The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Friday Conversations, interview with Viktor Osasu, banking & finance lawyer and mentor
In this episode of Friday Conversations, I had a fantastic chat with Viktor Osasu a banking and finance lawyer, mentor to junior lawyers and speaker on fishing for talent in unconventional pools.
Viktor discusses how we can "fish for talent" in unconventional places and also the importance of mentoring to both junior and senior lawyers.
On 11th September Viktor will be hosting his first mentoring masterclass on How to Kick-start a Successful Career - Things I wish I knew. It is aimed at those who are just qualifying or starting new roles and jobs.
Success is a decision and too many times we fall into this programmed pattern of living to work but if there's anything this pandemic (and the lockdowns) have taught us, it is that life is transient and therefore we must live purposefully. In this masterclass, Viktor and guests will be discussing (amongst other things) having a career vision, core value index, setting goals, major pitfalls to avoid and visualising what true success looks like.
To register your interest for the masterclass, please visit https://bit.ly/38AwBWQ
Do connect with Viktor on Linkedin here https://linkedin.com/in/viktorosasu/
About your host, Hannah Beko
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and trainer to the legal profession.
Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast which you can find here https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/build-your-legal-business/id1569422462
If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession https://bit.ly/fblawyers
Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin here https://linkedin.com/in/hannahbeko/ or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Friday Conversations. Today I'm really pleased to be speaking to Victor Osasu and that's Victor with a K. which I think is fantastic. I've got a son called Victor with a C, so it's nice to see the different spelling. But it's really great to have Victor here with us today. He is a banking and finance lawyer and also a mentor and coach, particularly to junior members of the profession, which is how he and I first connected. And very interestingly, he is a speaker on fishing for talent in unconventional pools, which I'm sure he's going to tell us more about. So welcome, Victor. Come and tell everybody more about who you are and what you do.
SPEAKER_01:Sure morning Hannah thank you very much for having me on your show. Yeah my name is Victor Osasu I'm a senior corporate lawyer in a firm in the UK and yes I am passionate about people I'm passionate about seeing them grow succeed and I'm passionate about sharing my thoughts and ideas what I see is what I've seen worked in my life what I've seen working other people's lives and just from things I've gleaned from people people as well, I love sharing. So that's what I love doing. And I love talking about fishing for talent in unconventional pool. That phrase I coined around 2006, 2007. And I was at the Association of Graduate Recruiters and we're talking about recruitment, how to get people into the legal industry. And at the time, there was a dirt of not many black and minority ethnic lawyers in a profession. And I said, we've got to start looking for talent on conventional pools because we keep going to the same pool to find talent and then we complain oh we need a different type of fish but you've gone to the same pool all the whole time so so the idea was now we've got to start looking at other pools because you've got talents everywhere you're just not looking in right places so that's where that phrase is coming from and it's really a challenge to the industry to start looking and start looking at how they do things and maybe start challenging themselves about it
SPEAKER_00:Well, I know what I found really interesting when we first met and started speaking was that you were doing this mentorship role and you were calling it that and you're putting it on your profile and things because I don't think there's many lawyers doing that. And I'm sure I said that to you at the time and said, be louder about it, tell more people about it. But do you think it's something, I know unofficially people are mentoring behind the scenes, I'm sure, but to be talking about it as, as openly as you do and to put yourself out and say, that's what I am. I'm a mentor. Do you see many people doing that? I think it's fantastic, but I just don't see it a lot.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks. I don't think a lot of people talk about it. I don't think a lot of people put it out there like I've done. And to be fair, it took me a long time to do that. So you may recall when we spoke last time, I have been mentoring for quite a long time. I started mentoring people when I didn't realise that was what it was. It was actually called mentoring over coaching. And I I think it's part of the reinvention, part of reexamining yourself and the rest of it. You realize, actually, this is part of who you are. This is part of who I am. And if I'm going to be authentic about myself, then I've got to say who I am and not try and hide some part of me somewhere. And so it's something I do naturally. Wherever I go, I mentor people. I mentor junior lawyers. I've always done it. Even without a title of supervisor, I would do it. And it just made more sense to actually put it out there. And also the fact that I don't just mentor people within my So the particular firm I work for, I actually mentor people outside of the firm. I work quite closely with the Law Society diversity access scheme. I'm on a panel there. And so I mentor people from all over the place. People that refer to me. And so it just made sense that it be out there because it's part of who I am. And you mentioned Victor, who's not just a lawyer, he's also the caring mentor.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, oh, I love that. The caring mentor. Oh, absolutely. Yes, he's not just a lawyer. I remember going on that journey, you know, a few years ago, when I was trying to discover who I was, you know, outside being a lawyer and a mom. And what was the future? Did I want to be in this profession anymore? And if I didn't, what would that mean about who I was? Because, you know, I remember sitting down and at the time, I used some journaling to try and uncover some of this stuff. And I just remember writing over and over. I'm Hannah, I'm a lawyer. you know and just thinking there must be there must be more than this label so no I really like that as you say and the caring mentor as well is very much you from what I know about you very much so we're going to come back to that in a little while but I do want to talk to you about the last 18 months you know so the first question I love to ask people and I know this is going back quite some time now if you can even remember but you know before the pandemic Mick, did you work from home a lot? Was it quite a shock when March 2020 happened and suddenly you were at home full time? How did that work for you? I
SPEAKER_01:feel like a long time ago. I'm trying to blot that side of my line, my past. I don't want to think about it. Did 2020 happen?
SPEAKER_00:The year that didn't happen, as I was calling it at the weekend.
SPEAKER_01:I'll just go back pre-COVID. So yes, I work from home one day a week. So I was used to working from home. but it was very different because You work from home, you knew you were gonna be in the office the next day. You planned your day working from home. So you'd print stuff, take them home. You know what you're doing on the day you're working from home. Whereas March the 25th, when the announcement was made, it was very different. Well, for my firm, we actually started working from home two weeks before that. So preparing, we sort of knew it was gonna happen. But then when it actually then happened, it was a bit of a shock to the system because you're not the only one who's working from home everyone else is and you can't go into the office the next day to get the other thing sorted you want to sort out and you're not just working from home you have everyone else in the house with you so I think that's the other thing so obviously when I worked from home the kids were at school everyone was away you had the house to yourself but all of a sudden everyone's at home and everyone's sort of staring at you wondering what's going on so yeah that's how it was it was very it was a bit of a shock to the system and I kept asking the question what does this mean what does this mean what's going on yeah
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah no I'm with you there I mean I've been a huge fan of working from home for years although I would go into the office sometimes and work elsewhere but yeah the biggest shock was having everybody else around you know not being able to just wonder and make yourself a tea or coffee when you want you know without having to ask everyone else if they need anything and you know it was it was a huge shock to the system I'm with you there having everybody around And in fact, you'll be the first guest I've asked this question to, given where we're at now. But, you know, what does the future look like for you in terms of working from home? Will you go back to the one day a week from home in a structured way or does it look different? for you?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's going to look different. We've seen working from home has worked well for the people we work for in the sense that I don't think any femme really suffered because their fiennes work from home. In fact, I think everyone made a profit. So clearly it's worked. And on that basis, I think it's probably going to stay. So for me, it's going to be more of a hybrid where I would work three or so days a week from home and then two days in the office more forward to see people and just to catch up with everyone else and to have that physical contact as well I'm also a trainee supervisor so it's nice to also see my trainees and that sort of thing so yeah so I think that's what I'll probably be doing going forward yeah
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah I think you're with so many people there I think that that will be the common approach definitely
SPEAKER_01:and also in terms of a commute normally so the fact that I don't have to drive you know I'm probably helping the environment as well so there you go that's a plus from I
SPEAKER_00:totally agree I mean I've been saying it for years the money spent on these big buildings especially if we're all traveling into a central city location where there's little parking available so the wasted time commuting the parking the environment everything it always made sense to me that we did a half and half approach um yeah
SPEAKER_01:yeah and he's all changing as well because um And I think you work in real estate, so you know this already. Certainly in the residential market, it's all changing to how properties have been built. So in the past, so pre-COVID, we're talking about technology. We're talking about having just as much as you have the EPC and you check for carbon and the rest, you now check for how much internet connectivity you have to build in. So that was sort of the new thing coming. And I think the next one now will be more of, do you have added space in your environment for working from home? So a property with a spare room or dedicated office room room where it comes apart so with all of that change and change is happening within the property industry i just think it's a no-brainer this this whole thing has come to stay um you know a lot of people building um garden offices and that market has just skyrocketed already so this is the future
SPEAKER_00:it is in fact it's in my future i was just looking at the plans this morning to convert our garage into my new office so i'm very excited i'm
SPEAKER_01:sat in one right now
SPEAKER_00:oh i love it yes i do It is the future. I mean, I do have an office at home, but my eldest now needs it back for a bedroom. And so we need to look at that. And I'm quite happy to be having a brand new, bigger office with room to have clients in as well. So that's very exciting. But yeah, I completely agree with you. So what would you say have been the highs and the lows for you of the last 18 months?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right, okay. The highs and the lows. I think there's been a mixed bag for me in a way. So in a way, some things have been a low, but at the same time, I've seen a high. I've been able to put a positive spin to it. So... I think one of the lows for me was just this huge uncertainty. I just didn't know what the future looked like when it all happened last year. And then I went on furlough. I was asked to go on furlough. And that was a huge low for me because I asked a lot of questions of myself. You know, I have senior people come up to me to say, we think highly of you and, you know, the usual stuff. It's just for the sake of the business, we have to do this. But if a deal comes in, you'll be called back the next day kind of thing. which was kind of really in a way positive as well. But I kind of felt, you kind of feel low out of that in a way. You're not sure what's happening next. And I think that was that for me. And I think it's just juggling. I had a lot more to juggle all of a sudden. So I had four young people in my house, not all my kids, but four young people in my house, one of whom was a university student, 17-year-old who's just come back, an international student who's currently studying in the UK, who obviously couldn't be here that university because of COVID. So she had to be in the house with us. So all of a sudden you're managing all of that stuff and managing yourself and then trying to get your work done. And he was just really juggling a lot and really trying to learn how to prioritize. So that was a bit of a low for me in that sense. In terms of the highs, I think he's having the opportunity to really reflect and think about what's most important in life and that kind of stuff. And so I've got to really buzz out of that. So I think 2020, when we were... of describing it is reinvention really for me. It's about, okay, hold on, let's go back. And I connected with you in 2020. I connected with a lot of people in 2020. A lot of things I wouldn't normally do. I had to step out, you know, even in fear, you know, there's that phrase, do it afraid. You know, I did love that in 2020 and I'm still doing that now. And I think that's probably a positive for me out of 2020 and of the whole lockdown is doing stuff. We lost loved ones, which is tough. Not all through COVID. Some COVID made an impact on that or accelerated the death, but they didn't really have COVID. But all of that really made us think about, or made me think about life a lot more and think about my purpose. Made me think more about what am I doing, what I'm doing? How do I spend my time? Made me really think about those things and make me realize that I really cannot take anything for granted anymore. So you get a lot of positives from that. in our sense from the last 18 months.
SPEAKER_00:I know you're a very positive person anyway which is why you and I get on so well but you know and as you said earlier you always try to put a positive spin on everything as I do as well and I think you're right I mean I love that the year of sort of reinvention and that is taking a positive spin on what was you know a truly difficult and completely unexpected and all the other words that we can use to describe it there aren't really words I suppose even looking back it seems so surreal that we were all suddenly you know one day going about our business as usual and the next day we were all at home going nowhere doing nothing um It was completely surreal, but yeah, many positives to take from it, I think. And I love yours as well. It's interesting. I did have a conversation with somebody last year and it keeps coming back to me about, you know, how will the legal profession change as a result of last year and where I'm, you know, I'm interested in that, but I'm also really interested in how it changes for the individual. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there because what I was talking about was, you know, have people's values changed, have what's important to them in their life, just like you were saying, changed and I said in my opinion they've not changed they were always the same but they weren't they were hidden they didn't know they didn't even realize we were driven by values of ambition you know wealth and security and all those things that we've been driving for since we you know came into the profession or studied to come into the profession whereas actually suddenly those values of home of family of use as you say purpose of why am I here why do I do what I do suddenly people people had time to think about that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, COVID put a halt to everything. There's a phrase I use all the time, which is pause and think. My friend shared that with me one time. And I think what COVID did was to really get everyone to pause and think. Some of us are still thinking, which I think is good because it's a process. But really, we sometimes we just have to stop. And I think we get so busy, particularly in our industry, that we don't have time for self. You know, we spend a lot of time and yes, we get paid to to help clients, and we do. But actually, self, do we actually spend time on self? And so that's part of my, and we'll come to this later, part of my mission really is about really thinking about the self as much as you think about others. Because how can you love others when you don't love yourself? How can you really serve others well when you're not actually looking after yourself? The phrase physician, treat yourself or heal thyself comes to mind. we'll come to that later
SPEAKER_00:oh no absolutely I couldn't agree more with you um yes we could we could talk for a very long time about that I'm sure we could um but I'd love you to and it may come into this you know um you you've got a an event or a something coming up soon and I want you to tell everybody all about that and how that fits with your mentoring plans
SPEAKER_01:oh sure no absolutely so um Over the past, what I get all the time, like I said at the beginning, all the time I get several requests for mentorship. I get them all the time in my inbox on LinkedIn and through my emails and stuff. And like I said, I'm passionate about people. I love to help. But I thought it would be really good to do this in a way where I manage my time well. There's no point trying to spread yourself so thinly. So I've come up with this idea of actually running a an online mentoring session. So it was almost like a group session, but I call it a masterclass, but that's not a buzzword at the moment. So I called it a masterclass where basically we're looking at kickstarting a successful career and the things I wish I knew. And the idea really is because we're in September, it's the beginning of a new season, a new quarter. A lot of things are new. People started new classes in school, people being promoted, trainees qualify, new trainees moving to their seats. You know, a lot of new things out in this time of the year and it just made more sense to actually have it now so how do you start well you know how do you start the way you want to go because one of the things I've discovered is that success is actually a decision success is not a matter of chance you decide whether you want to be successful or not and so you know so really that's that's what this this this masterclass is about and it's open to everyone it is not I'm not discriminating at all you know I would have friends there who are from different industries but I'll be coming with my experience from law, but also the fact that I've worked in other industries for coming into law. So I've worked in education, I've worked in politics before becoming a lawyer. My wife works in the medical field. So we're coming on all of that stuff because we talk about this all the time. And so we'll be really trying to share some nuggets on how to really start well and how to really, you know, it's really about fresh start, but it's also about gaining clarity. Some of us have always done the same thing day in, day out, but we're expecting change. And the question is how can you expect change where you've done the same thing over and over again? So it's about, okay, how do you come about, bring about change. There are a lot of books out there on these things, but what we're trying to do in this program is to look about how, rather than just telling people, this is what you need to go and do that, read that book. It's about how do you do that? How do you put together a career vision? What does that look like? Do you need one? What is it like to actually get mentors? Where do you want to be in the next five years, the next 10 years? How do you get there? So it's really looking at all of that side of things. How do we manage ourselves? How do we manage? I mean, there's a lot we won't be able to cover, but hopefully it'll be series from this, but there's a lot to cover in terms of at one point in the future, we're looking at things like money management. How do you, you're making this money. How do we manage it? How do we multiply it? There's a lot of stuff we're looking at later on, but also by an immediate now, we're just looking at how do you start? How do you start? Well, how do you gain clarity? So that in the next four months over the next to the end of the year, you actually look back and say, yes, 2021 was a better year. You know, that's all we all want.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. No, I love that. As you say, success as, as one of my coaches says, and I suspect you might've heard him on Cubhouse. He always says, you know, success is not a chance. It is a decision. And it is up to us. And, and also your point about change. I mean, I love a good quote. People, people laugh at me for it, but I love a good quote. And again, on change, you know, I always say to my clients, we can't change things. We can only change ourselves. You know, ultimately everything is about starting with us and, and, And yeah, having that plan for the future. I think it's ironic that when you come into a profession like law, you have a plan because you need your A levels or your degree or whichever route you're taking. There is a plan, a clear and structured plan to get to where you want to be. But the minute you find yourself there, suddenly it's like, oh, well, I'm here now. So now what do I do? You know, what am I getting up for each morning? What is my driver, my motivation? What am I working towards? And you're absolutely right. We lose all sense of, um, direction at that point
SPEAKER_01:so absolutely absolutely and it's really about challenging everyone to really have new dreams and have bigger dreams because the minute you attain one you need to start before you attain you start thinking about the next one but really it's about a vision really because the vision is something that's bigger than you right it's really having about having a big vision because people confuse visions and goals and which are two different things um yes the goal is yes i want to have a training contract the goal is i want to qualify but there's a vision which is a bigger thing and that's the driver that's what keeps you up at night that's what makes you when you wake up in the morning and you're excited. Monday morning no longer becomes a gloomy day. It's a day where you know you're going to work. I'm going to make a huge impact. I'm going to make my clients proud. I'm going to make my boss proud. I'm going to make myself proud because I'm going to deliver the best service, what I call the Rolls Royce service. That's what I'm going to do. But you do that out of a place of that vision you have, right? So it's really about that. And yes, you're right. Sometimes you drop the ball. And I've done that many times where I attain a thing and I drop the ball And then later I look back and people have actually called me and said to me, hold on, There was a buzz, there was a fire we saw in you. What's happened? And that's because, you know, life happens, right? So it's really about trying to create that, be in that zone where you basically look beyond just what's happening around you and actually look more to that vision that you have for yourself. And that becomes a driver. That becomes a thing that keeps you going because you always have troubles in life. You always have things happen that you don't like. So it's about that. So that's one of the things we were looking at in this masterclass.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it sounds fantastic. well I'll make sure that in the show notes I've got the details that people can find and have a look at your masterclass or series of them as I'm sure it will become as you say there's far too much to put into one and I'm sure you'll have a lot of interest and you know the point you made about you know not spreading yourself too thinly and so doing this as a bigger as a bigger group have to say one of my biggest lessons this year in this past 18 months is the power of groups you know I put together my Wednesday coffee coaching group and I'm running a group coaching um uh program at the moment plus my mastermind and the real power of that is the people together in the group I mean yes I'm there I'm part of it but I'm a small part of it the main power is everybody else um so yeah I think you'll have you'll have some wonderful sessions there
SPEAKER_01:that's so true because also the other thing about success is that people think is that it's a success is a thing is a solar event something you do by yourself but it isn't human life is not meant to be lived alone And that's something, you know, COVID has taught us as well. We're meant to do these things together, you know, and there's so much joy in doing it together, you know. You know, maybe that's why there's the African phrase that says it doesn't take a person to raise a child, it takes a village, because really it's about everybody together. It's about collaboration. And that's what the future looks like. Even in business, it's all about collaboration. No one's running any show alone. So when we look into tech, everyone's trying to collaborate. You know, people are coming together saying, I can do this, you can do this, let's do this together. We can actually... reach far farther we can reach more people that way than actually trying to run our shows alone and and maybe that's the reason why sometimes um we don't attain what we want or we don't get to where we need to be because we're all trying to do things alone and but by actually sharing you know and realizing that um you know it's okay to share with others it's okay to have others with you you actually go far and it's that whole thing about um and i know why we do that because i'm in that situation so where i just think i'm in a solo event alone part is part of competition but what into to realise that the sky is big enough for all of us. And so no one's really going to steal your ideas. It's really about collaboration. And yes, we are lawyers, so let's talk about that. You can always put parameters in place. You can always make sure you have the right framework in place. But really, it's about collaboration. That's what the future looks like. And everyone's been doing it. No one's been talking about it. But we need to encourage individuals to think in that sense as well. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, we do. And it's so refreshing to hear other lawyers talk about collaboration over competition, which is completely where I'm at. And yeah, it is the future. Definitely. So I've got one final question for you. What has been the biggest learning or something you've realized about yourself or about our profession over the last 18 months?
SPEAKER_01:I think the one thing I've realized about myself is. I've always known it, but I've never really done much about it. It's just this whole thing about perfectionism. And so I'm a perfectionist. I'm a recovering perfectionist. And also I... So in that space, I always want to make sure I have all my docs in a row. Everything must be perfect before it goes out. And so I have that, obviously, with the job I do and the rest of that. But I didn't realize actually that has affected every area of my life. And so therefore, with doing anything and everything, it must be perfect first when it goes out. But what I'm learning about myself is actually what works best is progress over perfection. It's actually starting. Rather than spending hours there looking at a piece of document you need to work on thinking, how do I do this? Just start. And the minute you start putting the words together, the minute you start drafting, it will all come together. And the same thing with life. The minute you start, you know, and so it's really about starting. I think that's the one thing I've learned about myself. And I think there's been that fear and that whole thing about perfectionism, which I'm not quite sure where I inherited it from. But yeah, it's really understanding that that is an issue and then realizing actually there's a way around it. That sometimes perfection is just not a name for procrastination. And it just probably explains why I probably procrastinated on a lot of things. For example, this masterclass, because it's all about perfectionism, right? Where it's not, you know, it's progress, just start it and see how it goes. Nothing started one day becomes a huge success. You know, it takes time. It takes time. So that's what I'm learning. And that's over the last, in this time really, that's just what I'm learning. And I can apply that to every area of my life, to my work, to everything. It's just about starting, you know? You want someone to be your friend, start with a hello. You know, that's where it starts, right? You don't start telling them your whole life history. You just start by saying hello, hi. You know, it's all about starting, you know, being brave, taking that bold step. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. And that'll be so useful to so many of our listeners because perfectionism is a very common lawyer trait. Probably something firms have been hiring for for years and years. But yeah, progress over perfection, definitely. And I think you're right, it is a form of procrastination, which is another... way of saying we're stressed as well. So yeah, I think that's a beautiful takeaway from this year that I'm sure others
SPEAKER_01:can
SPEAKER_00:learn from as well. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Victor, for joining me. We could talk for such a long time. I know, there's so
SPEAKER_01:much to talk about, isn't there? But yes, I'm sure we'll have more and more opportunities to do this. But no, it's been great being here and just being able to share these things and for the opportunity. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:No, you're very welcome. Very welcome. If any of our listeners would like to come and join me for a Friday conversation sometime to share your lockdown journey and what the future looks like for you, then do get in touch. It'd be fantastic to speak to you and do connect with Victor and myself on LinkedIn if you haven't already. Thank you very much, everyone.