Episode 21: Equity and Inclusion in Organizational Leadership

This episode is a conversation with Dr. Joel Ducoste, President of the Association for Environmental Engineering and Science Professors (AEESP). We cover a range of topics on diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in STEM education and professional societies, including accountability for DEI in teaching, research, promotion, and tenure.

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Transcript

00:00 ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Engineering Change, the podcast designed to help redefine the engineering education experience by reimaging who we see as engineers and what we see as engineering; de- siloing academic programs and problem solving and fine tuning academic culture and climate. So people from all backgrounds and identities can succeed. Each episode will leave you with strategies to put into practice wherever you are in the process of engineering change. And now here's your host, Dr. Yvette E Pearson

00:33 DR. PEARSON: Professional societies are key to driving change in engineering and science, whether it's defining and communicating a body of knowledge, establishing and enforcing a code of ethics, or promulgating best practices in a given area. These organizations provide leadership for the directions of engineering, education or more broadly, STEM education in practice. Our conversation today is with a leader of one of those societies. In it, we tackle a number of topics from representation amongst organizational leaders to identifying and valuing Jedi competencies on par with and as part of technical competencies. Our guest today is the 2020 - 2021 President of the Association for Environmental Engineering and Science Professors, a professor in the Civil Construction and Environmental Engineering Department at North Carolina State University and interim Associate Dean for Faculty Advancement. He has received a number of awards and honors, including a Fulbright Fellowship, NC State Mentoring Awards, and most recently was elected Fellow of the Water Environment Federation. He has served

01:56 DR. PEARSON: on EPA science advisory boards and is currently on the EPA Board of Scientific Counselor Safe and Sustainable Water Resources Committee. And if that's not enough. Our guest also co-hosts the podcast Environmental Conversations. I invite you to grab a latte and join us as we dive in to engineering change with Dr. Joel Ducoste.

02:23 DR. PEARSON: Joel, thank you so much for joining me today. It's great to have you on the call.

02:28 DR. DUCOSTE: I'm happy to be here. This is a great opportunity to speak with you that I'm excited about this opportunity.

02:36 DR. PEARSON: I am, too. I always like to start these conversations, just letting folks know how I was able to connect with the guest and for this particular conversation. There's actually two storylines, and I'll start with the first one. We actually received an email through our podcast website and Karl Linden, who's past President of AEESP, reached out and suggested that I invite him, you and Maya Troutz, who's also a past President, and have either all of you or one of you to do an episode focused on the great things going on with AEESP.

03:19 DR. DUCOSTE: Sure. Yeah. And I know Maya and Karl very well. We go back a long time Karl and I've done research together because we operate on an overlap in a research area together we used to live in North Carolina, and that was a great opportunity to [unclear]. And we still collaborate even though he's out now and UC Boulder but they're great people. So I'm grateful to have them as friends and colleagues.

03:51 DR. PEARSON: I don't know Karl personally, but I do know Maya and she is definitely outstanding. We're working on a project that's really focused on the equity space in engineering infrastructure. So I'm really excited about that and I'm excited that we were able to get you on, and we do have plans. So your current President of AEESP, and so what we did was just sort of said, hey, let's let's kind of split this up a bit and so we have you on now and we have plans to have future episodes with Karl and Maya focused on their work as well. So I think that's going to be a win win win all the way around.

04:32 DR. DUCOSTE: Yeah. Anything to broadcast AEESP. And you're giving us three opportunities to do that. From our different perspectives, we can only be grateful to have that much airtime. That is definitely a blessing

04:48 DR. PEARSON: Well, again, I appreciate you taking the time. And the second part of our story about our journey is you and I actually had the pleasure of meeting a few years back, when the American Society for Engineering, Education or ASEE, as we'll call it, WEPAN and also NAMEPA teamed up to create and hulst, at that time it was the first collaborative network on engineering, computing and Diversity are Connected, which was a conference held in the D.C. area. And so we had the opportunity to meet at that conference.

05:26 DR. DUCOSTE: Yes, yes. It was one of my first ASEE specialty conferences and it was so exciting. I think it was the first time it may have been the first or second time that it was offered by the committee. That puts that on behalf of the senior. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I enjoyed it. I went with colleagues of mine from NC State and they introduced me to several people and one of them was you. And I was really happy to meet you and get to know you, given that you're in our profession. So that made it very important for me to meet my colleagues that operates in this space.

06:10 DR. PEARSON: Yeah, it's always interesting because you think that through our technical professional societies, we get to see each other more. And as we were talking before the call, you know, there's only so much an individual can do. And then there's also the hurdle of the fees right? So there's only so much you can pay for. And so I must say that I have been in the past a member of AEESP, but I am not anymore because over the past several years, most of my efforts have been focused on ASCE and ASEE.

06:48 DR. DUCOSTE: Well, we were grateful that you were a member. We hope that we can convince you to come back in the fold  because you always once you're a member you are always a member, so to speak, and we like to get you back in there when to to contribute all the things that you learned from ASCE and ASEE, because sharing best practices makes all of our associations better. So I'm grateful that you do that.

07:18 DR. PEARSON: I'm gonna have to talk to Tom Smith and let him know I might have to retire from ASCE. I don't know how much they might want to hear that. But no, it's really great. And even not being a member of the organization, there's still great opportunities to connect with and to learn from what each other's doing.

07:38 DR. DUCOSTE: Very true is it's not in silos, as we have said briefly before the call, but the things that we're doing cannot be done without collaborations and partnerships and bringing together Breck's best practices. So that's the only way that we can move our society forward.

07:58 DR. PEARSON: Absolutely. So for those who are not familiar with AEESP, can you give them a brief introduction to the organization? What's that pitch that you're going to put out there for me or for someone else to say, hey, I want to be a part of that?

08:15 DR. DUCOSTE: Well, AEESP first stands for the Association of Environmental Engineering and Science Professors. We are an association of approximately nine hundred members that includes faculty, students, graduate students and postdocs and including affiliated members that are all looking to advance the education and research of environmental engineering and science. And we're always continuously growing and impactful, recognizing that the realm of environmental concepts must proliferate through all the engineering and science disciplines. Everybody must be thinking sustainably and continuously, trying to figure out how best to manage and minimize the impact that technology sometimes often does to our environment. And so we are the association that helps with that effort, making sure that we are putting the best body of knowledge and environmental engineering and science, as well as promoting and trying to continue putting the best people out there that are in our practice area.

09:36 DR. PEARSON: And that is quite the mission. And it's a huge mission, a huge undertaking, but very important. And you mentioned about putting the folks out there, putting the people out front. One of the things that Karl mentioned when he reached out was about how AEESP has been really successful in terms of its leadership and, to to give a bit more detail, I'll take a step back one of the things that when I'm when I'm talking to, if it's a student that I mentor for instance, and I will talk about it from a recent mentoring conversation I had. There was a young woman student who is at a university that's that's not the university that I'm currently at, but I serve as her mentor and she was sharing with me that she was considering leaving engineering, and this is a senior level student at the time. She first expressed this to me. She had about one and a half semesters left in her degree program. And when we, you know, talked about it, she expressed how she had just undergone such a just a tremendously traumatic journey in the way she has been treated as a woman in engineering to the point where she's like, if this is what it's going to be like, I don't want any part of it. And this is a young woman who's doing outstanding work that is sure to have huge societal impacts. And it was just very disheartening to me that we could lose somebody like her because of what they were encountering. And so in in talking with her and trying to coach her and help her navigate some of the situations that she was experiencing, we started talking about her next steps, what's after graduation. And and so I was happy because she started then asking questions about how do I choose an organization? You know, when I looking at interviewing with people, with companies or whatever, how do I identify an organization and make sure that I don't run into the same thing. And so one of my suggestions to her was, before you even go to an interview, I have a resume interview in the environment we're in right now is just take a look at the Web page and see what the Web page tells you, not just in the words to express regarding their their mission, but also in the images. What do you see when you see their website? Do you see yourself show up in leadership? Do you see yourself succeeding in every every rank of the organization? And so that's one of the things that I think is, I would say, sort of a visual clue to what really goes on. One thing that Karl mentioned in his email that when he reached out was that you all had experienced some really strong success in advancing leaders in the organization from diverse backgrounds and so I just want to hear you talk about that. You know, what have you accomplished in that space and how have you done it? What have you learned that others can possibly adopt or adapt to do the same in their organization?

13:16 DR. DUCOSTE: Maybe. Let me start with how leaders should be selected in an organization. Past presidents are part of a nominating committee, and they put forward candidates that the board of directors of the association will approve and then put out that list of potential candidates that would go into the board of directors for consideration of leading the organization and helping it move its mission and vision forward. And what has happened over the years is that the past presidents are looking for candidates who they feel that they have contributed to the association as past chairs of committees and and or members of committees that have put forth the volunteerism because we are a completely volunteer organization. So we talking about people who already have day jobs, who are being asked to on behalf of supporting our community and our members of our association to put additional time for that support. So it's a big ask. And they have been able to, you know, look carefully and see who's out there that they can elevate and know that they would do a great job should they be elected. And so that's how I was a member of a committee. I was chair of a committee. I put forward some of the volunteering for the association and a past President, asked me would I consider taking the next step for a significant leadership at the level of the board of directors, and so through that process, I think, you know, we've been fortunate to identify members who are representative of a diverse group. Maya Trotz myself. There are others. Of course now my gray hairs is getting in the way and it's going to kill me for not remembering. We have board members who are also of diverse backgrounds who have been put up in front of, you know, as a list of candidates and have been selected by our membership. And so that also sends a message that our membership sees that, hey, the person's background is what's most important to determining whether they have done something on behalf of the association and have the confidence that those individuals will help lead the organization and keep it moving in a continuously advanced and improved state and doing their due diligence to do that, which, you know, in a call and saying with their successes, we still have a lot of work to do. I think we're not immune to some of the challenges that we have and that other associations have a broadening participation. So I don't know if I answered your question, but I you know, I wanted to paint a picture of how that happens. And Karl is correct. We've had you know, if you looked at our board of directors, you will see that diversity has women, there are African-American, Latino, Latina. And so it's it is a sign that the organization will elect have confidence in people doing great work, will continue to support and put forward initiatives on behalf of our members.

17:32 DR. PEARSON: I really appreciate what you said, especially when you talked about how the folks who are who rise to the level of leadership that you have, it's based on what your committee of what you are contributing to the organization, what you're contributing to the scientific and engineering community. And the reason why I point that out is because I think a lot of times those of us who are people of color, who are women, persons with disabilities, persons who identify as LGBTQ plus whomever, we are often tagged to lead those sorts of efforts, often ignoring the fact that, hey, you know, I was a whole engineer before so I can do more than diversity stuff. And so just to see that the organization is doing just what should be done, and that is recognize that there is technical competency that comes in all identities and we want the most technically competent people. And the other thing is that, you know, a lot of times there is a whole lot of conversation that seeks to sort of separate this kind of diversity from the concept of excellence, as if you have to lower your standards, if you're going to bring in a person of color or a woman or whatever it this really high leadership or technical role. And so it's great to hear that AEESP is looking at things a lot differently from some organizations.

19:12 DR. DUCOSTE: We want an organization to continue to support its membership. We want leaders who will carry out and advance, like I said, our vision and mission and make course corrections as needed. We're not a perfect organization. There are things we can do better. All organizations. And we have to elect people who can recognize that things can be done better, offer up their creativity and their lived experiences to to generate new ideas that may not have been put forward before. And that's the whole point, is you don't ever want to exclude any group or anything because it's buried within that zone is the next extremely great thing that is maybe being left out because that creativity is not there, that the experience is not there. But the bottom line is we all want the oppurtunity to serve based on how we've contributed what we've done in our respective fields or, you know, disciplines, as well as giving back to the organization that we are trying to serve. That is the bottom line determination of whether or not you will rise to leadership if you haven't been elected. Maybe the membership feels like, well, you're not ready yet and maybe just doing a few more things. You will be the next time when you've had people who may not have been elected the first time around, but with a couple of years or more contributions and persistence and again another past President say, hey, could you, you know, maybe put your name and a hat? We still think that you will be a great candidate and help move this organization forward. And they do. And then they get elected. You know, it's about service. I've always said that the field that we operate in, the academic field, that we operate, our faculty, we are in the service of others. Bottom line, that is our mission. I mean, we use vehicles of our research, our education to promote that. But at the end of the day, we are in the service of others.

21:37 DR. PEARSON: Absolutely. So thinking about the faculty members who comprise AEESP as an organization, I think about in terms of where we're talking now and the diversity just amongst the members of the organization, I think it's probably quite different for AEESP than it is, say, for ASCE, because we know from the data that environmental engineering, bioengineering and those sorts of disciplines that have a very face forward image of really helping society, those organizations tend to be those disciplines, rather tend to be a bit more diverse in the beginning. And so I wonder if you could speak to how you think the diversity of the environmental, engineering and science fields plays into what you were able to accomplish in your efforts in the organization, in bringing diverse faculty in? Because I believe bringing diverse people in, whether it's faculty practitioners or otherwise, is a place that a lot of organizations struggle. And yours may be a little easier because of the diversity of the environmental, engineering and science disciplines. But is there some insight you can offer there?

23:05 DR. DUCOSTE: Well, let's be clear. We still have a lot of work in environmental engineering and science. I will say, because we benefit society, that there is this altruistic fundamental service component that we're using technology and our expertise in engineering and science to put forth public health and environmental health protection innately. We're going to attract those that have that as part of their mantra when we're coming into this STEM disciplines. Right. We have grown significantly in terms of gender and the fraction of women that are participating as part of environmental engineering and science. But black indigenous people of color, we still got a bit of work to do. And it's the same challenges that all STEM disciplines still have about, you know, figuring out what are the systematic barriers to entry, what are the things that we are doing for the retention and the persistence of these individuals towards their degree. What are we doing to sponsor key support, to coach, to mentor these individuals once they get into the profession, not only in academic careers, but also in the private sector? We're not there yet. I will say there is still much work to do. I mean, we have people who are interested in we have, you know, faculty that want to work harder to do a better job. You know, of course, this past year of societal and unfortunate and bring it out in the forefront some of these challenges that's been around for quite some time. But it has now, you know, took front stage. And, you know, there is a lot more effort and by individuals in our different association. AEESP included, there are many that want to see change, that want to do change, but there is a lot of hard work to do and not say that we are, you know, the shining example to say, hey, come to us and we will share best practices, you know, be our collective faculty from our respective universities. And so the challenges we see at our universities is the same challenges in our associations. We still need the coalition of the willing to do that hard work to change systematically. What are those barriers to figure out what programs we should be doing to support, you know, their persistence in thinking throughout the undergraduate graduate, postdoc, faculty pathways? You know, we just can't recruit because recruiters just OK, yeah, we've increased the numbers by 50 percent rate and then they drop off and they don't persist. What happened? Because they also didn't do the work on the other side of the important equation, which is what are you doing for sponsorship? How are you building a sense of belonging to ensure there are experts? I will be the first to say I am not an expert in this area. You are others who have navigated this space a lot longer than I have. You know, we all have our own original maybe a domain expertise, whether that but some domain expertise are in that area. And these are the people that we should be bringing in listing, as you know, faculty that are doing great work and helping with an important societal problem that needs to be corrected with the best practices, the research, the scholarship that, as I've read, many papers and I'm like, you know, I'm not sure we need to do more studies. I just think we just need to operationalize all of this. People before us have done great research. Why aren't you reading it? And then I say, you know, I'm preaching to the choir. I know this. But the bottom line is that, you know, it's not always just reading the research and the literature. That's only step one. You need to have engagement. I mean, that's what we do in our own research groups, that we just do our own reading and our students do our own reading and we work in just the reading Sibos no.  We read, we know the literature. We we try to understand it. Then we engage. It's like that's the price. But it just seems like everybody wants to "give me something to read". I'm like, "and then what? What do you want to do with that"? I mean, you need to engage. The engagement is where you learn and make the corrections of what you read because you can interpret everything wrong. And if that's the case, it's through the engagement is where you make those slight adjustments and course corrections to move forward. And I don't think people understand that the reading is only the first step. A training is only the first step. Yeah, training and reading without engagement will get you nowhere.

28:49 DR. PEARSON: Absolutely. And, you know, I'm really I'm chuckling here, but I'm just having flashbacks of conversations I've had with people. And, you know, through my company, I consult people and oftentimes people will reach out because they want a training  and that's good. But like you said, it's just one piece. And what I try to communicate to them, is that training is a piece of what should be a comprehensive strategy, because one training doesn't fix anything. It checks a box. It makes it look like, OK, we're doing something in the right direction, but it's not going to ultimately get the work done. And I think one of the challenges is, and you mentioned it several times, is the systemic piece. People don't necessarily want to take the look in the mirror to see what is it within them as an individual, within their organizations that's been rooted and that's been grounded and baked into policies and practices that have caused the problems we see. And so that the typical approach is to sort of put that Band-Aid on our say, hey, we're addressing this because we bolstered our recruitment efforts without paying attention to just what you described. What are people going to encounter when they get here and. Are they going to have the story of this young woman that I just mentioned who said that she wanted to quit before she started the career because of what she encountered, where she was? And so it's that sort of thing. It so many efforts, I believe, fail because they focus on trying to fix the people. They think that, you know, a person of color coming in our person from a low income background or a person, you know, whatever traditionally marginalized identity, they view that in person or that group as having this deficit without recognizing, no, people don't stay here, not because they can't, you know, do the work or they can't, you know, whatever. It's systemic, that the system is not designed for their success. And so just getting folks to realize that it's just a huge hurdle. And you mentioned AEESP is not sort of the the the poster example for having everything right. None of our organizations are none of us as individuals are. And so that's why it's very important for us to keep growing and learning. And like you said, doing I mentioned in think it was an episode in season two, that this is one of the areas where we see so little research to practice. And it's always been baffling to me. And I shared in that episode how, you know, I see the research that some of my structural engineering colleagues do. and, you know, it's vetted, it's published. It's worked out and it's revolutionary. And it becomes a part of a standard of how things are done in the structural engineering industry. I see work that environmental colleague, environmental engineering colleagues do, and it's something that helps inform a standard. I've done work with my colleagues at UT Arlington that helped shape how regulations for different types of facilities are modified. And so why is it that in this space of diversity, equity and inclusion in engineering education or STEM education more broadly, do we struggle so much with taking what we know from the research and putting it into practice?

32:45 DR. DUCOSTE: You know, first of all, I think part of it is that it takes time your own each individual has to be willing to say that this is part of my responsibility to make sure that I make a climate and culture that is inclusive, inviting for anyone that wants to operate in this space. If I'm seeing that, when I look at in the audience that it's not, I should then say to myself, OK, there's something not happening here that I mean, you know, either not facilitating  or there is something systemic that is not that is producing a barrier that I need to take ownership of that and put in some time to correct it in some way. And my way of our contribution, not everybody is doing that. I let's let's be clear is that at the end of the day, we are pulled in so many different ways that are challenging, you know, what we do as academics in universities where, you know, of course, we must always consider increasing research expenditures. We have to be generating more scholarship. We have to be doing the kinds of things that universities are trying to promote because everybody wants to be part of that contest called U.S. News World Reports. I blame the system, the system of trying to achieve that with no end that is continual. You know, let's keep increasing. It means that we are recruiting individuals, that we're telling them this is why you are here and you're being measured on these kinds of things. Let's be clear and you can see that in promotion, tenure, advancement, awards, accolades, I mean, you know, the list goes on. The idea is that it's everybody's responsibility to play a small role when it comes to diversity, inclusion. There are so many different approaches that each one of us can make to put forward a culture and a climate that is conducive to a diverse field, whether that is whether it be in our own specific disciplines or outside of that. And so, you know, partly I fault the system that doesn't allow the metrics to advance and or reward those that are making these contributions in addition to some of the other contributions that are being done within their domain expertise. And I'm not a domain expert in this area either. I may have lived experiences and be somebody who could be on a focus group to share some of the things that are just traditional kinds of things that you read in this research of yesteryear. But the bottom line is I can still contribute just like anybody else who is in the coalition of the willing to contribute. So when I say systematic things, if it was part of the reward systems, if it was part of the promotion and tenure, if there was some fraction  of saying that because you contributed in this realm of doing this, that is just as valid then the, you know, and H factor of whatever that people are looking for, the the the the publications and impact journals that are highly regarded. Well, it's not an either or process. It's both, you know, and we should be rewarding excellence in both those categories equally, but the system does not allow us to do that. And that's the reason why I say I don't fault the individuals. I fault the system that they are placed into and to have to operate in a way that is all.

37:29 DR. PEARSON: Right, and at my university, in our school, we are on the verge of publishing a code of conduct and a statement of core values. And one of those things that shows up and we were very intentional about expressing is that. We see what we say, JEDI justice, equity, diversity and inclusion as being inextricably linked to excellence. We can't say we are excellent educators, or excellent researchers or anything else if this is not just fundamental core to what we do. And those are conversations we've been having about how do we not create a diversity award so that it's siloed, but how do we build in criteria into our existing awards to recognize that JEDI is important in teaching excellence? So if we say that we're awarding someone for teaching excellence, how do we have criteria that evaluate the JEDI part of it? If we reward somebody for research excellence, what criteria can we include to recognize the JEDI part of that? And that's when people will start to see that it should be a part of what I do, and then the people who are doing it actually get rewarded for it in a context that matters when we're looking at promotion and tenure.

39:00 DR. DUCOSTE: No, I agree. A thousand percent.

39:03 DR. PEARSON: I can't believe we're almost out of time already. So what I want to do is, is shift gears a little bit to an event that I know you all have coming up. Unfortunately, because of the pandemic, you had to hold off on your annual conference this summer, but you are having what you call a virtual appetizer. What is that?

39:26 DR. DUCOSTE: Yes, a virtual appetizer. I wish I came up with that. But it actually was created by the organizing committee of this conference and the leader, Dr. Dan Giammar from Washington University in St. Louis. And it was his way of describing that we normally put on our biannual conference every two years. It's a full blown conference that is done by submission of proposals by different universities that is willing to host this conference to bring together a membership of AEESP. And this year, Washington University and their collective of universities was a group together with Washington University that is putting on this conference. And so the virtual appetizer, as its name implies, is a smaller version. That will happen virtually because we want to make sure that we maintain safety and everybody's health and well-being in play to do some parts of the biannual conference, important parts of the biannual conference that we will do in service of our membership. And we are so grateful that our keynote speaker is our very own Dr. Yvette Pearson. And we are so happy that you will be kicking us off on this virtual appetizer. But again, it is part of this initiative that we do to bring forward everybody to discuss educational activities that we're doing at our different universities, to discuss concepts that includes diversity, equity, inclusion. We have some of those that are happening at this virtual appetizer to award or to acknowledge those faculty and students who are doing excellent with awards. And we're doing that virtually. So it is a wonderful experience that I will be honest. I know some of the listeners out there who have been long time AEESP going to the conference. I haven't been going to the conferences at the beginning or I will say I'm like many members of the association. I was a card carrying member that didn't do much in terms of service and only started doing it later. And I attended, you know, one of these conferences a few years ago and found out, oh, this is where all my colleagues are because, you know, we can be segmented and all the things that we have. But this is one of those conferences that bring us together, whether we operate in water, air, solids, you know, environmental systems, whatever the specific topic within environment, engineering and science. But we come together because we are all connected in the education that we provide the students that we champion the research and the service that we do to our community. And so this virtual appetizer will maintain that even though we can't meet in person. And the hope is, is that. We will get together in 2022 in person at Washington University (WashU) to maintain the in-person networking and connection.

42:57 DR. PEARSON: Absolutely. And, you know, I was excited because Dan actually reached out to me. I want to say last August about speaking when you thought the event would be in person, and I was to be the opening keynote for the full conference. And so I was just really excited to reconnect with the organization, and I'll also say to get to visit WashU, one of my colleagues, their daughter just started at WashU last year and that she's in the environmental area so I was able to do an introduction and connect her to Dan. And so like you said, that whole, that whole networking and being able to sort of foster this network of community network of support, especially for our young students who are out there so that they don't feel like they're in there by themselves and then through the organization and through the conference events. What I really like is that with the way the organization is structured, it's not only focused on the research aspects, the education aspects are equally as important. And so absolutely, I'm excited you were able to pivot and sort of have this this different approach that will lead into next year's in-person event that will keep our fingers crossed, will actually happen. And I believe it will, and so I'm very excited to be joining you for that. And I believe the date it kicks off is it July 12th?

44:26 DR. DUCOSTE: It kicks off July 13th and 14th for the virtual appetizer, and so this will be our opportunity not only to have you there, but bring you back into the fold, let me say. So this will be a way to let you re-evaluate where those funds go towards all those. And they'll say, you know, I want to be back here with my fellow environmental.

44:55 DR. PEARSON: So this I see now there was a strategy behind this. OK, I got no, I'm kidding you. So, know, it's going to be great,  and I'm really looking forward to it, I guess, in our last few minutes, if we could just if you had one piece of advice and I'll let you choose the angle you want to approach it from, one would be from the seat of a president of a professional society. One might be from an academician who's a leader in your field. One might be from your seat when you were in corporate. What would be that piece of advice that you would share with someone else in terms of. Just getting started, recognizing that I, as a person, as a leader, have a role to play in advancing the EI in my technical work. What advice would you give to that person about getting it started beyond just reading about it?

46:04 DR. DUCOSTE: I'll make it plain and simple. If I were to advise anybody who wants to do something in this space for our population, for the communities that we serve, I will say take the time, share your knowledge and the enjoyment of what you do with somebody with a different experience than you, with somebody who does not look like you and take them under your wing and provide the the enjoyment that you have in your own profession, exchange ideas on how to navigate that space they have already taken part in. This can be done whether you are an academic or whether you are in the private sector. You know, take that time to have that conversation, share the knowledge that you have shared, the enjoyment that you have with what that what you do. You know, if you do that and provide that sense of belonging that encouragement, that sharing of ideas, the amount of transformative, disruptive solutions that will be created, the amount of persistence to forever, resiliency to forever. I've always said that, you know, we can build monuments and great engineering marvels at stand the test of time, although climate change is testing that all the time to me to really spread what we do and that it really lives the test of time is our relationship with each other a sharing of our knowledge? Because once we leave this earth, that knowledge goes away, particularly the ones that are just whipping your head. Not everybody writes papers to share that knowledge, and even then, not everybody reads your papers. But the point is that if we took that time to really make that connection to somebody with a very different lived experience, somebody who doesn't look like you. The world would be so much better.

48:30 DR. PEARSON: Very, very well said. That's a perfect way to to wrap up. I want to definitely give people an opportunity to connect with AEESP. You can just go to AEESP.org  and you'll find a wealth of information there. We didn't even get a chance to talk about some of the stuff that I wanted to pull in. But there's a tab on the website.

48:53 DR. DUCOSTE: Well, I guess I'll have to be back on your show again.

48:56 DR. PEARSON: Maybe after the virtual appetizer event this summer. Maybe we can reconnect and talk about that and kind of do some pushes for the in person conference.

49:06 DR. DUCOSTE: And I will have to reciprocate. Lilia Abron and I will definitely invite you on our podcast, Environmental Conversations. I hope I'm allowed to plug that, but

49:23 DR. PEARSON: I actually had a little bullet. That was my next bullet to plug your podcast on here. And so, yeah, environmental conversations and folks can go to environmentalconversations.com. And I would absolutely love to join you. I would count that as such an honor. So you have my number.

49:44 DR. DUCOSTE: Yeah, we will definitely have that. That won't be a problem. You're on the list. You actually you have been on the list. We have a very long list of people we'd like to have that speak about what they do and their mission life and how that plays a role in environmental engineering and science space. And so we definitely are going to have you on the show and we can continue this conversation. I'm always grateful to come back as long as you're willing to have me. So that's not a problem, really.

50:16 DR. PEARSON: I appreciate that. So thank you so much for joining us today.

50:20 DR. DUCOSTE: Quite welcome. And I appreciate being on here and joining the mission that you're trying to do and spreading the wealth. I applaud you and I'm grateful for you.

50:33 DR. PEARSON: Well, thank you.

50:35 DR. PEARSON: Thank you for joining us today. Be sure to visit our website engineeringchangepodcast.com to connect with the people and resources we mentioned on the show. You can also leave a message on our contact page. If you have an idea for an episode or if you have a question, ask, and we'll be sure to get an answer for you on a future episode. Thank you again for listening. I'm glad you're here. And I'm looking forward to engineering change with you.

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