The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Interview with Luaskya Nonon, Employment Attorney and DEI Consultant
Luaskya Nonon has been an employment attorney for 20 years and, alongside her legal work has created the Diversity Equity and Inclusion consultancy Equity Principle Consulting.
This is taken from the front page of her website. I'm in complete agreement with it, and that's why I was so keen to have a conversation with Luaskya.
If you keep doing things the way you always have, there should be no surprise when you get the same results.
No More Business As Usual
In this episode we dive into Diversity and Inclusion in law firms especially, what's working and what's not. What the future might hold and what forward thinking firms can do now. We also get into mental health and wellbeing and authenticity plus just how versatile a legal education can be.
You can find out more and connect with Luaskya at www.equityprinciple.com or on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/luaskyanonon/
About your host, Hannah Beko
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a lawyer, author, coach, corporate trainer and speaker focusing on leadership skills and mental health and wellbeing.
Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast, which you can find here: https://authenticallyspeaking.co.uk/p..., and runs The Legal Business Incubator membership for lawyers who want to improve their business development skills in an authentic way!
If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession https://bit.ly/fblawyers
Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin here / hannahbeko or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk for blogs and resources to support legal professionals.
You can also find Hannah's bestselling book, "The Authentic Lawyer, How to Create More Success in Your Practice and More Balance in Your Life" on Amazon and Kindle.
Join us for an upcoming event - you can find these here:
https://hannahbeko.eventbrite.com
Hello and welcome to the Law in Lockdown and Beyond podcast. law firms, mental health and wellbeing, and even a little bit of authenticity as well. So hello to you, Luasca. Please do come and tell us more about you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, first of all, I've got to start off by saying thank you to you, Hannah, for having me on your platform. I really appreciate that. And as Hannah said, my name is Lawaska Nonan. I am an attorney with 20 years of experience in transactional and employment law, primarily as an in-house attorney. I also am a speaker, a DEI strategist, and a coach for executives. In my consultancy, Equity Principal Consulting is the name of my company, we come alongside HR executives and C-suite leaders to create inclusive and equitable workplace cultures, primarily looking at their systems, policies, programs, and practices to identify bias and inequities in those systems to really create that environment where their employees can really thrive and bring their best selves so that they can do the work that they want to do, have purpose, and also enable the company to be profitable.
SPEAKER_01:There's so much to talk about there, especially it seems so topical at the moment as well. But first of all, how did you get into the sort of the second area, your consultancy on the side of your legal work. Tell us a little bit about how you sort of, you know, you said 20 years experience in the legal world. So how did you then decide and why did you decide to move into this work as well?
SPEAKER_00:Right. That's a good question. So it's interesting. I've not been asked. This is not the first time I've been asked that question. Right. And so I am a first generation American. I'm an Afro Latina and I have in the space of law, right? As an attorney, I'm, I've often been the only person of color or the only woman in many of the spaces that I have been in. And, um, it pains me in some instances to know that people that look like me have struggles when they're entering these corporate spaces. And so throughout my career, even though I was not advancing DEI in its current understanding of what that terminology is, I've always been working toward creating environments where people that look like me have a level of comfort and are able to really bring their true selves to those spaces to advance within the organization. And so So in my legal career, I I initiated in this space from a compliance perspective, right? For those of you in the US, you know that as an employment lawyer, oftentimes if you're in-house working with corporations, you're responsible for supporting HR teams to advance their affirmative action programs. And so that program and the support in that effort enables you to create that workplace culture where multiple people of diverse identities are able to be counted and recognized within the organization and that the organization is affording equal opportunities for people within those organizations. But to your point, Hannah, that you asked that's a compliance perspective. And I really wanted to do something more impactful, more strategic. And so I started my consultancy to work alongside corporate leaders who really wanted to push the needle and do more than the bare minimum of what's required by law, but really do more to support their organizations and really do more to support their people, especially those of diverse identities, to really have environments where those people can thrive and really bring their best self. And so I started my consultancy for that purpose.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic. I think if you don't mind, I think it'd be really useful for people to... Because this is something I'm continually trying to understand. So when you're working with these businesses, and yes, they have their legal and their compliance aspect of it as well. And then you said, obviously, you want to help them to go beyond that. So other than it's the right thing to do, and that sort of thing, why should businesses and organisations really care about this?
SPEAKER_00:Well, there are many reasons and there's many, many research articles out there and statistics out there that demonstrate that when your employee population is diverse, then that offers a diverse thought process of the organization collective. So there's not that homogeneity mind think where everyone thinks the same. You bring opportunities for innovation because of diverse thinking, diverse identities, bring diverse thinking, diverse experiences, and it enables people opportunities for organizations to really thrive, to bring more to the market than they typically would if they did not bring diverse people to the table to actually enrich their organization. Also, many companies that offer products and services to the marketplace, they must now recognize that the marketplace is demanding that level of diversity in the organization. People want to purchase things from companies that have a purpose but also a social justice element to it, where they're valuing the different identities of the people that they employ to ensure that there's like-minded values between the consumer and the actual supplier, the manufacturer. And so corporations need to be mindful of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's interesting because you mentioned justice there and a few other words that I could equate with lawyers, with law firms. I don't know whether you have a sense of just how good law firms are or aren't at this when you compare to other organizations?
SPEAKER_00:They're not great. Law firms generally are not great at this. They struggle in this space as well as any other organization, right? Primarily because law firms in particular, many of which, particularly those in the United States, have been established long ago, years ago, right? And the folks that have had the privilege and the opportunity opportunities to establish those law firms at that time were primarily white men. And so there's a level of perspective in those spaces where what's been working for them continues to work. And so although law firms today are trying, many are trying to diversify their employee population, And some are doing good work in this space. It takes time. This work is not something that happens overnight. And if you have a history of having predominantly white leadership in your organization, whether you're a law firm or a corporation, it takes time to really have diverse levels of thought within that upper level of leadership to really appreciate that everyone does not have to look the same in order for us to advance. There is value in having diverse people come on board because of the innovation that I mentioned, because of the vast variety of perspectives that are offered by different people and the ability to really speak to the needs of the different people within your organization. So law firms are not doing great in this space. Statistically, they are about on par as many of the corporations out there, but they are doing some work and they are making some strides.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Are you seeing... I know something we see quite a lot in the UK with the firms I'm talking to is they're getting better at the more junior end, the sort of attraction of people, but they are losing them as they progress, you know, five, six, seven, eight years into their career. And
SPEAKER_00:I think that that is a... that's an issue that's prevalent in not only law firms but many corporations, particularly because although you can hire, and I say this a lot with my new clients, moving forward with advancing DEI is not just about bringing on new people in your organization, hiring new people, recruiting new people, that's not the be all and end all because when you bring in diverse people into your organization, if you're not doing anything about the culture in that organization to create a culture where that diverse identity is going to feel welcome, that they're going to feel that they belong, that they're going to feel that they can be their authentic self, then they will leave. So that's the same regardless of any corporation you're talking about, but also those people, those diverse people that you recruit in and bring into your organization, if they don't see people that look like them at the top, again, if you're not creating opportunities for diverse people within your organization to advance within the organization so that those more junior people that enter and see that there's a path forward for them, then of course they're going to leave because they're not going to see that there's an opportunity for them to really advance.
SPEAKER_01:I know it's a phrase that we've heard for a long time in the sort of gender equality wars is if you can't see it, you can't be it. You know, if you can't see it, you don't feel comfortable even going for it, do
SPEAKER_00:you? Right. That's so true. And it takes a special person to push through that, the noise of homogeneity in that. If you can't see it, you can't be it. But there's a few, few people that can actually push through that and be the one, right? Be that one person. But it takes time for that one person. And that one person, it takes a significant amount of effort, right? Because there's policies and practices in place in these organizations that don't make it easy for that lone wolf to really push forward to advance within organizations like that. And so it tends to be a difficult hurdle to overcome. And many people choose to leave those spaces.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. I know someone asked me this a few weeks ago, you know, how quickly will we see change? When will we see change? And a bit like your comment a moment ago, a lot of law firms have been established for a very long time and the top levels of leadership. It has been that way for a long time and perhaps they would like it to stay like that until they retire, etc., For firms who maybe don't think like that or want to think differently, what's your, have you got any sort of real practical on the ground things that they could do? So the
SPEAKER_00:firms that I know that are making incremental changes changes, advancements in this space. They have identified a role and hired someone in the organization, in the law firm, if we're talking specifically about law firm, to be their DEI champion, to be their chief diversity officer in the law firm. And that person has the authority and the budget to really advance the EI. And it's not something that is solely the responsible of this individual. This individual just happens to be the champion. It's a principle that is woven throughout the fabric of the organization so that every area within the organization, again, even with a law firm, every practice group had a responsibility to advance the EI initiatives within the organization or within the law firm. And so when you have that level of authority given to someone and it's made clear that DEI is an initiative that we really believe in and we're going to invest in and we're going to put forth everyone's collective effort and we're going to hold everyone accountable for the advancement of DEI within your organization, there you see true advancements in this space and in those companies.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's, I know, again, it's come up in conversation recently that, for example, if you tied advancements or changes and things to equity partner salaries, for example, or something, if it's not tied to something tangible, it's just a nice thing or the right thing to do. It just doesn't get that traction.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed. You have to have accountability and you have to measure your goals. I mean, your goals need to be smart. Of course, they need to be specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and time bound, but they also need to be measured, right? So don't just have a goal and have it out there. You need to measure it. And you need to applaud the organization for their efforts because this, as I mentioned before, this is painstaking work. It takes time to actually move the needle, but the needle can be moved if there's consistent intentionality to move it forward.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think, going back to, I know it was a long time ago that this podcast started in lockdown, but going back to those routes, have things changed as a result of the pandemic, of lockdown, of possibly more flexible remote working? Has that impacted anything?
SPEAKER_00:I do believe it has. I believe that the social contract between the employer and the employee has changed. I think employees now are more vocal about what they want and what they need in order to really thrive within an organization. And they're now willing to seek it elsewhere if they're not finding what they need at the organization that they have. So I think that the playing field maybe has been leveled a little bit, maybe even a little bit more in favor of the employee where they have a little bit more leverage in what they want and seeking out what they're demanding, what they need from their employer. And when they're not seeing what they need they're leaving and so that that is i think more prevalent than it had been prior to covid
SPEAKER_01:yeah no i i would agree i know um it's interesting that i think prior to covid i never really heard about people changing jobs because their values didn't match with their organization and now it's brilliant it's like oh my values don't match and that could be it could be the diversity the inclusion the the feeling of acceptance the culture um kindness whatever it is that is important to those people they will seek out organizations that have those values
SPEAKER_00:they will and now organizations are um Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:in place and if you don't match it's not going to work for either is it exactly yeah it's one thing that I've heard you mention a few times about the sort of um feeling the sense of belonging and feeling that you can be yourself at work. I talk a lot about authenticity and its power as a lawyer in the law. And something that I have heard quite frequently is that for minority groups, it's much harder. It's hard for lawyers generally to be authentic because we've all been told that we should walk a certain way, talk a certain way, wear certain clothes, but that it's even harder for minorities. Is that something you would agree with?
SPEAKER_00:I absolutely would agree with that. But I... It all... I believe in recognizing who you are as a person and owning your responsibility, right? And so I believe statistically it has been proven that traditionally underrepresented individuals have had very difficult times in showing up in spaces, corporate spaces in particular, as their authentic self and feeling that they belong. As speaking solely for myself, I have experienced that as well. And it's taken some time to overcome that. particularly because I have worked really hard in my space, in my role as an attorney, and I have been able to overcome some of those challenges, but statistically speaking, and as I know, and having spoken to many people of diverse identities, it's challenging to be their authentic self in certain spaces. And that's one of the reasons why I thrive, I strive rather to work with corporations that have a desire to do the work, but also to help them to really create those spaces.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, I think it's important. I know it's been something that I've talked about for a sort of mental health and wellbeing protection mechanism, you know, trying to be somebody else, pretending to be someone else is really, really difficult and ultimately, you know, impacts your mental health and your performance, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it does. And it's interesting to go back to your point earlier about the impact COVID may have had on all this effort, to your point, I do believe that people, especially employees in particular, are less tolerant of being in spaces where their mental health and well-being is challenged. It's not at risk. It's not protected. And so that is another reason why people leave, because they recognize that that life is too short. Like we've all experienced a significant loss. life-altering events, the pandemic, that has brought it straight to our face how short life can be. And so I think wellness and mental health and well-being is now at the forefront of employers' minds as well, but employees as well. And so when an employee is really feeling that they're not being protected in that vein, they're more likely to leave. Whereas pre-pandemic, I think that they would just toughen it out. And I don't believe that that's the case now.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, I agree with you. I mean, you wouldn't think that people would go to an interview with a law firm and ask about their well-being policies or practices, you know, 20 years ago when I was starting out. No.
SPEAKER_00:But they do now. But they do now. And I occasionally interview interns. Our interns, law students are asking those questions as well, which is profound because they are by far further along the spectrum of being self-aware and being and having that that level of self-care than many in my generation have been before. We only began just recently starting talking about mental health and wellness, but they in the interview have raised it as concerns in some of the conversations that I have. So I applaud them for having that at the forefront of their mind and recognizing how valuable and important that is, that an employer will care for their mental health and well-being. That is important.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it is. Because at the end of the day, whether it's with lawyers or other professional services, businesses, that person is the product. They're the person providing the service. If you don't look after them, their mental health, well-being, happiness and performance.
SPEAKER_00:It is. And we spend so much time at work. I mean, so you've got to take that into account as well. So, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. In fact, I was listening to a Mel Robbins podcast the other day and she said between the ages of something like 20 and 60. We spend our most amount of time with our work colleagues. So choose them wisely.
SPEAKER_00:True, so true.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. It is true. One question I'd love to know the answer to as someone who's still a practicing property lawyer and with my consultancy as well. How do you find it? How do you find those two hats that you wear, if you like, the two sides to your career?
SPEAKER_00:It's very different in that... I try to, I focus on my work when I'm at work, right? So when I'm dedicated to doing my employment related practice, I'm very focused and very driven to give them my best self. There's some overlap though, right? Because when you think about employment law and employment law practice, that practice is of course focused on the law as it relates to employee relations, but there's the employee relations side of it, right? The human side of it, where you need to take into account of the individual that we're talking about And therein lies the opportunity for me to really think about my DEI training, right? To really understand what are we doing as an organization to help creating a culture where these things that are impacting this individual are not prevalent, right? Are not really causing them to respond in this way, or can we do other things that will support them in a way that would help them to thrive and not be in the state that they're in today? So there's that constant balance that I do, but But I enjoy it. I enjoy both my hats that I wear. And so that makes it fun.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. No, I agree because I know people say this to me and I say, but if you, yes, you do have to have some boundaries and you do have to know about your self-care and your time management and all of those sorts of things. But when you do work that you enjoy and it matters, it energizes you, doesn't
SPEAKER_00:it?
UNKNOWN:Agreed.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed, agreed. And there's something to be said, I think I keep going back to the COVID point, there's something to be said about doing things that you believe are of purpose driven, that you yourself are purpose driven, or that you're doing something that matters. Like after post COVID, that's now critical for many of us. We've evaluated our life and we recognize that some things we do that are not of value, that doesn't have a long lasting effect, that's not legacy driven or impactful in that way. And so to your point, when you are doing work that you believe is purpose driven, is impactful in a bigger way, then you're more inclined to do whatever it takes to make that happen because the impact is significant.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I couldn't agree more. It's so interesting because when I first started my consultancy business and I think it was my husband who was like, but you have a successful property legal business. Why would you now spread yourself so thin and try to do this? And I didn't understand purpose at the time. A lot of people talked about purpose and all of those sorts of things. And I thought, well, you know, making money for my family is my purpose. And then... It really did hit me in the pandemic because all of my training, all of my workshops obviously were stopped and I wasn't out there helping anyone anymore. And about three or four months in, I just felt awful. You know, my mental health had taken a real slide and I just realized one day it's because I wasn't helping anyone. And so I set up, you know, not just this podcast, but some networking groups and things like that because I just needed to help. It was, I think, as you say, when you find that purpose, it's not something you choose anymore
SPEAKER_00:It drives you. It drives you. It's amazing. And it's a fulfilling thing. I mean, and I hope that everyone finds that because I do believe that when you don't serve in your purpose, you're doing the world a disservice because there's something lost in the world because you're not doing your part. I mean, imagine if you weren't doing those networking things during COVID, how much of a loss it would have been to people. They may not have known it, right? But But you looking back on it now, realizing how valuable that was to so many people, how impactful that was to not have had that, especially during COVID would have, likely resulted in the mental health of people declining even more.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's interesting because people have said to me before, what difference has it made? I said, well, I wouldn't be in the role that I have now because it was someone I met online in COVID. One or two of my latest recruits are people I met in those networks. In fact, two of my recent recruits I met on those networking groups, not to mention the wonderful friends and business associates I've collaborated with since. So, yeah, it is big. Okay. I was going to ask you a question about how things maybe had changed for you since the pandemic, but I think you've talked about that already. Any sort of, particularly with the comment you just made about finding purpose, I know as someone who was a full-time lawyer before I found this work and with a lot of my clients who are perhaps unfulfilled stroke unhappy lawyers, Have you got any advice for people who perhaps haven't found their purpose yet?
SPEAKER_00:I do think that I believe in therapy. I believe in coaching, right? I have been able to gain so much clarity about my purpose by partnering with a coach. I have always known... What I was supposed to do, I've always known that advocacy was part of my DNA, advocating for people that don't have a voice. When I was right out of law school, I was a child advocate for the program in the U.S. It's called the Guardian Ad Litem. So you would come alongside an attorney and work with children that have been abused, neglected, and awarded to the state. And so I would go and meet those children. children, those students in some instances, but mostly children, and learn about them to report back to the court about the state of their well-being to really help them to adjudicate what is in the best interest of the child. So I was the voice of the children in those instances. And so I've always known that advocacy was important to me, but I wasn't quite sure in what venue and whether or not it was really just limited to law because law is so much about advocacy. And With the help of a coach, I was able to get clarity on how I wanted to advocate and the ways in which I wanted to do that. So I would recommend everyone to at least commit three to six months just to work with a coach because a coach a really good coach will be curious enough to ask the questions of the individual to help them uncover what they the answers already with within them right they just don't know it and and i also i think that there's such value in having a coach because we we're always so busy and always moving so quickly we don't have much time to just sit and be still and really avail ourselves of the possibilities. And when you're committing time in a coaching session, that's what you're offered. That coach is holding space for you to really just think about things, evaluate yourself, your well-being, and what you truly want. And when you do that, I think that it helps you, it has helped me to really understand and unpack what my purpose is and how I wanted to execute that purpose. So that would be my recommendation to anyone that is in that space where they're unsure of what their purpose
SPEAKER_01:is. I think that's so true. When I think of my own experience and others, you sometimes choose law at quite a young age and then you're on that conveyor belt of the studying and the exams and then the job and the experience. And suddenly, if you're like me, you wake up at 35 and go, oh, So is this it? You know, is this what I'm doing for the next 30 years of my life? I don't know if that's what I want.
SPEAKER_00:So true, so true. And for those of us that accrue law school loans, you remain on that conveyor belt for as long as you can to pay off some of those loans because it's a significant burden. So that sometimes precludes you from actually having the space, taking the time to even assess what you really want because you've got this big debt to pay.
SPEAKER_01:And there's the, I always think it's very interesting, the mindset belief around, can I do anything else? You know, can I? And that's what is interesting to explore with somebody else, isn't it? Because sometimes we get very closed minded as to this is all I know. This is all I can do. This is all I've been trained for. Whereas actually a legal training is so important. open so
SPEAKER_00:many doors. Absolutely, absolutely. And so when I'm meeting with new attorneys or attorneys that have been practicing for a while, and if they ask me something like that, I always ask them, well, you're an attorney, like you can do anything, right? Not many people are able to actually achieve the accomplishments that you have. So why can't you do anything? Not to mention the legal skills, the training that we have, is so transferable and useful in so many other spaces and not many people are trained to think like a lawyer just your thought process is is significant and it will take you far
SPEAKER_01:oh couldn't agree more couldn't agree more oh thank you so much it's been I know there's so many different ways our conversation could have gone and so many angles we could go down but um Thank you. And I hope it's given people something to think about, some ideas if they want them. But let's know, how can people find you, reach out to you if they have any other questions or anything like that?
SPEAKER_00:So my name is Luaska Nonon. I'm Luaska Nonon on LinkedIn. So that's L-U-A-S-K-Y-A, last name N-O-N-O-N on LinkedIn. I can also be found at my website, which is equity, E-Q-I-T-Y, principle, P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E, principle.com, equityprinciple.com. So those are the best places to find me.
SPEAKER_01:Wonderful. And I will make sure that I've got those in the notes as well. And thank you again for coming to join me.
SPEAKER_00:Anna, thank you so much for having me. I sincerely really appreciate this opportunity. You have a wonderful day and a great weekend.
SPEAKER_01:And you. Thank you. You. I hope you enjoyed that episode with myself and Luaska talking about all things diversity, equity, inclusion, also how we might be able to make some changes in our own organisations and a little bit about the importance of authenticity in the law, which you know is one of my favourite subjects. And also we got in the end there about the versatility of a legal training, legal career and other opportunities that are available to people so do get in touch if we can help you at all with any of the things that were talked about in the episode there I will make sure in the show notes that you have Luasca's contact details and also my own which you can find on LinkedIn Hannah Beko and my website is authenticallyspeaking.co.uk and if you would like to come and join us for an episode of the Law in Lockdown and Beyond podcast again do get in touch it's hannah at authenticallyspeaking.co.uk or linkedin message or facebook message or in fact any other way that you can find to get hold of me thank you very much