Six Years and a Lotta Lattes

Six years ago, ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® started with a simple idea: create the kind of conversation you might have over coffee with a colleague about the challenges—and opportunities—facing engineering and other STEM organizations.

In this season finale, my co-producer Quincy joins me behind the mic as we look back on six seasons of the podcast, the lessons  learned along the way, and what might be next for ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®. We discuss why I shifted to a solo format for Season 5, how the companion ebook Engineering for Society influenced the season's content, the realities of producing a podcast while balancing a demanding professional life, and why some of this season's most difficult conversations were also the most important.

We also explore how the podcast has evolved from a focus on engineering education to broader conversations about organizational systems, leadership, culture, technology, and change—and why listeners both inside and outside STEM continue to connect with these topics.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The origins of "Grab a Latte and Listen"
• How ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® has evolved over six seasons
• Why Season 5 shifted to a solo format
• Lessons learned about balancing impact, perfectionism, and self-care
• The emotional story behind What Systems Lose When Fear Leads
• Why systemic challenges often appear in different forms but share common roots
• How the Engineering for Society ebook helped shape Season 5
• Possibilities for Season 6, including guest interviews, panel discussions, and research-to-practice conversations
• Why your feedback will help shape the future of the podcast

I'd Love to Hear From You
What topics, guests, challenges, or conversations would be most valuable to you in Season 6?

Use the fan mail link in the show notes and let me know. Your feedback will help shape the next chapter of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®.

Resources
Request your FREE copy of the ebook, Engineering for Society at EngineeringChangePodcast.com

Transcript

Intro

Announcer 0:01

Welcome to ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®, the podcast designed to help REDEFINE engineering by RE-imaging who we see as engineers and what we see as engineering; DE-siloing our approach to academic programs, research, and problem solving; and FINE-tuning organizational conditions so people with different backgrounds and perspectives can contribute fully to outcomes that serve all of society. Each episode offers actionable takeaways you can use wherever you are in the process of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®. I'm your host, Dr. Yvette E. Pearson.

Dr. YEP 0:02

Welcome to Episode 34 - With Quincy!

Dr. YEP 0:38

Hello, agents of change. Welcome to the ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® podcast. For this episode, I am delighted to be joined by co-producer Quincy. We are going to take a look back, not just on season five of the podcast, but we are gonna take a trip down memory lane through all six seasons, looking at the highs, the lows, the ups, the downs, the sideways of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® podcast. So grab a latte and listen as we dive into episode 34, Six Seasons, and a Lotta Lattes.

Disclaimer

Dr. YEP 1:20

Before we begin, I want to take a moment and put this disclaimer out there because some of the topics that we discuss will get a bit heavy. I want to be clear to everyone that I am speaking as a private citizen on my own time, using my own resources, and not as a representative of any university or organization. I'm speaking in my personal capacity based on my personal and professional lived experience.

Why "Grab a Latte and Listen"?

Dr. YEP 1:47

So with that, I'm super excited to have our co-producer Quincy join me today, pulling him out from behind the mic. Thank you for being here.

Quincy 1:58

Always glad to talk to you.

Dr. YEP 2:00

You know, as I was trying to think of ideas for this episode as we kind of tossed around what it would end up being, and I thought about the tagline, grab a latte and listen. I realized I don't even know if you drink coffee. Do you drink coffee?

Quincy 2:17

I rarely drink coffee. I've listened to more episodes this year than the number of cups of coffee that I've drank. So rarely, rarely.

Dr. YEP 2:30

So you're telling me you never grab a latte and listen.

Quincy 2:34

I never grab a latte and listen, but a ( shameful) protein shake, some tea. There are other things that I could grab and drink, but but never, but never a latte.

Dr. YEP 2:47

Of course, you would go the healthy direction. Grab a protein shake and listen. Doesn't quite have the same vibe.

Quincy 2:55

We'll work on that. We'll work on that for season six.

Dr. YEP 2:58

Well, I'm working on my latte right now, so I'm grabbing my latte and talking about ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®.

Quincy 3:06

Okay. So I know that that is the tagline, but you're gonna have to refresh my memory of how we landed on Grab a Latte and Listen.

Dr. YEP 3:16

Ah, well, um man, this was back six years ago when before we started the podcast. We were talking about the format and how we wanted it to flow. And we were doing interviews at that time, and I didn't want it to just be question and answer kind of back and forth. And so we were talking and we said, hey, we wanted it to be conversational, just like this, just like we were having the conversation at that time. And I think I even mentioned this maybe on the trailer or on the first episode. I'd have to go back and listen myself. That we wanted the podcast to come across like two friends sitting or two colleagues sitting over a cup of coffee having a chat about whatever the topic was. So grab a latte and listen.

Quincy 4:04

Yeah, that that does sound familiar. I know when

ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® - Then vs Now

Quincy 4:07

you were when we were getting started, you had some big ideas for what the podcast would be, and we've kind of worked through that for what a few months maybe. And so now here we are six years later. Are you happy with where the direction it's going? Are you - is this where you thought it would be? Or what's your take on where we are now versus where we thought we would be when we were getting this started?

Dr. YEP 4:35

Well, I think I said this when I was kind of giving a shout-out on the last episode about the sixth anniversary. I really questioned whether anybody would listen at all. You know, I sent it out to my family group chat, which is about 18 people. I'm like, I hope five of them listen. I could probably count on my mom and my brother, maybe my daughter. But the podcast, when we started it, one thing that I remember is that we were focused squarely on engineering education. And the whole big picture umbrella has been focused on systemic change. That part hasn't changed. Our focus is not as narrowly pointed toward engineering education because we do talk about engineering and other STEM-based organizations, whether it be institutions or employers, and that could be industry, federal government, any range of employers, consultants, and even STEM professional societies. So we've broadened that scope a bit, which I think has been good because again, the focus has always been on systemic change and what we can do better as STEM-based organizations. So that's one big shift that we've had content-wise or maybe audience-wise.

Dr. YEP 6:00

And I think part of that was driven by some of the feedback we were given or getting, because I remember early on getting emails from people who were part of state departments of transportation or different types of engineering companies saying they were listening, they were applying some of the things they were hearing, or they were asking for me to help connect them to other people so that they could do some of the things that we were recommending. And that's when I realized, oh, wait, this thing is way bigger than education. It's really reaching the broad range of engineering organizations.

Quincy 6:41

Yeah, I do remember a conversation we were having at one point about do we need to split this up into multiple podcasts under the same umbrella and having an academic version and a n industry version and you know, the you know, three completely separate focus areas under the same ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® umbrella to make it easier for the audience to find the particular path that were of interest to them. But I think weaving them all into one singular podcast is probably the better approach, and that's what it turned into right and this last season, season five has probably had the biggest shift or seen the biggest shift in terms of that content. Like this was the first one that you've done, solo so you didn't have guests that you were interviewing. This one was much less academic and much more focused on industry applications. You had a book that you were aligning it with. So let's dive a little bit deeper into the shift this season. So why why did we have such a big shift for season five?

The Season 5 Shift

Dr. YEP 7:58

There are a few reasons for the season five shift. One is, looking back, we had quite the hiatus - a couple of years, and I especially within the year 2025, I was running into people at conferences, really strangely, people saying, Well, can I take a picture with you? I listen to your podcast, and I'm like, where is this coming from? I haven't recorded an episode in two and a half years. And but people were asking, when are you going to restart it? We need people to talk about these things, these systemic change issues, these issues around inequities. And so there was this push from audience members that said, hey, where have you been? We need to hear from you. And so with that push and me trying to just wrap my head around how to build this into a very uh already very crowded schedule. And as you know, I got the full team on a text chain. We got on a Zoom call or two, just trying to hammer out what this could look like.

Dr. YEP 9:09

And for me, it was a couple of things. One was, it was a lower barrier to re-entry. And what I mean by that is when you're booking with guests, you've got to coordinate around schedules. My schedule is bananas, your schedule is bananas, and then we've got to get our bananas in the same bunch and then try to incorporate somebody else's bananas into it. And so it was like, you know what? It would be much easier if we could work on what the content would be. And if I have to get up at 5:30 in the morning or sit up at midnight and record, I can do that. So it was a lower barrier in that regard. The second thing is there were a lot of topics that we talked about this season that I have some pretty strong feelings about. And while with the conversations with the guests in previous seasons, I interjected some insights and experiences. I wanted to take it to a different level and to kind of scope it out a bit differently. And so content-wise, it took a shift as well. You mentioned the ebook, Engineering for Society. I actually wrote that ebook, man, late last year. And I think I reached out to you because I don't think you even knew I was working on it, did you?

Quincy 10:43

Not at that time. I think it was later when you actually mentioned that you were working on it.

Dr. YEP 10:48

Yeah. So when I was working on the ebook, I was like, man, I could I could make podcast episodes correspond to these topics. And that's when I called you to bounce that idea off. And so that was the approach that we went into the season with, that we would have these topics for the podcast episodes that paralleled the topics in the ebook. Not that we were doing a chapter by chapter thing, which, of course, I'm sure you'll ask me about that, because that didn't work out exactly as planned. But it was something to be sort of a companion, podcast and book, ebook companion.

Quincy 11:27

Before we get into the companion podcast piece, I want to circle back to something you mentioned. A s we were trying to align schedules, my schedule, your get scheduled, a guest schedule. Previous season you would be up to night one in the morning or get up at five in the morning to work through this. And

The Episode that Almost Wasn't

Quincy 11:54

another shift that I think I noticed this season is you were more protective of your space and your time. Is that something that was real or was that just my imagination?

Dr. YEP 12:07

It was real. One thing that I have come to realize in navigating some of the change that I've experienced with my organizations or organizations I've been a part of for the past several years, is that if I don't take care of me, nobody else will. And so you saw that, or I think you saw, I don't know that the audience necessarily picked up on it. There were times when I just had to stop and take hard pauses. There were episodes this season that I questioned if they would happen at all. For instance, episode 33, AI Doesn't Fix a Broken System. That was an episode I was just chomping at the bit because I wanted it to get out because I was in so many of these conversations in different organizations that I'm a part of. And there, the conversations were all over the place regarding AI. And I'm constantly saying, we're not asking all the right questions. So I was chomping at the bit to get this episode out, but my body and my mind said, girl, you need some rest. You need a break. You cannot go 24-7, 365. You have to stop, you have to breathe, you have to eat, you have to sleep, you have to spend time with your family, you have to have your dedicated spiritual time. So something has to give. And when I put it all on, put it all out on the table, that's when I reached out to you and Rachel and said, you know what? I don't have the time or the energy or the bandwidth to develop the content for this episode right now. Can we pump the brakes? And I'm a very systematic person. My mom will tell you I have to do things almost exactly the same way. My morning routine, different things that I do, they have to be done the same way, or I will be off kilter. So for me, releasing a podcast episode every two weeks, I had to do that - until I didn't. And that's when I reached out to you and Rachel and said, you know what? I think we're gonna have to just pump the brakes. Can we push this episode back? So instead of it coming out in two weeks, we'll have it come out in four weeks. And by the time we got to that four-week point, things weren't any better. So we actually had to push it back another two weeks. And I found myself amazingly okay with that. And then I think the other thing is in recording the episodes, you you mentioned how I would burn the candle at both ends and put in the midnight oil and everything because we are a small team and I finance the podcast myself. So I don't have a budget for a whole bunch of extensive editing. And when we did the interview basis, there was a lot of editing that had to be done. So a lot of times I would be working long, long hours to get that done. It's minimized more with the solo podcast. So the other thing that I wanted to say about what you just mentioned is I decided that my perfectionism was also a hindrance because I was letting perfection get in the way of good enough. Sometimes good enough is good enough. And I had to learn that and I had to apply that. And that's something I did this season.

Quincy 15:51

At the same time, while you were less focused on making it perfect, it was still important to get good content out, though. And because you mentioned the AI episode, and we probably had more pre-show discussion about that episode than we did any of the episodes in the previous seasons, because that's a topic that everybody's trying to jump on the bandwagon, everybody has something to say related to AI. You wanted to make sure that you were covering the important topics that relate to this podcast, the theme of this podcast, and not just putting out more AI slots to use an AI term. So while perfection may not have been what we were seeking, it was still important to maintain a high quality of content.

Dr. YEP 16:47

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm I'm not gonna put out something raggedy now. But yeah, the the topic had to be perfect, but my delivery didn't, is what I'm saying.

Quincy 16:59

Right, right, right.

Dr. YEP 17:00

And and going back to what you were just saying, just that episode and the back and forth you and I had, I because I think the two of us, we had framed this very differently in our minds. And after hearing the way that you framed it and also the concerns you had about how we needed to be careful and how we ultimately framed it, I wanted it to be clear. Like, I'm not trying to become or have ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® become an AI episode. It's kind of like what happened with diversity, equity, and inclusion when those things weren't bad words in society. Back in 2020, after Mr. Floyd was murdered, you started seeing all kinds of companies and consultants start marketing themselves as DEI experts. You saw people that had or companies that have been in the industry forever doing HR, all of a sudden they were marketing themselves as DEI companies or DEI experts. And I know this firsthand because through my universities, I interacted with some of these companies and I saw that they really weren't. They were HR folks trying to tag on that label. So I didn't want to give the perception that that's what I was trying to do with ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®. I wanted to be clear that our focus is still our systemic change, and that's why we're framing even the questions around AI in a very different way from the way I hear most folks framing them.

Quincy 18:40

Right. We didn't want to be the shoe company that suddenly turned into an AI company just because it's the profitable thing right now, right?

Dr. YEP 18:51

It's the trend, you know, and I've just never been a quote unquote trendy person. I'm kind of chuckling to myself because my daughter will go in my closet and say, Mom, you've had that shirt for 15 years. And I'm like, it's still good. I'm gonna still wear it, you know. I don't buy stuff to go with the trends, and that's the same sort of thing with my work. I don't like doing things that go with trends. I like doing things that are durable and that are gonna be impactful at the system level, which gives us that sustained change, that sustained impact.

The Toughest Episode

Quincy 19:29

So out of all of the episodes that you've recorded so far, which one or two do you look at as being the most challenging?

Dr. YEP 19:46

This is a question I could answer from different angles. I think in terms of getting the episode out the door, as I mentioned earlier, the AI episode was that episode just because of the timing of it and just having no bandwidth to get it done and get it get it right, get it done well. But if I come at that question or the answer to that question from a different angle, I would say that episode 30 from season five, which was What Systems Lose When Fear Leads, was the hardest episode for me to do. And it was more from an emotional angle. There was a lot of emotional labor that went into that episode. It was it was difficult and it was rewarding in that I felt that I had been silenced by my organization for so long that it was refreshing to be able to share my side of the story, my lived experience. And in fact, when some of my former team members heard it, I got text messages from them saying, you know, they knew that there was a lot that I was dealing with as we navigated that very difficult season. But with me being in the leadership role I was in, they were not privy to every single thing. And not to say I wasn't transparent because I shared with them what they needed to know as we were navigating it, especially as it impacted them. But at the same time, there were things going on behind the scenes that I wasn't able to share. There were nights that I came home and cried myself to sleep. There were mornings when I got up - and I try to pray and spend time reading my Bible every morning. And I try to ask for God's guidance as I go throughout the day. But during that season in my life, it was just like an outpouring of God, I need help because I don't know how to handle this. Not just for me, but for the people who you put me in leadership for and with. And I need them to be okay. And so these are things that nobody saw but me and God. And my mom, when you know, she'd see me coming home, she could see it in my face. And she she didn't ask me about it because she didn't want me to rehash, but she was also open to hear or to listen whenever I needed to open up. But for the most part, there was just a lot of things I couldn't talk about. There were lies that were being told in public media that I was not allowed to tell the truth about. And so having this platform and having this opportunity to finally say, let me get some things off my mind. And then on top of that, we've had so many clients that have been severely impacted by all of the cuts in the federal government from jobs to grants, and a lot of grants that people's lives and livelihoods that were dependent upon, all of those things, they just they just weigh so heavily. And to be able to give a voice to some of these people that are impacted by decisions being made without them in mind. As some of as my clients' grants got canceled, they weren't required to submit final evaluation reports. But I offered, and and every single one of them took me up on it, to write final evaluation report because I wanted to be very specific about the impacts of the termination of this funding, not only on the science and engineering discoveries that are now not going to happen, but to give a human face, to give a human element to it. And so being able to incorporate those voices, those experiences into that episode again, it was it was a lot of emotional labor. So it was really hard for me to do, but very worth it. It was worth it.

Quincy 25:47

I can hear the emotion in your voice as you were kind of recounting that episode, and I know it meant a lot to the people that you were able to give a voice to, and so a lot of times we look at this as an opportunity for others to hear their voice. I'm glad that you were able to find the space to be a voice for of the larger community and other people that were impacted there.

Dr. YEP 26:16

Thank

The Future of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®

Dr. YEP 26:17

you.

Quincy 26:18

As you talk about the future of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®, or as you think about the future of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®, what are the topics that you think you want to explore? And what are the things that you think that the guests want to hear from you? Because I know you say you get a lot of people that talk to you about, hey, I listened to the podcast, I've learned this, I've learned that, but what are the things going to the future from that engagement standpoint do you think you need to focus on?

Dr. YEP 26:50

Actually, I'd like to hear more of that from the audience. And I maybe this is a good time to make a plug - If folks will click on the fan mail link in the show notes and let us know what you want to hear more of. I would say the topic around AI, the topic around meritocracy, those things have generated a lot of foot traffic and a lot of engagement when I share them on social media. I think I told you, Quincy, before we started this recording, my daughter, who thinks I'm not necessarily the most interesting person in the world, she actually reached out to me over the weekend and said, Mom, your podcast was great. So she had just listened, listened to the AI podcast and she thought it was great. I was kind of floored. I'm glad I wasn't driving at the time because I probably would have run off the road or something. But the other interesting thing is thinking about, although we we started off talking about how when we began ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®, we focused on engineering education and then kind of went to engineering and STEM organizations more broadly. After the AI episode, my next door neighbor who is in the banking industry reached out to me. He had seen my post on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I follow you on LinkedIn. I checked out your podcast, and the AI episode was great. And then he texted me the next day. He said he'd been, I think he said, sucked into the podcast over the last couple of days. And so I'm like, that was reassuring because even though we market it as STEM and engineering, because that's our background, what we're talking about is broadly applicable in the organizational space. And so whether it's banking or engineering or medicine or any other field, what we're talking about has relevance. And so going back to your question about what's next, I would really not to say we're gonna shift and say our audience is everybody from now on, but I'd love to have more of those stories and shout-outs going on to let us know who's listening and what they're learning, how they might be applying things.

Dr. YEP 29:15

The other thing I've been thinking about is the switch this year or this season to the solo format. I really do miss the interviews. So I think there are advantages and disadvantages of both formats. What I like about this season, I shared some of it before, but if you've listened to the prior seasons of ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®, we did have these solo episodes that we called the Soapbox. So I got to pretty much be on my soapbox about a topic for the entire episode, which tended to be shorter than most of the interviews. So I feel like I got a chance to do a season of soapboxes this year or this season. What I would like to do maybe is a combination because I do like the opportunity to take the deeper dive solo, but I miss the conversations. You know, whenever we would have a guest on, people would ask about the format and we would try to have meetings with each guest before we recorded. And I would send them a bulleted list of topics. I never once sent a guest a question because I did not want it to be question and answer. I wanted it to be conversational again, going back to the grab a latte and listen, let's just have a conversation over coffee and hear the kinds of topics we could talk about. And I would just take my cue from whatever they said. You know, when I brought the topic up, they would say something, and then I would just kind of go from there. And so I missed that aspect. So I think for season six, I would like maybe a combination, have the solo episodes, but then have a really intriguing guests that we could have a great conversation and take deeper dives into their organizations and what their organizations have been doing or experiencing around that topic. I don't know. What do you think?

Quincy 31:10

I like it. I think that for this next season, having a little bit of variety. So there will be some soapboxes, there will be some engineering education discussions, there will be some industry industry discussions, and maybe we'll just have to, as we look at the different topics going forward, maybe there'll be some panel type formats where we have one person that represents different industries, you know, one from industry, one from academia that can provide different perspectives on the topic. Because one of the things that I see or that I have learned working with you on the podcast and outside the podcast, that the importance of the academic side understanding the industry component so that what they're teaching the students will translate into the workforce side of things, and vice versa, for the workforce to better understand how things are being taught and what goes into the curriculum so that they can leverage that in the workforce. So maybe finding more opportunities just bring panel discussions and individual interviews and then your soapbox, I think, to address some of these different topics because the landscape is changing, it is changing fast, so there's there's a lot of movement and a lot of conversations to be had.

Dr. YEP 32:34

Absolutely. And another thing is - I know we did some of this on some of the season one through four episodes - and that is looking at it as an outlet for dissemination. Now, I'll back up and say this. I'm not talking about somebody coming here and saying, here are our research questions and here are our methods and all this, but I'm talking about solid research to practice, conversational, not something that's going to get too deep into the research. But here's what we know, here's what you can take away and consider applying or adapting to your context. In the past year, we've seen a lot of change in the research space, and that has extended to publishing, where people publishing around topics like inequities in STEM education and practice, people have run into roadblocks with that type of publishing. My research team and I have always tried to have a research-to-practice focus where we weren't relying solely on getting things out in journals, but we're trying to get information into the hands of decision makers who can put some of what we're learning to work. And I look at this as being an opportunity for that type of dissemination as well. So, like I said, we did some of it during seasons one through four. And it may be an opportunity, as you mentioned, since the landscape has changed so much, it's a it's an opportunity to revisit that and maybe have some guest spots where we can have that true research-to-practice focus. There are engineering education research podcasts, and they do their thing and they do it well, but that's not what this is that I'm thinking of. Does that make sense?

Quincy 34:35

It does. That makes sense.

Dr. YEP 34:37

Well, you heard it, folks. I make sense sometimes.

We Want to Hear from You!

Quincy 34:42

And remind them again to share what topics they want to hear and our guests they want to hear from, or you know, challenges that they're facing. And I think that you're gonna be open to all of it as long as it falls under the engineering umbrella. Is that fair?

Dr. YEP 35:02

Anything that falls under the ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® umbrella. Yeah. So drop that fan mail. Again, the link is in the show notes, to let us know what types of content in season six and beyond would be of most value to you. And I think Quincy, you just gave a great list, so we will leave it with your list.

Quincy 35:26

I

Different Fruits, Common Roots

Quincy 35:27

know we've been talking a lot about this season and the background history of how we made it to this point, but let's go behind the mic a little bit. And what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned from having these either conversations or soapboxes or the research that goes into it? What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned through these five seasons?

Dr. YEP 36:05

I could take that response in a number of different directions. Would you want to narrow my focus a little bit on what direction you want me to take with that answer?

Quincy 36:18

You've had a chance to hear a lot of different perspectives. You've had a chance to hear from students who are trying to navigate the engineering curriculum, you've talked to other professors, you've talked to um you know industry leaders, and while I know you have a lot of knowledge that you are sharing, you're also a sponge, and you tend to soak up a lot of information. And so is there a new perspective, or is there some new insight, or are there are there any lessons that you've learned just through these five seasons of conversations with people?

Dr. YEP 37:17

I think one thing that is enlightening is how we can have such different stories, but they all have a common thread. So when I think about episodes where I might have talked to Dr. Monica Cox or Dr. Donna Riley or the folks from Black in Engineering, Ann Gulley with Process-Driven Math and mathematics accessibility, each of those episodes had different stories behind them. The people had different stories and different challenges that illuminated kind of the common thread that ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® is designed to address. And that is, as we're thinking about problem solving in the STEM space, and specifically at that time in the engineering space, we have to look at the systemic challenges and systemic barriers and fix those problems. One thing that hasn't changed over the six years is we still see a lot of folks who are throwing stuff up against the wall to see what In the past year, and I would say depending on what state you're in, over the past three years, it's been common space to be anti-DEI. It's been commonplace for equity to be the bad word in some spaces, and now you hear empathy being another bad E-word in some spaces. And it's just like we're taking these gigantic steps back. And what it takes me to think about is when we started this podcast, it was May 20th, 2020. This was before Mr. Floyd was murdered. Now, if you take yourself back in time to that time period, we were just pretty much a month into learning that we were in the midst of a global pandemic. At the same time, Mr. Floyd was murdered about a week or so after this podcast started. And after his murder, you started seeing all of these organizations put forth these statements of commitment to social justice, diversity, equity, and inclusion. You started seeing people hire people and place them into positions to supposedly or reportedly do something about the injustices and inequities that we saw. And those of us who have been working in this space and doing things in this space for years before this, we were cautiously optimistic. And some of us were not even optimistic, we were just cautious because we wanted to see how much of this was performative and how much of it was set up to lead to meaningful change. And what we saw over time was that a lot of it was performative because we started asking questions months in what's the plan? What are you actually doing? What have you taken a deeper dive to figure out? You've put somebody in this position. Have you resourced them to succeed? Or did you put somebody there just so that you could come back and say they failed later without acknowledging that you never set them up to succeed? So, fast forward, when you get to 2022, 2023, when you have states that are now saying you cannot do this thing that they define as diversity, equity, and inclusion - and I emphasize "they define" because it's a far cry from the work that most of us, at least the folks I know in this space, actually have done. So when you have state laws that come and say you can't do this, and it's really easy for you to say, okay, we tried, and you walk away, that tells a great deal about your commitment to begin with. On the other hand, you have other organizations, other institutions that went down in the fight kicking and screaming, and who are still trying to find a way to get things done, despite now, within the past year, the attacks we've seen from the federal government. Because when you say that it's okay if people like me are marginalized, or you question when people like me succeed and say, oh, it has to be because it was some type of favoritism was shown, not because of our excellence or our merit - that is trying to diminish who I am, and so that takes it to a whole different space. And so I know this is a long answer to your question, but when I think about when you talk about lessons learned from the podcast, it's everybody, if you listen to all the episodes, people have different stories. But if you dig down to the roots, you find common ground, you find common roots. And that's what we have to be able to address. And that's why when we talk about organizational change, and I talked on the last episode about our MESA ® process. One big part of that is understanding the root causes of what we see and why we're seeing it. Because if we don't fix that, we're just gonna have the same problems resurface over and over and over again.

Quincy 44:22

So we're coming to the end of this episode, but this has been really good at reflecting with you on this path from where we started to where we are now. Do you have any parting thoughts on this podcast from almost not happening to having listeners in over a hundred countries?

We Appreciate You!

Dr. YEP 44:44

I just really appreciate the audience. I mean, I mentioned earlier how taken aback I was to run into folks at conferences who were fans, and I guess I never thought of the possibility of having fans. And so I just really appreciate the audience being being here and sticking with us and coming back so strong after us taking a break for so long. So I'm really looking forward to season six. And again, send that fan mail using the link in the show notes so that you can have a voice in how we shape season six. Because if it's not meeting your needs, if it's not hitting your interests, then what are we here for? So please make sure you share because we want to include your voice. And I just I just look forward to many more seasons to come.

Quincy 45:45

Good deal. And I know you talk about having fans and that being a new experience, but we don't want you to be like Rihanna and make your fans wait a decade to get a new season. So so let's let's keep this going while we've got some momentum.

Dr. YEP 46:01

That is my intent. So while we're we're gonna take a break for the summer, I look forward to coming back in the fall. And I think of it in semesters, I guess, because I'm in academia. So I'm looking forward to season six being during the fall semester. Is that short enough?

Quincy 46:20

I think that's fine.

Dr. YEP 46:23

Well, this has been a great episode. Thank you again, Quincy, for hopping on the mic with me and taking me back through memory lane.

Quincy 46:32

No problem. I enjoyed it.

Dr. YEP 46:33

With or without your latte.

Quincy 46:36

I'll work on that for the fall season.

Dr. YEP 46:39

Okay, I'm gonna hold you to

Grab a Latte Live? - In Dallas?

Dr. YEP 46:41

it. But you know what? While we're talking, you asked me about thoughts about future episodes. There are in the area that I live in in Texas, or not too far away, because I live in the country with a K. Let's not get it twisted. But not too far away, there's an area that has a lot of different international coffee shops. I thought about the possibility of asking if we could do some live ENGINEERING CH∆NGE® recordings there. What do you think about that?

Quincy 47:11

I like it.

Dr. YEP 47:12

People could literally grab a latte and listen.

Quincy 47:15

Right, right. I like it. And then you can start the episode with the flavor latte that you're having that day and you know have the guests live during the podcast.

Dr. YEP 47:24

But are you gonna fly them to the Dallas area to be here with me?

Quincy 47:30

I think there's a lot of talent already in the Dallas area that we can just focus on. Um, so I'll put that on my to-do list as well.

Dr. YEP 47:39

Just start talking money. People get quiet when you start talking about money.

Quincy 47:46

Unless one of the big coffee firms won't would like to sponsor us. I think we'll have to work around our current budget.

Dr. YEP 47:56

So we'll we'll see. That might be an opportunity to explore here in the DFW area. So I'll hold you to trying to identify some guests that we could tap into locally and in these coffee shops as well. I saw a feature on the local news station, and it hit me like, ah, that's something we could probably tap into, and it could be beneficial to the coffee shops and to us.

Quincy 48:20

I like it. I like it.

Dr. YEP 48:22

All right, let's do it.

Outro

Dr. YEP 48:24 Dr. YEP 48:24 Announcer 48:24

Thank you for listening. If this episode was useful, do me a favor - subscribe and leave a five-star rating and review. It helps this work reach others who are navigating change. To download resources or share ideas and questions for the show, visit engineeringchangepodcast.com. Until next time, remember the most meaningful change comes from being as intentional about our systems as we are about our solutions. That, my friends, is ENGINEERING CH∆NGE®.