you get when you collaborate in with the wolves is some things that I have been talking about and teaching the same clients for literally years in some cases and they've got it and intellectually they have understood and thought this is something i really want to do but could they get it to stick could they get the change to shift no send them in with the wolves put it into context and they feel it and it's once you get that feeling and you get that embodiment you stop being this head on a stick you know with with all this intellectual and you get it into here where you can feel it you suddenly realize that actually this was a lot easier than I thought it was And without having to push it or force it, that's where the change and the magic starts to happen from having that reference experience. And so what we can do is we can look at what is the shift that people are trying to find in their life or trying to find with their group that they're working with or within their team. We craft a day around them with the wolves and we look at facilitating that shift with them. So there's so many different ways that you can use it. And it's absolutely fascinating.

SPEAKER_01: 25:26

It really is. So I think whether it's people who are individual leaders and they perhaps want to come and work with you, or people who have teams, or as you say, boards, all those sorts of things is something that potentially they could work with you on. And I know... Just for my interest as well, we sort of touched on it when we've spoken as well about not just leadership, but about emotional regulation and stress, you know, something I'm always talking about with lawyers. as well even if it's not in a leadership capacity this work with the wolves can really help with unlocking that that stress and anxiety and things

SPEAKER_00: 26:08

like that it really can and there's really three areas where the wolves are particularly helpful in this um the first one is um looking at the way in which we have we have an emotional system seesaw and looking at how they tip the seesaw between the emotional systems so that you're working in the side that is productive and doesn't put stress on yourself and what they actually do is when you were quite right when you said I play with the wolves wolves use play and use their play system to do this elastic stretching and stressing of their resilience within their neurological system so they put pressure on pressure off pressure on pressure off but they do it in a playful way so it's not overstressing their system but what that means is then when you go into a stressful situation you've already got this elasticity in your neurology which makes you a lot more resilient. So it's really clever in the way that they set themselves up so their system bounces back. And you can see it to an extent still in domestic dogs. They'll go through something that really is stressful and worrying for them, and then they just shake it off. And then they carry on as if nothing's happened. And that's a hangover from that elasticity that you get with the wolves. The other thing they do is regulation. They self-regulate and they co-regulate. And that's all, a lot of that has to do with the ventral vagal system. So getting from that closed down state into that open state where you've got that opportunity to connect and to communicate, to be more engaged with your surroundings. But also it takes you out of that cortisol and adrenaline. So into that parasympathetic way of being, which again, takes the stress out of your system. But the third way, which is something that I love getting into more detail, but I'll try and keep it as brief as I can, is the way in which they develop both their puppies and new members of the pack because they do bring members in from outside and they do swap members to keep that diversity because diversity in the pack is really key to them. And they have this system whereby they have circles of development and their base circle is all around the care system. It's about creating safety and creating a neurological feeling of safety within a group, which you can do within your family, within your workplace, within a group that you're working with. And you can do it for yourself. So a lot of us have got quite underdeveloped care systems as humans. We've not had that put in place. If you start filling in the gaps in that system, it makes building everything else on top of it much easier because you've got that solid foundation. So that's where the regulation comes in. That's where the safety element comes in. And if you think about traditional models like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, pyramids that some of us might remember from university, safety is right there at the bottom. So learning to do that and learning the way that the wolves do that, you can drop that into yourself or into any situation or into bringing people in or into bringing new clients on board. I mean, it's one of the first things I do is put that base layer in with any new client that I'm working with, because then I've already connected and I've already got the trust there, which makes everything else on top of that so much easier.

SPEAKER_01: 29:35

I think it's just absolutely fascinating that, you know, we've touched on it, that humans, we think we're so clever and particularly, you know, in our profession, we're very highly trained and we usually did quite well at school. You know, we think of ourselves as so clever and yet you think, you hear all this that these animals are doing and you just think, wow, like they've got it sussed, like they're really clever, the way they work out. Who's got a problem? Who needs help? How do we best integrate somebody new into our pack? You know, it's not a standoff and alpha male and everything. As you said, it's no, there's somebody here who's going to come and join us. How do we integrate them? You know, I know you've said to me before, they even relax the requirements for that new wolf for a while so that they have time to settle in. You know, it's like, oh my goodness, if we did a fraction of this in our working lives and in our teams, what amazing team we would have, not just safe and healthy, but thriving and efficient and effective and just, you know, all working to their strengths.

SPEAKER_00: 30:41

And the thing is, this is not something that we as humans... don't know and have never known what they're doing is all the things that we've forgotten we've got so stuck in our heads that we've forgotten that we've got this amazing system and we don't work with our system you know we only really pay attention to what's going on in our body or what's going on with our systems when something goes wrong and we need to go and see the doctor and I think as lawyers in particular we end up at the point where we've got illness or we've got long-term chronic fatigue and all these other things that go on that are prolific in our industry and that's how we view our bodies as a problem that's holding us back not as this amazing tool that we could use to do so many more things and it's like you know I always use the analogy it's like we're walking around with a smartphone which has got so much capability but we're only using it to text and then dreaming about being able to see moving colored pictures and one day when actually if you just press the right button it's all there already at your fingertips you just need to work at where the operating manual is

SPEAKER_01: 31:44

oh couldn't couldn't agree more as you say we well we've spent so much time being in our logical rational thinking part of our brain that even if we have we forgotten did we we ever know. I don't know that all this power in our way, whether it's, you know, gut instinct and that sensing, you know, you talked about how the wolves sense people's stress levels and things like that. And, you know, that is possible if you start to look for that and tune into that, you know, empathy and all those things are perfectly, I'd say learnable, but it's more just about discovering it. It's already there. You've just got to you know, get out of some of that rational thinking and get into it. and

SPEAKER_00: 32:29

I think one of the other things that you can think about as well is if you think about what we know about the human brain that logical conscious thinking part of it where we have the conversations with ourselves and our heads and we do all of our academic learning it's such a small part actually of our brain that we use for it we've got a huge amount of processing power there and we are picking up On all of these other things that the wolves are utilizing, it's just that we have tuned it out. And we are taught from a very young age to tune out and to tune into just only that bit of information is important. Only this way of doing something is important. So it's not that you're not still picking this all up. It's just you're not essentially listening to it. So learning to just switch over and go, actually, I need to be able to read this room. I want to be able to read that person. I need to be able to connect in with their neurology because there's an outcome I want from this interaction. Being able to do that in a very positive way can have a huge impact, but it's a lot easier and it's a lot simpler than people think it is because a lot of it is relaxing into it rather than pushing your way through to make it happen.

SPEAKER_01: 33:48

Oh, that's so true. That's the thing. It's not that this is, you know, when people do start to look for this, to learn about it, to understand it within themselves, it's not that it's another job to do or something to make things harder. As you relax into that, you know, I talk about it with authenticity. I'm like, yeah, it's not easy to go from being very inauthentic the way we might have been brought up as baby lawyers to become more authentic. That part is not easy. But once you get there, Everything is easier. Everything is easier. And it's, you know, it's very much along the same lines you're talking about. So there's, oh my goodness, there's just, there's so much. And I, you know, I'm sure we will talk again. And actually the next book, when I do get around to it, is going to be on authentic leadership. And, you know, I think it would be fantastic to understand more about this sort of work to include some of that as well. But where, for now, where can people go to find out more?

SPEAKER_00: 34:47

So if you have a look on my website, which is www.orthelian.com, and we'll stick a link to it down underneath where this is posted. That's the best place to get in touch with me. And you'll also see on there, if you have a look under services, there's the Wolf Leadership Program. And that leadership program is there both for individuals and for people that are running large corporations or teams, but it's just as useful for individuals. Anyone who is Client facing wants to learn about the different ways in which you can access this work and then utilize it in a working environment. But the other thing as well that I probably should mention is, there are some people that have been on that that have had profound impact in their personal life as well so i've had feedback from some clients where they came away from the weekend and one one person told me their marriage was saved because they were an impasse with their spouse could not communicate realized a lot about this character and about the energy then the neurology that was going on there they corrected themselves and the impact it had on that relationship within weeks had solved something that had been brewing for nearly a decade i had had another one who was using alcohol as a prop up. You know, you get home from work at the end of the day and you need two or three glasses of wine to unwind before you can switch off because it's been so stressful in the office. And they came back to me and said, actually, do you know what? Even though we'd not we'd not discussed alcohol or anything, just went back and went, I've put in place some of these extra bits. I don't feel like I need to do that anymore. And so that whole spiral that was actually concerning them at the back of their head about this, what's this doing to my health just broke itself without them actually even trying to do it. They just didn't feel like it anymore. So it really is something very special. And because we keep the groups that work with it so small, we can tailor it as well to make sure that you get out of it what it is that you want to work on and you want to access as well.

SPEAKER_01: 36:50

oh it's just it's it's so it's so amazing and i will get there i will get there and meet wolves and um you know i i work with various coaching groups throughout the year as well and maybe it's something that one day we will you know we'll get that coaching group and and come as well it's just it's just fantastic so i would encourage people to find out more sorry

SPEAKER_00: 37:11

and say well we'd love to see you there it'd be brilliant

SPEAKER_01: 37:14

Yes, it so would. Thank you so much, Claire. I think we'll talk again because I think there's so much that could come from this. But I just wanted to give people a little introduction to the work you're doing and to go find the website, which, yes, we will link below and contact you if they want to find out more. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 37:36

Thanks very much, Hannah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:38

Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Law and Lockdown and Beyond podcast. If you'd like to come and be a guest and share your story of your career in law, your experiences of lockdown and the pandemic and how things might have changed for you, or if there's something you'd like us to cover and you'd like us to talk about, do get in touch and let me know. Either find me on LinkedIn or email you can also subscribe to our youtube channel for more trainings and podcast episodes take care